June 4, 2021 • 35 mins
In this epic concluding episode of our galactically important saga, we unpack the Star Wars sequel trilogy. The first order of business? Discussing the women in the movies, the backlash against them, with bonus discussion of women behind the scenes, mansplaining and toxic masculinity.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Smitha and welcome to Steph.
I never told your protection. I heart Radio, Samantha. As
as movie theaters are slowly opening, I have some friends
that went to the movies last week. Oh my gosh,
(00:28):
do you have any memorable theater experiences? So I am
not a movie goer, like I don't love it. And
the only reason I would actually go to a movie
is I feel like for action movies because to me,
that's the intense. The intensity of that is the biggest
(00:51):
draw where you get to see like the booms and
the you know, yeah you heard me, I said the booms.
I feel like the ones that I remember best are
the ones that I went to like late night. So
one of them would be a Harry Potter movie, enjoying
that I remember, I know exactly where I was sitting.
And then one of them would be the Twilight movie
(01:12):
and there was a lot of love to that. And
then the last one I think is you and I
and a couple of friends going to see Spider Verse.
Yeah that was good. That was super Bowl. Yeah. So
I love going to the movies, and part of that
is my dad was a huge movie goer and that
(01:33):
was like our special family thing and um and living
in small town, that was one of the few we
still had to drive thirty minutes to movie theater. But
it was something we did as a family, and I
am a huge nerd, so I dressed up and went
to movies at midnight. I did most of the Harry
Potter movies and some Star Wars movies. I've been to
(01:55):
some premiers that was really cool. But yeah, I have
a lot of I've had a lot of fun times
at movie theaters and I have missed it. I also
enjoy going to the movies by myself in the middle
of the day, right. Actually, that's probably my preference because
to me, unless it's like a's something like that, you
want to talk to each other, be like really excited
about I just want to sit in silence and watch
(02:16):
the movie. Like I think it's the worst place for
a date because I'm like, you don't get to know
each other. Yes, that is true. I I think I
told the story before. But when I was in college,
my roommate and I had a standing date on Friday
where we would go to La Paria and then we
would go see whatever movie, no matter if, like we
thought it was gonna be good or bad at Atlantic
(02:38):
Station because we had a student discount tickets for three dollars,
so it's like, well, what's the loss. Yeah, I we'll
go see Resident Evil Afterlife. Sure we will. And it
was so fun. I loved it so much. But I
have some fun memories with the movies we're talking today,
which for this feminist movie Friday, we are wrapping up
or look at Star Wars with these Star Wars sequel holes,
(03:01):
and there are going to be some spoilers if you
have not seen them all, although we did accidentally spoil
it in a Monday many a couple of months back,
so sorry about that. And yes, we promised that the
Star Wars movie talk is coming to an end for
now because we still want to get Holly from stuff
you miss in history class. To talk about Rogue one.
They are definitely Star Wars characters women characters that I
(03:23):
am looking at discussing for fictional women around the world.
So never fear if that's something you're worried about, although
I doubt anyone is worried about it. I was gonna say,
there's no way we're done like that. That's very like
open the air. There's no such thing as done when
it comes to Star Wars in Annie's world. So they
(03:44):
will absolutely be more Star Wars, just not specifically about
the movie. We're gonna take about the movies, the trilogies, Yes,
for now, for now, And we did watch the Ewok
special and I am in love with Teak and I
love him. I'm very happy. I'm very happy that t
(04:04):
and you connected on such a deep level. Still mad
at the movie though, if if you have to SNEA plus,
they're on the vintage section of the Star Wars content
now so you can, you too, can watch Wilford Brimley
in a very strange Star Wars movie. I still hold
to the fact that is better than the holiday specials.
(04:26):
You haven't seen all the holiday specials, so I saw enough.
You did not see the good part of it. Anyway. Anyway,
one day when we're turning and talking about the Holidays
special b Arthur discussion. Finally, Yes, and as we said
in our previous Star Wars Feminist movie episodes, these are
a bit different than what we normally do, and that
we're covering three movies virtually. I was going to talk
(04:47):
about Rogue one and Solo too, but I was like, start,
we're just doing the sequel trilogy, and we're focusing primarily
on the women and them either in front or behind
the scenes. And you can see the episode Bridget and
I did on the feminism of Star Wars called the
Filmpio Strikes by Uck for more discussion on these movies specifically,
and on toys customing, toxic fandom and toxic masculinity and
(05:09):
man's playing, so much discussion of man's playing and more.
We recently re ran that as a classic, so definitely
check it out right, Yes, But I the reason I
asked that question is because when the sequel trilogy came out,
just like the prequel trilogy, there was so, so, so
so much excitement and at the time, you know it
was announced like J. J. Abrams is gonna do it,
(05:31):
and it's gonna be so cool and sleek. And I
when The Fourth Awakens, the first one came out, I
was in Canada with my parents and I was determined
that we had to get tickets and see it, but
we I wasn't sure where we were going to be,
so it's sort of a last minute thing and it
was this enormous theater. We ended up seeing it in
(05:53):
it's freezing, and we had to sit in the very
front room and I just I just remember staring up
at it and and everyone was so excited and dressed up,
and we'd snuck in like chocolate from a local chocolate teer.
And it was a lovely, lovely time. Yes, And then
(06:14):
I saw The Last Jedi. The next one. I remember
that because I holiday party or office holiday party was
the night came out and like no one showed up
because we're all nerds and we were all watching The
Last Jedi. And then the most recent one, Rise of Skywalker,
was one of the last movies I saw in theaters
before the pandemic shut everything down. And uh, I think
(06:35):
I've told this story before. I had a lovely time.
I don't think it's a good movie, but I had
a lot of fun. Was it a re release because
it was already it had been out several days nineteen, No,
it came out in twenty nineteen and twenty nineteen, and
then the pandemic came out. Yeah, he med twin nineteen. Seriously,
(06:56):
remember this The Knives Out I did with Caroline from
Stuff whatever told you, un lady, Like, we saw Knives
Out and the Rise of Skywalker together. Wow, because I
wasn't a part of that world. It felt like it
was like, yeah, it's been out forever, right, it isn't
at two thousand and sixteen. Nope. Okay, yeah, okay, yeah,
(07:16):
let's get into the plot. Oh yeah, so yeah, we're
talking about the sequels. Obviously, the Force Awakens, which came
out in two thousand fifteen. Yeah, I'm way off, yell.
The Last Jedi came out in two thousands seventeen, and
The Rise of Skywalker came out in two thousand nineteen.
I don't know how all of that bladed together to me,
I guess because seemed like five years in the making
(07:36):
that maybe everything just seemed so gapped out. So here's
a plot in a nutshell. A new evil empire called
the First Order has risen and there's a resistance led
by General Leo or Ghana, who is finding them along
with Pilot Po, Demon X, Dormtrooper Finn, and Forced Sensitive Ray,
(07:56):
eventually leading to a massive confrontation at the First Order
and the Resistance forces, and a confrontation between Ray and
all the Jedi and Darth Sidious Emperor Palpatine all the
Sith You also have the Scott Walker family drama with
Kylo Rin Ben Solo, who has fallen through the Dark
Side and fights with the First Order. The Forces of
(08:16):
Good are victorious and Ray claims that last name of
Skywalker Ape and Solo comes back to the light side. Yea,
all the cameos are There are two d two c
threp O, Chewbacca, Lando, Han, Luke, and Land. All three
of them die throughout these movies, so there you go,
one dies in each of them. And yeah, if the
(08:37):
plot sounds familiar. That was one of the biggest criticisms
of these films is that there was so much fan
service going on. They were just trying really hard to
please the fans, so they essentially did the exact same thing.
There's a death star which is called star Killer Base.
There's a droid caring Plans that starts off everything. There's
a nineteen year old four sensitive on a desert planet.
