October 28, 2015 • 45 mins
From Bewitched to American Horror Story: Coven, Hollywood has loved casting women as witches. In this Halloween episode, Cristen and Caroline discuss why witches are arguably the best female archetype on screen and their ideal witch squad members.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to stuff. Mom never told you from house to works,
not come hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen
and I'm like Caroline. Something big happened last night afore
I watched The Craft for the first time. And you're
(00:24):
how old? I'm thirty and I watched The Craft for
the first time. Gosh darn at Caroline was raising a
very conservative home and movies with the cult themes were
not allow. What about slumber parties? They weren't allow. You know,
I went to slumber parties, But I never saw The Craft.
I just never saw it. I was obceased with it.
Tell me more because that's why that I loved that movie.
(00:47):
I was equal parts like terrified and adoring of Perusa
Ball in that movie, like her use of dark lipstick.
I so admired. You can still try to pull it off, Caroline.
I was about to say pull it off, the decided
to add the try too, because it's a tough look.
It is a tough look, and I am very pale.
My skin tends to get a little ready, especially when
I'm embarrassed, and I feel like a dark, dark, almost
(01:11):
black red would just not look good on me, or
just make your lips pop. You know, I was so
surprised watching it that a movie made in nine six,
it still felt fresh to me. I mean, maybe it
was just like skeet Ulric's face just shining through on screen.
(01:31):
I don't know. Maybe it was their cool semi coordinated outfits.
Maybe it was the soundtrack, which I kind of now
I want to buy and yes on CD, just you know,
for nostalgia. Um, but it was really good. It's a
great movie. And then I realized though in preparing for
this episode, so not only was I like super excited
(01:53):
to maybe potentially chat about The Craft, but I started realizing, like, wait,
there are a lot of great which is that I
love in movies that I've seen over the course of
my life, Like which is the movie which is with
Angelica Houston. Yeah, that's the purpose of this entire podcast.
I know. Well I was. I just enjoyed my trip
(02:13):
down memory lane. So should we save some of your
favorite witches for later in the podcast? Sign? I know,
because I'm only asking because I could sit here and
talk along. Because also not as big of a thing,
but another thing that happened last night before I watched
The Craft for the first time, I watched teen which
for the first time and have not seen that. Well,
(02:38):
well here we go movie, I've seen, Buddy, you haven't
how the tables have turned, Caroline. They have literally what
slumber parties have you not been to? You know? So
it was either the Craft or wild Hearts can't be
broken now that I have seen so many times tragic
love story. We'll do another podcast episode on Versus in
(03:00):
swimming Pools. So, dear listeners, Halloween is coming up at
least at the time that we are recording this podcast,
and we got to talk about witches and nothing really
to do with the history of real live witches, but
witches especially on screen, because the more you start thinking
(03:22):
about the appeal of witches, I'm not talking about like evil,
witchy witches like the Wicked Witch of the West. I'm
talking about like witches in the craft, like your Angelica,
which in the witches that you love so much, Like
why do we as ladies love which is so much?
(03:43):
Because a lot of times which is are associated with evilness, ugliness, spinsterhood,
and yet there's this whole other, bigger group of witches
that are associated with cunning and power and fun. Well,
I think even the witches that are associated with evil
and ugliness and spinsterhood are still delivering a big old
(04:06):
middle finger to convention. But I mean, especially if we
are talking in terms of like pop culture and and
movie and TV representations. When you any time I feel like,
because Hollywood is not only sexist but agist, anytime you
have a woman over like thirty, Uh, that's like, oh
my god, how are we going to cast her? Uh?
(04:28):
And so yeah, the fact that a character could potentially
be older, she could maybe wear one of those like
fake witch noses and a fake witch wart, it's like, yeah, yeah,
screw you convention and beauty norms. So who was the
first witch you saw on screen? Caroline? I don't remember.
(04:49):
I don't know, I have any hunches. I mean it
was I mean, speaking of the wicked Witch, it was
probably the Wizard of Oz. I'm guessing mine was the
Wizard of Oz too. Yeah, but it was it was
shortly thereafter. I mean, I know I saw the Wizard
of Oz for the first time. I was very very young,
but it wasn't too long after that I saw the
roll Doll movie interpretation of of Witches. Yeah, I gotta
(05:11):
tell you, I am obviously really catching up in terms
of pop culture, which is because like I said, growing up,
which is we're not something that we're welcome in my household.
And you know, my parents were doing and what they
thought was right. But I feel a little sad that
I'm not as as which knowledgeable as well you and
(05:35):
like all of my peers, like anyone of your generation. Yes,
it's fine, but it's it is really fascinating. Even even
I who have not seen all of the possible witch
movies their artists, e um, can understand this historic symbolism
that we do see reflected in a lot of our
(05:55):
most beloved witches on screen. Because what do witches represent?
I mean power, they really connote women's power, you have intuition, fertility, sisterhood,
spinsterhood even Yeah, and they're also defying that normal patriotic
normal patriotic they hate this country. They're all communists. Yeah,
(06:23):
not to mention, of course, they're defying the normal patriarchal
social order. And what I love, you know, talking about
power and the social order and everything. And I'm going
to continue sighting the movie Witches is that these women,
for instance, in that movie, all of these witches are
together at a convention at a hotel. And it's so
funny thinking back on that movie and realizing that the
(06:45):
way that strikes me now is like the way that's
so many business centric like women's organization conferences go. I mean,
they're not witches. So what do you mean by that?
Oh well, it's just it's like it's it's say, a
witchy version of networking. God, is what it feels like.
You've got all of these witches at a convention at
(07:06):
a hotel. They're having like their annual meeting, their netwitching.
Yeah that's so perfect. That's so perfect. Can we start
that LinkedIn spin off site net witching that witching? Well yeah,
and we need to actually have that in real life. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
I'm serious. We're gonna host it. Right, We've got so
(07:27):
many stuff on invertold you side businesses just popping up
left and right. We should really start to write them
down at some point. I do like it though, And
listeners will email us in like a few weeks later
and like remind us of bands or random products. So
we've talked about launching. Yeah, we still get emails about
the potential Sminty menstrel Cup Men's stroll cups, menstrel cup
(07:51):
Well back to witches though, from periods to witches. I
feel like that is a perfect segue or a book title,
from periods to witches. Um. Someone who wrote an entire
book about which is Catherine Howe, who wrote the Penguin
Book of which is put this Whole, which symbolism perfectly
in an interview with NPR where she said, what made
(08:13):
which is dangerous in the early modern period makes them enticing.
Now here's a case of a figure, a person, a
woman generally laying claim to power that doesn't belong to her,
that should belong only to God, or should belong only
to people in authority, and she's taking that power for herself. Yeah.
And the New Inquiry echoed the sentiment a little more poetically.
(08:38):
I would argue they sounded like they got drunk, they
maybe had too much red wine and wrote an ode
to which is uh? They said, in a male supremacist society,
female power must logically appear illogical, mysterious, intimate threatening, which
stands for all of those unnamable shadow acts of disappearance
and withdrawal, self cultivation and self medication that a leude
(09:00):
the social and sexual order. So which is I mean,
which is are a lot to put it very eloquently, Yeah,
wrapped up in that witch hat, You've got a whole
lot of messing with convention So Hollywood so called Season
of the Witch. Yeah, donovan reference any fans out there.
