June 23, 2014 • 35 mins
When Lupita Nyong'o won her Academy Award in early 2014, she was widely hailed as an "exotic" starlet, despite her not-so-exotic rise to stardom. Cristen and Caroline explore the broader intersections of race and Western beauty constructs and the multilayerd problem of exoticizing non-white beauty.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to stuff Mom Never told you. From how Supports
dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Caroline
and I'm Kristen, and today we're talking about a rather
broad but important topic, which is the tendency of various
(00:23):
people to exotic size, non white beauty. So let me
break it down real quick. We came to this idea
because I was reading some tabloid magazines. I'm sorry, Okay,
I'm sorry. Hey, sometimes it's fun to read a tabloid.
But every time I go home to see Sally, she
hands me like this stack of tabloid magazines because she
(00:46):
religiously goes every Friday to the grocery store to buy
her tabloids. She would die if she heard me say this.
But anyway, so I'm flipping through and they're like two
months old, and one thing that I noticed was how
actress Lupia Niango has attracted so much praise and adoration.
And I'm looking at this and I'm thinking, that's great,
(01:06):
she's a talented actor. Since she's achieving the attention and
the praise that she deserves. Well, then I'm reading a
couple more magazines and then I start looking at the
Internet and I'm thinking this attention that she's getting is
kind of weird because it didn't it started to not
feel genuine. It started to feel like it was coming
from a place where people were tripping over themselves to
(01:32):
adore her and and heap adoration on her for strange reasons.
And then I started to think, are people just obsessed
with this actress because she's black? Well, and by people,
are you referring more specifically to white people, I am
referring more specifically to white people in this instance, white
(01:52):
people in entertainment media. But also the blog is Fear,
I mean, news probe rams anywhere that's talking about lupetea
Niango seems to be referring to her as some other worldly,
exotic beauty and what does that even mean? Yeah, it's
that word exotic that comes up a lot, which is
(02:14):
what we really wanted to dig into, and a lot
of our conversation in the in the first half of
this episode is going to focus on Lupeta because it
is Caroline such a perfect example of how culturally it's
It's like we're almost trying to consume her and figure
out like what what her beauty means for us, and uh,
(02:38):
just for a little bit of background. This might seem
a little dated, because Lupida's star really shot up during
Awards season earlier this year, when she was receiving award
after award and just looking stunning in general on so
many red carpets, and she ultimately received the Academy Award
for Best Supporting Actress for her role as Patsy in
(02:59):
Twelve Yours a Slave, and it was highly celebrated when
she looked incredible that night. She gave a very moving
speech and like you staid Caroline, the blogosphere he so
much deserved praise on her, but it was almost taken
to this next level. Particularly, I felt like it really
(03:20):
started to spiral into this huh, what are we really
talking about extent when people named her, you know, the
most beautiful woman in the world, which again like, of course,
like she's gorgeous. Her star is rising um and she
also got a contract with Landcombe Cosmetics, and it was
(03:42):
as if people just couldn't talk enough about her exotic beauty.
In particular, right, it seemed as if everybody, and I
mean I say everybody, I mainly do mean white people.
It seemed that a lot of white people were tripping
over themselves to say how beautiful she was, to to
talk about her acting chops, I don't know. It just didn't.
(04:05):
There was something off about it. There was something strange
and slightly disingenuous. Not that she doesn't deserve the praise,
not that she's not beautiful, but all of the compliments
seemed to focus on how different she was, right the
exoticism factor. For instance, the Daily Mail proclaimed her exotic
beauty and acting debut in twelve years of slave has
(04:25):
left both Hollywood and the fashion world breathless. Over at Forbes,
you have Niongo is the kind of star publicist dream about.
She has an exotic background. And then at Hollywood Reporter,
you have the fashion world appears ready to promote her beauty,
even if to some it seems exotic. Yeah. Over at
Salon in April, Aganda, Okayo called for everybody to stop
(04:50):
this whole exoticization, this whole other ring of this actress.
And she really rolled her eyes at that Hollywood Reporter story.
Um because the writer, the Hollywood Reporter writers seemed to
really be fretting about how in the world Lupete will
go on in Hollywood, how will she succeed, how will
she overcome her different nous and they wondered can a
(05:12):
black actress ever reached Julia roberts stature and the story
and okay O both name other African American actors and actresses,
but there they seem very concerned that Lupeta just can't
reach that upper echelon of acting the way that Julia
Roberts has well. And it's not so much the question
(05:35):
of will she post Oscar be able to continue, you know,
climbing the ranks to a list Hollywood because there has
been a problem it's called the Oscar curse for a
number of African American women in particular, who received Academy
Awards but then don't go on to get a number
of really great media roles after that. But the issue
(05:59):
there isn't so much in the color of their skin,
but rather a lack of meaty roles written and given
to women of color in Hollywood that aren't roles such
as housekeeper like someone in The Help, or a slave
like someone like Patsy in Twelve Years of Slave. Right. Yeah,
And it is that concern about roles which I think
(06:20):
that conversation is way more productive and justified than a
conversation about her skin color. Um. The Hollywood Reporter quoted
a studio executive talking about how there are so few
roles out there for women of color. Those roles are
not are just not being written, he said, And in
quoting a talent agent, uh, they said that for someone
(06:41):
who looks like her with a distinctively black African face,
maybe she's someone who can change the direction for darker
skin actresses, actresses who are definitely not European looking, but
it may require some forward looking director to push for her. Well,
the good news is it was recently announced that Lupida
is going to be in the newest Star Wars that's
(07:03):
coming up, so it doesn't seem like she is immediately
doomed for some kind of post Oscar slump. But there's
still that problematic issue of exotic sizing this beauty, because
the funny thing about it is everyone was sort of
falling over themselves and and praising the fact that the
(07:23):
Academy had selected this more quote unquote exotic woman, had
this exotic background with this exotic face, wherein actually her
background is not so much unlike double negative Meryl streets
for instance. Right, Yeah, This was pointed out by okay
Oh again that basically, like here's Meryl Streep, she also
(07:45):
kind of had a car round path because she did
not have that traditional Hollywood starlet look, the more delicate features,
the blonde hair. Um. But yeah, Streep was raised in
a middle class family, attended Vasser in the nineteen sixties,
where she fell out of place amongst some of her
more affluent peers, and during auditions in her twenties she
(08:07):
was often deemed not the best fit for Hollywood's archetype
of what a female celebrity should look like. And it
seems like a similar conversation right now is happening with
Lapida now. On the other hand, with Nyongo, I think
there was this initial idea, just because she doesn't look,
for instance, like Meryl Street, that she must have come
(08:29):
from some you know, troubled background and really scraped her
way up and then magically got this role that then
got her this Academy award, when in fact her background
is uh quite privileged. Um. She was born in Mexico
City and raised in Nairobi. She had pretty affluent parents.
