Feminism of Running

Anney and guest co-host Allison Loudermilk swap personal running stories and talk about the feminism of running.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
I think every time I say never getting and then
like the next day, I start thinking, you know what,
race sounds cool? Hey, this is Annie, and you're listening
to stuff I've never told you. And today I am

(00:24):
joined by guest co host Alison louder Milk. Hello, else,
and thanks so much for joining us. Hey Annie, thanks
for having me. I'm delighted to be here. Yes, and
I'm delighted to have you. And you are going to
talk about something that both of us enjoy, big fans
of can talk probably a lot about, and indeed we have,

(00:45):
Indeed we have, and that is running and the feminism
of running. Yep. Yeah, So I I kind of feel
like I'm a new kid to the block when it
comes to running, which isn't totally true, but I feel
like you have a lot more experience in a longer
running career than I do. Well, I'm older than you, Annie,
so there's that. And I'll say I was just very

(01:07):
shy for a long time about my body running. But anyway,
could you tell us a little bit about your running career? Sure? Yeah,
I'd love to. So. Growing up, I was kind of
a team sports kind of girl. I played soccer, I
played tennis, that kind of a thing. And then in college,
I I didn't do any of those things that I
would sometimes go to the gym after I was, you know,
just feeling like I need to get off my lazy butt.

(01:29):
And my senior year of college, it was fall and
I had a friend and he was crazy about running,
and we were really close and he used to drag
me out like every day after class and I would
protest um, but eventually I would get my butt down there.
I remember the route perfectly, like most runners do. It
was um seared on my brain. I would say it

(01:49):
was like down a hundred sixteen street and down West
End app and then all the way to the boat house.
I went to school in New York City, so it's
probably a three mile run. And he we would you
this run, sometimes with other people, but almost always the
two of us for sure. And he would not run
with me per se Annie, but he would run a
couple of paces in front of me and he would

(02:11):
just snicker at me like it drove me crazy, but
it also worked because I would try to catch up.
And so this guy, this gentleman, he he kind of
cemented my love of running back then. I mean I
did it like all the weeks of my false smester,
and then it just carried over and sometimes, like on
a particularly joyous day, I will thank the universe and

(02:31):
I will thank like Law. Shout out to you Law
for college senior year me become a runner. For a minute,
I thought you were talking about like the law of
the US like constitutions. That was a strange nickname. Thanks Law.
But um, today I run for myself. It's just become
probably like for you and for our listeners, it's become

(02:52):
part of who I am. I mean, I think about
it all the time, Like you're saying, I hear music
in my head and certain beats just make me want
to run. Do you have that? Oh yeah? And I
have a particular song by Muse that I don't know why,
one Madness. Oh yeah. I think I was running the
Electric Run and it's kind of this like Neon Light

(03:12):
Race and it came on and I don't know why,
but I just took off. And every time I hear
that song, I think of that. For a while, I
ran without music, and now I look back onto that thinking, wow,
yeah there. I think there are arguments to be made
for both. I I would agree. So I've basically run
them all now. I mean I've done five kids half marathon's.
I tried my first triathlon this past September, and I

(03:33):
loved it. It was so fun. Yes, it was awesome.
I totally recommend it to anybody who's been thinking about it.
It was a sprint. Yeah, I've never done a triathlon,
but I'm I'm interested. I might pick your brain about
that later. Um. For me, I think I've talked a
little bit about some of this on the show. I'm

(03:53):
really privileged to run. I have the time and the money,
and I can afford a decent pair of shoes. My
legs are strong. A doctor one told me I had
a really strong quads and a runner's heartbeat, and I
wanted to get that like, I wanted him to write
that out and get it framed, because I've come a
really long way. I I was out of shape as
a child. I was very self conscious about my body

(04:14):
and about the comments male classmates would make when I
ran by them, and it sort of discouraged me from
pursuing anything like that, which makes me really angry now
because I was really competitive and I loved that stuff.
I loved it but they they sort of scared me away.
And also, I you know, when you're in that kind

(04:37):
of awkward phase with your body, it was easy for
them to sort of convince me, no, you should probably
not do this. It does it makes me sad that
I didn't participate in that kind of stuff. But fast
forward to college. I started I started running to impress
a guy. Um. It was really nerdy actually looking back,

(05:00):
because they, I don't know if you've ever heard of
this thing some college campuses do. It's called Humans Versus Zombies.
I don't think so. I mean, I've heard of zombie runs,
but that was my first race. This is a zombie run,
but this is uh, it's sort of a campus wide
game where everyone starts out as human and you're wearing
this bandana around your arm that indicates that you're human.

(05:22):
And um. On the first day, there's an original zombie
and he can pretend to be human and he'll like
tap you on the children and say, hey, I'm the
original zombie. Your zombie now, and then you have to
put your bandana around your head to indicate your zombie.
You can throw marshmallows zombies to stun them. Anyway involves
a lot of running, and there's this guy I really

(05:44):
wanted to impress that played it as well. And at
the time I could only run maybe ten ten to
thirty seconds before getting winded. So I started training. I
trained really hard, uphill sprints. I got pretty fast. Did
not impress him at all. I bet if we contacted him.
I think he lives in New York. Now he would
not know my name. I don't know. And you make

(06:06):
an impression. Thank you, Alison, thank you. I'm not so sure,
but I appreciate it. And then after that it I
started doing it to maintain a certain like body shape,
and it got all tied up into an eating disorder.
So I turned a healthy thing into an unhealthy thing.
I've mentioned it before. I call it my cop coping

(06:28):
mechanism controm um. But it is something that I love
and something that I feel makes me. It makes me
feel strong, it makes me feel confident when I go upstairs.
I can't tell you how I feel. I feel like
I've conquered the world, which is kind of sad but
also kind of wonderful. Um. I never thought ever that

