Finding Our Voices with Samara Bay

Dialect coach and host of the podcast of Permission to Speak Samara Bay shares her insights around language, policing women's vocal patterns and how to trust your voice.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I welcome to stuff.
I've never told your production of I Heart Radios how
stuff work. So this is a fun one. Yes, this
was an interview we got to do while we were
out in l A. It was the first time we

(00:27):
visited the l A studios. It was really nice. It
was you got to bond with the dogey. It took
a long time. I stepped on her. She was mad
at me, and I had to gain her trust by
pretending like I didn't want her to pet. It was
a whole thing. It was. I got to see it
all play. This was on Valentine's Day. It almost it
broke my heart. Samantha literally before we walked in, had

(00:47):
said she needed to find dog to pet because we
were in We were in l A for several days,
so you were away from Peaches and you were feeling
the and I needed I needed a touch of a
dog and you did. Yeah, alms, I said it. I
want to leave it at that. Um. Yeah. So our
friends over in the l A studio has an office dog.

(01:10):
Sophie has her dog there, Anderson Andy, who is an adorable,
adorable little dog. Also, the name Confusion was there was
there was us Andy and Andie. Was a little confusioning,
but yes, we got to sit in and take a
tour of their beautiful with two very nice showers in

(01:33):
their office. By the yes that I was like a
day they got a waterfall shower, y'all. Yes, it was
intense as well as a nice little balcony. It's not
a little nice balcony. It was pretty decent. Was Yeah,
it was nice as well as the fact that we
got to hang with our sister of our network, Samara Bay.
She is starting her podcast with us called Permission to Speak,

(01:56):
which is very exciting. She's doing some amazing things. She
is a dialect coach, yeah yeah, and she's worked on
like Avengers, End Game, Wonder Woman eighty four, all kinds
of things, and now she is also working with women
running profits. As we've spoken about on the show, there
was no shortage of critiques around women's voices, right, and

(02:22):
is really interesting what she's doing in her podcast, which
as you as you listen to this, I believe will
have dropped for a medium that is about speaking and listening, right,
there really isn't that much out there on that topic,
especially for women, other than being told you're annoying, right,
And you know, honestly, I I didn't think this was

(02:44):
gonna happen, but I did have like a tiny little
fear in the back of my brain that we were
going to get there and she was going to be like,
so I listened to your show, here are But I
definitely had the moment of like, she's going to be like,
these are the reasons why people think you're annoying, and
these are the things that you need to work. Gone. Yes,
And she absolutely was a dulight um actually really reaffirming

(03:06):
about just finding the things about you that are authentic
about you and not picking apart but building up. I mean,
she helped us before our panel. Yeah, we had a panel.
I was still kind of messed it up a little bit,
but we did. The last thing she said to us
was don't apologize. The first thing I did was apologizing that.
I was like, oh, I'm sorry. I didn't think I'm
wearing Oh no, yeah, but it went okay, I did.

(03:27):
It takes a while to learn that it wasn't It
was the way you suppoke that you were apologizing, not
necessarily apologizing, right, right. Yeah, A gradation of apologies, especially
for women which is what she speaks about. It's like,
just because you didn't say you're sorry, it doesn't mean
you're not apologizing. So a great another piece of advice, right,
and the panel we were speaking on was about getting

(03:49):
angry and for women, what does that look like? And
whine do you? A lot of us, including me, struggle
with it, And it was great because she also gave
me this wonderful piece of understanding of clarity that I
haven't seen a lot of healthy examples of angry women
in my life, modeled in like my specific life, especially

(04:11):
when I was younger, and just normalizing that and seeing
more and more of that because then I don't know
how to express it very well. I go from zero
to fifty um, and that's because I don't there's no
examples for me. So that was not Another wonderful thing
I got in that conversation, as well as podcast voice,

(04:32):
which is something that I struggled with before I, before
I started, and when I first started, where I thought
I had to sound a certain way that would be
the most likable version of me. But everybody hated that version,
right because they could tell I wasn't being me and
they did not like that which, as we know with women,
if you're not authentic, get out, and even if you are,

(04:52):
some time to get but it is changing. Um. And
this was a really great conversation that we got to
have with Samara, and we're very excited to share it
with you. So I guess we'll let pass us and
pass Samara take it away. We have with us a

(05:14):
very very special friend, Samara. Can you introduce yourself for us?
My name is Samara B. I am based in l
A and I am a dialect coach for TV and
film and also sort of a speech and communication coach
for politicians, for entrepreneurs, for anybody. I like to say,
for anybody who's interested in using their voice to get
what they want. How long have you been doing this work?

(05:37):
I got an m f A Masters in Acting in
oh six, and I was like dead set on being
a Shakespearean actress, like regionally not even like I wasn't.
I mean maybe like New York Shakespeare the Park would
have been great, but I was like, I'm gonna make
no money and make art and like never have a
family and never. I was like I really like Roman

(06:00):
to size the nomadic existence, um, And like honestly you know,
to all the nerds out there listening, Like having a
Shakespeare background has had a massive impact on everything else
I've done with my life. But starting in O six,
when I got out and I moved to New York
and was trying to, you know, make the acting thing happen,
I had already kind of picked up some mentors in
this dialect world. It's a pretty small world. There's like

(06:22):
twenty of us total on both coasts. A few there's
somebody in Atlanta, there's somebody in Chicago, but for the
most part, that's it. It's like less than two dozen.
And um, a lot of us actually have the same
agent who represents us for TV and film stuff, so like,
you know, that's sort of how the work happens. And
there was obviously a process over many years, both in
New York and here of me being like that's a

