November 13, 2019 • 35 mins
Yves stops by for another edition of female firsts, this time to discuss Huda Sha'arawi, the first president of Egyptian Feminist Union and Arab Feminist Union.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to stuff.
I never told you a protection of I Heart Radio's
house Stuff word. You know what time it is? It's
that time? What time? It's time for another female first Yes,
which means we are joined once again by our good
(00:27):
friend and colleague ease. Welcome Ea, Hello there, and we
don't get to see often because she's so busy, aren't
we all? It's true, it is true, and I have
some terrible news. I did not bring the cheesecake or champagne.
I have you know what it's okay, Honestly, I've been
(00:48):
eating a lot of ice cream lately, and I think
piling on cheesecake on top of that, it's like it's risky.
It's risky, risky, proper, really ruining the weekend. Now, no
heart feelings? Okay, Okay, the next time, Yes, let's add
to the list. So in this cheesecake and champagne, and
then what else should we add every time we add? Yeah,
(01:10):
until we actually finally do it. Yeah, I think we
need like balloons or confetti. Let's see what. I actually
really love some Mason jars. So if you have any
white mouth, like okay, oh, I can help you. Yeah, yeah,
we're getting really practical here. But say, by the end
of this, we're gonna have like a table of full
plight setting. It sounds like we're going all in gift
(01:31):
giving one on one holiday seasons coming up. So that's true,
And we could be our own version of the Finer
Things Club from Yeah. People will be like, what are
they up to? Or the Wine and Cheese Club from
Box and Reck. Yes, we can rewind. No, yeah I don't.
I'm out in the references. I'm sorry. I feel like
this happens every time there's one person who just like, right,
(01:54):
there's one Yeah, we got the SpongeBob, we got it,
You've got that. I've never seen the Office our parks
and so really yeah, well it's just a fancy club basically.
And I would don't watch The Office because it's not dated.
Well oh really, yeah, it's hard for um um Tracy,
who is a manager. She always said it was so
(02:16):
hard for her to watch because it's terrible management. Really
that was exactly Yeah, an incompetent dude trying to run
an office. Yep, yep. But the Finer Things Club was
lovely and we can have our own version. I think
we'll have to have a table cough, but we'll we'll
workshop that outside of this this podcast episode. Um, who
(02:39):
did you bring for us today? Eves? Today is whoda
are we? So? She is a really really important figure
in feminist and Egyptian history. Um the first. The first
is that she was the first president of the Arab
Feminist Union, and she has some other first thrown in
there as well. But uh, you did a lot of
(03:01):
stuff and was like she had her hands in a
lot of pots when it came to feminism. And yeah,
so we're going to talk about her today. There's this
idea that Westerners have often assumed that women in the
Middle East and in North Africa are oppressed by Islam
and men, and that they have no rights and no autonomy,
(03:21):
and that there is this whole rhetoric that women needed
to be liberated from that kind of practice that continues today.
You know, there are a lot of conversations around veils
and around um, you know, coverings, but there that view
that women are like universally oppressed and passive about the
practices that they were subjected to and that they haven't
(03:42):
advocated or organized for themselves is just not accurate. It's
rooted in stereotyping, it's rooted in imperialism, is rooted in
saviorism and misconceptions and like all of those things. And
obviously she she was born in eighteen seventy nine, so
things are a lot were a lot different than than
they are today. Things are not we're not Western. You know,
(04:05):
there's the issue of time, there's the issue of place.
But um, yeah, like she just did so much. I'm
really excited to talk about her today. She did at
um and I think this is one um we and
we've talked about this before and kind of our anxiety
around first, but this is one where the context and
time period is so important. Yes, um yeah, And I
(04:28):
do always love to do that disclaimer of like there's
a reason that a person it was the first. They're
situated in a certain time and place, and that means
that there are probably people left out of the conversation
and people who contributed it that aren't that aren't mentioned.
But also like had a huge role in what there
first was, and that first are always an issue of access,
(04:49):
and like in Hudasha always instance, she was wealthy, um,
and a lot of the struggle or a lot of
the work that she was doing also happened with it
middle class and upper class circles, but there were also
lower class women who were participating in their own you know,
in their own ways. Right. It's also as always an
(05:10):
issue of like what gets recorded and what doesn't exactly, Yes,
that's a big one, it is. But all that disclaimer aside,
we do have a lot to talk about, So why
don't we get started. Let's do it. So, as I said,
she was born in eighteen seventy nine and her family's
estate in Egypt, and her father was Sultan of Pasha
(05:33):
and he was a wealthy landowner, and he was a
government official as well, and so she was raised in Cairo,
and it was common for upper class Egyptian men to
have a wife, to have secondary wives, to have concubines,
and that was the household that she was born into.
So she lived with her mother Ikeball Hannum, and her
father's wife Hassiba, and her brother and her father's other
(05:56):
children and servants and enslaved people. And so there is
Igva Hanum. Her mother was a Circassian refugee, and the
Circassians are in Northwest Caucasian ethnic group. But some historians
have said that she was a concubine of her father,
but Huda said in her personal memoirs that her mother
(06:17):
and her father were married, so there's a little bit
of discarpancy over that. Um. So yeah, her father died
when she was really young. He died of kidney disease
when she was five years old, And as was typical
for elite girls at the time, she grew up studying
with tutors at home um, and she was taught Arabic, Persian,
Turkish and French, and she studied music, the Koran, calligraphy,
(06:41):
poetry and the piano and all the things. Who yeah, um, yeah,
it's that's intense, um. But before she was tenned she
had memorized parts of the Koran, and her memoirs she
says that she really loved poetry, and that love increased
because she got visits from the Tenerant poet Sayeda Kadija
(07:01):
al Magribia. She visited their house often, and she wrote
that Sayeda Kadija impressed me because she used to sit
with the men and discussed literary and cultural matters. Meanwhile,
I observed how women without learning would tremble with embarrassment
and fright if called upon to speak a few words
to a man from behind a screen observing, sayeda. Kadija
(07:25):
convinced me that with learning, women could be equals of men,
if not surpassed them. My admiration for her continued to grow,
and I yearned to be like her in spite of
her ugly face. And that's that's like a turn up
in a good day day that was unexpected. It was
so unexcited because I saw this quote in places and
they always left that part off of the animal memoir
(07:46):
and I saw that and I was like, whoa, whoa,
that was strong. It is what it is, it is. Um.
