May 16, 2019 • 37 mins
Anney and Samantha do a check-in on feminism, and why people are still so afraid of the 'f' word.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey, this is Annie and this is Samantha, and welcome
to stuff. I've never told your protection of I Heart
Radio's house stuff work. So for this episode, which is
kind of your your first official episode as a full
post my debut, right yeah, official debut, your official now, y'all, Yeah,
(00:30):
I'm not, We're going to do kind of a check
in on feminism. Feminism, Yeah, what it means to be
a feminist today, the F word, the dreaded word. And
this was your suggestion, Samantha. Um, you kind of wanted
to when I first came on, I did bad feminist
because that's something I struggled with a lot, right, Um,
(00:52):
And we're going to talk about that a little bit.
But just feeling like I wasn't a good enough feminist,
right Um, So yeah, we'll check Yeah, I think it
was important. Um almost like let's just kind of start
the ball rolling again. Because a the definition changes, the
not necessarily the main definition, but the outlook of it
(01:12):
changes by generation by generation essentially. Um. And it's kind
of baffling how even in this day and age, I
have younger people, younger generations of my life in my
family who refused to be called feminists, even though they're
trying to work in fields that are pretty uh sexist
in general, and you're kind of like, wait, how do
(01:32):
you not want to be known as a feminist in
a culture that is going to use your sex against you?
And I think I was like, we need to come
back and have another revamping, another conversation again not necessarily
for our listeners. Most likely our listeners already understand and
they're on top of it, but there has become a
(01:53):
whole new label of like what is a wife feminist?
You know? And what is a feminist who is an ally? Like,
it's just a whole different labels now, and especially with
the fact that we have to be very very specific. Yeah,
and doing their research for this episode, I've found that
a lot of people are kind of confused about, um,
(02:13):
where we are where we are with feminism. So let's
get into it. And first, you know, I love dictionary definence.
Give me that dictionary definition, all right. Feminism is one
the advocacy of women's rights on the basis of the
equality of the sexes to the theory of the political, economic,
and social quality of the sexes. What I call it
Beyonce three the belief that men and women should have
(02:37):
equal rights and opportunities, and for the doctrine advocating social, political,
and all other rights of women equal to those of men.
I'm trying to figure out how any of those are
really offensive. I I don't think they are. I think
that and we're we're going to talk about this for sure,
But I think that a lot of people and data
(02:59):
bears this out say they want equality, but they don't
want to be called a feminist. It's such a bad word.
I mean, come on, But I will say I'm really
excited to note that. I had really hard conversation with
my parents. But my dad was like, feminism, you just
won't equal rights, right, And I was like, yeah, he goes, yeah,
I'm on board with that. And my parents are very conservative.
(03:19):
And when my said dad said that, I felt such triumph.
I was like, all right, dad, Yeah, he's an ally
whether he wants admitted or not. But he seemed to
understand pretty clearly this is a simplicity of it all. Yeah.
I similarly recently witnessed, um, my dad he's he's very liberal. Um,
(03:40):
but he got and I wouldn't say a fight, but
kind of a heated discussion with his Oh, I don't
even know how they related, but they related somehow about
because this I call him my my uncle. He was like,
you'll make any man lucky any when you just gotta
settle down. And my dad like, well, maybe she doesn't
(04:01):
want to settle I got to witness this whole thing,
like fight unfold about she doesn't need no man. Love that.
I love that. You're just an audience and all right,
there's my good and there's the bad. They're just order,
you know, Hagon is attagonists for me. Wonderful the tennis match.
It was funny because I've said before on the show
that for a long time my family was trying to
(04:25):
get me to settle down. And now they've sort of
you know, right, but anybody I think eventually this day
and age, and we'll talk about this later on in
our episodes because I'll be around now. Um, it's that
they've understood that relationships and the definition of relationships and
partnerships have changed. And even though it's not it doesn't
(04:45):
make my parents happy. I'll say it that way because
I am also single and late late thirties and don't
have children and don't desire to have children. But my
parents are like, but you're not in a relationship where
you have to deal with a back and forth with
a divorce or you know what I mean. And so
they're like, we're good. I'm gonna let you be now.
As we're five ten years ago, as we talked about
the first episode, how We Fail Yours, my mom was
(05:07):
scared that I was gonna die alone. She's now backed
off as well. Wonderful feminism. That's what I call femin
That's what progress allowed to be single in our families
without judgment. Progress. Um. And one thing I found an
article that I enjoyed from Forbes, but it was just
kind of like, ask yourself these questions if you're if
you don't want to call yourself a feminist. But um
(05:30):
the author of it, Um, she emphasized that it's equality,
not sameness, which is different. And going back to bad feminism,
I think a lot of people listening to this can
connect with that because we all have those things that
we like write that are misogynistic. Um. We listen to
(05:50):
music that we know is problematic. That's one of my
favorite examples from Roxane Gay wrote the book Bad Feminism. Um,
we use language and phrases we know we shouldn't. Yeah,
I'm I'm very very to you of that. I will
say sometimes I do feel like I'm owning those links,
like words or terms by using it. But I've had
that debate with people as well because I have a
potty mill. It's just an automatic kind of my rebellion
(06:11):
from like middle school. I didn't do anything else. I
didn't do drugs or anything, but I curse a lot
and I still do. Um. But yeah, it's a problem
back when you start thinking about it and you have
to watch yourself because you and I are, like being
in this podcast, hyper aware the fact that you need
to watch what you say and it's important and it
(06:31):
should it should hold you accountable. But to be under
that kind of microscope, I'm like, yeah, I mean a
bad feminist. Yeah, it might be. Yeah. That was one
of the first things when I was entering talks about
what you host. This was No, I don't know. I
was obviously scary. It can be quick aside. Um Lauren
over Savor, who's my co host over there, she was
(06:54):
telling me about this comic book where it's like a
matriarchal society and they say father figures instead of Oh,
I like that I think we should keep that, um,
and our our motto on this show is that we're
always learning and growing together. But one thing, there are
cases of like legit right bad feminism for example turfs
(07:15):
or trans exclusionary radical feminists. And that's a back and
forth that we've had to talk about because I know,
a prominent author made a statement and was very very
exclusionary and and you got why, you know what I mean,
We're all in this together at some point. Something else
I think we all struggle with is having a lot
of us have memories of not being a feminist or
(07:37):
not being a good feminist. Yeah, oh yeah, absolutely. I
was raised to think that feminism was, well, to put
it us bluntly, a sin, you know. And even a
small conversation that I've had recently that was a conversation
that feminism was the end of humanity and all the
goodness like yeah, and then it was a tool of
(07:57):
satan that was actually quoted to me recently. Um. And
it took me a bit of time to realize my
own personality alone was in conflict with the misogynistic idea
that men are the leaders. Um. My independence and my
ability to raise myself essentially and survive made me think,
why am I following you? Who are making decisions based
(08:20):
on emotions? And I had so many especially like in
UM college, I had so many guys who are being
put as leaders, and come on, we're in college. None
of us are really great leaders. We may be allowed
and have some good plans, but it came down to, wait,
you're basing yours on your emotion more so than my
I am, which I'm a little more rational in that
(08:41):
back and forth of the empathy and trying to be
and everybody's shoes, as well as the fact that I've
had more world experience and understanding, you know, different things
like that that I'm like, why do I Why am
I following you? I'm like, I don't trust you, and
not that I want people to follow me, but I
don't choose to follow you, you know what I mean.