(06:44):
cool side hustle, but like I'm an actress there, And
then over time I was like, wow, I have a
lot more fun actually doing this and you know, supporting
actors and kind of allowing myself to be kind of
an anthropologist sociologist, like just thinking about the ways humans
communicate rather than you know, endlessly trying to fit some

(07:08):
type that I was never going to fit. It was
like a a many year progression. But really I've been
dialect coaching now for like almost fifteen years. Wow, and
how do you get into something like that? I was
reading some of the dialects that you you've coached before, like,
how do you even do that? I mean, it is

(07:29):
a bit nerdy. It's quite fun because when you're actually
coaching somebody, it's very visceral and you're in the space
with another artsy person and it's feel silly and embodied
and kind of just creative. But there is an initial
step which is not uncreative, but it is a little
header where like, if I'm being what I'm working on
right now is a nineteen fifties North Carolina African American

(07:54):
vernacular for a couple who are like farmhouse but aspirational educated.
That is a specific story quote unquote we are telling
with that accent. And then for me, it's like I
can either just like do a search on YouTube for
like North Carolina the end, or I can really try

(08:16):
to find somebody, hopefully even somebody from an earlier era.
There's like, you know, all kinds of YouTube is kind
of a time capsule, if you think of it that way.
And I found this one guy who really fits the
bill and is now in his like eighties or whatever nineties,
but would have been the right age at the time.
And he did this speech that of course made it
onto YouTube because the Internet, and it's beautiful. He's from

(08:39):
the right place, he has the right spirit of the character.
And um, I break down the sounds using the International
Phonetic alphabet. I know, by the way, that's called I
P A and it is not the same as the beer,
but the International Phonetic alphabet very simply is a symbol
for every sound. So instead of the letters, which if

(09:02):
you have the letter A in a word you don't
know it literally can be app like apple, aw, like father, all,
like a w on, how cute A or like about.
So it's five sounds with the letter A. And now
in international finitic alplem that we have five different symbols, which,
by the way up top, when people take linguistics classes

(09:23):
or take speech classes, that's a hard thing to learn,
especially if you're an artsy type. You're like that looks
like mass. It's a lot of literally Greek symbols and
things like that. But the initial I mean, I guess
I always say that because if anybody here has ever
like experience that the initial hurdle sucks. But on the
other side of it, it's like a secret code to
decode everybody's accent and it works. Do you see that

(09:45):
when you talk to people, are you're trying to get
like as you're talking, You're like, I mean, I'm I
would like to think I'm kind of kinder than that,
And I'm like, what I've discovered about how my brain
works is I can kind of either focus on content
or focus on sounds. So if I'm actually a woral
conversation with people, i am not just being It's like,
it's like I can tell you're a sound is a

(10:05):
little flat. Somebody says, like, what you know, like diagnose me,
I'll start to listen a little bit closer to that. Yeah,
I got nervous. I was like, oh, Annie, we're gonna
have to we're but I'm gonna but I'm gonna make
it real here because part of the deal with my

(10:26):
version of doing this, and there is sometimes older guard
who doesn't treat this the same way because this is
how generations work. But for me, who's in my thirties,
who is you know, well aware of like intersectionality. Um,
I think it's part of my job to a not
judge accents at all. Every every single person sounds different

(10:49):
from every single other person in the entire world. So
like we should revel in the ways in which our
life has influenced our sound. It's like a thing I
should just like a street it out, but I believe it,
and you know, and so relatedly, what I want is
for people to feel as free as possible with the
way they communicate. And actually, what I think is like

(11:10):
the way that we hear powerful people talk should just change.
It's not that we should change, you know. So I'm
not here being like, oh my god, you guys are
not sounding standard American. Standard American is a made up accent,
by the way, Okay, now I'm switching in the standard American.
This is a made up accent that exists where it's
the most clear, open energized version of every vowel and

(11:31):
consonant sound. It's beautiful and also does not sound like
a human, you know. It sounds robotic. Yeah, And and
I can tell it like all of this sort of
like color and dynamics in my own voice suddenly starts
to go away and I sound really neutral, and like, okay, great,
what do you do with the neutral person? You know, well,
that's what it seems that they want women to be,
is just neutral. Well yeah, who's day, though. I mean,

(11:53):
we've gotta exactly we've got to take charge of what
those assumptions are, right, and also honestly be better listeners
of other women right ourselves. Right? And you you did
start talking about intersectionality when it comes to how you
hear things and when you could if you critique. You
didn't say that word, but I'm assuming part of what
you have to do is critique and just kind of
break down what may be happening with a conversation even

(12:15):
and going as far as okay, let's say I'm asking
you please don't though, critique me and give me a
feedback on what this is. How does that look like
when it comes to the fact that I am a
a woman of color, being English is not my first language,
see I am Southern? What does that look like for
you in consideration in coaching, especially if it's not for acting,

(12:36):
but it's really for sort of quote unquote real life um,
it is not at all about the things you're doing
that deviate quote unquote from standard American quote unquote a
made up fact that we just talked about, right, It
is not about that at all. It is about the
ways that I can tell that you, the generic you,
one person who would be sitting obviously, the ways that

(12:58):
I can tell that you are uh not allowing yourself
to freely be you. I mean that suddenly sounded very seventies,
but you know, like the ways that we get in
our own way because we feel like there's only one
way to sound powerful or authoritative because of all kinds
of societal stuff. I mean, it has It's not like

(13:20):
what part of my interest in this podcast and in
talking more about this stuff is that this is not
about like each one of us, in our siloed little
personal you know, in our brains, has to be fighting
this alone being like God when when people take me seriously,
I don't know, I don't sound like the other people.
What are you know? What we should be able to
do and what I want to make sure that conversation
happens around is like we're all thinking that almost swore