(09:00):
Especially like the the first and third one, very similar
to the first and third of the original trilogy. And
that is the trouble of nostalgia, which we've talked about
before and again. These are meant to be kids movies,
Hopefully adults will enjoy them. As well. But if a
lot of adults go in and they're like, this better
(09:21):
not ruined what I loved about my childhood and it's
not the exact same thing, and they get really mad,
which was kind of ridiculous. And yes, just like the prequels,
there was so much anticipation about these movies, particularly the
first one, The Force Awakens, and there was so much
backlash from mainly toxic dudes about s j w's ruining
Star Wars, like the level of women being harassed off
(09:42):
social media toxicity. The Last Jed I Am particular, really
really really made these dudes mad, and some claim that
the backlash to that film is part of the reason
the last film in this trilogy feels like it dismisses
everything that happened in the previous film, especially around Raise heritage,
and there's commentary about that in the Last Jedi, like
(10:05):
Kyler Rence says, let the past ie kill it if
you have to um, and then it churned around like
Raised Parents went from being a nobody in the Last
Jedi to give the characters space to grow, like you
don't have to be related to Skywalker family to have
a story or the Force to democratizing the force to
(10:25):
basically switching that whole narative up and as disgust in
the Fampire strikes Back episode down with Disney's treatment of
franchises and its fan boys raised an army of bots
to tank the Last Jedies Rotten Tomato score. And they
said it was because introducing more females characters into the
franchises movement, it's franchise universe. They didn't like that making
(10:46):
one of the male characters quote a victim of the
anti man splanning movement, and that two of the male
characters might quote turn gay. Some called the new trilogy
feminist propaganda, and yeah, go listen to that episode. We
just reran it to talk hearing more about this because
they're the quotes, the quotes from these angry fan boys.
(11:06):
We had so many. They're so shocking and like wow,
wow dudes. And yeah, there's so much backlash that there
are a million rumors that they're going to redo the sequels.
I said, I see some every day, like the New ones.
But still they made a lot of money, which is
always what cracks me up, is like, but you hated
(11:26):
them a lot, but they sure to make a lot, right,
and you still have a conspiracy theory that you think
this is going to come back as better than it
was originally received. Right, Oh yeah, yea yeah. I think
that give it some time and space and people are
going to mellow out, because I always get the example. Um,
(11:47):
when The Empire Strikes Back came out, which is now
pretty widely regarded as the best st Hours movie, people
didn't like it. They didn't like it was sad, they
thought it was dark. It doesn't really have an ending necessarily,
so people were happy with it. But now it's well
beloved and one of the yes. So let's move on
to the character. So we're gonna talk about Ray. So
(12:09):
when we first meet Ray, she's a nineteen year old
scavenger living lonely life on the desert planet of Jacko.
Though she has clearly had a tough and isolated existence,
she's still friendly, cheerful, hopeful, and has a strong moral
compass and desires to help people. She's a good mechanic, independent,
strong willed, and a creative and talented scavenger. And now
(12:31):
so she was able to strike out on her own,
so she lives on meager portions usually has always has.
Her parents left her on Jacko in a traumatic experience
as a child, and she's waiting for them to return,
despite being an excellent pilot, wanting more than jack who
has to offer so yes. With that changes, she eventually
meets Joyed, b B eight and Finn and they are
(12:52):
forced to flee Jacko on the Bolognian Falcon, where they
reconnect with Han Solo to and eventually Leah, who takes
Ray under her wing. Ray discovers she is for Sensitive
and journeys to find Luke Skywalker, who has been missing
ever since his nephew been Ben Solo slaughtered all of
Luke's Padawans and felt to the dark to become Kylo Wren.
Ray convinces a really reticent and grumpy Luke to train her,
(13:14):
and Luke fears her raw power. She forms a forced
diet with Kylo Wren, which is basically Star Wars talk
for a fancy bond where you can connect and communicate
across bass distances or it's called soulmates in the Force,
which doesn't necessarily have to be romantic. The creators when
I have their way to point out and she attempts
to sway him and bring him back to the light.
Eventually Ray succeeds, just as we learned that Ray is
(13:36):
actually Emperor Palpatine's granddaughter, who might also be her uncle
or grandmother. Cloning has complicated you all, and she has
a legacy of the Sith, which are evil Jedi living
inside of her. I just realized some people might really
argue with me about the evil Jedi. Think, oh, well,
that's all. That's a conversation for different days. They're Dark
Side users, and she begins to believe that she is
(13:59):
innately fall Ray fights back the call of the dark Side,
and with the help of all of the Jedi living
inside of her, she's able to defeat Palpatine and all
of the Sith living inside of him. With Luke and
Lane's blessing, she claims the name of Skywalker and continues
the teachings of the Jedi, including with Finn, who it's
(14:20):
poor sensitive and they never explained that in the movie
and later they were like obviously, but in the new
Lego Holiday special that part of the plot is Ray
trying to tick O how to train Finn in the
ways of the Force. Yes, so much Skywalker tragedy. They
make this so sad. I mean, they don't exist anymore,
(14:41):
So don't bring me down even further. I'm just saying
that they've been wiped out. Okay. So, ray has appeared
in comics, specials, TV shows, and video games. It is
rumored she's going to be in season three of The Mandalorian.
While there was backlash against her, overall, she was pretty
well received and Daisy Ridley's portral of her one her
several awards. So there's that she has a big deal
(15:02):
of a character in a lot of ways. She was
a woman and the main character of a massive franchise
who wasn't sexualized. Her costuming was sensible and functional. No
metal bikinis here. She's competent, powerful, smart, and still Simon
in all the same The writers and creators of Raye J. J.
Abrams Lawrence cast them from the original trilogy and Michael
aren't so all dudes here. I wanted to create the
(15:26):
new generations. Luke Skywalker quote un group, which is why
he's barely in the first film, not at all until
the end. They didn't want him to overshadow her introduction,
so it's kind of nice to let her form her
character and let people get to know her. They always
intended for her to be the central character of all
of these films and really spoke about the soft girl
power impact she believed the character would have, but that
(15:49):
she would resonate with everyone, which is true, and some
even labeled this character as a new feminist icon, which
I know. They definitely used her in all of the
Disney toy and Disney Land and World commercials like they
definitely lead in to that, oh for sure. And I
do love seeing young girls in Ray costumes. It warms
my heart. Yeah. Despite being essential character, though she was
(16:13):
frequently left out of Star Wars toy sets. A Monopoly
version of The Force Awakens didn't have a Ray figurine
a Young Girls let her. Complaining about this went viral.
Toymakers said they underestimated demand and or that they were
trying to keep how important she was a secret, so
they didn't include her. Again, She's all supposed to be
the main character, so I'm kind of like, I don't
get that. J. J. Abrams said about this, I will
(16:37):
say that it seems preposterous and wrong that the main
character of the movie is not well represented and what
is clearly a huge piece of the Star Wars world
in terms of merchandizing. And you can see our past
episodes on the power of toys and the lack of
female action figures. But that's something else that in some
ways negatively impacted these movies. Samantha had to listen to
me complain about this. Uh, creative decisions made around toys
(16:58):
and merchandizing. Uh, there are some scenes where it is
so obvious that they did it for toys at least
to be like yeah, yeah, for a better worse. The
Star Wars merchandise set the standard for virchandizing the Star
Wars franchise did. And that I mean similarly like I
love Return of the Jedi, but that was a complain
about Return of the jedis you introduced these walks to
(17:19):
sell some toys, and then you made a bunch of
specials about the Hawks ceiling really hard into the walks.
So we did want to talk about some of the
specific criticisms people have about the character of Ray. But
first we're going to pause for a quick break for
word from our sponsor, every back, Thank you sponsor. Yeah.