We have a lot more to discuss with you listeners,
but first we have a quick break rich from our sponsor,
(08:13):
and we're back. Thank you sponsor. And that's I mean,
that's something we've talked about a lot on the show,
is the importance of like seeing yourself and especially at
a young age, and thinking, oh, well, then that is
an avenue available for me. And that's something also that's
come up in a lot of these females. First, I'm
always kind of surprised at their circle, if you will,
like the cameo famous historical Wow, because it does seem
(08:38):
to be a pretty big impact or influencer on a
lot of the women we've talked about. Is these people
kind of come into their lives and they witnessed like, wow,
look at that. Yeah, I think that's really cool too
because a lot of the time, um, like you know,
that's also a question of access, like who could be around.
That doesn't mean that you know that there aren't people
(09:01):
who are super influential and super intelligent and super talented
that are of you know, the lower class, but you
know it, it's it's really good to have somebody to
look to that right, you know, I can say this
is possible for me having that connection and also open
doors for you people to hear of you. Yeah, that's
why people who may not be in that same circle
(09:23):
because those famous people will be the ones that influence.
Oh so so is coming up and you should get
to know them and they've done these things, which is
awesome if you can have it. Networking is beautiful if
you can work out it can't be I'm sing you
guys have had some negative experiences. I'm not great at network,
but you're better than you think. Yeah, I'll take that anyway,
(09:46):
came back. She has an amazing influence who was not
so pretty fantastic. She's well, we don't know that for sure,
that's her. We're not anything. But it is interesting that
she had to say that, as if it was something
that could hold it held her back, right, Yeah, like
there was a there was a chance that I wasn't
going to make this happen because she's ugly. Yeah, but
(10:08):
beyond that, keep going. Her younger brother Umar Sultan got
more attention than her, and she often voiced her frustrations
about that, about him being favored because he was a boy,
and she often voiced her frustrations to Hassiba, her father's
widow at this point um And she called Hassiba boom cabra,
(10:28):
which means big mother in Arabic. And though she spent
time around boys when she was young, like her brother,
her neighbor, and the sons of family friends, she was
restricted to the company of women and girls around the
age of eleven, so women and men were separated, with
girls and women restricted to a part of the house
(10:49):
called the harem, and so she had to talk from
two men from behind the screen. So women in seclusion
were guarded by eunuchs who were usually cash aided enslaved
men from Sudan, and as Marianne Faye puts it in
the book Unveiling, the harem, veiling in seclusion go hand
(11:09):
in hand as outside the home as veiling mate women
unapproachable by men and effectively constructed a harem around them
outside the home. So she was already becoming frustrated with
tender rolls when she was thirteen years old and her
family arranged her marriage to her cousin and legal guardian
(11:32):
Ali sha are We, who was in his late forties.
She didn't want to marry him, so her mother put
in the marriage contract that he had to dump his
concubine who he was with at the time and had
children with, and live with just sh are We. So
he broke the contract, and when his concubine got pregnant
(11:53):
with his child and she she was like, I'm deeping
and lived away from and for like seven years until
he was twenty one years old, until she was twenty
one years old, excuse me. So during that time she
became close to a woman named Eugenie Lebron, and Lebron
was a frenchwoman who was married to an Egyptian man
(12:15):
who had written books on Egyptian social customs. So are we.
You know, she's starting to meet all these people like
we talked about earlier, who influenced her. So ch are
We went to salons that Lebron hosted at her home
in the eighteen nineties, and those discussions often turned to
current events, to education, to social practices, and Lebron exposed
(12:37):
to are we to even more ideas of Western feminism,
and Lebron suggested that the veil was a thing that
was hindering Egyptian women's advancement. So in nineteen hundred, you know,
years go by and nineteen hundred, share We returned to
life with her husband and they had two children around
that time, like within the next five years, they had
(12:58):
a couple of children. And then she met a French
woman named Marguerite Clement who was a lecturer and was
touring the Middle East on a Carnegie endowment, and Clemant
detailed her public speaking events to show are we, and
she are we decided to take up that task on
her own and do her own public lectures for Egyptian women,
(13:19):
and she began doing these public lectures in Cairo, regularly
after she did her first one, and they were pretty
much a hit, like they were, you know, women coming
out to do this in public. In nineteen no way,
she helped found the first secular philanthropic organization operated by
Egyptian women, medical Dispensary for under privileged women and children,
and it was established through private donations, through fundraising and
(13:42):
other incomes. So she advocated for women less services and
you know, social projects because they allowed women to get
more practical knowledge and challenged notions of women as these
subservient people, as who were just objects of pleasure. And
this education is a huge thing in her story. UM
(14:04):
women women learning through experience and women having access to
the same education that boys and men had access to. UM.
That comes up a lot in her story. That's something
that she was really passionate about, and we'll talk a
little bit more about that later. So she thought that
rich folks should give back through donations and other charity,
(14:25):
but she did kind of have in a way a
limited dualistic view of the rich as protectors and the
poor as people who received services and kind of had
no say in the matter. She created the Intellectual Association
of Egyptian Women in nineteen fourteen, which worked to improve
women's intellectual and their social lives. So at this point,
(14:47):
gender separation was still typical for women of the middle
and upper classes, but they were starting to abandon those
seclusion practices and taking teaching jobs, participating in the press,
and participating in charities and literary societies. So should are
we criticized the restrictions that were put on elite women
(15:07):
by seclusion and veiling, and it was dissatisfied with concubinage
and polygamy, and you know, supported the restriction of polygamy.
And so the Egyptian Revolution of nineteen nineteen is a
part of her story. It was a revolution that was
against Britain's occupation of Egypt and Sudan. And obviously this
(15:30):
happened a lot with Britain has an imperialist power, revolutions
against them as the colonial authorities in Egypt is no exception.
So Assaultanate of Egypt was declared a British protectorate in
nineteen fourteen, but Egyptians soon began calling for Egyptian complete autonomy.
So just after the November eleventh, nineteen eighteen Armistice, a
(15:53):
delegation that was called a waft of Egyptian nationalists made
a request to the High Commissioner Reginald Wingate to end
the British protectorate in Egypt in Sudan and get Egyptian
representation at the next peace conference in Paris, but the
British government refused to accept that delegation and the WAFF
it soon turned into a nationalist organization and then later
(16:16):
into a political party, a nationalist political party, and so
at the same time there was also a movement, like
a groundswell movement for Egyptian and Sudanese independence, and women's role,
of course was huge and integral in that struggle. Don't
let anybody ever tell you otherwise. Always there. Um Shari
(16:40):
and her husband became leaders in the Egyptian independence movement,
and in nineteen nineteen she organized a protest and called
on other women to take to the streets and protests
of British role. A lot of that happening with her
and her husband was a member of the nationalists WAFFE
party and in nineteen twenty she became the president of
the waft is Women's Central Committee and she led women's demonstrations.
