January 23, 2013 • 27 mins
In this episode, Cristen and Caroline dive into the history of British domestic service as well as race and domestic service in the United States. Tune in to learn more about immigration, exploitation and risky work for domestic service workers today.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to stuff Mom never told you From house stuff
works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm
Kristen and I'm Caroline, and uh, let's just go ahead
and start off by saying two words Downton Abbey. Um,
(00:25):
lady Mary, doppelganger of mine. Gonna go ahead and own
up to that. Although O'Brien has a has a soft
spot in my heart because of those curls, she's got
the best, the most iconic hairstyle on television right now. Yeah, now,
I love I love the head housekeeper woman lady what's
(00:49):
her name. Uh it's not Mrs Pat Moore, No, that's
a cook. Yeah, but I love her. Okay, So we're
talking about Downton Abbey because it is kind of a
very romanticized look at the upstairs downstairs, the vision of
labor between wealthier people and domestic service, all those domestic workers.
(01:13):
And when we thought about doing an episode on on
maids and domestic workers, we're like, oh, that's a fantastic idea.
Downton n Abbey, tra la la la. Well, there's so
much more to it than just you know, happy, go
lucky Downton Nabbey. Household. Well in reading all of the
stuff that we read about domestic service of every stripe
(01:37):
you know, in in all these regions throughout time. My
my main takeaway was just that really, I mean, domestic
service exists and has existed to kind of give this
appearance of leisure for the upper classes in particular, um,
especially you know, in in the era that we're talking
(01:58):
about with Downton Abbey. Um, this whole like, oh, we
don't have to lift a finger, we're just lying about Well,
it was interesting too. Um. I was listening to Fresh
Air recently on NPR and they were interviewing the Dont
Nabby creator, Julian Fellows, and he was talking about how
they were going over the differences in address where obviously,
(02:20):
you know, Lady Mary's Lady Mary, whereas O'Brien's just O'Brien.
We don't even know her first name, and that's because
of the class difference. And Julian Fellows was talking about how,
you know, some of the appeal of the show is
tied up in that, in terms of this comfort that
people find in everyone knowing their place and in down
(02:42):
nabby terms, maybe that's a little bit more approachable and
like easier to stomach. But then when you start talking
about domestic service and people knowing their place, when we
start talking about the United States, oh boy, does it
get so much more complicated because race becomes such a
huge factor in that as well. But let's start over
(03:03):
in the UK, because we're gonna focus largely on the
UK and the US for this, and let's talk about
domestic service in Britain. Yeah, it really pervaded Britain's economic, social,
and cultural life. And one of the major sources of
our information is Lucy. It's a lap of Cambridge. She
(03:26):
read a book called Knowing Their Place Domestic Service in
twentieth century Britain, and she says that during the first
half of the twentieth century, domestic service that sector employed
the largest numbers of women of any labor market sector
in Britain. Yeah, and perhaps because of the that huge
the the impact of that industry, she writes that domestic
(03:49):
service has served as a foundational narrative among the stories
British people tell about the last century and it's changes.
And it's true because you see those numbers going down,
for instance, um as the schooling ages rise. Essentially it's
more opportunities in school and work become open to women,
(04:12):
be their numbers in domestic service also shrink. Yeah, and
in the Victorian era, in particular, having butler's, maid's, housekeepers, chauffeurs,
this was all a sign of respectability. So it really
wasn't just your aristocrats and your royals who had these
teams of of servants. It was it was really anyone
(04:32):
with a little money who could hire a team to
do all this work around the house for them. Now,
the lat does point out that the lower middle classes
tended to not be able to afford such a big team,
so they might only have one maid who was expected
to do everything right, and at that time, being that
made being the do it all made for a lower
(04:53):
middle class home was considered the worst possible job you
could get, whereas working at Downton n Abby would be
a good gig because you're working for wealthy people, you
have a team of people who all have duties delegated
to them, whereas if you're employed by and not quite
as wealthy family, you're going to be doing so much
more in your hours would be horrendous. Kind of like
being a domestic service worker today. Yeah, Well, and rank
(05:16):
rank played a big part among the domestic servants. Also
there were senior servants like Carson, the butler at Downton,
who have a lot of power and take everything very seriously.
They sort of have the run of the house and
make sure everything is moving smoothly. And I thought it
was interesting. I didn't know this, but prior to the
Victorian era there wasn't necessarily a really standard domestic service uniform.
(05:40):
It was the Victorians, those wily old Victorians, who came
up with the standard black dress and white apron. And
this whole thing was, as you can imagine, to disguise
personal identities. Like let's let them fade into the background
and just do their their domestic work around the house.
We don't notice them. Their uniforms just set them apart.
But there's always this tension, it seems like, between the
(06:04):
domestic service workers and the people who are employing them.