(13:45):
because I feel very strongly about we all we all
feel this way. I mean, whether it's actual impostor syndrome
or just I don't feel like I belong because fill
in the blank reason I'm People have told me I'm
too big my whole life. People told me I'm too
small my whole life. People have told me I'm too loud,
to quiet, to millennial, to grown up to you know,

(14:09):
Like it's so much stuff that we've you know, picked
up the cues on our whole life and navigated, and
like go us for navigating um, like you know, the
things that society has told us to do to fit in.
But like when we want to stand out, when we
want to be on a stage and you know, give

(14:30):
a presentation in a voice that is both ours and
also like the I don't know, almost powerful version of us,
we do have to sort of face the ways that
we've maybe minimized ourselves. And so what I'm really doing
with people is calling out that stuff in a way
that's like loving enough that they can actually grow, not
not like obviously in a way that's like you're doing
it badly, so now do better, which, by the way,

(14:53):
doesn't work and I have a four year old also
doesn't work with exactly, But that is the thing like
massaging like good good good, like empowered versions of people
out of themselves is sort of the secret sauce. Right. Well,
it is really interesting how we have such anxieties around

(15:17):
our voices, especially women, and as you were saying earlier,
it's a huge anxiety when we have to listen to
our own and I know so many people who can't
stand it, like will not do it. And a lot
of listeners have written into as and said, how did
you find your voice? How did you get comfortable doing

(15:37):
what you do? And a lot of times I have
to say I never really did, but I just learned
that it's you. You're the thing that is making the
special whatever podcast. You're the thing. Um. And and sometimes
it's hard to accept. In some days it's easier to
do um. But what would you do? You have any
advice for finding that acceptance in yourself? Um? I mean,

(16:01):
there's a lot of different approaches, and it really it
is largely based on each individual person's Like what if
you if you listening are already thinking like what do
you do when you're having a bad day to make
yourself feel better? It's probably the same answer for how
to trust your voice more, you know, whether it's yoga
or meditation, or dancing to you know, your favorite song

(16:25):
or hanging out with friends. But my um my sort
of dream is that the version of ourselves that we
are the most comfortable with and love the most in
private context when we're surrounded by people that get us,
is the version that we can scale up into our
public spheres. And what that scaling up process looks like

(16:45):
is something. It's not nothing we don't I'm not saying
that our private self is exactly appropriate for every public
you know, scenario, but it's probably more close than we
kind of tend to think. There's a sense of like
formality that we I'm kind of obsessed with this idea
that we all kind of think the world is more
formal than it really is, and that the most powerful

(17:06):
people can afford to be less formal. So what is
that to kind of play in that land of like,
I'm just me, I'm conversational, and now I'm going to
talk in front of four people instead of four, and
what is that I might have to be a little louder,
I might have to energetically like reach the back of
the room regardless of a five a mic or not,
but just sort of like energy wise heartwell, you know,
sort of like care bear stair wise, but like I'd

(17:27):
like to think that in almost every profession, and this
does range and I'm not you know, one size fits
alling it here because you know, corporate and legal are
different than whatever tech, like everything is different. Um but uh,
but I am kind of obsessed with this idea that, um,
we can bring our conversational storytelling real selves into public

(17:52):
in ways that we don't always trust. We have some
more of our conversation with tomorrow, but first we have
a quick break for world worse answer and we're back.

(18:14):
Thank you sponsor. Obviously you have a goal, you have
a mission, and with your mission, we know you're coming
with a podcast in our network. Come big vocal hug. Yeah,
we're so glad you're part of it. Can you talk
to us a little bit about what your show is
based on what your show is about? Yeah, I'll actually

(18:38):
maybe I'll give you the origin story. So I went
to Princeton undergrad. Um, I know very but actually what
felt the fanciest was that a year and a half ago, UM,
I got a call from uh, some Princeton alumni person
saying that they were doing a women's conference back on
campus for like three thousand women and Justice Soda mayor

(18:59):
and just this Kegan We're going to speak at it
because they're both a lumps and would I be interested
in doing a Here's how it was pitched to me,
a fifty person workshop on the voice as like a
little breakout something something, And I was like, for not,
this is like non actors, non creatives, whatever, just whoever
shows up. And they were like exactly, And I'm like,
I don't know what that would look like, but absolutely

(19:23):
I can figure that out. And I have to admit
that I was. When I got the call. I was
in Washington, d C. For a month coaching Wonder Woman
the new one is that hasn't come out yet, and
I'm in coaching gal and I was feeling like, you know,
pretty pretty the word that I'm gonna say, and I'm like,
how do I say that without swearing? I was feeling
pretty good about myself, and so I called it how

(19:45):
do you use your voice to get what you want?
And I just started working with women running for office
and was sort of interested in what that is to
translate what I do in one industry into kind of
all industries and kind of the patterns that I had
noticed across industries from basically women who are more similar
than we think, you know. So a week before I

(20:06):
flew out for that, I got like automated email that
I think went out to all the people who are
presenting at that conference that just said how many people
have signed up for four hundred and sixty people day?
And I was like, okay, so my fifty person workshop
just got like a whole different, you know. And what
I learned from that, first of all that I needed

(20:26):
to actually figure out I was gonna do, But second
of all that um, you know, if that was like
a market research on how people feel about needing to
use their voice to get what they want, like it
turns out a lot of people need that. And I
really was able to make my my hour fifteen that
I had up on that stage be partly me kind
of setting up what I the patterns I have noticed

