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November 25, 2013 • 30 mins

Hollywood icon John Wayne once said, "Never apologize. It's a sign of weakness." Is that masculine advice why it's thought that women tend to apologize more than men? Caroline and Cristen examine how men and women say "I'm sorry," and myth-bust the stereotype of women as the sorrier sex.

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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how stupp
Works dot com. Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm
Kristen and I'm Caroline, and Caroline, I gotta be honest
with you. Sometimes I suggest podcast topics specifically because they

(00:24):
apply to my life and it gives me an excuse
to get some greater insight into why I do certain things.
I'm not talking about the douching episode. I'm talking about apologizing.
I have a verbal tic, and it is saying I'm sorry,

(00:45):
but it's good to apologize, right, Not when I haven't
actually done anything wrong. What are you apologizing for? I'm
apologizing for things that happened to other people. I'm apologizing
for just saying something that I might be interrupting. Perhaps
I'm apologizing for really anything, just doing the preface of

(01:10):
I'm sorry, but oh, I'm sorry. If if I feel
like I have done anything at all that's not entirely perfect,
I might just say I'm sorry. And it's something that
speaking of stuff Mom Never Told You, it is something
that my mom, I know, does a lot, because ironically
it's a pet peeve of mine when she'll toss out

(01:33):
and I'm sorry if I'm talking to her about something
that I'm frustrated with, and she responds, oh, I'm sorry,
and I say it hadn't happen to you, and then
she said, well, I'm sorry for saying that, and then
we get into this tumble weed of apologies. So we
got to sort me out. Yeah, no, I I when

(01:56):
you suggested this, I was thinking about it, and and I'm thinking, like,
you know, you just mentioned and interrupting or just like
even approaching someone in conversation and apologizing. And I don't
know that I do that so much, but I guess,
you know, honestly, like this has made me want to
listen to myself more closely, because usually when we do

(02:16):
topics like this, and I'm like, I never do that,
and then I, you know, I go home later that
day and I'm like, oh man, I've done that seventeen times.
I've been catching myself doing it so much that whereas
some people set up a swear jar, I would like
to set up an apology jar, a pointless apology jar,
because sometimes you need to apologize, but when it gets

(02:38):
to the point of being this verbal tick, I it
irks me because I know I shouldn't be apologizing. I
wonder if I should take more of the John Wayne
stands who once said, never apologize, it's a sign of weakness,
and that's the closest I can get to a John Wayne.
I sure, I think, um, I think that's not true.

(03:01):
I think it's not a sign of weakness when you
mean it when it's called for. And I don't know
that I would even say that your unnecessary apologies are
a sign of weakness. I I think that you are
a very polite person and you don't want to come
off as like being, you know, an interrupter. Well, well,
let's let's dial things back and take me out from

(03:23):
under the microscope and do a broad brush of all
of the many apology gender stereotypes, because you already tossed
out one, which is that women apologize more. And then
there's that men don't want to admit that they're wrong.
We assume that men avoid apologizing because of the whole
John Wayne thing because they think it's a sign of weakness.

(03:45):
And then, you know, speaking about women, just the idea
that we're we're to contrite and that we're just generally
more courteous than men are, and that we're making people
mad when we speak up, yeah, or just kind of
doing anything sometimes, And many researchers have said that women
indeed apologize more often. There is in nine study that's

(04:08):
often cited in apology Literature UM, which was one of
the seminal papers that came out saying yes, indeed, women
apologize more, but the methodology is a little iffy because
essentially they had a team of research assistants keep an
apology diary, and it turns out that the women research

(04:31):
assistance documented of the apologies during this given time, but
most of the research assistance were women to begin with,
so you didn't have exactly an equal pool, right. And
then there's linguist Deborah Tannin who was also often cited
in apology research, and she kind of uses more of

(04:53):
an anecdotal approach, saying that you know, more women do this,
more women want apologies, and more women offer apologies. Yeah,
And I do though anecdotally speaking by her theory that
women will use apologies in the same way that I'm
talking about, as almost a verbal reflex, in a way
that men might not or might not as much. And