Because take for instance, in eighteen nine, when domestic service
is still huge, you have the publication of and this
is coming from the economists where they're talking about it,
the publication of the servant problem, an attempt at its
solution that talks about cases of quote unquote disease and
(06:26):
deformity caused by the inefficiency and carelessness of nurses and nursemaids,
bold faced girls, and employment agencies with the cheeked question
perspective employers about hours and perks, essentially people not minding
their place. But then after World War One, the servant
(06:46):
problem becomes not so much. You know, all these women
saying hey, I want more uh specified job duties, but
saying hey, I'm going to find a job somewhere else,
not cleaning up your mess. Yeah. World War One all
so really changed the landscape. It offered women increased opportunities
in the paid labor markets, so retailing clerical work ended
(07:06):
up leading to a dramatic fall in the number of
residential servants. And in the period nineteen fourteen to nineteen
eighteen there was an estimated two million women replacing men
in employment. And this is coming from Joanna Burke, Professor
Joanna Burke for BBC History writing about this and the
proportion of women in total employment during this time jumps
(07:29):
from in July nineteen fourteen to thirty seven in November
nineteen eighteen. And then once we have World War Two
and the rise of the quote unquote servantless home among
the middle class, in particular. You see the major drop
as well in domestic service because you have things like
labor saving devices and more uncluttered furniture stylings to essentially
(07:53):
make the upkeep of your home easier. This is also
when we're seeing the rise of things like home cann
mixed household engineering, turning home up keep into a science.
But it's still highly gendered, especially in the UK with
products like Susan mops, Sheila clothes errors and marigold rubber
(08:15):
gloves and it it had been i mean very gendered
leading up to this anyway. Um, according to the LAP again,
between and nineteen thirty one, the number of men employed
as indoor domestic servants did rise, but more than worked
in institutional services like hotels and schools as opposed to
(08:37):
being the nursemaid or the maid in the house. Well yeah,
and we'll talk about this later too, but that comes
up again with you know, janitors or men maids are women?
Why is that a lot of times it has to
do with the indoor versus the outdoor. The domestic sphere
is where women's work happens, and in these large homes
(08:57):
it is the women of the house. The mistress is
who are overseeing all of these employees, not the uh,
you know, the Lord Grantham's. But World War two definitely
ushered in some changes, and the idea of quote unquote
doing for oneself became more acceptable among upper and middle
class families, and the media sort of lashed onto this also,
(09:19):
but it quote it was bolstered by the rising status
of a class neutral housewife identity. And this, this identity
that's rising is accompanied by, like Christen was saying, a
rebranding of domestic work as scientific. I thought it was
fascinating that even in the nineteen sixties you have ready
made food being marketed to quote fill the gap left
(09:40):
by the vanished race of servants, and the nineteen seventies,
the Times of London was still referring to certain recipes
as quote unquote servantless dishes. And yeah, well a lot
of that whole attitude about servants was, like we said,
holding on. One thing that was changing was the ethnic factor.
And Uh elaborates that in the late twentieth century, ethnic
(10:03):
differences became more of a significant feature among domestic service
workers than did gender. As more Eastern European immigrants arrived
in Britain and so by nineteen fifty one, and I
know this is going back, but by nineteen fifty one,
the men in particular employed in indoor domestic service were
mostly foreign. Yeah. And the this whole immigrant factor plays
(10:24):
a huge role two in the patterns of domestic service
in the United States, because if you're looking at the
late nineteenth century in UH the in the North, especially
among upper middle classes in the US, a lot of
times it's Irish and German immigrants who are working in
domestic service. But as soon as larger factories start to open,
(10:48):
they scam and go for the factory jobs, and those
domestic service jobs are largely taken over by black women.
In the nineteen forties, black women accounted for sixty of
all domestic service jobs. Yeah, and there was a really
interesting article at in j dot com talking about this
particular domestic service work in New Jersey, the state of
(11:11):
New Jersey, and you know Christo mansioned factories and how
a lot of the like Irish immigrants skitaddled and went
to the factories. But this article says factory floors and
store counters were mostly closed to African American women and
so they faced the double barreled discrimination against their race
and gender that funneled them into that domestic work. And
so they point out that in nineteen forty, and this
(11:33):
is just a New Jersey, seventy two point three percent
of the thirty two thousand black women were domestic service workers,
and by nineteen fifty in the state of black women
still worked in private service. Now. I feel like in
the US, though, perhaps because of books that were entered
into movies like The Help, um, a lot of times
(11:55):
when we think about black women in domestic service, we're
thinking about the South in particular, right, And historians of
Vanessa May and Rebecca Sharpless, Uh, we're responding to The
Help and the popularity of The Help, because that book
got a lot of criticism for for how it was written,
how it presented, you know, racial issues and whatever. And
(12:17):
you know, we we won't even really Yeah, I mean,
I said, well, I mean essentially having you know, the
white character Skeeter uh sort of rescue these helpless black women. Yeah.
But Vanessa ma and Rebecca Sharpless on the u n
C Press blog point out that there there are some
things that were left out, some issues that came along
(12:37):
with being an African American maid in white homes in
the South during this time. One of those things being
violence that black women experienced at the hands of white
men and whose homes they worked, because in the book
and the Help, most of the violence is seen at home,
so when when the women go home, it's at the
hands of their husband. And also the issue of organization,
(12:58):
formal organization and activism, and there are several examples that
they cite, like Jackson, Mississippi, in eighteen sixty six, black
maids went on strike for higher wages. In New York
in nineteen thirty four, domestic worker Dora Jones led the
formation of the Domestic Workers Organization, and in Atlanta in
nineteen sixty eight Dorothy Bolden formed the National Domestic Workers
(13:19):
Union of America. But the same time, there are these
very problematic relationships going on, particularly between female domestic workers
and the women of the house who are essentially their bosses.
