Gaslighting 101

Here's how you can recognize it. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hi, this is Annie, and this is Bridget and this
is stuff Mom never told you. Um, And we wanted
to start out today with a trigger warning because we're
going to be talking about gaslighting, which is a form

(00:26):
of mental and emotional abuse. So if that is a
trigger for you, probably best that you skip this episode. Yeah,
all right, So let's start with a definition, shall we. Yeah.
I wonder if most people are familiar with it. Probably not,
I don't know. But when someone explained it to me,
it was like so many things fell into place, because

(00:49):
I think a lot of people have experienced this and
they don't realize that they have. Yeah. Sometimes giving folks
a name for what they are experiencing or have experienced
can be very liberating, can be sort of oh that's
what it was. Yeah, and you can start to pinpoint
the behaviors. Okay, So from Encyclopedia Britannica, gas lighting and

(01:09):
elaborate and insidious technique of deception and psychological manipulation, usually
practiced by a single deceiver or gas lighter on a
single victim over an extended period. Its effect is to
gradually undermine the victim's confidence in his own ability to
distinguish the truth from falsehood, right from wrong, our reality
from appearance, thereby rendering him pathologically dependent on the gas

(01:31):
lighter in his thinkings or feelix. Oh yeah, so the
definition you're right, it really does. And you read that definition,
it's almost impossible to not look back on your prior
relationships or family relationships or friendships or whatever and think, oh,
that person who treated me weird, like made me feel
really weird. And I always questioned, am I okay? Am

(01:54):
I crazy? Am I over sensitive? Am I blowing up
at nothing? You know, that person who filled you with
self doubt? It's easy to look back and say, oh,
that's what was happening. Yeah, exactly, And you touched on
a lot of the common phrases you might hear um.
And for me, when I learned what this is, there's
someone of my family who's really good at this, and

(02:15):
I like, once I've learned what it is, now when
when it comes up, I'm able to like say, nope, nope,
I'm being perfectly reasonable and how I'm behaving, you can't
just dismiss me. So the goal of gas lighting is
to make you doubt your own ability to perceive reality.
And some common phrases that you might hear, um, are

(02:36):
you sure you're remembering that correctly? You know you have
a bad memory. Um, you're making things up again. You're
too sensitive, Like you said, bridget Um, you'll never find
someone as good as me. It's all on your head.
It slowly chips away at the target self esteem. And
it's so so, so so effective, so effective that it's
a frequent tool of dictators and colt leaders. Oh that

(02:57):
actually sounds familiar to me, does it? But there actually
might be someone who is a who you might think
of as a bit of a dictator, who is doing that. Now,
don't any names, but well we might say some names later.
Another part of this is the illusory truth effect, and
that's when someone believes something mostly because they've heard it
so much before. This is really problematic and a lot

(03:20):
of things, but it comes up in politics. If you
just hear something over and over, you start to believe it,
even if you've only heard it, like from one person
saying it over and over again. So gas lighting touches
on that because if someone repeatedly tells you, oh, you're
you're overacting, you're being sensitive, over time, you're going to
start to think in your own head, like, I guess

(03:40):
I'm over reacting and being sensitive. And this is different
than the occasional like differences in memory or denials or
blackout drunk behavior. Um, everyday gas lighting as it's called.
This could be human error or defensiveness, but that doesn't
mean it isn't harmful. But today we're gonna mostly focus
on deliberate use of gaslighting. Yeah, it's funny you mentioned

(04:03):
blackout drunk. Um. We have a glad of great examples
from pop culture. But there's well netsticks in my mind,
which is this book Girl on a Train. Have you
ever read it? Um, I've been pretty open about my
love of drink the show like when you when you're
someone who drinks or that you have use substances that
like mess with your memory. That can be its own

(04:26):
kind of weird. Um. I don't say gas lighting, but
it is a bit where you you kind of are
dependent on others around you to fill in like oh,
what did I do last night or what happened last
night or whatever? Um, and how sort of that can
leave you kind of vulnerable for that kind of behavior
sometimes gaslighting. A gaslighter will use that to their advantage

(04:48):
or to like further because they want to control the
other person. So if you're dependent on a substance, then
they might like both encourage you to get more addicted
and then like blame you for it, and also like, yeah,
control the narrative of what what did you do? And
girl on the Train is a great example of that

(05:08):
or that's pretty much the whole plot spoil Yeah, oh yeah,
he hasn't been out for a couple for a while.
Oh boy, he was like um. The name gas lighting
comes from a ninety nine British stage play called Gaslight,
which was later produced into two films, the UK's nineteen
forty gas Light and in nineteen forty four in the

(05:30):
US under the same name, starring Ingrid Bergman, and the
plot of the movie is about an abusive husband doing
his best to convince his wife she's losing her mind. Um.
He does so by convincing her she's a kleptomaniac and
the sound she's hearing in the dimming of the gas lights,
she is seeing her all in her head, so she
won't know what the real truth is that her husband,

(05:51):
who was married to Ingrid Berms characters aunt, is trying
to find the family's lost jewels that's hidden in the house. Um.
Oh yeah, and he murdered the aunt by the way
for the jewels. Yeah, no, biggie. But it just goes
to show how it's all about controlling her ability to
perceive things realistically, and that he uses that as a