(17:04):
She set up petitions and protests against colonial authority. She
raised funds, and she maintained communications when Waffett members were
locked up or exiled, and obviously she mobilized women across
Egypt to join the movement too. And so in nine
two she had a women's meeting at her house where
they decided to boycott British goods and take their money
(17:27):
out of British banks, organizing more organizing for the cause.
And so Egypt became a constitutional monarchy in nineteen and
under that designation, it was still under British control. So
the last troops weren't withdrawn until nineteen fifty seven, so
much later. But you know, a lot happened between those
(17:48):
two times, but there was still a lot that had
to be done in terms of like their autonomy and
so mal At this point the Waffett Party was like
more active, and then they had more Egyptians had more
of a role in politics and legislation and all that stuff.
(18:08):
And so male nationalists had argued for education for women
so women could become better homemakers and mothers, especially to
sons who were going to grow up We've seen this
happen before, who were going to grow up in participating
in the economy and participate in government. But they were
largely dismissive of the idea of women in the workforce.
(18:30):
And as we'll see later, she argues like intellectualism and
education is important in creating good mothers and you know
people who are too able to participate in society essentially,
and so women's role in the home became integral to
the nationalist mission of building the state and its power.
(18:52):
But under Egypt's new constitution, women weren't granted the right
to vote, and so they felt but by that where
it was something that they were promised and something that
they had worked so hard for themselves UM because the
Waffett had agreed to grant them women's suffrage UM social
Aari and other women were really frustrated with the party
(19:14):
for its lack of commitment to feminism and how it
treated women's rights as less important than the independence movement,
and so she and other women left the Central Committee,
the Women's Central Committee in in nineteen three. This is
a big part of her story. She founded the Egyptian
Feminist Union UM and that was made up of middle
(19:34):
and upper class women and so it advocated for women's suffrage,
for women's education, change and personal status laws. It also
continued to fight for full Egyptian independence and advocated for
equal political rights for women, more employment opportunities, and like
other stuff, A lot of stuff, a lot of things. Yeah,
(19:57):
and then established clinics, schools, scholarships, and literacy programs. And
we'll talk more about what it did. But like in
the end, it didn't accomplish all of its goals. Um.
But there were some games that were made during Huda
Shaw's lifetime. It paved the way for later feminists, and
so feminist efforts that were once intertwined with the independence
(20:21):
clause from Britain became more focused on changing Egypsium societal
norms regarding women. She are we said that if women's
status continued to be defined by their familiar roles and
their rights remained limited, then that would limit the progress
of society, including men's. That would limit the future of civilization. Um.
(20:41):
And so this is where we get into like her
philosophy is developing a little bit more. And she emphasized
the importance of women and girls education as a way
for them to be critically and intellectually engaged in society
as a path toward more autonomy. And social improvement and
being just all in all better moral beings. She advocated
(21:02):
for public schools for everyone, and that women have access
to all educational facilities in Egypt, and that women were
able to pursue the same professions as men, and that
women should be represented in parliament. And there were a
lot of conservative people who obviously did not were not
on board with all of these ideas. This fight for
(21:23):
women's rights in Egypt was alone and protracted, and the
thing that happened over a period of many years. So
she was still, you know, I brought up the moral
beings thing. Her feminism was still anchored within Islam. So
she subscribed to the idea of ishto hide or independent
inquiry and interpreting the Koran as opposed to accepting uncritical
(21:46):
legal prescriptions of Islam. And this goes back to a
theory that was uh proposed or developed by men in
the past that she kind of walked her way into
that discourse, and so she developed her ideas based on
that theory. And she claimed that society was denying women
their Islamic rights since Islam didn't deny women access to education,
(22:10):
and it was in fact, quote misogyny masquerading as Islam,
as doctor Rula Quaas, and I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly.
But as doctor Rula Kualas put it once, and that
that actually relegated with Muslim women to inferior status. She
recognized that Islam actually valued gender equality and hard work
(22:32):
and afforded women rights that they weren't granted and practiced
in society at the time, and so so are we
in a couple of other Egyptian women went to the
ninth Congress of the International Women's Suffrage Alliance in Rome
in May of nine, and so in her speech there
she argued that Islam granted women equal rights to men
(22:53):
and that the Kuran had been misinterpreted. And when she
got back to Egypt, that's when one of the bolic
moves of her life happened, and she removed her veil
in public at a Cairo train station, which signaled her
embrace of her role as a public leader in the
women's movement in Egypt. Yeah, and so though it's a
(23:15):
like a symbolic move that's really highlighted in her story
and has a lot of weight in telling of her story,
she advocated for a gradual approach to removing the veil.
And yeah, she didn't spend a ton of time on
the issue, she obviously did a lot though she definitely
(23:36):
did Um. She advocated for women working to gain financial
independence and for a minimum age for marriage, so this
is where the familial the family law comes in. And
she also works to limit easy access that man had
to divorce, and to restrict the practice of polygamy, as
we said earlier, and to abolish the forcible restitution of
(23:58):
a wife to her husband, and for divorced women to
keep their children for a longer period because it was
limited at the time. So there was a little progress
in those family laws. In nineteen three, Egypt's parliament raised
the minimum age of marriage for girls to sixteen, and
there was a little progress on divorce laws, but it
(24:19):
was still harder for a woman to get a divorce
than a man to get a divorce. And in nineteen
nine they did extend the period of a mother's custody
over her children, so a little progress happening um. And
so also in education, primary education specifically for for everybody
(24:41):
was made compulsory, so for girls and boys. And she
also helped start the Club of the Women's Union which
raised funds to support the clinic and dispensary, craft workshops,
child care facilities, and journals on women's issues. What was
it when was the law place for the sixteen year old?
That was nineteen twenty five? No, that was I believe
(25:05):
ye say, was that before even the US? Yeah, that's
the thing about a lot of this did happen before us,
so much more progressive because even still there was still
a liphole until like the two thousand's. Yeah, for underage
kids to be married, child brides are child married to me,
(25:26):
that's damn yeah, go ahead, Yeah, that's I guess a lot.
I feel like a lot of people like, don't put it,
put that in context. That's the hard thing about because
because the myth is so pervasive that like the east
is more backwards than the west end, and they see
veils and they're like, this is not our idea of
feminism and of progress and of right, even though ours
(25:49):
is still us specifically rooted in religion as well. It's
so easy to be so hypocritical. And also just like
we're not educated, Uh, we're often not educated about realities,
and we have no other basis but the myth. So
it's like, yeah, anyway, that's a whole like other conversation.