(06:51):
I'd run a marathon, and um I did. And sometimes
I think it's easy to dismiss how hard you work
to do those kinds of things, especially when you're in
the running community. I don't know. Oh absolutely yeah, Like
running twenty six miles is a lot, and I think
I try to remind myself of that sometimes, especially when I, UM,

(07:14):
I start to feel like I'm not that great of
a runner. I'm like, well, you have done these things.
I don't think. I think you should celebrate accomplishments where
you can. I've done runs where I've seen things that
are so beautiful, Like there's this one place that I
run every morning. UM and if you're lucky and there's
a sunrise happening at the right time, and the way

(07:37):
the wall curves, if there's no people there, it looks
like you're running forever into the sunrise and it's so beautiful. UM.
And I also have a lot of hilarious stories about
races I've ended up in that I was not supposed
to end up in, Like one UM was a kid's
race and all the children were dressed as ill and

(08:02):
I crossed the finish line with them. There's definitely pictures
of me in those race photos. I was just running
my regular route and then once I got stuck in
a dog parade, which is it was objectively hilarious. I
didn't think it was funny at the time, but looking back,
that was really that's why are you getting them in

(08:23):
the way of my miles? I got some miles and
it was towards the end of my marathon training, so
it was like miles eighteen and then, yeah, I was
not I was not there for there's hundreds of dogs, Alison,
hundreds of dogs and I'm trying to it was hot anyway,

(08:44):
I'm sure it was very funny for the people watching.
But um, I also love I don't know if you've
experienced this. Um, I love how your thoughts can wonder
on long runs and they for me, I try to
give myself a problem to solve which is possible to solve,
like post modern economic theory, but then I end up
on something completely different, like some memory that you've totally forgotten.

(09:08):
It's it's really it's fascinating what the body, what the
things that your mind on earth when you're just in
this sort of running mindset zone. I will say in
my race this past an day to the half and
I noticed that, I mean, it was pretty focused on
achieving like a particular time, I just set myself a

(09:30):
goal and I hit it. Yeah, and that's another way
I want to run all races. But this particular race
was the way I went out and I noticed I
thought about running like the entire time, and I never
do that. You know, it's just this motion that your
body takes for granted a lot of the time. But
I thought of all of the pieces and like the things, Okay,
you know, make sure you're doing this, and you're doing that,

(09:50):
and you know, equal counts in and equal counts out
with your breath and all of these things. And it
was it was actually very conscious running, which I appreciated,
which I think trail runners can appreciate too. Yeah. Yeah,
oh yeah, you've got to pay more attention when you're
trail running. And um, the times I've done my best

(10:10):
times have been times where I was focusing on the
running part of it, the running part of the run. Yeah,
I'm not like post modern economically, but the running part
of it. I usually try to give myself a person
like I'm going to pass you, and I'm going to
pass you. I've heard that that's not the healthiest way
to run, but it is good for keeping giving yourself
a goal to pass um. I think they call it

(10:33):
a going fishing, right, Yeah, I'll do that and then say, yeah,
I think that's what I called it. And I don't
know if I knew that reil some people in yeah. Yeah,
and then every now and then there's somebody you just
can't catch, and it's it's a real bummer. And I
will say here for anyone who's who's listening, is like,
I'm not a runner. I think you can any sort

(10:56):
of activity that you enjoy a lot. I would say
that you will probably be able to relate to a
lot of this. But the history of running, especially officially
in races um for women, does there is a lot
of feminism involved. I would say absolutely. Yeah. So if

(11:19):
you if you look at the case of Katherine Switzer,
the first woman to run the Boston Marathon with an
official number, Here's a woman who had trained, who was qualified,
but was not allowed to participate because she was a
woman entering. She wasn't allowed to enter anyway, and she
she was shoved and yelled at, and she still persisted
and she finished the race. In her words, she turned

(11:42):
her fear and humiliation at being confronted like that into anger.
And then when her serious boyfriend and uh one of
he was also one of her running crew, blamed her
for ruining his shot at the Olympics by getting him
in trouble and told her that she ran to slowly
anyway and took off at a faster pace made her
feel like, in her words, just a girl. She kept

(12:05):
going and she passed him by far. She did. That's
sort of like feminism in a nutshell. It's definitely a
marathon and not a sprint. It's a good reminder, yeah,
because marathons are hard. They are hard. Uh. I I
was surprised at how eventually you reach a point where
you think I could just keep running. But I did

(12:27):
get to like, I think mile twenty is what it's
what they say my I was ready to be done.
I was just ready to be done. Um. Have you
ever had that thought during the middle of various like Hey,
I should just call Uber they can come pick me up.
I definitely have had that thought. Yes, I have a
friend who she always jokes with me why would I

(12:48):
run when I could just walk? And I always joke
back with her, why would you walk when you could
just run? She could already be where you're trying to get.
But I remember during the marathon there's a point where
I had all these questions, why are you doing this? Why?
We're going to talk about that later. Actually the reason
why women run, the reasons why. Um And it does

(13:12):
feel kind of like a feminist act because when I'm running,
at least a lot of times, I can't help but
think about all of those running tips that I've mentioned
before on the show for women about how not to
be murdered as compared to tips for men which are
fed a protein bar at this time, like tips to
improve performance as opposed to tips to survive your being

(13:34):
in a public space. Um And, it just it feels like,
I don't want to say rebellious, it's just there's something
about it of being unsupervised in a public space, which
should be totally fine, but hearing those tips it reminds
you that for a lot of women, it still isn't.
Um and that's that's not the way it should be.