(06:12):
way to conceal his own bad behavior. Yeah, exactly. It's
you're flipping it around too. Usually, um, when it's in relationships,
since it's to hide like cheating or if you've got
like a gambling addiction and you want to turn, you
want to flip the script around and put it on
the other person. So yeah, this movie pretty much encapsulates it,

(06:37):
and it did become the term she finally realizes at
the end. She clings to the fact like these gas
lights are dimming, these glass lights are dimming. And the
only way she like realizes that, yes, they are dimming,
she is not losing her mind is when the police
show up at the end and they say, well, the
guess it's so dim It was right the whole time, Yeah,

(07:00):
not crazy, Yeah, which is why, Um, an important thing
is to have like a support group or people outside
of that relationship that can verify the truth for you. Yeah.
I had a friend who had a major gas lighter
in her life, and one of the ways that the
person used gaslighting was by trying to make her think

(07:21):
her her own friends like her, the outside sources that
you were saying, trying to break down the trust there.
And so this person would say things to her like,
you know, well, your friend agree. I talked to your
friend and they agree with me, And it's like, no,
they didn't. That's a made up thing. But by if
you say that enough, you start to not trust the
people that you look at as your as your support system,

(07:43):
and your trust system your outside people. And so I
really was able to see that as a tactic of
isolating her, making her feel like they were the only
person that would tell her the truth and be real
with her, and they were all that she had, and
that the people that she grew up with that she
considered like her sisters, like her support we are actually
you know, talking about her and you know I thought

(08:04):
she was being crazy. Yeah, And that is a hallmark
of a gas lighter. They will try to bring in
your support group and either like break down the trust
with them or even say like, well, Annie agrees with me,
and even though I don't like they're just gonna group
use me two further their their control in the relationship,
their power and relationship. And since UM Gaslight the movie

(08:28):
came out, there's now so many examples of this in media,
and one of the biggest known recent ones that maybe
people who watched it didn't pinpoint is Jessica Jones. The
main villain in that kill Grave is gaslighting her all
the time. He's telling her without like because he does
have special powers, but without using them. He's telling her like,
this is what happened. You were remembering things wrong. I

(08:50):
know it happened. You don't know what happened. And she
even uses the technique that, um, some survivors are are
is helpful for some survivors to come back gas lighting,
where she sights the names of her old streets to
like reinforce her truth, to remind herself, no, this is,
this is I know this is it's at the gaslights
in Gaslights, Yeah exactly. So it's interesting, So like finding

(09:13):
something that you can cling to if you've seen, UM,
that's such a thing in movies, like, UM, what's that
movie that's kind of terrible and everyone loved it? Um,
could it be where they go into people's dreams. Yeah, um,
is that the movie where they have the thing that
you know? This is how I know? Yeah, it's interesting

(09:36):
how finding that tangible thing that you can cling to
that you know this, This demonstrates my ability to perceive
reality correctly. That seems to be a recurring thing with gaslighting,
and how you can combat it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Another
big example in movies that I ran into a lot
was the Truman show. Oh yeah, the Changeling, which is
based on a true story. Have you seen that one,

(09:57):
Bridget It sounds familiar? Have I seen it? It's about um,
it's about Angelina Jolie. I think it's a it's a
kind of a period piece. Maybe I'm probably way off,
but in this century period piece. Um, And she loses
her child and like weeks passed and the police are like, hey,
we found your kid, and she's like, that is not

(10:18):
my kid, Like, nope, it really is that your kid.
I can't believe you can't remember him. You must be
a terrible mom. And she's just like everyone's telling me
this is my kid. I know, this is not my kid.
He doesn't fit in like the same clothes. But the
police go through epic links to convince her that that
is her kid or that she has lost her mind.
She ends up in insane asylument. Why did they do this,

(10:39):
I think because they were embarrassed. I know in the
true story that the kid died, it was like twenty
they found twenty kids in a grave or something. I
think they were trying to cover up some kind of
embarrassing failure on their part by gaslighting Angelia and Julie
and getting her locked in an insane asylum. As you do,
right does? Um? That's a lot like a Flight Plan,

(11:02):
which is a terrible movie, but I saw it in
the theater. Have you ever seen flight Plan? Basically flight Plan?
It's not a very good movie, but I did see
it in the theater. Um. Jodie Foster. She arrives to
an airport with her child, but the child is scared
to go through t s A, so she hides him,
and she hides the child, and I think it's a
girl under her coat. Security videos don't joke her going

(11:22):
in with a kid. The kid is later kidnapped, I
think by terrorist or something, and they basically try to
convince her. They're like, you didn't have a kid she's
like what, and so, of course, because she's a woman,
she thinks I'm crazy, you know, I'm It's funny how
the victims of gas lighting. It's not, it's not only women,
but it's interesting how, particularly in pop culture, when it
is women, women are so quick to beat to think

(11:45):
I'm quote unquote crazy, like something's wrong with me, and like,
you're right, my perception of reality is warped. I wonder
if that's a gendered thing. Yeah, I I would say so,
And we are going to touch on that a little
bit more later. But I do think women are more
likely to be dismissed as crazy or hormonal is at
that time of the month for you, like yeah, blaming

(12:06):
it on on those types of things. And I think
that women largely have internalized that and maybe are more
quick to blame those types of things as well, especially
like that, Um, I think about nagging all the time,
that like you're nagging wife, and I think a lot
a lot of women are afraid to have that label
and afraid of that label in general. And so even