And we read about this in the book The Maid Narratives,
Black Domestics and White Families and the Jim Crow South
by Katherine Van Warmer and Charlotte A. Sutteth, And they
(13:42):
cite sociologists Judith Rollins, who characterizes the relationship between black
Southern maids and mistresses as maternalism and a unique form
of exploitation because these women are often infantalized. Um, they
are talk down to. They if they are educated and
(14:02):
they are intelligent, those are not qualities that they tend
to let shine because a lot of times the white
mistresses don't want to don't want to hear any of that.
They just want, you know, essentially like docile workers, to
do what they're told. And there's also to this um
plays into something called the happy slave fantasy, where you
(14:23):
know everybody's just getting along. You think about gone with
the wind, and the whole idea of the happy mammy
just taking care of things and going about her business. Right, Well,
that yeah, that idea of the faithful slave narrative and
as they say, clinging to mammy, just like this generation
of people who were raised by blackmaids not wanting to
(14:45):
let go of that dynamic. But I mean that dynamic,
as cherished as it might have been by a generation
who was raised by these maids, it really was sort
of based on a relationship of forced dependency, as Van
Warmer and Setteth point out, and not to mention the
whole unequal social etiquette. And I mean this is not
just blackmaids in the American South. This is also going
(15:06):
back to down Navvy era and domestic service in Britain.
Just you know, like Kristen said, Lady Mary was Lady Mary,
but O'Brien was just O'Brien. So there is that unequal like, well,
I'm gonna kind of treat you like family, and you're
going to take care of my most intimate needs, but
you're still way lower down on the on the totem
pole than I am. Yeah, and the Civil rights movement
(15:27):
in the United States did a lot to address issues
of inherent racism and bigotry that was tied into that, uh,
you know, the whole knowing your place kind of thing.
But the domestic service sector is still problematic today because
of the nature of the work. You are going to
someone else's house, and a lot of times the boundaries
(15:52):
between you know, your job and everything else are are
very fuzzy, and the intimacy of being in someone else's home,
in their domain, possibly interacting with the family, possibly taking
care of and raising children, things can get complicated and
abusive very quickly. Yeah. Well, but also I mean the
whole system if unless you're at a UM, well even
(16:14):
if you are at a corporate made service type thing.
UM A lot of the times women and men who
were in this type of work are sort of lost
because they're not accounted for or they're being paid under
the table, and so they're not necessarily going to benefit
from any sort of labor laws or time off or
(16:37):
you know, any sort of bonus that being in the
regular market would afford you. Well, and as you as
you talked about Caroline um how in the the UK
after World War Two, when a lot of those domestic
service jobs that were held by h by women British
women who then went off to find other jobs that
were then open to them, and immigrants took the place.
(17:00):
We see a similar thing going on the United States.
UM In for instance, only seven percent of those domestic
service jobs were still being held by black women. But
now we have documented and undocumented immigrants who are taking
over a large proportion of domestic work. And especially for
undocumented immigrants, this is opening up a host of problems
(17:21):
because uh, you know, there's fear of deportation if they
speak out if things are getting abusive, essentially being taken
advantage of Yeah, and this was just on NPR. They
were just talking about this. This was a report compiled
by the u N International Labor Organization that this is
the first report of its kind that they've done that
(17:43):
found that nearly there are nearly fifty three million domestic
workers in the world, and the overwhelming majority are women,
and the overwhelming majority are not protected by labor laws.
And the estimate of that number, estimate of fifty three million,
they point out, is probably low because it really depends
on the country's reporting it, and the report actually excludes
(18:06):
those below the age of fifteen, so the number could
be a lot higher as far as women and men
who are working in private service now for the maids
and housekeeping cleaners as they are classified um in the
United States. To get some more concrete data on what
that occupational outlook is, we can go to the Bureau
(18:26):
of Labor Statistics and find some not so heartening news.
For instance, in two thousand, tend the media and pay
for a maide in the US was only nineteen thousand,
three hundred dollars per year, which translates to per hour.
And the places where people in this occupation are often
employed is like traveler accommodations such as hotels, casinos, and
(18:50):
like hospitals, building services which includes janitors, landscapers, upholstery services,
things like that, but also nursing care facilities and in
homes for the elderly. And it turns out that the
top paying states for this job are Hawaii, d C.
Okay not a state but an area, UH, New York, Nevada,
(19:11):
and Massachusetts. Yeah, and the National Domestic Workers Alliance just
published a national survey in two thousand twelve, also the
first of its kind. It seems like a lot more
attention is finally starting to be paid to domestic service workers.
And I have a sampler of more depressing statistics um because,
for instance, sixty seven percent of living workers living workers
(19:35):
also are at most risk of exploitation. UH. Sixty seven
percent of them are paid below minimum wage, with a
median hourly wage of six fifteen. Sixty don't have health insurance.
Only four percent, by contrast, have employer provided insurance. Thirty
eight percent of workers suffered from work related risk shoulder, elbow,
(19:56):
or hit pain. A third of them have less than
twelve years of schooling. UH. And and and I could go
on and on and on. It is not uh, it's
not a good situation. No, but well, but it definitely
is not going to slow down anytime soon. I mean,
just because they don't have the protections they need doesn't
mean people are going to start protesting and leaving. UM.
(20:17):
They predict that they need for these domestic workers and maids, housekeepers,
et cetera will just continue to grow because more women
are joining the labor force, they're saying, and our population
is aging. Yeah, and the situation even gets worse if
you are an ethnic minority or UM an undocumented immigrant UM.