(13:56):
And I think by the more the more women out
there participating in this activity, I'm hoping that that is changing. Yeah. Um,
I mean I think we were all reminded this summer
with Molly Tibbets and when she she was the eighteen
year old runner out of um Iowa and this happened
this past summer. She went out for a run in

(14:18):
her neighborhood. She died. She was murdered when she was running.
I think she was being harrassed first, and then you know,
she threatened to call the police and the guy killed
her and there's a big search for her. And UM,
you know, it just reminded all of the female runners
out there that this is the thing. You know, it's
in and you know, you think, well, it can happen

(14:38):
to me, but it can. Um. And so it just
makes you think. In two thousand sixteen, there were three
female runners who were murdered. I think it was in
August that same summer, and so runners rolled in the
wake of that. They conducted this survey in two thousand
seventeen and they found that women had been harrassed while running.

(15:00):
Not surprising. I'm actually surprised it's not higher, and the
number rose to percent for women under thirty. Um for men,
about four percent of men reported the same. Yeah. Um,
that's definitely some big disparity. It's a huge disparity. Yeah,
And I just those tips. Again, I think about them

(15:21):
all the time because I know two of them off
the top of my head. One was never wear a ponytail, which,
of course you're gonna want to wear a pony tail
because you don't want your hair to get in your way.
And then the other was never like have headphones, which,
again for a lot of those, the music is a
good motivator. You can set the beats per minute to
make sure that you're hitting the face that you want. Um,

(15:45):
just these basic things that should be totally fine for
female runners that we're being told or not fine. I'd
be curious to hear what other listeners do when they
go out for a ren if they heed some of these,
or they have their own methods of dealing with situations,
or you know, I mean, I cheat the system. I
usually wear one headphone kicked in. I'm like, oh, I

(16:09):
got an ear out, Sure that'll work. On the flip side,
I don't wear my glasses, so I'm not going to
be able to see jack Huh. Okay, I definitely I
keep both of mine, and I have one ear that's
really bad, so I guess it's pointless. But I did
have a woman recently a woman like get in my

(16:29):
face and start yelling at me, um, telling me that
I should not be running with headphones, that it was
not safe, and didn't I realize how one safe it
wasn't It kind of surprised me yelling what was the situation?
I was just running, Um, it wasn't dark yet, but
it was getting dark, and she just sort of wandered

(16:53):
into my my path and I thought, um, you know,
she'll she'll move. I'm running, I can go around her.
But she was loud and persistent, and yeah, she just
told me it wasn't safe to be running with I
phones in. I don't know, I don't know. And we
did talk about sexual harassment females female runners off in

(17:16):
face in our update on the history of women running races.
And it's strange because running is a powerful thing physically
and mentally, but at the same time there is this
vulnerability for women and non binary folks, this kind of
spectrum in your back. It reminds me of I was
telling you how a while ago I read that the
number one nightmare women have I think it's tied with falling,

(17:40):
is being chased and like running from something, um, which
is just interesting and when I was thinking about this.
I forgot about the scene and the Handmad's tale the
show when in a flashback it shows June slash Offread
running with her friend and all of the people glowering
at them, like you're not supposed to be here, it's
not something you should be doing. Yeah. Running is powerful. Yeah,

(18:05):
in theory it offers people runners this freedom to move
about in society. I mean, because we're just relying on
the power of our bodies. It's a beautiful thing, except
that freedom is still limited for you know, non binary
and female runners, especially at four in the morning, right,
you know, when you need to say, squeeze in nine

(18:27):
miles before your work to stay on track for your
race training, and you don't feel comfortable running outside, so
maybe you go to one of those like twenty four
hour gyms, or maybe you can run outside but you
don't feel comfortable doing so. I've definitely done some dumb
stuff in the name of trying to squeeze some miles in,
have you Oh yeah, so yes, so yes. I also

(18:48):
I once it's kind of infamous in my friend group.
But the night Donald Trump the election, I always thought
this sounds so weird. I was pretty sure he was
gonna win, and it was looking more and more that way.
And it's like four am. I like yeah, And I
was like crying, I'd had beer to drink. I was tipsy, coping,

(19:13):
mechanism gone wrong, I'm telling you. But yes, yes, I
have done foolish things. Is the point of that. But
here's the thing. I mean, why can't the dumb thing
be attacking a runner? It should be and it is,
but yeah, societally it's still like blaming, victim blaming. And

(19:33):
another thing that's part of this is the way women
dress and the sexualization of the female body, something that
comes up all the time in her episodes. And a
listener recently sent us this message about her high school
track and field team and how they've gotten in trouble
for running in sports ros and I wanted to read

(19:56):
it. It It made me so angry. One of the ways
the gram ran at my school was to have a
voluntary practices during summertime she was on a track and
field I think our coach would set up a morning
and evening practice in order to make it easier as
easier for us to show up to one of them.
During my sophomore year, it was extremely hot summer. I
remember temperatures getting to the mid nineties, lots of humidity,

(20:17):
and even passing out a few times during my workout
because of the heat. Basically, if I didn't run in
the morning, I would get dizzy are dehydrated during the
afternoon run. To help stay a little cooler on our
longer runs, which sometimes got up to around ten miles,
the boys would take off their shirts and the girls
team would run in spandex and sports bras. I wasn't
super comfortable when we were running in little clothing, but

(20:38):
we were always in a group of four about four plus.
I was so overheated that it felt nice not to
have baggy shirts dripping with sweat. As expected, we were
a cat called and heckled by mail drivers passing by.
Our head coach, who was a male, even started running
with us. I would drive along the route in his
car to make sure we were okay. I never felt

(20:58):
unsafe while the team was running. One day, when we
were getting ready to leave for our main run, our
coach informed us that the town council had received complaints
from various individuals in our neighborhood that it was inappropriate
for high schools girls sports team to be running around
the town half naked. The town council went out of
their way to contact the school, making it a rule

