August 19, 2009 • 23 mins
Negative stereotypes about sororities abound, but are they deserved? Molly and Cristen explore the history, practices and reputation of modern sororities in this podcast from HowStuffWorks.com.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera.
It's ready. Are you welcome to stuff mom never told you?
From House Towards dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast.
This is Molly and I'm Kristen. Kristen. Every now and then,
(00:21):
even though I know I shouldn't do this, I look
at our reviews on iTunes, which usually are very different
than our list or mail. You know, people are our
listen of mails and as you know, fun stories, um
constructive criticism. We get all sorts of points of view,
words of encouragement, words of encouragement. But you know, on iTunes,
if people don't like you, they just let you know,
(00:42):
and it's just fine, pretty straightforward. They don't hold back.
Everyone's entiled to their opinion. But I've noticed that in
reading reviews, not just of our show, but other people
show that if you want to get across the point
that someone a girl hosting a show is not intelligent,
you call her a sorority bimbo. It's like an immediate,
(01:03):
somehow classification of lack of intelligence. Yeah, all you, it's
kind of the legally blonde thing. All you care about
our are your shoes and your looks and you're just
kind of talking out. We might yeah, we might say
like a few times. I mean, we know we do that.
It's off the cuff, but if we say it a lot,
that doesn't necessarily make we're sorority bimbos. So so you're
(01:26):
saying that there is a negative stereotype about sorority women. Yeah,
and they're intelligence. And so then we started thinking about
all these other stereotypes that are out there about sororities,
and so we want to answer the question do sorities
get a bad rap? So only I think the first
thing that we we have to address is whether or
not we were members of sororities. Okay, you go first, Molly,
(01:48):
I was not. I was what has sometimes been called
a g d I or a gosh darned independent, although
that's usually the lighter term used. And did you find
as a g d I you had certain perceptions of
what the authorities were like? Coming from my eighteen year
old mindset, I would say yes, I might not have
(02:10):
had the most patience with it I had. I went
to a very large college, there was a very lively
Greek system, and I lived in the dorm my freshman year.
And a lot of the girls um living with me
participated in rush and it kind of drove me insane.
So I you know, I probably I probably got off
on the wrong foot with sororities. Okay, I myself was
(02:33):
a member of a sorority, which usually surprised people when
they hear that about me. Um, but I sort of
started off at the same point of view that you did.
I was not planning on doing this when I went
off to college, but just happened to find girls that
I really liked and got along with, and so I
did it. I was probably not the most Uh. I
was probably not the best member of the sorority or
the social chair it was. It was not social chair.
(02:55):
But it was a really great opportunity for me to
get to meet people I would have met otherwise and
to do activities I would have never done otherwise. Um.
But I will say I was out at dinner the
other night with two of my friends who were also
in a sorority, and someone was asking us how we
all knew each other, and rather than proudly proclaiming that
we were sorority sisters, we said, well, we all went
to college together. Because I think that even though now
(03:18):
I'm out of college and away from all those sort
of stereotypes, I still was kind of afraid to say
or to to open myself up to that sort of
preconception of what a sorority girl was. Yeah, so even
people who are inside the system sometimes have to deal
with what the stereotype is. So let's dive right into it. Well,
the interesting thing for me, because I'm coming from an
(03:40):
outsider's perspective, I don't I didn't know much about sororities.
I had plenty of friends who were involved in sororities, Um,
I just wasn't. And uh, the cool thing to me
about how it all started was the first secret society
for women started in eighteen fifty one and making Georgia.
And that was the Adelphian Society, which now Alpha Delta Pie.
(04:02):
And what I like wondering about this is, um, their
their activities in this first society were praying, singing, and
writing and reciting poetry at their meetings. That was what
they got together to do. It sounds wild, sounds like
just sort of glorified coffee house in some way. Now,
the reason why this is kind of cool is that
these women started Viadelphian Society UM as a way for
(04:26):
them to be able to have intellectual and social companionship
with other women because at the time colleges were mostly
populated by men and there really wasn't much of an
outlet for women to express their opinion and really, uh
share their ideas and things like that. Yeah, it was
sort of a means of support because they were the
(04:46):
first women on campus. The men weren't treating them too nicely.
It was a time to get together and just really
let it all hang out. And uh, the Adelphian Society
was followed very quickly by other societies. Uh. They started
using the word sorority just or have these kind of
societies in eighteen eight two UM, and then in nineteen
o eight we had the first Greek organization for African
(05:07):
American women. And now those two are are somewhat separated
in terms of leadership. There are different Greek councils that
oversee both of them. And then following that, there have
been all sorts of sororities coming up to represent different
cultural interests, like there's an Asian American sorority, their Service sorority.
