August 10, 2016 • 49 mins
At the 2016 Summer Olympics women's boxing event, all eyes are on U.S.A. phenom Claressa Shields. Cristen and Caroline share Shields' inspiring backstory and women's boxing's long road to Olympic glory.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to stuff Mom never told you. From House top
works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm
Kristen and I'm Caroline. And when we're recording this, we
are one day away from the Rio Games, the two
(00:24):
thousand sixteen Summer Olympics. So exciting. I actually, you know,
I I'm I've never been a sports fan. I'm just
gonna go ahead and I myself. I know, sucker, you
wipe that look off your face, conger, I'm smiling. Yeah,
uh huh um. But I I do love the excitement
(00:46):
and the community feeling and the electricity that comes from
watching the Olympics. Um well, hopefully not electricity anywhere near
the swimmers, but electricity in your bones, the feeling that
you it watching all of these people, these patriotic athletes
competing to win the gold. Yeah. And this year I'm
(01:07):
going to be watching boxing. And I'll tell you what, Caroline,
I never watch boxing ever. It makes me uncomfortable to
watch a professional boxing match. I don't like it. It
makes me nervous. So there's somehow going to like jump
through the TV screen and like break my coffee table.
So you're not a fan of conflict, I get it.
(01:29):
It's true, but I am a huge fan of the
USA middleweight favorite Claressa Shields. Oh she's got a great story.
She's amazing. I was just telling Kristen before we came
into the studio that I would watch the movie of
Claressa Shields from Flint, Michigan training with her coach Billy Walsh,
(01:55):
who's this Irish dude who's molded all of these really
successful amateur teams, and he and Claressa totally budded heads.
There's this great article that we read about, you know,
Clarissa being successful and the top of her game and
also incredibly hardheaded. And here comes this new coach of hers,
(02:16):
you know, telling her how to improve and and she
just they were not see an eye to eye. Yeah,
but they worked through their conflict and are now a
really well oiled machine. And I love in that NBC
article that Claressa said, you know, it turned out that
he had some things to teach me, and I've got
(02:37):
some things to teach him. And just for a little background,
uh in we were talking about Claressa Shields on stuff
and I've never told you because the London Olympics was
the first time that women's boxing was an event, and CLARESSA.
Shields was seventeen years old at the time, and she
(02:59):
brought whole the gold. Yeah, she did. She made history.
She did make history. And at twenty one she is
still a fierce fighter. Uh. We read an article about
her in the Denver Post and they wrote, no US
amateur is more important than Shields, who built on her
teenage dominance in London with two World championships and a
(03:21):
pan Am Games gold. And they write, now she's a
smooth twenty one year old team leader with major endorsement deals.
And it might seem like not a huge deal or
huge thing to note that she has endorsement deals, but
actually that's pretty important to bring up. Yeah. So there
(03:42):
is a PBS Independent lens documentary on Clarissa Shields called
t REX Her Fight for the Gold, which I highly
recommend watching. Um. It's actually available to stream for free
on the PBS site throughout August UM and it traces
how she went from being an eleven year old kid
(04:05):
in Flint, Michigan, which, if you're not familiar, Flint, Michigan
is just destitute in a lot of ways. Um, A
lot of factory jobs have evaporated, completely evaporated. Of course,
there's a whole water issue um that's been a major
issue in the political campaign here in the US UM
(04:28):
and it's just a bad situation all around. And for Shields,
her father was imprisoned, her mother has had addiction issues
off and on, and at eleven, she shows up to
this boxing gym in Flint, and the coach there, Jason
crutch Field, who ended up being her first coach, spotted
her talent and so he kind of took her under
(04:51):
his wing. But Crushfield had no idea that Sheields wi
get as far as she had because he said that
he didn't agree with female boxing at the time. Time.
But which is a pretty common thing that you hear
from a lot of people in the sports world. Oh yeah,
I mean, and and that's really what this episode that
(05:11):
we're going to play from is focused on, is why
it's taken so long for women's amateur boxing to get
into the Olympics, and and the reasons. You know, the
basic reasons aren't that surprising. Women punching other women violates
like all feminine gender norms. Yeah, I mean, think about
you know, you just mentioned being uncomfortable watching boxing in general,
(05:33):
Like think about people like a Jason crutch Field from earlier,
or just think about your average sports viewer. I'm sure
a lot of people are very uncomfortable with watching two
women essentially just beat each other about the face a
whole bunch. Well, and watching Shields is story unfold in
the t Rex documentary. Uh makes me want to watch her,
(05:57):
you know, bunch other women because uh, I mean that again,
her background is just so incredible. I mean, she really
is living the American dream. Not to get cliche about it,
but it's true. Yeah, And I mean you mentioned wanting
to watch her punch other women in the face, and
it was you know, I mentioned her endorsement deals a
(06:18):
second ago. And it is that very public, open and
almost gleeful discussion of being able to say, successfully punch
other women in the face that made people tell Clarissa
that she needed to perhaps tone her bravado down a
little bit if she did want to secure those deals. Yeah,
because after she won the gold in London, she comes
(06:42):
back to Flint, She's greeted with a hero's welcome. The
local airport was flooded with fans of hers. She had
a whole parade, but she ends up back at home
and she's essentially having to support her family and trying
to figure out, still at seventeen years old, how to
(07:02):
get through high school, whether she wants to stay amateur
and shoot for another gold or whether she wants to
turn pro, and what to do with the kinds of
offers that were immediately coming her way. And it was
really hard for her at first to kind of wrap
(07:22):
her head around the whole what's next, because she had
been so focused on just getting to London and wanting
to get the gold. And after she did, you know,
you can kind of see her a little bit deflated
of like, Okay, I've achieved my dream. Um, I'm not
I'm famous, but I'm not rich and I'm not getting
paid the same as mail boxers, who I am just
(07:46):
as good as. And there's this meeting that she has
in the documentary with representatives from USA Boxing where yeah,
the rep is like, you know, um, you just uh
you need to stop saying how you know how much
you enjoy beating people up? And the look on Claressa's
(08:07):
face is just like incredulous, and she just sort of
shakes her head and says, yeah, I mean, I guess
I can reward that, but it frustrates her because, you know,
after this meeting is over, she says, it's not about money,
it's about getting what you deserve. It's about respecting me
being a woman, respect me being black, and respect me
(08:27):
as an athlete who represented the United States. Um. And
I am glad to see that in the intervening years
she has attracted bigger endorsement deals. UM. But I am
so rooting for her to get that second gold, you know, um,
because I want I want everything for for Claressa. I
want her to to achieve her dream not only of
(08:50):
getting that second gold, but also as she talks about
wanting to take her family out of Flint, that's all
she wants. And even I mean, I think she's a
great figure for girls, younger girls to be aware of,
even if those younger girls are not boxing fans or
even sports fans, because she is a great example of
(09:11):
someone who will not take no for an answer. She's
got this great quote where she says, uh, they said
boxing was a manned sport. That was not the right
reason to tell me not to box. In other words,
she just sees it as one more thing that she
will definitely overcome. It's a driving factor. Oh you're gonna
tell me that this isn't for girls? Will let me
show you? I mean, And I'm waiting to for her
(09:34):
biopic because I mean it should be her. Her life
is like reading like a movie at this point, and
I just keep imagining her at eleven years old, just
walking into a boxing gym, like comparing like myself had
eleven years old, Like just how on a very basic level,
just how brave that is? Yeah, what was I doing
(09:56):
at eleven? I was just wearing the pleated shorts that
my mother had bought me at J. C. Penny's and
probably still playing by myself in the basement. I'm imagining
you shadow boxing and you're real. Get a short now.
Don't forget the sleeveless, collared, button up plaid shirt that
I wore tucked into them. I love it. Do you
(10:17):
think though, that the USA team's lightweight Olympic contender, MICHAELA.
Meyer ever gets tired of always hearing about her middleweight
team made up Claressa Shields, because they're like the the
only two women who were representing the US in boxing
at the Olympics. Well, my hope is that they support
(10:39):
each other. But I mean, yeah, Michaela's got a great
story too. She when she was a teenager, she was
struggling in school. Wasn't wasn't buckling down, you know, it
was kind of hopping around to a couple different schools.
And at seventeen, she walks into a muy tai Jim.
(10:59):
Not my tai jim, that's something completely different. That's what
I call the bar, the my your local tikey bar. Yeah. Um, yeah,
she walked into this Mui tai jim, starts training, realizes
that it's for her, that this activity, the sport is
for her, and it actually helps her then buckle down
(11:21):
at school and succeed. Yeah, it helps her focus. And
as soon as she finds out that the Olympics was
going to include women's boxing for the first time, that
became her goal. And she didn't make it to London,
but now she's going to Rio. But the big question
then is for for both Michaela and Claressa, after their
(11:45):
amateur and Olympic careers are over, can they turn pro
Because there aren't that many opportunities as you might imagine
for female boxers. Yeah, you've basically got to join up
with UFC or start competing as an m M A
fighter like a Rhonda Rousy for instance, who did win
the bronze in judo in But again here we have
(12:09):
Claris the Shields having none of this disinterest in uh
in women's boxing. She was having none of the lack
of opportunities. And she was quoted in an NBC article saying,
whichever promoter takes on women's boxing is going to be
a very wealthy man. Because that's the issue a lot
of times is that it's not that people will never
(12:32):
be interested in women's boxing, it's that traditionally they haven't
tuned in and if promoters can't make money off of something,
they're not going to put their money into it. And
what you are seeing though, is with women like Rhonda
Rousey who are bringing a lot of attention to mixed
martial arts and fighting in general, you are getting more
(12:56):
people who are saying, oh, well, this is interesting to walk,
whtch I really enjoy watching this and they're putting their
money where they're boxing. Opinions are I don't, I don't know.