(26:15):
Good to note though, that that is something that was
so much more progressive before the U S, which we
see as the standard of progression. You're like, no, no,
look at what's been happening. She also advocated for a
Palestinian women who lost their homes during the establishment of Israel,
and she was influenced by the nationalist movement in Palestine
(26:35):
and began to define nationalism and pan Arab rather than
Egyptian terms, and was framing feminism within those terms and
became a little bit more doubtful of Western feminists. She
was also a leader in the International Alliance for Women's
Suffrage and advocated for women's political rights and suffrage, even
(26:55):
though women in Egypt didn't gain the vote until nineteen
fifty six UM, which is after her death, and so
as more and more women joined the workforce, the Prince
of Egypt announced his opposition to women working outside the home,
and a journal that she established, Legion, She responded and
(27:15):
she said, this Muslim law clearly acknowledges and advocates the
equality of the sexes and does not ascribe one domain
of work to one more than the other. And then
she went on to say, it is as if your
highness has forgotten that our religion had given the woman
the free range and right to dispose of her goods
in any way she sees fit. She is able to
(27:37):
sell and secure a mortgage, and to bequeath and to testify.
And then she went on to say, the great law
giver has high reverence for the woman, but man refuses
to admit that and grant her respect, owing to his
self cinered nous, he wishes to constrain woman and deny
her any field of action. So the same idea that
(27:58):
this is not the is not accurate. Right, this is
not based in any reality of Islam. It's what right
he was saying. They're like challenging the interpretation of the
people in power. Oh yeah, that was solid burn. No, no, no, yeah,
I was agreeing with you. That's what that look was
(28:20):
like a little bit of shock. What agreement to work
on my expression? Don't we mine aren't good. We have
a little bit more for you listeners, but first we
have one more quick break for work from our sponsor.
(28:48):
And we're back. Thank you sponsor. Let's get back into it.
So she was essentially informing the Arab Feminist Union in
which promoted gender equality and Arab nationalism, and she played
a key role in founding it and organizing within it,
and she became the first president of that organization. And
(29:11):
so yeah, she continued her work basically until she died,
and she died in nineteen forty seven. Two years before
that she was recognized and when she was given the
highest decoration in Egypt called the Nichean al Kamal Award,
that happened in nineteen and yes, so she she died
in nineteen forty seven in Cairo. After that, the name
(29:33):
of the e FU was changed to the Shari Society
for the Feminist Renaissance. And even though a lot of
the things the e F you worked for weren't completely
gained in her lifetime, there was obviously a lot of
progress afterward, a lot of people who were inspired by
the work that she did, and a lot of changes,
you know, and in terms of the things that her
(29:56):
philosophy and you know, the things that she advocated for
h as feminism changes over time as well, you know,
I know, um, not everything that she fought for or
the way that she fought is everybody even within the
Arab community or for Muslims or for feminists is going
to be the same. But she really laid the groundwork
(30:17):
for a lot of political activism that was to happen
in the coming years and to this day. And she
supported women and women's movements in other countries besides Europe Dan.
She also shifted mindsets and behaviors and culture at the
time for women and for others, and shifted power relations
between men and women. And so you know, as we
(30:39):
spoke of, she extended a lot of educational and professional
like what jobs were available to women at the time.
She extended that a lot during her lifetime. And yeah,
that's that's her story and her legacy. That's a pretty
good one. Don't intense large legacy. It's a long, long,
long list of even its Yeah, I think it's a
(31:03):
great example of, um One, how feminism does touch on
so much more than people realize. Sometimes I think like
it involves everything, um and just all the issues she
was working on. To me, I feel like that could
be an entire lifetime just doing that because she was
working on so many um and even still kind of
(31:24):
translate to today even when we talk about women in
job bills, talking about equal pay and equal opportunity still
like a necessary need everywhere, And she was at the
beginning in voicing that in what we would have again
as we established, Oh, this is so backwards compared to
but it's not. They've been trying to do this. They've
been trying to fix this. Yeah, and even the idea
(31:46):
of the fact that a lot of the things that
we even aspired to our Western ideals of what we
think needs to be achieved, like a Western ideal of democracy. R.
This is the only way things can happen for progress
to be achieved in that necessarily the case. Yeah, Um,
I love that you bring people from all over because
(32:09):
I think in our our little US bubble, Um, it's
easy to forget that there's so much the right, so
much how young who we are as a country. And yeah, absolutely,
I forget that all the time. And then wait a minute,
like in ninety b c. Yeah, what we don't have that?
(32:30):
What is that I don't even understand that I don't know,
um yeah, yeah, And I do think it's worth reminding
ourselves because it can be very exhausting and tiring to
fight these fights all the time, and it just it
does take It does take take time while we're still
doing it. Yeah, that's the thing is. And we recently
(32:52):
talked about the perception of good news versus bad news,
and good news can take so much longer that we
don't see it sometimes time. So it's great that we're
recognizing these these women who have made changes. Yeah, I
think it's also very interesting to see their journey of
enlightenment and like, what is the thing that made them
(33:13):
fight as hard as they did, and was the thing
that inspire are the people who inspire them to participate
in politics, are in activism or in organizing. I think
that's always a fascinating thing to see because every like
all these women come at it in such different ways
and come at it from such different viewpoints. Like, as
(33:35):
we know, she was wealthy, and it just really highlights
how vast and how much of a spectrum it is
when it comes to the things that people face and
the similarities in the differences and people struggles. Yeah, I
love that one of her big points was that she
(33:57):
saw that her younger brother was getting more respected there.
I love that this isn't right saying like like she
loved him, but yeah, she had a few look's like
it's not your fault, Guy's not your fault, but it's
still not fair. I love it. I love it so much. Well,
(34:18):
this was wonderful as always, Eaves, thanks for joining us,
Thank you for having me. Where can the listeners find you?
So you can listen to me on any of the
various podcast listening platforms on the shows This Day in
History Class or the show I'm Popular. You can look
(34:39):
us up on the Facebook, the Instagram, the Twitter, all
of the things at You can just find us on
Unpopular if you look at the Unpopular podcast or the
same in History Class and that's it. I like a
(35:00):
good and with a dramatic at least dot dot dot Nope,
that's awesome. Well yeah, certainly go check that out for
for more stories like this, listeners um and also, if
you have any suggestions for some good female first you
can send them to us. Our email is Stuff Media,
(35:20):
mom Stuff at iHeart Media dot com. You can find
us on Instagram at stuff and I've Never Told You,
or on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast. Thanks to our
guest Eves, thanks to our super producer Andrew Howard, and
thanks to you for listening Stuff I've Never Told you
his protection of i heeart Radios How stuff Works. For
more podcast from i Heeart Radio is to be a
(35:41):
heart radio, app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to stuff.