(21:19):
that the girls cross country team couldn't run in sports
bras was their complaint filed against the boys team. No,
we were all so frustrated and outrage that people were
making such a big deal about our running attire yet
didn't care that our male counterparts were legit topless running
through town. As a small way to rebel, our team
captains started the habit of going on our runs with

(21:41):
our T shirts on, and then as soon as we
were out of sight of our coach, would hide our
shirts in a bush to get back before ending the run.
What bothered me the most about the complaints was that
if I was running by myself into sports bra people
would not have been able to file a complaint. However,
because we were a group of girls trained together for
a sport unofficially, I'm i'd add people were outraged. The

(22:03):
school and talent frame the rule of no running in
just sports braws as a way to keep us safe
and keep the town classy. Just a typical way to
tell us it is all our fault, blame actions men
took on women based off the way a woman is
just and showing an unfair standards set for women athletes.
At the time, our girls team was county champions, while
the boys team almost never had enough bodies to man
an entire team. Yeah. So, even if running feels to

(22:27):
me like a feminist act because it offers me and
you listeners and Annie and everyone who has ever run
a mile, it offers the ultimate control over our bodies,
there's still these limitations on the active women running, be
it on how we dress or when and where we
put in our miles. Yeah, but despite all of that,
there are more women running than ever and we're gonna

(22:50):
get into that and reasons why. But first we're going
to pause for a quick break for word from our sponsor,
and we're back, Thank you sponsor. So yeah, despite all
of this nonsense, women kind of have to deal with

(23:12):
around running. More women than ever are running races. For
a long time, even after women were actually allowed to race,
it was seen as more of a male space. As
of seventeen though, fifty seven percent of the seventeen million
American race finishers were women. That is a fantastic stat

(23:34):
That is the sea change of women in the running
world got started in the year after Oprah ran the
Marine Corps Marathon. Andy Burfoot, who worked at Runners World,
got a call from Race for the Cure, which was
a Newish road race series targeted towards women with the
primary goal of raising money for research around breast cancer research.

(23:56):
One of their races in the Midwest had ten thousand
female run was registered. In Burfitt's words, quote, we were
Runners World and we were completely unaware that there was
this tidal wave. At the time, men accounted for sixty
eight percent of race finishers, but women finishers overtook male
finishers by ten Annie. Yes, Can I ask you a

(24:21):
very serious question? Yes, when was your first marathon? Was
a post Oprah amaseming I was posted. I didn't know
she ran one until doing this research. Actually, oh yeah,
I do too. Definitely opened up I think the idea
that more people could run a marathon. I think it

(24:43):
made it more accessible, or at least it seemed more
accessible to people anyway. I will say that in this office,
a lot of people run. I feel like a lot
of people run and shout out to you. Will Pearson, Yes,
part time genius um And when I first arted. It
was thanks to you in part, Allison, and uh it

(25:04):
made it feel more accessible to me having people in
my orbit that ran these races. And I had this
goal of running a half. I never thought i'd run
a full. But I ran my first full two years
ago and it was the Walt Disney World Marathon and

(25:25):
I had just injured. I had um runners knee. That
was your first. I didn't realize that was your first.
That was my first full marathon. Yeah, and I I'm
really angry about it. Actually, it's just the the luck
of the drops, how things work out. But I had

(25:45):
just been on this really long cruise, and training for
a marathon on a long cruise not easy. And we
so the cruise docked in Florida and we went from
there to run the race and there was a cold snap,
which no one was prepared for. The race. Officials certainly
weren't prepared for it. It was eleven degrees I think

(26:09):
in Florida. It was really cold. And my gummies I
use gummies for energy, they were frozen. At mile six
when I went to eat them, they were frozen. Soide
so it was just like, uh, not the ideal. Sometimes
it doesn't all come together. Oh definitely, definitely. How about you, Allison?
When was your first Mine was Marine Corps and it

(26:31):
was October two thousand one. I was in my twenties,
and I just I did it because I honestly, I
don't know. I think I just did it because I
wanted to be something I had done, right, you know,
just one of those things like I ran a marathon,
yeah exactly, and then I got hooked as most first

(26:52):
to I crossed that finish line, and I immediately started thinking,
I wonder what my next race is going to be.
It's so funny you say that, because I feel like
I'm not that big of a race runner, but every
time I run a race at the end, I'm pretty
sure I'm not exaggerating. I think every time I say

(27:12):
never getting And then like the next day, I started thinking,
you know what, race sounds cool. It's just how quickly
the mind shifts, and it's like, you know, I think
it might be cool if you did this one. As
we record this, um, I'm about to go do um

(27:33):
wine and dine at Disney, which is a half So
it sounds like such a good one. Fingers cost Yeah,
it's really fun. It's really fun to get to run
through all of the parks and at the end there's
all the wine and in dining you could wish for
Holly fry of stuff you missed in history class. Is
definitely the one who got me. She's the one that

(27:55):
really got me to run a half. And then she
is like continued to be like, you know which one
you should do? This other Disney one that I yeah,
Holly is amazing. She's done so many of those races.
I'm such a dork, I remember that. I know. It's
so funny. I feel like we're talking about like your
first kiss or something like my first race was this,

(28:17):
and by the way, we would love to hear stories
of your first races. Yes, oh yes, um. And if
we if we take a step back and we look
at why women for so long we're discouraged from running.
One of the main reasons given to women was health,

(28:37):
it's it's not good for you to run long races
or racist at all, and it was sort of like
a benign sexism thing of you know, we're trying to
protect you. And as a matter of fact, as of disrecording,
one of the top auto phil search results on Google
when I was researching this was running bad for female
sex organs. So that was one of the things that

(29:03):
for a long time was used to keep women out
of races. And if you did run a raise, somebody
would have to run behind you because they would try
to they would have to catch your uterus as it
fell out. Yes, that's what they thought, and I mean
we probably it probably goes about saying, but generally this
is not the case, not the uterus falling out there.
But just like it's not bad for female sex organs

(29:29):
in general. I'm not a doctor, but just play one
on TV, just play one in podcast. Most studies looking
into runners how to improve the health of running, all
the study participants until recently have been men or mostly men.