Their fandom is sure, well, and the thing is it's
not just you know, Ronda Rousey who is bringing huge
ratings for the UFC, it's pretty much all of their
(13:16):
female fights. And so these boxers are looking to you know,
UFC and m m A saying hey, if if they
can do it, we can do this with boxing, or
the option is, you know, they will just transition into
m m A. I mean, you have someone like MICHAELA
who already has a white tie background. UM. And I
(13:38):
did like, though, how Claressa Shields said, listen, Ronda Rousey
out a bronze, I have a goal. Yeah, like come
on people, Well yeah, and and well I think it
was even better than that, because it was something like, uh,
you know, she has a bronze and I have a gold.
You know what I'm saying, Like she's clearly like there's
(13:58):
a little bit of shade there, of course. Yeah, but
it's like, I mean, if she, if she can do
that at that level, imagine just imagine what what I
can do. So it'll be interesting to see not only
how they perform in the Olympics fingers crossed Shields wins
her second gold, um, but also to see what happens
(14:18):
afterwards because I have a feeling that Shields at twenty one,
especially if she wins the second gold, will probably turn
pro and go for that UM. But I don't think
that women's Olympic boxing is nearly as controversial this year,
in this Summer Olympics as it was in and partly
(14:44):
because of Clarissa Shields, partly because she was such a sensation. Yeah,
and I mean, I people get used to stuff. I mean,
I'm sure there are people this year who, especially younger viewers,
who just probably assumed that women's boxing has always been
a part of the Olympics. I'm sure there are people
out there who take it for granted that women have
had to fight to get included in the Olympics. Yeah,
(15:08):
I mean you're thinking about just the fact that, you know,
like you said, people get used to stuff. It's like
back in the day, people had to get used to
women just driving, riding and train women voting, women running,
I mean, and I mean women wearing pants. Yeah, women
running marathons is relatively new for for the Olympics, and
(15:32):
only the eighties or nineties, and it is funny. Take
it from us. Kristen and I have spoken to audiences
of very young girls and have watched as the looks
on their faces turned to shock and awe as we
describe the history of things that they are used to
seeing that weren't a possibility a hundred years ago. And
(15:55):
so yeah, I think but that's good. I think people
should be used to women in the Olympics. Absolutely. Um.
There are still two primary differences between men's and women's
boxing at the Olympics. Uh. Mainly you will notice that
women still wear headgear, although that might change in um.
(16:16):
And while the dudes fight three four minute rounds, the
women fight for two minute rounds. That's not a lot
of time to bring down your opponent, to mess somebody up.
But I tell you what, I would not want to
go four rounds, okay with any of the women who
will be fighting in the Olympics. But just imagining going
four rounds with Cloris's shields, I would just I would
(16:39):
immediately just get on the floor and ball up. Well,
you know, I mean boxing is not your thing, and
that's fine. Maybe you're more of the type of gymnasts
that uses the ribbons. Oh my god, did you know
that As a child I had a ribbon dancer, Caroline,
and I pretended to be a rhythmic gymnasts. Ribbon Dan
(17:00):
so as in the thing, the one thing, although I
had one listeners. Uh, I made my own. Oh it
was subpar. It was really just a branch. The ribbon
was too heavy. Um. But yeah, you are absolutely right.
I was all about rhythmic gymnastics. Hey, I just said that.
(17:22):
I didn't realize it's true. I checked out piles and
piles of books from the library. I trained myself to
be able to do splits. I was serious about it.
This is what you get to do when you're homeschooled.
I've never been an individual who can do a split.
Never anyway, Well, if you go get some books at
your library, um, we'll get diagrams splits. Okay, just just
(17:46):
work on it, you know. But we are going to
be re airing this episode on the history of women's
boxing and like we said earlier, why it took so
long for boxing to become a women's Olympic sport um,
And and also just like all of these kind of
(18:07):
side debates that have popped up um in the meantime
of people wondering like should they be required to wear skirts?
Probably for sure. Yeah, and that's true, and we're not
talking about women's boxing in like the nineteen tins, we're
talking about women's boxing in in the two thousand's wondering
about skirts. Can you imagine Clarissa going out there in
like a tennis outfit? No, no, Serena Williams. Yes, she
(18:34):
can do anything she wants wearing anything. Yeah. We also
mentioned people's fears about whether boxing is dangerous for women's boobs,
like hitting the boobs. Yeah, well, I mean getting punched
in the boob. It hurts, it does. Have you ever
run into a door frame so many times? But see
I'm really flat chested, so usually my knees would hit
(18:54):
before my bo Well, you know, I gotta say, I'm
sure it's also not pleasant to to. Well, I'm I
guess I'm glad boxers don't use their knees. Question mark.
I don't know what to say, or that there aren't
door for doors door frames on boxing in boxing rings.
My coordination is so bad? Well, why don't we travel
(19:18):
back in time? Four years? I know? Can you believe it?
I really can? Kristen like side note, this summer is
the fifth anniversary of me joining you on the podcast.
Oh my god, And so it's funny to think that
we did this boxing episode four entire years ago. It
doesn't feel like that long ago. It does not at all.
(19:38):
And I started listening back to the episode, expecting us
to sound like little babies, like welcome to stuff. Ma'm
never note, but its sounded exactly the same. And uh,
now I need to just find out what the traditional
five year anniversary gift is, like pewter or something. I
gotta get you, like some some uter headphones, microphone to
(20:02):
commemorate my neck. It's just worn down. I hope it's paper.
I know paper is one of the years. And if
it's paper, somebody's getting some Lisa Franks station. Oh God,
just saying. So we're gonna take a quick break and
then we come back. We're going to hop in our
podcast time machine and travel back to two thousand and
twelve to learn some fascinating history about this highly controversial
(20:28):
sport of women's boxing. So back in two thousand nine,
Krypton the IOC, the International Olympic Committee made the decision
to add women's boxing to this year's London Summer Olympic Games.
(20:50):
And before this it had been the only sport reserve
for men. So now we're all equal a story over
kind of kind well okay, yeah, not really. There actually
is a debate raging currently about women's boxing and basically,
should women engage in a sport whose main purpose is
to inflict a damage on the opponent and that we
(21:11):
might even possibly knock them unconscious. That does not sound
very ladylike Caroline, which it sure doesn't. We might sweat,
how what I know it shouldn't be allowed. Well one
one note though, one historical note. Women have boxed at
the Olympics before, one other time at the nineteen o
(21:33):
four St. Louis Games, which was the first time that
the men's boxing debut at the Olympics, but women's boxing
was relegated to a display event. Well they were actually
both display events. But after the display event they were like, hey, men,
come on and the women, the women just just keeping
the little sideshow act that you are. Could you go
make us some sandwiches? Exactly? But it actually it has
(21:57):
so much more history or beyond uh nineteen o four.
Back in the seventeen twenties, the first staged women's prize
fights took place. This was in in England and in
addition to punching and kicking, women could mall and scratch
their opponents, so it was more like just like a
cat fight in the ring instead of true boxing. And
(22:19):
then female prize fighting happened in eighteenth and nineteenth century
European fair grounds and an exhibition halls. But then in
the nineteenth century also people started clamping down on the sport.
They were very uncomfortable was seeing two women in the ring,
and for that reason it was prohibited in many US
(22:40):
states and in Europe, and it was officially banned in Britain,
for instance, in eighteen eighty. But that didn't hold back
Barbara Buttrick, a Yorkshire born fighter who was one of
the those early renegades. And let's not forget in eighteen
seventy six, Nell Saunders and Rose Harland got in the
(23:03):
rank and duked it out over a silver butter dish
because you know what a women need with a copper
medal um and what is considered the first women's match
in the US. So they probably maybe inspired Ms Buttrick, Yeah,
because then in the late fifties and nine seven to
be precise, Barbara became the first female boxing license holder
(23:26):
UM and she was in Dallas, Texas, and she fought
the second female boxing license holder, Phillis Coogler, for the
first women's World championship. And I think it's worth pointing
out that that Barbara was just ninety eight pounds and
four ft eleven. She was a little step fire tiny. Yeah.
So then fast forward to and women's amateur boxing is
(23:47):
finally integrated into the rules of the US amateur boxing program,
and then is a pretty huge year for women's boxing
because of a bout between Christie Martin and dear Dreg
Gogerdy and Christie Martin one and she became the face
of women's boxing and actually made it onto the cover
(24:08):
of Sports Illustrated, thus marking the birth of modern professional
women's boxing in the US. But the funny thing is,
if you go back and read that Sports Illustrated story
interviewing Martin, she could not give a hoot about women's boxing.
She liked boxing, but women, no, no, no, she says,
(24:31):
I'm not out to make a statement about women in
boxing or even women in sports. I'm not trying to
put women in the forefront. And I don't even think
this fascination with women in the ring has much to
do with that. This is about Christy Martin. Well, I mean, yeah,
quite a quite a fighting spirit there, um, But the
whole profile of her just hammers home the thing of oh, yeah,
(24:55):
she's she's a boxer, so in that way in the ring,
she's you know, knocking out all these stereotypes. But at
home she's married to her coach and she really likes
to cook him dinner. For instance, include this quote from
her saying, if my house is on fire, I want
Mike Tyson carrying me out, not Christy Martin. M so
(25:16):
well so big first four professional women's boxing, but Christie
Martin could care less. And then in we have the
first European Cup for women's boxing in the first World
Championship for women is held not too long ago, just
in two thousand one. Yeah, and speaking of there was
(25:36):
this New York Times article talking about how the trend
in women's boxing wasn't so much that all these women
were coming coming out of the woodwork to compete and
go pro, so that they were all coming to Jim's
to get into shape. Right, But through this whole exercise trend,
actually a lot of the women who went into exercise
came out champions um. And that in that same New
(25:58):
York Times article, Well, they interviewed one of the coaches
who pointed out some gender differences among some boxers. Uh.