(17:50):
So let's talk about some of the main criticisms. And
there's plenty people had about Ray, and reminder, it's cool
to not like something and to critique writing. But a
lot of what we're talking about here is the sexiest bs. Yes. Yes,
So one of the biggest ones that I hear a
lot is that basically she was too good too fast,
or that she is a merry Sue. Essentially, that she
(18:12):
got she got really good, way too quickly. She was
able to resist Kylo Ren's brain probe, she impressed, slashed
her past Han Solo's expectations. She bested and injured Kyler
In in a lightsaber battle without any training. I maintained,
why aren't we asking if Kylo Reren is just bad?
Why aren't we asking if Kyler Wren it's just bad?
When we have these questions if Ray was a white dude,
(18:34):
I'm not so sure we would. But okay, do you
know what a Mary Sue is? Man not? There's oh yeah, okay.
Well this actually did start as a fan fiction term,
but it got accepted into mainstream media. And it's a
fictional character who is perfect in every way, usually an
(18:57):
idealized wish fulfillment of the author. So I feel like
we must have talked about this sum in the fan
fiction episode, But I don't think there's anything wrong with
writing a Mary Sue. I don't think it's great writing,
but I think it is a natural state of being
a young girl where you want to write a story
and in that story, you're perfect and everyone loves you
(19:19):
and wants to be around you. I mean, it just
makes sense to me. But that's also how male writers
write girls like elusive but perfect, right, sexy but not
too sexy, all of those things. Yeah. Yes, And daisically
really has actually spoken out about this when people have
asked about the Mary Sue saying, and she said, there's
(19:40):
no such thing, as Ryan Craig basically pointing out the
term is inherently a sexist and that plenty of male
characters in this franchise fit fat criteria. I will say,
there is a Gary stew Are, there's a there's another
term for it, but there's so few and far between,
and you don't hear that critics as a maid to
(20:00):
actors or that represent characters. That's like a real need
fanation thing, right. That term hasn't made it out into mainstream,
and I think part of this problem is the increased
budget and special effects available for these movies. Mark Hamill
wanted Luke Skywalker to be way more badass and return
the Jedi. But George Lucas was like, that isn't what
this is about. But also we don't have the money
(20:21):
or technology, and people still well seeing that movie for
the first time in theaters had a similar complaint that
Luke went from someone who really got their ask kicked
and the Empire strikes back and then with suddenly a
Jedi knight who took down like Jaba's whole thing. Also,
I get that you like Luke fanboys, I really do,
you have no I do, but it is it is
(20:41):
possible that someone was more but natural than him, or
better at picking things up more quickly than him. It's possible, um.
And also Luke was an inspiration to her and two
people all over the galaxy. That was one of the
main messages of the sequel trilogy of like the Last
Jedi in particular, and that's Luke didn't really have that
(21:03):
he didn't have that example, and she did. And if
you've read any of the extended Universe stuff, Luke did
become almost god like moth Giddea and the Mandalorian was
ready to take his own life rather than face Luke Skywalker.
So I basically what I'm saying, I call it forced creep.
It just kind of happens where if you have the
(21:26):
technology and like, wouldn't this look real cool? I think
that it's gonna It's bound to happen. And I've talked
about how I didn't really like what happened in Luke storyline,
and these a bunch of people didn't, including Mark Hamill
the not my Luke Skywalker thing um, because I didn't
like because it was sad and messages with my sinemon
roal sensibilities and doesn't feel very Luke Skywalker to me.
(21:47):
But he lost all his pad once his nephew did
it in part because Luke failed. He's the last that again,
it made for me watching the recent Mandal Warrian finale
really hard, but I mean it makes sense that would
really mess you up. And I don't own the fandom,
and I think this was a realistic and interesting portrayal.
So kt be matter hurt and have criticisms. It's not
(22:08):
okay to lash out about it and be hateful or
racist or sexist any stuff like that. That's just not cool,
not cool um. And then there's a lot of toxic
masculinity going on in these purposeful I think of critique
like Kyler Wrin and his tantrums. Also, he sucks, that's
(22:28):
my that's my opinion, but that's what I think. He's
no good as a or a Jedi. But anyway, there
is this comparison of the Kyler Ren in general hucks,
who are like the two leaders of the first Order,
and they're being like big babies and emotional and incompetent
and like kind of caddy against each other. Uh. And
then you compare that to the like competent, collected leadership
(22:52):
of Leiah and Holdo, of like these two women getting
stuff done. Some reviews described the last Jedi as women
mostly being right and man most Yeah. Yeah. But also
there is another area people critique a lot, and that
(23:12):
is romance, right, and they ca've handled that way better
with raised romance. I'm very confused throughout I keep yelling
wired at these people together, Wait, what is happening here?
Who are they trying to put together? A lot of
it seems somewhat existent and racist, but hey whatever. And
the first one it seems that Ray and Finn are
going to get together, and the second it's Ray and
Kylo Wren, while Finn and Rose now seems to be
a thing. And then the third is Kylor Rent and
(23:34):
Finn and sort of a triangle. And there's been a
lot of behind the scene speculation about why this was
that Disney exams. We're worried about the backlash again of
an interracial couple if they went the Ray Finn route,
because white women should not be with black people apparently.
But you know, they're gonna put all the minorities together,
because that makes sense, col Um. At the same time,
Finn and Poe we're at one time supposed to get together.
(23:57):
Both actors expressed their willingness and disappointment that the storyline
didn't pin out, and again, yeah, that makes sense because
of the fears from higher ups about backlash once again, Um,
And there's a cut between two women at the end
of the lastestallment. But it feels like more like tokenism
to be like, see we're cool, look at us. Extremely
(24:19):
brief too. It's like yeah, so fast. Yeah. And also
Kylo Red and Slash pen Sola was related to Ray. Yes,
it's weird. They're continuing updating Cannon around that, so I
guess now they aren't I don't know. It's pretty bessy
and their relationship has touches of an abusive wood. But
I have now learned no One Palpatine, which was my
(24:42):
big question after the Rise of Skywalker, his son and
snow cor Strand cast which I suspect is what is
up with the Imperials wanting Greggy slash baby Oodes blood
in the Mandalorian. But unless I'm wrong, Palpatine forced impregnated
Chami Skywalker, who gave birthday Anakin Skywalker, so related, I
(25:03):
would think so, I would think so. But hey, but
all right, let's let's talk about some of other female
characters really quickly, starting with Rose, and we probably will
come back and cover these women more in depth, especially
if you listeners right into it. Let us know if
that's something you would like. But yes, Rose Tycho was
played by Kelly Marie Tran, the first one of color
(25:23):
to play a leading role in Star Wars films, and
in she became the first Asian American woman to appear
on the cover of Vanity Fair for her role as
the character. Rose was introduced in Rhan Johnson's film The
Last Jedi as a loyal resistance officer, a mechanic whose
sisters sacrifice hangs over her to most of us anyway,
she she wasn't a book prior to this, and she's
(25:43):
the protagonist of several comics and appears in TV shows
and video games, but most of us were introduced to
Rose in this movie. She and her sister had joined
the Resistance after watching their homeworld be decimated by the
First Order. She's hopeful, determined, creative, open, clever, and loyal.
She can see both a bigger picture. In the end
of it was making it up. She's instrumental and saving
the Resistance and last Jedi. She also serves as sort
(26:05):
of an every fan, a fan getting pulled into the action,
like when she meets Finn and she's like, are you
Finn deefin uh? Sort of a fan stand in yeah
she uh. She does climb the ranks and plays a
pivotal role in the Rise of Skywalker, and it mostly
takes place off screen, leading to speculate that her role
had been majorly reduced due to racist and sexist backlash,
(26:27):
including her weight, which is stupid. Despite the fact that
she was critically very well received. She everybody was so excited.
I remember that was the one thing I knew about it,
and I was excited. I was like cool. Tran was
just about to give up acting when she got this
role and struggled with the isolation of filming due to confidentiality.
