March 10, 2010 • 21 mins
Cristen and Molly discuss the issue of diversity in ballet, past and present -- and the origins of the art form -- in this episode of Stuff Mom Never Told You.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.
It's ready. Are you welcome to stuff mom never told you?
From House top works dot com. Hello, and welcome to
the podcast. This is Kristen, This is Molly. So Molly.
(00:21):
As you well know, I was a ballerina for a
little while. And by a ballerina, I really mean I
just took ballet classes a lot. I'm sure you are
ballerina in your heart, in my heart, yes, I was,
I am. It seems very important to you, Yeah, it was.
It was really important to me. At one point I
had to choose between playing soccer and ballet, and I
(00:41):
chose for some reason ballet and uh and went for it.
Had a lot of good friends, a lot of great
memories from it. But um, we decided that we should
do a podcast on ballet because it is a very
stereotypically feminine pastime sport. Even as a non ballerina, I
have fond memory going to the Nutcracker every year. Yeah,
and if you think about the ballet audiences, you know
(01:05):
it's usually you know, the kind of stilly stereotype of
the girls dragging their boyfriends along to go to the
boring ballets, but we wanted to do this podcast, and
so I decided to take the lead on researching it
and kind of figure out what we wanted to to
focus on. And I ran across this very poignant biography
(01:26):
of a dancer named Raven Wilkinson that opened up a
side of ballet that never really occurred to me. And
that's this issue of diversity and flat out racism in
classical ballet. So let's learn a little bit about Raven
Wilkinson and why she's so important. So in nineteen fifty four,
(01:49):
Raven Wilkinson became the first African American woman to be
hired as a permanent dancer by a leading American ballet troupe,
and um it caused so much scandal that in Alabama,
the Ku Klux Klan came and confronted her dance company
on stage. Now, this is she was so light skinned,
according to this article in the New Statesman, that they
couldn't even find her um, which maybe shows what a
(02:10):
non issue this was. But the quote from this article
that you sent me that really just brought it home
to me was she told UM she was told after
the clan attendent that she would never play a lead.
And the example she gives is they wouldn't want a
black white swan this you know, famed role of the
white swan. They wanted the whitest swan possible and that
(02:30):
extended all the way to color up skin. Yeah. And
the thing is with this this white swan quote that
comes up, and this is in the nineteen fifties. This
same theme is echoed in an interview in Point magazine
with uh, a dancer from I think the article came
(02:50):
out in like two thousand five, who was essentially saying
the same thing. She was in a rehearsal for what like,
She was in a rehearsal Force Swan Lake, and the
director immediately told all the girls, I don't want any
of you coming in with a tan. I want you
all as pale as possible. And this black dancer is
(03:10):
standing there thinking to herself, well, you know, well what
am I? What am I supposed to do? So I
think that the swan like example is kind of, um,
kind of encompasses this whole diversity problem. Um. But before
we get into into that aspect of it, why don't
(03:31):
we just give a little brief history of ballet as
an art form starts in Renaissance Italy. It's basically part
of lavish entertainment in the courts, and this would come
along with stuff like painting and poetry and music that
would be performed in these large halls for the wealthy class.
(03:52):
Entertainment for the wealthy. Yes, and it spread all over Europe.
Um found really strong to holds pardon the pun and
France and Russia. In fact, Louis the fourteenth himself was
a was a pretty big dancer. Yeah, his title of
the Sun King was actually derived from a roll that
he himself performed in a ballet. That's fun fact. That
(04:16):
was a fun fact. I was. I was unaware of that.
But I think that where the identity problems start, and
maybe where these race problems start, is when ballet crosses
the ocean, this very European aristocratic art form crosses over
to the United States and it sort of becomes a
little bit is trying to find its own identity, wouldn't
you say, Kristen, Yeah, we have um George Balanchine, who
(04:39):
was born in Russia. Because after Paris Ballet really um
took on a whole new life in Russia, and so
George Balancheen really brings that over to the US. He
partners up with a guy named Lincoln Kurston, who was
a wealthy American patron of the arts, and together they
(05:00):
formed the School of American Ballet. And I think that
they helped start the New York City New York City
Ballet as well. But who are they hiring as their dancers? Well,
for curs stign like his original vision. According to this
New York Times article, we found his original vision for
this ballet core was sort of a separate all white core.