She went to Hampshire College for Undergraduate where she wrote
(08:51):
and directed a feature documentary on albinism in Kenya called
In My Jeans Um and she then went on in
two thousand twelve to graduate in the Yale School of Drama,
where she was regarded as a stellar student. So she
actually has a pretty traditional, if not um elevated in
a way film background, where she has been working her
(09:14):
way up to this point. And the very fact though
that that's a surprise to a lot of people is
part of the reason why they're having this conversation. That's
that's part of the problem, this question of like, well,
why would we automatically assume otherwise? Yeah, well, I mean
I think it fits in with a lot of people's
(09:35):
assumptions and ignorance about Africa. Frankly, but like, it must
have just been some lucky break for this unfortunate girl
to have made her way here into acting and now
she's won an oscar. It's like a Cinderella story when
really she was she was never Cinderella. She worked really hard,
she came from a privileged background and now she has
(09:55):
earned her success and that's one of the reasons why.
Writing over at Humington Post, Dr Lisa Tomlinson kind of
calls out the racist undertones of this obsession with her
among more of the white public, because it's not so
much about her acting skill, but rather again the other
(10:16):
ring of her beauty. Right Yeah, Thomlinson talks about how
you know, who is it, who is it that's calling
the Ango unconventional and exotic and other, and she says
that it is coming from the white supremacist, patriarchal, and
capitalist lens, that it is mainly I guess white people
(10:39):
who are saying that she is the other, that she
is unconventional, and Thomlinson goes on to write that mainstream
media has systematically exoticized racialized women for white consumption. She
goes on to talk about Gabberie Citabe who was in
Precious and basically says, you know, it's not like Hollywood
let her breakthrough becau has while she had the same
(11:01):
dark skin that we praise lupetea Nango for, she doesn't
fit into that standard Hollywood beauty. She's not going to
wear a size zero or a size to dress, so
we don't know what to do with her. And you know,
Thomlinson also makes the point that in a lot of
these conversations, the blogg is fear whoever, we tend to
we tend to phrase frame this conversation as, Oh, this
(11:24):
this individual is really overcoming a lot of self esteem
issues tied to his or her skin color, when in reality,
dark skinned women elsewhere in the world, outside of the
U S, outside of the West are actually barred from
seizing better opportunities economic job opportunities because of their skin tone.
I mean the fact that skin whitening cream as is
(11:46):
as popular as it is in so many countries. There
are views of what lighter skin tone means in other
countries that don't just boil down to self esteem or
the white beauty ideal that we talked about here in
the West. Well, in speaking of complexion, I mean, that's
something that she brought up herself. Yoo did in a
speech that went viral actually um around the time of
(12:08):
the Academy Awards. She was giving a speech at a
dinner for black women in Hollywood, and she said, quote,
my complexion had already become something to overcome. And she
really talks about the fact that, you know, when she
was growing up, she didn't think she was beautiful because
it was something that she never saw in advertisements or
on film or in television. Again, it gets to that
(12:29):
visibility issue that we hammer home over and over again
on the podcast, and how she hoped that her being
on screen, hopefully more and more, will be an example
to girls like her growing up who don't think that
they're beautiful because society, you know, usually upholds white beauty
standards over non white beauty standards. And what's interesting in
(12:51):
that speech too, is that she talks a lot about
the importance of inner beauty and this quote from her
mom about how she would tell Lupia over and over
again when she would fread about these kinds of things
that you can't eat beauty. You can't just consume it,
you know, you have to sort of live from the
inside out. And her talking about beauty in that way
is so much the antithesis of the way that she
(13:15):
is in many ways being consumed by white culture um.
Which is why Eugene Lee Yang over at buzz Feed,
in a conversation about this um said, is her beauty
worshiped because she's black or because she somehow transcended our
superficial idea of what black is? And side note too,
(13:36):
as a white person, I think there's also this um
aspect of wanting to pat ourselves on the back a
little bit for elevating her to this position, but at
the same time, we're really ultimately just co modifying her
beauty for our own pleasure, which is really uncomfortable to
(13:57):
hear myself, stay out loud, No, I I would totally
agree that there seems uh Eugene Yang talks about how
there's this like almost religious fervor with these observations of
lupide in Yanga's beauty, and I do think there is
an element of that where where um, white people are
trying so hard not to appear racist all the time,
(14:20):
or they're making such an effort to say like, hey,
it's the kind of thing we're like, oh no, but
I have black friends. It's that kind of thing. So
when they're going out of their way to say, oh,
she's so beautiful, it's it's almost like, you know, why,
you're trying really hard to come off as open, open
and accepting of someone else's beauty that you didn't grow
(14:40):
up used to seeing. And a number of African American
bloggers have also pointed out too in this broader conversation
of how these this sort of eroticizing of particularly the
darker skin tones or the lighter skin tones, happens within
their communities as well. And actually, Damon Young over at
(15:00):
Ebony was talking about how Lupie and Yango being elevated
to this uh status as a beauty icon is good
for black boys because the white beauty standards are certainly
aren't don't exclusively impact what white people think beauty is
(15:21):
as well, he writes about how images kids are exposed
to matter and the black stars have often looked like
Halle Berry, Beyonce or Rihanna, reinforcing that light skinned black
women are the norm and the most desirable, right, And
he admits that as a kid growing up, he you know,
fell into that as well, that he idolized these lighter
(15:44):
skinned black women because that's just what he was presented
with over and over all the time. And he was,
you know, obviously it's not just yeah, like you said,
these media images don't exist in a vacuum. Everyone's being
exposed to them. And so he was also being exposed
to images of what quote unquote beauty is is and
how that was often equated to white women beauty. And
this is a lot of bloggers and even researchers have
(16:06):
talked about this, that the word itself beauty is often
tied in with white women. Oh yeah, there was some
I forget who it was. Brought up a very good
point to where if you just google image beauty, you
usually are served up white female faces. Um and uh.