I never told you a protection of I Heart Radio's
house Stuff word. You know what time it is? It's
that time? What time? It's time for another female first Yes,
which means we are joined once again by our good
(00:27):
friend and colleague ease. Welcome Ea, Hello there, and we
don't get to see often because she's so busy, aren't
we all? It's true, it is true, and I have
some terrible news. I did not bring the cheesecake or champagne.
I have you know what it's okay, Honestly, I've been
(00:48):
eating a lot of ice cream lately, and I think
piling on cheesecake on top of that, it's like it's risky.
It's risky, risky, proper, really ruining the weekend. Now, no
heart feelings? Okay, Okay, the next time, Yes, let's add
to the list. So in this cheesecake and champagne, and
then what else should we add every time we add? Yeah,
(01:10):
until we actually finally do it. Yeah, I think we
need like balloons or confetti. Let's see what. I actually
really love some Mason jars. So if you have any
white mouth, like okay, oh, I can help you. Yeah, yeah,
we're getting really practical here. But say, by the end
of this, we're gonna have like a table of full
plight setting. It sounds like we're going all in gift
(01:31):
giving one on one holiday seasons coming up. So that's true,
And we could be our own version of the Finer
Things Club from Yeah. People will be like, what are
they up to? Or the Wine and Cheese Club from
Box and Reck. Yes, we can rewind. No, yeah I don't.
I'm out in the references. I'm sorry. I feel like
this happens every time there's one person who just like, right,
(01:54):
there's one Yeah, we got the SpongeBob, we got it,
You've got that. I've never seen the Office our parks
and so really yeah, well it's just a fancy club basically.
And I would don't watch The Office because it's not dated.
Well oh really, yeah, it's hard for um um Tracy,
who is a manager. She always said it was so
(02:16):
hard for her to watch because it's terrible management. Really
that was exactly Yeah, an incompetent dude trying to run
an office. Yep, yep. But the Finer Things Club was
lovely and we can have our own version. I think
we'll have to have a table cough, but we'll we'll
workshop that outside of this this podcast episode. Um, who
(02:39):
did you bring for us today? Eves? Today is whoda
are we? So? She is a really really important figure
in feminist and Egyptian history. Um the first. The first
is that she was the first president of the Arab
Feminist Union, and she has some other first thrown in
there as well. But uh, you did a lot of
(03:01):
stuff and was like she had her hands in a
lot of pots when it came to feminism. And yeah,
so we're going to talk about her today. There's this
idea that Westerners have often assumed that women in the
Middle East and in North Africa are oppressed by Islam
and men, and that they have no rights and no autonomy,
(03:21):
and that there is this whole rhetoric that women needed
to be liberated from that kind of practice that continues today.
You know, there are a lot of conversations around veils
and around um, you know, coverings, but there that view
that women are like universally oppressed and passive about the
practices that they were subjected to and that they haven't
(03:42):
advocated or organized for themselves is just not accurate. It's
rooted in stereotyping, it's rooted in imperialism, is rooted in
saviorism and misconceptions and like all of those things. And
obviously she she was born in eighteen seventy nine, so
things are a lot were a lot different than than
they are today. Things are not we're not Western. You know,
(04:05):
there's the issue of time, there's the issue of place.
But um, yeah, like she just did so much. I'm
really excited to talk about her today. She did at
um and I think this is one um we and
we've talked about this before and kind of our anxiety
around first, but this is one where the context and
time period is so important. Yes, um yeah, And I
(04:28):
do always love to do that disclaimer of like there's
a reason that a person it was the first. They're
situated in a certain time and place, and that means
that there are probably people left out of the conversation
and people who contributed it that aren't that aren't mentioned.
But also like had a huge role in what there
first was, and that first are always an issue of access,
(04:49):
and like in Hudasha always instance, she was wealthy, um,
and a lot of the struggle or a lot of
the work that she was doing also happened with it
middle class and upper class circles, but there were also
lower class women who were participating in their own you know,
in their own ways. Right. It's also as always an
(05:10):
issue of like what gets recorded and what doesn't exactly, Yes,
that's a big one, it is. But all that disclaimer aside,
we do have a lot to talk about, So why
don't we get started. Let's do it. So, as I said,
she was born in eighteen seventy nine and her family's
estate in Egypt, and her father was Sultan of Pasha
(05:33):
and he was a wealthy landowner, and he was a
government official as well, and so she was raised in Cairo,
and it was common for upper class Egyptian men to
have a wife, to have secondary wives, to have concubines,
and that was the household that she was born into.
So she lived with her mother Ikeball Hannum, and her
father's wife Hassiba, and her brother and her father's other
(05:56):
children and servants and enslaved people. And so there is
Igva Hanum. Her mother was a Circassian refugee, and the
Circassians are in Northwest Caucasian ethnic group. But some historians
have said that she was a concubine of her father,
but Huda said in her personal memoirs that her mother
(06:17):
and her father were married, so there's a little bit
of discarpancy over that. Um. So yeah, her father died
when she was really young. He died of kidney disease
when she was five years old, And as was typical
for elite girls at the time, she grew up studying
with tutors at home um, and she was taught Arabic, Persian,
Turkish and French, and she studied music, the Koran, calligraphy,
(06:41):
poetry and the piano and all the things. Who yeah, um, yeah,
it's that's intense, um. But before she was tenned she
had memorized parts of the Koran, and her memoirs she
says that she really loved poetry, and that love increased
because she got visits from the Tenerant poet Sayeda Kadija
(07:01):
al Magribia. She visited their house often, and she wrote
that Sayeda Kadija impressed me because she used to sit
with the men and discussed literary and cultural matters. Meanwhile,
I observed how women without learning would tremble with embarrassment
and fright if called upon to speak a few words
to a man from behind a screen observing, sayeda. Kadija
(07:25):
convinced me that with learning, women could be equals of men,
if not surpassed them. My admiration for her continued to grow,
and I yearned to be like her in spite of
her ugly face. And that's that's like a turn up
in a good day day that was unexpected. It was
so unexcited because I saw this quote in places and
they always left that part off of the animal memoir
(07:46):
and I saw that and I was like, whoa, whoa,
that was strong. It is what it is, it is. Um.