(05:14):
she calls this our ritual way of restoring balance to
a conversation and I can totally see that in scenarios
when my mom kindheartedly responds I'm sorry when I say,
you know something that has happened that isn't happy, right,
And I mean, I think in that verbal reflex kind

(05:35):
of way, if you're looking at it that way, again,
it's it's it's something you know you're talking about wanting
to overcome. But it's also another way I think of
just saying I'm not better than you. I'm not trying
to make you feel, you know, subordinate or less than
you know. I'm not trying to trample on you. It's
just it's the type of verbal tick that you employ well.

(05:59):
And it could also have something to do more with
female to female communication because another linguist named Janet Holmes
also says that women, yes, do a bulk of the apologizing,
but we also do a bulk of the apology receiving,
and that when we apologize, we often do so two
women more often than to men. And I think that's

(06:20):
interesting and I think that's a great like you segue
into what we will be talking about, which is the
gender more of the gender division and what men expect
versus what women expect, because you know, if if women
are both giving more apologies and expecting more apologies, I mean,
what what is that saying? That's that's saying something? Yeah?
What does that say about the value of the apology?

(06:41):
Because I also feel like if I'm constantly saying I'm
sorry just for day to day kinds of things, when
I really truly screw up and need to say I'm sorry,
has the value of mine I'm sorry been diminished? If
that makes sense because of my constant pologizing. I would

(07:01):
I mean, I wouldn't. I wouldn't think so well, Physiologically speaking,
me apologizing to a woman might have more of a
relieving or calming effect, at least according to this study
from two thousand nine that was published in the Journal
of Behavioral Medicine. Yeah. The study found that physiologically, women
respond more to apologies. Their blood pressure and heart rate

(07:24):
variability levels returned to normal more quickly if they received
an apology immediately following a verbal attack, but this was
not true for men, and the reason that men might
not experience that same physiological reaction to apologies can perhaps
be gleaned from a two thousand and ten study from

(07:45):
the University of Waterloo that changed our conversation about this
gender divide or whether there really is one in apologies.
So we had just been talking about sort of anecdotal
evids that women apologize more, that it's more of a
verbal tick for us, and that men and women have

(08:06):
different perceptions of what apologies mean and their significance. But
then in two thousand ten, this study came out of
the University of Waterloo, and I got a ton of
press because the searchers said, in fact, women don't apologize
more than men. Nope, when you break it down, proportionally,

(08:26):
women and men apologize the same rate. And so how
they came to this conclusion is they did two separate studies,
and the first study looked at gender differences in the
frequency and the prompting of apologies, and indeed, women did
report dolling out and receiving more apologies than men. And
women were also more likely, fun fact, to apologize to

(08:47):
a romantic partner. Not that I don't do that all
the time to my boyfriend. Well yeah, in this in
this first study, women also reported committing more offenses. So
I wonder if they're more sensitive to what they're not
more sensitive meaning that men aren't sensitive. But I wonder
if they're more like, oh my god, I've done something terrible,
when in fact the other party has not considered it

(09:08):
to be terrible, Caroline. That's exactly the case. When they
went in and did a follow up study looking at well,
why are they apologizing more? Why are they reporting more apologies,
they found that women were more likely to judge an
offense as apology worthy, regardless of the victims gender. So,

(09:31):
when they broke down the numbers and looked at the
apologies doled out and the types of apologies given, whether
it was just like a cursory I'm sorry, or an
I did this and I understand that you feel this
way and I'm very sorry and I promised to not
do that again, they found that the gender differences were
completely erased in terms of apology per offense. It's just

(09:55):
that women felt like they were doing more things that
does served apologies. Interesting. Yeah, once once men and women
see things as offensive, they're both equally likely to apologize.
So so, you know, I think that says a lot
about these stereotypes of women, is like the submissive apologize