She bonded with the actor John Boyega over it, and
(26:49):
she did a lot of work and a lot of
training and tapped into her family's experience with the Vietnam War,
so she put a lot of effort into it. She did.
Tran underwent therapy to deal with all of this online.
Her askment it when angry fanboys edited her fan page
to include vulgaran racent comments, it made national headlines. Nicole
Carlos over at Salon Route. I kept help, but wonder
(27:09):
if trans character aligned with the misogynistic and racist stereotype
of Asian women as submissive and seductive. With the trolls
have still come out of note, some fans and celebrities
really came out in support of her, which was beautiful
to see and face of all this ugliness, and one
study suggested that the attacks on her were perpetrated by
Russian bots. Tran wrote an essay about the whole thing
(27:30):
for The New York Times called Kelly Marine Tran, I
won't be marginalized by online harassment, She wrote. Their words
reinforced a narrative I had heard my whole life that
I was other, that I didn't belong, that I wasn't
good enough, and simply because I wasn't like them, And
that feeling, I realized now was and is a shame,
A shame for things that made me different, a shame
for the culture from which I came from. When she
(27:52):
appeared on a panel and Star Wars celebration in tween nineteen,
she got a standing ovation and people chanting her name,
and she visibly teared up over it. Over at The Independent,
Clarice Lowfrey wrote that trans reception was not only heartening,
it was a moment of pure relief for so many
fans of the franchise, worried that the well had finally
been poisoned beyond repair. J. J. Abrams said, co I
(28:13):
was grateful to Ryan Johnson for a lot of things
he did in episode eight, The Last Jedi, and the
greatest for me was casting Kelly Marie. Yeah, but she
was barely in the Rise of Scott Walker. She was
definitely replaced by a hobbit um. She was in it
for less than two minutes, absent from merchandizing posters trailers,
(28:33):
prompting the hashtag wears Rose to trend and later hashtag
Rose Tico deserved better and hashtag justice for Rose. Credics
were out spoken about the admission to labeling as one
of the major she's of the film, saying it was
hard to feel like the trolls hadn't one. Absolutely they won,
like they absolutely cut her out. Whatever the reason may
have been, they could have done better, for sure, Yeah, definitely.
(28:56):
And then there's Mas. She's played by Lapidio Yango. A
wise and scrappy pirate, queen and collector and also a
force sensitive A little force sensitive. She attempts to guide
Ray to accept the force and provides aid to the resistance.
Niango's performance was captured through motion capture. Han Solo describes
her as a quote acquired taste. She is centuries old
(29:19):
and a lover of the arts. Then there's Holdo, played
by a Laura Dern Vice Admiral Emlin Holdo. She appears
in the Last Jedi and his second in the chain
of command behind Leia, taking control when Leiah is sidelined
and oh my gosh fanboys and not like her either.
One of the things they hated about that movie was
how flashy pilot Po was called out for essentially man's planting,
And this is a character you're supposed to like. But
(29:41):
that's the point. Not everyone who does sexist things is
a horrible person. Not everyone who man's plants totally sex
Sometimes good guys do it too, and they need to
realize what they're doing, and Po grows and learns as
a character from this whole thing. There were also a
lot of criticisms around her feminine appearance, including from Poe,
her hair, her clothes, her jewelry. Basically that any woman
could be a leader dressed like that and could be
(30:03):
respected dress like that, that was impossible. She sacrificed herself
to save the Resistance with the wholda maneuver which some
fans say broke the Star Wars universe. I went down
that rabbit hole, and I was like, no one is
going to be interested in hearing my thoughts on this,
but I'll tell you that it is a controversy. She's
this eccentric, clever, dedicated, calm competent. She appears in several comics.
(30:25):
If you want more backstory on her. So one of
the main criticisms of her character is that she's painted
as the main antagonist in this film, only for it
to be a reversal as she becomes the hero at
the end. But because of how they painted it, it
didn't work, especially if you're rooting for a Poe. And however,
Poe himself used a phrase need to know, which was
essentially what he was really pissed about with Holdo that
(30:48):
and she wouldn't praise him. In fact, she criticized them. Yeah,
so he was really mad because he give us like
demanding answers and she was like, you know, it's need
to know. Then later he's like, that's the exact same thing, right.
And a part of this is I think you're still
meant to side with Poe, or at least connect with them.
And it's a flip of the traditional storyline of ignoring
orders from your superior with the added layer of a
(31:09):
female leader and a male subordinate. Poe ignored orders from
Leah as well, and a bunch of people died because
of it. Holda and Leah's friendship is one of my
favorite parts of that movie, though they are a longtime friends,
Leah said about her after she died, Protecting the light
was more important to her than looking like a hero.
And speaking of Leiah, I know we've talked about her
a million times before, but I think the key point
about her character are one of them is that she stayed.
(31:33):
Han left, Luke left, but Leah kept up the fight
and mentored the next generation. Leiah takes over raised training
after Luke's death, still hopeful and determined to strong and
wise despite so much tragedy. Again, so much tragedy, so much. Yes,
we do have a little bit more for your listeners,
but first we have one more cup break forward from
(31:53):
her sponsor. Every back, Thank you sponsor. So we did
want to touch on Kathleen Kennedy, who is a huge
controversial flashpoint in the world of Star Wars. Kennedy is
(32:16):
a big time producer. Her first movie was Et the
Actual Terrestrial. The sixty plus films she's worked on have
wrecked upwards of eleven billion dollars, earned more than eight
OSCAR nominations, and with seven point five billion dollars in
box office re seats, she is in third place as
when it comes to producing, behind allmen Kevin Figy, and
Steven Spielberg. When she first got started out, she caught
(32:36):
the attention of Steven Spielberg and worked on several of
his projects. Just look for producer credits in popular movies.
I guarantee you've seen her name before you've seen something
she has done. Right. So, in the early ninety nineties,
she and her husband, Frank of Marshall founded the Kennedy
Marshall Company, and she's received lots and lots of awards.
In two thousand twelve, but she left the Kennedy Marshall
(32:58):
Company to become a co chair of Lucasfilm Limited, next
to George Lucas, and she moved up to president when
Disney bought Lucasfilm out in chosen by Lucas himself, and
her contract is currently set to end in October one.
Which have you seen the rumor that George Lucas is
saying he's coming back? Yes? Always, always, I don't know
(33:21):
what's true and what's false anymore. Okay, So every time
something goes wrong in quotes in Star Wars or is
not to the liking angry fans, she is almost always
bringed right or wrong. You've probably seen her name trending
out on Twitter in response to some perceived Star Wars issue,
especially with the sequel trilogy. UM. I mean, I guess
a part of that makes sense because she is the president,
(33:41):
but I really think she draws a lot more igher
and a lot more like personal attacks than perhaps a
male figure would. UM. So many headlines about how she's
going to get forced out of Star Wars. You may
have seen this recently when Dave Filoni was promoted at
Lucasfilm and he does a bunch of the like Mandalorian
and stuff like that. I definitely want to return to
(34:02):
this for a future episode. I just wanted to mention
it because I swear at least once a week I
see that she's trending and people about at her about
something related Star Wars, and they're like, she's gonna get
replaced by this person. We will see, yes, and one
day we're definitely going to return two Star Wars characters
(34:23):
like Rogue One's Ginner, so perhaps with Holly fry Um,
Kira from Solo, all the women in the shows. But
for now, that is what we have to say about
the Star Wars sequels. Please send any of your thoughts
are suggestions about what movies we should do next are
a way we keep a list. I swear it's not
(34:45):
all Star Wars all the time. You can emails at
Stuff Media, mom Stuff at I Hurt me dot com.