So now there's sort of different groupings for people of
different backgrounds. Yeah, and I remember when the last couple
(05:30):
of years that I was at college, UM, there were
a number of Latina sororities and fraternities that we're just
starting to take off as well. So it's kind of
interesting how it's become a larger and more diverse type
of thing, because I think when we're talking about whether
or not sororities get a bad rap, a lot of
it kind of goes back to that idea of, um,
(05:52):
you know, you're very stereotypical, white, upper class, very elitist organization.
So yesterday Christen emailed me and she was like, isn't
it cool that sorority started as these uh, you know,
female empowerment things in the midst of all this uh
male dominated university atmosphere, and now they're just segregated heterosexual
mating clubs and uh the g D I coming out.
(06:15):
And that was the point when I had to reveal
to her that I actually had been a member of
the so called heterosexual mating clubs. But you know, there's
a lot of labels you can put on it, that
they are elitist, that it is racist, that Foster's problems
like alcohol abuse, date rate, poor body image, needing disorders.
So we're gonna go through all of these controversies one
by one. I think that we should start out molly
(06:37):
with the this idea of whether or not sororities are
are racist, because to me, that is kind of one
of the strangest things about sororities, both white sororities, Black stories,
Latinas sororities. You know, they're all kind of racially divided.
It seems like you would choose to self segregate yourself
that way. It seems a little antiquated. There have been
(06:57):
headlines about black women trying to win white sorority some
facing discrimination. That was a famous case at the Mercy
of Georgia saying that sorority members are coming for and
saying that this one female had been rejected specifically because
she was black. And then in two thousand seven, UH,
the Delta Zeta chapter at DePaul University UH conducted a
(07:18):
membership review and they acted twenty two women from membership
because they were trying to get their numbers up and
they thought that these women were holding the sorority bag
and they just happened to kick out not only all
minority members of the sorority, but all overweight members of
the sorority as well, which caused a huge uproar, right,
(07:40):
and you know, the national group said, oh no, it
was just you know, we needed girls who really wanted
to help us recruit girls, and the more active girls
just happened that they were all the slender white ones. Um.
And then even in black sororities, there have been accusations
of them using brown paper bag tests um in the past.
Uh like if if if a girl was darker, if
(08:03):
her skin tone was darker than a brown paper bag,
they wouldn't let her in. Yeah, so apparents obviously huge factor.
And we often think about hazing. When you become a
new member, do you get haze? I think one of
the most famous examples of hazing is that you bring
a marker with you to your meeting and then the
older ones will draw circles on all the places in
(08:24):
which you should lose weight. So it brings about all
these things. We have to be the right skin tone,
you have to be the right size. You know, there
are all these horror stories about the sorority girls lining
up to you throw up, and I mean I never
saw any of this myself in my experience. Well and uh,
and as far as hazing goes, we don't hear about
hazing in sororities as much as we hear about fraternity
(08:47):
is because just from the anecdotal evidence that you hear from,
like the horror stories of girls being haze and stories,
a lot of it is more psychological abuse than physical abuse.
That that fraternities are more notorious for, like you said,
like making girls um, pointing out girls areas of fat
(09:08):
on their bodies and and things like that. But there
have also been accounts of uh, girls forcing new members
to binge drink, or making them do degrading tasks, or
telling making them tell painful secrets and uh and other
other horrible things. Yeah, and it's something that I think
(09:29):
that because it lands in the newspapers so often, because
someone dies, schools are now very, very sensitive to the
problem of hazing. This is the definition of hazing that's
used by a lot of schools. It's an action taken
or situation created as part of initiation to or continued
membership in a student organization which produces or could be
expected to produce mental or physical discomfort, harm, stress, embarrassment, harassment,
(09:53):
or ridicule, and so, like Kristin was saying, it's hard
to point to, you know, something that just kind of
is messing with your mind, as opposed to being forced
to binge strength for five hours. But I do think
that because it shows up in the headlines, it's just
you know, it's it's too sensitive for people even consider
doing it some schools. Right, Um, although there has been
I think we should point out even though we we
(10:15):
usually hear about, um, you know, the hazing gone wrong
stories with fraternities, there was two sorority pledges did die
in two thousand two. They were students at California State
University in Los Angeles, and they were pledging the Delta
Sigma THET Authority, and they blindfold the girls and took
them down to the beach, and it didn't seem like
they were really making them do anything that dangerous. They
(10:39):
were having them like walk into the water. But then
a huge wave came up and the two of the
girls were um kind of swept under and ended up drowning,
which is completely tragic, but I think it also goes
to show that, um, you know, it's not just a
boys game, right, it's not just a boys game. And
I think that's good to be aware of when you're
going into a sorority situation. Um, to know that might
(11:00):
be a little bit more psychological. Um. But you know,
in my experience, all of my new member education was
about making new friends and team buildings. So uh, like
I said, I just think that it's something that schools
are very sensitive about now, and I think that parents
are sensitive about it. And to the point that I
did have some storty sisters who asked if there was
gonna be any hazing because it was getting a little
(11:22):
little tame for them too, boring. Um, which brings us
pretty nicely into alcohol use. Um, that's something you often
hear about in relation to hazing. And uh. There's been
a lot of studies about Greeks and alcohol use, and
usually those studies will ask the question, do Greek organizations
make a person drink more? Or do the people who
(11:44):
want to drink a lot just join a Greek society
because they know that they can drink a lot. So
let's talk about alcohol. We we do know and um,
this is I'm studying this from a New York Times article,
but there have also been other studies that have um
come to the same conclusion. But Greek houses do have
the highest rates of bens drinking on college campuses. Yes,
(12:08):
makes sense. Greeks drink more frequently, more heavily, they show
more alcohol dependence symptoms, UM, They're more likely have abuse
of alcohol patterns. I'm getting this oftim a study in
the Psychology of Addictive Behaviors Journal. But like I said,
is it correlation, is it causation? We're not quite sure.