(10:18):
er smoothing the waters, you know, and men being like
these brutes who don't care, right, And it was also
fascinating to see how they found no gender differences also
in the manner in which men and women delivered apologies,
which also debunks the stereotype about men just not wanting
to admit they're wrong, or maybe if they're forced to,
might mumble out and I'm sorry. No, if we feel

(10:39):
like we've done something wrong, we're equally likely to apologize.
So the question then is why do women have a
lower threshold for offense? And if that's the case, then
perhaps that's why in that two thousand nine study that
we referenced before the break, women have a stronger physiological
reaction to receiving an apology. Now that's me tying together

(11:04):
on my own stands rigorous methodology to separate conclusions, but
I wonder if they aren't related. Though. Yeah, it's funny
as we're going over this to think about dude roommate
and me, and how like there are so many times
when I've been like, we need to talk and he
won't even realize that, you know, like I will think

(11:27):
he's mad at me, or I'll be mad at him
and he won't even realize. And he's told me more
than once you know, like, I think you're thinking more
about this than I am, and it's like, oh, well, okay,
it's it's good too. I'm I'm the one who's more
likely to be like, can we talk, I want an
apology or I owe you an apology, And he's more
likely to be like, I don't even know what you're

(11:49):
talking about. Well, and and theorists might say that, well,
that might boil down to in conflict situations, men's evolutionary
tendencies to fight or light and women's evolutionary tendencies to
tend and befriend. So maybe we are instinctively considering the
relationship a little bit more. But that study doesn't answer

(12:13):
the question of what's up with the verbal tick of
I'm sorry what Debra Tannin called that ritual way of
restoring balance to a conversation, because that doesn't have so
much to do with feeling like you've committed an offense
and need to make up for it. This is just
about just saying those two words as a way to

(12:34):
a conversation together in a way. Yeah, I mean, I
think you know if you tell me like, oh, I
had a terrible day and I lost my bag and
I did this, uh blab, people were rude to me,
I might say I'm sorry, you know, And and that's
that's me just expressing sympathy and trying to to sympathize
and empathize with you, to let you know that I'm listening. Yeah. Um.

(12:55):
And in the book I Was Wrong The Meaning of
Apologies by Nick Smith, he looked into this gendered aspect
of apologies and sites Sandra bark Skis phenomenology of gendered
emotions and and she argues that women actually experience more shame,
and so perhaps if that is the case, then we

(13:18):
are more likely to use that apologetical language. Yeah, and
and and looking at this like reading her definition of shame,
she says, it's a species of psychic distress occasion by
a self or a state of the self apprehended as inferior, defective,
or in some way diminished. Reading that, you know, I'm
sitting here saying, well, you know, I don't necessarily apologize

(13:41):
very much, like I just stick to when it's really
when I've offended someone. No, I mean, I do like
thinking about the way that like I might approach you
for a big favor or something along those lines, and
I will like, literally, I feel like sometimes make myself
physically smaller and be like, oh, Christen, I'm sorry, could
you I hate to do this, but you know, things

(14:03):
like that, prefacing what I need or or want from
someone else with like, oh, I hate to put you
out exactly. I can tell when I'm on a tear
of I'm sorries, that I'm feeling insecure, that it's coming
out of a place of uncertainty and maybe some anxiety,
And it's almost like a self soothing measure to do that.

(14:26):
And it's all about in a way status, which came
up in the study on apologies in the workplace and
it came out in June and it was called me.
It was called do you really Expect Me to apologize?
The impact of status and gender on the effectiveness of
an apology in the workplace, And it found that the

(14:47):
most effective apologies come from people of higher status. So
if you get an apology from your manager, you know
it's the real deal. A lot of times that makes
you feel a lot are rather than one of us
having to apologize to one of our managers. Apologizing up
usually does much less, I feel like than getting the

(15:09):
apology from on high well, it's interesting that you used
the words status and higher status because the same also
applies for apologies from men. Yeah. They found that, in
addition to apologies from managers feeling quite significant and effective,
those that come from men and that are delivered to
women are also considered the most effective apologies because the