(05:22):
I think of like six male dancers and six female dancers,
and then a black core of you know, six males
and six females. But that never really happens. It's still
it's very segregated, to the point that black people started
forming their own ballet ballet troops, like the most famous,
it seems, this seven American Negro Ballet. Yes, but you've
(05:46):
got this whole problem of separate by equal. Yeah, because, um,
the Ballet Theater in New York had a Negro unit
for one year in nineteen forty. But a lot of
the black dancers who are really successful, we're never going
to be able to get any kind of principal roles
and any mainstream, uh mainstream dance units, so they would
(06:06):
actually just go over to Europe where they were more
accepted and could enjoy more more prominence. So this does
seem to be a particularly American problem. I mean, Raymond
Wilkinson went and danced with Ballet Russe and Monte Carlo,
and it does seem that these international ballets don't have
this promise saguration that we do. Yeah, and then we
do in nineteen fifty one, we do have Janet Collins,
(06:28):
who was the first black prima prima ballerina in the
Metropolitan Opera Ballet. But she is just one person. You know,
that doesn't mean that all of a sudden, like other
a lot of other black dancers are are enjoying you know,
these lead roles at all. And then in nineteen fifty
eight we have Alvanley who forms the very famous Alvanley
(06:50):
Dance Group. But that wasn't necessarily just classical ballet. It
was more um modern dance. And he very intentionally described
his dance group as multicultural because he didn't want it
just you know, he didn't want just an all black
or all white, you know, dance group. He wanted to incorporate, um,
all sorts of ethnicities, but like you said, not really
(07:12):
classical ballet solely. Right. To get back to the ballet story,
I think that we've got to talk in nineteen sixty
nine Arthur Mitchell, and you see his name everywhere. He
was within New York City Ballet and then went on
to found the Dance Theater of Harlem in nineteen sixty nine,
and people talk about this is sort of you know,
the door may not be wide open for black ballerinas,
(07:32):
but this was the first big crack. Yeah. And even
with Arthur Mitchell's very successful career, Um, just to give
you an idea of how how much of a problem
there was with race in ballet, he was not even
allowed to do a perform at Potido with a white
ballet dancer, female dancer on television because it would have
(07:55):
been far too scandalous. And it wasn't until nineteen sixty
eight on The Tonight Show, which is considered far more progressive,
that he was actually allowed to perform, right, And there
were no black ballerinas to dance with. Yeah, that was
the problem, right. The only woman who knew this other
lead role was was white. Um. And then in nineteen
(08:15):
seventy three, finally we have Christopher boat right, who was
the first black dancer to perform a lead in a
full length classic ballet at the Lincolnsenter, I mean, nineteen
seventy three, and we finally get it's like, one person
at a time, this is not representing some kind of
movement at all. Right, These these landmarks need to be
very few in bar between. And even in the last
(08:37):
ten years, it's not that we're getting more, um black
ballerinas taking on these big roles. They're just forming more
and more segregated troops, seems like, right, And we're talking
specifically about a lot about black dancers, but I think
that we can also extend this conversation to dancers of
other ethnicities like Asian dancers and stuff as well. Like
the most of the premium ballerinas that you see out
(08:59):
there are very white, very European looking, and I think
that that brings up, you know, it is a European
art form, and so I think that one of the weirdest,
you know, things that people will come up and say
is that the black body is not made to do
this sort of European dance. It sounds ridiculous, but that's
(09:21):
what they get pushed back on. Yeah, that's been the
number one argument that comes up, the rationale I guess
for these directors not casting black dancers of you know,
just saying like, oh, well, you know, they don't have
the right body type, because if you look at a dancer,
I mean, it's you know, there is a very specific
ballet body. I mean it's a body that I don't have,
(09:43):
you know. Um, but that really couldn't be further from
the truth. I mean, the body type is going to
vary from girl to girl, regardless of her race. But
in more recent years there has been a more concerted
effort with increasing diversity, specifically in classical ballet as opposed
to modern jazz, hip hop, etcetera. UM. For instance, a
(10:03):
woman named Casa Pancho in two thousand started Ballet Black
with the London Ballet, which is um a black dance
unit that's specifically meant to promote diversity in ballet. And
she even says, you know, the goal of Ballet Black
is that at some point it won't have to exist
because there won't be an issue with just having all
(10:26):
these all white ballet units. So right, now let's say
that we've got just a typical ballet group, and the
three people who really can put people of more color
on the stage are the artistic director, the casting director,
and the choreographer. So the question then becomes, do these
(10:48):
people have an obligation of sorts too? I mean, does
ballet need affirmative action? To put it in very simple terms,
And they say, hey, our job is just to put
the best danswers on stage. And I think that this
is where the ballet the ballet is. She gets kind
of interesting because it's very much a vicious circle. You know,
(11:08):
these artistic directors say they want to put the best
answers on stage today, that's most likely to be a
white woman, because that's, you know, who makes up most
of these troops. It seems like, uh, the people of
other colors are relegated to the core, so they put
those one on stage. So then little girls go to
the ballet. And then the question is if a black
(11:29):
girl sees an all white performance, does she then think
the world of ballet is closed to her? And so
then she may not pursue a ballet education, which just
means that when there are our auditions, the artistic director
has fewer people of different ethnicities to choose from. Yeah,
And this is something that was pointed out in an
(11:50):
interview for Point magazine by Virginie Johnson, who was a
former star of dance Suitor of Harlem, which I think
we should also mention has been on hiatus since two
thousand four, so close a huge door for black dancers. Um.