You can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast
or on Instagram. And Stuff I've Never Told You Thanks,
It's always to our super producer Christie you know, thank you,
and thanks to you for listening Stuff I Never Told
You production to I Heart Radio. For more podcast from
my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast,
or Revery listen to favorite shows h
Hey, this is Annie and Smitha and welcome to Steph.
I never told your protection. I heart Radio, Samantha. As
as movie theaters are slowly opening, I have some friends
that went to the movies last week. Oh my gosh,
(00:28):
do you have any memorable theater experiences? So I am
not a movie goer, like I don't love it. And
the only reason I would actually go to a movie
is I feel like for action movies because to me,
that's the intense. The intensity of that is the biggest
(00:51):
draw where you get to see like the booms and
the you know, yeah you heard me, I said the booms.
I feel like the ones that I remember best are
the ones that I went to like late night. So
one of them would be a Harry Potter movie, enjoying
that I remember, I know exactly where I was sitting.
And then one of them would be the Twilight movie
(01:12):
and there was a lot of love to that. And
then the last one I think is you and I
and a couple of friends going to see Spider Verse.
Yeah that was good. That was super Bowl. Yeah. So
I love going to the movies, and part of that
is my dad was a huge movie goer and that
(01:33):
was like our special family thing and um and living
in small town, that was one of the few we
still had to drive thirty minutes to movie theater. But
it was something we did as a family, and I
am a huge nerd, so I dressed up and went
to movies at midnight. I did most of the Harry
Potter movies and some Star Wars movies. I've been to
(01:55):
some premiers that was really cool. But yeah, I have
a lot of I've had a lot of fun times
at movie theaters and I have missed it. I also
enjoy going to the movies by myself in the middle
of the day, right. Actually, that's probably my preference because
to me, unless it's like a's something like that, you
want to talk to each other, be like really excited
about I just want to sit in silence and watch
(02:16):
the movie. Like I think it's the worst place for
a date because I'm like, you don't get to know
each other. Yes, that is true. I I think I
told the story before. But when I was in college,
my roommate and I had a standing date on Friday
where we would go to La Paria and then we
would go see whatever movie, no matter if, like we
thought it was gonna be good or bad at Atlantic
(02:38):
Station because we had a student discount tickets for three dollars,
so it's like, well, what's the loss. Yeah, I we'll
go see Resident Evil Afterlife. Sure we will. And it
was so fun. I loved it so much. But I
have some fun memories with the movies we're talking today,
which for this feminist movie Friday, we are wrapping up
or look at Star Wars with these Star Wars sequel holes,
(03:01):
and there are going to be some spoilers if you
have not seen them all, although we did accidentally spoil
it in a Monday many a couple of months back,
so sorry about that. And yes, we promised that the
Star Wars movie talk is coming to an end for
now because we still want to get Holly from stuff
you miss in history class. To talk about Rogue one.
They are definitely Star Wars characters women characters that I
(03:23):
am looking at discussing for fictional women around the world.
So never fear if that's something you're worried about, although
I doubt anyone is worried about it. I was gonna say,
there's no way we're done like that. That's very like
open the air. There's no such thing as done when
it comes to Star Wars in Annie's world. So they
(03:44):
will absolutely be more Star Wars, just not specifically about
the movie. We're gonna take about the movies, the trilogies, Yes,
for now, for now, And we did watch the Ewok
special and I am in love with Teak and I
love him. I'm very happy. I'm very happy that t
(04:04):
and you connected on such a deep level. Still mad
at the movie though, if if you have to SNEA plus,
they're on the vintage section of the Star Wars content
now so you can, you too, can watch Wilford Brimley
in a very strange Star Wars movie. I still hold
to the fact that is better than the holiday specials.
(04:26):
You haven't seen all the holiday specials, so I saw enough.
You did not see the good part of it. Anyway. Anyway,
one day when we're turning and talking about the Holidays
special b Arthur discussion. Finally, Yes, and as we said
in our previous Star Wars Feminist movie episodes, these are
a bit different than what we normally do, and that
we're covering three movies virtually. I was going to talk
(04:47):
about Rogue one and Solo too, but I was like, start,
we're just doing the sequel trilogy, and we're focusing primarily
on the women and them either in front or behind
the scenes. And you can see the episode Bridget and
I did on the feminism of Star Wars called the
Filmpio Strikes by Uck for more discussion on these movies specifically,
and on toys customing, toxic fandom and toxic masculinity and
(05:09):
man's playing, so much discussion of man's playing and more.
We recently re ran that as a classic, so definitely
check it out right, Yes, But I the reason I
asked that question is because when the sequel trilogy came out,
just like the prequel trilogy, there was so, so, so
so much excitement and at the time, you know it
was announced like J. J. Abrams is gonna do it,
(05:31):
and it's gonna be so cool and sleek. And I
when The Fourth Awakens, the first one came out, I
was in Canada with my parents and I was determined
that we had to get tickets and see it, but
we I wasn't sure where we were going to be,
so it's sort of a last minute thing and it
was this enormous theater. We ended up seeing it in
(05:53):
it's freezing, and we had to sit in the very
front room and I just I just remember staring up
at it and and everyone was so excited and dressed up,
and we'd snuck in like chocolate from a local chocolate teer.
And it was a lovely, lovely time. Yes, And then
(06:14):
I saw The Last Jedi. The next one. I remember
that because I holiday party or office holiday party was
the night came out and like no one showed up
because we're all nerds and we were all watching The
Last Jedi. And then the most recent one, Rise of Skywalker,
was one of the last movies I saw in theaters
before the pandemic shut everything down. And uh, I think
(06:35):
I've told this story before. I had a lovely time.
I don't think it's a good movie, but I had
a lot of fun. Was it a re release because
it was already it had been out several days nineteen, No,
it came out in twenty nineteen and twenty nineteen, and
then the pandemic came out. Yeah, he med twin nineteen. Seriously,
(06:56):
remember this The Knives Out I did with Caroline from
Stuff whatever told you, un lady, Like, we saw Knives
Out and the Rise of Skywalker together. Wow, because I
wasn't a part of that world. It felt like it
was like, yeah, it's been out forever, right, it isn't
at two thousand and sixteen. Nope. Okay, yeah, okay, yeah,
(07:16):
let's get into the plot. Oh yeah, so yeah, we're
talking about the sequels. Obviously, the Force Awakens, which came
out in two thousand fifteen. Yeah, I'm way off, yell.
The Last Jedi came out in two thousands seventeen, and
The Rise of Skywalker came out in two thousand nineteen.
I don't know how all of that bladed together to me,
I guess because seemed like five years in the making
(07:36):
that maybe everything just seemed so gapped out. So here's
a plot in a nutshell. A new evil empire called
the First Order has risen and there's a resistance led
by General Leo or Ghana, who is finding them along
with Pilot Po, Demon X, Dormtrooper Finn, and Forced Sensitive Ray,
(07:56):
eventually leading to a massive confrontation at the First Order
and the Resistance forces, and a confrontation between Ray and
all the Jedi and Darth Sidious Emperor Palpatine all the
Sith You also have the Scott Walker family drama with
Kylo Rin Ben Solo, who has fallen through the Dark
Side and fights with the First Order. The Forces of
(08:16):
Good are victorious and Ray claims that last name of
Skywalker Ape and Solo comes back to the light side. Yea,
all the cameos are There are two d two c
threp O, Chewbacca, Lando, Han, Luke, and Land. All three
of them die throughout these movies, so there you go,
one dies in each of them. And yeah, if the
(08:37):
plot sounds familiar. That was one of the biggest criticisms
of these films is that there was so much fan
service going on. They were just trying really hard to
please the fans, so they essentially did the exact same thing.
There's a death star which is called star Killer Base.
There's a droid caring Plans that starts off everything. There's
a nineteen year old four sensitive on a desert planet.