Speaking a little more about skin tone, Jamala Lamo over
(16:30):
at Clutch was talking about how there's also the exotic sizing,
not just of you know, it's like white people are
exoticizing Lupida's darker skin tone, whereas there's also within the
African American community sometimes the exotic sizing of lighter biracial
skin tones. She talks about the use of regular black
(16:51):
girl versus the language of the exotic, which is often
used to denote a woman of color with European or
perhaps Asian heritage. Yeah. And Amina con Over at the
Black Girl Dangerous blog in April talked about how language matters,
and she says that dark skinned women are shunned and
mistreated even by dark skinned men. They're lighter skin sisters,
(17:15):
praised and glorified as though the association with whiteness makes
them somehow better. And I feel like so many times
the people who use the word exotic to describe a
woman who is likely of of not the same ethnic
origins as they are. I think it's some kind of compliment,
But a lot of times when you hear from women
(17:36):
who are referred to as exotic over and over again,
it's not a compliment at all, because it's incredibly objectifying
and sort of just boiling them down to this this
other status. And I mean, calling someone exotic says a
lot more about the person who's saying it than it
does about the person who's receiving the word. And Kristen
(17:57):
mentioned the term racial micro aggression and using the word
exotic is an example of that, and to define it
for you, uh, it's a turn that was first used
by a professor of education and psychiatry at Harvard University
in the nineteen seventies, Dr Chester Pierce, but it was
popularized more recently by Columbia University professor DARYLD W. Sue,
(18:21):
author of Microaggressions in Everyday Life, Race, gender, and Sexual Orientation. Basically,
a microaggression is where you maybe you think you're saying
something to be nice, like calling someone exotic, when really
it's just you telling that person that you think they're
the other. And expounding on that a little bit, psychologist
(18:42):
gal Alsen Sadie talks about how when you call someone
exotic again, it's usually intended as a compliment, but as
we all know, intentions don't necessarily make what you do okay,
because when you really break it down, an exotic beauty
isn't the same as a true beauty. Therefore, it's ultimately
(19:05):
a discriminatory sentimentsity rites and as far as dating goes um.
Going back to that BuzzFeed conversation that we mentioned earlier,
he Been Negatu was one of the people in the
conversation and she talks about Lupida, saying that I think
she's being fetishized for her dark skin and appearance, but
this doesn't translate into being coated as hot or sexy
(19:26):
or other terms that denote desirability. I want her next
role to be a romantic comedy. And I mean, I
think that's that's an interesting point that just because you
call someone exotic, that doesn't necessarily mean you're calling them
beautiful or think that they're cute, or you know, think
that they are Julia roberts Uh starring with Hugh Grant
and romantic comedy material, and so in that way, really
(19:50):
your compliment is almost hollow because they're not being included
in the general, the more general standard of beauty. Yeah,
this was something that Asia la Chapelle Friday wrote about
at the Root Um. She has a Louisiana Creole heritage
UM and her family identifies as African American, and she
talks about how any time guys would come up and
(20:13):
call her exotic, she knew exactly what was behind that
it was this kind of short lived enthusiasm. And she
said that ultimately, quote, I feared I would never encounter
a man who didn't make me feel as if I
weren't an animal completing his search for a rare pet.
And when you read too there there was another blogger,
Jandy Wilson over at Exo Jane, writing around a similar
(20:35):
kind of thing. And I feel like almost pretty much
any time I have read or heard a woman talking
first person about this kind of fetishization that happens that
specifically focused on their ethnic makeup, it is as though
there non white ethnicity is simply seen as an open
(20:55):
invitation for cat calling, for comments, for groping, for you know,
it is that kind of in the way that lash
Felle Friday puts it, that search for a rare pet.
And that's why this conversation over at the Hairpin was
really interesting. Um Gia Tolentino over the Hairpin was talking
(21:17):
about a national geographic piece talking about what what our
babies are going to look like in and how we're
going to exist in this you know, post racial society
where interracial relationships with the noirm and so with all
of this melting pot nous and all of this blending,
our kids are going to be these beautiful, dark skinned,
(21:39):
light eyed, curly haired, you know supermodels. Yeah, everyone will
kind of look as the want to pointed out like
Rashida Jones and policy Mike sort of viralized it for
the Internet and it went wild on social media and everyone.
And again it's also a lot of white people saying like, yay,
I can't wait for the time when our babies are
(22:01):
gonna look so much more interesting and just like cuter
than they do today. And Tolentino sums up uh this
attitude in in a in a statement that really like
I email Kristen and was like, did you see this?
She writes, look at how beautiful it is to see
everything deluded that we used to hate. So well, it
(22:24):
is great. It is great to celebrate interracial relationships and
the fact that you can't get arrested anymore for a
black man marrying a white woman, for instance. There is
the whole conversation of like, well, wait, is a is
a quote unquote regular black person or regular white person? Not? Okay,
do we are we trying to change people? Are we?
(22:46):
Do we not want to let people be who they are?
Or you know, well, because it's it also kind of
trace us back to the fact that, um, as much
I think as we would like to live in some
post racial utopia, we don't live in a post radial
utopia as probably people of color can attest to far
(23:06):
more than white people, as still the majority can attest to.
And that was something um talking about, these semiotics of
race and how that kind of other ring of non
white people, particularly if you look in advertising, for instance,
it still happens quite often, right. Yeah. Amina con who
(23:29):
we mentioned earlier from the blog black Girl Dangerous, talked
about this whole semiotics issue, which is basically the study
of how signs and symbols are used to create meaning
and so what an image of a certain type of
person is supposed to communicate to us as a society
as consumers. She uses the example of a perfume ad
where a white woman looking very satisfied as reclining on
(23:52):
a bed while with his back to us, we see
a black man standing over her and the ad copy,
which I like, I had to read a couple of
times because I almost didn't believe it at first, but
the ad copy was take a walk on the wild side.
And the implication is that if you use this perfume,
you will get a thrill, you will be wild, you
will be the type of woman who sleeps with black men.
(24:16):
And isn't that cookie? Yeah? I mean, and if you
even take that further, this this has me thinking about
how people of color and and often, you know, indigenous
groups are used far too often in fashion ads as
just background props for white models wearing sometimes you know,
in indigenous inspired clothing that has really just been culturally
(24:40):
appropriated from other groups. And this leads up to this
really important point that that Cohn made talking about those
semiotics of race. She says, we must resist these categorizations
at every turn. We must resist using blackness to signify
savagery and animalism. We must resist using brownness to signify
(25:01):
an exotic, mystical east. And why Why Because we must
also resist using whiteness to signify purity and enlightenment and righteousness. Yeah,
she talks about how words like pretty and beautiful and
cute are reserved for white women or white models and
magazines whose bodies and sexualities aren't seen by society at
(25:25):
large as wild animal or untamed um. And exotic is
totally wrapped up in that because how often when's left
time you heard exotic use for a blonde white woman
from the Midwest, Right, I mean, certainly in our culture,
we would never describe a woman like that as exotic,
But we'll we'll call black women fierce or striking or
(25:46):
eye catching or exotic, will call black men hulking, threatening, thuggish,
We'll call white men charming with hearts of gold. But
you know, I mean, those are those are lines that
are unfair to the people that are being referred to
that way. But I mean they're unfair coming out of
the mouths of I don't know, right, I mean, because
they're ultimately it's ultimately marginalizing, right, exactly, It's boiling people
(26:10):
down to stereotypes. Yeah, I mean, and in this conversation
we've really focused on exoticizing people of African descent, but
really this applies to I mean, this happens so often
to you hear about with Asian women. It happens with
you know, pretty much any any non white female in particular,
although it can also happen with men as well. This
(26:32):
really cuts across ethnicities. And what's even weirder about this
conversation is talking about quote unquote exotic beauty or in
this in this instance from CNN, ethnic beauty as something
that is a fashion statement. Instead of just saying, well,
(26:53):
some people look like this and that's how they look,
and other people look different and that's cool. The CNN
article from Renington reads like a story from the Onion.