He told The Times that women are easier to train
than men because they are more relaxed and not as macho.
But then he goes on to point out how women
boxers do have more fragile psyches. Quote, you can't scream
(26:21):
at them like you would with a man, even though
sometimes I really want to those trouble making women. Um.
One of the women who went into a gym, This
was I Believe in in New York, Long Island Baby
with Kathy Collins, who is originally from Georgia. She dropped
a hundred one pounds in the course of her very
strict exercise regiment and then turned pro. She won the
(26:42):
first women's pro boxing match ever held in Madison Square
Garden and her fights have been on pay per view
and ESPN and USA networks, and she she loves the
sport and she said that it really gives you a
sense of strength and a greater sense of self. But
here's here's the latest con troversy that has come up.
Because we'll get back to the Olympic stuff in a second.
(27:04):
But November two thousand and eleven, we've just been we've
been so liperaturely making these strides, getting more women in
the ring, toughening up, going into those those all male gyms,
not given a hoot, No hoots given, no hoots given.
And then in November of last year, the Amateur International
Boxing Association this brilliant idea that female boxers should put
(27:32):
on skirts. Why not? They're women, right, they should be
wearing skirts. Maybe they should be barefoot in the ring too. Well.
Their argument was, how else are you going to be
able to tell if you're if you flip on a
on a boxing match, how else can you tell if
it's a woman up there? But a question that that
I had, and when I first I said out why
I said it out loud when I read this, and
(27:54):
actually a bunch of people commenting on the articles about
this topic said the same thing. Why is it so
important to distinguish female boxers from mail boxers when you're
watching it on TV or whether you know, even if
you're a spectator in the arena. Is it not just
about the boxing? And so all these issues come up
about discomfort with the lack of gender division or obvious
(28:14):
gender division, UM discomfort with women entering a traditionally male
dominated sport. Following this, this announcement, the skirt fiasco UM
the they held the European Championships in Rotterdam and only
two nations, Poland and Romania, decided to have their boxers
(28:34):
wear the skirts in the ring. UM and the Polish
coach told the BBC. By wearing skirts, in my opinion,
it gives a good impression, a womanly impression. Wearing shorts
is not a good way for women boxers to dress.
So it's ridiculous there in that statement, right, and then
UM on the heels of all these complaints, not only
(28:56):
from female boxers who are like, what, I'm not going
to wear a many skirt and also outraged from the public,
the president of the Amateur International Boxing Association Association said,
after we hear about its comfort and how easy it
is to compete in the uniform, it may be compulsory.
So he's he's trying to argue that skirts are just
an easy, breezy kind of thing that you could just
(29:18):
toss on and go just hop into the ring. No
need for sure. It sounds like a makeup ad UM. Yeah, well,
and a B A or excuse me, a I B.
A spokesman recently came out and said that, oh, well,
we never we never intended to make the mandatory after
the President had said that they could become compulsory depending
on people's reactions to them. And on February thirteenth of
(29:39):
this year, boxer Tyresha Douglas was quoted by Sports Illustrated
as saying, we're women and women should be wearing a
woman's uniform. I mean, women can wear shorts, but it's boxing.
We need to look more feminine under the headgear. You
don't know if it's a man or a woman. If
we don't have boobs, we're women and we need to
let people know we're women because you can't tell. But
not surprisingly, tyre show was very much in the minority.
(30:03):
There have not only been some amateur boxers who have
headed up a change dot org petition to get the
Amateur International Boxing Association to abandon this skirt plan um,
others have just spoken out in the press against it.
Because this decision um has followed quickly on the heels
(30:23):
of the trials for the Olympics, so there's been all
of this focus on women's boxing lately, and the skirt
issue keeps coming up, and so far, Torisia Douglas is
the only person I've heard who is really outright in favor.
I found well world champion fighter Mary Calm. She's from India.
She compared female fighters to female competitors in sports like
(30:46):
tennis and wear gender specific uniforms. But I mean, I
think it's stupid and tennis, you know why, I mean,
why should a female athlete have to wear skirt? Why
can't she just wear what is comfortable or what her
coach wants her to? You know what did it matter?
It just seems with something like boxing too, skirts just don't.
(31:07):
It's clearly a thing to feminize these athletes, and it's not.
It's not that necessary. For instance, Gara Hodge over at
Gender Focus put it very well when she said, um,
the attitude is clearly persisting today. This idea of um
a team of foxes and not boxes, which was a
quote from the nineteen sixty U S women's track coach
(31:29):
Um and they. She says that it's clearly persisting today
as many female professional athletes report feeling pressured to act
and look feminine outside of sport. In order to compensate
for their masculine strength. And what better segue than into
the gender dynamics of boxing, because according to some sports scholars,
(31:52):
boxing is the ultimate egalitarian sport if you're a guy,
because once you get up in the ring, it doesn't
matter your class, your race, all your weight and size
obviously will will play a role. But once you're in
the ring, all all of that goes away, and you
have one opponent and one mission and that is to
(32:13):
take him down. But when you toss a woman in there,
everything goes topsy turvy, right. Um. Some researchers went to
an Australian boxing gym and talked to not to a
bunch of people, but really focused on interviews with three
men and three women at this gym. And this was
a study in qualitative sociology from Fall two thousand four
(32:33):
called Suffragettes and Satin Shorts Gender and Competitive Boxing, And
it was interesting. They pointed out that competitive boxing can
be studied productively as a paradoxical gender regime that simultaneously
enables and constraints how women quote unquote do gender. Um.
There was one scholar that they quoted um as saying
(32:55):
raw aggression is thought to be the province of men,
as nurturing is the fuel your province of women. The
female boxer violates the stereotype and cannot be taken seriously.
She has parody, she has cartooned. She is monstrous. Yeah.
One guy the researcher talked to said, boxing isn't a
female sport. Women are feminine. It's in the society. It's
(33:17):
probably not right. They've got breasts that are going to
get whacked. Although they have done research on whether or
not female boxing endangers are breasts, uh, specifically whether or
not it could um uh cause breast cancer down the road.
No risk. Your breasts are safe. Yeah, boxing is pretty
it's a pretty safe sport. But the very fact that
(33:39):
that safety issue is one of the first things that
people bring up when they talk about women's boxing as
opposed to men's boxing, which we have you know, just
accepted as yes, a little bit more more violent and
aggressive sport. But it's not, I mean, it's not something
that is on the forefront of our minds, it seems like.
And that's one of the reasons why these uh, this
(34:01):
gender issue with boxing is really fascinating because people are
so uncomfortable with the idea of women punching at each other, right,
and some of the guys in the gym that these
researchers want to we're just that they were. They were
totally uncomfortable with women who came into the gym on
a regular basis. It's one thing if maybe you bring
your your steady girlfriend or your wife in there, somebody
(34:22):
who's not going to try to distract you with her
her feminine wiles. But yeah, for the most part, women
in these boxing gyms were considered to be distracting or
weakening to men. Well, and I think that this is
um one of the reasons why this Olympic Women's boxing
landmark is is such a good thing, not just because
it's opening up that final sport to women, but because
(34:46):
a lot of the coverage that I've seen of the
boxing trials, which are now over, has been really positive.
You know, it's really painting these these women as athletes
is really strong and diverse and compelling, not terrifying and
monstrous and parodies of themselves. Yeah, exactly, they're just strong athletes. Well,
(35:08):
with that said, should we look at who the winners
of the boxing trials are? Absolutely absolutely starting off with
Marlon Esparza. She's the flyweight. She actually had to gain
six pounds to fit into to fit her small frame
into the really strict weight classes that the Olympic Committee approved,
so they only approved weight three weight class divisions for
(35:31):
a hundred and twelve pounds, one thirty two and one
sixty five, which has actually caused a lot of concern
about women either gaining too much, losing too much, or
dropping out. A Sparsa, like I said, gained six pounds
and she postponed college because she had her sight set
on the Olympics, and coincidentally, her last bout happened to
be against Terresha Douglas, who we mentioned earlier, who was
(35:54):
pro skirts pro skirt just just thrown out well. In
the light eight division, we have Queen Underwood, who was
a favorite going into the trials, and then there's also
Clarissa Shields who is the middleweight. Caroline Clarissa Shields is
sixteen years old. That's amazing. Yeah, she's a high school
(36:15):
junior from Flint, Michigan, who started boxing at the age
of eleven to make her imprisoned father proud. Yeah, there
is a really touching NPR story about um about shields
and her her boxing journey if you want to give
it a lesson, um. But the thing is, the journey
does not stop for these three women. Even though they
made it through the trials, they now have to go
(36:36):
on to the World Championships in China where they have
to finish in the top eight of their weight category
in order to qualify for the full Olympic event in London.
So three women to pull for. And you pointed out
that they, you know, the IOC boiled it down to
the three weight classes for men's boxing, they've got ten. Yeah. Uh.
(36:58):
And coach Christie Halbert said that about three thousand women
register as amateur boxers in the US in ten weight classes,
and she said that keeps the sports safe and to
make it fair, to celebrate the diversity of the human body.