(20:48):
and what I what I think is true, but also
the whole second half really was like a group discussion.
I made sure there were microphones in the audience and
I asked people like what made you show up? And
there were so you know, there were twenty two year
old up to seventy year olds and it was exclusively
women in that room, and the stories that came out
were exactly what you'd imagine. You know. There was a

(21:09):
twenty two year old who had just started a podcast
and was getting trolled for her voice not sounding like
listeners think it's supposed to sound like, you know, UM.
And then there was a middle aged woman who was
talking about her teenage daughter who was doing up speak
and she was like, you know, deathly afraid that her
daughter was gonna like quote unquote not be taken seriously,
which I feel like it's like a you know, like

(21:29):
a thing for all of us. UM. And then there's
this older woman who stood up in the back of
the room and she said, I'm the only female board
member of filling the blank massive financial institution, and I
can't get a word in edgewise. And I was like,
does anyone else here out of you know, the four

(21:49):
hundred whatever people UM incorporate and can speak to anything
that works? And people started to stand up and basically say,
here's something that worked for me. And I thought that
at is the magic of what just happened, Like it
wasn't me. I got like such lovely feedback afterwards when
people were like, he should do a TED talk, and
I was like, thank you, But actually, I mean if

(22:10):
you're if you're if you're Ted and you're asking me,
I'll show up. But now, I mean I really was
like the magic of what happened was that women across industries,
across ages were sharing best practices on what worked for them,
and like I sort of was like, I don't think
this exists. Yeah. Period. So it was really quite shortly

(22:33):
after that that I started pitching this podcast idea because
I mean, the in between the thing that happened is
that Paul Sheer, who's like a podcasting genius and and
has like four of them, asked me to be on
one of them. This is so ridiculous, but he asked
me to be on a podcast um where he was
doing like a f I Top one movies of all time,
one episode per movie, and they were breaking up the

(22:54):
episodes with like a quote unquote expert in the middle
to talk about something related to the movie. And the
movie for me was Sophie's choice, a real upper and
also definitely from made when I was like two. But
but you know, he wanted to talk about dialect, like
what Meryl was doing and how you tell stories with dialect.

(23:14):
And I've actually coached Paul, so it was fun to
be like, you know, I literally walked out of that
podcast studio and I called my mom and I was like, oh, man,
podcast is like my medium. And she was like, that's
what you do with what you learned from the conference.
I love that, and so I kind of you know,
So the end of the story is that the podcast

(23:35):
is called Permission to Speak, and it is going to
be an interview every week with I sort of I
think of it as sort of two generally two categories.
Either people who are experts on the voice, like there
are social scientists and linguists and speech coaches who coach
Hillary Clinton who coach you know, corporate people who are

(23:56):
like sitting on massive amounts of tips and can come
on and really, you know, sort of throw best ideas
into the pot. And then the other massive category is
people who are who not call themselves quote unqute voice experts,
who are just like living life in some industry where
either because of a leadership position or because of some bravery,

(24:17):
they have a perspective they can share. And I'm sort
of excited to bring some people who we think of
in the public eye but we don't necessarily associate with
the voice, bring them in and get to kind of
talk to them about the stuff that they haven't necessarily
talked about in other interviews. That is about sort of
were public persona. How do we build our public persona
in a way that feels authentic. I'm so excited. I'll

(24:37):
thank you. I'm going to be subscribing immediately. It's just
me being like, this is a thing but I'm gonna
want to do in the world. But yeah, I think
you're correct. I haven't heard many things that it's geared
to how to use your voice, how to speak, how
to find your voice, and also here's some tips for
just in case you are a little nervous or trying

(24:58):
something new. I think this fantastic completely, it really is thinking.
It really is like the super literal version of the
voice in terms of like we can all think about
how up speaking, vocal fry, and these these things we
might have been told at some point mumbling whatever um
are getting in our way, if they are results of
the patriarch, I mean, the results of like you know,

(25:19):
play smaller, please, we'd like you better smaller, which sometimes,
by the way, works in our twenties and doesn't work
the older we get. And then it's like, oh, that's
interesting my old tricks that helped me quote unquote get
what I want when I was younger and cuter in
that you know, a way where society is like, ah,
aren't serving me anymore? And what that transition is. I

(25:41):
think all of us know that moment, whether it's like
a big thought about our life or just a little
thought in some conversation where it's like, oh, that way
that I undermine myself, Um, it helped me back then,
not helping me right now. And so there is this
thing where it's like the literal side of how we
use our voice and warm ups and whatever kind of
you know, I had a voice her in to talk

(26:01):
about like literally she does like surgery on people's vocal cords.
Like that's okay, we're going literal on the past. And
then there's also just the massive, much more metaphorical thing
of like how do we decide what we care about
and how do we talk about it like we care
about it? Because sounding like we care in our voice, um,
is something we have not most of us have been
conditioned away from right right and speaking of all of

(26:24):
those ideas, when you when you think of vocal fry,
when we think of speaking, it's definitely very very gendered.
Can you give us a social what you think is
the reasoning? Obviously patriarchal. It almost feels like, I feel
like patriarch what is your theory or not even theory,

(26:47):
but what are your thoughts on all of that? And
why is it so gendered? And why is it used
even more and more now as if it's almost like
a new trend to say she has vocal fry. Well,
by the way, it's so not new, like when I've
done some research on it, it's like now it's like
our entire you know, semi adult life, like I want
to say, for the last fifteen or twenty years. You
can google vocal fry and find think pieces about how