And she said that this racial disparity stems from three
major issues the artistic vision, like you mentioned, UM, culture
(12:12):
and economics. I mean, just from my own experience, is
a very kind of low level ballerina. It was a
very expensive sport to pursue, right, I mean it's not
like there are just a ton of famous white ballerinas
and that you know, black women just haven't you know,
crack some sort of ceiling. Basically there any ballerina's going
(12:32):
to face a long, hard road. Oh yeah. Making it
big as a ballerina is like winning the lottery basically
in terms of odds. And we were also saying coming
back a lot to black women specifically, because since there
are far fewer male ballerinas, you'll often seem more black
males on stage in lead roles than black females. So
(12:53):
let's go back to this idea of culture and what
the black body means, which we addressed a little bit earlier.
There are some good quotes in these articles you found
about how if if ballet needs sort of an earthy,
crazy character, that's when they might cast someone of color. Yeah,
and because a lot of it just comes down to
cultural stereotyping. There was um an article that I read,
(13:17):
uh talking about how Asian characters in ballet's are usually
portrayed as just this very exaggerated, like overly cute, see
pretty demeaning, um portrayal of of Asian cultures. And it's
sort of the same thing with uh black characters. Like
(13:37):
you said, they're usually portrayed as he's kind of wild,
untamed creatures rather than the more typical, you know, swan
like ethereal goddess. I think there was one quote that
said that basically the white women could be on that
pedestal of being ethereal, of floating around with spirits and
wood nymphs and you know, nutcrackers, whereas you know, they
(14:00):
an audience would not be ready to accept a black
woman on that same sort of pedestal, which I think
is just you know, a very sad thing to think
about in this day and age that an audience would
be ready to accept that. But they'll say, you know that,
think about a black body. It might have curves that
that very stick. Then ballerina doesn't have. And so they'll
try and say, you know this, this woman couldn't do
(14:22):
this dance, whereas you know, they don't even give her
a chance to do the dance. And I think that
Emma Gueller, who wrote a paper um that we read
called Racism and Dance, brings up an interesting point and
this is actually um a quote from an editor for
Dance magazine. She says that bodies are idealized for specific political, economic,
and social purposes of inclusion and exclusion. And so even
(14:46):
though we think of you know, ballet is just kind
of perhaps a fluffy form of entertainment, when you look
at these racial issues that come up with it, it
takes on a whole new meaning of how we do
and interpret specifically a woman's body and then from their
women of different ethnicities. So it seems like with everything
(15:10):
else that's going on, and you know, in this economy,
ballet is already struggling pretty hard. As many of the
arts are does the artistic director, does a choreographer, does
a casting director make the you know, concerted effort to
bring more diversity to a stage, or do you think
we'll continue to see more segregated troops. I mean, it
(15:30):
seems like right now the trend is that if you
can't find a place in the classical ballet, you're likely
to join a join a group that specializes in dancers
of other ethnicities. But you know, it's I think it's
sad that you'd have to choose between a nutcracker with
made up of no white people and a nutcracker made
(15:52):
up of only white people. Well, and I think that
the answer to that question isn't just going to um
us on the shoulders of these artistic directors at this
very high level of uh dancing, but actually down to
the very early ballet and dance opportunities that are afforded
(16:13):
to two kids, you know, because obviously it takes years
and years of training to become a premium ballerina and
um one point that's made in a lot of these
articles is that there really just isn't a lot of
diversity in the groups of people who are auditioning and
that might have to do with the way that there
are lots of outreach programs, dance outreach programs for UM
(16:36):
minority young people, but there isn't necessarily a lot of
follow through to really give them a support system and
really educate them and give them the resources that they need, uh,
to take them up through the ranks and actually get
them on stage as professionals. So I think that it's
going to be a difficult problem or difficult issue to tackle, right.