(29:49):
So a lot of things I've read, and I've been
reading up a lot about this lately because of runners,
knee and all that stuff, advise you to take any
running advice that involves a study be with a grain
of salt if you're a woman or non binary, just
because our bodies are different and there isn't that much
science as of yet looking into looking into that. And

(30:12):
as we've discussed before, some science does show that women
are better endurance renders and that this might even improve
after giving birth. And since I've never done that thing,
I thought maybe you could speak to your experience, Alison,
I have. I have done that thing. So I actually
ran Chicago while I was pregnant with my first child. Wow,

(30:33):
how well, Annie, that wasn't the plan exactly. I had
this original plan to really go for it at Chicago.
I was, of course, like seeing if I could get
a Boston qualifier. I hope to you somedays still don't
we all? Um except GDS. Before Chicago, I hadn't gotten
my period, and my female trading buddy and very good

(30:55):
friend was like, maybe you should just, you know, see
if you're pregnant. Yeah, you know, And sure enough I was, Uh,
and I did Chicago anyway. I just I mean, I
really just tried to read it in a little bit
that was more than eleven years ago, and the little
bean in my belly it turned out to be my
eleven year old daughter, and uh, I hope a future runner.

(31:16):
I like to joke with her that she's already read
a marathon. Oh man, that's lucky, she's already got one
under her boat. Yeah. I never really considered not doing Chicago,
even after I found out I was pregnant. Um, but
I do remember that there is a lack of solid
evidence on whether reading marathon was okay, how much mileage
was okay, that kind of thing. So I just winged

(31:37):
it and most of us have done that, and I
tried to listen to my body. Um, and in fact
it's gotten. The field has sort of advanced a little
bit in that knowledge. And running well pregnant, assuming there
are no complicating factors, like you know, gestational diabetes, running
well pregnant is perfectly fine, assuming you can find a
bathroom on your route. And the American College of Obstetricians

(32:01):
and kind of coologists, they recommend twenty to thirty minutes
a day. I saw estimates of up to an hour.
I think the important thing again, it's just to listen
to your body, not to do like crazy pushing yourself
and um, get out there. This is my favorite, Annie,
I love this so so much. There are these stories
of women, and I guess that runners who run every
day are called streakers. Correct me if I'm wrong, Annie,

(32:22):
or or listeners. Um. So they have these running streaks
that they are unwilling to break, so they will run
actually on the day of their delivery, and they have
been known to run in the hospital doing laps. WHOA, yeah,
that's some that's some dedication right there. Yeah, that's that's
a lot. Yes. Yes. For many moms, running is a

(32:44):
way to just stay sane and relieve stress. Um. It's
helps to connect with a part of their like pre
parenting form ourselves, I mean, and it also helps to
be an active, positive example for their kids. It's this active,
like taking control over their bodies again and post pregnancy
body changes. The first rund can be like so freaking powerful.

(33:07):
I mean, I remember it sent the running fire just
like coursing through my veins again. You know. It was
this powerful reminder of my former self and it felt great,
especially since it was post major surgery, the first I've
ever had, I mean, it was C section, So it
was just it was such a good way to connect
to the person I was and the person I would be,
and to like, you know, make those two selves meet. Um.

(33:30):
And then of course once you have a child, you
can go out for a walk or run with your
knee baby and stay sane because it's really it's really
nice to get out of the house when you have
a new baby. So for those who can afford them,
this is where the jogging stroller can become a real lifeline. Um.
But again kind of looking at how racist frame thinks.
A lot of racist don't allow for jogging strollers. And

(33:51):
sometimes you even have to pay extra or register your kid.
I've never heard that paid to register your kid. Yeah,
like the person in the stroller. Also shout out to
the biceps of the women pushing those jocking strollers. They
are amazing. Yeah, every time someone passes me with a
jogging stroller, I'm super annoyed, But then I'm very impressed.

(34:13):
It's it's a mix of emotions. Have you have you
ever dropped out of a race? No? Have you? I
haven't either. Um, when we did the update on running,
we were talking about how the Boston Marathon this year
was so terrible, the conditions were so terrible, and how
more men than women dropped out, and how that has

(34:35):
to do with a couple of things they think. But
one is adjusting, like goals. And I guess the men
competitors that dropped out said they dropped out because they
weren't going to meet a certain time that they had
given themselves. But women were more able to adjust that
time based on the poor conditions. I have never dropped out,

(34:57):
but I did break my ankle running a trail race
at mile six. It was a half marathon, and I
finished the race and I worked for two days after
that until I could no longer fit my foot in
my shoe, and I was like, well, this might be
a problem. When my mom came in and she did

(35:18):
the best, like gas and she said getting a car.
And I still pay the price for that. I can't sleep.
I can only sleep in one position. My friends call
it dead bird because I have to hang my foot
off the bed. Um. So no shame at all if
you've ever had to drop out of a race. Um, definitely,

(35:41):
Like what's going back to what you were saying listening
to your body? Um, I mean, I'm really bad about
and this is probably definitely why I have runners knee
and plantar fasciitis. I'm really bad about doing that, and
I'm bad about even like you can start walking, you
can stop and stretch. I'm bad about all of those things.
I am too, but they are good things to do,