(12:29):
if this is I've mentioned before my thirty page on
the dishes, my thirty page dishes, Even if you're totally
right to ask for help, and it comes off as nagging.
I think that. Yeah, that's just a term that has
been very useful for getting out of doing the dishes,
among other things. We had a whole episode on Annie's

(12:54):
opinion dishes that would be like a ten part many
thories and me just mostly dissolving into and another thing. Um.
The one more thing I want to touch on in
the movie verse of gas lighting is UM. A lot
of horror movies, like The Shining, Our Clockwork Orange purposefully

(13:15):
gaslight the audience by um making continuity errs so that
you're never quite sure, like did I see that? I
don't maybe I didn't see that. The Shining is the
ultimate example of that, because when you watched that movie,
at least for me, I find myself pausing and going
back and thinking I just saw a flash of something
very disturbing, didn't I, And then you have to go
back and make sure that you did in faccie it. Yeah,

(13:37):
it's pretty effective. Thank you for gaslighting me, Stanley Kubrick. Yeah. Conically,
gaslighting is classified as a type of narcissistic abuse, particularly
malignant narcissist. In this case, the narcissists uses the target
for validation and esteem while simultaneously detesting the targets of victimhood.
Gaslighting is gradual, starting out small, but eventually leading to depression, anxiety,

(14:01):
and isolation in the target, making him or her even
more dependent. And here are some of the hall marks
telling outright lies. By doing so, by setting the bar
so high with something that's like obviously a false statement,
the gas lighter undermines your ability to know if anything
else they say is true or not. A lot of
the lies they invoke include someone you care about, Like

(14:23):
we mentioned, um, this person agrees with me, she thinks
you're overacting to Sometimes in the survivor community, this is
called a flying monkey because you're kind of sicking. You're
flying monkeys on on them and sort of, you know,
building a network of people who you will rely on
to undermine the victim's sense of reality and itself. Yeah, exactly.

(14:44):
At the same time, they call people and the media
that call into question the reality they're feeding you liars
if it is in opposition to what they're telling you.
That also sounds kind of familiar denial of something they
said are did, even if you produce proof, even in
the face of outright proof and once again this sets
you off balance. Um, it makes you question your reality,

(15:06):
trivialization of your feelings. Gas lighters often attack things that
you care about. Their actions don't match their words. Occasionally
they offer you kind words, um, words of encouragement, and
it's kind of reminds me of the cycle of abuse
as well, where it's like, oh, I'll never do it again,
I love you and all these things like I failed
this one time. But then it's it's a cycle. And

(15:27):
they do this to confuse you because then you're like, well,
they said this nice thing about me, and maybe they're
not all bad. How could they be bad. He's being
so nice to me now, how could he be an
abusive person when he's making me feel so good in
this moment. I must have had him all wrong. I
must be sensitive. I must be misunderstanding the situation. Yeah, exactly.
And it further confuses you, and confusion is the best

(15:48):
friend of a gas lighter. Gas lighters often project their
own failings or issues. They turn it around on you,
so you're the wrong doer. They might act hurt that
you've accused them of such a thing. They dismiss she
was crazy hormonal. How dare you say that about me?
I would never do that. I mean, you must be
really out of your mind. You should I worry about

(16:09):
your mental health if that's that's really what you think.
And to extremes of When a gas lighters question here,
she may resort to threats of physical abuse, especially if
like they sense that their whole game might be up
and the techniques commonly deployed by gas lighters or things
like withholding. And this is when the gas lighter refuses

(16:31):
to listen to share emotions, feigns a lack of interest
or understanding. Costic example of this is I'm not listening
to this again tonight, countering or questioning the target's reality.
You're wrong about that last time? You have an over
active imagination. You never believed in me. I feel like
that one is probably really common in relationships with therese infidelity,

(16:52):
saying you know, oh you're you're so paranoid, you're so
jealousy that was I've had people in my life use
that one, you know, obscured cheating again, if you say
it over and over and over again, and you say
you're really jealous, You're really jealous, you really jealous over
and over and over again. You know, you're getting upset
about nothing. You're inventing things to be upset about because
you're jealous and paranoid, even if you're not a jealous person,

(17:13):
like I'm not a very jealous person, but someone saying
it over and over and over again. By the end,
I'm apologizing for this person who was like cheating on
me because I'm apologizing like, oh, I'm I'm just mean
being I'm you know how you know me, I'm just
so jealous by the end of like, wait, sepack, I'm
not actually jealous and actually you are deceiving me. But
it's interesting how repeating those countering claims over and over

(17:37):
again can really you can really internalize them. Yeah, I've
definitely seen that play out in a friend's relationship where
he would call her jealous all the time, and he
would even go so far as to be like, well,
I saw you hanging out with this one dude like
one time, like maybe you're the one. Yeah, maybe I
should be looking into what you're doing. It's it's pretty insidious.