(16:57):
And you sent me a blog from two thousand nine
and to Dutch girl who was black was part of
a ballet group and she wore her hair in a
bun as her as her school required, but it was
a braided bun, and UM, you know, they said that
for anything less than a performance, it would just be
too much effort to fix my hair this way, and
(17:17):
she was thrown out of the school. So it's you're
right that I think that there are a lot of
obstacles just for young girls trying to get to a
level of the where they would even be considered by
UM a casting director. So it's it's UM, it's pretty
interesting thing to think about. Yeah, it was definitely eye
opening for me because I just you know, I've really
hutn't given it much thought, to be honest, but looking
(17:40):
at it now, it does seem like ballet definitely has
a pretty significant diversity problem. And especially with all the
different other dance forms that are out there that are
probably becoming more popular than ballet, I think that I
think that it might be high time for the people,
the powers that be to try to even harder to
remedy that. But rbill ballet die out, or maybe ballet
(18:02):
will whither away an elitist relic of the past. Maybe
this is a Swan song. Better sup that nut. So
if you have experience, uh in your ballet class um
with any sort of diversity is she would love to
hear about it. What you think could be done to
solve this diversity problem? If you think there's one in
(18:23):
the first place, Yeah, that's the one. If you don't
think it matters at all? Who cares? Mom stuff at
house first dot com. All those opinions, we want them.
So I'm gonna read a little bit of an email
that came from Madaline about our bullying podcast. She has
some advice for all the girls coming up in rumors
or gossip. She writes, I think it's really important to
(18:45):
stay calm when rumors like that surface and girls being bullied,
to always talk to a friend about it, because it
really does get to be too much when you just
keep it in. If you don't react to all the
drama or rumors, it usually gets better. It doesn't matter
if people talk bad about you. All that matters is
that you and the people you care about know what
they are saying isn't true. And all I have to
say is what comes around, it goes around. And I've
got an email here from Dania and she is in
(19:08):
ninth grade, and she is writing us about our podcast
on Burkas and she says most Muslims, myself included, reject
al Qaeda and terrorism. Although a radical side of Islam
does exist, it's a very small side, and she'll stay
that way. I just wanted to point out that misconception
because so many incidents have occurred to Muslims because of terrorism.
(19:29):
One time, when driving with my mom, a man in
a different car started cussing at her profusely because she
was wearing a heat job. This stead upset my mom
and myself badly, because my mom is a good citizen
of the US and will never subject to terrorism. There
had been Muslims killed because of racial issues, and that
should stop, as should be killing done by anyone for
(19:49):
racial issues. So when it comes down to pro or
con Burka, I'm pro Burka, and I guess you can
say that it's biased you to my Muslim upbring. But
if anything, it all comes down to a woman's choice.
That's my two stints. So thank you, Tania, and I'll
read one more from Sarah, who writes about our parenting
and gender podcast. She writes, when I was three years old,
(20:09):
my father left my mother for another man. Like most
kids of divorced I was shuffled back and forth between
households for the rest of my youth. It wasn't until
I hit middle school that I realized my situation was
different than most. Having two dads was all I ever knew,
so to me, it was totally normal. Not all of
my friends felt that way, and often kids would tell
jokes at my expense. But as you addressed in your
bullying podcast, kids will find something that makes you different
(20:30):
and exploit it any way to help climb the social later.
So if I hadn't so, if it hadn't been my
two dads that made me different. I'm sure they would
have found something else to make fun of. Even though
that part of my experience was negative. Overall, I am
very thankful for my unique family. It gave me an
enlightened perspective on love and relationships. If you're lucky to
find someone you love, man or woman, and no one
has the right to judge it. My dad and my
(20:51):
stepfather were together for twenty six years and I am
so thankful I got to have been my life. My
stepfather passed away just before Christmas of lung cancer and
we missed him dearly. So that's from Sarah. Well, thanks
guys for writing in, and as always, if you want
to send us an email, it's Mom Stuff at how
stuff works dot com. During the week, you should please
(21:12):
check out our blog it's called how to Stuff and
you can also check out other articles that Molly and
I have written, along with many other podcast personalities, at
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(21:32):
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Are you
Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.