It is talking about fashion, and it is talking about
quote unquote ethnic beauty as if it is something that
is now in and that you should aspire to. And
(27:13):
aren't you curvy girls lucky to look the way you do?
And this ties back to our conversation last October about
cultural appropriations, really in the context of what not to
wear as a Halloween costume, because the problem, for instance,
with say, wearing an Native American inspired war bonnet as
(27:35):
a white person like Farrell recently did on the cover
of l U K and quickly had to issue an
apology for is because it ultimately just appropriates and then
commodifies another groups ceremonial sacred garb for our own white
(27:56):
capitalistic gains. Because again and again and again throughout this article,
it is incredible how uh, non white features are simply
just turned into these selling points. For instance, you have
this one plastic surgeon they interviewed saying fuller lips are
(28:16):
definitely associated with ethnic cultures. And I don't think these
trends are going to fade away too quickly. I mean this,
this is not empowering. Well, and it's not. It's not. Uh.
I think they're trying to pitch it as, oh, look
we are our definition of beauty is expanding. But no, actually,
I think we're just now co modifying non white beauty
(28:40):
in this instance. I mean one Marie Claire beauty and
health director that they talked to described our quote unquote
obsession with rich brown skin complexions, which have boosted the
sales of self tanning products. What but has that done
anything for the day to day lives of people who
(29:01):
actually walk around with rich brown skin complexions. No, so
what good is that doing anybody except for pale skinned
women like you and me, who can get tanner faster
if we want to. Yeah, it makes it okay. And
if you happen to be a white person listening to
this podcast and don't exactly grasp not just the wrongness
(29:24):
of this kind of exotic sizing of non white beauty,
but don't even grasp the ridiculous nous of it, because
it does get ridiculous at a point. Let me just offer, uh,
this quote from this satirical tumbler called Exotic White Girls.
So I'm a post they wrote called the Beautiful White
Dialect and it goes, I love how beautiful and simple
(29:47):
the exotic white dialect is because it has less words
and lacks any logical grammar. It just sounds so peaceful,
calming and real. You can just feel the emotion when
you listen to them speak. It varies from try to try,
but throughout the White Motherlands it's basically the same. I
took a two week service trip to build a McDonald's
with authentic white food and live with an authentic white family,
(30:09):
So I know, and did you know they have twenty
different words for coffee but no words for self aware?
Like I know. When I read that, Caroline, a little
lightbulb also went off in my head of Oh, this
is what it sounds like when we talk like that
about other people. Yeah, because that language and I mean,
(30:31):
I've already said this, but I mean that language says
nothing about the people you're talking about. When you when
you're saying something, calling someone exotic or what have you,
it says everything about you and your perception and the
way that you're using language and the way that you
think it's okay to use language. And I do think
that overall, are collective perception of what is beautiful is broadening,
(30:56):
but I think we still have progress to make in
terms of how we talk about it and how we
consume it and our relationship with it and also with
the people that we're talking about. I just think that
um patting ourselves on the back for for instance, Lupetea
and Ngo, an incredible beautiful actress, Yes, receiving an Academy
(31:21):
award and saying Okay, well progress is here, let's go
about our day is very shortsighted. So we're definitely interested
to hear from our listeners on this topic. Are you
a woman of color who has been called exotic? Has
someone ever said to you know where you really from
in conversation? Yeah, let us know all of your your
(31:42):
thoughts and experiences with us, because I think this is
a conversation that needs to happen more. I don't think
that we talk about it enough and we really want
to hear from you, So please let us know your thoughts.
Moms Stuff at how stuff works dot com. You can
also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast asked and messages
on Facebook as well, and we have a couple of
(32:03):
messages to share with you right now. Well, I've got
to let her here. From Maggie, in response to episode
on gay wedding traditions, she writes, I'm in the process
of planning my gay wedding with my fiance, So, first
of all, Maggie, congrats, she continues, you asked how gay
(32:24):
couples feel about straight people refusing to marry until we
have the same rights. I can only speak for myself.
I'm not even speaking from my partner because we haven't
even really discussed it. But it doesn't matter to me
at all. I want everyone to be married who wants
to be married. I suppose it just depends on the intentions.
It's become a joke that men will say that to
avoid marriage. Whether that really happens, though, I don't know.
(32:45):
I live in a state where gay marriage is legal
in Delaware, and I live in an area of that
state with a high concentration of gay people. I've never
personally been the victim of discrimination. I'm extremely fortunate. My
family and friends and even strangers have been nothing but supportive.
I have twenty nieces and nephews, and all of whom
are old enough to understand know that I'm gay and
can't wait for their aunt Amy to finally become their
(33:08):
aunt Amy. I've been a bridesmaid for I think demestrate weddings,
and therefore a part of all those plans. And I
know that our wedding looks almost exactly like their's. The
only thing we've had to question about is who will
walk down the aisle first. All the other questions are
the same ones any couples have. What song will we
dance to? Where will everyone stay? What time will the
ceremony be? Where I live? Those are the most important questions. Well, Maggie,
(33:33):
good luck with your wedding and best wishes. I have
a letter here from Kate that is also in response
to our Gay Wedding podcast. She says, I was at
an HR conference listening to a panel discussing relocation benefits
for employees. One of the speakers from one of the
biggest US insurance firms stated, our high value talent is
(33:55):
expected to buy homes. A sign of maturity and readiness
for leadership at our company is having the home, the wife,
and the kids. If you don't do these things, you'll
be passed over for promotion. I was first shocked and
HR professional would openly admit to having a policy of
discrimination against employees with alternative lifestyles and by that I
mean single people who may not have found the right
(34:16):
person yet. But also by saying these heteronormative standards are
a prerequisite for success, this company conveys to their gay
staff that they will be discriminated against, irrespective of their
legal ability to participate in these expectations. As we know, statistically,
gay people are of lower income than straight people. Perhaps
this is not only because they are denied marital benefits
which help individuals to accumulate wealth, but also because of
(34:38):
workplace discrimination owing to their marital status. Quite the vicious circle.