(09:00):
Especially like the the first and third one, very similar
to the first and third of the original trilogy. And
that is the trouble of nostalgia, which we've talked about
before and again. These are meant to be kids movies,
Hopefully adults will enjoy them. As well. But if a
lot of adults go in and they're like, this better
(09:21):
not ruined what I loved about my childhood and it's
not the exact same thing, and they get really mad,
which was kind of ridiculous. And yes, just like the prequels,
there was so much anticipation about these movies, particularly the
first one, The Force Awakens, and there was so much
backlash from mainly toxic dudes about s j w's ruining
Star Wars, like the level of women being harassed off
(09:42):
social media toxicity. The Last Jed I Am particular, really
really really made these dudes mad, and some claim that
the backlash to that film is part of the reason
the last film in this trilogy feels like it dismisses
everything that happened in the previous film, especially around Raise heritage,
and there's commentary about that in the Last Jedi, like
(10:05):
Kyler Rence says, let the past ie kill it if
you have to um, and then it churned around like
Raised Parents went from being a nobody in the Last
Jedi to give the characters space to grow, like you
don't have to be related to Skywalker family to have
a story or the Force to democratizing the force to
(10:25):
basically switching that whole narative up and as disgust in
the Fampire strikes Back episode down with Disney's treatment of
franchises and its fan boys raised an army of bots
to tank the Last Jedies Rotten Tomato score. And they
said it was because introducing more females characters into the
franchises movement, it's franchise universe. They didn't like that making
(10:46):
one of the male characters quote a victim of the
anti man splanning movement, and that two of the male
characters might quote turn gay. Some called the new trilogy
feminist propaganda, and yeah, go listen to that episode. We
just reran it to talk hearing more about this because
they're the quotes, the quotes from these angry fan boys.
(11:06):
We had so many. They're so shocking and like wow,
wow dudes. And yeah, there's so much backlash that there
are a million rumors that they're going to redo the sequels.
I said, I see some every day, like the New ones.
But still they made a lot of money, which is
always what cracks me up, is like, but you hated
(11:26):
them a lot, but they sure to make a lot, right,
and you still have a conspiracy theory that you think
this is going to come back as better than it
was originally received. Right, Oh yeah, yea yeah. I think
that give it some time and space and people are
going to mellow out, because I always get the example. Um,
(11:47):
when The Empire Strikes Back came out, which is now
pretty widely regarded as the best st Hours movie, people
didn't like it. They didn't like it was sad, they
thought it was dark. It doesn't really have an ending necessarily,
so people were happy with it. But now it's well
beloved and one of the yes. So let's move on
to the character. So we're gonna talk about Ray. So
(12:09):
when we first meet Ray, she's a nineteen year old
scavenger living lonely life on the desert planet of Jacko.
Though she has clearly had a tough and isolated existence,
she's still friendly, cheerful, hopeful, and has a strong moral
compass and desires to help people. She's a good mechanic, independent,
strong willed, and a creative and talented scavenger. And now
(12:31):
so she was able to strike out on her own,
so she lives on meager portions usually has always has.
Her parents left her on Jacko in a traumatic experience
as a child, and she's waiting for them to return,
despite being an excellent pilot, wanting more than jack who
has to offer so yes. With that changes, she eventually
meets Joyed, b B eight and Finn and they are
(12:52):
forced to flee Jacko on the Bolognian Falcon, where they
reconnect with Han Solo to and eventually Leah, who takes
Ray under her wing. Ray discovers she is for Sensitive
and journeys to find Luke Skywalker, who has been missing
ever since his nephew been Ben Solo slaughtered all of
Luke's Padawans and felt to the dark to become Kylo Wren.
Ray convinces a really reticent and grumpy Luke to train her,
(13:14):
and Luke fears her raw power. She forms a forced
diet with Kylo Wren, which is basically Star Wars talk
for a fancy bond where you can connect and communicate
across bass distances or it's called soulmates in the Force,
which doesn't necessarily have to be romantic. The creators when
I have their way to point out and she attempts
to sway him and bring him back to the light.
Eventually Ray succeeds, just as we learned that Ray is
(13:36):
actually Emperor Palpatine's granddaughter, who might also be her uncle
or grandmother. Cloning has complicated you all, and she has
a legacy of the Sith, which are evil Jedi living
inside of her. I just realized some people might really
argue with me about the evil Jedi. Think, oh, well,
that's all. That's a conversation for different days. They're Dark
Side users, and she begins to believe that she is
(13:59):
innately fall Ray fights back the call of the dark Side,
and with the help of all of the Jedi living
inside of her, she's able to defeat Palpatine and all
of the Sith living inside of him. With Luke and
Lane's blessing, she claims the name of Skywalker and continues
the teachings of the Jedi, including with Finn, who it's
(14:20):
poor sensitive and they never explained that in the movie
and later they were like obviously, but in the new
Lego Holiday special that part of the plot is Ray
trying to tick O how to train Finn in the
ways of the Force. Yes, so much Skywalker tragedy. They
make this so sad. I mean, they don't exist anymore,
(14:41):
So don't bring me down even further. I'm just saying
that they've been wiped out. Okay. So, ray has appeared
in comics, specials, TV shows, and video games. It is
rumored she's going to be in season three of The Mandalorian.
While there was backlash against her, overall, she was pretty
well received and Daisy Ridley's portral of her one her
several awards. So there's that she has a big deal
(15:02):
of a character in a lot of ways. She was
a woman and the main character of a massive franchise
who wasn't sexualized. Her costuming was sensible and functional. No
metal bikinis here. She's competent, powerful, smart, and still Simon
in all the same The writers and creators of Raye J. J.
Abrams Lawrence cast them from the original trilogy and Michael
aren't so all dudes here. I wanted to create the
(15:26):
new generations. Luke Skywalker quote un group, which is why
he's barely in the first film, not at all until
the end. They didn't want him to overshadow her introduction,
so it's kind of nice to let her form her
character and let people get to know her. They always
intended for her to be the central character of all
of these films and really spoke about the soft girl
power impact she believed the character would have, but that
(15:49):
she would resonate with everyone, which is true, and some
even labeled this character as a new feminist icon, which
I know. They definitely used her in all of the
Disney toy and Disney Land and World commercials like they
definitely lead in to that, oh for sure. And I
do love seeing young girls in Ray costumes. It warms
my heart. Yeah. Despite being essential character, though she was
(16:13):
frequently left out of Star Wars toy sets. A Monopoly
version of The Force Awakens didn't have a Ray figurine
a Young Girls let her. Complaining about this went viral.
Toymakers said they underestimated demand and or that they were
trying to keep how important she was a secret, so
they didn't include her. Again, She's all supposed to be
the main character, so I'm kind of like, I don't
get that. J. J. Abrams said about this, I will
(16:37):
say that it seems preposterous and wrong that the main
character of the movie is not well represented and what
is clearly a huge piece of the Star Wars world
in terms of merchandizing. And you can see our past
episodes on the power of toys and the lack of
female action figures. But that's something else that in some
ways negatively impacted these movies. Samantha had to listen to
me complain about this. Uh, creative decisions made around toys
(16:58):
and merchandizing. Uh, there are some scenes where it is
so obvious that they did it for toys at least
to be like yeah, yeah, for a better worse. The
Star Wars merchandise set the standard for virchandizing the Star
Wars franchise did. And that I mean similarly like I
love Return of the Jedi, but that was a complain
about Return of the jedis you introduced these walks to
(17:19):
sell some toys, and then you made a bunch of
specials about the Hawks ceiling really hard into the walks.
So we did want to talk about some of the
specific criticisms people have about the character of Ray. But
first we're going to pause for a quick break for
word from our sponsor, every back, Thank you sponsor. Yeah.