(36:02):
especially if you want to keep running and you want
to push your performance. It feels like a step back,
but it's not. It's part of your training. You're absolutely right.
We all want to run for as long as we
possibly can. I mean, I want to be eighty and
like having those sweatpants and be like, shuffle it along.
I love, love, love those people like love them. Um.
And so taking the longer view and being smart is

(36:25):
absolutely the thing to do. And it's a good reminder. Yeah.
And this brings us to races and sexism and races
because there are a lot of minor things. Um, while
they seem minor, I don't know in races that do
reinforce this idea that the default racer is male and

(36:48):
because of that part of that that women don't belong.
And I do think that the perception is that the
male winner of a race is the real winner. And
like the men's marathon at the l PIX is the
real marathon. It correct me if I'm wrong, but I
think that's what closes the the Olympics is the male marathon.
The female marathon happens at the midpoint. I think. So, okay,

(37:11):
I'm gonna go with it. It seems it seems logical,
it seems believable. Um, if we look at race directors
the makeup of race runnerscuse female now, but that isn't
reflected in the leadership. The i a a F, which
is the International Track and Fields governing body, has an
election just for getting one woman on their council. Most
major marathons are directed by men. And this brings us

(37:36):
to another point that's near and dear to my heart.
The shirts the unice sex shirt, because let's be real,
unisex shirts aren't unisex, and a lot of races I've
run you can pay more to get a woman's cut shirt.
But the message again is that, yeah, we didn't plan
this race with you in mind, and not to hammer

(37:57):
this home, but yeah, to hammer this home. More women
are running races now than men. It would be different
if I don't know, only like four women were running, okay,
but it's probably over half of the racers are are women.
I like to think of myself as a rare unicorn,
but female runners are not rare unicorns. In fact, no

(38:20):
alas las well. I guess it's for the best, but
it would be nice to think of yourself as a
ray unicorn. I the for the Atlanta Peachtree Road Race,
the the metal is a shirt. You can only get it.
You're supposed to only get it once you cross that
finish line. I gotta love that. I do too, but

(38:42):
it's it's you're in no sex and the sleeves always
look so dumb and box on me that I cut
them off. And you would be surprised how many people
see me running around the city and how many women
stop me and say, I never thought of doing that.
That's so smart, because we all they don't fit right,

(39:02):
they don't fit, and it's it's frustrating because it is
the trophy and I hate to think of people not
wearing it because it doesn't look good. Yeah, there's raining shirts.
I mean, I'm like the size of a twelve year old. Uh,
and it's like huge, They're so big, yes, I mean,
and like like I have one fair in New York
City Marathon, Like I will never give that thing away,

(39:23):
but I swear to god it goes down to my
ankles so big. Yeah. Yeah, that's another thing too. Um
And something else that we wanted to talk about is
female only races. There are female only races, um. From
what I can tell, most of them do allow male runners.

(39:45):
But San Francisco. There's a San Francisco Nike one. I think, yes, yeah,
there is. Have you done that one? I have not
done that one, but I think it's a much smaller population.
But I think, um, for most of those female only races,
some men are allowed to run. I know some of them,
no men are allowed to run. And it's this whole

(40:06):
idea is sort of similar to what we talked about
in our gym timidation episode. Um, they can be safe
spaces for bringing people in or self conscious or maybe
maybe like a good foot in to to start running
other races, but they also are very stereotypical. Um like
at that maybe you cross the finish line, A lot
of them offer like chocolate and champagne. The first half

(40:29):
marathon I ever ran was the Disney Princess Half, which
is majority women, and it did give me a kind
of a strange feeling like it's all pink branded. When
you cross, like glitter goes up and you like do
a wand over your shoulder and your princess. I guess
it was fun. This whole episode was to get you

(40:52):
to congratulate me about my first half. All right, I
guess that's the end. No, it was a really fun race,
but it did give exchanged feeling. And uh, when you
look at the history, that's what made it kind of
even stranger because the first female only racing United States
took place in nineteen two in New York and it
was called the Crazy Legs New York Mini Marathon and

(41:14):
it was a six mile race named for mini skirts
and it featured playboy bunnies at the start. That's crazy. Yeah,
I'm crazy for the Crazies Crazy Legs. I believe it
still takes place, but it's called the New York Many.
But then Katherine Switzer launched the Avon International Running Circuit

(41:36):
and the goal was to debunk this about what would
happen to women if they ran, that their unise would
fall out, for instance, and to give women more spaces
to run. But now women only races seemed to reinforce
stereotypes about women. So it's just kind of a weird space.
I'm not against them necessarily, but I do think we

(41:57):
should take a look at the messaging around them. Yeah.
I did a try, like I was saying in the intro,
and I really enjoyed it, and it was women only,
and I felt like it was a very safe space
for me to just give it a shot, give it
a try. Ha um. But of course it was a
pink shirt, and I was like, I don't but I'm
gonna have to keep it because since my first try,
so I'm not going to give that thing away. But

(42:18):
I was like, really, a pink shirt, I mean, that's
the best you could do. Um. But I did. I
did feel as though it made me brave. And I
don't know that I would have gotten in the water
as willingly for the swim like with women and men,
like crushing and splashing through there. Yeah. Yeah, And I
completely get that. And like I said in our jam episode,

(42:39):
for a lot of women, I guess the what the
anxiety is. I get why we need them. I wish
that we didn't need them, but I get why we
need them. And so yeah, I it's more of the
messaging around it, I think fair enough that we should
look into. But this brings us to probably one of
our favorite aspects of running, community and intersectionality of it.