And so the Amateur International Boxing Association is actually lobbying
the IOC to get more women into the Olympics. There's
(37:18):
also one quote from Queen Underwood's coach Bashir Abdullah that
I wanted to point out because it fits so nicely
in our conversation about gender and boxing, because initially he
was very uncomfortable with the idea of coaching a female boxer,
which kind of reminds me of Clint Eastwood, a million
dollar baby um. And he said, I didn't want to
(37:39):
see women in this sport, which was based on his
religious beliefs, but he also wanted to keep his job
as a boxing coach with the U. S. Army, so
he adapted when the Army's World Class Athlete program accepted women,
and he was very glad that he did. And he
told NPR, there are great athletes in this women's sport.
They're more focused, they're coachable, they're more determined, and they're
(38:01):
more disciplined than mail boxers, right, which echoes what trainer
Tom Malloy said that you mentioned earlier that women are
better at learning out to box, I guess, although malloy
did follow it up with how we might cry if
you if you yelled us too hard. Fragile. We're fragile,
fragile people. Well, somebody else talking about Queen Underwood that
I like this quote US boxing coaches that Joe Zanders
(38:24):
was talking about her and said, Queen can hurt you.
Queen is a killer. She has a nice doll like smile.
But you can't take that seriously because she has some
dog in her and she will get after you. It's
great embodying, you know, both ends of those, uh, that
that gender dichotomy that everybody harps on so often. You know,
Queen Underwood man, she's not gonna mount. And speaking of knockouts,
(38:48):
we have talked about, you know, the violence associated with boxing.
But the I a b A, the same association that
wants to put these women in skirts. According to fifteen
years of data, they have shown that women's Olympic style
boxing is safer than men's and compared to other sports,
women's boxing is incredibly safe. Yeah, and it has a
(39:11):
very low rate of concussions and hand injuries and pretty
much no rate at all of lower extremity injury. And
not to mention that the female athlete has a more
flexible neck, less shoulder and neck musculature, and less upper
body strength than the male athlete, which means she might
not pack as hard of a punch, but she might
(39:32):
take one a little bit better than the dudes. Um.
And just to hammer home the point of the safety
of women's boxing, according to study from Australia, it is
much safer than pony riding, polo touch football, even cricket
and soccer. Okay, well there you go. But um, that's
(39:56):
study by the a I b. A actually pointed out
that you know, and what we already know this that
boxing is an excellent workout. That's why all those people
are going to boxing gyms to try to get fit.
For the average one forty pound woman, it burns nearly
eight hundred calories per hour compared with riding a stationary
bike at six hundred and fifty calories per hour and
(40:16):
jogging at nine hundred. But women are protected. They wear
leather growing protector, they wear hard plastic cups inserted into
a sports bra, and they wear, depending on the weight,
that either were eight ounce gloves for women up two
hundred forty pounds or ten ounce gloves for the heavier women.
And of course amateurs wear headgear two. So they're in
a safe sport, they're getting fit, and they're they're protecting
(40:38):
themselves at the same time. But the one big restriction
women out there who are thinking about boxing, if you
are pregnant, you are not allowed to box, although there
was a pregnant curler in the last Olympics. But I
guess you know, curling is a pretty low intensity, sport,
low contact. If I remember seeing there was it was
(40:59):
like a big flashy headline like pregnant olympian, Oh she's curling.
Nothing against curlers out there were pregnant women, were pregnant curlers.
We like all of these people. But pregnant boxers, now,
that is just a risk that should not be taken.
Right and now that we're four years in the future,
(41:20):
we're we're in Um, I don't know. I how do
you feel about pregnant women boxing four years down the road?
Still I stand by what we said, UM, that that
pregnant women boxing probably isn't a smart idea, although we
have so many active listeners who do all sorts of
(41:42):
incredible things. Um And if there's anyone listening who has
been pregnant in box or knows of a pregnant boxer,
or knows that it's like fine to box about pregnant,
I would love to hear from you. Yeah, this is
something we don't know. Yeah, it just seems like wouldn't
be a good idea. You know, you avoid sushi, soft cheeses,
(42:04):
and boxing rings, that's what that's what you do when
you're pregnant, right, I think so obviously I've never been pregnant.
Maybe if they just hit you in the face. Yeah,
it's like eyes up here, eyes and gloves up here.
You have like a really big you have to wear
one of those um, you know, those big puffy bouncy suits,
(42:24):
but just around like your billy, or you can just
each wear an inner tube. There you go. Yeah. Um.
And I wish I could go back and tell you
and me of two thousand twelve that Clarissa won the
gold and that she's back, She's back in action. But
it's almost like we're traveling back in time to tell
(42:45):
our listeners that, yes, this is true, sort of something
like that. I don't know how time works. I hear
it's a circle, a flat circle. It is a flat circle.
That Matthew McConaughey teach that to us. Yeah, that's that's
what I learned. So are you gonna be watching women's boxing? Yes?
(43:05):
And the gymnastics with the ribbon? Oh yes, rhythmic gymnastic
and I'll think of you. Ribbon ribbon is a dance.
I like, that's gonna be my version of that song.
And that's what I'm gonna sing as I'm watching the
rhythmic gymnastics. Please Facebook live that when it happens. Listeners, Now,
we want to hear from you. Are you a fan
(43:27):
of boxing? What do you think about the women's Olympic
boxing that's been happening and the whole issue of them
turning pro and just generally are you excited about watching
ladies in the Olympics. Mom Stuff at how stuff works
dot com is our email address. You can also tweet
us at mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook, and
(43:50):
we've got a couple of messages to share with you
when we come right back from a quick break. Your
to do list can seem totally out of control some days,
so much to do and so little time. But there's
one thing that you can totally scratch off that to
do list, and that is going to the post office.
Thanks to stamps dot com, they let you buy and
(44:11):
print official US postage right from your own computer and printer,
and they'll send you a digital scale that automatically calculates
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and any class of mail. And right now you can
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(44:34):
and a digital scale. So don't wait. Go to stamps
dot com before you do anything else. Click on the
microphone at the top of the homepage and type in
stuff that's stamps dot com. Enter stuff, and now back
to the show. Well, I have a semi related letter
(44:55):
from Kendall. She was responding to our girls who lift
up pisode from a ways back. She says, thank you
so so much for calling attention to this issue. I
started lifting about two years ago and it's been one
of the best things I've done for my body. I've
always been a small girl with a petite frame, so
I was worried about bulking up and putting on a
lot of size. And yes, ladies who have that fear,
(45:18):
you might see that number of on the scale fluctuate
up and down, but that's because muscles really do way
more than fat. I did put on a little muscle bulk.
I had to go up a size and pants, but
I love my muscles and how crazy strong I am.
For example, my boyfriend who also lives and I have
been through a few moves and we didn't need to
hire a crew or even ask friends to help. We
(45:40):
did it ourselves. Jeez, Kendall, I should have called you
when I moved a couple of weeks ago. My energy
level is outrageous. It's helped with my insomnia, posture, and
overall confidence. Cheese. That sounds awesome, Okay. She goes on
to say there is still a great amount of misconception
about lifting. Even my doctor made a comment that my
(46:01):
weight was going up over the last few years, and
that was after we discussed what I do for exercise.
I reminded her that I lift weights, but she didn't
back down from her comment, and I'm ashamed to admit
I had a moment of not feeling so great about myself.
But I also have days when someone tells me how
muscular I look, and I feel like a superhero. The
biggest problem I've had with lifting is the attitude I
(46:23):
get from dudes at the gym. It takes some confidence
to walk up to the weights, especially if you're being
stared at. But worse than that is a bunch of
dudes hogging the weight area. I can't tell you how
many times some guy has stolen the bench I'm standing
near before I can use it because surely a girl
wouldn't be using that. It's infuriating. So I want to
(46:43):
encourage all the lifting or soon to be lifting ladies
out there to claim what's yours. She put that in italics.
Don't let a bro dude bully you around because he
thinks chicks don't lift. If someone takes something you're using,
say something. And if they're hogging a rack or a
ben to ask them if they're done, because you want
to use it. And no, you don't need their help. Alright, Kendall,
(47:08):
thanks for the advice. Well, I've got a letter here
from Caroline about our Women Tattoos Too, part specifically correcting
us on our misrepresentation of Kat Vonde and I will
say we've got a couple of letters about this. So
Caroline helpfully informs us that while yes, Cat has gained
(47:30):
a lot of popularity from her shows, but she is
not just a pretty face on TV. Kat is widely
regarded as one of the most skilled tattoosts in the
business and is known for her extremely realistic portraits, for
which many consider her the best in that field. Along
with this, Kat opened up one of the most successful
tattoo shops in the country high voltage tattoo, which always
(47:52):
has a long waiting list of clients, and she often
brings an artist from around the world to do month
long work periods in order to expose the local community
to the great tattoo is around the world. She's also
used her fame for numerous social justice campaigns, most notably
her fight for animal rights. There are few, if any
female tattoos who have reached this level of success and recognition,
(48:13):
and I'm really disappointed that you didn't give her the
credit that she deserves her becoming a leading lady in
a male dominated field. And she goes on to say,
in response to your request for lady tattoo is suggestions
for a bird tattoo. Not sure what specific style you're
going for, but definitely keep Cat in mind if you
want a realistic tattoo in black and white. Apparently she's
(48:34):
one of the nicest people you'll ever meet and has
done interviews while giving tattoos. What a great podcast that
would make, Oh, Caroline, I absolutely agree, and we stand
corrected on Cat Bondie, although I do think we mentioned
that she is super talented. Um, but yeah, we were
were by no means were experts on cat Bondie's So
(48:56):
thank you to Caroline and other listeners who have filled
us in what a rad lady she is and if
you've got rad ladies to tell us about her, just
thoughts you want to send our way. Mom Stuff at
how stuff works dot com is our email address and
for links to all of our social media as well
as all of our blogs, videos and podcasts with our sources.