(27:12):
women are undermining those. One of my favorite things is
I saw in an article um about such things that
a woman who was writing a really searing piece about
like how vocal fry is so gendered as you say,
found an amazing video put out by Duke's Business School
with a dude in the middle of the camera talking

(27:35):
about how research has been done the vocal fry undermines
women's job prospects when they go through like an interview process.
That guy ends almost all of his sentences with vocal fry,
of course. And what's fascinating is that, you know, like

(27:56):
the in this video that is sort of about shaming
vocal for I that was produced by multiple people no
one thought to even notice. And that's you know, that's
the thing, because there's a thing that linguists say, uh
that like sort of throughout time, at least in Western culture,

(28:17):
here's how language evolves. We've all noticed, like now we've
all been alive enough to be like, oh, we we
used to say that word that way and now we
say it this way, or that word is now out
of fashion, or there's a new word in English because internet,
you know whatever. And the the sort of general linguistic
like wisdom around that is that the most creative groups
of people when it comes to sort of changing up

(28:39):
the way we pronounce things, with the way we make
verb tenses happen or whatever, is often the people on
the most margins, often African American communities, gay communities, and
then it gets mainstream ified quote unquote by young white women,
and then it becomes mainstream because their parents start doing
it or whatever, and now and now it's become a
societal thing. So obviously there's a lot of like you know,

(29:00):
button social justice stuff and what I just said, But
the main thing is that, the main reason I bring
it up is that the way that young women communicate
is ultimately what pushes language, what evolves language. So yeah,
we can totally say, like you're that up speaking, that

(29:20):
vocal fry is like that really you know, embarrassing thing
girls do, or you can say it exists everywhere now
everyone is doing it in certain contexts, and you know,
sure we can totally point fingers at young girls because
what an easy target, low hanging fruit. Um. And and

(29:40):
then we can also say, because this is partly my
job is, then we can also say, as those younger
women become older, we can take some inventory on ourselves.
I think we do not have to be in a
black and white world where it's either all vocal fry
all the time or not. We can say that is
a socialized thing we've picked up to make us seem
smaller than we are vocally because if we have if
we end with vocal fright, it's like I care about

(30:02):
this thing a lot, but like or whatever you know,
which is like serves a purpose, which is like I'm
trial ballooning this thing, but like I don't care that much,
Like I don't know whatever do you guys care? Because
if not, we could drop it. You know, it's useful. Um.
And then we can also be the same person who
gets a little older or for whatever reason, faces a
potential power position and can take inventory of the things

(30:24):
that we did but don't necessarily have to do. Yeah. Um,
And I guess kind of going off of that, since
you've recently you've gotten into the world of politics, and um,
is this a big year? We'll say, and I we've
done episodes before about how the media critiques women in

(30:45):
politics versus men, And can you speak to your your
experiences so far, what you've noticed, um, and how do
you navigate that? How do you navigate when you see
that Elizze's Warren's speech has been completely dismissed all that,
and you're like, where did where did she go? I mean,
I honestly feel like my answer to that question is
a lot less to do with my professional life and

(31:06):
more to do with just like my activism friends who
are super inspiring to me. And then it is literally
a question of, like if the media is going to
fall back on old tropes that are not serving us anymore,
uh than like what can we do to disrupt? Like
what can we what what viral things can we do
to you know? But in terms of her actual voice,
I mean, I just posted an awesome quote from Washington

(31:28):
Post piece from a few months ago yesterday and on
my on my Instagram for the podcast which is at
Permission to Speak pod. I'm growing my audience there and
would love you to, George. But it's a quote that
I loved that I came across when Okay, these these
two older women spoke at the let's take a moment

(31:51):
impeachment hearings UM in like November ish, I don't know
um and one of them was named Marie Ivanovich, and
she uh did a beautiful job, and no one quite
knew what to make of her, Like was she being casual?
Was she being formal? Was she serious? Was she emotional?
We don't know what to do. And right around that

(32:13):
same week, some guy who actually I don't think any
must remember the name of also was on the stand,
what do you say? Whatever was? It was also part
of the hearing, and somebuddy in the press had said,
as soon as he opened his mouth, we trusted him
because he reminded us of Walter Cronkite, the most trusted
voice and news or whatever. And what this woman that

(32:34):
Monica has at the Washington Post had said was, you know,
when Marie Ivanovitch opens her mouth as a sixty one
year old, polite, extremely well educated and elevated woman, we
don't have a reference. We just don't. And it's like,
you know, Klobachar said in some early debate when she
was like, who's your favorite female president of America? You know,

(32:57):
it's like, right, we just don't actually have I find,
even as somebody who's like interested in this and and
professionally involved, I find it really hard to like even
hold in my head like who what women through time
I admire vocally, And I think it's I think it's
a I think it actually is kind of a patriarchal dissonance.

(33:20):
So part of what I'm interested in with the podcast,
but also what you're talking about is each of us
like getting better at noticing whose voices are really cutting through,
and if it's a woman, like it doesn't. It's not
that the voice has to be perfect. We don't even
know what that is. That's not a thing and it's
certainly not a thing we expect of men. But is

(33:41):
that voice sounding like it's connected to a heart and
to a brain into a person, and you know, whatever
our definitions of authentic, but that's probably you know, something
like that, And then can we like try to try
to admire it rather than judge it? Love that? Yeah,
I do too. I definitely feel like a lot of

(34:01):
us go through periods where we're very judgmental of other
women as women. But then when you start to get
the breakda too. You you you do mature and you
realize what you're doing. And I when I hear people
say things I was researching recently, Um, how radio frequencies

(34:21):
you have to just be better? God for like lowers
literally made for men, exactly exactly, but when women sounded
quote unquote tinny, and it's like or our technology was
not made for us. Yes, and and just that whole
idea of we're still getting advice based on that technology
of how to sound bring up exactly, because I feel

(34:44):
like there are moments when I'm like, why me, I'm
not like the most you know, I I don't have
like eighty billion certifications in the voice. There are people
who are like link later certified, and you know, there's
like there's a lot of like sort of modalities of
vocal work and breath work and stuff. But I've always
been more interested in, like when our voice hits the air,
the real the real stuff of like what happens when

(35:05):
we've been socialized in one way and then we start
to become aware of it, and you know, part of
being this sort of young guard and that is being
like that's a lot of a hundred years of assumptions
no one questioned, and here we are being like, oh,
maybe we should just like we write the rules on
that because somebody who we don't respect made the rules right.