(09:21):
Uh makes so much sense because this is such a
rich character to play around with, and it's one that
has been really popular in the past four or five years,
especially with help from Harry Potter. We have her Maiani,
who pops up on every single listical about best most
(09:42):
favorite awesome witches in pop culture of all time. Well,
so does Maggie Smith's character, right, Yeah, Yeah, she's a
common one too. I'm gonna admit something, admit I have
never never read, nor have I watched any Harry Potter
Caroline are in box? Like just hear it from I
just heard the tippy typing of people being like, what
(10:04):
is wrong with you? And I don't I don't know.
I just let it pass me by as a social phenomenon.
Do you need to take a vacation so you can
read up Caroline. I'm shaking my head at you, conquer
only for the pronunciation of Caroline. Um well, I don't
know about any of that, but I do know that
Maggie Smith looks great in a witch hat. She does?
(10:25):
She does? I mean, I say, you know, uh, this
fall bonnets were supposed to be, you know, come into fashion.
It's not a true thing. That was a true thing,
and bonnets are not going to happen. But I would
be behind trying to make witch hats happen, you know,
could we get can we combine the slouchy beanie and
the witch hat? Absolutely? Caroline? Um, But back to television, okay,
(10:50):
sure again. So it's really funny to see how the
witch craze has been reported in entertainment media. UM. And
two thousand eleven, the vampire craze kind of gave way
to witches on TV and in the l A Times
Melissa Mayor's reports for network seeking female viewers and mean
(11:11):
girl heroines, which is offered the perfect double threat because
which is cast girls quite literally in control not only
of their lives but of entire worlds. So you have
witches appearing that you're in true blood the CW's the
Secret Circle and a wicked witch slash queen appearance and
(11:33):
once upon a time, so everyone's like, oh, my gosh,
which is here everywhere. We're having a witch moment, and
we were apparently still having a witch moment, according to
Mary McNamara over at the l A Times. Uh. She
gives the examples of American horror story Coven, which is
apparently very controversial among people, depending on if you think
(11:53):
it's like the best thing ever or the worst thing ever.
So we'll talk about it, Caroline good, okay, Also the
Witches of East End, and which characters appearing on Sleepy Hollow,
the Originals, Supernatural and more. And if it sounds like
I'm reading off a lift, I am, because I haven't
watched any of these things. I'm sorry to say. I'm sorry. Well,
(12:14):
she I mean there were so many though that A. Yes,
it does make up a list, and McNamara declares the
year of the Witch. I mean, so, I mean arguably
we've already past peak witch. Oh, I don't know, you
don't know. Yeah, I mean, like, I agree, I think
that we're we're still really enamored with witches. Um. But
(12:37):
McNamara really got me thinking a lot about this longstanding
pop cultural symbolism, of which is because um, she tidally
sums up their appeal to television creators, saying and a quote,
and it's a long quote, but it's a good one,
which is are handy solution to other more pragmatic narrative problems.
(13:01):
They can be old and wise and still beautiful. There's
that ages in Caroline. They're allowed to commit acts of fury,
sex and violence, still the hallmarks of important drama that
would be far less acceptable from a mortal female character.
And they often come in groups, which is how television
(13:21):
writers like women. And I'm now imagining Sex and the City,
Sex and the City recast as a coven. Were they
just a coven the whole time? Yeah, I mean that
just changes everything. It's like Garfield without dialogue, Garfield without John,
you know, it's John without garth people, which is so depressing.
But no, I think that's such a fascinating, perfect quote
(13:42):
that hits all of it right on the head in
terms of, uh, allowing women characters to get away with
stuff that they wouldn't normally. I mean that's so it's
not necessarily something I think about all the time, but like, yeah,
that's that's absolutely true. Imagine if you had just your
run of the mill average late on television who was
being in some way sort of evil or doing something
(14:05):
perceived as evil, we wouldn't have any sympathy for her,
whereas if she's a witch, it's like, oh, well, it
makes sense, I love this, Let her do more of
it well and interesting too to think about the whole
age beauty thing that we often see come up with witches,
where it's so rare to see a woman portrayed as
hauntingly beautiful and mesmerizing if she is over a certain age, right,
(14:30):
But that's often so part like a crux of these older,
more evil witches. Evil witches. You know, you can't be
a good witch necessarily and be old and beautiful. But
if you're both, then you're probably more evil. I don't
know from my from my casual which observations that's anecdotal. Well,
I mean, but that's that's like such a plot device anyway.
(14:52):
I mean, you mentioned how vampires gave way to witches
in terms of pop culture craze. Sort of combining these
ideas is the movie adaptation of one of Anne Rice's novels.
I can't remember what the title is now, but it's
the one where Aaliyah is starring as the ancient vampire
queen and how gorgeous she is, and she's so beautiful,
and her beauty is this big thing. And she's also
(15:14):
very young and gorgeous and all of that stuff to
to super emphasize how beautiful she is. But being that
she's a vampire queen, she's also a bajillion years old,
and it's that same thing. It's like, oh, well, here's
a woman of a of a significant age, but oh
it's it's Aaliyah. Don't worry, she's still real pretty well.
And speaking of the vampire thing too, something it might
have been McNamara uh and some other people have pointed out,
(15:36):
is how interesting it is that which is followed up
on the heels of the vampire craze, because vampire lore
sprang out of Victorian panic over female sexuality essentially, and
so to then have these powerful, often sexual, self possessed
(15:59):
women and follow in the wake of the vampire craze
might say something too, including that I might be reading
a lot into television. Well, no, I mean also uh,
pop culturally speaking, um, which is this entire episode? Um.
More recently, all the representations of vampires for the most
part have been dudes, like look at Twilight, you know,
(16:21):
like the handsome, shiny vampire man boy. But now you
were getting more and more witches and they're they're all handsome,
handsome women. Handsome some handsome women, which very much a
side note. I like the adjective handsome for women. I
say we bring it back, Katherine Hepburn, What a handsome woman.
(16:42):
I'm going to offer you a transition now, Kristen. Yes,
one handsome woman that we can talk about is one
Elizabeth Montgomery. Oh, she of bo witch fame indeed. Okay,
So here's the thing listeners to keep in mind as
we're talking about all of this symbolism of witches, and
especially when it comes to women's power and sexual agency.