(49:18):
So you can learn more about women's boxing, head on
over to stuff Mom Never Told You dot com. For
more on this and thousands of other topics, visit how
stuff works dot com
Welcome to stuff Mom never told you. From House top
works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm
Kristen and I'm Caroline. And when we're recording this, we
are one day away from the Rio Games, the two
(00:24):
thousand sixteen Summer Olympics. So exciting. I actually, you know,
I I'm I've never been a sports fan. I'm just
gonna go ahead and I myself. I know, sucker, you
wipe that look off your face, conger, I'm smiling. Yeah,
uh huh um. But I I do love the excitement
(00:46):
and the community feeling and the electricity that comes from
watching the Olympics. Um well, hopefully not electricity anywhere near
the swimmers, but electricity in your bones, the feeling that
you it watching all of these people, these patriotic athletes
competing to win the gold. Yeah. And this year I'm
(01:07):
going to be watching boxing. And I'll tell you what, Caroline,
I never watch boxing ever. It makes me uncomfortable to
watch a professional boxing match. I don't like it. It
makes me nervous. So there's somehow going to like jump
through the TV screen and like break my coffee table.
So you're not a fan of conflict, I get it.
(01:29):
It's true, but I am a huge fan of the
USA middleweight favorite Claressa Shields. Oh she's got a great story.
She's amazing. I was just telling Kristen before we came
into the studio that I would watch the movie of
Claressa Shields from Flint, Michigan training with her coach Billy Walsh,
(01:55):
who's this Irish dude who's molded all of these really
successful amateur teams, and he and Claressa totally budded heads.
There's this great article that we read about, you know,
Clarissa being successful and the top of her game and
also incredibly hardheaded. And here comes this new coach of hers,
(02:16):
you know, telling her how to improve and and she
just they were not see an eye to eye. Yeah,
but they worked through their conflict and are now a
really well oiled machine. And I love in that NBC
article that Claressa said, you know, it turned out that
he had some things to teach me, and I've got
(02:37):
some things to teach him. And just for a little background,
uh in we were talking about Claressa Shields on stuff
and I've never told you because the London Olympics was
the first time that women's boxing was an event, and CLARESSA.
Shields was seventeen years old at the time, and she
(02:59):
brought whole the gold. Yeah, she did. She made history.
She did make history. And at twenty one she is
still a fierce fighter. Uh. We read an article about
her in the Denver Post and they wrote, no US
amateur is more important than Shields, who built on her
teenage dominance in London with two World championships and a
(03:21):
pan Am Games gold. And they write, now she's a
smooth twenty one year old team leader with major endorsement deals.
And it might seem like not a huge deal or
huge thing to note that she has endorsement deals, but
actually that's pretty important to bring up. Yeah. So there
(03:42):
is a PBS Independent lens documentary on Clarissa Shields called
t REX Her Fight for the Gold, which I highly
recommend watching. Um. It's actually available to stream for free
on the PBS site throughout August UM and it traces
how she went from being an eleven year old kid
(04:05):
in Flint, Michigan, which, if you're not familiar, Flint, Michigan
is just destitute in a lot of ways. Um, A
lot of factory jobs have evaporated, completely evaporated. Of course,
there's a whole water issue um that's been a major
issue in the political campaign here in the US UM
(04:28):
and it's just a bad situation all around. And for Shields,
her father was imprisoned, her mother has had addiction issues
off and on, and at eleven, she shows up to
this boxing gym in Flint, and the coach there, Jason
crutch Field, who ended up being her first coach, spotted
her talent and so he kind of took her under
(04:51):
his wing. But Crushfield had no idea that Sheields wi
get as far as she had because he said that
he didn't agree with female boxing at the time. Time.
But which is a pretty common thing that you hear
from a lot of people in the sports world. Oh yeah,
I mean, and and that's really what this episode that
(05:11):
we're going to play from is focused on, is why
it's taken so long for women's amateur boxing to get
into the Olympics, and and the reasons. You know, the
basic reasons aren't that surprising. Women punching other women violates
like all feminine gender norms. Yeah, I mean, think about
you know, you just mentioned being uncomfortable watching boxing in general,
(05:33):
Like think about people like a Jason crutch Field from earlier,
or just think about your average sports viewer. I'm sure
a lot of people are very uncomfortable with watching two
women essentially just beat each other about the face a
whole bunch. Well, and watching Shields is story unfold in
the t Rex documentary. Uh makes me want to watch her,
(05:57):
you know, bunch other women because uh, I mean that again,
her background is just so incredible. I mean, she really
is living the American dream. Not to get cliche about it,
but it's true. Yeah, And I mean you mentioned wanting
to watch her punch other women in the face, and
it was you know, I mentioned her endorsement deals a
(06:18):
second ago. And it is that very public, open and
almost gleeful discussion of being able to say, successfully punch
other women in the face that made people tell Clarissa
that she needed to perhaps tone her bravado down a
little bit if she did want to secure those deals. Yeah,
because after she won the gold in London, she comes
(06:42):
back to Flint, She's greeted with a hero's welcome. The
local airport was flooded with fans of hers. She had
a whole parade, but she ends up back at home
and she's essentially having to support her family and trying
to figure out, still at seventeen years old, how to
(07:02):
get through high school, whether she wants to stay amateur
and shoot for another gold or whether she wants to
turn pro, and what to do with the kinds of
offers that were immediately coming her way. And it was
really hard for her at first to kind of wrap
(07:22):
her head around the whole what's next, because she had
been so focused on just getting to London and wanting
to get the gold. And after she did, you know,
you can kind of see her a little bit deflated
of like, Okay, I've achieved my dream. Um, I'm not
I'm famous, but I'm not rich and I'm not getting
paid the same as mail boxers, who I am just
(07:46):
as good as. And there's this meeting that she has
in the documentary with representatives from USA Boxing where yeah,
the rep is like, you know, um, you just uh
you need to stop saying how you know how much
you enjoy beating people up? And the look on Claressa's
(08:07):
face is just like incredulous, and she just sort of
shakes her head and says, yeah, I mean, I guess
I can reward that, but it frustrates her because, you know,
after this meeting is over, she says, it's not about money,
it's about getting what you deserve. It's about respecting me
being a woman, respect me being black, and respect me
(08:27):
as an athlete who represented the United States. Um. And
I am glad to see that in the intervening years
she has attracted bigger endorsement deals. UM. But I am
so rooting for her to get that second gold, you know, um,
because I want I want everything for for Claressa. I
want her to to achieve her dream not only of
(08:50):
getting that second gold, but also as she talks about
wanting to take her family out of Flint, that's all
she wants. And even I mean, I think she's a
great figure for girls, younger girls to be aware of,
even if those younger girls are not boxing fans or
even sports fans, because she is a great example of
(09:11):
someone who will not take no for an answer. She's
got this great quote where she says, uh, they said
boxing was a manned sport. That was not the right
reason to tell me not to box. In other words,
she just sees it as one more thing that she
will definitely overcome. It's a driving factor. Oh you're gonna
tell me that this isn't for girls? Will let me
show you? I mean, And I'm waiting to for her
(09:34):
biopic because I mean it should be her. Her life
is like reading like a movie at this point, and
I just keep imagining her at eleven years old, just
walking into a boxing gym, like comparing like myself had
eleven years old, Like just how on a very basic level,
just how brave that is? Yeah, what was I doing
(09:56):
at eleven? I was just wearing the pleated shorts that
my mother had bought me at J. C. Penny's and
probably still playing by myself in the basement. I'm imagining
you shadow boxing and you're real. Get a short now.
Don't forget the sleeveless, collared, button up plaid shirt that
I wore tucked into them. I love it. Do you
(10:17):
think though, that the USA team's lightweight Olympic contender, MICHAELA.
Meyer ever gets tired of always hearing about her middleweight
team made up Claressa Shields, because they're like the the
only two women who were representing the US in boxing
at the Olympics. Well, my hope is that they support
(10:39):
each other. But I mean, yeah, Michaela's got a great
story too. She when she was a teenager, she was
struggling in school. Wasn't wasn't buckling down, you know, it
was kind of hopping around to a couple different schools.
And at seventeen, she walks into a muy tai Jim.
(10:59):
Not my tai jim, that's something completely different. That's what
I call the bar, the my your local tikey bar. Yeah. Um, yeah,
she walked into this Mui tai jim, starts training, realizes
that it's for her, that this activity, the sport is
for her, and it actually helps her then buckle down
(11:21):
at school and succeed. Yeah, it helps her focus. And
as soon as she finds out that the Olympics was
going to include women's boxing for the first time, that
became her goal. And she didn't make it to London,
but now she's going to Rio. But the big question
then is for for both Michaela and Claressa, after their
(11:45):
amateur and Olympic careers are over, can they turn pro
Because there aren't that many opportunities as you might imagine
for female boxers. Yeah, you've basically got to join up
with UFC or start competing as an m M A
fighter like a Rhonda Rousy for instance, who did win
the bronze in judo in But again here we have
(12:09):
Claris the Shields having none of this disinterest in uh
in women's boxing. She was having none of the lack
of opportunities. And she was quoted in an NBC article saying,
whichever promoter takes on women's boxing is going to be
a very wealthy man. Because that's the issue a lot
of times is that it's not that people will never
(12:32):
be interested in women's boxing, it's that traditionally they haven't
tuned in and if promoters can't make money off of something,
they're not going to put their money into it. And
what you are seeing though, is with women like Rhonda
Rousey who are bringing a lot of attention to mixed
martial arts and fighting in general, you are getting more
(12:56):
people who are saying, oh, well, this is interesting to walk,
whtch I really enjoy watching this and they're putting their
money where they're boxing. Opinions are I don't, I don't know.