(15:32):
researchers think that it's all about expectations. The less we
expect an apology, the more significant it feels when we
actually get it right. And because of the gender stereotypes
around apologies, we don't expect men to be forthcoming with
and I'm sorry, so that when they apologize to us,
we're like, oh my, okay, no problem. Here are some

(15:54):
muffins I made. I'm sorry if you don't like them,
it's perfect. Yeah, it's really it's kind of amazing to
think how an apology can just smooth things over so
much when it's when it's genuine exactly, but with that
status issue, that was one reason why. Over at Jezebel,
Karen pole Wadzi says that women need to stop with

(16:16):
the apologizing, especially that kind of verbal tick, because she
argues that it just undercuts our status over and over again.
She says, I think it's that women are expected to
be exceptionally grateful for the crumbs tossed our way, and
so we show our gratitude by cushioning our wants with
a series of I know this is asking a lot,
but I hate to ask. But I might sound like

(16:37):
an idiot for wondering but kinds of things, and all
of that is tied into, obviously, the constant apologizing. I
agree with her on the level that UM constantly being
like Kristen, would I'm sorry, but would you mind? Like?
I understand that that is very undercutting UM, but I
think it's the I think for me, my opinion is

(16:58):
that the opposite is true for when it is a genuine, genuine,
concise apology. If I come to you and I say, Kristen,
I'm really sorry I dented your car. Uh, let me
fix this like that, that is taking control. I'm I'm
taking responsibility for something and clear kind of clearing the air.
I'm not as much being like exactly because in that case,

(17:21):
you are apologizing for something specific that you did that
was out of line with my car, Caroline. Whereas you know,
what Karen's talking about is more in terms of that
verbal cushioning, although there might be some empowerment some social
science suggests in refusing to apologize. This is interesting. Yeah,

(17:44):
this was reported on by shankra vedantem Over at NPR
and he talked about some research done by a trio
of academics. And I found that willfully not apologizing yields
a sense of empowerment and integrity. But there's a limit
to it. If you just never apologize for anything, you're

(18:07):
kind of a jerk. No, actually, you're just a jerk.
But in certain times, when you put your foot in
the ground and say no, actually sorry, I'm not sorry,
then you we we all it almost elevates our status,
at least in our minds. Yeah. Absolutely, that that feeling
of self worth because I mean, you know, using the

(18:27):
preface self, I mean it's kind of self righteous as well.
You kind of feel like, well, no, I'm better than
all of you. I'm right, you're wrong. I'm not apologizing.
But I feel like if maybe I could do a
better job of weeding out those unnecessary i'm sorries, I
bet I would derive a sense of empowerment from that
of simply asking or saying what I mean without having

(18:52):
to go ahead and ask forgiveness before I even do
it right exactly, And then I don't know, I feel
like prefacing something by apologize. Think the person that you're
asking is like, oh god, what, no, what is she
going to ask? They're prepared to disagree with you exactly. Yes, exactly,
because yeah, it's almost like you've gone ahead and devalued
what you're about to say exactly. But there is another

(19:14):
facet of receiving the apology, of being on that receiving
end of the I'm sorry when perhaps it's not coming
from someone that we don't expect it from. Uh. There
was a study that came out of the Rotterdam School
of Management at Erasmus University which found that apologies a

(19:34):
lot of times more often than not, probably out of
those workplace settings, leave us wanting. Yeah, you might think
that if you are wronged, an apology will make you
feel so much better if she would just apologize, if
he would just say I'm sorry. But they did these
studies that had you know, something happened to a person
and then they received an apology and actual apology, and

(19:57):
then just imagining that they received the apolo pology and
the people who imagine the apology were like, oh, I
would feel so much better, but the people who actually
received the verbal apology were like, well, like, I guess
it's good they said it. But even though apologies themselves
can sometimes be underwhelming, one of the co authors, David D. Kramer,

(20:22):
said that they're still crucial because they quote trigger a
highly scripted reconciliation process. And that's the thing about apologizing,
is that saying I'm sorry, I promise I won't do
that again is only the start of the apology, right.
It's it's an apology is the first step towards mending
a broken relationship. It restores a kind of social order.