(35:25):
And it's like technology has changed, the world has changed.
But it bothers me when we hear she doesn't sound authentic.
I don't trust her, But it's because we're also being
told you have to sound this way to be authoritative. Totally.
I mean, something I'm really interested in, and that is
the other side. If I'm being totally honest. Is the

(35:46):
other side of being like the new guard is that
I'm always going to um like air a little bit
on the side of like, you know, like burn it
all down. But there are there are absolutely less safe
environments to experiment. And so for me to just you know,
especially I mean, here's an example for black women who

(36:07):
have been told that they're angry, you know, for me
to come in and be like there authentic self just
be like out and like like that is irresponsible. We
have to take into account what feels authentic for us
and also what is going to get us the type
of pushback in a space that is going to not
get us what we want, and then we have to also,
as collectively as a society, like change those spaces. And

(36:29):
that's you know whatever, a three pronged thing. That's a
that's a thing, and I got but but to say,
you know, there's this whole thing of me people where
they are when it comes to like inclusion stuff. I
want the world to be a place where people can
be the loudest, best, most, you know, beloved of themselves
version of themselves in every context. And since that isn't

(36:51):
the world we're currently in, we we there is a
navigating that has to happen, right, and you know, part
of sort of owning our own ways is pushing the
boundaries a little bit more, a little bit more, a
little bit more, having sisterhood doing the same thing, and
then like seeing what boundaries over time can get eroded.
And this is a conversation about balancing the platform that

(37:13):
not everyone has the same opportunity, like you were saying,
that not everyone has that ability to just come up
and say something and hope yeah. Oh but I love
what you're saying too, because I've always thought, I mean,
I think about this as somebody who has a kid
in um, the entertainment industry, not not in the entertainment
industry and as a whole, but on set because actually
it's quite rare to have a you know, he's not

(37:33):
a toddler anymore. But you know, for while he was
that's how that's how growing up works, um and uh.
And for a while I was like, wow, I am
the only person on these sets, only woman, I should say,
on these sets who have who as a kid. And
there would be women who would be like in the
hair and makeup trailer who had like sixteen year olds
who had taken a lot of time off from that
kind of like twelve hour day work and then got back.

(37:56):
But my point is that I have I find a
real I relish those opportunities when I'm in a slightly
power position to sort of model and normalize. And that's
the same for anybody in any industry. If you are
in a power position and you have what I like
to call a non patriarchal sound of power, you just
don't sound like those old, you know, grumpy white guys

(38:19):
that we grew up hearing as as authority use it
and people who are are inspiring all of us. I mean,
there's there's all kinds of reasons that Lizzo inspires us,
but that is one of them. And you know, run
with run with the platform you have. I love it.
Can you talk a little bit more about being on

(38:40):
set as that person and what's that like, because I know,
I mean it's changing, but a lot of a lot
of men and you running out in between, like with
hair and makeup and having that confidence to do it,
and just what's your experience. I mean, I will say
that my actors um always end up calling me some

(39:02):
version of like a dialect Ninja, which is quite a
compliment because, as you can probably tell, my personality is
pretty big in a space, but on set, I really
do minimize it. I really am trying to just be
of use to the production. But yeah, it's uh, not
the red carpet side of Hollywood, but the production side,
which i is the word that we all use to mean,

(39:22):
like all those people who show up for twelve hour days,
fourteen hour days and our union and are mostly it's
like teamsters and a lot of like skilled laborers in
like who do who are brilliant at holding a microphone
called a boom over people's heads at just the right
height that like they pick up the sound but not

(39:43):
the right height that the boom gets in the shot
like that. You know, it's a skill. But by and large,
and I'm working on a show right now that is
the show content itself is all about racial tension, and
yet the crew is almost exclusively white, almost exclusively male,
and the few of us who aren't like our serious

(40:05):
solidarity allegiances, and like the allegiance is not just like hey,
I'm taking care of you, the allegiances. Also, we've had
quiet conversations about how weird it is when like you're
in a context like that where the power structure so
totally obvious and like, so yeah, I mean and the
and the problem is and I'm not really just like

(40:26):
painting like white men as the problem in general. I'm
actually saying specifically that I'm really I've noticed myself surrounded.
Hope none of them are going to listen to this,
but I'm kind of just assuming they're not. I've noticed
a huge amount of like nobody in in these guys
lives has ever shown them their privilege or or pushed

(40:49):
them to be better. And there are little ways in
which I do because I'm like, I mean, I guess
I have the obligation because I'm here, and I call
them on stuff, which makes it real fun um but um,
and I've gotten a lot of like can't take a
joke's because of God, yeah, funny ones um, but you know,

(41:15):
it is also just demormalizing. I mean, sometimes I'm not
up for calling people and stuff. I'm more just like
listening to people saying things that are depressing and not
and like micro their micro So it's not like you know,
fire able offenses, it's just like, wow, you have no
idea that every woman who you know is directing or
who's in a power position you don't like for some