(17:05):
When we look at old school witches in pop culture,
a lot of times the name of the game is
to repress your witchiness in order to better fit into
society's little boxes, or to use your powers, however expressed
or repressed, to serve the men in your life. So again,
(17:26):
going back to Mary McNamara's l a Times piece, she
notes the social symbolism of which is on TV starting
with Samantha Stevens played by no twitching Elizabeth Montgomery on
but which which premiered in nineteen sixty four, notably the
(17:46):
same year that the feminine mystique hit bookshelves. Yeah, so,
at the same time that Betty for Danna is saying
that housewives are afraid of asking the question that's bouncing
around in their brains, of the question that has no name, Caroline,
this all, Samantha the Witch is emphatically saying, yes, this
(18:07):
is all, and it's everything. She her entire happiness is
wrapped up in her devotion to Darren and Judy. D
O'Reilly wrote an entire book about this so called Bewitched
effect and the bewitched archetype. The book is Bewitched Again,
Supernaturally Powerful Women on Television to two thousand eleven, and
(18:29):
she really put a lot of these pieces together. It
was really interesting reading so deeply into Bewitched because I
had never before felt angry feelings about Bewitched. I'd really
never felt feelings about Bewitched at all, and then it
made you upset. It did. Yeah, it got my panties
a little bit. In a twist, I've got to tell you, well,
(18:52):
she quotes Samantha Stevens, which is obviously Elizabeth Montgomery's character
in which as saying I happened to think cooking on
the stove is more fun than using witchcraft lies Steven's
you know that's a lie. Um, what would Indra say
to that? You know? She has a quotes TV Guide
in a profile of Elizabeth Montgomery and her husband Bill Asher,
(19:13):
who plays Darren, saying that this character of Samantha would
rather scrub the floor on her hands and knees for
the man she loves. It is emotional satisfaction she craves.
And I just I'm like, I'm just imagining, like being
in a real, like actual adult couple where people have
to clean up after each other and like take care
(19:35):
of a home together, And I'm like, I would not
rather scrub the floor on my hands and knees as
a way to show love. I'd rather use my freaking witchcraft.
Speak for yourself. We all know you love to load
the dishwasher, and honestly I do too. I read do
the way that my boyfriend does it. But here's the thing.
We might be jumping ahead of ourselves a tiny bit
(19:56):
for listeners who aren't familiar with the Bewitched premise, Let's
let him know what's going on here. Because it's not
just the thing of Samantha Stevens is a nineteen fifties
housewife or should I say nineteen sixties housewife and also
a witch. I mean the in the pilot, we have
her and Darren get married, and on the wedding night
(20:18):
she finally reveals that she's a witch, and he flips
out and he's like, the only way I'm going to
stay married to you is if you keep your witchcraft
in check. I didn't marry a witch. I married a
wife and also learn how to do all of the
domestic goddess stuff. Yeah, and also go to dinner I
(20:38):
think every Friday. It is at his mother's house. So
he has his whole list of requirements for her. And
she is like, Okay, I think you're I mean, your
jaw is just so square. I must I must relent.
I don't mind. But that whole premise was perfectly normal
for the audience back then. Yeah, I mean, keep in mind.
(21:01):
In that same TV Guide article that I mentioned, and
it was in n there was one was he a
TV executive. He was someone who was commenting on this show,
and he said, a witch who's interested in being a
housewife to an American male is interesting. If she just
went around being a witch, nobody would care. Basically that
(21:21):
Darren is uh Samantha's motivation for doing anything anything, And
it's so fascinating to see how all of the profiles
of Elizabeth Montgomery at the time emphasized her devotion to
her husband, who was also a producer on the show,
and so they kind of tried to like cast them
publicity wise as the real life the Witched couple. Oh,
(21:44):
but don't worry. She loves doing chores. She really loves
doing chores, and she never wants to go do press
and have to travel without him. So even though she
might play this witch, calm down, She's actually just a
wife who at one point they were talking about how
she still managed to get up before him and make
him breakfast in bed with like orange juice and coffee.
(22:06):
Um every morning, because because Bill breakfasts in bed. Kristen
lucky Bill I would loved it. Well, my boyfriend does
actually cook breakfast. Um, I am I'm a lucky girl.
You're a Bill. You're a lucky Bill. I am Bill,
I am Bill. We're all bill um hashtag We're all
bill um. But it was just one more supernatural sitcoms
(22:29):
of that era, which I think is interesting also in context.
You've got I dream of Genie, my living doll, which
that's a robot, my mother, the car that's a that's
a car, the Flying Nun, the Adams Family. Um, these
shows are all equating the bizarre, the alien, the magical
with the feminine. But like I mentioned earlier, all of
(22:50):
these women in these shows have these fantastic extra powers
that tended to just be used for the benefit of
the men in their lives. Basically, I mean, especially if
you look at my living doll, which is like it's
a robot for the guy, I feel like that could
go a really negative direction. And I dream of Genie.
She's like so submissive, she just and and she's adorable.
(23:10):
And yes, it's a cute show and it's adorable anthers,
but it's such like a capsule of its time of like,
I am a magical, empowered woman, but I'm going to
set that aside to do whatever i can to empower
you man in my life. And also Caroline, I know
Jennie Barbara Eden was not allowed to show her belly
button on television. Oh that's right. She was the first
(23:32):
Taylor Swift. Yeah, well Taylor Swift is allowed to obviously,
she just won't. She won't. Um. But if we look
at the witch it is interesting, as O'Reilly notes in
her book of how Samantha's witchcraft problematizes the household environment.
So she asserts that this witchcraft is symbolizing womanly rebellion.
(23:55):
And you do see this like market contrast and how
conventionally attract Jove, Samantha is versus and Dora, who is
her unmarried, wild red haired mother who's just flitting about
and hates the fact that Samantha is so devoted to Darren. Yeah,
I think hashtag we're all in Dora. Yes, it's not
(24:18):
that you Okay, wait before you write me a letter.
It's not that we shouldn't be devoted to our loved ones,
our partners. I'm just saying we could all use a
little bit more eyeshadow. That's exactly what I'm trying to say. So, Yeah,
some do see Bewitched as a landmark for women because
of its break from traditional form and for Samantha's ability
(24:39):
to wield some power over her household. But it's interesting
that you can literally use the same evidence from the
show to argue that it's empowering versus it's disempowering. So
you've got things like the idea that Darren in in
the figures of his wife and his mother in law
and and also Samantha's aunts, that he's confronting this like
(25:00):
powerful magical matriarchy and and that is amazing and empowering. Um,
you've got the idea that being a housewife, being Darren's
wife and giving up or promising to give up her
witchcraft was her choice, and that that's empowering that she
chose that life over another. But the thing is, her
power still is all for the sake of Darren and housework.
(25:25):
So she promises him right that she's not going to
use it, and then when he's away at work, she's like, well,
I'll just use a spell here to to do the
dishes and have the dishes be clean. And then when
Darren is like struggling at work, she's like, well, I'll
just use a spell to like help him along. But
the thing is, like you said, her magic always ends
up like causing wacky hijinks to happen, to ensue and
(25:49):
causes problems. So for that reason, O'Reilly is less convinced
that she that Samantha is as empowered of a character
as we really really really want her to be. Yeah,
using that same evidence of choosing housewifery. Um, whereas some
people would say, hey, the choice is empowering, some other
(26:11):
people would argue, well, she chose the safe, non magical option,
but really fascinating nonetheless, to just consider it in that
cultural context, because it does seem to present just a
snapshot of like, of things that were happening beyond the
set and outside of of people's homes. As times we're
(26:33):
starting to change for women. And speaking of that, um,
O'Reilly notes how in the seventies, these more supernatural women
like say I dream of Genie or be Whiched give
way to super heroin so you have Wonder Woman and
the Bionic Woman, for instance, and then in the eighties
and nineties you have superpowered women focused on quote proving
(26:57):
themselves to male authority figures and using their powers to
serve others and fearing repercussions if their powers are revealed.