(17:59):
There's black and diverting, which is flipping the conversation around
to question the target. So, yeah, you're hurting me on
purpose or stop nagging me, trivializing I'm dismissing the thoughts
or feelings in the gas of the target of the gaslighting,
and denial, I don't have to take this, you're making
this up. Stuff like that. As we've kind of touched on,
it can take place in all sorts of relationships, in
the workplace, within a family with a significant other. A

(18:22):
lot of times it's a partner trying to hide a relationship.
It can take place in a lot of different settings,
and it seems like something that's kind of fairly common.
According to the National Domestic Violence Hotline, around eighty percent
of people that call in have experienced some type of
mental health coercion. Some of the symptoms of gas lighting
that they list on their site include constant second guessing yourself,

(18:42):
feelings of confusion, asking yourself if you're being too sensitive
multiple times a day, constantly apologizing to your gas lighter,
constantly excusing a gaslighter's behavior, or withholding information from friends
you won't have to make excuses. A feeling like you
can't quite articulate that something is wrong, telling lies to
avoid getting put down, or having the rug pulled from
underneath you having a hard time making decisions, feeling that

(19:03):
you used to be a more confident and relaxed person,
feeling like you can't do anything right, and feeling like
you're constantly letting your partner down. But when I was
on this website, I saw at the top I had
instructions for a quick exiting of the website, not being
able to return by using the back button, so that
if someone came up behind you, that makes me that's

(19:23):
very real. Yeah, that broke my heart. So gas lighting
has a really long history, and we're going to talk
about it after a quick break for a word from
re sponsor, and we're back, Thank you sponsor. Okay, So

(19:45):
gas lighting probably honestly has been taking place as long
as people have had relationships with each other and have
trying to manipulate each other. But one example I found
of it that I loved was Hans Christian Anderson The
Emperor's New Clothes And if you don't remember or only
have vague memories of the Disney movie, this fairy tale
revolves around an emperor who loved his clothes to the

(20:06):
point he spent all of his money on them, and
two swindlers came to town one day claiming that they
made fabrics more wonderful than anything you've ever seen, and
if you couldn't see those fabrics, it meant you shouldn't
have your job because you were incompetent. And of course
the emperor wanted them because by putting him on, he
not only figure out like who thought he was unfit
for duty, but he doesn't be looking super super fly,

(20:29):
So he paid the swindlers a huge amount of cash
for some new clothes with the most magnificent fabric, and
the swindler set up two big looms and got to
weaving with invisible read non existent thread um and the
fabric wanted to ask how they were doing it, he
didn't because he didn't want to appear stupid, as if
he thought himself incompetent because he couldn't see the fabric.

(20:50):
And the Emperor calls the trustee honest town minister to
describe what he sees, but the minister is afraid of
the same thing. He doesn't want to be called stupid
and unfit for his job, so he's like, oh wow,
how be would a full look at this fabric? And
the Emperor's like, oh boy, oh no, I can't see anything,
so he calls in more officials, and the trusted officials
say the same thing because they also don't want to
appear stupid. So the Emperor pretends he can see them too,

(21:12):
and the swindlers up the price. They say, we gotta
We're gonna need more fabric, and the Emperor's advisors are like, wow,
this is the most beautiful thing. You've got to wear
it in your procession that's coming up. And then for okay, um,
the swindlers finished the clothes. They held them out, describing
them as light as the spider's web, as if you're
wearing nothing. I'm sure they were very like the infer undressed,

(21:35):
and they helped him put them on. They went through
like a little miming thing. Everyone complimented him on the fools,
and then he he did the procession completely naked, and
everyone except the kids. The kids were like, he's he's naked,
but all the adults were like, no, we're good at
our jobs. We can see those. So that's just a um,

(21:58):
I thought, a funny kind of that's the gas lighting
on a not national but local scale. Yeah, kind of
the same abill all these people buying in if we
fast forward past the play in films that we mentioned
in the beginning. Um In psychologist named Edward vine Schell
wrote an article called Some Clinical Consequences of Interjection. Gaslighting

(22:20):
and interjection was the term he used to explain the
transfer of psychic conflicts. One person externalist and projects, and
the other person incorporates and as simbilates. Books and self
help blogs about how to shut gaslighting down proliferated soon after,
with strategies like narrative repair that relies on a counter story,
and the most research and articles have been about gaslighting

(22:41):
and relationships. Recently, it's gotten more sort of nationwide attention,
society wide attention, I guess. Take this quote from shay
m a Fete over Everyday Feminism. She writes, I believe
that gas lighting is happening culturally and interpersonally on an
unprecedented scale, and that this is the result of a
societal framework where we pretend everyone is equal while trying

(23:01):
simultaneously to preserve inequality. And that is something I definitely
definitely feel in my experience. This is folks who say
things like, oh, we're all equal now, the races are
all equal, and so while me is a woman of
color and experiencing inequality. The nation is sort of refusing
to agree that this is happening. And so it is interesting,
and part of it is that you internalize it and

(23:23):
you think, oh, I'm over sensitive, I'm making you know,
it's so easy to shut this down, right, like someone saying, oh,
you make everything about race, which people have wrote into
this very podcast, I thought about me, and you know,
it's really quite something to have people insist that we
are living in an equal nation, equal for along spectrums
of gender, race, sexuality, class. It's really quite rich to

(23:46):
have those people say, oh, you make everything about race,
when we live in a country where everything is about race, right,
It's quite interesting that people use that tactic, and it
is it does feel a bit like gas lighting. Oh absolutely, yeah,
it's exactly what you said, you make everything about races.
It's just a way of it's similar to the boyfriend
telling you like you're just jealous. Like it's a way

(24:07):
to just say, nope, we're all equal here. You're the
ones you're still fighting about trying to stir something up.
Shay m a Fete on Everyday Feminism. She wrote that
a lot about that, and she wrote that minorities that
face stereotypes about mental capacity are particularly prone to gaslighting. Yeah,
and the more widespread the term has become, the more