And I think that's when it really hit him, like, oh,
(09:04):
you went away to a liberal and it wasn't actually
that liberal. The University of Georgia literal, well just college
and general college and general. Now my my actual major
social work is very liable for the most part, UM
but you know, yeah, literally the defining moments in college
was like, yeah, I'm a feminist. I'm sorry, all this
(09:26):
is what's going down too, because I don't need to
come here and try to find a mate, right um,
and define myself and all the other normal standards that
I was supposed to go through. In the early late
nineties or or the eighties, it was changing for me.
So yeah, that's when I was like, oh, but I
(09:49):
really was not originally a feminist. No, yeah, I wasn't either,
And I think I mean, I didn't really know. I
had the same associations that a lot of people have,
which is why they don't want to call themselves feminist,
is that it meant like you didn't shave and write
all those kinds of a ridiculous thing, right um. And
for a long time, feminism hasn't been intersectional. It's been
(10:11):
classist and ablest and white. Yeah, and I know it's
been previously discussed. When we look at the history of
feminist activism, we have to continue to credit many women
of color as being the pioneers of the fight. And
I think for a little while they were kind of
just erased, um as people who were making history and
making changes, and women like Short Gurner Truth OUTA. B. Wells,
(10:33):
Shirley Chisholm, the Lorias SUERGTA, and organizations like the Mississippi
Labor Union, which was created in eighteen sixty six by
black women, who was the first labor union in that state.
I mean they, yeah, they should be celebrated even more
and and be recognized for what they've done for feminism
in itself. I mean, at this time, I think slavery
(10:54):
was had finally ended and they came together and it
was all black women that they were um. Country women
would laundresses, said a thing. No, I don't think. I
don't think that's a thing you did laundry. But it
was a union together because they were not being paid well.
It worked and it was the beginning of other unions.
(11:14):
That was one in Atlanta as well, UM, and that
created some change. And it was made up of black women.
Let's just be very clear. They was made up of
black women who pioneered these things even before. And then
we have to talk about the whole back and forth
with a suffragette movement and how exclusive they were, um
even to the point that they were taking down black
men for having those before them, you know, and some
(11:36):
of the things that was said. It was just really
horrifying and exclusionary. Yeah. Yeah, And I have to say
something also horrifying is when I was researching this well,
I got really disheartened with all the top results because
I mean, like the first two were you know, feminism yea.
The rest of them are all like anti feminist, um
women against feminism, minimist what uh minimists. I still can't.
(12:02):
I'm like even make say it, like yeah, why y'all.
I love the parks and Ruck though episode I don't
know did you watch parts yeah, and the last like
couple of I think it's the last season and which
the menimist come and fight for um Ben because he's like,
let Ben speak and she's like I just let him
speak and he was like, okay, we just wrote our
(12:23):
bikes here. And it was just like a whole like
comical of like calm down, like you want to talk
about being enraged. This is one of those moments about
being a like a snowflake, as you can say, oh no, um,
we have some more for you listeners, but first we're
gonna pause for a quick break for a word from
our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you sponsor. So one
(12:56):
of the things, um, when I mentioned at the top,
there's seems to be some confusion, right. One of the
areas of confusion around feminism right now has to do
with what wave are in right, and just really quickly,
the use of waves to describe feminism is a little
misleading because it suggests that feminism is a monolith and
that these monolithts crust and fall at clear points, which
(13:18):
is not the case. It's also confusing because waves took
place at different times around the world, so sometimes in
different orders, like second wave feminism in America is equivalent
to third wave in Europe, things like that. Um, So,
according to a lot of folks, modern feminism is not
in the fourth wave, like there's no wave, it's just
intersectional feminism right now. Maybe it's a continuation of the
(13:41):
third wave. There are a couple of things that are
cornerstones of intersectional this third slash fourth wave of feminism, um, queerness,
body and sex, positivity and trans inclusivity. Right. And another
important aspect of it is that a lot of it
takes place on wine like hashtag me two, or or
(14:02):
it's conceived online like the Women's March. It's also largely
concerned with justice for women and other marginalized groups, and
some internet rolls tried to launch a fourth wave of
feminism that was pro sexualization, pro skinny, and anti fats. Really, yeah,
(14:23):
were they men these roles or was it assume? But yeah,
I mean I'm sure probably. I mean the big back
and forth about the pro skinny anti fat has been
a thing back and forth for a little while. Um,
the whole gap challenge and all of that. I know
that happened like three years ago, that right, Yeah, And
it was just a whole like back and forth and
it's really sad more than anything else. But uh, and
(14:47):
I know it was a lot of young teenage girls
that was coming on to that, So I just wondered
if it was actually created by men or not. Well,
I don't know. I think we did an episode on
that forever ago, and I said I would have totally
done that. I was not again bad, right, And it's
that has everything to do with once again self esteem
(15:07):
and self worth and as trickles down to so many things.
And I will say, like, as a bad feminist, I
remember being in middle school and saying to my family
that I would follow my husband or follow my father,
because I trust you. Why wouldn't I that's what women do,
and thinking about that that's so embarrassing. Yeah, it kind
of makes me choke a little bit, like I'm like, oh, um,
(15:29):
because that's what we I think it's loyalty and not
trusting ourselves in our own opinions. And don't get me wrong,
I have a really great relationship with my father. He's
a good man and I do trust him. But there's
a difference between talking things through and trusting and just
being like blindly following right. So Yeah. Another thing we
(15:51):
wanted to put in here is feminism around the world
because it does happen at different times, different places in
different ways. Um and like Western feminism largely forgets that
there are feminism. Wait, there's things outside of the US
that happened. What are you talking about? What? Um so?
For instance, after me too in the US, similar hashtags
(16:13):
went viral around the world in India, China, Spain, Italy, France, Canada, Pakistan, Philippines.
Um And then we wanted to briefly touch on femicide
and um. I think it's something important that we don't
talk about enough and people don't understand enough and when
I've brought this term ut people don't actually know what
I am talking about. So, according to the Stop Violence
(16:35):
dot Org, femicide the term originating in the nineteen seventies,
emerging in feminist scholarship to distinguish that gender motivated killings
of women rooted in discrimination and systematic violence from homicide generally,
and in about the early nineteen nineties kind of shifted
to the killing of women by men motivated by hate, contempt, pleasure,
(16:58):
or the assumption of ownership of women UM and then
it continued to expand to the misogynistic killing of women
by men, So it kind of gotten simplified into this
is what this is UM and the definition of femicide
has changed throughout the last fifty years since it was
first originated. UM and it's just demonstrate an attempt to
find a term to cover all gender related killings women.
(17:18):
And it's motivated by systematic discrimination against and devaluing of
women and girls. So that's the whole idea is they're
killing because you are female or identify as female, and
therefore you don't deserve a PC and d UM and
it recently it's been talked about in relations to deaths
due to partner violence. And and that's something that I'm
you know, you're not talked about. I'm very passionate about
(17:40):
and discussing about partner violence, domestic violence. And according to
the CDC in two thousand seventeen, more than fifty of
the female related deaths were related to partner violence, right,
and you hear about it more and more every day. UM.