And this is a continual theme of hitting up against
male authority figures and of the fear of being mothered
essentially by virtue of your power being put on public display. Yeah.
(27:19):
She sites shows like Charmed, Sabrina the Teenage Witch, and Buffy.
She says they presented a veneer of empowerment while facing
constraint after constraint. And I wasn't really into Sabrina the
Teenage which I was super into Buffy. I watched Charmed
in the beginning, and I just love to think of
Shannon Doherty as a witch. I just think that that
(27:42):
that was perfectly cast. She's got a witchy face. Well, yeah,
and she's got a witchy reputation. It's got a witchy reputation.
I would take that as a compliment. I would not
mean it otherwise. Um. And it is in this era
that these pop cultural whitches are often considered freaks and
are still fighting against domestic related constraints. Not terribly removed
(28:05):
from Samantha Stevens, although Buffy probably far more removed, but
you still have you know, like Sabrina having to deal
with things at school and then her house, and a
lot of times like the girls in Charmed are like
at their house right, and like dealing with dealing with
life is three sisters who are witches and handsome magical men.
Oh man, I love a handsome, magical man. And this
(28:29):
was something too that jumped out to McNamara and writing
about pop culture's love of witches in the l A Times,
because she says that these what she calls supernaturally powerful
women are usually under watch by mail authority figures and
are usually compelled to use their power in service of
(28:52):
other people rather than their self. Whereas she writes and
start contrast, supernaturally powerful male character is found on programs
such as small Ville and The Dead Zone do not
experience these same constraints. So it's like, even when we're
which is, or we're supernaturally powered in some kind of way,
we're still women. Yeah. And one of the examples that
(29:15):
she cites, and speaking of Buffy, is Buffy's relationship not
a very good relationship with her high school principle, who
expels there because he thinks that she killed another slayer
when in fact that slayer was killed by a vampire.
Take your breath, um, But yeah, and so there's that
like male authority, male power uh up again butting up
against like sort of a more innocent, spunky but powerful
(29:39):
young girl. So basically, which is are us hashtag, hashtag.
We have so many hashtags from this episodo, which is
our us. That would be a great store, that would
be a good another side business for us, Caroline. The
empire continues to grow. Um. But here's the thing, it
is usually very limited for trail of who us is.
(30:02):
If we if we look at most of our pop
cultural witches, they're typically white, middle class, conventionally attractive, straight,
and able bodied. But I mean we would argue that
maybe it has to be this way in order for
Hollywood to sign off on it. I mean, if they're
gonna build a whole franchise around it, then yeah, you've
(30:24):
got to make them um attractive in this way because
witch crones, those evil, old warty crones gonnaly be evil,
and the prettiness mollifies the transgressive aspects of practicing witchcraft.
So basically, it's like our to bring the teenage witch
were an unfortunate looking girl, would she have been is
(30:46):
popular or did we need her to look kind of
cute in order for us to be like, okay, cool
that we like that combination of like you've got a
cute face and you can also be witchy. It helps
that she was Clarissa explains at all mean that's true. Yeah, well,
I mean you've got the example also, though, of Melissandra
on Game of Thrones, who is like exceedingly beautiful and always,
(31:11):
even though it's so cold outside and she's always in
the snow, she's wearing dresses that are cut down to
a belly button. Alessandra, come on, I know your hair
doesn't keep you that warm. Put on a shirt. Do
you want a hoodie? Cut? I just always want to
give her a hoodie. Well, Caroline, you clearly don't know
that which blood is much hotter than human blood. She
is always setting people on fire. Uh so that's the thing.
(31:33):
But I mean a counter example would be true bloods
Black male, which Lafayette very true. Yeah, I mean, I
think there have been a few more examples of diversifying,
Which is probably most prominently of late would be American
horror story Coven, which presented age wise and ethnicity wise,
(31:56):
a far more diverse coven than we've probably ever seen
on network television. But a lot of people were pretty
disappointed with it in terms of how Ryan Murphy I mean,
and this is something that um, Ryan Murphy I think
just kind of tends to do with a lot of
his shows, and yes, I have been watching Scream Queens
is focusing the plot more around unquote cat fighting among
(32:19):
the witches and also some kind of straight up racist
e portrayals of the black witches that left a lot
of people scratching their heads. Um, So a lot of
people felt disempowered by Covin. Yeah. I talked to a
Holly it's stuck in this in history class about this
because she was like, what are you guys doing this
(32:40):
week time? I'm like, witches? Oh my god, you have
to watch American horror Story, Kevin. And what did she
think about? She freaking loved it. Really, She strongly disagrees
with the idea that a all they're doing is portraying
these women of catfighting and infighting and be that it's
disempowered ring at all. Granted, I mean she's a super
(33:02):
fan and all that stuff, Like, I've never seen it.
All I know is that I Kristen, and I read
this article um that was describing how disappointing it was
for people who wanted it to have been so much
more for for showing both powerful and empowered women working
together and not just focused on men or relationships or
(33:25):
marriage and babies or anything like that. Um, and how
it fell short in a lot of people's minds. Well,
I mean that was one article though. Yeah then, but
so what though did Holly like about it, aside from
like disagreeing with what critics had to say. Oh, I
mean she she completely on the opposite end of it,
thought it was empowering, and she thought it was She
just loves witchy things and thought that these women were incredible,
(33:47):
and that Jessica Lang and Angela Bassett were incredible. She
loved the relationships that these women had and that they
had power. She she loves Kathy Bates and thought Kathy
Bates was great. Although several places that we looked at
had Kathy it's like the most problematic, but I don't know,
I haven't seen it. Maybe, well it could also be
an example of one of those things where it's like
everything you like will ultimately be problematic. Yeah, that that
(34:10):
is the true statement always, And maybe we should have
Holly back on just to talk about Kevin. Doesn't matter
if Halloween has long passed, Hollyween. Hollyween, So, I mean, nevertheless,
any kind of problematic portrayals aside and I only say
problematic in that goofy voice, because yes, it has become
(34:31):
a word that has bandied about far too much and
it's kind of losing its meaning. But um, all of
these witches that we're talking about still often make for
a vast majority of us ultra satisfying female characters. We
love to see witches. So who are our favorites? Because
(34:52):
one of my one of one thing that delighted me
the most to discover and researching for this episode is
just how many best of there are. It's like, if
you have a blog, if you have a lady site
of some sort, you've gotta have some kind of roundup
of your favorite witches. Well, I think it's an excellent
convergence of things we've talked about before in terms of
like fandom and girls fandom in particular, and the fact
(35:15):
that you've got these characters who are female and who
are empowered to some degree, and so it makes sense
to me that you would have a bunch of like
top ten, top twenty, top a million, which characters on
television and movies. Well, and one thing that didn't strike
me until Kelly Busman over at Jezebel pointed out was
that if you have a show or a movie about witches,
(35:38):
it probably automatically passes the Bechdel tests because you have
a group of women with names talking to each other
and probably not about dudes all the time. Not about
dudes all the time. Although you know, one of my favorite, favorite, favorite,
favorite favorite which movies is hocus Pocus, and I would
(35:59):
have to go back and see for sure, because the
whole thing is throughout that whole movie they're so trying
to uh, they're trying to destroy Thackeray Banks, who is
a little boy who then turns into a cat. Have
you seen have you seen hocus Pocus? Oh god, it's
so good. We should totally. I don't know if anyone
would tune in for like a two hour periscope, but
(36:21):
we should totally periscope was watching that or at least
live tweeted it is my favorite. But yeah, they are
very concerned with with killing Sachery Banks and so it's
a fabulous movie. But they do talk about a boy
quite a bit. Do they have a conversation just about
the cat? Maybe we just refer to it as the cat.