Quite indeed, Kate, thank you for writing in, and thanks
to everybody who's written into us. Mom Stuff at how
stuff works dot com is where you can send us
your letters. You can also find links to all of
our social media, all of our podcasts, including all the
(34:59):
source is for our podcast episodes, as well blog posts
and videos over at the One Stuff Sminty Shop Stuff
Mom Never Told You dot com For more on this
and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff works
dot com
Welcome to stuff Mom Never told you. From how Supports
dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Caroline
and I'm Kristen, and today we're talking about a rather
broad but important topic, which is the tendency of various
(00:23):
people to exotic size, non white beauty. So let me
break it down real quick. We came to this idea
because I was reading some tabloid magazines. I'm sorry, Okay,
I'm sorry. Hey, sometimes it's fun to read a tabloid.
But every time I go home to see Sally, she
hands me like this stack of tabloid magazines because she
(00:46):
religiously goes every Friday to the grocery store to buy
her tabloids. She would die if she heard me say this.
But anyway, so I'm flipping through and they're like two
months old, and one thing that I noticed was how
actress Lupia Niango has attracted so much praise and adoration.
And I'm looking at this and I'm thinking, that's great,
(01:06):
she's a talented actor. Since she's achieving the attention and
the praise that she deserves. Well, then I'm reading a
couple more magazines and then I start looking at the
Internet and I'm thinking this attention that she's getting is
kind of weird because it didn't it started to not
feel genuine. It started to feel like it was coming
from a place where people were tripping over themselves to
(01:32):
adore her and and heap adoration on her for strange reasons.
And then I started to think, are people just obsessed
with this actress because she's black? Well, and by people,
are you referring more specifically to white people, I am
referring more specifically to white people in this instance, white
(01:52):
people in entertainment media. But also the blog is Fear,
I mean, news probe rams anywhere that's talking about lupetea
Niango seems to be referring to her as some other worldly,
exotic beauty and what does that even mean? Yeah, it's
that word exotic that comes up a lot, which is
(02:14):
what we really wanted to dig into, and a lot
of our conversation in the in the first half of
this episode is going to focus on Lupeta because it
is Caroline such a perfect example of how culturally it's
It's like we're almost trying to consume her and figure
out like what what her beauty means for us, and uh,
(02:38):
just for a little bit of background. This might seem
a little dated, because Lupida's star really shot up during
Awards season earlier this year, when she was receiving award
after award and just looking stunning in general on so
many red carpets, and she ultimately received the Academy Award
for Best Supporting Actress for her role as Patsy in
(02:59):
Twelve Yours a Slave, and it was highly celebrated when
she looked incredible that night. She gave a very moving
speech and like you staid Caroline, the blogosphere he so
much deserved praise on her, but it was almost taken
to this next level. Particularly, I felt like it really
(03:20):
started to spiral into this huh, what are we really
talking about extent when people named her, you know, the
most beautiful woman in the world, which again like, of course,
like she's gorgeous. Her star is rising um and she
also got a contract with Landcombe Cosmetics, and it was
(03:42):
as if people just couldn't talk enough about her exotic beauty.
In particular, right, it seemed as if everybody, and I
mean I say everybody, I mainly do mean white people.
It seemed that a lot of white people were tripping
over themselves to say how beautiful she was, to to
talk about her acting chops, I don't know. It just didn't.
(04:05):
There was something off about it. There was something strange
and slightly disingenuous. Not that she doesn't deserve the praise,
not that she's not beautiful, but all of the compliments
seemed to focus on how different she was, right the
exoticism factor. For instance, the Daily Mail proclaimed her exotic
beauty and acting debut in twelve years of slave has
(04:25):
left both Hollywood and the fashion world breathless. Over at Forbes,
you have Niongo is the kind of star publicist dream about.
She has an exotic background. And then at Hollywood Reporter,
you have the fashion world appears ready to promote her beauty,
even if to some it seems exotic. Yeah. Over at
Salon in April, Aganda, Okayo called for everybody to stop
(04:50):
this whole exoticization, this whole other ring of this actress.
And she really rolled her eyes at that Hollywood Reporter story.
Um because the writer, the Hollywood Reporter writers seemed to
really be fretting about how in the world Lupete will
go on in Hollywood, how will she succeed, how will
she overcome her different nous and they wondered can a
(05:12):
black actress ever reached Julia roberts stature and the story
and okay O both name other African American actors and actresses,
but there they seem very concerned that Lupeta just can't
reach that upper echelon of acting the way that Julia
Roberts has well. And it's not so much the question
(05:35):
of will she post Oscar be able to continue, you know,
climbing the ranks to a list Hollywood because there has
been a problem it's called the Oscar curse for a
number of African American women in particular, who received Academy
Awards but then don't go on to get a number
of really great media roles after that. But the issue
(05:59):
there isn't so much in the color of their skin,
but rather a lack of meaty roles written and given
to women of color in Hollywood that aren't roles such
as housekeeper like someone in The Help, or a slave
like someone like Patsy in Twelve Years of Slave. Right. Yeah,
And it is that concern about roles which I think
(06:20):
that conversation is way more productive and justified than a
conversation about her skin color. Um. The Hollywood Reporter quoted
a studio executive talking about how there are so few
roles out there for women of color. Those roles are
not are just not being written, he said, And in
quoting a talent agent, uh, they said that for someone
(06:41):
who looks like her with a distinctively black African face,
maybe she's someone who can change the direction for darker
skin actresses, actresses who are definitely not European looking, but
it may require some forward looking director to push for her. Well,
the good news is it was recently announced that Lupida
is going to be in the newest Star Wars that's
(07:03):
coming up, so it doesn't seem like she is immediately
doomed for some kind of post Oscar slump. But there's
still that problematic issue of exotic sizing this beauty, because
the funny thing about it is everyone was sort of
falling over themselves and and praising the fact that the
(07:23):
Academy had selected this more quote unquote exotic woman, had
this exotic background with this exotic face, wherein actually her
background is not so much unlike double negative Meryl streets
for instance. Right, Yeah, This was pointed out by okay
Oh again that basically, like here's Meryl Streep, she also
(07:45):
kind of had a car round path because she did
not have that traditional Hollywood starlet look, the more delicate features,
the blonde hair. Um. But yeah, Streep was raised in
a middle class family, attended Vasser in the nineteen sixties,
where she fell out of place amongst some of her
more affluent peers, and during auditions in her twenties she
(08:07):
was often deemed not the best fit for Hollywood's archetype
of what a female celebrity should look like. And it
seems like a similar conversation right now is happening with
Lapida now. On the other hand, with Nyongo, I think
there was this initial idea, just because she doesn't look,
for instance, like Meryl Street, that she must have come
(08:29):
from some you know, troubled background and really scraped her
way up and then magically got this role that then
got her this Academy award, when in fact her background
is uh quite privileged. Um. She was born in Mexico
City and raised in Nairobi. She had pretty affluent parents.