And the study I read did go on to say
that Greek status does not predict post college heavy drinking.
(12:30):
So it really does appear that people come in I
want to have a good time in college, but aren't
you know, taking their toga parties out into the real world. Well,
and to me, it would make sense that people in
a Greek house would drink more because let's say you're
like me, you stayed in the dorm your freshman year,
You're mostly surrounded by other people who are eighteen and
(12:50):
nineteen years old, Whereas if you were to join a sorority,
there's a greater chance that your big sister might be
older or have some easier way of curing alcohol. Just
seems like you would have more older friends and more
opportunities there for them to be alcohol around. Well, I
think that's somewhat true. I will say, Um, at the
school I went to, we didn't have sorority houses. You
(13:12):
really couldn't live with a sorority. But I understand that
those who do there are pretty strict rules about having
alcohol in the house. So yes, you might people to
go out with people or go to a party where
there's more alcohol. But I would say that I bet, um,
if you're in the house, you're probably not going to
have a lot of access to the alcohol. Yeah. Um,
but maybe that's just my my rose colored glasses spin
(13:33):
on it, Kristen. But I do think that the problem
when you start bringing up alcohol, particularly for women, is
if you get a lot of young, immature guys drunk,
then they might start acting in an untoward manner. Yeah,
for college women, college age women in general, UM, drinking
and boys are sometimes a bad a bad combination. Um.
(13:58):
Sexual assault on college campuses is a pretty rampant problem.
There's a pretty common statistic out there that one in
four college women are at least uh um victims of
at least attempted sexual assault. And then when we start
talking about the Greek system. There's there's a book called
Inside Greek You that came out a couple of years
(14:18):
ago and it's by Alan de Santis. And from a
survey that he did, UM, he found that seventy of
reported cases of gang rape occur at frat parties. And
the important thing there is reported cases. A lot of
a lot of sexual assault that goes on in college
campuses also goes unreported UM. And then he also found
that almost half of sorority women experienced some form of
(14:43):
sexual coercion and experienced attempted rape, and then seventeen percent
were victims of completed rape. So those are pretty terrifying.
Statistics are pretty terrifying. So so far, we've got the
fact that sororities might be racist, not really a great
situation for a woman. Uh, they might get hay psychologically,
(15:05):
they could drink too much, have a lot of health problems,
stuffer bad grades. And then you've got the possibility of
date rape, sexual abuse. And when you talk that all off, UM,
you know, getting back to Christian's heterosexual mating club, you
know there are a lot of formal state nights mixers UM.
So at least this perception that the serrity girls are
(15:26):
just there to find a husband. And in fact, there
was a study conducted by researchers researchers at the State
University of New York at Plattsburgh that found that Greek
students were more likely to buy into traditional gender stereotypes
of men being dominant and women being submissive, and that
really their top priority was a good heterosexual relationship. So
(15:49):
how can this antiquated viewpoint of womanhood ever be a
good choice. Well, there has been some research that shows
that having these uh kind of established groups of of
strorities and fraternities does help uh these young adults in
you know, eighteen to twenty two navigate through these early
(16:11):
years of um dating. You know, you have more established
ways to get to know some get to know people,
learn how to interact better with people of the opposite
sex UM And while these established institutions don't necessarily challenge
these traditional male female dynamics, it is a means of
(16:34):
support for a lot of kids. I think that's true,
and I think also one one point I mentioned to
Kristen is that that same sort of thing, uh, you know,
the desire for a heterosexual relationship above all else is
nothing more than what you find in a Saturday night
in a bar. Now, so it might, let Kristen said,
be sort of a good practice grounds for that. Um,
(16:55):
the question is our sororities so catty and so mean
that you even sort of establish any sense of womanhood?