(17:50):
So let's talk about some of the main criticisms. And
there's plenty people had about Ray, and reminder, it's cool
to not like something and to critique writing. But a
lot of what we're talking about here is the sexiest bs. Yes. Yes,
So one of the biggest ones that I hear a
lot is that basically she was too good too fast,
or that she is a merry Sue. Essentially, that she
(18:12):
got she got really good, way too quickly. She was
able to resist Kylo Ren's brain probe, she impressed, slashed
her past Han Solo's expectations. She bested and injured Kyler
In in a lightsaber battle without any training. I maintained,
why aren't we asking if Kylo Reren is just bad?
Why aren't we asking if Kyler Wren it's just bad?
When we have these questions if Ray was a white dude,
(18:34):
I'm not so sure we would. But okay, do you
know what a Mary Sue is? Man not? There's oh yeah, okay.
Well this actually did start as a fan fiction term,
but it got accepted into mainstream media. And it's a
fictional character who is perfect in every way, usually an
(18:57):
idealized wish fulfillment of the author. So I feel like
we must have talked about this sum in the fan
fiction episode, But I don't think there's anything wrong with
writing a Mary Sue. I don't think it's great writing,
but I think it is a natural state of being
a young girl where you want to write a story
and in that story, you're perfect and everyone loves you
(19:19):
and wants to be around you. I mean, it just
makes sense to me. But that's also how male writers
write girls like elusive but perfect, right, sexy but not
too sexy, all of those things. Yeah. Yes, And daisically
really has actually spoken out about this when people have
asked about the Mary Sue saying, and she said, there's
(19:40):
no such thing, as Ryan Craig basically pointing out the
term is inherently a sexist and that plenty of male
characters in this franchise fit fat criteria. I will say,
there is a Gary stew Are, there's a there's another
term for it, but there's so few and far between,
and you don't hear that critics as a maid to
(20:00):
actors or that represent characters. That's like a real need
fanation thing, right. That term hasn't made it out into mainstream,
and I think part of this problem is the increased
budget and special effects available for these movies. Mark Hamill
wanted Luke Skywalker to be way more badass and return
the Jedi. But George Lucas was like, that isn't what
this is about. But also we don't have the money
(20:21):
or technology, and people still well seeing that movie for
the first time in theaters had a similar complaint that
Luke went from someone who really got their ask kicked
and the Empire strikes back and then with suddenly a
Jedi knight who took down like Jaba's whole thing. Also,
I get that you like Luke fanboys, I really do,
you have no I do, but it is it is
(20:41):
possible that someone was more but natural than him, or
better at picking things up more quickly than him. It's possible, um.
And also Luke was an inspiration to her and two
people all over the galaxy. That was one of the
main messages of the sequel trilogy of like the Last
Jedi in particular, and that's Luke didn't really have that
(21:03):
he didn't have that example, and she did. And if
you've read any of the extended Universe stuff, Luke did
become almost god like moth Giddea and the Mandalorian was
ready to take his own life rather than face Luke Skywalker.
So I basically what I'm saying, I call it forced creep.
It just kind of happens where if you have the
(21:26):
technology and like, wouldn't this look real cool? I think
that it's gonna It's bound to happen. And I've talked
about how I didn't really like what happened in Luke storyline,
and these a bunch of people didn't, including Mark Hamill
the not my Luke Skywalker thing um, because I didn't
like because it was sad and messages with my sinemon
roal sensibilities and doesn't feel very Luke Skywalker to me.
(21:47):
But he lost all his pad once his nephew did
it in part because Luke failed. He's the last that again,
it made for me watching the recent Mandal Warrian finale
really hard, but I mean it makes sense that would
really mess you up. And I don't own the fandom,
and I think this was a realistic and interesting portrayal.
So kt be matter hurt and have criticisms. It's not
(22:08):
okay to lash out about it and be hateful or
racist or sexist any stuff like that. That's just not cool,
not cool um. And then there's a lot of toxic
masculinity going on in these purposeful I think of critique
like Kyler Wrin and his tantrums. Also, he sucks, that's
(22:28):
my that's my opinion, but that's what I think. He's
no good as a or a Jedi. But anyway, there
is this comparison of the Kyler Ren in general hucks,
who are like the two leaders of the first Order,
and they're being like big babies and emotional and incompetent
and like kind of caddy against each other. Uh. And
then you compare that to the like competent, collected leadership
(22:52):
of Leiah and Holdo, of like these two women getting
stuff done. Some reviews described the last Jedi as women
mostly being right and man most Yeah. Yeah. But also
there is another area people critique a lot, and that
(23:12):
is romance, right, and they ca've handled that way better
with raised romance. I'm very confused throughout I keep yelling
wired at these people together, Wait, what is happening here?
Who are they trying to put together? A lot of
it seems somewhat existent and racist, but hey whatever. And
the first one it seems that Ray and Finn are
going to get together, and the second it's Ray and
Kylo Wren, while Finn and Rose now seems to be
a thing. And then the third is Kylor Rent and
(23:34):
Finn and sort of a triangle. And there's been a
lot of behind the scene speculation about why this was
that Disney exams. We're worried about the backlash again of
an interracial couple if they went the Ray Finn route,
because white women should not be with black people apparently.
But you know, they're gonna put all the minorities together,
because that makes sense, col Um. At the same time,
Finn and Poe we're at one time supposed to get together.
(23:57):
Both actors expressed their willingness and disappointment that the storyline
didn't pin out, and again, yeah, that makes sense because
of the fears from higher ups about backlash once again, Um,
And there's a cut between two women at the end
of the lastestallment. But it feels like more like tokenism
to be like, see we're cool, look at us. Extremely
(24:19):
brief too. It's like yeah, so fast. Yeah. And also
Kylo Red and Slash pen Sola was related to Ray. Yes,
it's weird. They're continuing updating Cannon around that, so I
guess now they aren't I don't know. It's pretty bessy
and their relationship has touches of an abusive wood. But
I have now learned no One Palpatine, which was my
(24:42):
big question after the Rise of Skywalker, his son and
snow cor Strand cast which I suspect is what is
up with the Imperials wanting Greggy slash baby Oodes blood
in the Mandalorian. But unless I'm wrong, Palpatine forced impregnated
Chami Skywalker, who gave birthday Anakin Skywalker, so related, I
(25:03):
would think so, I would think so. But hey, but
all right, let's let's talk about some of other female
characters really quickly, starting with Rose, and we probably will
come back and cover these women more in depth, especially
if you listeners right into it. Let us know if
that's something you would like. But yes, Rose Tycho was
played by Kelly Marie Tran, the first one of color
(25:23):
to play a leading role in Star Wars films, and
in she became the first Asian American woman to appear
on the cover of Vanity Fair for her role as
the character. Rose was introduced in Rhan Johnson's film The
Last Jedi as a loyal resistance officer, a mechanic whose
sisters sacrifice hangs over her to most of us anyway,
she she wasn't a book prior to this, and she's
(25:43):
the protagonist of several comics and appears in TV shows
and video games, but most of us were introduced to
Rose in this movie. She and her sister had joined
the Resistance after watching their homeworld be decimated by the
First Order. She's hopeful, determined, creative, open, clever, and loyal.
She can see both a bigger picture. In the end
of it was making it up. She's instrumental and saving
the Resistance and last Jedi. She also serves as sort
(26:05):
of an every fan, a fan getting pulled into the action,
like when she meets Finn and she's like, are you
Finn deefin uh? Sort of a fan stand in yeah
she uh. She does climb the ranks and plays a
pivotal role in the Rise of Skywalker, and it mostly
takes place off screen, leading to speculate that her role
had been majorly reduced due to racist and sexist backlash,
(26:27):
including her weight, which is stupid. Despite the fact that
she was critically very well received. She everybody was so excited.
I remember that was the one thing I knew about it,
and I was excited. I was like cool. Tran was
just about to give up acting when she got this
role and struggled with the isolation of filming due to confidentiality.