(20:39):
This is also coming from the National Domestic Workers Alliance UM.
Thirty six percent of the people they surveyed were undocumented,
and if you are undocumented, you are typically paid less. UM,
you're less likely to complain about poor working conditions for
fear of deportation. As I mentioned earlier, and listen to this,
the median hourly wage was two dollars and since more
(21:00):
for white workers compared to Latina's and that's documented UM
and a dollar fourteen higher than black workers. So there's
still this kind of ethnic discrimination that's going on. Yeah,
I mean, there's also the language barrier issue that comes
with people coming to this country and going into this
type of work. Many workers who don't speak good English
(21:22):
might be unaware that they even have any rights and
are therefore more vulnerable to exploitation and abuse. Yeah, and so,
I mean, while it is certainly fun and escapist to
watch Downton Abbey and you know, witness these little relationships
between the upstairs and downstairs and all of the intrigue
in scandal that goes along with that, um, the fact
(21:44):
of the matter is there is a very real problem
with domestic service that's going on, not just in the
US but obviously around around the world. I mean, it's
not all doom and gloom. I mean it is. It
is pretty bad when you think about undocumented workers being
taken a manage of or abused. But the New York
Domestic Workers Bill of Rights was the first US legislation
(22:06):
of its kind, and it sets enforceable standards for overtime pay,
rest days, pay days off, and other worker protections. Because
I mean, when you think about this work, it's not
just that you're working all day long and having to
drive all over town to all these different houses, but
it's just like physically challenging work. I mean, you were
really hurting your body. Um. Also another another good piece
(22:30):
of news is that in twleven, the International Labor Organization
that we mentioned earlier adopted Convention number one eight nine,
establishing for the first time global Labor Standards for the
Treatment of domestic workers. Yeah, and and those kind of
standards are so imperative. Um. Just to wrap things up,
because this is coming from Bridget Anderson, who wrote Doing
(22:50):
the Dirty Work, The Global Politics of Domestic Labor. Um.
She says, the problem for the worker is that her
work is not definable in terms of task performed, nor
is there any objective standard of cleanliness or tidiness that
she must meet. The standard is imposed by the household manager,
and that standard can always be raised. So things to
(23:12):
think about while you're watching Downton Nabbey. Did your family
ever have a maid or housekeeper? We briefly had a
maid who came once a week on Monday's. Her name
was Mary um and yeah, I mean I remember her
coming for a few years. Yeah, my my parents, we
I grew up with pat coming to our house. I
think it was every week. And then once I got
(23:34):
older and wasn't making so much of a mess, I
guess uh, she started coming less frequently and now they
have someone who comes I think every once every two weeks. Yeah,
So I mean it's I I could not do that
all day, every day. I mean, that is physically punishing work.
I mean, and obviously like these these jobs are employing
(23:54):
people who need jobs. It's not an argument to get
rid of the domestic service, um, but there is a
lot of reform that is obviously needed in a big way. So, UM,
folks who are in domestic service, if you're listening, write us,
let us know your thoughts on this stuff. Um. Anybody
else welcome to rise as well. Mom Stuff at Discovery
(24:17):
dot com is where you can send your letters. But Kristen,
before we get to listener letters, well, I've got a
letter here from Ashley in response to our episode on
mothers in law, and she writes, I'm a lesbian and
I've been with my partner for almost four years, and
(24:37):
both of our mothers are excellent mothers in law. They're
very progressive, liberal and strong willed women who didn't miss
a beat when we respectively on our own before we
were even dating, came out to them as ladies who
love the ladies. My partner's mom is completely inclusive of
my being part of her family, calls me and emails
me whenever she's concerned about my well being. My partner's
(25:00):
family even came up with the affectionate term daughter outlaw,
highlighting that though a relationship isn't legal, it damn well
should be all. So thank you to Ashley for writing in.
And I have a letter here from Jenna, who also
wanted to share her stories about her mother in law experience.
(25:20):
She says that my situation is one that I'm sure
a lot of people in the younger generations have two
mothers in law. My husband's parents divorced when he was
in middle school, and they have both remarried. They couldn't
be more opposite. My husband's stepmother is amazing, down to earth,
loving and supportive. I often call her up when I
need help or advice on things in the domestic arena.
She's always willing to help out, but never give unsolicited advice.
(25:44):
The love she shows me and my husband feels unconditional
and altruistic. My husband's biological mother, on the other hand,
can only be described as a real piece of work.
She's selfish, manipulative, and complicated. When I share stories about
her among my girlfriends, I always win the monster in
law Award. Every gift and kind gesture is full of
hidden meanings and motivations, and every family vacation is a
(26:07):
dreaded ordeal. It's exhausting. I guess I have the best
and worst of the mother in law situation. I'd like
to offer a little advice for all the mothers in
law out there. Next time you criticize us, please remember
that we're new at this. Life is tough, and we're
just doing the best we can. And thanks to Jenna
and Ashley and everyone else for writing into mom Stuff
(26:27):
at Discovery dot com. You can send your letters there,
or you can hit us up on Facebook, Like us
while you're at it, and follow us on Twitter at
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And if you'd like to get a little bit smarter
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website how stuff works dot com for more on this
(26:53):
and thousands of other topics. How stuff works dot com.