(41:37):
weird reason. It's odd, huh, what could it be? So? Yeah,
I mean that's the part of Hollywood that doesn't get
discussed that much because we often are talking about power people,
and the like sort of slubby white dude archetypes that
I'm talking about would not consider themselves power people. They
are only powerful in so much as they are taking
jobs from people who might be a her influence on

(42:00):
a set. Right, I don't know who the women are
who do a lot of those jobs because I haven't
met them, right actually, um any and now we're talking
about that because I'm that old woman in Atlanta, because
you know, we have a lot of coming through. Yes,
I've done some of I've coached some marvel stuff from far,
but no one has ever flown me. I don't know what.
I've never been to Atlanta to come on time all

(42:25):
the good times. But yeah. One of the things that
I had met was a woman who was a part
of the construction and sets and stuts as she was
a painter, and I asked her, I was like, wait, so,
how many women do you work with and we were
talking about this is because it's just so hard sometimes
to get out of that trope of the idea of
misogyny and the patriarch really teaching you about coming together

(42:45):
support women as opposed to competing with women. So when
I was talking with her and I asked her how
many women are a part of this, She's like, I'm
one of three of this giant, massive crew. But she's like,
but you know, it's cool as cool they like me.
I'm not one of those girls type of situations. Like
kind of just stared at it, and I was trying
not to make a phase because I was really interested,
because I was hoping maybe we could make this an episode.

(43:06):
And then she talked about the fact that the main
crew or the main hot person who hires, never hired
women until the last two years, and she was so
proud that she was one of the few women, and
that kind of chokes you, don't she didn't think of
that outside of that because she made it in um

(43:26):
as opposed to I think I also think of men
who just recognized this is normal, lay normal. I can
complain about I'm not as good as this, but I'm here,
so yeah, it makes me think about how like every
industry has its own like evolution around right. I mean,
the word parody came to mind. Obviously I'm talking about
so far from parody, but yeah, um, but you know,

(43:47):
like because because we think about some of the professions
like law as being also like super strong in the
on the man's side in like the seventies, and there
was like reckonings in that, you know, but now we're
talking out you know whatever forty years later, fifty years later,
and and that's it's happening in other industries as though
it's you know, new, and it is, I guess in

(44:09):
that industry. And so then that I mean, I feel
like what happened in stuff like law. And I'm mostly
basing this on my mom's experience having gone to law
school and been like one of three women out of
a class of five or something. But you know, is
that all those stories we hear about the older women
who sort of like slammed the door shut on the
next generation coming up, and how that doesn't feel is

(44:30):
true for our generation And then it sounds like you
know from your story that like, but in every industry
they have to go through that phase where the first
phase is like I made it in screw you right
in the second phase is like, oh we what if
we were like a lot of women like how would
even make like that would make work life better? Right? Right?

(44:50):
It is? I think it. I think it's really interesting
to see dynamic shift. And we're talking about what it
looks like to again given even platform, allow someone brings
someone up with you who have not had the same opportunities,
same exposures, and what that looks like in our generation
today we're going to do our presentation about getting angry.
And when you were talking about there's there's this whole

(45:12):
idea of yes, let's use anger, but you're correct when
it comes to the trope of angry black women, that's
not necessarily a tool. It is more of a weapon
against them, and it definitely is marked against them. And
so that conversation of what does it look like when
we can take all of these different things that we
see as negatives and or all these different blockages in

(45:36):
our way, whether it's our again, our voices are the
way we speak, our accents, even though you know any
of those things, as well as our feelings, our emotions,
our daily battles in our career, whatever what not what
does it look like when we actually can come forward
and use that as a power tool for us to
speak on behalf of whatever needs to be spoken about.

(45:58):
And when we when we're in positions where we feel scared,
like literally our nervous system is just like I don't
feel safe. Um, we men, women, everybody turns into the
most generic version of ourselves. And vocally, what that means
as we use as little pitch as possible. So so
I mean, I like to joke that this is like
obviously super gender stereotype and if doesn't fit you, I'm thrilled.

(46:21):
But the sort of massive, you know, parity version of
it is that in uncomfortable situations, women go to nice
and men go to cool. And what that means vocally
is that women go up and stay in a very
narrow pitch range. So it's like it's I mean, I
call it our Starbucks voice where it's like, oh my god, no,
it's totally okay, or you know, I'm so sorry that
the swim milk is out, you know, I mean, no

(46:41):
one uses swimuk anymore. Now, it's oat milk all the time.
Whereas men traditionally will sense an uncomfortable situation where they aren't,
you know, able to sort of be as revealing and vulnerable,
and we'll go down and pitch and also have as
men am more as a pitch range as possible. And

(47:02):
then it's like, oh no, dude, that's really cool. Yeah,
oh totally yeah, broy know what's up right, And we
laugh because we this is like so recognizable. I just
love your accident. But but you know, the point of
it is that the opposite is the opposite, right, So

(47:22):
when both men and women have more of a sense
of freedom of going up high when it's like oh
my god, and then we're going down low when it's
like but anyway, you know whatever, Like we I don't
mean like outside of the range of normal. We're not
talking about like so extreme that we feel like we're clowns.
But I am saying that all of us have so
much more vocal range to share the you know, the

(47:45):
actual thought that we're sharing. Then we sometimes use in
uncomfortable situations. And part of my work is like sort
of helping people take that leap into acting like they're
in a more comfortable situation than right they are. An
anger is totally one of those things that can be
I mean weaponized was the word I was about to use.
That's definitely violent, but you know it can be. It

(48:06):
can be weaponized if it's if we're using it as like,
not something that shuts us down because we feel shamy
about it, but rather something that you know, opens us up.
And often the solution, regardless of what we look like,
is about connecting that anger to a group injustice rather
than something that I haven't processed yet that's making me mad.