And while these include the killing of women and girls
as a result of domestic violence, the holistic conception of
femicide UM includes crimes such as dowry related killings so
(18:03):
called honor killings which is still happening, female and fanticide
and increased maternal mortality resulting from HOSFORLD practices. And we
could link that to today's discussion about abortion laws and
abortion fans, because obviously this is a big concern of
what these laws are indicating and what could result is
more maternal deaths UM. And we already know people of color,
(18:27):
black women are more likely to die from the lack
of health care, from the lack of medical attention, So
this is really really problematic. And so the discussion of femicides,
are we enabling them more and more? And this is
again I think why I get really passionate when we
talk about feminism as a need and it should be
(18:47):
called feminism. It needs a label. It needs a title
because it's too big to just generalize all the feminism
because could be generalized in whatever. But the fact that
it it causes enough of a UM reaction, Yeah, that's
what we need. That's what we needs to happen. This
whatever waver intersectional feminism time period that we're in has
(19:12):
had some like cornerstone. Cornerstone is not the right word,
like key events, key events, everyday Sexism project, um, the
slut Walk Me two times up, Yes all women, um,
Emma Watson's Heat for She You in Campaign one Billion
Rising and the Woman's March. But it does have some problems. UM.
(19:35):
Call out culture is one thing, just because it can
make movement appear hostile, and it sometimes it is hostile,
and it can keep potential allies away or silent. And
this isn't to say something shouldn't be called out if
it's wrong, but it is something that I think. I mean,
I hardly ever tweet because I'm like people could read
(19:56):
this and it's such such a like I've head the
cat today, like oh, god right, I mean the whope
I mean and I know that was a conversation about
social media warrior is okay, um, and it's good that
we do call each other out, but it becomes so
hostile that it becomes uh feminist versus feminist or even
(20:17):
to the point that when people are called out and
hopefully they're done it in the correct manner, let's say, um,
that they get defensive and it becomes a whole well,
this is your fault, this is your fault, um, And
then you kind of look at these same fact as
it's writing. So writing seems impersonal anyway. So like if
I don't have ten happy face emojis or wink something,
(20:40):
it feels hostile, you know what I mean. But it's
that's the problem. It's like you don't doing a text
back and forth. There's so much leeway from miscommunication and misunderstanding.
One misquote is just can take you down completely and
again it should be something that is corrected. But there's
(21:01):
such like a pitchfork and fire type of I'm coming
after you mentality sometimes that it gets really problematic, um
and almost disheartening and dangerous to a certain extent. And
it's it's kind of a complex he wants thing actually,
but you know, there's just been examples of people the
wrong people getting called out and having your lives, so
(21:23):
it's just something to be I mean, actually that just
happened recently where an author who is a person of
color I believe, um called out a trans Transit employee
for eating and almost got her fired. So people went
after her and she lost a book deal. Like it
was I think over this weekend that happened, and it
gets intense. You got to be careful. Yeah. Um. Something
(21:43):
kind of related, it's slacktivism, since a lot of this
does take place online. Um, you know, slacktivists taking pictures
and like look at me volunteering right during this feminist thing. Um.
And that also kind of relates to the whole what
is that called commercialization of feminism, so companies being like, ah,
(22:08):
we can make money off of this, which is kind
of antithetical through feminism right there, right um. And also
technology that because it's dependent it's dependent on technology, it
impacts who can participate and exacerbates the classism and able
is m because who can afford the technology you can
(22:28):
who at the time who can use it? So that
that's a concern. And another criticism I have seen is
celebrities being at the forefront of a lot of the
public perception or understanding of feminism, which means mainstream feminism
is a fluent in white together. You and I talked
about this earlier about Alissa Milano that this weekend when
(22:51):
it was a sub strike, and I was like, what's happening.
And there's been a lot of controversy back and forth
on her and how it is ablest and it is
very much heteronormative ideas um with white people. It's like
white feminism, this is what we were talking about, and
how it's problematic and exclusion tory for many others. And
(23:13):
don't get me wrong, I mean you should definitely try.
For me, I'm a little confused, you should definitely try
to not have sex. I mean, like, if that's something
you're passionate about, I let's go for it. But I mean, huh,
but that's just me. That's just me. I'm gonna get
some conversations on that one. And this. I don't think
this will surprise anyone listening, but this whatever wave of
(23:36):
intersectional feminism that we're in, has inspired a lot of
back right, A lot and a lot of it online
again yes, um, so like gamer Gate is a greed
example in cells, we're gonna be talking about in cells,
um the m r A. They're fantastic things, things like that.
And this kind of brings us to a question, is
(23:58):
why our people afraid of feminism? Right? UK you Gove
survey found that thirty of women said yes when asked
if they were feminists, which is up slightly compared to
recent years. Five other countries pulled in Europe fared similarly.
Among men and women. Only eight percent identified as feminist
(24:18):
in Germany. Um. But the same study found that a
much higher number agreed that women and men weren't equal
and that they should be um, and that sexism is
still an issue one. I think that's harder to to deny,
like I think, and on a survey, if you see
men and women deserved to be equal, I think it's
easier to say yes, right right than just the one
(24:41):
term of feminism right um. And it does suggest that
it is the word itself that people are rejecting. In
the US, and two thirds of the twenty seven thousand
people surveyed said that they believed in gender equality Women
in the working class are less likely to identify as feminist,
and of women, surveys said it hasn't done much for
(25:04):
women of color, pointing to that class, this white thing
that we've been talking about. And honestly, I think the
rejection of the word feminism, the fear of it is
just been very successful marketing has Yeah, and we've all
heard it before. A feminist is an angry man hating
rab burning and that never even happened. Um ugly lesbian
(25:26):
so o hey, homophobia too, who doesn't wear makeup and
doesn't shave her legs? Again? How are these things bad?
I mean, like the man hating, I get, um, but anger,
conservaive purpose and you know what, I can go without
a braw Oh hell yeah, oh hell yeah. I'm taking
that thing off immediately, thrown across the way and just
letting loose. And you know what, I don't shave my legs.
(25:50):
I don't have to though I don't really grow out
of here, but like, nope, not gonna do it. Why,
I mean, it's up to you, that's the thing. Like
if you don't want to shave your legs, right, Like
I'm just like I don't want did about these are
bad things, especially for women. Yeah. Yeah, when it interviewed
many people and the survey said that they didn't believe
(26:10):
this stereotype, but they didn't want to be associated with
the stereotype, and they often also do a Seinfeld. I
do not think there's anything wrong with that when it
comes to the association with lesbianism. And we've talked about
this before, but another part of this fear around the
word feminism, um is our societal fear and punishment of
(26:32):
ambitious women, which is kind of in general, the whole
misogynistic talk in tone, within offices, within corporations, um, the
whole idea of a woman being threatening if she's successful
or if she's a sort of UM. Again, I don't
understand why that's a bad thing either. Yeah, Um, I
(26:54):
think it's a bad thing for certain people. Are they
perceive it to be because they see it as a
fear of changing the status quo, men losing power, changing traditions,
destroying the nuclear family in the very fabric of our society.
I read that multiple so successful, um, and then I
(27:15):
I also think for for a lot of people, there
is that fear that I talked about, the fear of
not being good enough right to be to call yourself
a feminist, or um guilt about things that you you
like and you know you shouldn't and you feel you
feel like if you say you're a feminist, that means
you have to get rid of those things, or maybe
(27:36):
even this whole wave monolith narrative. People who don't agree
with the feminists they know on certain points may think
that means they aren't feminists, right, but yeah, we were not.
We don't all agree on like every single issue so
hard and cut. Nothing else in life is like that.
But yet this has to be like you better be
one way or the other. You're just not. You're excluded completely.