She went to Hampshire College for Undergraduate where she wrote
(08:51):
and directed a feature documentary on albinism in Kenya called
In My Jeans Um and she then went on in
two thousand twelve to graduate in the Yale School of Drama,
where she was regarded as a stellar student. So she
actually has a pretty traditional, if not um elevated in
a way film background, where she has been working her
(09:14):
way up to this point. And the very fact though
that that's a surprise to a lot of people is
part of the reason why they're having this conversation. That's
that's part of the problem, this question of like, well,
why would we automatically assume otherwise? Yeah, well, I mean
I think it fits in with a lot of people's
(09:35):
assumptions and ignorance about Africa. Frankly, but like, it must
have just been some lucky break for this unfortunate girl
to have made her way here into acting and now
she's won an oscar. It's like a Cinderella story when
really she was she was never Cinderella. She worked really hard,
she came from a privileged background and now she has
(09:55):
earned her success and that's one of the reasons why.
Writing over at Humington Post, Dr Lisa Tomlinson kind of
calls out the racist undertones of this obsession with her
among more of the white public, because it's not so
much about her acting skill, but rather again the other
(10:16):
ring of her beauty. Right Yeah, Thomlinson talks about how
you know, who is it, who is it that's calling
the Ango unconventional and exotic and other, and she says
that it is coming from the white supremacist, patriarchal, and
capitalist lens, that it is mainly I guess white people
(10:39):
who are saying that she is the other, that she
is unconventional, and Thomlinson goes on to write that mainstream
media has systematically exoticized racialized women for white consumption. She
goes on to talk about Gabberie Citabe who was in
Precious and basically says, you know, it's not like Hollywood
let her breakthrough becau has while she had the same
(11:01):
dark skin that we praise lupetea Nango for, she doesn't
fit into that standard Hollywood beauty. She's not going to
wear a size zero or a size to dress, so
we don't know what to do with her. And you know,
Thomlinson also makes the point that in a lot of
these conversations, the blogg is fear whoever, we tend to
we tend to phrase frame this conversation as, Oh, this
(11:24):
this individual is really overcoming a lot of self esteem
issues tied to his or her skin color, when in reality,
dark skinned women elsewhere in the world, outside of the
U S, outside of the West are actually barred from
seizing better opportunities economic job opportunities because of their skin tone.
I mean the fact that skin whitening cream as is
(11:46):
as popular as it is in so many countries. There
are views of what lighter skin tone means in other
countries that don't just boil down to self esteem or
the white beauty ideal that we talked about here in
the West. Well, in speaking of complexion, I mean, that's
something that she brought up herself. Yoo did in a
speech that went viral actually um around the time of
(12:08):
the Academy Awards. She was giving a speech at a
dinner for black women in Hollywood, and she said, quote,
my complexion had already become something to overcome. And she
really talks about the fact that, you know, when she
was growing up, she didn't think she was beautiful because
it was something that she never saw in advertisements or
on film or in television. Again, it gets to that
(12:29):
visibility issue that we hammer home over and over again
on the podcast, and how she hoped that her being
on screen, hopefully more and more, will be an example
to girls like her growing up who don't think that
they're beautiful because society, you know, usually upholds white beauty
standards over non white beauty standards. And what's interesting in
(12:51):
that speech too, is that she talks a lot about
the importance of inner beauty and this quote from her
mom about how she would tell Lupia over and over
again when she would fread about these kinds of things
that you can't eat beauty. You can't just consume it,
you know, you have to sort of live from the
inside out. And her talking about beauty in that way
is so much the antithesis of the way that she
(13:15):
is in many ways being consumed by white culture um.
Which is why Eugene Lee Yang over at buzz Feed,
in a conversation about this um said, is her beauty
worshiped because she's black or because she somehow transcended our
superficial idea of what black is? And side note too,
(13:36):
as a white person, I think there's also this um
aspect of wanting to pat ourselves on the back a
little bit for elevating her to this position, but at
the same time, we're really ultimately just co modifying her
beauty for our own pleasure, which is really uncomfortable to
(13:57):
hear myself, stay out loud, No, I I would totally
agree that there seems uh Eugene Yang talks about how
there's this like almost religious fervor with these observations of
lupide in Yanga's beauty, and I do think there is
an element of that where where um, white people are
trying so hard not to appear racist all the time,
(14:20):
or they're making such an effort to say like, hey,
it's the kind of thing we're like, oh no, but
I have black friends. It's that kind of thing. So
when they're going out of their way to say, oh,
she's so beautiful, it's it's almost like, you know, why,
you're trying really hard to come off as open, open
and accepting of someone else's beauty that you didn't grow
(14:40):
up used to seeing. And a number of African American
bloggers have also pointed out too in this broader conversation
of how these this sort of eroticizing of particularly the
darker skin tones or the lighter skin tones, happens within
their communities as well. And actually, Damon Young over at
(15:00):
Ebony was talking about how Lupie and Yango being elevated
to this uh status as a beauty icon is good
for black boys because the white beauty standards are certainly
aren't don't exclusively impact what white people think beauty is
(15:21):
as well, he writes about how images kids are exposed
to matter and the black stars have often looked like
Halle Berry, Beyonce or Rihanna, reinforcing that light skinned black
women are the norm and the most desirable, right, And
he admits that as a kid growing up, he you know,
fell into that as well, that he idolized these lighter
(15:44):
skinned black women because that's just what he was presented
with over and over all the time. And he was,
you know, obviously it's not just yeah, like you said,
these media images don't exist in a vacuum. Everyone's being
exposed to them. And so he was also being exposed
to images of what quote unquote beauty is is and
how that was often equated to white women beauty. And
this is a lot of bloggers and even researchers have
(16:06):
talked about this, that the word itself beauty is often
tied in with white women. Oh yeah, there was some
I forget who it was. Brought up a very good
point to where if you just google image beauty, you
usually are served up white female faces. Um and uh.