It's ready. Are you welcome to stuff mom never told you?
From House top works dot com. Hello, and welcome to
the podcast. This is Kristen, This is Molly. So Molly.
(00:21):
As you well know, I was a ballerina for a
little while. And by a ballerina, I really mean I
just took ballet classes a lot. I'm sure you are
ballerina in your heart, in my heart, yes, I was,
I am. It seems very important to you, Yeah, it was.
It was really important to me. At one point I
had to choose between playing soccer and ballet, and I
(00:41):
chose for some reason ballet and uh and went for it.
Had a lot of good friends, a lot of great
memories from it. But um, we decided that we should
do a podcast on ballet because it is a very
stereotypically feminine pastime sport. Even as a non ballerina, I
have fond memory going to the Nutcracker every year. Yeah,
and if you think about the ballet audiences, you know
(01:05):
it's usually you know, the kind of stilly stereotype of
the girls dragging their boyfriends along to go to the
boring ballets, but we wanted to do this podcast, and
so I decided to take the lead on researching it
and kind of figure out what we wanted to to
focus on. And I ran across this very poignant biography
(01:26):
of a dancer named Raven Wilkinson that opened up a
side of ballet that never really occurred to me. And
that's this issue of diversity and flat out racism in
classical ballet. So let's learn a little bit about Raven
Wilkinson and why she's so important. So in nineteen fifty four,
(01:49):
Raven Wilkinson became the first African American woman to be
hired as a permanent dancer by a leading American ballet troupe,
and um it caused so much scandal that in Alabama,
the Ku Klux Klan came and confronted her dance company
on stage. Now, this is she was so light skinned,
according to this article in the New Statesman, that they
couldn't even find her um, which maybe shows what a
(02:10):
non issue this was. But the quote from this article
that you sent me that really just brought it home
to me was she told UM she was told after
the clan attendent that she would never play a lead.
And the example she gives is they wouldn't want a
black white swan this you know, famed role of the
white swan. They wanted the whitest swan possible and that
(02:30):
extended all the way to color up skin. Yeah. And
the thing is with this this white swan quote that
comes up, and this is in the nineteen fifties. This
same theme is echoed in an interview in Point magazine
with uh, a dancer from I think the article came
(02:50):
out in like two thousand five, who was essentially saying
the same thing. She was in a rehearsal for what like,
She was in a rehearsal Force Swan Lake, and the
director immediately told all the girls, I don't want any
of you coming in with a tan. I want you
all as pale as possible. And this black dancer is
(03:10):
standing there thinking to herself, well, you know, well what
am I? What am I supposed to do? So I
think that the swan like example is kind of, um,
kind of encompasses this whole diversity problem. Um. But before
we get into into that aspect of it, why don't
(03:31):
we just give a little brief history of ballet as
an art form starts in Renaissance Italy. It's basically part
of lavish entertainment in the courts, and this would come
along with stuff like painting and poetry and music that
would be performed in these large halls for the wealthy class.
(03:52):
Entertainment for the wealthy. Yes, and it spread all over Europe.
Um found really strong to holds pardon the pun and
France and Russia. In fact, Louis the fourteenth himself was
a was a pretty big dancer. Yeah, his title of
the Sun King was actually derived from a roll that
he himself performed in a ballet. That's fun fact. That
(04:16):
was a fun fact. I was. I was unaware of that.
But I think that where the identity problems start, and
maybe where these race problems start, is when ballet crosses
the ocean, this very European aristocratic art form crosses over
to the United States and it sort of becomes a
little bit is trying to find its own identity, wouldn't
you say, Kristen, Yeah, we have um George Balanchine, who
(04:39):
was born in Russia. Because after Paris Ballet really um
took on a whole new life in Russia, and so
George Balancheen really brings that over to the US. He
partners up with a guy named Lincoln Kurston, who was
a wealthy American patron of the arts, and together they
(05:00):
formed the School of American Ballet. And I think that
they helped start the New York City New York City
Ballet as well. But who are they hiring as their dancers? Well,
for curs stign like his original vision. According to this
New York Times article, we found his original vision for
this ballet core was sort of a separate all white core.