(36:41):
Maybe that could count. Let's do that. Let's have an
event where we live tweet checking to see if hocus
Pocus passes the Bechdel test. Hello, I'm sure it does
at some point. That's that's the stuff that the Internet
is made of, Caroline, Yeah, exactly. I mean early on
in the movie. I think they're just like casting spells
and concerned with each other's yes, having makeover montages. I
(37:04):
wouldn't know. That's another movie. Um So, if we were
to amass our witch squad hashtag witch squad goals, who
would be in it? Well, for sure, I would say
the Sanders and sisters from hocus Pocus. I would also
say the two Ants and the two Nieces from Practical Magic,
(37:24):
which is another one of my favorite favorite movies, Andrew
Bullock classic. Well, also Stevie Nicks killing it on the soundtrack,
because you know she her whole witchy woman thing, Rannon,
that's all that stuff, keep going. No, no, no, no,
I will not. I'd also want um Nancy Downs from
The Craft, which is for as a box character, just
(37:46):
to like be my muscle. But also we can't leave
out Robin Tuney from that movie. She played Sarah because
she's like the good witch. Yeah. I liked I liked
her a lot Nancy Downs. I'm sorry, I don't think
that Nancy could be part of my squad because her
power might get out of control and I would have
to bind her, and then she find out that I
bound her, and then we'd have a fight. Now I'm
(38:07):
just saying we would just continually bind her finding herself
when we hang out, Nancy, would you put it out
and then we bind her? Let's find Nancy again just
getting out of control? Um? What about what about her Miami?
Would you want her mini there or would she call
too many of the shots? Oh? I don't know. I
haven't have I have no cultural reference for Harry Potter,
(38:30):
but I mean I know a lot of people love
her Moony and and her real life equivalent, and Watson
is like all hashtag key for she, So I mean
she can come alounch Emma Watson, this is your open
invitation to join stuff. One never told you Switch Squad
are coming. Someone let her press person know. Um, you
(38:51):
know who I would not invite in my Witch squad
having just seen it. And I haven't been able to
get this off my chest yet this episode. Okay, Louise
Miller played by Robin Lively of Teen Witch because Teen Witch.
While it does have some of the best rap scenes
ever put on film, um I did not support the
(39:13):
premise of that movie where she learns that she's a
witch and she uses her witch power to make this
handsome ll Bean catalog looking guy fall in love with her,
and it suggests in the film through some very close up,
very tongue heavy French kissing in a like random barn
(39:36):
or something that they run across, that they have sex
and she's like, oh no, what am I gonna do?
But the moral of the story is that he fell
in love with her for real z s and she
doesn't need to be a witch anymore because now her
hair is big and the popular guy still likes her
even though they've had sex, and it was just awful.
So it's just an when is it? When was it made?
(40:00):
I am guessing in like the late eighties early nineties,
so it's like an eighties update of Bewitched, sort of
like she's giving up her power for a dude. Yeah. Yeah,
um I was surprised at how how upset I was
at the end the credit started rolling and I was like,
is is it? This can't be it? Well, I would
also want to invite. Speaking of of the movie, which
(40:23):
is starring Angelica Houston, I would also I would not
invite her because she's evil, but I would invite the
main character boys aunt, who's the good witch. She's literally
dressed in white and she's blonde, compared to Angelica Houston,
who's dresed in black and has black hair. Um, and
this woman is like super Oh no, it's not his aunt.
His aunt takes into the conference. It's the white witch
(40:44):
at the end who comes and turns him from a
mouse back into a boy. I am sorry, listeners, but
that woman, I think she drives a convertible. I would
invite her. Well, this sounds like a pretty solid witch
squad so far, but I'm sure that listeners have more
suggestions for our which squad? Who else should we invite? Oh,
they'll probably say Willow from Buffy. Yeah, I would say, well,
(41:08):
you don't want evil Willow as long as it's good Willow,
have her come on. I mean also to Willow. Talk
about some TV history, one of the first positive portrayals
of a lesbian couple on television. We gotta do a
Buffy to the Vampire Slayer episode at some point. Let's
get back and rewatch all of it. Let's watch some
hocus Pocus, Let's watch some Buffy. Let's well, we have
(41:29):
to quit our day jobs to do this, but I
don't know, it's just tell working. Oh so I've been
Tella working wrong. Yes, yes, listeners, don't email our bosses. Well,
send us all of your witchy suggestions in any theories
as to why whiches are so enduring? Was there anything
that we missed in this which conversation? Because there really
(41:50):
are so many which is on film, big screen, small
screen to choose from, that we couldn't possibly mention them all,
including one last one Carol Mine, a movie that I
want to go back and watch. Is I Married a
Witch starring Veronica Lake, who was probably the most dazzling
witch because that hair is perfection. Yeah, So with that,
(42:12):
send us your witchy emails. Mom Stuff at house stuffwork
dot com is our email address. You can also tweet
us hashtag we are all in Dora at mom stuff
podcasts or messages on Facebook, and we've got a couple
of messages to share with you right now. I have
a letter here from Beth in response to our ath
(42:33):
Leisure episode. She says, I love the show. I look
forward to these bi weekly forays and feminist topics. I
just listen near ath leisure episode and I felt that
I had to write in. You mentioned that the rise
of ath leisure has led to women not dressing for
a male gaze, but I have found the opposite to
be true as a woman who comes from a religious background.
Too many times have I heard about the sin of
(42:56):
the yoga pant, and I appreciate that you use the
Stacy London singular pant. She says, These comments, made mostly
by men, point to how yoga pants help accentuate a
woman's curves, driving men to a lusty distraction. Very rarely, though,
is the discussion balance saying that while female clothing maybe
enticing to the male gaze, it's ultimately the man's responsibility
(43:17):
for how he responds. Instead, it quickly devolves into slut shaming,
making women feel guilty for wearing almost any article of
clothing that they find comfortable and or attractive, And with
fashions changing, modesty is a constantly moving target that unfortunately
seems to be predominantly from a male point of view.
As a feminist within this conservative community, I can tell
you it really steams my beings to feel subjected to
(43:40):
these arbitrary rules. So while I've been trying to open
up communications on what modesty is within my circle of influence,
I also have been buying the most comfortable and cute
luggings and yoga pants that I can find. I'll admit
that some days when I done them, I can still
feel a twinge of guilt or shame. But I try
to shrug that off and walk through my life with
my head held i and my stomach comfortably supported by elastic.