Their fandom is sure, well, and the thing is it's
not just you know, Ronda Rousey who is bringing huge
ratings for the UFC, it's pretty much all of their
(13:16):
female fights. And so these boxers are looking to you know,
UFC and m m A saying hey, if if they
can do it, we can do this with boxing, or
the option is, you know, they will just transition into
m m A. I mean, you have someone like MICHAELA
who already has a white tie background. UM. And I
(13:38):
did like, though, how Claressa Shields said, listen, Ronda Rousey
out a bronze, I have a goal. Yeah, like come
on people, Well yeah, and and well I think it
was even better than that, because it was something like, uh,
you know, she has a bronze and I have a gold.
You know what I'm saying, Like she's clearly like there's
(13:58):
a little bit of shade there, of course. Yeah, but
it's like, I mean, if she, if she can do
that at that level, imagine just imagine what what I
can do. So it'll be interesting to see not only
how they perform in the Olympics fingers crossed Shields wins
her second gold, um, but also to see what happens
(14:18):
afterwards because I have a feeling that Shields at twenty one,
especially if she wins the second gold, will probably turn
pro and go for that UM. But I don't think
that women's Olympic boxing is nearly as controversial this year,
in this Summer Olympics as it was in and partly
(14:44):
because of Clarissa Shields, partly because she was such a sensation. Yeah,
and I mean, I people get used to stuff. I mean,
I'm sure there are people this year who, especially younger viewers,
who just probably assumed that women's boxing has always been
a part of the Olympics. I'm sure there are people
out there who take it for granted that women have
had to fight to get included in the Olympics. Yeah,
(15:08):
I mean you're thinking about just the fact that, you know,
like you said, people get used to stuff. It's like
back in the day, people had to get used to
women just driving, riding and train women voting, women running,
I mean, and I mean women wearing pants. Yeah, women
running marathons is relatively new for for the Olympics, and
(15:32):
only the eighties or nineties, and it is funny. Take
it from us. Kristen and I have spoken to audiences
of very young girls and have watched as the looks
on their faces turned to shock and awe as we
describe the history of things that they are used to
seeing that weren't a possibility a hundred years ago. And
(15:55):
so yeah, I think but that's good. I think people
should be used to women in the Olympics. Absolutely. Um.
There are still two primary differences between men's and women's
boxing at the Olympics. Uh. Mainly you will notice that
women still wear headgear, although that might change in um.
(16:16):
And while the dudes fight three four minute rounds, the
women fight for two minute rounds. That's not a lot
of time to bring down your opponent, to mess somebody up.
But I tell you what, I would not want to
go four rounds, okay with any of the women who
will be fighting in the Olympics. But just imagining going
four rounds with Cloris's shields, I would just I would
(16:39):
immediately just get on the floor and ball up. Well,
you know, I mean boxing is not your thing, and
that's fine. Maybe you're more of the type of gymnasts
that uses the ribbons. Oh my god, did you know
that As a child I had a ribbon dancer, Caroline,
and I pretended to be a rhythmic gymnasts. Ribbon Dan
(17:00):
so as in the thing, the one thing, although I
had one listeners. Uh, I made my own. Oh it
was subpar. It was really just a branch. The ribbon
was too heavy. Um. But yeah, you are absolutely right.
I was all about rhythmic gymnastics. Hey, I just said that.
(17:22):
I didn't realize it's true. I checked out piles and
piles of books from the library. I trained myself to
be able to do splits. I was serious about it.
This is what you get to do when you're homeschooled.
I've never been an individual who can do a split.
Never anyway, Well, if you go get some books at
your library, um, we'll get diagrams splits. Okay, just just
(17:46):
work on it, you know. But we are going to
be re airing this episode on the history of women's
boxing and like we said earlier, why it took so
long for boxing to become a women's Olympic sport um,
And and also just like all of these kind of
(18:07):
side debates that have popped up um in the meantime
of people wondering like should they be required to wear skirts?
Probably for sure. Yeah, and that's true, and we're not
talking about women's boxing in like the nineteen tins, we're
talking about women's boxing in in the two thousand's wondering
about skirts. Can you imagine Clarissa going out there in
like a tennis outfit? No, no, Serena Williams. Yes, she
(18:34):
can do anything she wants wearing anything. Yeah. We also
mentioned people's fears about whether boxing is dangerous for women's boobs,
like hitting the boobs. Yeah, well, I mean getting punched
in the boob. It hurts, it does. Have you ever
run into a door frame so many times? But see
I'm really flat chested, so usually my knees would hit
(18:54):
before my bo Well, you know, I gotta say, I'm
sure it's also not pleasant to to. Well, I'm I
guess I'm glad boxers don't use their knees. Question mark.
I don't know what to say, or that there aren't
door for doors door frames on boxing in boxing rings.
My coordination is so bad? Well, why don't we travel
(19:18):
back in time? Four years? I know? Can you believe it?
I really can? Kristen like side note, this summer is
the fifth anniversary of me joining you on the podcast.
Oh my god, And so it's funny to think that
we did this boxing episode four entire years ago. It
doesn't feel like that long ago. It does not at all.
(19:38):
And I started listening back to the episode, expecting us
to sound like little babies, like welcome to stuff. Ma'm
never note, but its sounded exactly the same. And uh,
now I need to just find out what the traditional
five year anniversary gift is, like pewter or something. I
gotta get you, like some some uter headphones, microphone to
(20:02):
commemorate my neck. It's just worn down. I hope it's paper.
I know paper is one of the years. And if
it's paper, somebody's getting some Lisa Franks station. Oh God,
just saying. So we're gonna take a quick break and
then we come back. We're going to hop in our
podcast time machine and travel back to two thousand and
twelve to learn some fascinating history about this highly controversial
(20:28):
sport of women's boxing. So back in two thousand nine,
Krypton the IOC, the International Olympic Committee made the decision
to add women's boxing to this year's London Summer Olympic Games.
(20:50):
And before this it had been the only sport reserve
for men. So now we're all equal a story over
kind of kind well okay, yeah, not really. There actually
is a debate raging currently about women's boxing and basically,
should women engage in a sport whose main purpose is
to inflict a damage on the opponent and that we
(21:11):
might even possibly knock them unconscious. That does not sound
very ladylike Caroline, which it sure doesn't. We might sweat,
how what I know it shouldn't be allowed. Well one
one note though, one historical note. Women have boxed at
the Olympics before, one other time at the nineteen o
(21:33):
four St. Louis Games, which was the first time that
the men's boxing debut at the Olympics, but women's boxing
was relegated to a display event. Well they were actually
both display events. But after the display event they were like, hey, men,
come on and the women, the women just just keeping
the little sideshow act that you are. Could you go
make us some sandwiches? Exactly? But it actually it has
(21:57):
so much more history or beyond uh nineteen o four.
Back in the seventeen twenties, the first staged women's prize
fights took place. This was in in England and in
addition to punching and kicking, women could mall and scratch
their opponents, so it was more like just like a
cat fight in the ring instead of true boxing. And
(22:19):
then female prize fighting happened in eighteenth and nineteenth century
European fair grounds and an exhibition halls. But then in
the nineteenth century also people started clamping down on the sport.
They were very uncomfortable was seeing two women in the ring,
and for that reason it was prohibited in many US
(22:40):
states and in Europe, and it was officially banned in Britain,
for instance, in eighteen eighty. But that didn't hold back
Barbara Buttrick, a Yorkshire born fighter who was one of
the those early renegades. And let's not forget in eighteen
seventy six, Nell Saunders and Rose Harland got in the
(23:03):
rank and duked it out over a silver butter dish
because you know what a women need with a copper
medal um and what is considered the first women's match
in the US. So they probably maybe inspired Ms Buttrick, Yeah,
because then in the late fifties and nine seven to
be precise, Barbara became the first female boxing license holder
(23:26):
UM and she was in Dallas, Texas, and she fought
the second female boxing license holder, Phillis Coogler, for the
first women's World championship. And I think it's worth pointing
out that that Barbara was just ninety eight pounds and
four ft eleven. She was a little step fire tiny. Yeah.
So then fast forward to and women's amateur boxing is
(23:47):
finally integrated into the rules of the US amateur boxing program,
and then is a pretty huge year for women's boxing
because of a bout between Christie Martin and dear Dreg
Gogerdy and Christie Martin one and she became the face
of women's boxing and actually made it onto the cover
(24:08):
of Sports Illustrated, thus marking the birth of modern professional
women's boxing in the US. But the funny thing is,
if you go back and read that Sports Illustrated story
interviewing Martin, she could not give a hoot about women's boxing.
She liked boxing, but women, no, no, no, she says,
(24:31):
I'm not out to make a statement about women in
boxing or even women in sports. I'm not trying to
put women in the forefront. And I don't even think
this fascination with women in the ring has much to
do with that. This is about Christy Martin. Well, I mean, yeah,
quite a quite a fighting spirit there, um, But the
whole profile of her just hammers home the thing of oh, yeah,
(24:55):
she's she's a boxer, so in that way in the ring,
she's you know, knocking out all these stereotypes. But at
home she's married to her coach and she really likes
to cook him dinner. For instance, include this quote from
her saying, if my house is on fire, I want
Mike Tyson carrying me out, not Christy Martin. M so
(25:16):
well so big first four professional women's boxing, but Christie
Martin could care less. And then in we have the
first European Cup for women's boxing in the first World
Championship for women is held not too long ago, just
in two thousand one. Yeah, and speaking of there was
(25:36):
this New York Times article talking about how the trend
in women's boxing wasn't so much that all these women
were coming coming out of the woodwork to compete and
go pro, so that they were all coming to Jim's
to get into shape. Right, But through this whole exercise trend,
actually a lot of the women who went into exercise
came out champions um. And that in that same New
(25:58):
York Times article, Well, they interviewed one of the coaches
who pointed out some gender differences among some boxers. Uh.