(27:56):
Like I know, we've definitely had some um of our
listeners right in talking about how they enjoy this or
they enjoy um tradition like this and you know, the wedding,
wedding and performances and changing your last name and all
that has been a big like back and forth and
big conversation of what it represents to being tradition to
you know, all of those things, and no one's really wrong.
And I think that's part of the thing that we
(28:17):
also need to talk about as feminism in itself. If
a woman enjoys something and just thinking it's a part
of her right as long as it's not like and
I guess it's maybe too generic to say, but it's not.
It does not, um prohibit anyone else's rights and happiness.
Why is that wrong? That makes sense? I mean, And
(28:38):
again this is a very generalized statement, and I know
people are gonna be like, what, But for those who
enjoy being at home with their children, is there right?
You know what I mean? For those who want to
be at work and allow their children to be at
a preschool, is there right? Um? For those who don't
want children, is there right? And for those who are
trying to have children and are doing different avenues of it,
(28:58):
why isn't that okay? Now, there's also the back back
and forth conversation about and I'm just obviously picking in
on the women and children and the lifestyles as of
you know this this time and age. But that's the
problem is that there there's people who are so cutting
vizes like if you're doing this, then you're doing it wrong,
and that's that's problematic in itself. Yeah, yeah, there's we
(29:21):
have a lot of conversations to be had yes, but
for now we have a little bit more for you.
But first we're gonna pause for one more quick break
for word from our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you sponsor.
(29:45):
So we wanted to end with the question of why
we still need feminism because I've seen, and I'm sure
a lot of people have seen, well, men and women
are equal now, So I don't know why we will
do this. Well it's not true. But yeah, if we
still aren't equal, we don't make the same pay the
(30:06):
same work. We still tell girls that their value is
in their looks and their sexual desirability two men. Um,
and we do that all kinds of ways through our media,
through our clothes, the toys we market to girls that
for a long time have evolved around motherhood and domestic life. Um,
we can't walk around the streets expecting the same level
of safety or comfort or even just yeah, just being
(30:27):
left alone, right, I every time I leave the same
damn standards of the fact that what you wear m
it causes whatever reactions from men, and it's your fault.
I mean, we talked about in the schools and the
dress codes is absurd and it goes after girls in
general because they're distracting to boys. Sexism hurts everybody. I
(30:49):
just I just doesn't make sense. But then yeah, and
that goes back to the fact that it also prohibits
the men metal gender to not be able to show emotion,
to not be able to like dolls, to not be
able to stay at home, you know, like things like that.
It does hurt everyone, It does. Yeah, absolutely, we don't
have the same opportunities. And despite being fifty of the population,
(31:10):
we don't see that reflected in our top positions are
in our media entertainment. We can't find out this to
go to space weird strange. Um, the fact that me
too exists at all. Um, the fact that we still
have to justify why it has to exist, right, Both
of those things right. Um. We don't have control over
our own body when it comes to law and policies,
(31:30):
still having to fight for it. Yep. Um. We don't
have accessible child care, our maternity leave in this country,
and we're still expected to do the care and the
cleaning even though we have jobs. I mean, we could
go on and on. There's still a lot to tackle.
I mean, there's a lot to tackle, but there's a
lot to um. Again, kind of how we talked about
in the trauma. We have to change people's way of thinking. Yeah,
(31:52):
you know what I mean, because there's enough of us
who Even for myself, some of the way I think,
I'm like, oh what am I? What am I doing?
You know? Because in mind, in my own nature once again, um,
I'm a caretaker and whether it's me being a social
worker and caring for others or again, I'll talk about
my apartment complex with my small group of neighbors. I'm
the mom in that group and I have to make
(32:13):
sure everybody's okay, everybody's fed. Um. I also struggle with
the fact that I sacrificed my own self for that
because I feel like that's what I'm supposed to do
as a caretaker as a woman. You know, those things,
And that's the weird mindset to come through. But that's
what I was raised as as well. Like my mother
would not eat until my dad had all his stuff
and she was stopped in the middle of her mills.
(32:35):
If he needed a second plate, then she would go
get it for him. My favorite Christmas. Yeah, it's so weird,
and I remember getting really angry now, but it wasn't
necessarily that he expected it. It was just done right
because it was just yeah, yeah, that was were the
nuclear family. Yeah. In my episode on bad feminism, my well,
(32:56):
it's kind of my episode episode, it wasn't mine. I
sat in there that I used to make cookies for
the office, and then I started working on the show,
and I was questioning me everything, like what does this
mean about me? I just like baking became this thing
that I was examining, say about me? What do people
think when I bring? It's hard? I mean and even
to the point now, Um, when I'm with people, my
(33:18):
friends and such, I like paying for people. I want
them to come out with me. So I bribed them
to come out with me. Um. And I know I've
had some issues with men who are like, no, you
don't pay that I do that, and I'm like, no,
it's not a big deal. I want to pay because
I invited you, you know, stuff like that, and then
that goes back and forth the whole day. Who pays
who doesn't. But it is a whole different mindset. You
(33:40):
really start rethinking everything. And I love some hip hop
you and I know this, but like a lot of
the hip hop is very obviously, very very misogynistic and
girl against girl, like like I love them to give
an love her, but she really does compete with other
women a lot of the times. And you're kind of like,
what why You're are all awesome? You and cardiab are
(34:01):
great be friends. I can't we all be friends? Why
can't we all be friends? And yeah, and just once
again trying to unpack the fact that feminism it's not
a dirty word, you know what I mean? Like it
just just seeing people's reaction to that word alone is
still shocking to me. And you would think you would hope,
(34:22):
but you're right, like, Um, the conservative radio people who
like people who are afraid of women essentially have done
a good job and trashing this word as much as possible. UM.
And I for myself, I have a I come from
a small conservative town, and a lot of my friends, UM,
(34:42):
who have very conservative parents but have become liberal as
they've kind of gotten older. Um, and they still hesitate
to call themselves feminists, even though I'm like, no, you are.
But they're like afraid of the word. They're afraid of
how people will view them when they themselves. Still remember
in college having to discussion with a friend of mine
and she was like, I just don't want your thought.
(35:03):
I don't want to I don't want people any think.
I'm like that, you know whatever. And I was like,
what are you talking about? You know, you can't come
you couldn't have come to college without feminism. You couldn't
be here alone, you know. Like I was trying to
explain all the minute things. I'm like, you understand you're
able to wear whatever you want because of feminism, Like
do you understand you really vote because of feminism? And
it's just kind of they were just like, well, I mean,
(35:24):
you know, you know what I mean. I'm like, no,
I really, I really don't explain it to me. Um. Yeah,
So that's about where we are with our checking. A
lot of generalizations in there with added subjects and such. Yeah,
I mean, it's that's the thing is, it's not a
monolist um. So we would love to hear from from
(35:45):
you listeners what what your brand of feminism is and
what it means to you, And if you'd like to
email us you can. We have a new email, but
if you send it to the old email, it will
still still come to us. One of our listeners on
instagrams this is not as catchy as you think. I
(36:05):
never said it was catchy. It is stuff Media, mom
Stuff at i heeart media dot com. You know what
we can make it catchy, dude, there's some kind of
two never mind, move on. That was That was some
cold rejection right there. Um. You can also find us
on Instagram at Stuff I've Never Told You and on
Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always to our
(36:29):
super producer Andrew Howard, and thanks to you for listening.