(05:22):
I think of like six male dancers and six female dancers,
and then a black core of you know, six males
and six females. But that never really happens. It's still
it's very segregated, to the point that black people started
forming their own ballet ballet troops, like the most famous,
it seems, this seven American Negro Ballet. Yes, but you've
(05:46):
got this whole problem of separate by equal. Yeah, because, um,
the Ballet Theater in New York had a Negro unit
for one year in nineteen forty. But a lot of
the black dancers who are really successful, we're never going
to be able to get any kind of principal roles
and any mainstream, uh mainstream dance units, so they would
(06:06):
actually just go over to Europe where they were more
accepted and could enjoy more more prominence. So this does
seem to be a particularly American problem. I mean, Raymond
Wilkinson went and danced with Ballet Russe and Monte Carlo,
and it does seem that these international ballets don't have
this promise saguration that we do. Yeah, and then we
do in nineteen fifty one, we do have Janet Collins,
(06:28):
who was the first black prima prima ballerina in the
Metropolitan Opera Ballet. But she is just one person. You know,
that doesn't mean that all of a sudden, like other
a lot of other black dancers are are enjoying you know,
these lead roles at all. And then in nineteen fifty
eight we have Alvanley who forms the very famous Alvanley
(06:50):
Dance Group. But that wasn't necessarily just classical ballet. It
was more um modern dance. And he very intentionally described
his dance group as multicultural because he didn't want it
just you know, he didn't want just an all black
or all white, you know, dance group. He wanted to incorporate, um,
all sorts of ethnicities, but like you said, not really
(07:12):
classical ballet solely. Right. To get back to the ballet story,
I think that we've got to talk in nineteen sixty
nine Arthur Mitchell, and you see his name everywhere. He
was within New York City Ballet and then went on
to found the Dance Theater of Harlem in nineteen sixty nine,
and people talk about this is sort of you know,
the door may not be wide open for black ballerinas,
(07:32):
but this was the first big crack. Yeah. And even
with Arthur Mitchell's very successful career, Um, just to give
you an idea of how how much of a problem
there was with race in ballet, he was not even
allowed to do a perform at Potido with a white
ballet dancer, female dancer on television because it would have
(07:55):
been far too scandalous. And it wasn't until nineteen sixty
eight on The Tonight Show, which is considered far more progressive,
that he was actually allowed to perform, right, And there
were no black ballerinas to dance with. Yeah, that was
the problem, right. The only woman who knew this other
lead role was was white. Um. And then in nineteen
(08:15):
seventy three, finally we have Christopher boat right, who was
the first black dancer to perform a lead in a
full length classic ballet at the Lincolnsenter, I mean, nineteen
seventy three, and we finally get it's like, one person
at a time, this is not representing some kind of
movement at all. Right, These these landmarks need to be
very few in bar between. And even in the last
(08:37):
ten years, it's not that we're getting more, um black
ballerinas taking on these big roles. They're just forming more
and more segregated troops, seems like, right, And we're talking
specifically about a lot about black dancers, but I think
that we can also extend this conversation to dancers of
other ethnicities like Asian dancers and stuff as well. Like
the most of the premium ballerinas that you see out
(08:59):
there are very white, very European looking, and I think
that that brings up, you know, it is a European
art form, and so I think that one of the weirdest,
you know, things that people will come up and say
is that the black body is not made to do
this sort of European dance. It sounds ridiculous, but that's
(09:21):
what they get pushed back on. Yeah, that's been the
number one argument that comes up, the rationale I guess
for these directors not casting black dancers of you know,
just saying like, oh, well, you know, they don't have
the right body type, because if you look at a dancer,
I mean, it's you know, there is a very specific
ballet body. I mean it's a body that I don't have,
(09:43):
you know. Um, but that really couldn't be further from
the truth. I mean, the body type is going to
vary from girl to girl, regardless of her race. But
in more recent years there has been a more concerted
effort with increasing diversity, specifically in classical ballet as opposed
to modern jazz, hip hop, etcetera. UM. For instance, a
(10:03):
woman named Casa Pancho in two thousand started Ballet Black
with the London Ballet, which is um a black dance
unit that's specifically meant to promote diversity in ballet. And
she even says, you know, the goal of Ballet Black
is that at some point it won't have to exist
because there won't be an issue with just having all
(10:26):
these all white ballet units. So right, now let's say
that we've got just a typical ballet group, and the
three people who really can put people of more color
on the stage are the artistic director, the casting director,
and the choreographer. So the question then becomes, do these
(10:48):
people have an obligation of sorts too? I mean, does
ballet need affirmative action? To put it in very simple terms,
And they say, hey, our job is just to put
the best danswers on stage. And I think that this
is where the ballet the ballet is. She gets kind
of interesting because it's very much a vicious circle. You know,
(11:08):
these artistic directors say they want to put the best
answers on stage today, that's most likely to be a
white woman, because that's, you know, who makes up most
of these troops. It seems like, uh, the people of
other colors are relegated to the core, so they put
those one on stage. So then little girls go to
the ballet. And then the question is if a black
(11:29):
girl sees an all white performance, does she then think
the world of ballet is closed to her? And so
then she may not pursue a ballet education, which just
means that when there are our auditions, the artistic director
has fewer people of different ethnicities to choose from. Yeah,
And this is something that was pointed out in an
(11:50):
interview for Point magazine by Virginie Johnson, who was a
former star of dance Suitor of Harlem, which I think
we should also mention has been on hiatus since two
thousand four, so close a huge door for black dancers. Um.