Welcome to stuff Mom never told you From house stuff
works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm
Kristen and I'm Caroline, and uh, let's just go ahead
and start off by saying two words Downton Abbey. Um,
(00:25):
lady Mary, doppelganger of mine. Gonna go ahead and own
up to that. Although O'Brien has a has a soft
spot in my heart because of those curls, she's got
the best, the most iconic hairstyle on television right now. Yeah, now,
I love I love the head housekeeper woman lady what's
(00:49):
her name. Uh it's not Mrs Pat Moore, No, that's
a cook. Yeah, but I love her. Okay, So we're
talking about Downton Abbey because it is kind of a
very romanticized look at the upstairs downstairs, the vision of
labor between wealthier people and domestic service, all those domestic workers.
(01:13):
And when we thought about doing an episode on on
maids and domestic workers, we're like, oh, that's a fantastic idea.
Downton n Abbey, tra la la la. Well, there's so
much more to it than just you know, happy, go
lucky Downton Nabbey. Household. Well in reading all of the
stuff that we read about domestic service of every stripe
(01:37):
you know, in in all these regions throughout time. My
my main takeaway was just that really, I mean, domestic
service exists and has existed to kind of give this
appearance of leisure for the upper classes in particular, um,
especially you know, in in the era that we're talking
(01:58):
about with Downton Abbey. Um, this whole like, oh, we
don't have to lift a finger, we're just lying about Well,
it was interesting too. Um. I was listening to Fresh
Air recently on NPR and they were interviewing the Dont
Nabby creator, Julian Fellows, and he was talking about how
they were going over the differences in address where obviously,
(02:20):
you know, Lady Mary's Lady Mary, whereas O'Brien's just O'Brien.
We don't even know her first name, and that's because
of the class difference. And Julian Fellows was talking about how,
you know, some of the appeal of the show is
tied up in that, in terms of this comfort that
people find in everyone knowing their place and in down
(02:42):
nabby terms, maybe that's a little bit more approachable and
like easier to stomach. But then when you start talking
about domestic service and people knowing their place, when we
start talking about the United States, oh boy, does it
get so much more complicated because race becomes such a
huge factor in that as well. But let's start over
(03:03):
in the UK, because we're gonna focus largely on the
UK and the US for this, and let's talk about
domestic service in Britain. Yeah, it really pervaded Britain's economic, social,
and cultural life. And one of the major sources of
our information is Lucy. It's a lap of Cambridge. She
(03:26):
read a book called Knowing Their Place Domestic Service in
twentieth century Britain, and she says that during the first
half of the twentieth century, domestic service that sector employed
the largest numbers of women of any labor market sector
in Britain. Yeah, and perhaps because of the that huge
the the impact of that industry, she writes that domestic
(03:49):
service has served as a foundational narrative among the stories
British people tell about the last century and it's changes.
And it's true because you see those numbers going down,
for instance, um as the schooling ages rise. Essentially it's
more opportunities in school and work become open to women,
(04:12):
be their numbers in domestic service also shrink. Yeah, and
in the Victorian era, in particular, having butler's, maid's, housekeepers, chauffeurs,
this was all a sign of respectability. So it really
wasn't just your aristocrats and your royals who had these
teams of of servants. It was it was really anyone
(04:32):
with a little money who could hire a team to
do all this work around the house for them. Now,
the lat does point out that the lower middle classes
tended to not be able to afford such a big team,
so they might only have one maid who was expected
to do everything right, and at that time, being that
made being the do it all made for a lower
(04:53):
middle class home was considered the worst possible job you
could get, whereas working at Downton n Abby would be
a good gig because you're working for wealthy people, you
have a team of people who all have duties delegated
to them, whereas if you're employed by and not quite
as wealthy family, you're going to be doing so much
more in your hours would be horrendous. Kind of like
being a domestic service worker today. Yeah, Well, and rank
(05:16):
rank played a big part among the domestic servants. Also
there were senior servants like Carson, the butler at Downton,
who have a lot of power and take everything very seriously.
They sort of have the run of the house and
make sure everything is moving smoothly. And I thought it
was interesting. I didn't know this, but prior to the
Victorian era there wasn't necessarily a really standard domestic service uniform.
(05:40):
It was the Victorians, those wily old Victorians, who came
up with the standard black dress and white apron. And
this whole thing was, as you can imagine, to disguise
personal identities. Like let's let them fade into the background
and just do their their domestic work around the house.
We don't notice them. Their uniforms just set them apart.
But there's always this tension, it seems like, between the
(06:04):
domestic service workers and the people who are employing them.
Because take for instance, in eighteen nine, when domestic service
is still huge, you have the publication of and this
is coming from the economists where they're talking about it,
the publication of the servant problem, an attempt at its
solution that talks about cases of quote unquote disease and
(06:26):
deformity caused by the inefficiency and carelessness of nurses and nursemaids,
bold faced girls, and employment agencies with the cheeked question
perspective employers about hours and perks, essentially people not minding
their place. But then after World War One, the servant
(06:46):
problem becomes not so much. You know, all these women
saying hey, I want more uh specified job duties, but
saying hey, I'm going to find a job somewhere else,
not cleaning up your mess. Yeah. World War One all
so really changed the landscape. It offered women increased opportunities
in the paid labor markets, so retailing clerical work ended
(07:06):
up leading to a dramatic fall in the number of
residential servants. And in the period nineteen fourteen to nineteen
eighteen there was an estimated two million women replacing men
in employment. And this is coming from Joanna Burke, Professor
Joanna Burke for BBC History writing about this and the
proportion of women in total employment during this time jumps
(07:29):
from in July nineteen fourteen to thirty seven in November
nineteen eighteen. And then once we have World War Two
and the rise of the quote unquote servantless home among
the middle class, in particular. You see the major drop
as well in domestic service because you have things like
labor saving devices and more uncluttered furniture stylings to essentially
(07:53):
make the upkeep of your home easier. This is also
when we're seeing the rise of things like home cann
mixed household engineering, turning home up keep into a science.