Stephone Never Told You is a production of I Heart Radios.
How Stuff Works. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio,
visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Hey, this is Annie and this is Samantha, and welcome
to stuff. I've never told your protection of I Heart
Radio's house stuff work. So for this episode, which is
kind of your your first official episode as a full
post my debut, right yeah, official debut, your official now, y'all, Yeah,
(00:30):
I'm not, We're going to do kind of a check
in on feminism. Feminism, Yeah, what it means to be
a feminist today, the F word, the dreaded word. And
this was your suggestion, Samantha. Um, you kind of wanted
to when I first came on, I did bad feminist
because that's something I struggled with a lot, right, Um,
(00:52):
And we're going to talk about that a little bit.
But just feeling like I wasn't a good enough feminist,
right Um, So yeah, we'll check Yeah, I think it
was important. Um almost like let's just kind of start
the ball rolling again. Because a the definition changes, the
not necessarily the main definition, but the outlook of it
(01:12):
changes by generation by generation essentially. Um. And it's kind
of baffling how even in this day and age, I
have younger people, younger generations of my life in my
family who refused to be called feminists, even though they're
trying to work in fields that are pretty uh sexist
in general, and you're kind of like, wait, how do
(01:32):
you not want to be known as a feminist in
a culture that is going to use your sex against you?
And I think I was like, we need to come
back and have another revamping, another conversation again not necessarily
for our listeners. Most likely our listeners already understand and
they're on top of it, but there has become a
(01:53):
whole new label of like what is a wife feminist?
You know? And what is a feminist who is an ally? Like,
it's just a whole different labels now, and especially with
the fact that we have to be very very specific. Yeah,
and doing their research for this episode, I've found that
a lot of people are kind of confused about, um,
(02:13):
where we are where we are with feminism. So let's
get into it. And first, you know, I love dictionary definence.
Give me that dictionary definition, all right. Feminism is one
the advocacy of women's rights on the basis of the
equality of the sexes to the theory of the political, economic,
and social quality of the sexes. What I call it
Beyonce three the belief that men and women should have
(02:37):
equal rights and opportunities, and for the doctrine advocating social, political,
and all other rights of women equal to those of men.
I'm trying to figure out how any of those are
really offensive. I I don't think they are. I think
that and we're we're going to talk about this for sure,
But I think that a lot of people and data
(02:59):
bears this out say they want equality, but they don't
want to be called a feminist. It's such a bad word.
I mean, come on, But I will say I'm really
excited to note that. I had really hard conversation with
my parents. But my dad was like, feminism, you just
won't equal rights, right, And I was like, yeah, he goes, yeah,
I'm on board with that. And my parents are very conservative.
(03:19):
And when my said dad said that, I felt such triumph.
I was like, all right, dad, Yeah, he's an ally
whether he wants admitted or not. But he seemed to
understand pretty clearly this is a simplicity of it all. Yeah.
I similarly recently witnessed, um, my dad he's he's very liberal. Um,
(03:40):
but he got and I wouldn't say a fight, but
kind of a heated discussion with his Oh, I don't
even know how they related, but they related somehow about
because this I call him my my uncle. He was like,
you'll make any man lucky any when you just gotta
settle down. And my dad like, well, maybe she doesn't
(04:01):
want to settle I got to witness this whole thing,
like fight unfold about she doesn't need no man. Love that.
I love that. You're just an audience and all right,
there's my good and there's the bad. They're just order,
you know, Hagon is attagonists for me. Wonderful the tennis match.
It was funny because I've said before on the show
that for a long time my family was trying to
(04:25):
get me to settle down. And now they've sort of
you know, right, but anybody I think eventually this day
and age, and we'll talk about this later on in
our episodes because I'll be around now. Um, it's that
they've understood that relationships and the definition of relationships and
partnerships have changed. And even though it's not it doesn't
(04:45):
make my parents happy. I'll say it that way because
I am also single and late late thirties and don't
have children and don't desire to have children. But my
parents are like, but you're not in a relationship where
you have to deal with a back and forth with
a divorce or you know what I mean. And so
they're like, we're good. I'm gonna let you be now.
As we're five ten years ago, as we talked about
the first episode, how We Fail Yours, my mom was
(05:07):
scared that I was gonna die alone. She's now backed
off as well. Wonderful feminism. That's what I call femin
That's what progress allowed to be single in our families
without judgment. Progress. Um. And one thing I found an
article that I enjoyed from Forbes, but it was just
kind of like, ask yourself these questions if you're if
you don't want to call yourself a feminist. But um
(05:30):
the author of it, Um, she emphasized that it's equality,
not sameness, which is different. And going back to bad feminism,
I think a lot of people listening to this can
connect with that because we all have those things that
we like write that are misogynistic. Um. We listen to
(05:50):
music that we know is problematic. That's one of my
favorite examples from Roxane Gay wrote the book Bad Feminism. Um,
we use language and phrases we know we shouldn't. Yeah,
I'm I'm very very to you of that. I will
say sometimes I do feel like I'm owning those links,
like words or terms by using it. But I've had
that debate with people as well because I have a
potty mill. It's just an automatic kind of my rebellion
(06:11):
from like middle school. I didn't do anything else. I
didn't do drugs or anything, but I curse a lot
and I still do. Um. But yeah, it's a problem
back when you start thinking about it and you have
to watch yourself because you and I are, like being
in this podcast, hyper aware the fact that you need
to watch what you say and it's important and it
(06:31):
should it should hold you accountable. But to be under
that kind of microscope, I'm like, yeah, I mean a
bad feminist. Yeah, it might be. Yeah. That was one
of the first things when I was entering talks about
what you host. This was No, I don't know. I
was obviously scary. It can be quick aside. Um Lauren
over Savor, who's my co host over there, she was
(06:54):
telling me about this comic book where it's like a
matriarchal society and they say father figures instead of Oh,
I like that I think we should keep that, um,
and our our motto on this show is that we're
always learning and growing together. But one thing, there are
cases of like legit right bad feminism for example turfs
(07:15):
or trans exclusionary radical feminists. And that's a back and
forth that we've had to talk about because I know,
a prominent author made a statement and was very very
exclusionary and and you got why, you know what I mean,
We're all in this together at some point. Something else
I think we all struggle with is having a lot
of us have memories of not being a feminist or
(07:37):
not being a good feminist. Yeah, oh yeah, absolutely. I
was raised to think that feminism was, well, to put
it us bluntly, a sin, you know. And even a
small conversation that I've had recently that was a conversation
that feminism was the end of humanity and all the
goodness like yeah, and then it was a tool of
(07:57):
satan that was actually quoted to me recently. Um. And
it took me a bit of time to realize my
own personality alone was in conflict with the misogynistic idea
that men are the leaders. Um. My independence and my
ability to raise myself essentially and survive made me think,
why am I following you? Who are making decisions based
(08:20):
on emotions? And I had so many especially like in
UM college, I had so many guys who are being
put as leaders, and come on, we're in college. None
of us are really great leaders. We may be allowed
and have some good plans, but it came down to, wait,
you're basing yours on your emotion more so than my
I am, which I'm a little more rational in that
(08:41):
back and forth of the empathy and trying to be
and everybody's shoes, as well as the fact that I've
had more world experience and understanding, you know, different things
like that that I'm like, why do I Why am
I following you? I'm like, I don't trust you, and
not that I want people to follow me, but I
don't choose to follow you, you know what I mean.