We have a lot more to discuss with you listeners,
but first we have a quick break rich from our sponsor,
(08:13):
and we're back. Thank you sponsor. And that's I mean,
that's something we've talked about a lot on the show,
is the importance of like seeing yourself and especially at
a young age, and thinking, oh, well, then that is
an avenue available for me. And that's something also that's
come up in a lot of these females. First, I'm
always kind of surprised at their circle, if you will,
like the cameo famous historical Wow, because it does seem
(08:38):
to be a pretty big impact or influencer on a
lot of the women we've talked about. Is these people
kind of come into their lives and they witnessed like, wow,
look at that. Yeah, I think that's really cool too
because a lot of the time, um, like you know,
that's also a question of access, like who could be around.
That doesn't mean that you know that there aren't people
(09:01):
who are super influential and super intelligent and super talented
that are of you know, the lower class, but you
know it, it's it's really good to have somebody to
look to that right, you know, I can say this
is possible for me having that connection and also open
doors for you people to hear of you. Yeah, that's
why people who may not be in that same circle
(09:23):
because those famous people will be the ones that influence.
Oh so so is coming up and you should get
to know them and they've done these things, which is
awesome if you can have it. Networking is beautiful if
you can work out it can't be I'm sing you
guys have had some negative experiences. I'm not great at network,
but you're better than you think. Yeah, I'll take that anyway,
(09:46):
came back. She has an amazing influence who was not
so pretty fantastic. She's well, we don't know that for sure,
that's her. We're not anything. But it is interesting that
she had to say that, as if it was something
that could hold it held her back, right, Yeah, like
there was a there was a chance that I wasn't
going to make this happen because she's ugly. Yeah, but
(10:08):
beyond that, keep going. Her younger brother Umar Sultan got
more attention than her, and she often voiced her frustrations
about that, about him being favored because he was a boy,
and she often voiced her frustrations to Hassiba, her father's
widow at this point um And she called Hassiba boom cabra,
(10:28):
which means big mother in Arabic. And though she spent
time around boys when she was young, like her brother,
her neighbor, and the sons of family friends, she was
restricted to the company of women and girls around the
age of eleven, so women and men were separated, with
girls and women restricted to a part of the house
(10:49):
called the harem, and so she had to talk from
two men from behind the screen. So women in seclusion
were guarded by eunuchs who were usually cash aided enslaved
men from Sudan, and as Marianne Faye puts it in
the book Unveiling, the harem, veiling in seclusion go hand
(11:09):
in hand as outside the home as veiling mate women
unapproachable by men and effectively constructed a harem around them
outside the home. So she was already becoming frustrated with
tender rolls when she was thirteen years old and her
family arranged her marriage to her cousin and legal guardian
(11:32):
Ali sha are We, who was in his late forties.
She didn't want to marry him, so her mother put
in the marriage contract that he had to dump his
concubine who he was with at the time and had
children with, and live with just sh are We. So
he broke the contract, and when his concubine got pregnant
(11:53):
with his child and she she was like, I'm deeping
and lived away from and for like seven years until
he was twenty one years old, until she was twenty
one years old, excuse me. So during that time she
became close to a woman named Eugenie Lebron, and Lebron
was a frenchwoman who was married to an Egyptian man
(12:15):
who had written books on Egyptian social customs. So are we.
You know, she's starting to meet all these people like
we talked about earlier, who influenced her. So ch are
We went to salons that Lebron hosted at her home
in the eighteen nineties, and those discussions often turned to
current events, to education, to social practices, and Lebron exposed
(12:37):
to are we to even more ideas of Western feminism,
and Lebron suggested that the veil was a thing that
was hindering Egyptian women's advancement. So in nineteen hundred, you know,
years go by and nineteen hundred, share We returned to
life with her husband and they had two children around
that time, like within the next five years, they had
(12:58):
a couple of children. And then she met a French
woman named Marguerite Clement who was a lecturer and was
touring the Middle East on a Carnegie endowment, and Clemant
detailed her public speaking events to show are we, and
she are we decided to take up that task on
her own and do her own public lectures for Egyptian women,
(13:19):
and she began doing these public lectures in Cairo, regularly
after she did her first one, and they were pretty
much a hit, like they were, you know, women coming
out to do this in public. In nineteen no way,
she helped found the first secular philanthropic organization operated by
Egyptian women, medical Dispensary for under privileged women and children,
and it was established through private donations, through fundraising and
(13:42):
other incomes. So she advocated for women less services and
you know, social projects because they allowed women to get
more practical knowledge and challenged notions of women as these
subservient people, as who were just objects of pleasure. And
this education is a huge thing in her story. UM
(14:04):
women women learning through experience and women having access to
the same education that boys and men had access to. UM.
That comes up a lot in her story. That's something
that she was really passionate about, and we'll talk a
little bit more about that later. So she thought that
rich folks should give back through donations and other charity,
(14:25):
but she did kind of have in a way a
limited dualistic view of the rich as protectors and the
poor as people who received services and kind of had
no say in the matter. She created the Intellectual Association
of Egyptian Women in nineteen fourteen, which worked to improve
women's intellectual and their social lives. So at this point,
(14:47):
gender separation was still typical for women of the middle
and upper classes, but they were starting to abandon those
seclusion practices and taking teaching jobs, participating in the press,
and participating in charities and literary societies. So should are
we criticized the restrictions that were put on elite women
(15:07):
by seclusion and veiling, and it was dissatisfied with concubinage
and polygamy, and you know, supported the restriction of polygamy.
And so the Egyptian Revolution of nineteen nineteen is a
part of her story. It was a revolution that was
against Britain's occupation of Egypt and Sudan. And obviously this
(15:30):
happened a lot with Britain has an imperialist power, revolutions
against them as the colonial authorities in Egypt is no exception.
So Assaultanate of Egypt was declared a British protectorate in
nineteen fourteen, but Egyptians soon began calling for Egyptian complete autonomy.
So just after the November eleventh, nineteen eighteen Armistice, a
(15:53):
delegation that was called a waft of Egyptian nationalists made
a request to the High Commissioner Reginald Wingate to end
the British protectorate in Egypt in Sudan and get Egyptian
representation at the next peace conference in Paris, but the
British government refused to accept that delegation and the WAFF
it soon turned into a nationalist organization and then later
(16:16):
into a political party, a nationalist political party, and so
at the same time there was also a movement, like
a groundswell movement for Egyptian and Sudanese independence, and women's role,
of course was huge and integral in that struggle. Don't
let anybody ever tell you otherwise. Always there. Um Shari
(16:40):
and her husband became leaders in the Egyptian independence movement,
and in nineteen nineteen she organized a protest and called
on other women to take to the streets and protests
of British role. A lot of that happening with her
and her husband was a member of the nationalists WAFFE
party and in nineteen twenty she became the president of
the waft is Women's Central Committee and she led women's demonstrations.