And she said that this racial disparity stems from three
major issues the artistic vision, like you mentioned, UM, culture
(12:12):
and economics. I mean, just from my own experience, is
a very kind of low level ballerina. It was a
very expensive sport to pursue, right, I mean it's not
like there are just a ton of famous white ballerinas
and that you know, black women just haven't you know,
crack some sort of ceiling. Basically there any ballerina's going
(12:32):
to face a long, hard road. Oh yeah. Making it
big as a ballerina is like winning the lottery basically
in terms of odds. And we were also saying coming
back a lot to black women specifically, because since there
are far fewer male ballerinas, you'll often seem more black
males on stage in lead roles than black females. So
(12:53):
let's go back to this idea of culture and what
the black body means, which we addressed a little bit earlier.
There are some good quotes in these articles you found
about how if if ballet needs sort of an earthy,
crazy character, that's when they might cast someone of color. Yeah,
and because a lot of it just comes down to
cultural stereotyping. There was um an article that I read,
(13:17):
uh talking about how Asian characters in ballet's are usually
portrayed as just this very exaggerated, like overly cute, see
pretty demeaning, um portrayal of of Asian cultures. And it's
sort of the same thing with uh black characters. Like
(13:37):
you said, they're usually portrayed as he's kind of wild,
untamed creatures rather than the more typical, you know, swan
like ethereal goddess. I think there was one quote that
said that basically the white women could be on that
pedestal of being ethereal, of floating around with spirits and
wood nymphs and you know, nutcrackers, whereas you know, they
(14:00):
an audience would not be ready to accept a black
woman on that same sort of pedestal, which I think
is just you know, a very sad thing to think
about in this day and age that an audience would
be ready to accept that. But they'll say, you know that,
think about a black body. It might have curves that
that very stick. Then ballerina doesn't have. And so they'll
try and say, you know this, this woman couldn't do
(14:22):
this dance, whereas you know, they don't even give her
a chance to do the dance. And I think that
Emma Gueller, who wrote a paper um that we read
called Racism and Dance, brings up an interesting point and
this is actually um a quote from an editor for
Dance magazine. She says that bodies are idealized for specific political, economic,
and social purposes of inclusion and exclusion. And so even
(14:46):
though we think of you know, ballet is just kind
of perhaps a fluffy form of entertainment, when you look
at these racial issues that come up with it, it
takes on a whole new meaning of how we do
and interpret specifically a woman's body and then from their
women of different ethnicities. So it seems like with everything
(15:10):
else that's going on, and you know, in this economy,
ballet is already struggling pretty hard. As many of the
arts are does the artistic director, does a choreographer, does
a casting director make the you know, concerted effort to
bring more diversity to a stage, or do you think
we'll continue to see more segregated troops. I mean, it
(15:30):
seems like right now the trend is that if you
can't find a place in the classical ballet, you're likely
to join a join a group that specializes in dancers
of other ethnicities. But you know, it's I think it's
sad that you'd have to choose between a nutcracker with
made up of no white people and a nutcracker made
(15:52):
up of only white people. Well, and I think that
the answer to that question isn't just going to um
us on the shoulders of these artistic directors at this
very high level of uh dancing, but actually down to
the very early ballet and dance opportunities that are afforded
(16:13):
to two kids, you know, because obviously it takes years
and years of training to become a premium ballerina and
um one point that's made in a lot of these
articles is that there really just isn't a lot of
diversity in the groups of people who are auditioning and
that might have to do with the way that there
are lots of outreach programs, dance outreach programs for UM
(16:36):
minority young people, but there isn't necessarily a lot of
follow through to really give them a support system and
really educate them and give them the resources that they need, uh,
to take them up through the ranks and actually get
them on stage as professionals. So I think that it's
going to be a difficult problem or difficult issue to tackle, right.