Speaking a little more about skin tone, Jamala Lamo over
(16:30):
at Clutch was talking about how there's also the exotic sizing,
not just of you know, it's like white people are
exoticizing Lupida's darker skin tone, whereas there's also within the
African American community sometimes the exotic sizing of lighter biracial
skin tones. She talks about the use of regular black
(16:51):
girl versus the language of the exotic, which is often
used to denote a woman of color with European or
perhaps Asian heritage. Yeah. And Amina con Over at the
Black Girl Dangerous blog in April talked about how language matters,
and she says that dark skinned women are shunned and
mistreated even by dark skinned men. They're lighter skin sisters,
(17:15):
praised and glorified as though the association with whiteness makes
them somehow better. And I feel like so many times
the people who use the word exotic to describe a
woman who is likely of of not the same ethnic
origins as they are. I think it's some kind of compliment,
But a lot of times when you hear from women
(17:36):
who are referred to as exotic over and over again,
it's not a compliment at all, because it's incredibly objectifying
and sort of just boiling them down to this this
other status. And I mean, calling someone exotic says a
lot more about the person who's saying it than it
does about the person who's receiving the word. And Kristen
(17:57):
mentioned the term racial micro aggression and using the word
exotic is an example of that, and to define it
for you, uh, it's a turn that was first used
by a professor of education and psychiatry at Harvard University
in the nineteen seventies, Dr Chester Pierce, but it was
popularized more recently by Columbia University professor DARYLD W. Sue,
(18:21):
author of Microaggressions in Everyday Life, Race, gender, and Sexual Orientation. Basically,
a microaggression is where you maybe you think you're saying
something to be nice, like calling someone exotic, when really
it's just you telling that person that you think they're
the other. And expounding on that a little bit, psychologist
(18:42):
gal Alsen Sadie talks about how when you call someone
exotic again, it's usually intended as a compliment, but as
we all know, intentions don't necessarily make what you do okay,
because when you really break it down, an exotic beauty
isn't the same as a true beauty. Therefore, it's ultimately
(19:05):
a discriminatory sentimentsity rites and as far as dating goes um.
Going back to that BuzzFeed conversation that we mentioned earlier,
he Been Negatu was one of the people in the
conversation and she talks about Lupida, saying that I think
she's being fetishized for her dark skin and appearance, but
this doesn't translate into being coated as hot or sexy
(19:26):
or other terms that denote desirability. I want her next
role to be a romantic comedy. And I mean, I
think that's that's an interesting point that just because you
call someone exotic, that doesn't necessarily mean you're calling them
beautiful or think that they're cute, or you know, think
that they are Julia roberts Uh starring with Hugh Grant
and romantic comedy material, and so in that way, really
(19:50):
your compliment is almost hollow because they're not being included
in the general, the more general standard of beauty. Yeah,
this was something that Asia la Chapelle Friday wrote about
at the Root Um. She has a Louisiana Creole heritage
UM and her family identifies as African American, and she
talks about how any time guys would come up and
(20:13):
call her exotic, she knew exactly what was behind that
it was this kind of short lived enthusiasm. And she
said that ultimately, quote, I feared I would never encounter
a man who didn't make me feel as if I
weren't an animal completing his search for a rare pet.
And when you read too there there was another blogger,
Jandy Wilson over at Exo Jane, writing around a similar
(20:35):
kind of thing. And I feel like almost pretty much
any time I have read or heard a woman talking
first person about this kind of fetishization that happens that
specifically focused on their ethnic makeup, it is as though
there non white ethnicity is simply seen as an open
(20:55):
invitation for cat calling, for comments, for groping, for you know,
it is that kind of in the way that lash
Felle Friday puts it, that search for a rare pet.
And that's why this conversation over at the Hairpin was
really interesting. Um Gia Tolentino over the Hairpin was talking
(21:17):
about a national geographic piece talking about what what our
babies are going to look like in and how we're
going to exist in this you know, post racial society
where interracial relationships with the noirm and so with all
of this melting pot nous and all of this blending,
our kids are going to be these beautiful, dark skinned,
(21:39):
light eyed, curly haired, you know supermodels. Yeah, everyone will
kind of look as the want to pointed out like
Rashida Jones and policy Mike sort of viralized it for
the Internet and it went wild on social media and everyone.
And again it's also a lot of white people saying like, yay,
I can't wait for the time when our babies are
(22:01):
gonna look so much more interesting and just like cuter
than they do today. And Tolentino sums up uh this
attitude in in a in a statement that really like
I email Kristen and was like, did you see this?
She writes, look at how beautiful it is to see
everything deluded that we used to hate. So well, it
(22:24):
is great. It is great to celebrate interracial relationships and
the fact that you can't get arrested anymore for a
black man marrying a white woman, for instance. There is
the whole conversation of like, well, wait, is a is
a quote unquote regular black person or regular white person? Not? Okay,
do we are we trying to change people? Are we?
(22:46):
Do we not want to let people be who they are?
Or you know, well, because it's it also kind of
trace us back to the fact that, um, as much
I think as we would like to live in some
post racial utopia, we don't live in a post radial
utopia as probably people of color can attest to far
(23:06):
more than white people, as still the majority can attest to.
And that was something um talking about, these semiotics of
race and how that kind of other ring of non
white people, particularly if you look in advertising, for instance,
it still happens quite often, right. Yeah. Amina con who
(23:29):
we mentioned earlier from the blog black Girl Dangerous, talked
about this whole semiotics issue, which is basically the study
of how signs and symbols are used to create meaning
and so what an image of a certain type of
person is supposed to communicate to us as a society
as consumers. She uses the example of a perfume ad
where a white woman looking very satisfied as reclining on
(23:52):
a bed while with his back to us, we see
a black man standing over her and the ad copy,
which I like, I had to read a couple of
times because I almost didn't believe it at first, but
the ad copy was take a walk on the wild side.
And the implication is that if you use this perfume,
you will get a thrill, you will be wild, you
will be the type of woman who sleeps with black men.
(24:16):
And isn't that cookie? Yeah? I mean, and if you
even take that further, this this has me thinking about
how people of color and and often, you know, indigenous
groups are used far too often in fashion ads as
just background props for white models wearing sometimes you know,
in indigenous inspired clothing that has really just been culturally
(24:40):
appropriated from other groups. And this leads up to this
really important point that that Cohn made talking about those
semiotics of race. She says, we must resist these categorizations
at every turn. We must resist using blackness to signify
savagery and animalism. We must resist using brownness to signify
(25:01):
an exotic, mystical east. And why Why Because we must
also resist using whiteness to signify purity and enlightenment and righteousness. Yeah,
she talks about how words like pretty and beautiful and
cute are reserved for white women or white models and
magazines whose bodies and sexualities aren't seen by society at
(25:25):
large as wild animal or untamed um. And exotic is
totally wrapped up in that because how often when's left
time you heard exotic use for a blonde white woman
from the Midwest, Right, I mean, certainly in our culture,
we would never describe a woman like that as exotic,
But we'll we'll call black women fierce or striking or
(25:46):
eye catching or exotic, will call black men hulking, threatening, thuggish,
We'll call white men charming with hearts of gold. But
you know, I mean, those are those are lines that
are unfair to the people that are being referred to
that way. But I mean they're unfair coming out of
the mouths of I don't know, right, I mean, because
they're ultimately it's ultimately marginalizing, right, exactly, It's boiling people
(26:10):
down to stereotypes. Yeah, I mean, and in this conversation
we've really focused on exoticizing people of African descent, but
really this applies to I mean, this happens so often
to you hear about with Asian women. It happens with
you know, pretty much any any non white female in particular,
although it can also happen with men as well. This
(26:32):
really cuts across ethnicities. And what's even weirder about this
conversation is talking about quote unquote exotic beauty or in
this in this instance from CNN, ethnic beauty as something
that is a fashion statement. Instead of just saying, well,
(26:53):
some people look like this and that's how they look,
and other people look different and that's cool. The CNN
article from Renington reads like a story from the Onion.