But it's still highly gendered, especially in the UK with
products like Susan mops, Sheila clothes errors and marigold rubber
(08:15):
gloves and it it had been i mean very gendered
leading up to this anyway. Um, according to the LAP again,
between and nineteen thirty one, the number of men employed
as indoor domestic servants did rise, but more than worked
in institutional services like hotels and schools as opposed to
(08:37):
being the nursemaid or the maid in the house. Well yeah,
and we'll talk about this later too, but that comes
up again with you know, janitors or men maids are women?
Why is that a lot of times it has to
do with the indoor versus the outdoor. The domestic sphere
is where women's work happens, and in these large homes
(08:57):
it is the women of the house. The mistress is
who are overseeing all of these employees, not the uh,
you know, the Lord Grantham's. But World War two definitely
ushered in some changes, and the idea of quote unquote
doing for oneself became more acceptable among upper and middle
class families, and the media sort of lashed onto this also,
(09:19):
but it quote it was bolstered by the rising status
of a class neutral housewife identity. And this, this identity
that's rising is accompanied by, like Christen was saying, a
rebranding of domestic work as scientific. I thought it was
fascinating that even in the nineteen sixties you have ready
made food being marketed to quote fill the gap left
(09:40):
by the vanished race of servants, and the nineteen seventies,
the Times of London was still referring to certain recipes
as quote unquote servantless dishes. And yeah, well a lot
of that whole attitude about servants was, like we said,
holding on. One thing that was changing was the ethnic factor.
And Uh elaborates that in the late twentieth century, ethnic
(10:03):
differences became more of a significant feature among domestic service
workers than did gender. As more Eastern European immigrants arrived
in Britain and so by nineteen fifty one, and I
know this is going back, but by nineteen fifty one,
the men in particular employed in indoor domestic service were
mostly foreign. Yeah. And the this whole immigrant factor plays
(10:24):
a huge role two in the patterns of domestic service
in the United States, because if you're looking at the
late nineteenth century in UH the in the North, especially
among upper middle classes in the US, a lot of
times it's Irish and German immigrants who are working in
domestic service. But as soon as larger factories start to open,
(10:48):
they scam and go for the factory jobs, and those
domestic service jobs are largely taken over by black women.
In the nineteen forties, black women accounted for sixty of
all domestic service jobs. Yeah, and there was a really
interesting article at in j dot com talking about this
particular domestic service work in New Jersey, the state of
(11:11):
New Jersey, and you know Christo mansioned factories and how
a lot of the like Irish immigrants skitaddled and went
to the factories. But this article says factory floors and
store counters were mostly closed to African American women and
so they faced the double barreled discrimination against their race
and gender that funneled them into that domestic work. And
so they point out that in nineteen forty, and this
(11:33):
is just a New Jersey, seventy two point three percent
of the thirty two thousand black women were domestic service workers,
and by nineteen fifty in the state of black women
still worked in private service. Now. I feel like in
the US, though, perhaps because of books that were entered
into movies like The Help, um, a lot of times
(11:55):
when we think about black women in domestic service, we're
thinking about the South in particular, right, And historians of
Vanessa May and Rebecca Sharpless, Uh, we're responding to The
Help and the popularity of The Help, because that book
got a lot of criticism for for how it was written,
how it presented, you know, racial issues and whatever. And
(12:17):
you know, we we won't even really Yeah, I mean,
I said, well, I mean essentially having you know, the
white character Skeeter uh sort of rescue these helpless black women. Yeah.
But Vanessa ma and Rebecca Sharpless on the u n
C Press blog point out that there there are some
things that were left out, some issues that came along
(12:37):
with being an African American maid in white homes in
the South during this time. One of those things being
violence that black women experienced at the hands of white
men and whose homes they worked, because in the book
and the Help, most of the violence is seen at home,
so when when the women go home, it's at the
hands of their husband. And also the issue of organization,
(12:58):
formal organization and activism, and there are several examples that
they cite, like Jackson, Mississippi, in eighteen sixty six, black
maids went on strike for higher wages. In New York
in nineteen thirty four, domestic worker Dora Jones led the
formation of the Domestic Workers Organization, and in Atlanta in
nineteen sixty eight Dorothy Bolden formed the National Domestic Workers
(13:19):
Union of America. But the same time, there are these
very problematic relationships going on, particularly between female domestic workers
and the women of the house who are essentially their bosses.