He told The Times that women are easier to train
than men because they are more relaxed and not as macho.
But then he goes on to point out how women
boxers do have more fragile psyches. Quote, you can't scream
(26:21):
at them like you would with a man, even though
sometimes I really want to those trouble making women. Um.
One of the women who went into a gym, This
was I Believe in in New York, Long Island Baby
with Kathy Collins, who is originally from Georgia. She dropped
a hundred one pounds in the course of her very
strict exercise regiment and then turned pro. She won the
(26:42):
first women's pro boxing match ever held in Madison Square
Garden and her fights have been on pay per view
and ESPN and USA networks, and she she loves the
sport and she said that it really gives you a
sense of strength and a greater sense of self. But
here's here's the latest con troversy that has come up.
Because we'll get back to the Olympic stuff in a second.
(27:04):
But November two thousand and eleven, we've just been we've
been so liperaturely making these strides, getting more women in
the ring, toughening up, going into those those all male gyms,
not given a hoot, No hoots given, no hoots given.
And then in November of last year, the Amateur International
Boxing Association this brilliant idea that female boxers should put
(27:32):
on skirts. Why not? They're women, right, they should be
wearing skirts. Maybe they should be barefoot in the ring too. Well.
Their argument was, how else are you going to be
able to tell if you're if you flip on a
on a boxing match, how else can you tell if
it's a woman up there? But a question that that
I had, and when I first I said out why
I said it out loud when I read this, and
(27:54):
actually a bunch of people commenting on the articles about
this topic said the same thing. Why is it so
important to distinguish female boxers from mail boxers when you're
watching it on TV or whether you know, even if
you're a spectator in the arena. Is it not just
about the boxing? And so all these issues come up
about discomfort with the lack of gender division or obvious
(28:14):
gender division, UM discomfort with women entering a traditionally male
dominated sport. Following this, this announcement, the skirt fiasco UM
the they held the European Championships in Rotterdam and only
two nations, Poland and Romania, decided to have their boxers
(28:34):
wear the skirts in the ring. UM and the Polish
coach told the BBC. By wearing skirts, in my opinion,
it gives a good impression, a womanly impression. Wearing shorts
is not a good way for women boxers to dress.
So it's ridiculous there in that statement, right, and then
UM on the heels of all these complaints, not only
(28:56):
from female boxers who are like, what, I'm not going
to wear a many skirt and also outraged from the public,
the president of the Amateur International Boxing Association Association said,
after we hear about its comfort and how easy it
is to compete in the uniform, it may be compulsory.
So he's he's trying to argue that skirts are just
an easy, breezy kind of thing that you could just
(29:18):
toss on and go just hop into the ring. No
need for sure. It sounds like a makeup ad UM. Yeah, well,
and a B A or excuse me, a I B.
A spokesman recently came out and said that, oh, well,
we never we never intended to make the mandatory after
the President had said that they could become compulsory depending
on people's reactions to them. And on February thirteenth of
(29:39):
this year, boxer Tyresha Douglas was quoted by Sports Illustrated
as saying, we're women and women should be wearing a
woman's uniform. I mean, women can wear shorts, but it's boxing.
We need to look more feminine under the headgear. You
don't know if it's a man or a woman. If
we don't have boobs, we're women and we need to
let people know we're women because you can't tell. But
not surprisingly, tyre show was very much in the minority.
(30:03):
There have not only been some amateur boxers who have
headed up a change dot org petition to get the
Amateur International Boxing Association to abandon this skirt plan um,
others have just spoken out in the press against it.
Because this decision um has followed quickly on the heels
(30:23):
of the trials for the Olympics, so there's been all
of this focus on women's boxing lately, and the skirt
issue keeps coming up, and so far, Torisia Douglas is
the only person I've heard who is really outright in favor.
I found well world champion fighter Mary Calm. She's from India.
She compared female fighters to female competitors in sports like
(30:46):
tennis and wear gender specific uniforms. But I mean, I
think it's stupid and tennis, you know why, I mean,
why should a female athlete have to wear skirt? Why
can't she just wear what is comfortable or what her
coach wants her to? You know what did it matter?
It just seems with something like boxing too, skirts just don't.
(31:07):
It's clearly a thing to feminize these athletes, and it's not.
It's not that necessary. For instance, Gara Hodge over at
Gender Focus put it very well when she said, um,
the attitude is clearly persisting today. This idea of um
a team of foxes and not boxes, which was a
quote from the nineteen sixty U S women's track coach
(31:29):
Um and they. She says that it's clearly persisting today
as many female professional athletes report feeling pressured to act
and look feminine outside of sport. In order to compensate
for their masculine strength. And what better segue than into
the gender dynamics of boxing, because according to some sports scholars,
(31:52):
boxing is the ultimate egalitarian sport if you're a guy,
because once you get up in the ring, it doesn't
matter your class, your race, all your weight and size
obviously will will play a role. But once you're in
the ring, all all of that goes away, and you
have one opponent and one mission and that is to
(32:13):
take him down. But when you toss a woman in there,
everything goes topsy turvy, right. Um. Some researchers went to
an Australian boxing gym and talked to not to a
bunch of people, but really focused on interviews with three
men and three women at this gym. And this was
a study in qualitative sociology from Fall two thousand four
(32:33):
called Suffragettes and Satin Shorts Gender and Competitive Boxing, And
it was interesting. They pointed out that competitive boxing can
be studied productively as a paradoxical gender regime that simultaneously
enables and constraints how women quote unquote do gender. Um.
There was one scholar that they quoted um as saying
(32:55):
raw aggression is thought to be the province of men,
as nurturing is the fuel your province of women. The
female boxer violates the stereotype and cannot be taken seriously.
She has parody, she has cartooned. She is monstrous. Yeah.
One guy the researcher talked to said, boxing isn't a
female sport. Women are feminine. It's in the society. It's
(33:17):
probably not right. They've got breasts that are going to
get whacked. Although they have done research on whether or
not female boxing endangers are breasts, uh, specifically whether or
not it could um uh cause breast cancer down the road.
No risk. Your breasts are safe. Yeah, boxing is pretty
it's a pretty safe sport. But the very fact that
(33:39):
that safety issue is one of the first things that
people bring up when they talk about women's boxing as
opposed to men's boxing, which we have you know, just
accepted as yes, a little bit more more violent and
aggressive sport. But it's not, I mean, it's not something
that is on the forefront of our minds, it seems like.
And that's one of the reasons why these uh, this
(34:01):
gender issue with boxing is really fascinating because people are
so uncomfortable with the idea of women punching at each other, right,
and some of the guys in the gym that these
researchers want to we're just that they were. They were
totally uncomfortable with women who came into the gym on
a regular basis. It's one thing if maybe you bring
your your steady girlfriend or your wife in there, somebody
(34:22):
who's not going to try to distract you with her
her feminine wiles. But yeah, for the most part, women
in these boxing gyms were considered to be distracting or
weakening to men. Well, and I think that this is
um one of the reasons why this Olympic Women's boxing
landmark is is such a good thing, not just because
it's opening up that final sport to women, but because
(34:46):
a lot of the coverage that I've seen of the
boxing trials, which are now over, has been really positive.
You know, it's really painting these these women as athletes
is really strong and diverse and compelling, not terrifying and
monstrous and parodies of themselves. Yeah, exactly, they're just strong athletes. Well,
(35:08):
with that said, should we look at who the winners
of the boxing trials are? Absolutely absolutely starting off with
Marlon Esparza. She's the flyweight. She actually had to gain
six pounds to fit into to fit her small frame
into the really strict weight classes that the Olympic Committee approved,
so they only approved weight three weight class divisions for
(35:31):
a hundred and twelve pounds, one thirty two and one
sixty five, which has actually caused a lot of concern
about women either gaining too much, losing too much, or
dropping out. A Sparsa, like I said, gained six pounds
and she postponed college because she had her sight set
on the Olympics, and coincidentally, her last bout happened to
be against Terresha Douglas, who we mentioned earlier, who was
(35:54):
pro skirts pro skirt just just thrown out well. In
the light eight division, we have Queen Underwood, who was
a favorite going into the trials, and then there's also
Clarissa Shields who is the middleweight. Caroline Clarissa Shields is
sixteen years old. That's amazing. Yeah, she's a high school
(36:15):
junior from Flint, Michigan, who started boxing at the age
of eleven to make her imprisoned father proud. Yeah, there
is a really touching NPR story about um about shields
and her her boxing journey if you want to give
it a lesson, um. But the thing is, the journey
does not stop for these three women. Even though they
made it through the trials, they now have to go
(36:36):
on to the World Championships in China where they have
to finish in the top eight of their weight category
in order to qualify for the full Olympic event in London.
So three women to pull for. And you pointed out
that they, you know, the IOC boiled it down to
the three weight classes for men's boxing, they've got ten. Yeah. Uh.
(36:58):
And coach Christie Halbert said that about three thousand women
register as amateur boxers in the US in ten weight classes,
and she said that keeps the sports safe and to
make it fair, to celebrate the diversity of the human body.
And so the Amateur International Boxing Association is actually lobbying
the IOC to get more women into the Olympics. There's
(37:18):
also one quote from Queen Underwood's coach Bashir Abdullah that
I wanted to point out because it fits so nicely
in our conversation about gender and boxing, because initially he
was very uncomfortable with the idea of coaching a female boxer,
which kind of reminds me of Clint Eastwood, a million
dollar baby um. And he said, I didn't want to
(37:39):
see women in this sport, which was based on his
religious beliefs, but he also wanted to keep his job
as a boxing coach with the U. S. Army, so
he adapted when the Army's World Class Athlete program accepted women,
and he was very glad that he did. And he
told NPR, there are great athletes in this women's sport.