(43:02):
But first it brings us to one more quick break
for word from our sponsor h and we're back, Thank
you sponsor, And we're back with community. The community aspect
of running, because if you compare the number of female

(43:24):
runners to the number of women and other endurance sports
like cycling, our competitive swimming, it is no contest. Running
edges them out by far. So edges is not the
correct word. It's way there's way more women participating in running.
And when trying to pinpoint the reason behind that, the

(43:46):
one reason that comes up the most often is it's
easier to turn running into a social and community forming activity.
And I on I also think it's because it's easier, Um,
because all you need is a pair of shoes and
a place to run. But a lot of women report
that the social aspect of running is more important to

(44:08):
them than the competitive aspect. And you can find a
story after story of women uplifting other racers. Yes, can
I tell you some of those? Please do? Okay, so
as you guys know, I just did one on Sunday.
I was talking about that, I did a half and um,
I I agree. I think that within the running community, yes, definitely.

(44:31):
We all like to talk and we all like to
hang out, and there's great like social aspects of it.
I mean, Annie, I know you don't tend to run
with other runners, but you're missing out because the running
conversation allows you with your running buddy not to look
at them and just to have this conversation where you
can totally just spill it. I mean I spill it

(44:52):
on some of these runs, and I think it's like,
you know, you'll be running in the early morning and
just like the act of running and talking, it's it's
really cathartic. Yeah. Just so listeners, No, I'm kind of
I'm a loane wolf. I'm a loon old runner. I Um,
I'm very bad about running with partners, but I mean

(45:14):
I I do have the community aspect almost outside of running,
if that makes sense, Like friends runners that are runners
that are friends and we talked about running, we could
I mean, Alison and I could talk about running all day.
We won't, but we sort of already have. Yeah, but yes,
you have this experience with the community and having that

(45:36):
while reading. Yeah. So I finished my risk this past Sunday,
and the first thing I did was I went up
to this woman and she was wearing a blue shirt
because that's all I know about her, and she'd finished
just ahead of me, and I went up to her
and I thanked her because I paste off of her
for the last few miles. I was tracking her and
it was exactly like you were saying, you know, you
try to hang onto the person in front and just
let them piece you, and I couldn't catch her. I'm

(45:59):
so because of how strong she was. I got to
the finish line and I made a PR and so awesome.
I'm so psyched about this PR. Yeah, that's awesome. Um,
but before I could even get to her, this blue
shirted woman who I wanted to thank. This other woman
comes up to me and she was like, hey, thank you.
I was like, what, thank you for much? So, oh well,
I tried to catch you, but I couldn't and I

(46:22):
pieced off of you. So there was this whole like
chain going on and I was surprised, and so, you know,
immediately paid it forward to the blue shirted woman. And
it's totally anecdotal, and I get that, but I don't
think guys are doing that. And I wonder what listener
experiences in these situations. Yeah, yeah, we would love to
hear from any other runners about what kind of community

(46:45):
you've experienced while running. So Desiree Lyndon this year is
Boston Marathon winner. She totally illustrates the power of the
female running community. Um, as we were talking about the
conditions for Boston this year were particularly horrible. It was cool.
There are these icy sheets of rain that were pelting you. Um,
I was told that you by the time you got

(47:07):
to the starting line, your sneakers were already wet. So
some you know, smart runners brought a second pair of
shoes so they weren't like running and saggy shoes to
start off. But a lot of people just had saggy shoes.
So anyway, Deserte told The New York Times that she
wasn't sure she'd finish, so she said to her fellow
American runner Lene flann again, you know, let me know

(47:28):
if you need anything, like, you know, I don't know,
see some shielding from the wind, and I'll do it
before I drop out. So Flannagin says, well, you know,
I got a pee, and Lyndon says, cool, I'll hope
you get back in the pack when you're done. First
of all, I can't even believe that they can run
those things so fast and use the bathroom at the
same time, Like that's amazing. So Lynden helps flann again
get back in the pack, long story short, flann again

(47:50):
gets tired, Lynden keeps chucking. Lynden prevails. She totally you know,
she just prevails in these icy conditions and she wins,
and she says, quote, if it hadn't been difficult, it
probably wouldn't have meant as much. Yeah, I mean, so
is it terrible. It was a terrible, terrible marathon. And

(48:10):
she stopped to help her buddies and she still want it.
I just love this story, like love it. So I
had another great story about Flannagan, who coincidentally she was
the first American woman to win the New York City
Marathon in forty years. And she has She's done a
lot for competitive women's running. She's pretty cool. She went

(48:30):
in two thousand seventeen and she was training for the
two thousand sixteen Olympic Trials with this woman, Amy Craig,
also a competitive runner. So according to this story, I read,
Craig and Flannagan are running their stride first stride running
in the Olympic Trials, and Flannagan starts to fade and
Craig as opposed to shooting off ahead and mean like
see you later. I mean, after all, this is the

(48:52):
Olympic Trials. Craig slows down with her. She goes, she
gets flannagain water, which is I mean, at that in
the race and at that like crazy level, you're conserving
every single bit of energy. But she goes and she
gets her running buddy water planning and makes it to
the finish line. She qualifies. Totally debatable. She could have
done that by herself. And I just like, I love that.

(49:15):
I mean, I love that community. I love that. Like,
I mean, I want a pr I want to get
in the Olympic Trials, but I'm still going to stop
to help you. Like It's just I love these stories. Um.
For me, I had a female running butty who pretty
much dragged me over the last seven miles of my
last marathon. I'm like you Annie, who crashed it twenty.