And we read about this in the book The Maid Narratives,
Black Domestics and White Families and the Jim Crow South
by Katherine Van Warmer and Charlotte A. Sutteth, And they
(13:42):
cite sociologists Judith Rollins, who characterizes the relationship between black
Southern maids and mistresses as maternalism and a unique form
of exploitation because these women are often infantalized. Um, they
are talk down to. They if they are educated and
(14:02):
they are intelligent, those are not qualities that they tend
to let shine because a lot of times the white
mistresses don't want to don't want to hear any of that.
They just want, you know, essentially like docile workers, to
do what they're told. And there's also to this um
plays into something called the happy slave fantasy, where you
(14:23):
know everybody's just getting along. You think about gone with
the wind, and the whole idea of the happy mammy
just taking care of things and going about her business. Right, Well,
that yeah, that idea of the faithful slave narrative and
as they say, clinging to mammy, just like this generation
of people who were raised by blackmaids not wanting to
(14:45):
let go of that dynamic. But I mean that dynamic,
as cherished as it might have been by a generation
who was raised by these maids, it really was sort
of based on a relationship of forced dependency, as Van
Warmer and Setteth point out, and not to mention the
whole unequal social etiquette. And I mean this is not
just blackmaids in the American South. This is also going
(15:06):
back to down Navvy era and domestic service in Britain.
Just you know, like Kristen said, Lady Mary was Lady Mary,
but O'Brien was just O'Brien. So there is that unequal like, well,
I'm gonna kind of treat you like family, and you're
going to take care of my most intimate needs, but
you're still way lower down on the on the totem
pole than I am. Yeah, and the Civil rights movement
(15:27):
in the United States did a lot to address issues
of inherent racism and bigotry that was tied into that, uh,
you know, the whole knowing your place kind of thing.
But the domestic service sector is still problematic today because
of the nature of the work. You are going to
someone else's house, and a lot of times the boundaries
(15:52):
between you know, your job and everything else are are
very fuzzy, and the intimacy of being in someone else's home,
in their domain, possibly interacting with the family, possibly taking
care of and raising children, things can get complicated and
abusive very quickly. Yeah. Well, but also I mean the
whole system if unless you're at a UM, well even
(16:14):
if you are at a corporate made service type thing.
UM A lot of the times women and men who
were in this type of work are sort of lost
because they're not accounted for or they're being paid under
the table, and so they're not necessarily going to benefit
from any sort of labor laws or time off or
(16:37):
you know, any sort of bonus that being in the
regular market would afford you. Well, and as you as
you talked about Caroline um how in the the UK
after World War Two, when a lot of those domestic
service jobs that were held by h by women British
women who then went off to find other jobs that
were then open to them, and immigrants took the place.
(17:00):
We see a similar thing going on the United States.
UM In for instance, only seven percent of those domestic
service jobs were still being held by black women. But
now we have documented and undocumented immigrants who are taking
over a large proportion of domestic work. And especially for
undocumented immigrants, this is opening up a host of problems
(17:21):
because uh, you know, there's fear of deportation if they
speak out if things are getting abusive, essentially being taken
advantage of Yeah, and this was just on NPR. They
were just talking about this. This was a report compiled
by the u N International Labor Organization that this is
the first report of its kind that they've done that
(17:43):
found that nearly there are nearly fifty three million domestic
workers in the world, and the overwhelming majority are women,
and the overwhelming majority are not protected by labor laws.
And the estimate of that number, estimate of fifty three million,
they point out, is probably low because it really depends
on the country's reporting it, and the report actually excludes
(18:06):
those below the age of fifteen, so the number could
be a lot higher as far as women and men
who are working in private service now for the maids
and housekeeping cleaners as they are classified um in the
United States. To get some more concrete data on what
that occupational outlook is, we can go to the Bureau
(18:26):
of Labor Statistics and find some not so heartening news.
For instance, in two thousand, tend the media and pay
for a maide in the US was only nineteen thousand,
three hundred dollars per year, which translates to per hour.
And the places where people in this occupation are often
employed is like traveler accommodations such as hotels, casinos, and
(18:50):
like hospitals, building services which includes janitors, landscapers, upholstery services,
things like that, but also nursing care facilities and in
homes for the elderly. And it turns out that the
top paying states for this job are Hawaii, d C.
Okay not a state but an area, UH, New York, Nevada,
(19:11):
and Massachusetts. Yeah, and the National Domestic Workers Alliance just
published a national survey in two thousand twelve, also the
first of its kind. It seems like a lot more
attention is finally starting to be paid to domestic service workers.
And I have a sampler of more depressing statistics um because,
for instance, sixty seven percent of living workers living workers
(19:35):
also are at most risk of exploitation. UH. Sixty seven
percent of them are paid below minimum wage, with a
median hourly wage of six fifteen. Sixty don't have health insurance.
Only four percent, by contrast, have employer provided insurance. Thirty
eight percent of workers suffered from work related risk shoulder, elbow,
(19:56):
or hit pain. A third of them have less than
twelve years of schooling. UH. And and and I could go
on and on and on. It is not uh, it's
not a good situation. No, but well, but it definitely
is not going to slow down anytime soon. I mean,
just because they don't have the protections they need doesn't
mean people are going to start protesting and leaving. UM.
(20:17):
They predict that they need for these domestic workers and maids, housekeepers,
et cetera will just continue to grow because more women
are joining the labor force, they're saying, and our population
is aging. Yeah, and the situation even gets worse if
you are an ethnic minority or UM an undocumented immigrant UM.
(20:39):
This is also coming from the National Domestic Workers Alliance UM.