I would disagree with that, Yeah, because there are lots
of opportunities for leadership. UM storties do a lot of
philanthropy work. They do a lot of organizing of fundraisers
and events, and they're all sorts of positions and posts
(17:17):
that members can take, and you meet so many people.
And I remember at my college a lot of the
people in the Greek system who are very active in
the Greek system were also very active in student government. UM.
They seem like the ones who were the contributed the
most to those aspects of their stories and fraternities were
(17:37):
kind of just the go getters, you know, who could
probably be very good role models for younger students coming in. Yeah.
I think there have been stays that show that Greek
students do tend to be more involved all over campus.
They usually have to meet a certain g p A,
so it's not like you're just allowed to party all
the time and have your grade slide. Uh, and that's good.
I would just say from my own personal experience, it
was nice to walk into any class on campus and
(17:58):
know someone because you met them through your sorority. Um.
And I know that's how a lot of people find
their first job. So, like you're saying, really good networking
is there. Um, And I do think it's what you
make of it. We obviously are talking about kind of
extreme examples of things leveled at sorority's tends to make
headlines when things go bad as opposed to when things
(18:19):
go good. Um, So it's what you make of it.
Probably depends where you are in school. But we did
find this really interesting example of a sorority at Trinity
College in Hartford. Yes, this sorority is labeling itself as
a feminist sorority, which might seem like an oxymoron at
first glance, but what they're doing, it's a it's multi racial,
(18:43):
and they even have two male members at the time
that it was written. And uh, they're basically trying to
kind of redefine what a sorority is. Yeah. One quote
I really liked is that they wanted to reclaim the
word sority. In the same way that many feminists feel
the word femine. This needs to be reclaimed. You know,
people have all these stereotypes that we've talked about what
(19:04):
feminism is, and so they wanted to show that the
in the same way the word sorority really could mean
a band of people working together to support each other. Right,
And that kind of reflects the entire history of how
sororities were founded because um, women decided to start calling
themselves sororities instead of fraternities, because they wanted to differentiate
(19:24):
themselves as a sisterhood of women. Right. So, Molly, we've
got some high points now and some low low points,
and some pretty low points. So where does that leave
us with this question of whether or not sororities get
a bad rap? You know, probably any stereotype is a
bad rap. I think when you throw the word bimbo
(19:45):
after sorority, that's a pretty incorrect thing to say. Um,
so I'm going to go behind every generalization is bad. Well,
and another thing to think about is I think if
you ask any girl who has been a member of
a sorority, you're going to get a for an answer
from every one of them. You know, some people loved it,
some people hate it. Some people like you, liked it
(20:05):
for two years and then didn't like it for the
two years or just got really busy or just or
just really busy of course, Molly, Um, But I think
it's just like you said another you know, one of
those things that's going to be unique for everyone. But
I think there is a lot to the girls should
take into account before they decide to whether or not
they're going to rush, because there is there's a lot
(20:28):
that goes into it. There are a lot of social
dynamics at work and a lot of things that women
need to be smart about in general. That's true. So
on that optimistic note, do you want to do some
listener mail? Yes, I'd love to do some listener mail, Molly.
Why don't we change gears for a minute and talk
(20:48):
about Amy's booklist? So far as summer, Amy is reading
the entire Robot series and Foundation series from Isaac Asthma,
and then she has read all of the year like
homes she can get her hands on. Then she started
reading Agatha Christie uh, and she's read a bunch of
other stuff. And on top of reading all of this,
(21:09):
she is a big fan of video games. She plays
World of Warcraft, which is hooked up to her computer
that is hooked up to a fifty one inch TV
with surround sound and wireless mouse and keyboard, which sounds
pretty awesome. And she just started playing a rereleased revamped
version of the original Monkey Island. And she also plays
(21:32):
around on her PS two PSP games on her iPod
iPhone and even Facebook games like Mafia Wars. And then
on top of all of her book reading, game playing
and podcast listening and full time job, she also throws parties,
goes to parties, ghost movies, goes out to eat, and
takes vacations as much as possible, and tends to her garden.
(21:54):
And when I wrote Amy back, I told her that
if there was a Mom's Stuff gold Star of woman Excellence,
well Roundedness, well Roundedness, Renaissance, gal Amy, you would get it. Yeah,
that is a It's a pretty pretty impressive list of activities,
books and video game It makes me feel very lazy.
(22:16):
But we're not that lazy, Molly, because you and I
have a blog do we do? It's called how to
Stuff and you should check it out. It's on how
stuff works dot com. And if you have any thoughts
on sororities. If you are in a strority or a
fraternity and would like to give us your insight on it,
feel free to email me or Molly at mom stuff
(22:37):
at how stuff works dot com. And and you can
also read How Sororities Work by Katie Lambert, star of
Stuffiness and History Class podcast. And that article is on
how stuff works dot com. For more on this and
thousands of other topics, is that how stuff works dot com. Yeah,
(23:03):
brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camry.