(16:57):
And you sent me a blog from two thousand nine
and to Dutch girl who was black was part of
a ballet group and she wore her hair in a
bun as her as her school required, but it was
a braided bun, and UM, you know, they said that
for anything less than a performance, it would just be
too much effort to fix my hair this way, and
(17:17):
she was thrown out of the school. So it's you're
right that I think that there are a lot of
obstacles just for young girls trying to get to a
level of the where they would even be considered by
UM a casting director. So it's it's UM, it's pretty
interesting thing to think about. Yeah, it was definitely eye
opening for me because I just you know, I've really
hutn't given it much thought, to be honest, but looking
(17:40):
at it now, it does seem like ballet definitely has
a pretty significant diversity problem. And especially with all the
different other dance forms that are out there that are
probably becoming more popular than ballet, I think that I
think that it might be high time for the people,
the powers that be to try to even harder to
remedy that. But rbill ballet die out, or maybe ballet
(18:02):
will whither away an elitist relic of the past. Maybe
this is a Swan song. Better sup that nut. So
if you have experience, uh in your ballet class um
with any sort of diversity is she would love to
hear about it. What you think could be done to
solve this diversity problem? If you think there's one in
(18:23):
the first place, Yeah, that's the one. If you don't
think it matters at all? Who cares? Mom stuff at
house first dot com. All those opinions, we want them.
So I'm gonna read a little bit of an email
that came from Madaline about our bullying podcast. She has
some advice for all the girls coming up in rumors
or gossip. She writes, I think it's really important to
(18:45):
stay calm when rumors like that surface and girls being bullied,
to always talk to a friend about it, because it
really does get to be too much when you just
keep it in. If you don't react to all the
drama or rumors, it usually gets better. It doesn't matter
if people talk bad about you. All that matters is
that you and the people you care about know what
they are saying isn't true. And all I have to
say is what comes around, it goes around. And I've
got an email here from Dania and she is in
(19:08):
ninth grade, and she is writing us about our podcast
on Burkas and she says most Muslims, myself included, reject
al Qaeda and terrorism. Although a radical side of Islam
does exist, it's a very small side, and she'll stay
that way. I just wanted to point out that misconception
because so many incidents have occurred to Muslims because of terrorism.
(19:29):
One time, when driving with my mom, a man in
a different car started cussing at her profusely because she
was wearing a heat job. This stead upset my mom
and myself badly, because my mom is a good citizen
of the US and will never subject to terrorism. There
had been Muslims killed because of racial issues, and that
should stop, as should be killing done by anyone for
(19:49):
racial issues. So when it comes down to pro or
con Burka, I'm pro Burka, and I guess you can
say that it's biased you to my Muslim upbring. But
if anything, it all comes down to a woman's choice.
That's my two stints. So thank you, Tania, and I'll
read one more from Sarah, who writes about our parenting
and gender podcast. She writes, when I was three years old,
(20:09):
my father left my mother for another man. Like most
kids of divorced I was shuffled back and forth between
households for the rest of my youth. It wasn't until
I hit middle school that I realized my situation was
different than most. Having two dads was all I ever knew,
so to me, it was totally normal. Not all of
my friends felt that way, and often kids would tell
jokes at my expense. But as you addressed in your
bullying podcast, kids will find something that makes you different
(20:30):
and exploit it any way to help climb the social later.
So if I hadn't so, if it hadn't been my
two dads that made me different. I'm sure they would
have found something else to make fun of. Even though
that part of my experience was negative. Overall, I am
very thankful for my unique family. It gave me an
enlightened perspective on love and relationships. If you're lucky to
find someone you love, man or woman, and no one
has the right to judge it. My dad and my
(20:51):
stepfather were together for twenty six years and I am
so thankful I got to have been my life. My
stepfather passed away just before Christmas of lung cancer and
we missed him dearly. So that's from Sarah. Well, thanks
guys for writing in, and as always, if you want
to send us an email, it's Mom Stuff at how
stuff works dot com. During the week, you should please
(21:12):
check out our blog it's called how to Stuff and
you can also check out other articles that Molly and
I have written, along with many other podcast personalities, at
how stuff works dot com. For more on this and
thousands of other topics, is it how stuff works dot com.
(21:32):
Want more how stuff works, check out our blogs on
the house stuff works dot com home page. Brought to
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