It is talking about fashion, and it is talking about
quote unquote ethnic beauty as if it is something that
is now in and that you should aspire to. And
(27:13):
aren't you curvy girls lucky to look the way you do?
And this ties back to our conversation last October about
cultural appropriations, really in the context of what not to
wear as a Halloween costume, because the problem, for instance,
with say, wearing an Native American inspired war bonnet as
(27:35):
a white person like Farrell recently did on the cover
of l U K and quickly had to issue an
apology for is because it ultimately just appropriates and then
commodifies another groups ceremonial sacred garb for our own white
(27:56):
capitalistic gains. Because again and again and again throughout this article,
it is incredible how uh, non white features are simply
just turned into these selling points. For instance, you have
this one plastic surgeon they interviewed saying fuller lips are
(28:16):
definitely associated with ethnic cultures. And I don't think these
trends are going to fade away too quickly. I mean this,
this is not empowering. Well, and it's not. It's not. Uh.
I think they're trying to pitch it as, oh, look
we are our definition of beauty is expanding. But no, actually,
I think we're just now co modifying non white beauty
(28:40):
in this instance. I mean one Marie Claire beauty and
health director that they talked to described our quote unquote
obsession with rich brown skin complexions, which have boosted the
sales of self tanning products. What but has that done
anything for the day to day lives of people who
(29:01):
actually walk around with rich brown skin complexions. No, so
what good is that doing anybody except for pale skinned
women like you and me, who can get tanner faster
if we want to. Yeah, it makes it okay. And
if you happen to be a white person listening to
this podcast and don't exactly grasp not just the wrongness
(29:24):
of this kind of exotic sizing of non white beauty,
but don't even grasp the ridiculous nous of it, because
it does get ridiculous at a point. Let me just offer, uh,
this quote from this satirical tumbler called Exotic White Girls.
So I'm a post they wrote called the Beautiful White
Dialect and it goes, I love how beautiful and simple
(29:47):
the exotic white dialect is because it has less words
and lacks any logical grammar. It just sounds so peaceful,
calming and real. You can just feel the emotion when
you listen to them speak. It varies from try to try,
but throughout the White Motherlands it's basically the same. I
took a two week service trip to build a McDonald's
with authentic white food and live with an authentic white family,
(30:09):
So I know, and did you know they have twenty
different words for coffee but no words for self aware?
Like I know. When I read that, Caroline, a little
lightbulb also went off in my head of Oh, this
is what it sounds like when we talk like that
about other people. Yeah, because that language and I mean,
(30:31):
I've already said this, but I mean that language says
nothing about the people you're talking about. When you when
you're saying something, calling someone exotic or what have you,
it says everything about you and your perception and the
way that you're using language and the way that you
think it's okay to use language. And I do think
that overall, are collective perception of what is beautiful is broadening,
(30:56):
but I think we still have progress to make in
terms of how we talk about it and how we
consume it and our relationship with it and also with
the people that we're talking about. I just think that
um patting ourselves on the back for for instance, Lupetea
and Ngo, an incredible beautiful actress, Yes, receiving an Academy
(31:21):
award and saying Okay, well progress is here, let's go
about our day is very shortsighted. So we're definitely interested
to hear from our listeners on this topic. Are you
a woman of color who has been called exotic? Has
someone ever said to you know where you really from
in conversation? Yeah, let us know all of your your
(31:42):
thoughts and experiences with us, because I think this is
a conversation that needs to happen more. I don't think
that we talk about it enough and we really want
to hear from you, So please let us know your thoughts.
Moms Stuff at how stuff works dot com. You can
also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast asked and messages
on Facebook as well, and we have a couple of
(32:03):
messages to share with you right now. Well, I've got
to let her here. From Maggie, in response to episode
on gay wedding traditions, she writes, I'm in the process
of planning my gay wedding with my fiance, So, first
of all, Maggie, congrats, she continues, you asked how gay
(32:24):
couples feel about straight people refusing to marry until we
have the same rights. I can only speak for myself.
I'm not even speaking from my partner because we haven't
even really discussed it. But it doesn't matter to me
at all. I want everyone to be married who wants
to be married. I suppose it just depends on the intentions.
It's become a joke that men will say that to
avoid marriage. Whether that really happens, though, I don't know.
(32:45):
I live in a state where gay marriage is legal
in Delaware, and I live in an area of that
state with a high concentration of gay people. I've never
personally been the victim of discrimination. I'm extremely fortunate. My
family and friends and even strangers have been nothing but supportive.
I have twenty nieces and nephews, and all of whom
are old enough to understand know that I'm gay and
can't wait for their aunt Amy to finally become their
(33:08):
aunt Amy. I've been a bridesmaid for I think demestrate weddings,
and therefore a part of all those plans. And I
know that our wedding looks almost exactly like their's. The
only thing we've had to question about is who will
walk down the aisle first. All the other questions are
the same ones any couples have. What song will we
dance to? Where will everyone stay? What time will the
ceremony be? Where I live? Those are the most important questions. Well, Maggie,
(33:33):
good luck with your wedding and best wishes. I have
a letter here from Kate that is also in response
to our Gay Wedding podcast. She says, I was at
an HR conference listening to a panel discussing relocation benefits
for employees. One of the speakers from one of the
biggest US insurance firms stated, our high value talent is
(33:55):
expected to buy homes. A sign of maturity and readiness
for leadership at our company is having the home, the wife,
and the kids. If you don't do these things, you'll
be passed over for promotion. I was first shocked and
HR professional would openly admit to having a policy of
discrimination against employees with alternative lifestyles and by that I
mean single people who may not have found the right
(34:16):
person yet. But also by saying these heteronormative standards are
a prerequisite for success, this company conveys to their gay
staff that they will be discriminated against, irrespective of their
legal ability to participate in these expectations. As we know, statistically,
gay people are of lower income than straight people. Perhaps
this is not only because they are denied marital benefits
which help individuals to accumulate wealth, but also because of
(34:38):
workplace discrimination owing to their marital status. Quite the vicious circle.
Quite indeed, Kate, thank you for writing in, and thanks
to everybody who's written into us. Mom Stuff at how
stuff works dot com is where you can send us
your letters. You can also find links to all of
our social media, all of our podcasts, including all the
(34:59):
source is for our podcast episodes, as well blog posts
and videos over at the One Stuff Sminty Shop Stuff
Mom Never Told You dot com For more on this
and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff works
dot com
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