(20:46):
And there was one who was the writer was it
like a I feel like it was kind of an
etiquette writer who said that the failure to accept an
apology turns the victim into the transgressor Oh yeah, so
if I do some thing to you and I apologize
for it, but you're still really like p oed and
you don't accept my apology, that makes you into the

(21:07):
rude person. It's true, I feel like I've experienced the
situation before, but I'm on both sides, like stalked away
and been like well, that's their problem. I have probably
apologized for not accepting an apology before. It's true. Um,
But it's interesting though that Tom Jacob's writing at Pacific
Standard says that we are living and other people have

(21:29):
said this too, and these this apology literature that we
looked at, that we live in a culture of apologies,
whether it's just the interpersonal apology or something as massive
as setting up truth commissions and having government apologies for
atrocities that have happened in the past. Um, it's our way.

(21:50):
It's He says that apologizing has evolved into a nuanced ritual,
so much so that these academic disciplines are developing around well,
what are we actually doing when we're apologizing? Doesn't really
do anything. It's a script that we follow a lot
of times, but it changes so much depending on status, gender,

(22:11):
what we really mean when we say I'm sorry, Yeah,
I mean, especially when you have somebody like Anthony Weiner
who just keeps taking it out and taking pictures of
it and then apologizing. I mean, it's like we're like, Okay,
he messed up again, Let's let's have the press conference
where he apologizes. It's like, why, why is the apology
and his press conference more important than the fact that
he's the total sleeves ball. Well, that though, gets into

(22:34):
the issue of the non apology, and I would say
that in the in the apology spectrum, the worst you
can do is deliver the non apology, because you're going
through the motions of an apology, but you don't really
mean it, and usually it's pretty obvious that it's a

(22:54):
non apology. And I feel like that a lot of
times the recipient of a non apology is only feel
feels only more violated. Sure, well, I've I've done it.
I've made non apologies and I've received non apologies. And
usually when I'm making a non apology, like using an
if statement or I'm sorry that you feel this way,
it's because I I consider the other person's view to

(23:17):
be inaccurate and correct, whatever, and so I tend to
not use non apologies unless I do want to make
it clear that I completely disagree with you over whatever
the topic is. No, Caroline, you should that you should
then put your foot down and not apologize at all,
and you could get that sense of integrity and empowerment.

(23:38):
I could feel better and then not have to circle
back around and apologize for the non apology um, although
I was amused to find that Hebrew University of Jerusalem
Assistant professor of Communications Zoe Or Camp outlined fourteen different
types of non apologies in a two thousand eight article,
and I believe that he found these different brands of

(24:03):
non apologies by reading public apologies from either CEOs or
government leaders. Basically people who had had done wrong and
had to apologize once they had been caught, especially people
in the financial sector who basically caused the recession, and
when they were giving statements, they said things to the

(24:25):
effect of like, I'm sorry at people's losses, I'm sorry
about people's misfortunes, instead of I'm sorry for wrecking the economy. Yeah,
taking actual responsibility. And one thing that jumped out at
me from his research was he said that referring to
an offensive action as a mistake is a type of

(24:47):
non apology because by just calling it a mistake, you
are minimizing your guilty. I didn't mean to Yeah, you
shouldn't be mad at me. Yeah, I didn't mean to
do it. Everybody makes mistakes, yeah, everybody hurts exactly, So
not to close with an apology, but I realized that
in a lot of ways I have co opted this episode,
but I couldn't get enough of this research because it

(25:11):
was so enlightening to dissect why we apologize so much
and the purposes that it serves, especially in the context
of making the the apology just to apologize. Yeah, And
I think the people who do so, whether male or female,
um do tend to be the people who want to

(25:33):
smooth things over. They don't want to ruffle feathers, or
or they want to reassure you that you know, they
don't mean any harm by what they're what they're doing,
and so and I also think that you know, a
lot of those apologies of like oh, I'm sorry you
had a bad day, or I'm sorry that you know
it rained on your parade. Yeah, And that's expressing concern
and I don't I don't see anything wrong with that