(24:28):
deluded the meaning, and the more often it's used to
gaslight almost it muddies the water around rational disagreement. And
we're talking more on a societal and cultural level now,
although this can happen in relationships. And we'll get into
this after one last break for a word from our sponsor,

(24:53):
and we're back, Thank you, sponsor. And this brings us
too far. I know bridget has been itching fun this
is I've, I've, and he's had to give me that
not yet, not yet. Look because I'm raring to go
on this, but all the song's gonna jump right into
it for it. Donald Trump a gas lighter in chief,
I would agree with you, bridget Um. I remember because

(25:15):
I started out just reading basically how the podcast started.
As I was researching that. That was the first thing
I was talking about, was like signs of a gas lighter.
And I was like, huh huh oh, because it all
sounded very familiar. If you're like me, you've probably seen
headlines in the past year, so that pretty much say
the same thing like Donald Trump is gaslighting America from
teen Vogue. The Trump campaigns were on reality made me

(25:37):
question what I saw from the Washington Post. I'm a Republican,
Why is my party gaslighting America? From Politico. So we're
not the only ones that made this connection. We're not
the only ones. And some of you might be thinking,
wait a minute, donald Trump not gaslighting the country. I've
actually seen headlines that question that that that pushed back
on this narrative that he that we were being gas

(25:58):
lighted at a national scale by our current president. As
we talked about in this episode, a hallmark of gas
lighting is trying to make you believe things that are
not true, even when presented with proof. Just today, Donald
Trump was presented with a video of him saying something
he did not say and still clings to it, right, Like,
Donald Trump will say things that are verifiably untrue, things

(26:20):
where it's like, oh, you're on video, or oh here
is proof, or oh we have a photo of you
doing this, and he'll say, no, I didn't do it,
and and it sort of becomes its own kind of
reality in a kind of way. This is this. This
is a small example, but a Kim lying about the
crowdside of inauguration, Kelly and Conway said, he's presenting alternative effects.
Numbers are numbers. If you say a number and the

(26:42):
different number is higher or lower, I mean, that's not
there's not an alternative to that. That's just how these
things work. Another example is that the Trump administration contends
that sixty five people died in Hurricane Maria and Puerto Rico,
and Harvard University came out with the study just this
week that said, actually, that number is more like four
thousand over four thousand, and his administration basically is refusing

(27:05):
to to acknowledge these plain facts. Yes, and when they're
presented with the obvious proof, it becomes fake media fake news,
which we touched on the beginning that that is one
of the hallmarks of dismissing the thing that counters your narrative. Yeah,
and making you feel unsettled and all kilter because you're

(27:26):
seeing this blatant proof and to be told, nope, that's wrong,
and to make things about race again, as I always do,
because you know that's nothing. Um. Think about the way
that Trump talks about people of color in this country.
He'll go on TV and say things that are blatantly racist.
And then I'll say, oh, quote unquote, the blacks are

(27:47):
doing better they than they have So not only is
that like not he break down the numbers. That's actually
not a true thing in and of itself. But he
will get on TV and say people of color are
doing great under my administration while simultaneously being really racist.
He does the same thing with women. He'll get He'll
get on TV and say women are making more money
than they've ever made under my administration, while at the

(28:09):
same time bragging about grabbing women by their body parts. Right,
And so it is a way of saying of sort
of denying a kind of victimhood in a way where
we all can see that you are doing things that
are not okay, but you are refusing to let that
reality linger and in a kind of a using it

(28:30):
against us. Yeah. Absolutely, And a lot of the things
we've been talking about do match up with the behavior
Trump in his cabinet. The dimssile of reality, the constant
refrain of fake news, the contradictions to undermineing over the press,
the outright lies, and this all adds up to the
so called post truth era where a lot of us feel, yeah,
very unbalanced and very like daily grind. Yeah. I think

(28:55):
I've talked about this a little bit on the show,
but my post election vibe was very much that way
that I felt in a kind of way that I
couldn't I was having trouble. This sounds like an exaggeration,
but I'm not exaggerating. I felt like I was having
trouble grasping reality and understanding what reality was because I

(29:15):
feel like I probably kind of like never recovered. I
feel like I spend a lot of time seeing things
and thinking like what you know, it's just it's And
I think that's also a homework. They say that's a
hamework of of you know, bad rulers politically, that they
overwhelm their citizen read with so many things. We're like,
how could that be? Oh that's oh, how could that be?
How could that be? Where by the end of it,

(29:36):
you don't know, like up is down, black and white,
you don't know what's what your best bet? According to
some articles we found, kind of combat this constant deluge
of what is reality? UM is to fact check everything everything,
educate yourself on what outlets are reputable. UM and Communications
professor Melissa Zim Dar's has compiled tips recognizing fake or

(29:58):
miss leading news sites. As it was a thirty page
spreadsheet of these sites. It's really helpful. I have a
lot to say about this as somebody who has worked
in journalism and media a lot. The way we talk
about fake news, I mean, this could be its own episode.
But so fake news. If you are really familiar with media,
you know when someone says fake news, like you know
what they mean. It's a very specific thing. But because

(30:21):
we live in and Donald Trump as our president, fake
news is sort of almost lost its meaning. So when
a reputable news source gets a report wrong and they
retract it, which you know, it's it's a drag and
it happens, it's not fake news that happens, and you
know when so a good examples when ABC released this
report on Michael Flynn that they ended up having to retract.