And I think that's when it really hit him, like, oh,
(09:04):
you went away to a liberal and it wasn't actually
that liberal. The University of Georgia literal, well just college
and general college and general. Now my my actual major
social work is very liable for the most part, UM
but you know, yeah, literally the defining moments in college
was like, yeah, I'm a feminist. I'm sorry, all this
(09:26):
is what's going down too, because I don't need to
come here and try to find a mate, right um,
and define myself and all the other normal standards that
I was supposed to go through. In the early late
nineties or or the eighties, it was changing for me.
So yeah, that's when I was like, oh, but I
(09:49):
really was not originally a feminist. No, yeah, I wasn't either,
And I think I mean, I didn't really know. I
had the same associations that a lot of people have,
which is why they don't want to call themselves feminist,
is that it meant like you didn't shave and write
all those kinds of a ridiculous thing, right um. And
for a long time, feminism hasn't been intersectional. It's been
(10:11):
classist and ablest and white. Yeah, and I know it's
been previously discussed. When we look at the history of
feminist activism, we have to continue to credit many women
of color as being the pioneers of the fight. And
I think for a little while they were kind of
just erased, um as people who were making history and
making changes, and women like Short Gurner Truth OUTA. B. Wells,
(10:33):
Shirley Chisholm, the Lorias SUERGTA, and organizations like the Mississippi
Labor Union, which was created in eighteen sixty six by
black women, who was the first labor union in that state.
I mean they, yeah, they should be celebrated even more
and and be recognized for what they've done for feminism
in itself. I mean, at this time, I think slavery
(10:54):
was had finally ended and they came together and it
was all black women that they were um. Country women
would laundresses, said a thing. No, I don't think. I
don't think that's a thing you did laundry. But it
was a union together because they were not being paid well.
It worked and it was the beginning of other unions.
(11:14):
That was one in Atlanta as well, UM, and that
created some change. And it was made up of black women.
Let's just be very clear. They was made up of
black women who pioneered these things even before. And then
we have to talk about the whole back and forth
with a suffragette movement and how exclusive they were, um
even to the point that they were taking down black
men for having those before them, you know, and some
(11:36):
of the things that was said. It was just really
horrifying and exclusionary. Yeah. Yeah, And I have to say
something also horrifying is when I was researching this well,
I got really disheartened with all the top results because
I mean, like the first two were you know, feminism yea.
The rest of them are all like anti feminist, um
women against feminism, minimist what uh minimists. I still can't.
(12:02):
I'm like even make say it, like yeah, why y'all.
I love the parks and Ruck though episode I don't
know did you watch parts yeah, and the last like
couple of I think it's the last season and which
the menimist come and fight for um Ben because he's like,
let Ben speak and she's like I just let him
speak and he was like, okay, we just wrote our
(12:23):
bikes here. And it was just like a whole like
comical of like calm down, like you want to talk
about being enraged. This is one of those moments about
being a like a snowflake, as you can say, oh no, um,
we have some more for you listeners, but first we're
gonna pause for a quick break for a word from
our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you sponsor. So one
(12:56):
of the things, um, when I mentioned at the top,
there's seems to be some confusion, right. One of the
areas of confusion around feminism right now has to do
with what wave are in right, and just really quickly,
the use of waves to describe feminism is a little
misleading because it suggests that feminism is a monolith and
that these monolithts crust and fall at clear points, which
(13:18):
is not the case. It's also confusing because waves took
place at different times around the world, so sometimes in
different orders, like second wave feminism in America is equivalent
to third wave in Europe, things like that. Um, So,
according to a lot of folks, modern feminism is not
in the fourth wave, like there's no wave, it's just
intersectional feminism right now. Maybe it's a continuation of the
(13:41):
third wave. There are a couple of things that are
cornerstones of intersectional this third slash fourth wave of feminism, um, queerness,
body and sex, positivity and trans inclusivity. Right. And another
important aspect of it is that a lot of it
takes place on wine like hashtag me two, or or
(14:02):
it's conceived online like the Women's March. It's also largely
concerned with justice for women and other marginalized groups, and
some internet rolls tried to launch a fourth wave of
feminism that was pro sexualization, pro skinny, and anti fats. Really, yeah,
(14:23):
were they men these roles or was it assume? But yeah,
I mean I'm sure probably. I mean the big back
and forth about the pro skinny anti fat has been
a thing back and forth for a little while. Um,
the whole gap challenge and all of that. I know
that happened like three years ago, that right, Yeah, And
it was just a whole like back and forth and
it's really sad more than anything else. But uh, and
(14:47):
I know it was a lot of young teenage girls
that was coming on to that, So I just wondered
if it was actually created by men or not. Well,
I don't know. I think we did an episode on
that forever ago, and I said I would have totally
done that. I was not again bad, right, And it's
that has everything to do with once again self esteem
(15:07):
and self worth and as trickles down to so many things.
And I will say, like, as a bad feminist, I
remember being in middle school and saying to my family
that I would follow my husband or follow my father,
because I trust you. Why wouldn't I that's what women do,
and thinking about that that's so embarrassing. Yeah, it kind
of makes me choke a little bit, like I'm like, oh, um,
(15:29):
because that's what we I think it's loyalty and not
trusting ourselves in our own opinions. And don't get me wrong,
I have a really great relationship with my father. He's
a good man and I do trust him. But there's
a difference between talking things through and trusting and just
being like blindly following right. So Yeah. Another thing we
(15:51):
wanted to put in here is feminism around the world
because it does happen at different times, different places in
different ways. Um and like Western feminism largely forgets that
there are feminism. Wait, there's things outside of the US
that happened. What are you talking about? What? Um so?
For instance, after me too in the US, similar hashtags
(16:13):
went viral around the world in India, China, Spain, Italy, France, Canada, Pakistan, Philippines.
Um And then we wanted to briefly touch on femicide
and um. I think it's something important that we don't
talk about enough and people don't understand enough and when
I've brought this term ut people don't actually know what
I am talking about. So, according to the Stop Violence
(16:35):
dot Org, femicide the term originating in the nineteen seventies,
emerging in feminist scholarship to distinguish that gender motivated killings
of women rooted in discrimination and systematic violence from homicide generally,
and in about the early nineteen nineties kind of shifted
to the killing of women by men motivated by hate, contempt, pleasure,
(16:58):
or the assumption of ownership of women UM and then
it continued to expand to the misogynistic killing of women
by men, So it kind of gotten simplified into this
is what this is UM and the definition of femicide
has changed throughout the last fifty years since it was
first originated. UM and it's just demonstrate an attempt to
find a term to cover all gender related killings women.
(17:18):
And it's motivated by systematic discrimination against and devaluing of
women and girls. So that's the whole idea is they're
killing because you are female or identify as female, and
therefore you don't deserve a PC and d UM and
it recently it's been talked about in relations to deaths
due to partner violence. And and that's something that I'm
you know, you're not talked about. I'm very passionate about
(17:40):
and discussing about partner violence, domestic violence. And according to
the CDC in two thousand seventeen, more than fifty of
the female related deaths were related to partner violence, right,
and you hear about it more and more every day. UM.