She bonded with the actor John Boyega over it, and
(26:49):
she did a lot of work and a lot of
training and tapped into her family's experience with the Vietnam War,
so she put a lot of effort into it. She did.
Tran underwent therapy to deal with all of this online.
Her askment it when angry fanboys edited her fan page
to include vulgaran racent comments, it made national headlines. Nicole
Carlos over at Salon Route. I kept help, but wonder
(27:09):
if trans character aligned with the misogynistic and racist stereotype
of Asian women as submissive and seductive. With the trolls
have still come out of note, some fans and celebrities
really came out in support of her, which was beautiful
to see and face of all this ugliness, and one
study suggested that the attacks on her were perpetrated by
Russian bots. Tran wrote an essay about the whole thing
(27:30):
for The New York Times called Kelly Marine Tran, I
won't be marginalized by online harassment, She wrote. Their words
reinforced a narrative I had heard my whole life that
I was other, that I didn't belong, that I wasn't
good enough, and simply because I wasn't like them, And
that feeling, I realized now was and is a shame,
A shame for things that made me different, a shame
for the culture from which I came from. When she
(27:52):
appeared on a panel and Star Wars celebration in tween nineteen,
she got a standing ovation and people chanting her name,
and she visibly teared up over it. Over at The Independent,
Clarice Lowfrey wrote that trans reception was not only heartening,
it was a moment of pure relief for so many
fans of the franchise, worried that the well had finally
been poisoned beyond repair. J. J. Abrams said, co I
(28:13):
was grateful to Ryan Johnson for a lot of things
he did in episode eight, The Last Jedi, and the
greatest for me was casting Kelly Marie. Yeah, but she
was barely in the Rise of Scott Walker. She was
definitely replaced by a hobbit um. She was in it
for less than two minutes, absent from merchandizing posters trailers,
(28:33):
prompting the hashtag wears Rose to trend and later hashtag
Rose Tico deserved better and hashtag justice for Rose. Credics
were out spoken about the admission to labeling as one
of the major she's of the film, saying it was
hard to feel like the trolls hadn't one. Absolutely they won,
like they absolutely cut her out. Whatever the reason may
have been, they could have done better, for sure, Yeah, definitely.
(28:56):
And then there's Mas. She's played by Lapidio Yango. A
wise and scrappy pirate, queen and collector and also a
force sensitive A little force sensitive. She attempts to guide
Ray to accept the force and provides aid to the resistance.
Niango's performance was captured through motion capture. Han Solo describes
her as a quote acquired taste. She is centuries old
(29:19):
and a lover of the arts. Then there's Holdo, played
by a Laura Dern Vice Admiral Emlin Holdo. She appears
in the Last Jedi and his second in the chain
of command behind Leia, taking control when Leiah is sidelined
and oh my gosh fanboys and not like her either.
One of the things they hated about that movie was
how flashy pilot Po was called out for essentially man's planting,
And this is a character you're supposed to like. But
(29:41):
that's the point. Not everyone who does sexist things is
a horrible person. Not everyone who man's plants totally sex
Sometimes good guys do it too, and they need to
realize what they're doing, and Po grows and learns as
a character from this whole thing. There were also a
lot of criticisms around her feminine appearance, including from Poe,
her hair, her clothes, her jewelry. Basically that any woman
could be a leader dressed like that and could be
(30:03):
respected dress like that, that was impossible. She sacrificed herself
to save the Resistance with the wholda maneuver which some
fans say broke the Star Wars universe. I went down
that rabbit hole, and I was like, no one is
going to be interested in hearing my thoughts on this,
but I'll tell you that it is a controversy. She's
this eccentric, clever, dedicated, calm competent. She appears in several comics.
(30:25):
If you want more backstory on her. So one of
the main criticisms of her character is that she's painted
as the main antagonist in this film, only for it
to be a reversal as she becomes the hero at
the end. But because of how they painted it, it
didn't work, especially if you're rooting for a Poe. And however,
Poe himself used a phrase need to know, which was
essentially what he was really pissed about with Holdo that
(30:48):
and she wouldn't praise him. In fact, she criticized them. Yeah,
so he was really mad because he give us like
demanding answers and she was like, you know, it's need
to know. Then later he's like, that's the exact same thing, right.
And a part of this is I think you're still
meant to side with Poe, or at least connect with them.
And it's a flip of the traditional storyline of ignoring
orders from your superior with the added layer of a
(31:09):
female leader and a male subordinate. Poe ignored orders from
Leah as well, and a bunch of people died because
of it. Holda and Leah's friendship is one of my
favorite parts of that movie, though they are a longtime friends,
Leah said about her after she died, Protecting the light
was more important to her than looking like a hero.
And speaking of Leiah, I know we've talked about her
a million times before, but I think the key point
about her character are one of them is that she stayed.
(31:33):
Han left, Luke left, but Leah kept up the fight
and mentored the next generation. Leiah takes over raised training
after Luke's death, still hopeful and determined to strong and
wise despite so much tragedy. Again, so much tragedy, so much. Yes,
we do have a little bit more for your listeners,
but first we have one more cup break forward from
(31:53):
her sponsor. Every back, Thank you sponsor. So we did
want to touch on Kathleen Kennedy, who is a huge
controversial flashpoint in the world of Star Wars. Kennedy is
(32:16):
a big time producer. Her first movie was Et the
Actual Terrestrial. The sixty plus films she's worked on have
wrecked upwards of eleven billion dollars, earned more than eight
OSCAR nominations, and with seven point five billion dollars in
box office re seats, she is in third place as
when it comes to producing, behind allmen Kevin Figy, and
Steven Spielberg. When she first got started out, she caught
(32:36):
the attention of Steven Spielberg and worked on several of
his projects. Just look for producer credits in popular movies.
I guarantee you've seen her name before you've seen something
she has done. Right. So, in the early ninety nineties,
she and her husband, Frank of Marshall founded the Kennedy
Marshall Company, and she's received lots and lots of awards.
In two thousand twelve, but she left the Kennedy Marshall
(32:58):
Company to become a co chair of Lucasfilm Limited, next
to George Lucas, and she moved up to president when
Disney bought Lucasfilm out in chosen by Lucas himself, and
her contract is currently set to end in October one.
Which have you seen the rumor that George Lucas is
saying he's coming back? Yes? Always, always, I don't know
(33:21):
what's true and what's false anymore. Okay, So every time
something goes wrong in quotes in Star Wars or is
not to the liking angry fans, she is almost always
bringed right or wrong. You've probably seen her name trending
out on Twitter in response to some perceived Star Wars issue,
especially with the sequel trilogy. UM. I mean, I guess
a part of that makes sense because she is the president,
(33:41):
but I really think she draws a lot more igher
and a lot more like personal attacks than perhaps a
male figure would. UM. So many headlines about how she's
going to get forced out of Star Wars. You may
have seen this recently when Dave Filoni was promoted at
Lucasfilm and he does a bunch of the like Mandalorian
and stuff like that. I definitely want to return to
(34:02):
this for a future episode. I just wanted to mention
it because I swear at least once a week I
see that she's trending and people about at her about
something related Star Wars, and they're like, she's gonna get
replaced by this person. We will see, yes, and one
day we're definitely going to return two Star Wars characters
(34:23):
like Rogue One's Ginner, so perhaps with Holly fry Um,
Kira from Solo, all the women in the shows. But
for now, that is what we have to say about
the Star Wars sequels. Please send any of your thoughts
are suggestions about what movies we should do next are
a way we keep a list. I swear it's not
(34:45):
all Star Wars all the time. You can emails at
Stuff Media, mom Stuff at I Hurt me dot com.
You can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast
or on Instagram. And Stuff I've Never Told You Thanks,
It's always to our super producer Christie you know, thank you,
and thanks to you for listening Stuff I Never Told
You production to I Heart Radio. For more podcast from
my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast,
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