(44:03):
Thanks again for such a great podcast. I always found
the topics insightful and have many great discussions with friends
that have started with the phrase. So I was listening
to this feminist podcast today. Well, thank you, Beth. Loved
your letter. Well, I've got a letter here from Jen,
also about our at Leisure episode, and she writes, I
had to laugh because as I'm writing this and at
work in a full writing habit breaches writing socks, belt
(44:27):
tucked in shirt and vest, boots and chaps are in
the car to avoid tracking dirt everywhere. Writing clothes probably
aren't what you were thinking about when you were making
this podcast, but this is beginning to be more common
among equestrians. The clothes we buy for writing tend to
be fairly expensive as well as fashionable and flexible. The
breaches I'm wearing now are literally the most comfortable pants
(44:48):
I've ever owned, which makes sense if they need to
flex and move with you as you move on the horse.
I'm wearing these today because I plan on going writing
right after work, but there's definitely a status symbol of
wearing writing clothes in public. Not to be snobby, but
there's something satisfying about wearing actual equestrian apparel while everyone
around you is wearing equestrian inspired accessories that would fall
(45:10):
apart the minute you mounted a horse. It's just the
little thing that makes me smile. Anyway, I love the show.
Please give the episodes coming. They make my work day
fly by, and your letters help our work day fly by.
And you can send them to mom Stuff at how
stuff works dot com and for links to all of
our social media as well as all of our blogs, videos,
and podcasts, including this one with links to our sources
(45:32):
so you can read more about all that symbolism you
never knew existed and bewitched. Head on over to Stuff
Mom Never told You dot Com for moral thiss and
thousands of other topics. Does it How stuff works dot
Com
Welcome to stuff. Mom never told you from house to works,
not come hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen
and I'm like Caroline. Something big happened last night afore
I watched The Craft for the first time. And you're
(00:24):
how old? I'm thirty and I watched The Craft for
the first time. Gosh darn at Caroline was raising a
very conservative home and movies with the cult themes were
not allow. What about slumber parties? They weren't allow. You know,
I went to slumber parties, But I never saw The Craft.
I just never saw it. I was obceased with it.
Tell me more because that's why that I loved that movie.
(00:47):
I was equal parts like terrified and adoring of Perusa
Ball in that movie, like her use of dark lipstick.
I so admired. You can still try to pull it off, Caroline.
I was about to say pull it off, the decided
to add the try too, because it's a tough look.
It is a tough look, and I am very pale.
My skin tends to get a little ready, especially when
I'm embarrassed, and I feel like a dark, dark, almost
(01:11):
black red would just not look good on me, or
just make your lips pop. You know, I was so
surprised watching it that a movie made in nine six,
it still felt fresh to me. I mean, maybe it
was just like skeet Ulric's face just shining through on screen.
(01:31):
I don't know. Maybe it was their cool semi coordinated outfits.
Maybe it was the soundtrack, which I kind of now
I want to buy and yes on CD, just you know,
for nostalgia. Um, but it was really good. It's a
great movie. And then I realized though in preparing for
this episode, so not only was I like super excited
(01:53):
to maybe potentially chat about The Craft, but I started realizing, like, wait,
there are a lot of great which is that I
love in movies that I've seen over the course of
my life, Like which is the movie which is with
Angelica Houston. Yeah, that's the purpose of this entire podcast.
I know. Well I was. I just enjoyed my trip
(02:13):
down memory lane. So should we save some of your
favorite witches for later in the podcast? Sign? I know,
because I'm only asking because I could sit here and
talk along. Because also not as big of a thing,
but another thing that happened last night before I watched
The Craft for the first time, I watched teen which
for the first time and have not seen that. Well,
(02:38):
well here we go movie, I've seen, Buddy, you haven't
how the tables have turned, Caroline. They have literally what
slumber parties have you not been to? You know? So
it was either the Craft or wild Hearts can't be
broken now that I have seen so many times tragic
love story. We'll do another podcast episode on Versus in
(03:00):
swimming Pools. So, dear listeners, Halloween is coming up at
least at the time that we are recording this podcast,
and we got to talk about witches and nothing really
to do with the history of real live witches, but
witches especially on screen, because the more you start thinking
(03:22):
about the appeal of witches, I'm not talking about like evil,
witchy witches like the Wicked Witch of the West. I'm
talking about like witches in the craft, like your Angelica,
which in the witches that you love so much, Like
why do we as ladies love which is so much?
(03:43):
Because a lot of times which is are associated with evilness, ugliness, spinsterhood,
and yet there's this whole other, bigger group of witches
that are associated with cunning and power and fun. Well,
I think even the witches that are associated with evil
and ugliness and spinsterhood are still delivering a big old
(04:06):
middle finger to convention. But I mean, especially if we
are talking in terms of like pop culture and and
movie and TV representations. When you any time I feel like,
because Hollywood is not only sexist but agist, anytime you
have a woman over like thirty, Uh, that's like, oh
my god, how are we going to cast her? Uh?
(04:28):
And so yeah, the fact that a character could potentially
be older, she could maybe wear one of those like
fake witch noses and a fake witch wart, it's like, yeah, yeah,
screw you convention and beauty norms. So who was the
first witch you saw on screen? Caroline? I don't remember.
(04:49):
I don't know, I have any hunches. I mean it
was I mean, speaking of the wicked Witch, it was
probably the Wizard of Oz. I'm guessing mine was the
Wizard of Oz too. Yeah, but it was it was
shortly thereafter. I mean, I know I saw the Wizard
of Oz for the first time. I was very very young,
but it wasn't too long after that I saw the
roll Doll movie interpretation of of Witches. Yeah, I gotta
(05:11):
tell you, I am obviously really catching up in terms
of pop culture, which is because like I said, growing up,
which is we're not something that we're welcome in my household.
And you know, my parents were doing and what they
thought was right. But I feel a little sad that
I'm not as as which knowledgeable as well you and
(05:35):
like all of my peers, like anyone of your generation. Yes,
it's fine, but it's it is really fascinating. Even even
I who have not seen all of the possible witch
movies their artists, e um, can understand this historic symbolism
that we do see reflected in a lot of our
(05:55):
most beloved witches on screen. Because what do witches represent?
I mean power, they really connote women's power, you have intuition, fertility, sisterhood,
spinsterhood even Yeah, and they're also defying that normal patriotic
normal patriotic they hate this country. They're all communists. Yeah,
(06:23):
not to mention, of course, they're defying the normal patriarchal
social order. And what I love, you know, talking about
power and the social order and everything. And I'm going
to continue sighting the movie Witches is that these women,
for instance, in that movie, all of these witches are
together at a convention at a hotel. And it's so
funny thinking back on that movie and realizing that the
(06:45):
way that strikes me now is like the way that's
so many business centric like women's organization conferences go. I mean,
they're not witches. So what do you mean by that?
Oh well, it's just it's like it's it's say, a
witchy version of networking. God, is what it feels like.
You've got all of these witches at a convention at
(07:06):
a hotel. They're having like their annual meeting, their netwitching.