(17:04):
She set up petitions and protests against colonial authority. She
raised funds, and she maintained communications when Waffett members were
locked up or exiled, and obviously she mobilized women across
Egypt to join the movement too. And so in nine
two she had a women's meeting at her house where
they decided to boycott British goods and take their money
(17:27):
out of British banks, organizing more organizing for the cause.
And so Egypt became a constitutional monarchy in nineteen and
under that designation, it was still under British control. So
the last troops weren't withdrawn until nineteen fifty seven, so
much later. But you know, a lot happened between those
(17:48):
two times, but there was still a lot that had
to be done in terms of like their autonomy and
so mal At this point the Waffett Party was like
more active, and then they had more Egyptians had more
of a role in politics and legislation and all that stuff.
(18:08):
And so male nationalists had argued for education for women
so women could become better homemakers and mothers, especially to
sons who were going to grow up We've seen this
happen before, who were going to grow up in participating
in the economy and participate in government. But they were
largely dismissive of the idea of women in the workforce.
(18:30):
And as we'll see later, she argues like intellectualism and
education is important in creating good mothers and you know
people who are too able to participate in society essentially,
and so women's role in the home became integral to
the nationalist mission of building the state and its power.
(18:52):
But under Egypt's new constitution, women weren't granted the right
to vote, and so they felt but by that where
it was something that they were promised and something that
they had worked so hard for themselves UM because the
Waffett had agreed to grant them women's suffrage UM social
Aari and other women were really frustrated with the party
(19:14):
for its lack of commitment to feminism and how it
treated women's rights as less important than the independence movement,
and so she and other women left the Central Committee,
the Women's Central Committee in in nineteen three. This is
a big part of her story. She founded the Egyptian
Feminist Union UM and that was made up of middle
(19:34):
and upper class women and so it advocated for women's suffrage,
for women's education, change and personal status laws. It also
continued to fight for full Egyptian independence and advocated for
equal political rights for women, more employment opportunities, and like
other stuff, A lot of stuff, a lot of things. Yeah,
(19:57):
and then established clinics, schools, scholarships, and literacy programs. And
we'll talk more about what it did. But like in
the end, it didn't accomplish all of its goals. Um.
But there were some games that were made during Huda
Shaw's lifetime. It paved the way for later feminists, and
so feminist efforts that were once intertwined with the independence
(20:21):
clause from Britain became more focused on changing Egypsium societal
norms regarding women. She are we said that if women's
status continued to be defined by their familiar roles and
their rights remained limited, then that would limit the progress
of society, including men's. That would limit the future of civilization. Um.
(20:41):
And so this is where we get into like her
philosophy is developing a little bit more. And she emphasized
the importance of women and girls education as a way
for them to be critically and intellectually engaged in society
as a path toward more autonomy. And social improvement and
being just all in all better moral beings. She advocated
(21:02):
for public schools for everyone, and that women have access
to all educational facilities in Egypt, and that women were
able to pursue the same professions as men, and that
women should be represented in parliament. And there were a
lot of conservative people who obviously did not were not
on board with all of these ideas. This fight for
(21:23):
women's rights in Egypt was alone and protracted, and the
thing that happened over a period of many years. So
she was still, you know, I brought up the moral
beings thing. Her feminism was still anchored within Islam. So
she subscribed to the idea of ishto hide or independent
inquiry and interpreting the Koran as opposed to accepting uncritical
(21:46):
legal prescriptions of Islam. And this goes back to a
theory that was uh proposed or developed by men in
the past that she kind of walked her way into
that discourse, and so she developed her ideas based on
that theory. And she claimed that society was denying women
their Islamic rights since Islam didn't deny women access to education,
(22:10):
and it was in fact, quote misogyny masquerading as Islam,
as doctor Rula Quaas, and I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly.
But as doctor Rula Kualas put it once, and that
that actually relegated with Muslim women to inferior status. She
recognized that Islam actually valued gender equality and hard work
(22:32):
and afforded women rights that they weren't granted and practiced
in society at the time, and so so are we
in a couple of other Egyptian women went to the
ninth Congress of the International Women's Suffrage Alliance in Rome
in May of nine, and so in her speech there
she argued that Islam granted women equal rights to men
(22:53):
and that the Kuran had been misinterpreted. And when she
got back to Egypt, that's when one of the bolic
moves of her life happened, and she removed her veil
in public at a Cairo train station, which signaled her
embrace of her role as a public leader in the
women's movement in Egypt. Yeah, and so though it's a
(23:15):
like a symbolic move that's really highlighted in her story
and has a lot of weight in telling of her story,
she advocated for a gradual approach to removing the veil.
And yeah, she didn't spend a ton of time on
the issue, she obviously did a lot though she definitely
(23:36):
did Um. She advocated for women working to gain financial
independence and for a minimum age for marriage, so this
is where the familial the family law comes in. And
she also works to limit easy access that man had
to divorce, and to restrict the practice of polygamy, as
we said earlier, and to abolish the forcible restitution of
(23:58):
a wife to her husband, and for divorced women to
keep their children for a longer period because it was
limited at the time. So there was a little progress
in those family laws. In nineteen three, Egypt's parliament raised
the minimum age of marriage for girls to sixteen, and
there was a little progress on divorce laws, but it
(24:19):
was still harder for a woman to get a divorce
than a man to get a divorce. And in nineteen
nine they did extend the period of a mother's custody
over her children, so a little progress happening um. And
so also in education, primary education specifically for for everybody
(24:41):
was made compulsory, so for girls and boys. And she
also helped start the Club of the Women's Union which
raised funds to support the clinic and dispensary, craft workshops,
child care facilities, and journals on women's issues. What was
it when was the law place for the sixteen year old?
That was nineteen twenty five? No, that was I believe
(25:05):
ye say, was that before even the US? Yeah, that's
the thing about a lot of this did happen before us,
so much more progressive because even still there was still
a liphole until like the two thousand's. Yeah, for underage
kids to be married, child brides are child married to me,
(25:26):
that's damn yeah, go ahead, Yeah, that's I guess a lot.
I feel like a lot of people like, don't put it,
put that in context. That's the hard thing about because
because the myth is so pervasive that like the east
is more backwards than the west end, and they see
veils and they're like, this is not our idea of
feminism and of progress and of right, even though ours
(25:49):
is still us specifically rooted in religion as well. It's
so easy to be so hypocritical. And also just like
we're not educated, Uh, we're often not educated about realities,
and we have no other basis but the myth. So
it's like, yeah, anyway, that's a whole like other conversation.