(30:43):
They retracted it, they apologized, they said, here's what we
got wrong. The reporter who who presented that report was suspended.
All the things that were supposed to happen happened. You know, journalism,
you should be able to trust your media and your
and your journalists just like any other profession in there.
They make errors and make mistakes, and there's a protocol
for that. That is not fake news. And so the

(31:04):
fact that that has been sort of conflated with stories
that are flat out bogus, you know, stories saying that
Hillary Clinton is running a pedophile ring from the basement
of my neighborhood DC pizza shop, and we have proof
that is a headline. There is no there's nothing about
that that's accurate. So that is fake news. But when

(31:27):
CNN gets a report wrong, admits, it retracts, it takes
the appropriate the steps that have been appropriate forever to
do that, that's not fake news. And I feel like
that's another way that Donald Trump has been able to
use this, this kind of gas lighting to confuse people,
that people think that a story saying that Hillary Clinton

(31:48):
is actually a draco reptilian, you know, she's got scales
under her clothes is on par with ABC getting a
story wrong. Yeah. Yeah, it's really just heartening because I've
I guess this is ultimately a good thing. But now
if I'm on a site where I don't immediately recognize

(32:08):
the name and don't immediately like kind of know that
their trustworthy, UM, I have a moment of like, I
better check out what this is because it could be
totally fake. That's an interesting thing too, because just people
are so willing to believe things that fall in line
with what they want to believe. Yes, some people. I mean,

(32:30):
I'm going to try to keep it under under control.
But I've got on some rants about this. Particularly Facebook
I think is as you know, a culprit and it's
trying to rein it in, but I would argue as
doing it badly. Do you know those things on Facebook
that was like look back on your you know on
this day. I was certainly a culprit for that. Not
that long ago. I was sharing things that were fogus

(32:51):
because they aligned with my world view at the time.
And I don't think that we realized that bubbles that
we were creating on one and we did that because
it felt. It feels so good when you read something
you're like, yes, finally share, and then you share and
all your friends shared, and it really shows how susceptible

(33:12):
we all are too information and content that's not actually real.
I actually don't think it's our fault. There is this
thing I want to stay on CNN where this woman,
like a journalist came to her house and they said, hey,
we have proof that this Facebook group that you've been
a part of is actually run by Russian boats. And
they were like, here's the proof, and she she refused

(33:34):
to believe it, and a lot of people were like,
that woman is so stupid, you know, blah blah blah.
We don't really live in a country that has a
media that is helps inform a citizen rate. Like we've
kind of moved a little bit past that, And part
of me thought, this woman, I mean, it's almost sort
of not her fault in a kind of way that
she's so easily duped and believes it so much when

(33:55):
we just don't live in a country that make that
gives people the resources and makes those resources readily available
for people to have a more critical lens. I completely,
I'm on the same page with you there. Um media literacy.
We wanted to do a whole like podcast and that
was always going to be as media literacy. Maybe we
should revive the idea to teach that in college. God yeah, my,

(34:17):
Like when I was teaching Howard are one oh one
uh unit was on media literacy actually was a really
fun course. Man. Maybe we should have like a little
recurring check in, check in. So all of this has
been triggering for survivors of gaslighting and relationships that depended

(34:38):
on gas lighting. All of this like kind of Trump
cabinet and just discussion of whether or not it is
gas lighting. And then for people that it feels very
much like gas lighting who have lived through it, it's
been a difficult period. And over at the Guardian Aerial,
lev Um offered these tips as someone who survived gas
lighting as a child, stay defiant, Recognize that they will

(35:00):
never be accountability. The gas lighter will never take responsibility
for their actions or come around to your point of view.
I want to talk about that one briefly. Um, I
have a long term relationship with a gas lighter in
my life and it's not that kind of relationship that
I could sort of cut off. And that one, I
think is super super hard because it's so easy to

(35:22):
sort of get caught in this idea of I'm going
to prove them wrong and you know, compile evidence, and
you know the lengths I went to try to get
this person to admit that they were gas not not
even admit they were gaslighting me, but to admit that
they were not telling the truth, not saying something correct.
It almost was not worth my own sense of self.

(35:44):
It almost was exhausting emotionally for me. And so having
to recognize, I will never the accountability I want. I'll
never get it. I could spend my whole life waiting,
and this person will never be will never say I
lied about this because I wanted to control you, and
I'm sorry, I'll never get that. And having to admit

(36:04):
that and own that is really really hard, and it's
like a constant struggle. But I think that as people
who are victims of this kind of of narcissistic abuse,
it's so easy to kind of be a lawyer, and like,
you know, I used to think, like, oh, I'm gonna
I'm gonna record them with my phone and there my pocket,
and so when they say they didn't say X, I'll
play it for them and then I'll hold it under
their nose. We'll have to admit it. And I used

(36:26):
to have these wild fantasies of of finally getting my
my you know, of getting them to admit this. And
then I had to say, I'll never get hit and
I have to stay defiant and I have to just
let it go and that's that's another another way to
deal with it. You gotta let go of the wish
that you have for things to be different, because they
probably won't be different. Like my the person in my