And while these include the killing of women and girls
as a result of domestic violence, the holistic conception of
femicide UM includes crimes such as dowry related killings so
(18:03):
called honor killings which is still happening, female and fanticide
and increased maternal mortality resulting from HOSFORLD practices. And we
could link that to today's discussion about abortion laws and
abortion fans, because obviously this is a big concern of
what these laws are indicating and what could result is
more maternal deaths UM. And we already know people of color,
(18:27):
black women are more likely to die from the lack
of health care, from the lack of medical attention, So
this is really really problematic. And so the discussion of femicides,
are we enabling them more and more? And this is
again I think why I get really passionate when we
talk about feminism as a need and it should be
(18:47):
called feminism. It needs a label. It needs a title
because it's too big to just generalize all the feminism
because could be generalized in whatever. But the fact that
it it causes enough of a UM reaction, Yeah, that's
what we need. That's what we needs to happen. This
whatever waver intersectional feminism time period that we're in has
(19:12):
had some like cornerstone. Cornerstone is not the right word,
like key events, key events, everyday Sexism project, um, the
slut Walk Me two times up, Yes all women, um,
Emma Watson's Heat for She You in Campaign one Billion
Rising and the Woman's March. But it does have some problems. UM.
(19:35):
Call out culture is one thing, just because it can
make movement appear hostile, and it sometimes it is hostile,
and it can keep potential allies away or silent. And
this isn't to say something shouldn't be called out if
it's wrong, but it is something that I think. I mean,
I hardly ever tweet because I'm like people could read
(19:56):
this and it's such such a like I've head the
cat today, like oh, god right, I mean the whope
I mean and I know that was a conversation about
social media warrior is okay, um, and it's good that
we do call each other out, but it becomes so
hostile that it becomes uh feminist versus feminist or even
(20:17):
to the point that when people are called out and
hopefully they're done it in the correct manner, let's say, um,
that they get defensive and it becomes a whole well,
this is your fault, this is your fault, um, And
then you kind of look at these same fact as
it's writing. So writing seems impersonal anyway. So like if
I don't have ten happy face emojis or wink something,
(20:40):
it feels hostile, you know what I mean. But it's
that's the problem. It's like you don't doing a text
back and forth. There's so much leeway from miscommunication and misunderstanding.
One misquote is just can take you down completely and
again it should be something that is corrected. But there's
(21:01):
such like a pitchfork and fire type of I'm coming
after you mentality sometimes that it gets really problematic, um
and almost disheartening and dangerous to a certain extent. And
it's it's kind of a complex he wants thing actually,
but you know, there's just been examples of people the
wrong people getting called out and having your lives, so
(21:23):
it's just something to be I mean, actually that just
happened recently where an author who is a person of
color I believe, um called out a trans Transit employee
for eating and almost got her fired. So people went
after her and she lost a book deal. Like it
was I think over this weekend that happened, and it
gets intense. You got to be careful. Yeah. Um. Something
(21:43):
kind of related, it's slacktivism, since a lot of this
does take place online. Um, you know, slacktivists taking pictures
and like look at me volunteering right during this feminist thing. Um.
And that also kind of relates to the whole what
is that called commercialization of feminism, so companies being like, ah,
(22:08):
we can make money off of this, which is kind
of antithetical through feminism right there, right um. And also
technology that because it's dependent it's dependent on technology, it
impacts who can participate and exacerbates the classism and able
is m because who can afford the technology you can
(22:28):
who at the time who can use it? So that
that's a concern. And another criticism I have seen is
celebrities being at the forefront of a lot of the
public perception or understanding of feminism, which means mainstream feminism
is a fluent in white together. You and I talked
about this earlier about Alissa Milano that this weekend when
(22:51):
it was a sub strike, and I was like, what's happening.
And there's been a lot of controversy back and forth
on her and how it is ablest and it is
very much heteronormative ideas um with white people. It's like
white feminism, this is what we were talking about, and
how it's problematic and exclusion tory for many others. And
(23:13):
don't get me wrong, I mean you should definitely try.
For me, I'm a little confused, you should definitely try
to not have sex. I mean, like, if that's something
you're passionate about, I let's go for it. But I mean, huh,
but that's just me. That's just me. I'm gonna get
some conversations on that one. And this. I don't think
this will surprise anyone listening, but this whatever wave of
(23:36):
intersectional feminism that we're in, has inspired a lot of
back right, A lot and a lot of it online
again yes, um, so like gamer Gate is a greed
example in cells, we're gonna be talking about in cells,
um the m r A. They're fantastic things, things like that.
And this kind of brings us to a question, is
(23:58):
why our people afraid of feminism? Right? UK you Gove
survey found that thirty of women said yes when asked
if they were feminists, which is up slightly compared to
recent years. Five other countries pulled in Europe fared similarly.
Among men and women. Only eight percent identified as feminist
(24:18):
in Germany. Um. But the same study found that a
much higher number agreed that women and men weren't equal
and that they should be um, and that sexism is
still an issue one. I think that's harder to to deny,
like I think, and on a survey, if you see
men and women deserved to be equal, I think it's
easier to say yes, right right than just the one
(24:41):
term of feminism right um. And it does suggest that
it is the word itself that people are rejecting. In
the US, and two thirds of the twenty seven thousand
people surveyed said that they believed in gender equality Women
in the working class are less likely to identify as feminist,
and of women, surveys said it hasn't done much for
(25:04):
women of color, pointing to that class, this white thing
that we've been talking about. And honestly, I think the
rejection of the word feminism, the fear of it is
just been very successful marketing has Yeah, and we've all
heard it before. A feminist is an angry man hating
rab burning and that never even happened. Um ugly lesbian
(25:26):
so o hey, homophobia too, who doesn't wear makeup and
doesn't shave her legs? Again? How are these things bad?
I mean, like the man hating, I get, um, but anger,
conservaive purpose and you know what, I can go without
a braw Oh hell yeah, oh hell yeah. I'm taking
that thing off immediately, thrown across the way and just
letting loose. And you know what, I don't shave my legs.
(25:50):
I don't have to though I don't really grow out
of here, but like, nope, not gonna do it. Why,
I mean, it's up to you, that's the thing. Like
if you don't want to shave your legs, right, Like
I'm just like I don't want did about these are
bad things, especially for women. Yeah. Yeah, when it interviewed
many people and the survey said that they didn't believe
(26:10):
this stereotype, but they didn't want to be associated with
the stereotype, and they often also do a Seinfeld. I
do not think there's anything wrong with that when it
comes to the association with lesbianism. And we've talked about
this before, but another part of this fear around the
word feminism, um is our societal fear and punishment of
(26:32):
ambitious women, which is kind of in general, the whole
misogynistic talk in tone, within offices, within corporations, um, the
whole idea of a woman being threatening if she's successful
or if she's a sort of UM. Again, I don't
understand why that's a bad thing either. Yeah, Um, I
(26:54):
think it's a bad thing for certain people. Are they
perceive it to be because they see it as a
fear of changing the status quo, men losing power, changing traditions,
destroying the nuclear family in the very fabric of our society.
I read that multiple so successful, um, and then I
(27:15):
I also think for for a lot of people, there
is that fear that I talked about, the fear of
not being good enough right to be to call yourself
a feminist, or um guilt about things that you you
like and you know you shouldn't and you feel you
feel like if you say you're a feminist, that means
you have to get rid of those things, or maybe
(27:36):
even this whole wave monolith narrative. People who don't agree
with the feminists they know on certain points may think
that means they aren't feminists, right, but yeah, we were not.
We don't all agree on like every single issue so
hard and cut. Nothing else in life is like that.
But yet this has to be like you better be
one way or the other. You're just not. You're excluded completely.