Yeah that's so perfect. That's so perfect. Can we start
that LinkedIn spin off site net witching that witching? Well yeah,
and we need to actually have that in real life. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
I'm serious. We're gonna host it. Right, We've got so
(07:27):
many stuff on invertold you side businesses just popping up
left and right. We should really start to write them
down at some point. I do like it though, And
listeners will email us in like a few weeks later
and like remind us of bands or random products. So
we've talked about launching. Yeah, we still get emails about
the potential Sminty menstrel Cup Men's stroll cups, menstrel cup
(07:51):
Well back to witches though, from periods to witches. I
feel like that is a perfect segue or a book title,
from periods to witches. Um. Someone who wrote an entire
book about which is Catherine Howe, who wrote the Penguin
Book of which is put this Whole, which symbolism perfectly
in an interview with NPR where she said, what made
(08:13):
which is dangerous in the early modern period makes them enticing.
Now here's a case of a figure, a person, a
woman generally laying claim to power that doesn't belong to her,
that should belong only to God, or should belong only
to people in authority, and she's taking that power for herself. Yeah.
And the New Inquiry echoed the sentiment a little more poetically.
(08:38):
I would argue they sounded like they got drunk, they
maybe had too much red wine and wrote an ode
to which is uh? They said, in a male supremacist society,
female power must logically appear illogical, mysterious, intimate threatening, which
stands for all of those unnamable shadow acts of disappearance
and withdrawal, self cultivation and self medication that a leude
(09:00):
the social and sexual order. So which is I mean,
which is are a lot to put it very eloquently, Yeah,
wrapped up in that witch hat, You've got a whole
lot of messing with convention So Hollywood so called Season
of the Witch. Yeah, donovan reference any fans out there.
(09:21):
Uh makes so much sense because this is such a
rich character to play around with, and it's one that
has been really popular in the past four or five years,
especially with help from Harry Potter. We have her Maiani,
who pops up on every single listical about best most
(09:42):
favorite awesome witches in pop culture of all time. Well,
so does Maggie Smith's character, right, Yeah, Yeah, she's a
common one too. I'm gonna admit something, admit I have
never never read, nor have I watched any Harry Potter
Caroline are in box? Like just hear it from I
just heard the tippy typing of people being like, what
(10:04):
is wrong with you? And I don't I don't know.
I just let it pass me by as a social phenomenon.
Do you need to take a vacation so you can
read up Caroline. I'm shaking my head at you, conquer
only for the pronunciation of Caroline. Um well, I don't
know about any of that, but I do know that
Maggie Smith looks great in a witch hat. She does?
(10:25):
She does? I mean, I say, you know, uh, this
fall bonnets were supposed to be, you know, come into fashion.
It's not a true thing. That was a true thing,
and bonnets are not going to happen. But I would
be behind trying to make witch hats happen, you know,
could we get can we combine the slouchy beanie and
the witch hat? Absolutely? Caroline? Um, But back to television, okay,
(10:50):
sure again. So it's really funny to see how the
witch craze has been reported in entertainment media. UM. And
two thousand eleven, the vampire craze kind of gave way
to witches on TV and in the l A Times
Melissa Mayor's reports for network seeking female viewers and mean
(11:11):
girl heroines, which is offered the perfect double threat because
which is cast girls quite literally in control not only
of their lives but of entire worlds. So you have
witches appearing that you're in true blood the CW's the
Secret Circle and a wicked witch slash queen appearance and
(11:33):
once upon a time, so everyone's like, oh, my gosh,
which is here everywhere. We're having a witch moment, and
we were apparently still having a witch moment, according to
Mary McNamara over at the l A Times. Uh. She
gives the examples of American horror story Coven, which is
apparently very controversial among people, depending on if you think
(11:53):
it's like the best thing ever or the worst thing ever.
So we'll talk about it, Caroline good, okay, Also the
Witches of East End, and which characters appearing on Sleepy Hollow,
the Originals, Supernatural and more. And if it sounds like
I'm reading off a lift, I am, because I haven't
watched any of these things. I'm sorry to say. I'm sorry. Well,
(12:14):
she I mean there were so many though that A. Yes,
it does make up a list, and McNamara declares the
year of the Witch. I mean, so, I mean arguably
we've already past peak witch. Oh, I don't know, you
don't know. Yeah, I mean, like, I agree, I think
that we're we're still really enamored with witches. Um. But
(12:37):
McNamara really got me thinking a lot about this longstanding
pop cultural symbolism, of which is because um, she tidally
sums up their appeal to television creators, saying and a quote,
and it's a long quote, but it's a good one,
which is are handy solution to other more pragmatic narrative problems.
(13:01):
They can be old and wise and still beautiful. There's
that ages in Caroline. They're allowed to commit acts of fury,
sex and violence, still the hallmarks of important drama that
would be far less acceptable from a mortal female character.
And they often come in groups, which is how television
(13:21):
writers like women. And I'm now imagining Sex and the City,
Sex and the City recast as a coven. Were they
just a coven the whole time? Yeah, I mean that
just changes everything. It's like Garfield without dialogue, Garfield without John,
you know, it's John without garth people, which is so depressing.
But no, I think that's such a fascinating, perfect quote
(13:42):
that hits all of it right on the head in
terms of, uh, allowing women characters to get away with
stuff that they wouldn't normally. I mean that's so it's
not necessarily something I think about all the time, but like, yeah,
that's that's absolutely true. Imagine if you had just your
run of the mill average late on television who was
being in some way sort of evil or doing something
(14:05):
perceived as evil, we wouldn't have any sympathy for her,
whereas if she's a witch, it's like, oh, well, it
makes sense, I love this, Let her do more of
it well and interesting too to think about the whole
age beauty thing that we often see come up with witches,
where it's so rare to see a woman portrayed as
hauntingly beautiful and mesmerizing if she is over a certain age, right,
(14:30):
But that's often so part like a crux of these older,
more evil witches. Evil witches. You know, you can't be
a good witch necessarily and be old and beautiful. But
if you're both, then you're probably more evil. I don't
know from my from my casual which observations that's anecdotal. Well,
I mean, but that's that's like such a plot device anyway.
(14:52):
I mean, you mentioned how vampires gave way to witches
in terms of pop culture craze. Sort of combining these
ideas is the movie adaptation of one of Anne Rice's novels.
I can't remember what the title is now, but it's
the one where Aaliyah is starring as the ancient vampire
queen and how gorgeous she is, and she's so beautiful,
and her beauty is this big thing. And she's also
(15:14):
very young and gorgeous and all of that stuff to
to super emphasize how beautiful she is. But being that
she's a vampire queen, she's also a bajillion years old,
and it's that same thing. It's like, oh, well, here's
a woman of a of a significant age, but oh
it's it's Aaliyah. Don't worry, she's still real pretty well.
And speaking of the vampire thing too, something it might
have been McNamara uh and some other people have pointed out,
(15:36):
is how interesting it is that which is followed up
on the heels of the vampire craze, because vampire lore
sprang out of Victorian panic over female sexuality essentially, and
so to then have these powerful, often sexual, self possessed
(15:59):
women and follow in the wake of the vampire craze
might say something too, including that I might be reading
a lot into television. Well, no, I mean also uh,
pop culturally speaking, um, which is this entire episode? Um.