(36:46):
life who was a gas lighter. That is how this
person is, and I have kind of let go of
any hope that our relationship will be different because this
is how it is. And I have to just stay
defiant and and be confident about my own approach and
my own understanding situations, and yes, set those boundaries like
you were saying earlier, say I am behaving in an
appropriate way. What I'm asking for is completely reasonable. The

(37:09):
way that I'm perceiving the situation is reasonable, and not
get sucked into this to this toxic vibe where this
other person sets the reality. And so you could be
being totally normal and they're saying that you're being unreasonable
or jealous or petty or this or that, are ungrateful
like any of the fill in whatever your gaslighter is
saying here. Yeah, I'm a firm believer that people will

(37:32):
justify their actions and make them correct. They will do
what they have to do, like the mental acrobatics they
need to do to justify what they're doing and make
it okay. So people are not going to take accountability
for things if it means admitting to themselves that what
they're doing is wrong, and they'll have to stop. I
think that is unfortunate, but very rare that people would

(37:53):
actually turn around, and yeah, you'll waste a lot of
energy trying to change someone. And I have a friends
who to your point about like producing proof that she
usedid this like unshakable faith? I think the thing that
we all kind of want to have unshakeable faith in
the certain things are like this is real, the numbers
are there's no alternative facts. This is it. And to

(38:15):
have that, to present that and have it dismissed is
kind of frightening, and it kind of shakes your well,
if I can't if that's not going to change things,
if that's going to be just shoved aside as if
it's not facts. It's a difficult concept and a frightening
concept to grapple with. And she said it really shook
her that she had this faith in that and then

(38:38):
it didn't matter. Yeah, so that it's tough, Like none
of these things are easy. Another thing that Aerial recommended
was develop a healthy detachment distinguished between the world of
the gas lighter in the real world. And for me
that's that's been helpful because I too have a gas
lighter in my life. Eventually, I just had to be like,
he sees a different world than me, and I know

(38:59):
that what I'm saying I can verify with other people,
that's the thing, But he's not seeing that. Yeah, that's
that's been helpful doing with my gas lighter as well.
Where in my situation there are so many flying monkeys,
so to speak, where it's just easier for them to
give it and say, yeah, this this warped version of reality,

(39:20):
that's not true. Let's just say it's true, right, Like
this person could be saying could be wearing a blue
shirt and say it's red, and everybody just out of
sheer exhaustion and say, yeah, I guess it's red. And
having a little bit of a detachment from that for
me has been really helpful and saying when I know
that this is just how the this this is the
world they live in, and for whatever reason, they've convinced

(39:41):
themselves that this is reality. But I know reality and
I know what's reasonable, and I'm not going to play
the game of even getting caught up into this, and
it is hard, it's very hard. It's so tempting to
get sucked into it and you know, get mired in it.
But that attachment that love speaks to, I think is
so critical. Yeah, and to your point, the exhaustion that

(40:02):
is a that's a hallmark of gaslighting. And said, eventually
you just get worn down and you're like, okay. And
it's often compared to like the frog and the pot
of water as it gets hotter and hotter, because it's gradual,
gradually wearing you down. And I did want to include
this example of from the Washington Post story we mentioned earlier.
It was about um by a journalist who witnessed Trump's

(40:23):
campaign manager at the time, Korey Lewandowski, grabbing and yanking
another reporter in Michelle Fields. When the Trump team they
denied it outright that it ever happened, and the reporter
who saw it ben terrorist. He started to doubt what
he saw because there everyone else was asking him, I'm like,
are you sure you saw that? Even said I remember
that reporter even said they had never met. Yeah, and

(40:45):
they were one thing on video. Yes. Well, then the
video came out, and the chump team doubled down. They
were like, Oh, that's nothing, you're all over reacting. The
reporter kind of writes about how he started researching false
witness accounts and maybe what if I didn't am I
seeing what I am, I remembering what I think I'm
remembering correctly, what if I'm not, And how it kind

(41:07):
of it brightened him a little bit because it gave
him a taste of just having your whole reality put
into a question. Um, And that's kind of what Trump
has been doing when he's dealing with accusations of sexual
assault too. He's like outride Glide that said he's never
met them, when proof exists that he had. We got
you on camera, mother, Like it takes some real goal

(41:31):
to be like I never met that person. It's like, oh,
well we did meet and okay, Like it's like that
that's saying they call a narcissists prayer that didn't happen,
and if it did, it wasn't that bad. And if
it was, it's not a big deal. And if it is,
it's not my fault. And if it was, I didn't
mean it. And if I did, you deserved it. Wow. Yeah,

(41:51):
pretty much. That's that's it. So when we talk about
recovery from gas lighting, being able to pick up on
gas unting behaviors and recognizing them for what they are
is a huge step. Having a support system is really
vital too, to help you regain your footing in reality.
UM Codependence anonymous might be helpful. It's c O d

(42:13):
A dot org. And it's important to not to blame
yourself for not having trusted yourself. Gas flighting is really
effective and it is gradual. You shouldn't blame yourself for that.
Another tip is redirecting anchoring statements when you catch yourself
romanticizing your abuser or employing repetition of the truth in
your favor. This could be inform of something like documenting
the truth, seeking self validation, and really is thinking about

(42:36):
things like doing reality testing with people that you trust,
sort of talking to someone who you know can confirm
that you are perceiving things accurately and sort of relying
on them to help you help you sort through this. Yeah,
and I read a lot of examples of UM, like
keeping a journal and seeing so and so said I'm
a terrible person and that I'm I'm good at these things,