They're more focused, they're coachable, they're more determined, and they're
(38:01):
more disciplined than mail boxers, right, which echoes what trainer
Tom Malloy said that you mentioned earlier that women are
better at learning out to box, I guess, although malloy
did follow it up with how we might cry if
you if you yelled us too hard. Fragile. We're fragile,
fragile people. Well, somebody else talking about Queen Underwood that
I like this quote US boxing coaches that Joe Zanders
(38:24):
was talking about her and said, Queen can hurt you.
Queen is a killer. She has a nice doll like smile.
But you can't take that seriously because she has some
dog in her and she will get after you. It's
great embodying, you know, both ends of those, uh, that
that gender dichotomy that everybody harps on so often. You know,
Queen Underwood man, she's not gonna mount. And speaking of knockouts,
(38:48):
we have talked about, you know, the violence associated with boxing.
But the I a b A, the same association that
wants to put these women in skirts. According to fifteen
years of data, they have shown that women's Olympic style
boxing is safer than men's and compared to other sports,
women's boxing is incredibly safe. Yeah, and it has a
(39:11):
very low rate of concussions and hand injuries and pretty
much no rate at all of lower extremity injury. And
not to mention that the female athlete has a more
flexible neck, less shoulder and neck musculature, and less upper
body strength than the male athlete, which means she might
not pack as hard of a punch, but she might
(39:32):
take one a little bit better than the dudes. Um.
And just to hammer home the point of the safety
of women's boxing, according to study from Australia, it is
much safer than pony riding, polo touch football, even cricket
and soccer. Okay, well there you go. But um, that's
(39:56):
study by the a I b. A actually pointed out
that you know, and what we already know this that
boxing is an excellent workout. That's why all those people
are going to boxing gyms to try to get fit.
For the average one forty pound woman, it burns nearly
eight hundred calories per hour compared with riding a stationary
bike at six hundred and fifty calories per hour and
(40:16):
jogging at nine hundred. But women are protected. They wear
leather growing protector, they wear hard plastic cups inserted into
a sports bra, and they wear, depending on the weight,
that either were eight ounce gloves for women up two
hundred forty pounds or ten ounce gloves for the heavier women.
And of course amateurs wear headgear two. So they're in
a safe sport, they're getting fit, and they're they're protecting
(40:38):
themselves at the same time. But the one big restriction
women out there who are thinking about boxing, if you
are pregnant, you are not allowed to box, although there
was a pregnant curler in the last Olympics. But I
guess you know, curling is a pretty low intensity, sport,
low contact. If I remember seeing there was it was
(40:59):
like a big flashy headline like pregnant olympian, Oh she's curling.
Nothing against curlers out there were pregnant women, were pregnant curlers.
We like all of these people. But pregnant boxers, now,
that is just a risk that should not be taken.
Right and now that we're four years in the future,
(41:20):
we're we're in Um, I don't know. I how do
you feel about pregnant women boxing four years down the road?
Still I stand by what we said, UM, that that
pregnant women boxing probably isn't a smart idea, although we
have so many active listeners who do all sorts of
(41:42):
incredible things. Um And if there's anyone listening who has
been pregnant in box or knows of a pregnant boxer,
or knows that it's like fine to box about pregnant,
I would love to hear from you. Yeah, this is
something we don't know. Yeah, it just seems like wouldn't
be a good idea. You know, you avoid sushi, soft cheeses,
(42:04):
and boxing rings, that's what that's what you do when
you're pregnant, right, I think so obviously I've never been pregnant.
Maybe if they just hit you in the face. Yeah,
it's like eyes up here, eyes and gloves up here.
You have like a really big you have to wear
one of those um, you know, those big puffy bouncy suits,
(42:24):
but just around like your billy, or you can just
each wear an inner tube. There you go. Yeah. Um.
And I wish I could go back and tell you
and me of two thousand twelve that Clarissa won the
gold and that she's back, She's back in action. But
it's almost like we're traveling back in time to tell
(42:45):
our listeners that, yes, this is true, sort of something
like that. I don't know how time works. I hear
it's a circle, a flat circle. It is a flat circle.
That Matthew McConaughey teach that to us. Yeah, that's that's
what I learned. So are you gonna be watching women's boxing? Yes?
(43:05):
And the gymnastics with the ribbon? Oh yes, rhythmic gymnastic
and I'll think of you. Ribbon ribbon is a dance.
I like, that's gonna be my version of that song.
And that's what I'm gonna sing as I'm watching the
rhythmic gymnastics. Please Facebook live that when it happens. Listeners, Now,
we want to hear from you. Are you a fan
(43:27):
of boxing? What do you think about the women's Olympic
boxing that's been happening and the whole issue of them
turning pro and just generally are you excited about watching
ladies in the Olympics. Mom Stuff at how stuff works
dot com is our email address. You can also tweet
us at mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook, and
(43:50):
we've got a couple of messages to share with you
when we come right back from a quick break. Your
to do list can seem totally out of control some days,
so much to do and so little time. But there's
one thing that you can totally scratch off that to
do list, and that is going to the post office.
Thanks to stamps dot com, they let you buy and
(44:11):
print official US postage right from your own computer and printer,
and they'll send you a digital scale that automatically calculates
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(44:34):
and a digital scale. So don't wait. Go to stamps
dot com before you do anything else. Click on the
microphone at the top of the homepage and type in
stuff that's stamps dot com. Enter stuff, and now back
to the show. Well, I have a semi related letter
(44:55):
from Kendall. She was responding to our girls who lift
up pisode from a ways back. She says, thank you
so so much for calling attention to this issue. I
started lifting about two years ago and it's been one
of the best things I've done for my body. I've
always been a small girl with a petite frame, so
I was worried about bulking up and putting on a
lot of size. And yes, ladies who have that fear,
(45:18):
you might see that number of on the scale fluctuate
up and down, but that's because muscles really do way
more than fat. I did put on a little muscle bulk.
I had to go up a size and pants, but
I love my muscles and how crazy strong I am.
For example, my boyfriend who also lives and I have
been through a few moves and we didn't need to
hire a crew or even ask friends to help. We
(45:40):
did it ourselves. Jeez, Kendall, I should have called you
when I moved a couple of weeks ago. My energy
level is outrageous. It's helped with my insomnia, posture, and
overall confidence. Cheese. That sounds awesome, Okay. She goes on
to say there is still a great amount of misconception
about lifting. Even my doctor made a comment that my
(46:01):
weight was going up over the last few years, and
that was after we discussed what I do for exercise.
I reminded her that I lift weights, but she didn't
back down from her comment, and I'm ashamed to admit
I had a moment of not feeling so great about myself.
But I also have days when someone tells me how
muscular I look, and I feel like a superhero. The
biggest problem I've had with lifting is the attitude I
(46:23):
get from dudes at the gym. It takes some confidence
to walk up to the weights, especially if you're being
stared at. But worse than that is a bunch of
dudes hogging the weight area. I can't tell you how
many times some guy has stolen the bench I'm standing
near before I can use it because surely a girl
wouldn't be using that. It's infuriating. So I want to
(46:43):
encourage all the lifting or soon to be lifting ladies
out there to claim what's yours. She put that in italics.
Don't let a bro dude bully you around because he
thinks chicks don't lift. If someone takes something you're using,
say something. And if they're hogging a rack or a
ben to ask them if they're done, because you want
to use it. And no, you don't need their help. Alright, Kendall,
(47:08):
thanks for the advice. Well, I've got a letter here
from Caroline about our Women Tattoos Too, part specifically correcting
us on our misrepresentation of Kat Vonde and I will
say we've got a couple of letters about this. So
Caroline helpfully informs us that while yes, Cat has gained
(47:30):
a lot of popularity from her shows, but she is
not just a pretty face on TV. Kat is widely
regarded as one of the most skilled tattoosts in the
business and is known for her extremely realistic portraits, for
which many consider her the best in that field. Along
with this, Kat opened up one of the most successful
tattoo shops in the country high voltage tattoo, which always
(47:52):
has a long waiting list of clients, and she often
brings an artist from around the world to do month
long work periods in order to expose the local community
to the great tattoo is around the world. She's also
used her fame for numerous social justice campaigns, most notably
her fight for animal rights. There are few, if any
female tattoos who have reached this level of success and recognition,
(48:13):
and I'm really disappointed that you didn't give her the
credit that she deserves her becoming a leading lady in
a male dominated field. And she goes on to say,
in response to your request for lady tattoo is suggestions
for a bird tattoo. Not sure what specific style you're
going for, but definitely keep Cat in mind if you
want a realistic tattoo in black and white. Apparently she's
(48:34):
one of the nicest people you'll ever meet and has
done interviews while giving tattoos. What a great podcast that
would make, Oh, Caroline, I absolutely agree, and we stand
corrected on Cat Bondie, although I do think we mentioned
that she is super talented. Um, but yeah, we were
were by no means were experts on cat Bondie's So
(48:56):
thank you to Caroline and other listeners who have filled
us in what a rad lady she is and if
you've got rad ladies to tell us about her, just
thoughts you want to send our way. Mom Stuff at
how stuff works dot com is our email address and
for links to all of our social media as well
as all of our blogs, videos and podcasts with our sources.
(49:18):
So you can learn more about women's boxing, head on
over to stuff Mom Never Told You dot com. For
more on this and thousands of other topics, visit how
stuff works dot com
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