(27:56):
Like I know, we've definitely had some um of our
listeners right in talking about how they enjoy this or
they enjoy um tradition like this and you know, the wedding,
wedding and performances and changing your last name and all
that has been a big like back and forth and
big conversation of what it represents to being tradition to
you know, all of those things, and no one's really wrong.
And I think that's part of the thing that we
(28:17):
also need to talk about as feminism in itself. If
a woman enjoys something and just thinking it's a part
of her right as long as it's not like and
I guess it's maybe too generic to say, but it's not.
It does not, um prohibit anyone else's rights and happiness.
Why is that wrong? That makes sense? I mean, And
(28:38):
again this is a very generalized statement, and I know
people are gonna be like, what, But for those who
enjoy being at home with their children, is there right?
You know what I mean? For those who want to
be at work and allow their children to be at
a preschool, is there right? Um? For those who don't
want children, is there right? And for those who are
trying to have children and are doing different avenues of it,
(28:58):
why isn't that okay? Now, there's also the back back
and forth conversation about and I'm just obviously picking in
on the women and children and the lifestyles as of
you know this this time and age. But that's the
problem is that there there's people who are so cutting
vizes like if you're doing this, then you're doing it wrong,
and that's that's problematic in itself. Yeah, yeah, there's we
(29:21):
have a lot of conversations to be had yes, but
for now we have a little bit more for you.
But first we're gonna pause for one more quick break
for word from our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you sponsor.
(29:45):
So we wanted to end with the question of why
we still need feminism because I've seen, and I'm sure
a lot of people have seen, well, men and women
are equal now, So I don't know why we will
do this. Well it's not true. But yeah, if we
still aren't equal, we don't make the same pay the
(30:06):
same work. We still tell girls that their value is
in their looks and their sexual desirability two men. Um,
and we do that all kinds of ways through our media,
through our clothes, the toys we market to girls that
for a long time have evolved around motherhood and domestic life. Um,
we can't walk around the streets expecting the same level
of safety or comfort or even just yeah, just being
(30:27):
left alone, right, I every time I leave the same
damn standards of the fact that what you wear m
it causes whatever reactions from men, and it's your fault.
I mean, we talked about in the schools and the
dress codes is absurd and it goes after girls in
general because they're distracting to boys. Sexism hurts everybody. I
(30:49):
just I just doesn't make sense. But then yeah, and
that goes back to the fact that it also prohibits
the men metal gender to not be able to show emotion,
to not be able to like dolls, to not be
able to stay at home, you know, like things like that.
It does hurt everyone, It does. Yeah, absolutely, we don't
have the same opportunities. And despite being fifty of the population,
(31:10):
we don't see that reflected in our top positions are
in our media entertainment. We can't find out this to
go to space weird strange. Um, the fact that me
too exists at all. Um, the fact that we still
have to justify why it has to exist, right, Both
of those things right. Um. We don't have control over
our own body when it comes to law and policies,
(31:30):
still having to fight for it. Yep. Um. We don't
have accessible child care, our maternity leave in this country,
and we're still expected to do the care and the
cleaning even though we have jobs. I mean, we could
go on and on. There's still a lot to tackle.
I mean, there's a lot to tackle, but there's a
lot to um. Again, kind of how we talked about
in the trauma. We have to change people's way of thinking. Yeah,
(31:52):
you know what I mean, because there's enough of us
who Even for myself, some of the way I think,
I'm like, oh what am I? What am I doing?
You know? Because in mind, in my own nature once again, um,
I'm a caretaker and whether it's me being a social
worker and caring for others or again, I'll talk about
my apartment complex with my small group of neighbors. I'm
the mom in that group and I have to make
(32:13):
sure everybody's okay, everybody's fed. Um. I also struggle with
the fact that I sacrificed my own self for that
because I feel like that's what I'm supposed to do
as a caretaker as a woman. You know, those things,
And that's the weird mindset to come through. But that's
what I was raised as as well. Like my mother
would not eat until my dad had all his stuff
and she was stopped in the middle of her mills.
(32:35):
If he needed a second plate, then she would go
get it for him. My favorite Christmas. Yeah, it's so weird,
and I remember getting really angry now, but it wasn't
necessarily that he expected it. It was just done right
because it was just yeah, yeah, that was were the
nuclear family. Yeah. In my episode on bad feminism, my well,
(32:56):
it's kind of my episode episode, it wasn't mine. I
sat in there that I used to make cookies for
the office, and then I started working on the show,
and I was questioning me everything, like what does this
mean about me? I just like baking became this thing
that I was examining, say about me? What do people
think when I bring? It's hard? I mean and even
to the point now, Um, when I'm with people, my
(33:18):
friends and such, I like paying for people. I want
them to come out with me. So I bribed them
to come out with me. Um. And I know I've
had some issues with men who are like, no, you
don't pay that I do that, and I'm like, no,
it's not a big deal. I want to pay because
I invited you, you know, stuff like that, and then
that goes back and forth the whole day. Who pays
who doesn't. But it is a whole different mindset. You
(33:40):
really start rethinking everything. And I love some hip hop
you and I know this, but like a lot of
the hip hop is very obviously, very very misogynistic and
girl against girl, like like I love them to give
an love her, but she really does compete with other
women a lot of the times. And you're kind of like,
what why You're are all awesome? You and cardiab are
(34:01):
great be friends. I can't we all be friends? Why
can't we all be friends? And yeah, and just once
again trying to unpack the fact that feminism it's not
a dirty word, you know what I mean? Like it
just just seeing people's reaction to that word alone is
still shocking to me. And you would think you would hope,
(34:22):
but you're right, like, Um, the conservative radio people who
like people who are afraid of women essentially have done
a good job and trashing this word as much as possible. UM.
And I for myself, I have a I come from
a small conservative town, and a lot of my friends, UM,
(34:42):
who have very conservative parents but have become liberal as
they've kind of gotten older. Um, and they still hesitate
to call themselves feminists, even though I'm like, no, you are.
But they're like afraid of the word. They're afraid of
how people will view them when they themselves. Still remember
in college having to discussion with a friend of mine
and she was like, I just don't want your thought.
(35:03):
I don't want to I don't want people any think.
I'm like that, you know whatever. And I was like,
what are you talking about? You know, you can't come
you couldn't have come to college without feminism. You couldn't
be here alone, you know. Like I was trying to
explain all the minute things. I'm like, you understand you're
able to wear whatever you want because of feminism, Like
do you understand you really vote because of feminism? And
it's just kind of they were just like, well, I mean,
(35:24):
you know, you know what I mean. I'm like, no,
I really, I really don't explain it to me. Um. Yeah,
So that's about where we are with our checking. A
lot of generalizations in there with added subjects and such. Yeah,
I mean, it's that's the thing is, it's not a
monolist um. So we would love to hear from from
(35:45):
you listeners what what your brand of feminism is and
what it means to you, And if you'd like to
email us you can. We have a new email, but
if you send it to the old email, it will
still still come to us. One of our listeners on
instagrams this is not as catchy as you think. I
(36:05):
never said it was catchy. It is stuff Media, mom
Stuff at i heeart media dot com. You know what
we can make it catchy, dude, there's some kind of
two never mind, move on. That was That was some
cold rejection right there. Um. You can also find us
on Instagram at Stuff I've Never Told You and on
Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always to our
(36:29):
super producer Andrew Howard, and thanks to you for listening.
Stephone Never Told You is a production of I Heart Radios.
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