(42:59):
and he's saying, I'm terrible for this reason when I
know that I didn't do this, and like just keeping
reaffirming and writing that down, having something that you can
look to and remember, like like proof if this is
something that you have dealt with, or you know someone
that is dealt with. The phone number for the National
Domestic Violence Hotline is one eight hundred seven seven two

(43:23):
three three. That's one seven nine nine seven two three three,
or I can chat with someone online at the hotline
dot org. Hopefully this is at least given people tools
to recognize this behavior, because I do think that is
really important. I hope so too. And if you're dealing
with gas lighting out there, we want to hear what
tips have you used to cope with it? How's it

(43:44):
ben for you. I'm sure it's something that can feel
very isolating, and you know you don't have to deal
with it alone and you shouldn't have to, so definitely
reach out to folks, and we want to hear from
you as well. Absolutely, and that brings us to Listener mail.
Our first letters from Brittany Britney wrote about her journey
to feminism. I'm not really sure where it began. But

(44:05):
like one of you mentioned, Bridget, I think I've always
been into those feminist girl power shows. I loved Buffy, Charmed, Xena,
et cetera. One of my favorite was Broona Kamar. Such
an independent female lead that also takes care of business
and fights to help everyone around her no matter who
it is. The show is the reason that I'm such
a huge fan of Kristen Bell, because Christen Bell is
great and Ronne camrs it's really good it is. I'm

(44:27):
pretty sure I love all of those shows you mentioned
when I when I was in my formative years as
well and still now. One of the other reasons she
goes on is music related. I was extremely obsessed with
Destiny's Child since I was in middle school. I'm twenty
six years old. Pop R and B and rock music
helped me get through my rough teenage years. My parents
divorced when I was in the second grade. Later, my

(44:47):
mom was depressed and my dad's been a lot of
time in jail prison, so I didn't get a lot
of guidance or attention in middle school or high school. Luckily,
I turned out pretty okay anyway, Destiny's Child was a
clear obsession of mine and I always had a lot
of inner thoughts of being an independent young woman and
doing what I wanted to do, regardless of what others
or society thought of it. Oh the ladies independent, throw
your hands up at me. Oh I love it. I

(45:09):
could we could do an episode on Destiny's Child. My
favorite thing about Destiny's Child is how Tina Knowles would
always design those tacky but actually amazing costumes. So we'll
be One of them would have the pants version, one
of them has a shorts version, one of them had
the dress version. You know the best. I had a
picture of them on my finder for two years. It
was great. Another album in particular that sticks in my

(45:30):
mind is Christina aguilarra Is stripped particularly Can't Hold Us
Down as a pretty epic choice to me when it
came out. This again reinforce this girl power vibe that
I love. Another obvious choice from this album is also Beautiful.
Um sang that at Talent Show. Nailed it to Bridget.
Next time we do karaoke, I am going to try
to push you to that one's really good. Also, the

(45:51):
song that she did on the Mulan soundtracks really good.
She had as it's a classic she's so good reflections.
Oh you know a song. Yes, people don't think of her,
but she made a lot of good songs for young
people who were going through and like wanted to feel
adult feelings. You know. Gene and a bottle Baby got

(46:11):
to rub me the right way. Last, but not least
Fighter was also very important because it taught me that
no matter what I was going through, I'd make it
through okay, because I was strong and could get through anything.
I set my mind too. So thank you so much
for writing. Oh yeah, we connected to a lot of that, Brittany, obviously. Obviously, Brittany,
let's come talk music. Yeah, it'll be like a Destiny's

(46:35):
Child slash outbursts of singing podcast which who wouldn't want
to listen to that? Who wouldn't Anyone who's heard me
at karaokes like, um me, yes, I have a terrible voice.
Thank you for that letter. I have one from Aaron.
Aaron wrote, just heard the episode on the NFL Cheerleader's
a great job, and you mentioned that you hadn't heard

(46:56):
women say quote, I have a son in the same
way a man might say, I wouldn't split women I
have daughters. I thought I would share my experience with
hearing that phrase. Surprise women still lose. At my conservative
Christian college, Spring harolded a group of form posts from
men to the general effect of ladies, please cover up
your sun dresses are causing us men to have impure thoughts.
Several arguments back and forth, and usually one that says,

(47:18):
we're your brothers in Christ and you're making a stumble.
That's pretty bad. But the ones I found particularly poisonous,
or the ones from other women that said things like
I have brothers and future sons and I don't want
them to be in moral danger. This is striking because
it's basically tells me that the only way a woman
could have an opinion on the subject is by taking
on the male gaze and speaking from that perspective. Moral

(47:40):
of the story, sun dresses are a paraful weapon, and
the Pentagon to check into deploying them if we're interested
in bringing down the male gender. Sun dresses. I've long suspected, Oh,
because we're at a sundress in the studio, came equipped
her battle. That's right, always got a sun dress ready

(48:01):
to go. So thank you to Aaron and Brittany for
writing You two can write to us and we would
love to hear from you. Our email is mom Stuff
at house to folks it dot com, and you can
find us on the social means on Instagram at stuff
I've Never Told You and on Twitter at mom stuff. Yes,
and thanks for listening, and thanks as always to our producers,
Dylan Fagan and Catheine Kogan