(26:15):
Good to note though, that that is something that was
so much more progressive before the U S, which we
see as the standard of progression. You're like, no, no,
look at what's been happening. She also advocated for a
Palestinian women who lost their homes during the establishment of Israel,
and she was influenced by the nationalist movement in Palestine
(26:35):
and began to define nationalism and pan Arab rather than
Egyptian terms, and was framing feminism within those terms and
became a little bit more doubtful of Western feminists. She
was also a leader in the International Alliance for Women's
Suffrage and advocated for women's political rights and suffrage, even
(26:55):
though women in Egypt didn't gain the vote until nineteen
fifty six UM, which is after her death, and so
as more and more women joined the workforce, the Prince
of Egypt announced his opposition to women working outside the home,
and a journal that she established, Legion, She responded and
(27:15):
she said, this Muslim law clearly acknowledges and advocates the
equality of the sexes and does not ascribe one domain
of work to one more than the other. And then
she went on to say, it is as if your
highness has forgotten that our religion had given the woman
the free range and right to dispose of her goods
in any way she sees fit. She is able to
(27:37):
sell and secure a mortgage, and to bequeath and to testify.
And then she went on to say, the great law
giver has high reverence for the woman, but man refuses
to admit that and grant her respect, owing to his
self cinered nous, he wishes to constrain woman and deny
her any field of action. So the same idea that
(27:58):
this is not the is not accurate. Right, this is
not based in any reality of Islam. It's what right
he was saying. They're like challenging the interpretation of the
people in power. Oh yeah, that was solid burn. No, no, no, yeah,
I was agreeing with you. That's what that look was
(28:20):
like a little bit of shock. What agreement to work
on my expression? Don't we mine aren't good. We have
a little bit more for you listeners, but first we
have one more quick break for work from our sponsor.
(28:48):
And we're back. Thank you sponsor. Let's get back into it.
So she was essentially informing the Arab Feminist Union in
which promoted gender equality and Arab nationalism, and she played
a key role in founding it and organizing within it,
and she became the first president of that organization. And
(29:11):
so yeah, she continued her work basically until she died,
and she died in nineteen forty seven. Two years before
that she was recognized and when she was given the
highest decoration in Egypt called the Nichean al Kamal Award,
that happened in nineteen and yes, so she she died
in nineteen forty seven in Cairo. After that, the name
(29:33):
of the e FU was changed to the Shari Society
for the Feminist Renaissance. And even though a lot of
the things the e F you worked for weren't completely
gained in her lifetime, there was obviously a lot of
progress afterward, a lot of people who were inspired by
the work that she did, and a lot of changes,
you know, and in terms of the things that her
(29:56):
philosophy and you know, the things that she advocated for
h as feminism changes over time as well, you know,
I know, um, not everything that she fought for or
the way that she fought is everybody even within the
Arab community or for Muslims or for feminists is going
to be the same. But she really laid the groundwork
(30:17):
for a lot of political activism that was to happen
in the coming years and to this day. And she
supported women and women's movements in other countries besides Europe Dan.
She also shifted mindsets and behaviors and culture at the
time for women and for others, and shifted power relations
between men and women. And so you know, as we
(30:39):
spoke of, she extended a lot of educational and professional
like what jobs were available to women at the time.
She extended that a lot during her lifetime. And yeah,
that's that's her story and her legacy. That's a pretty
good one. Don't intense large legacy. It's a long, long,
long list of even its Yeah, I think it's a
(31:03):
great example of, um One, how feminism does touch on
so much more than people realize. Sometimes I think like
it involves everything, um and just all the issues she
was working on. To me, I feel like that could
be an entire lifetime just doing that because she was
working on so many um and even still kind of
(31:24):
translate to today even when we talk about women in
job bills, talking about equal pay and equal opportunity still
like a necessary need everywhere, And she was at the
beginning in voicing that in what we would have again
as we established, Oh, this is so backwards compared to
but it's not. They've been trying to do this. They've
been trying to fix this. Yeah, and even the idea
(31:46):
of the fact that a lot of the things that
we even aspired to our Western ideals of what we
think needs to be achieved, like a Western ideal of democracy. R.
This is the only way things can happen for progress
to be achieved in that necessarily the case. Yeah, Um,
I love that you bring people from all over because
(32:09):
I think in our our little US bubble, Um, it's
easy to forget that there's so much the right, so
much how young who we are as a country. And yeah, absolutely,
I forget that all the time. And then wait a minute,
like in ninety b c. Yeah, what we don't have that?
(32:30):
What is that I don't even understand that I don't know,
um yeah, yeah, And I do think it's worth reminding
ourselves because it can be very exhausting and tiring to
fight these fights all the time, and it just it
does take It does take take time while we're still
doing it. Yeah, that's the thing is. And we recently
(32:52):
talked about the perception of good news versus bad news,
and good news can take so much longer that we
don't see it sometimes time. So it's great that we're
recognizing these these women who have made changes. Yeah, I
think it's also very interesting to see their journey of
enlightenment and like, what is the thing that made them
(33:13):
fight as hard as they did, and was the thing
that inspire are the people who inspire them to participate
in politics, are in activism or in organizing. I think
that's always a fascinating thing to see because every like
all these women come at it in such different ways
and come at it from such different viewpoints. Like, as
(33:35):
we know, she was wealthy, and it just really highlights
how vast and how much of a spectrum it is
when it comes to the things that people face and
the similarities in the differences and people struggles. Yeah, I
love that one of her big points was that she
(33:57):
saw that her younger brother was getting more respected there.
I love that this isn't right saying like like she
loved him, but yeah, she had a few look's like
it's not your fault, Guy's not your fault, but it's
still not fair. I love it. I love it so much. Well,
(34:18):
this was wonderful as always, Eaves, thanks for joining us,
Thank you for having me. Where can the listeners find you?
So you can listen to me on any of the
various podcast listening platforms on the shows This Day in
History Class or the show I'm Popular. You can look
(34:39):
us up on the Facebook, the Instagram, the Twitter, all
of the things at You can just find us on
Unpopular if you look at the Unpopular podcast or the
same in History Class and that's it. I like a
(35:00):
good and with a dramatic at least dot dot dot Nope,
that's awesome. Well yeah, certainly go check that out for
for more stories like this, listeners um and also, if
you have any suggestions for some good female first you
can send them to us. Our email is Stuff Media,
(35:20):
mom Stuff at iHeart Media dot com. You can find
us on Instagram at stuff and I've Never Told You,
or on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast. Thanks to our
guest Eves, thanks to our super producer Andrew Howard, and
thanks to you for listening Stuff I've Never Told you
his protection of i heeart Radios How stuff Works. For
more podcast from i Heeart Radio is to be a
(35:41):
heart radio, app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
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