(49:35):
I hit the big bunk at mile nineteen m at
my last marathon, and she was there. She got me
to finish. She tried everything. I mean, she was like,
I'll talk about you know, I'll play pitbull for you.
Here are some pretzels. Let me tell you about my
home renovation. Like shell. She was massaging my cath at
one I mean, but she got me there. And there's

(49:56):
no way that I would have been able to do
it without her, No way. Yeah, those are those stories
are really beautiful, UM, because it is such a competitive
it can be such a competitive thing, and these these
stories that you're sharing, they are, but it's still so
important to to uplift other competitors and other female runners,

(50:20):
and that is that's really lovely. Yeah. I mean you
elevate yourself and you elevate the runners among you. I
like it, and I do think it's a more rewarding
experience that way. I once somebody I think defensively he
was trying to feel better about himself, but he told me,

(50:41):
UM that I was being very selfish by running, and
running is a selfish activity, but like looking back at it,
you can be selfish and it's a healthy activity. But
you can also do things like this that are not
selfish at all. And for a lot of people, people
run for chair to These people run to raise awareness

(51:02):
about about other things. UM, and most of my friends,
for any listeners who are listening to this, like I
hate running, I'm never gonna run. Most of my friends
are that and they still are very supportive though, and
just knowing that they're waiting at the finish line with

(51:25):
a cup of coffee. Whatever it is, it really motivates it,
I think most people. But for sure me knowing that
there are people there that are just hearing you on
and whatever time you get, they they just aren't happy
that you finished. Yeah, my husband has always been super

(51:46):
super supportive. Um, you know, whenever I say like, I
gotta go out for a run, or maybe he'll suggest that, Hey,
I think you do you want to go get some miles,
I'm like, yes, I need to do that because it
just I mean, it helps me, really helps me in
my head and my body. Yeah, for a while I
was doing I now I'm an almost exclusively morning runner,

(52:07):
but for a while I was doing evening runs, and um,
I'd get like the runners high so much I'd shoot
off all these work emails and I found out later
that people thought I was getting drunk after work emailing. No,
I was running. I was not drunk. And one thing
we should say running can be, and currently largely still

(52:30):
is a very white, privileged Western thing. And on the show,
we've spoken before about Black Girls Run, which is a
great organization looking to diversify running in the United States.
Katherine Switzer has an organization organization called to six one Fearless,
named after her BIB number that I know and that
its mission is to quote create a global community for

(52:52):
women runners of all abilities to support, encourage, and inspire
each other towards a positive sense of self and fearlessness.
To six one Fearless clubs can be found currently on
three continents, and there will be more soon. Nice. There's
also Girls on the Round that's a big one. There's
a chapter at my daughter's middle school, and they have
programs all of the US and there for third through

(53:14):
eighth grade girls, and the goal is really inclusion. They
also teach girls to be confident about themselves and reach
their potential while incorporating running games and of course a
five k race at the end. I think it's awesome.
It was started by Molly Barker back and Barker is
an iron man. Try afflate yeah uh and then like

(53:37):
we were kind of alluding to their running groups for charities,
for rock vets or homeless women, all kinds of things.
So if running is something you're interested in but have
been intimidated by, we hope that this inspires you to
check it out. I know a lot of you listeners
listen to the show while you run, so maybe hello

(53:58):
during mid run. That's so awesome. I love that. But
for those that maybe have been like I was when
I was younger, turned away by it because you were
subconscious or whatever it might be, UM hopefully that this
might encourage you to go see if you can find
a community that will support you. And I bet there

(54:18):
is one out there that will absolutely um or whatever
that activity might be. It doesn't have to be running,
but I think that any anything you can find that
community and is it's a great thing. And like I said,
I'll be real, I hated running for a long time.

(54:39):
I hated it. I'd get winded so quickly I felt gross,
just embarrassed. It feels kind of in gamely, yes, because
at first you feel like you should be taking longer strides,
but actually you take kind of these small, stumble thee strides,
or at least that's what it feels like. Um it
doesn't it. It feels powerful once you get in your stride,

(55:04):
but at first, especially I mean even to this day,
if I start thinking about my stride, I feel a
little silly. But it can be so rewarding and um,
since it's Halloween, I want to shout out an app
called Zombies Run. Yes have you played that? I haven't.

(55:26):
I've been wanting to. It's this app. Um there's a
free version and a paid version, but basically every run
is like a mission and you're running from zombies and
it's really cool. Um it, it's like a year there's
a zombie five ft behind you. It can really improve
your running if you're looking for something to spice it up.

(55:47):
And my first five k was the Zombie Run one
and it was a mud run. It wasn't supposed to be,
but it turned into a complete mud run and within
a minute Alison I lost my shoe and I had
to run the race and the only one shoe. The
mud just sucked it up. It was like a never

(56:09):
ending story when he's in that the swamp of depression.
It just ate my shoe. I've never seen it again
to this day, but I I finished. It was a
mud run, and so everybody finished like a five k
and over an hour, but I was in the top twenty. Yeah,
you were Annie with one shoe and this was assuming

(56:30):
not the same race where you broke your ankle. You
have had some adventures out there my friend yep, and
then I went to Red Lobster with one shoe one.
It's an interesting day and you two can have those
interesting experiences, is what we're saying. Hopefully, if you're interested,
then we haven't scared you away. Yeah. It's just a habit.

(56:50):
Nobody's born a runner. You just get out there and
you make it habit and you do it. Yeah. Yeah,
if you want to, if you want to, for sure.
And so in conclusion, and in a lot of ways,
this whole feminism thing is like running a marathon. It's
painful and a test of endurance and strength and patience.
There's camaraderie that might make you cry. You might want

(57:12):
to give up, but don't. But don't. Yeah, I just
keep going. Um. So thank you so much for joining
us today, Alison. It's such a pleasure. I really enjoyed it. Annie,
and thank you Smithy listeners for listening. Yes, um, and
feel free to pitch me any other ideas come back
any time or you listeners, please feel free to write in.

(57:35):
And if you're running experiences, um, even if you don't,
if you hate running, you never want to hear about
it again. I understand our email is a mom Stuff
at how stuff works dot com, or you can find
us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast or Instagram at
Stuff I've Never Told You. Thanks to you for listening,
and thanks as always to our producer Andrew Howard pot

(58:03):
for me