(25:54):
at all. It's more when it ties into the status
and power issue that I want to adjust my apologizing behavior.
But to answer the question of whether men or women
apologize more, it is clear that women do apologize more,
But we got to keep in mind that it's because
we find more things that we do apology worthy, and

(26:18):
so maybe that's what we should think about in terms of, well,
why why do we think that we that this is
an offense worthy of an apology? Sorry? Not sorry ladies?
That how about not sorry at all? So who can
relate to me? I know I have apology happy friends
out there listening. Please right in mom Stuff at Discovery

(26:39):
dot com. Um, and if you have tried to weed
out excessive apologies in your life, I want to hear
all of your stories. You can email to us. You
can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast, or send
us a Facebook message as well. And we've got a
couple of Facebook messages to share with you when we
come right back from a quick break and now back
to our letters. So I've got a couple of Facebook

(27:03):
messages here on our episode on women in True Crime,
and the first one is from Courtney, and she writes,
I am a closeted true crime fan, although closeted no more, Courtney,
I remember watching Rescue nine one one as a kid
and being utterly fascinated. I prefer the victims centered I
survived types of things over stories with tragic endings by far,

(27:24):
but I do read and watch those as well. Honestly,
I've crewed myself out more than once wondering what the
age is wrong with me that I am interested in
this stuff. Through my soul searching, I've discovered a definite
desire to hear how people, not just women, ended up
in the circumstances they found themselves in, how they got
out of those situations, and what happened to the perpetrator.
I suppose I feel more empowered thinking through potentially threatening circumstances,

(27:47):
and my hope is that if the unthinkable should ever happen,
I would be calmer and better equipped to deal with it.
Who knows if it would when it came right down
to it, but I think it actually helps me sleep
better at night, knowing, thinking, hoping I've as us through
the worst case scenario. Anyway, great show again. I was
a little nervous that it would be what is wrong
with you? Psychos type of episode, but as usual, I

(28:09):
was pleasantly surprised to hear your I get it even
if I don't approach. Thanks ladies, and thank you Courtney. Okay,
I have a message here from Katrina. She says, I'm
a woman and I started getting interested in true crime
my senior year in high school because the mentor I
was working with for my senior project had to search
and rescue dogs, one of which was a cadaver dog,

(28:31):
a dog trains specifically to locate dead bodies. I kept
reading more and more about that, which led me to anthropology,
specifically forensic anthropology and Dr Bill Bass. It's now kind
of spiraled out of control winky phase. I love trying
to solve the mystery. If I don't know the case
and or gather some clues as to why this person
committed this crime. If you were to look at my bookshelf,

(28:52):
if you would think I was nuts. Anyway, the real
reason I wanted to write is that I hate that
women have to call something a guilty pleasure. Why do
we as women have to feel guilty about liking something.
I also wanted to touch on crime in media and
non white women. Many crime TV shows actually have a
diverse background of women and men who are victims. Yes,
they're probably more white women than not, but shows like

(29:13):
Criminal Minds and c S I have had many episodes
and cases that dealt with non white women. So I
wonder if it is just printed material it is this way.
You mentioned Law and Order spu and many of the
crimes on that show are taken from real cases. And
Katrina goes on to say that she really doesn't like
romance novels and that part of the reason I read

(29:34):
mystery slash true Crime slash Crime is that because I
like solving mysteries, but also many times the woman in
the books doesn't mind kicking butt every once in a while.
So thanks for the message, Katrina, and thanks to everybody
who's written in. You can message us on Facebook like
Courtney and Katrina did. You can also follow us on
Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Email us mom Stuff at
Discovery dot com, and for some fun stuff, we are

(29:57):
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on over and check out our channel. It's YouTube dot
com slash stuff Mom Never Told You, and don't forget
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(30:18):
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(30:39):
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Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com

Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang

Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang

Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.

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