It's ready, are you
Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera.
It's ready. Are you welcome to stuff mom never told you?
From House Towards dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast.
This is Molly and I'm Kristen. Kristen. Every now and then,
(00:21):
even though I know I shouldn't do this, I look
at our reviews on iTunes, which usually are very different
than our list or mail. You know, people are our
listen of mails and as you know, fun stories, um
constructive criticism. We get all sorts of points of view,
words of encouragement, words of encouragement. But you know, on iTunes,
if people don't like you, they just let you know,
(00:42):
and it's just fine, pretty straightforward. They don't hold back.
Everyone's entiled to their opinion. But I've noticed that in
reading reviews, not just of our show, but other people
show that if you want to get across the point
that someone a girl hosting a show is not intelligent,
you call her a sorority bimbo. It's like an immediate,
(01:03):
somehow classification of lack of intelligence. Yeah, all you, it's
kind of the legally blonde thing. All you care about
our are your shoes and your looks and you're just
kind of talking out. We might yeah, we might say
like a few times. I mean, we know we do that.
It's off the cuff, but if we say it a lot,
that doesn't necessarily make we're sorority bimbos. So so you're
(01:26):
saying that there is a negative stereotype about sorority women. Yeah,
and they're intelligence. And so then we started thinking about
all these other stereotypes that are out there about sororities,
and so we want to answer the question do sorities
get a bad rap? So only I think the first
thing that we we have to address is whether or
not we were members of sororities. Okay, you go first, Molly,
(01:48):
I was not. I was what has sometimes been called
a g d I or a gosh darned independent, although
that's usually the lighter term used. And did you find
as a g d I you had certain perceptions of
what the authorities were like? Coming from my eighteen year
old mindset, I would say yes, I might not have
(02:10):
had the most patience with it I had. I went
to a very large college, there was a very lively
Greek system, and I lived in the dorm my freshman year.
And a lot of the girls um living with me
participated in rush and it kind of drove me insane.
So I you know, I probably I probably got off
on the wrong foot with sororities. Okay, I myself was
(02:33):
a member of a sorority, which usually surprised people when
they hear that about me. Um, but I sort of
started off at the same point of view that you did.
I was not planning on doing this when I went
off to college, but just happened to find girls that
I really liked and got along with, and so I
did it. I was probably not the most Uh. I
was probably not the best member of the sorority or
the social chair it was. It was not social chair.
(02:55):
But it was a really great opportunity for me to
get to meet people I would have met otherwise and
to do activities I would have never done otherwise. Um.
But I will say I was out at dinner the
other night with two of my friends who were also
in a sorority, and someone was asking us how we
all knew each other, and rather than proudly proclaiming that
we were sorority sisters, we said, well, we all went
to college together. Because I think that even though now
(03:18):
I'm out of college and away from all those sort
of stereotypes, I still was kind of afraid to say
or to to open myself up to that sort of
preconception of what a sorority girl was. Yeah, so even
people who are inside the system sometimes have to deal
with what the stereotype is. So let's dive right into it. Well,
the interesting thing for me, because I'm coming from an
(03:40):
outsider's perspective, I don't I didn't know much about sororities.
I had plenty of friends who were involved in sororities, Um,
I just wasn't. And uh, the cool thing to me
about how it all started was the first secret society
for women started in eighteen fifty one and making Georgia.
And that was the Adelphian Society, which now Alpha Delta Pie.
(04:02):
And what I like wondering about this is, um, their
their activities in this first society were praying, singing, and
writing and reciting poetry at their meetings. That was what
they got together to do. It sounds wild, sounds like
just sort of glorified coffee house in some way. Now,
the reason why this is kind of cool is that
these women started Viadelphian Society UM as a way for
(04:26):
them to be able to have intellectual and social companionship
with other women because at the time colleges were mostly
populated by men and there really wasn't much of an
outlet for women to express their opinion and really, uh
share their ideas and things like that. Yeah, it was
sort of a means of support because they were the
(04:46):
first women on campus. The men weren't treating them too nicely.
It was a time to get together and just really
let it all hang out. And uh, the Adelphian Society
was followed very quickly by other societies. Uh. They started
using the word sorority just or have these kind of
societies in eighteen eight two UM, and then in nineteen
o eight we had the first Greek organization for African
(05:07):
American women. And now those two are are somewhat separated
in terms of leadership. There are different Greek councils that
oversee both of them. And then following that, there have
been all sorts of sororities coming up to represent different
cultural interests, like there's an Asian American sorority, their Service sorority.
So now there's sort of different groupings for people of
different backgrounds. Yeah, and I remember when the last couple
(05:30):
of years that I was at college, UM, there were
a number of Latina sororities and fraternities that we're just
starting to take off as well. So it's kind of
interesting how it's become a larger and more diverse type
of thing, because I think when we're talking about whether
or not sororities get a bad rap, a lot of
it kind of goes back to that idea of, um,
(05:52):
you know, you're very stereotypical, white, upper class, very elitist organization.