Thirty six percent of the people they surveyed were undocumented,
and if you are undocumented, you are typically paid less. UM,
you're less likely to complain about poor working conditions for
fear of deportation. As I mentioned earlier, and listen to this,
the median hourly wage was two dollars and since more
(21:00):
for white workers compared to Latina's and that's documented UM
and a dollar fourteen higher than black workers. So there's
still this kind of ethnic discrimination that's going on. Yeah,
I mean, there's also the language barrier issue that comes
with people coming to this country and going into this
type of work. Many workers who don't speak good English
(21:22):
might be unaware that they even have any rights and
are therefore more vulnerable to exploitation and abuse. Yeah, and so,
I mean, while it is certainly fun and escapist to
watch Downton Abbey and you know, witness these little relationships
between the upstairs and downstairs and all of the intrigue
in scandal that goes along with that, um, the fact
(21:44):
of the matter is there is a very real problem
with domestic service that's going on, not just in the
US but obviously around around the world. I mean, it's
not all doom and gloom. I mean it is. It
is pretty bad when you think about undocumented workers being
taken a manage of or abused. But the New York
Domestic Workers Bill of Rights was the first US legislation
(22:06):
of its kind, and it sets enforceable standards for overtime pay,
rest days, pay days off, and other worker protections. Because
I mean, when you think about this work, it's not
just that you're working all day long and having to
drive all over town to all these different houses, but
it's just like physically challenging work. I mean, you were
really hurting your body. Um. Also another another good piece
(22:30):
of news is that in twleven, the International Labor Organization
that we mentioned earlier adopted Convention number one eight nine,
establishing for the first time global Labor Standards for the
Treatment of domestic workers. Yeah, and and those kind of
standards are so imperative. Um. Just to wrap things up,
because this is coming from Bridget Anderson, who wrote Doing
(22:50):
the Dirty Work, The Global Politics of Domestic Labor. Um.
She says, the problem for the worker is that her
work is not definable in terms of task performed, nor
is there any objective standard of cleanliness or tidiness that
she must meet. The standard is imposed by the household manager,
and that standard can always be raised. So things to
(23:12):
think about while you're watching Downton Nabbey. Did your family
ever have a maid or housekeeper? We briefly had a
maid who came once a week on Monday's. Her name
was Mary um and yeah, I mean I remember her
coming for a few years. Yeah, my my parents, we
I grew up with pat coming to our house. I
think it was every week. And then once I got
(23:34):
older and wasn't making so much of a mess, I
guess uh, she started coming less frequently and now they
have someone who comes I think every once every two weeks. Yeah,
So I mean it's I I could not do that
all day, every day. I mean, that is physically punishing work.
I mean, and obviously like these these jobs are employing
(23:54):
people who need jobs. It's not an argument to get
rid of the domestic service, um, but there is a
lot of reform that is obviously needed in a big way. So, UM,
folks who are in domestic service, if you're listening, write us,
let us know your thoughts on this stuff. Um. Anybody
else welcome to rise as well. Mom Stuff at Discovery
(24:17):
dot com is where you can send your letters. But Kristen,
before we get to listener letters, well, I've got a
letter here from Ashley in response to our episode on
mothers in law, and she writes, I'm a lesbian and
I've been with my partner for almost four years, and
(24:37):
both of our mothers are excellent mothers in law. They're
very progressive, liberal and strong willed women who didn't miss
a beat when we respectively on our own before we
were even dating, came out to them as ladies who
love the ladies. My partner's mom is completely inclusive of
my being part of her family, calls me and emails
me whenever she's concerned about my well being. My partner's
(25:00):
family even came up with the affectionate term daughter outlaw,
highlighting that though a relationship isn't legal, it damn well
should be all. So thank you to Ashley for writing in.
And I have a letter here from Jenna, who also
wanted to share her stories about her mother in law experience.
(25:20):
She says that my situation is one that I'm sure
a lot of people in the younger generations have two
mothers in law. My husband's parents divorced when he was
in middle school, and they have both remarried. They couldn't
be more opposite. My husband's stepmother is amazing, down to earth,
loving and supportive. I often call her up when I
need help or advice on things in the domestic arena.
She's always willing to help out, but never give unsolicited advice.
(25:44):
The love she shows me and my husband feels unconditional
and altruistic. My husband's biological mother, on the other hand,
can only be described as a real piece of work.
She's selfish, manipulative, and complicated. When I share stories about
her among my girlfriends, I always win the monster in
law Award. Every gift and kind gesture is full of
hidden meanings and motivations, and every family vacation is a
(26:07):
dreaded ordeal. It's exhausting. I guess I have the best
and worst of the mother in law situation. I'd like
to offer a little advice for all the mothers in
law out there. Next time you criticize us, please remember
that we're new at this. Life is tough, and we're
just doing the best we can. And thanks to Jenna
and Ashley and everyone else for writing into mom Stuff
(26:27):
at Discovery dot com. You can send your letters there,
or you can hit us up on Facebook, Like us
while you're at it, and follow us on Twitter at
mom Stuff Podcast. You can even follow us on Tumbler
where it's stuff I've never told you dot tumbler dot com.
And if you'd like to get a little bit smarter
this week, you know where to head. It's to our
website how stuff works dot com for more on this
(26:53):
and thousands of other topics. How stuff works dot com.
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