(48:29):
That's the kind of anger that will almost never serve
any of us publicly. It's a place we can go through.
And you know, women I don't know. I mean I
read Good and Mad by Rebecca tray Star, which is
amazing book. Um and uh and also um, Rage Becomes
Her by Siroya Shmale who I'm going to have my um.
But but yeah, I mean obviously like unprocessed anger fine,

(48:52):
but also god, women are never taught how to be
angry in a healthy thing. So part of the process,
whether we're actually weaponizing a quote unquote for a public
talk or just like having the feelings, is to just
actually let ourselves like, what is it to have healthy
anchor question mark dot dot doesn't break some dishes to go. Yeah,

(49:21):
we have a little bit more in this conversation, but
first we have one more cup break for a word
from our sponsor, and we're back, Thank you, sponsor. There's

(49:44):
this common thread coming out through all of this is
that we just need to see more women in doing things.
O god, it's so true. It's so true. And also
we need to acknowledge the ones that are doing it
right right, so you know, like I've definitely, I've definitely
been guilty of saying like, but there's no women in power.
Then it's like, wait a second, I am just not
actually taking the second to point out the one, you know.

(50:05):
I mean, there's a lot we can learn both from
the older generation women who we don't necessarily see ourselves
in the Nancy Pelosi's and the Maxine Waters of the world,
who we can revere but we aren't necessarily like let
me borrow their tricks because that would feel super artificial
on me. But then there's also obviously, like you know,
the lovingly called the squad in Congress, And then there's

(50:26):
also people in all kinds of other industries, whether it's
an entertainment or in business, who don't necessarily get like
as much of a public eye. But obviously part of
my dream with this podcast as I can you know,
shine that light. Yeah, and part of actually what I've
what I'm doing now is that the final chunk of
all of my episodes, I'm asking my guests to bring
in a woman whose voice they admire. So we listened

(50:48):
to a little bit and we talk about it in
a way where we're really pointing out what's working, because
it's just a muscle we need to flex. True. I
love it. Yeah, that's awesome, such a great idea. Yeah,
let's let's take that competition immediately. That's what we do. Worst.

(51:16):
The first episode I did was called bad Feminist. Oh yeah, yeah,
yeah no, And I love this. I don't know if
if your listeners know this, but the British podcast called
Guilty Feminist. Oh my god, so glorious because it's true.
I mean, like, our values are feminist values also hit
our you know thoughts, and our thoughts are sometimes like
oh man, I didn't shave my legs and I feel ugly,

(51:37):
and it's like, oh, well, how do I square those
two things? Was battle? It's like when we talk about
oh no, you look beautiful, naturally be like, oh no,
I gotta get that foundation a little over here. Yeah. Yeah,
but we're in it together. Yeah we are. So for listeners,

(52:00):
where can they find you? My podcast Permission to Speak,
which I've you know, obviously been talking here like aggressively. No,
I'm just such a nerd. I can't not talk about
this stuff. UM anyway is uh weekly on Wednesdays, and
then it's so important to me that um listeners don't
feel like they're just listeners, but that they're really part

(52:21):
of the community and that they are you, I should say,
are really grappling with your own voice in a way
where you feel like you can be heard. So if
you want to go to the uh my instagram of
at Permission to Speak pod or a forthcoming website, I'm
mean to have all kinds of ways to engage because, um,
I'm here, we're here. Well let's do this together, Yes,

(52:42):
let's do it. Oh, thank you so much. Yeah, this
is such a wonderful conversation. Thank you very much. I
love what you're doing. This is a fantastic, fantastic idea.
Thanks you, guys. We hope that you enjoyed that interview.
It really is fascinating him any anxieties we have around

(53:03):
our own voices and around other people's voices, and how
these structures of power for so long silence people's voices,
because I do think there's just so many layers of
our voices that we have denied or we are just
anxious about. I don't know. So it was fascinating to

(53:27):
me to hear from her, somebody who specializes in that
of all of these avenues of voice, of dialect and
accent and picking that apart and then finding the thing
that is that is you, right, And I think she
did an amazing job and giving great advice do not
just us, but too many people who are trying to

(53:49):
find their voice. Um, and what she's doing and what
she's talking about, even when it comes to the clinical
level of voice and speaking. I think it was really
fascinating to have a better understanding at the background and
the technology even that may affect what people here are,
how people hear us as we speak, right. That was
one of the things I didn't know that our technology

(54:12):
was essentially I should have essentially just made for men,
and they made women's voices Altenny And anyway, the times
have changed, but we I one of the things she
said that I loved the most was we need to
change the way we think and judge other people's voices
and specifically women's voices. Right. So go check out her podcast,
Permission to Speak, and if you would like to email us,

(54:37):
you can. Our email is SEF Media mom Stuff at
iHeart media dot com. You can also find us on
Twitter at mom Stuff podcast or on Instagram at stuff
I'm Never Told You. Thanks as always to our super
producer Andrew Howard and guest superproducer Dan. I don't know
your last name, Dan, but you were a delight. You

(54:58):
were a delight, and you gave was wonderful food advice
that we took. We took up. It was very delicious.
It was very delicious. Thank you, and thanks to you
listeners for listening. Stuff I Never Told You's a production
of ir Radios how Stuff Works. For more podcasts from
her radio, visit the ihar radio app, Apple podcast, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.