So yesterday Christen emailed me and she was like, isn't
it cool that sorority started as these uh, you know,
female empowerment things in the midst of all this uh
male dominated university atmosphere, and now they're just segregated heterosexual
mating clubs and uh the g D I coming out.
(06:15):
And that was the point when I had to reveal
to her that I actually had been a member of
the so called heterosexual mating clubs. But you know, there's
a lot of labels you can put on it, that
they are elitist, that it is racist, that Foster's problems
like alcohol abuse, date rate, poor body image, needing disorders.
So we're gonna go through all of these controversies one
by one. I think that we should start out molly
(06:37):
with the this idea of whether or not sororities are
are racist, because to me, that is kind of one
of the strangest things about sororities, both white sororities, Black stories,
Latinas sororities. You know, they're all kind of racially divided.
It seems like you would choose to self segregate yourself
that way. It seems a little antiquated. There have been
(06:57):
headlines about black women trying to win white sorority some
facing discrimination. That was a famous case at the Mercy
of Georgia saying that sorority members are coming for and
saying that this one female had been rejected specifically because
she was black. And then in two thousand seven, UH,
the Delta Zeta chapter at DePaul University UH conducted a
(07:18):
membership review and they acted twenty two women from membership
because they were trying to get their numbers up and
they thought that these women were holding the sorority bag
and they just happened to kick out not only all
minority members of the sorority, but all overweight members of
the sorority as well, which caused a huge uproar, right,
(07:40):
and you know, the national group said, oh no, it
was just you know, we needed girls who really wanted
to help us recruit girls, and the more active girls
just happened that they were all the slender white ones. Um.
And then even in black sororities, there have been accusations
of them using brown paper bag tests um in the past.
Uh like if if if a girl was darker, if
(08:03):
her skin tone was darker than a brown paper bag,
they wouldn't let her in. Yeah, so apparents obviously huge factor.
And we often think about hazing. When you become a
new member, do you get haze? I think one of
the most famous examples of hazing is that you bring
a marker with you to your meeting and then the
older ones will draw circles on all the places in
(08:24):
which you should lose weight. So it brings about all
these things. We have to be the right skin tone,
you have to be the right size. You know, there
are all these horror stories about the sorority girls lining
up to you throw up, and I mean I never
saw any of this myself in my experience. Well and uh,
and as far as hazing goes, we don't hear about
hazing in sororities as much as we hear about fraternity
(08:47):
is because just from the anecdotal evidence that you hear from,
like the horror stories of girls being haze and stories,
a lot of it is more psychological abuse than physical abuse.
That that fraternities are more notorious for, like you said,
like making girls um, pointing out girls areas of fat
(09:08):
on their bodies and and things like that. But there
have also been accounts of uh, girls forcing new members
to binge drink, or making them do degrading tasks, or
telling making them tell painful secrets and uh and other
other horrible things. Yeah, and it's something that I think
(09:29):
that because it lands in the newspapers so often, because
someone dies, schools are now very, very sensitive to the
problem of hazing. This is the definition of hazing that's
used by a lot of schools. It's an action taken
or situation created as part of initiation to or continued
membership in a student organization which produces or could be
expected to produce mental or physical discomfort, harm, stress, embarrassment, harassment,
(09:53):
or ridicule, and so, like Kristin was saying, it's hard
to point to, you know, something that just kind of
is messing with your mind, as opposed to being forced
to binge strength for five hours. But I do think
that because it shows up in the headlines, it's just
you know, it's it's too sensitive for people even consider
doing it some schools. Right, Um, although there has been
I think we should point out even though we we
(10:15):
usually hear about, um, you know, the hazing gone wrong
stories with fraternities, there was two sorority pledges did die
in two thousand two. They were students at California State
University in Los Angeles, and they were pledging the Delta
Sigma THET Authority, and they blindfold the girls and took
them down to the beach, and it didn't seem like
they were really making them do anything that dangerous. They
(10:39):
were having them like walk into the water. But then
a huge wave came up and the two of the
girls were um kind of swept under and ended up drowning,
which is completely tragic, but I think it also goes
to show that, um, you know, it's not just a
boys game, right, it's not just a boys game. And
I think that's good to be aware of when you're
going into a sorority situation. Um, to know that might
(11:00):
be a little bit more psychological. Um. But you know,
in my experience, all of my new member education was
about making new friends and team buildings. So uh, like
I said, I just think that it's something that schools
are very sensitive about now, and I think that parents
are sensitive about it. And to the point that I
did have some storty sisters who asked if there was
gonna be any hazing because it was getting a little
(11:22):
little tame for them too, boring. Um, which brings us
pretty nicely into alcohol use. Um, that's something you often
hear about in relation to hazing. And uh. There's been
a lot of studies about Greeks and alcohol use, and
usually those studies will ask the question, do Greek organizations
make a person drink more? Or do the people who
(11:44):
want to drink a lot just join a Greek society
because they know that they can drink a lot. So
let's talk about alcohol. We we do know and um,
this is I'm studying this from a New York Times article,
but there have also been other studies that have um
come to the same conclusion. But Greek houses do have
the highest rates of bens drinking on college campuses. Yes,
(12:08):
makes sense. Greeks drink more frequently, more heavily, they show
more alcohol dependence symptoms, UM, They're more likely have abuse
of alcohol patterns. I'm getting this oftim a study in
the Psychology of Addictive Behaviors Journal. But like I said,
is it correlation, is it causation? We're not quite sure.
And the study I read did go on to say
that Greek status does not predict post college heavy drinking.
(12:30):
So it really does appear that people come in I
want to have a good time in college, but aren't
you know, taking their toga parties out into the real world. Well,
and to me, it would make sense that people in
a Greek house would drink more because let's say you're
like me, you stayed in the dorm your freshman year,
You're mostly surrounded by other people who are eighteen and
(12:50):
nineteen years old, Whereas if you were to join a sorority,
there's a greater chance that your big sister might be
older or have some easier way of curing alcohol. Just
seems like you would have more older friends and more
opportunities there for them to be alcohol around. Well, I
think that's somewhat true. I will say, Um, at the
school I went to, we didn't have sorority houses. You
(13:12):
really couldn't live with a sorority. But I understand that
those who do there are pretty strict rules about having
alcohol in the house. So yes, you might people to
go out with people or go to a party where
there's more alcohol. But I would say that I bet, um,
if you're in the house, you're probably not going to
have a lot of access to the alcohol. Yeah. Um,
but maybe that's just my my rose colored glasses spin
(13:33):
on it, Kristen. But I do think that the problem
when you start bringing up alcohol, particularly for women, is
if you get a lot of young, immature guys drunk,
then they might start acting in an untoward manner. Yeah,
for college women, college age women in general, UM, drinking
and boys are sometimes a bad a bad combination. Um.
(13:58):
Sexual assault on college campuses is a pretty rampant problem.
There's a pretty common statistic out there that one in
four college women are at least uh um victims of
at least attempted sexual assault. And then when we start
talking about the Greek system. There's there's a book called
Inside Greek You that came out a couple of years
(14:18):
ago and it's by Alan de Santis. And from a
survey that he did, UM, he found that seventy of
reported cases of gang rape occur at frat parties. And
the important thing there is reported cases. A lot of
a lot of sexual assault that goes on in college
campuses also goes unreported UM. And then he also found
that almost half of sorority women experienced some form of
(14:43):
sexual coercion and experienced attempted rape, and then seventeen percent
were victims of completed rape. So those are pretty terrifying.
Statistics are pretty terrifying. So so far, we've got the
fact that sororities might be racist, not really a great
situation for a woman. Uh, they might get hay psychologically,
(15:05):
they could drink too much, have a lot of health problems,
stuffer bad grades. And then you've got the possibility of
date rape, sexual abuse. And when you talk that all off, UM,
you know, getting back to Christian's heterosexual mating club, you
know there are a lot of formal state nights mixers UM.
So at least this perception that the serrity girls are
(15:26):
just there to find a husband. And in fact, there
was a study conducted by researchers researchers at the State
University of New York at Plattsburgh that found that Greek
students were more likely to buy into traditional gender stereotypes
of men being dominant and women being submissive, and that
really their top priority was a good heterosexual relationship. So
(15:49):
how can this antiquated viewpoint of womanhood ever be a
good choice. Well, there has been some research that shows
that having these uh kind of established groups of of
strorities and fraternities does help uh these young adults in
you know, eighteen to twenty two navigate through these early
(16:11):
years of um dating. You know, you have more established
ways to get to know some get to know people,
learn how to interact better with people of the opposite
sex UM And while these established institutions don't necessarily challenge
these traditional male female dynamics, it is a means of
(16:34):
support for a lot of kids. I think that's true,
and I think also one one point I mentioned to
Kristen is that that same sort of thing, uh, you know,
the desire for a heterosexual relationship above all else is
nothing more than what you find in a Saturday night
in a bar. Now, so it might, let Kristen said,
be sort of a good practice grounds for that. Um,
(16:55):
the question is our sororities so catty and so mean
that you even sort of establish any sense of womanhood?
I would disagree with that, Yeah, because there are lots
of opportunities for leadership. UM storties do a lot of
philanthropy work. They do a lot of organizing of fundraisers
and events, and they're all sorts of positions and posts
(17:17):
that members can take, and you meet so many people.
And I remember at my college a lot of the
people in the Greek system who are very active in
the Greek system were also very active in student government. UM.
They seem like the ones who were the contributed the
most to those aspects of their stories and fraternities were
(17:37):
kind of just the go getters, you know, who could
probably be very good role models for younger students coming in. Yeah.
I think there have been stays that show that Greek
students do tend to be more involved all over campus.
They usually have to meet a certain g p A,
so it's not like you're just allowed to party all
the time and have your grade slide. Uh, and that's good.
I would just say from my own personal experience, it
was nice to walk into any class on campus and
(17:58):
know someone because you met them through your sorority. Um.
And I know that's how a lot of people find
their first job. So, like you're saying, really good networking
is there. Um, And I do think it's what you
make of it. We obviously are talking about kind of
extreme examples of things leveled at sorority's tends to make
headlines when things go bad as opposed to when things
(18:19):
go good. Um, So it's what you make of it.
Probably depends where you are in school. But we did
find this really interesting example of a sorority at Trinity
College in Hartford. Yes, this sorority is labeling itself as
a feminist sorority, which might seem like an oxymoron at
first glance, but what they're doing, it's a it's multi racial,
(18:43):
and they even have two male members at the time
that it was written. And uh, they're basically trying to
kind of redefine what a sorority is. Yeah. One quote
I really liked is that they wanted to reclaim the
word sority. In the same way that many feminists feel
the word femine. This needs to be reclaimed. You know,
people have all these stereotypes that we've talked about what
(19:04):
feminism is, and so they wanted to show that the
in the same way the word sorority really could mean
a band of people working together to support each other. Right,
And that kind of reflects the entire history of how
sororities were founded because um, women decided to start calling
themselves sororities instead of fraternities, because they wanted to differentiate
(19:24):
themselves as a sisterhood of women. Right. So, Molly, we've
got some high points now and some low low points,
and some pretty low points. So where does that leave
us with this question of whether or not sororities get
a bad rap? You know, probably any stereotype is a
bad rap. I think when you throw the word bimbo
(19:45):
after sorority, that's a pretty incorrect thing to say. Um,
so I'm going to go behind every generalization is bad. Well,
and another thing to think about is I think if
you ask any girl who has been a member of
a sorority, you're going to get a for an answer
from every one of them. You know, some people loved it,
some people hate it. Some people like you, liked it
(20:05):
for two years and then didn't like it for the
two years or just got really busy or just or
just really busy of course, Molly, Um, But I think
it's just like you said another you know, one of
those things that's going to be unique for everyone. But
I think there is a lot to the girls should
take into account before they decide to whether or not
they're going to rush, because there is there's a lot
(20:28):
that goes into it. There are a lot of social
dynamics at work and a lot of things that women
need to be smart about in general. That's true. So
on that optimistic note, do you want to do some
listener mail? Yes, I'd love to do some listener mail, Molly.
Why don't we change gears for a minute and talk
(20:48):
about Amy's booklist? So far as summer, Amy is reading
the entire Robot series and Foundation series from Isaac Asthma,
and then she has read all of the year like
homes she can get her hands on. Then she started
reading Agatha Christie uh, and she's read a bunch of
other stuff. And on top of reading all of this,
(21:09):
she is a big fan of video games. She plays
World of Warcraft, which is hooked up to her computer
that is hooked up to a fifty one inch TV
with surround sound and wireless mouse and keyboard, which sounds
pretty awesome. And she just started playing a rereleased revamped
version of the original Monkey Island. And she also plays
(21:32):
around on her PS two PSP games on her iPod
iPhone and even Facebook games like Mafia Wars. And then
on top of all of her book reading, game playing
and podcast listening and full time job, she also throws parties,
goes to parties, ghost movies, goes out to eat, and
takes vacations as much as possible, and tends to her garden.
(21:54):
And when I wrote Amy back, I told her that
if there was a Mom's Stuff gold Star of woman Excellence,
well Roundedness, well Roundedness, Renaissance, gal Amy, you would get it. Yeah,
that is a It's a pretty pretty impressive list of activities,
books and video game It makes me feel very lazy.
(22:16):
But we're not that lazy, Molly, because you and I
have a blog do we do? It's called how to
Stuff and you should check it out. It's on how
stuff works dot com. And if you have any thoughts
on sororities. If you are in a strority or a
fraternity and would like to give us your insight on it,
feel free to email me or Molly at mom stuff
(22:37):
at how stuff works dot com. And and you can
also read How Sororities Work by Katie Lambert, star of
Stuffiness and History Class podcast. And that article is on
how stuff works dot com. For more on this and
thousands of other topics, is that how stuff works dot com. Yeah,
(23:03):
brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camry.
It's ready, are you
Stuff Mom Never Told You News
Hosts And Creators
Anney Reese
Samantha McVey
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.