More recently, all the representations of vampires for the most
part have been dudes, like look at Twilight, you know,
(16:21):
like the handsome, shiny vampire man boy. But now you
were getting more and more witches and they're they're all handsome,
handsome women. Handsome some handsome women, which very much a
side note. I like the adjective handsome for women. I
say we bring it back, Katherine Hepburn, What a handsome woman.
(16:42):
I'm going to offer you a transition now, Kristen. Yes,
one handsome woman that we can talk about is one
Elizabeth Montgomery. Oh, she of bo witch fame indeed. Okay,
So here's the thing listeners to keep in mind as
we're talking about all of this symbolism of witches, and
especially when it comes to women's power and sexual agency.
(17:05):
When we look at old school witches in pop culture,
a lot of times the name of the game is
to repress your witchiness in order to better fit into
society's little boxes, or to use your powers, however expressed
or repressed, to serve the men in your life. So again,
(17:26):
going back to Mary McNamara's l a Times piece, she
notes the social symbolism of which is on TV starting
with Samantha Stevens played by no twitching Elizabeth Montgomery on
but which which premiered in nineteen sixty four, notably the
(17:46):
same year that the feminine mystique hit bookshelves. Yeah, so,
at the same time that Betty for Danna is saying
that housewives are afraid of asking the question that's bouncing
around in their brains, of the question that has no name, Caroline,
this all, Samantha the Witch is emphatically saying, yes, this
(18:07):
is all, and it's everything. She her entire happiness is
wrapped up in her devotion to Darren and Judy. D
O'Reilly wrote an entire book about this so called Bewitched
effect and the bewitched archetype. The book is Bewitched Again,
Supernaturally Powerful Women on Television to two thousand eleven, and
(18:29):
she really put a lot of these pieces together. It
was really interesting reading so deeply into Bewitched because I
had never before felt angry feelings about Bewitched. I'd really
never felt feelings about Bewitched at all, and then it
made you upset. It did. Yeah, it got my panties
a little bit. In a twist, I've got to tell you, well,
(18:52):
she quotes Samantha Stevens, which is obviously Elizabeth Montgomery's character
in which as saying I happened to think cooking on
the stove is more fun than using witchcraft lies Steven's
you know that's a lie. Um, what would Indra say
to that? You know? She has a quotes TV Guide
in a profile of Elizabeth Montgomery and her husband Bill Asher,
(19:13):
who plays Darren, saying that this character of Samantha would
rather scrub the floor on her hands and knees for
the man she loves. It is emotional satisfaction she craves.
And I just I'm like, I'm just imagining, like being
in a real, like actual adult couple where people have
to clean up after each other and like take care
(19:35):
of a home together, And I'm like, I would not
rather scrub the floor on my hands and knees as
a way to show love. I'd rather use my freaking witchcraft.
Speak for yourself. We all know you love to load
the dishwasher, and honestly I do too. I read do
the way that my boyfriend does it. But here's the thing.
We might be jumping ahead of ourselves a tiny bit
(19:56):
for listeners who aren't familiar with the Bewitched premise, Let's
let him know what's going on here. Because it's not
just the thing of Samantha Stevens is a nineteen fifties
housewife or should I say nineteen sixties housewife and also
a witch. I mean the in the pilot, we have
her and Darren get married, and on the wedding night
(20:18):
she finally reveals that she's a witch, and he flips
out and he's like, the only way I'm going to
stay married to you is if you keep your witchcraft
in check. I didn't marry a witch. I married a
wife and also learn how to do all of the
domestic goddess stuff. Yeah, and also go to dinner I
(20:38):
think every Friday. It is at his mother's house. So
he has his whole list of requirements for her. And
she is like, Okay, I think you're I mean, your
jaw is just so square. I must I must relent.
I don't mind. But that whole premise was perfectly normal
for the audience back then. Yeah, I mean, keep in mind.
(21:01):
In that same TV Guide article that I mentioned, and
it was in n there was one was he a
TV executive. He was someone who was commenting on this show,
and he said, a witch who's interested in being a
housewife to an American male is interesting. If she just
went around being a witch, nobody would care. Basically that
(21:21):
Darren is uh Samantha's motivation for doing anything anything, And
it's so fascinating to see how all of the profiles
of Elizabeth Montgomery at the time emphasized her devotion to
her husband, who was also a producer on the show,
and so they kind of tried to like cast them
publicity wise as the real life the Witched couple. Oh,
(21:44):
but don't worry. She loves doing chores. She really loves
doing chores, and she never wants to go do press
and have to travel without him. So even though she
might play this witch, calm down, She's actually just a
wife who at one point they were talking about how
she still managed to get up before him and make
him breakfast in bed with like orange juice and coffee.
(22:06):
Um every morning, because because Bill breakfasts in bed. Kristen
lucky Bill I would loved it. Well, my boyfriend does
actually cook breakfast. Um, I am I'm a lucky girl.
You're a Bill. You're a lucky Bill. I am Bill,
I am Bill. We're all bill um hashtag We're all
bill um. But it was just one more supernatural sitcoms
(22:29):
of that era, which I think is interesting also in context.
You've got I dream of Genie, my living doll, which
that's a robot, my mother, the car that's a that's
a car, the Flying Nun, the Adams Family. Um, these
shows are all equating the bizarre, the alien, the magical
with the feminine. But like I mentioned earlier, all of
(22:50):
these women in these shows have these fantastic extra powers
that tended to just be used for the benefit of
the men in their lives. Basically, I mean, especially if
you look at my living doll, which is like it's
a robot for the guy, I feel like that could
go a really negative direction. And I dream of Genie.
She's like so submissive, she just and and she's adorable.
(23:10):
And yes, it's a cute show and it's adorable anthers,
but it's such like a capsule of its time of like,
I am a magical, empowered woman, but I'm going to
set that aside to do whatever i can to empower
you man in my life. And also Caroline, I know
Jennie Barbara Eden was not allowed to show her belly
button on television. Oh that's right. She was the first
(23:32):
Taylor Swift. Yeah, well Taylor Swift is allowed to obviously,
she just won't. She won't. Um. But if we look
at the witch it is interesting, as O'Reilly notes in
her book of how Samantha's witchcraft problematizes the household environment.
So she asserts that this witchcraft is symbolizing womanly rebellion.
(23:55):
And you do see this like market contrast and how
conventionally attract Jove, Samantha is versus and Dora, who is
her unmarried, wild red haired mother who's just flitting about
and hates the fact that Samantha is so devoted to Darren. Yeah,
I think hashtag we're all in Dora. Yes, it's not
(24:18):
that you Okay, wait before you write me a letter.
It's not that we shouldn't be devoted to our loved ones,
our partners. I'm just saying we could all use a
little bit more eyeshadow. That's exactly what I'm trying to say. So, Yeah,
some do see Bewitched as a landmark for women because
of its break from traditional form and for Samantha's ability
(24:39):
to wield some power over her household. But it's interesting
that you can literally use the same evidence from the
show to argue that it's empowering versus it's disempowering. So
you've got things like the idea that Darren in in
the figures of his wife and his mother in law
and and also Samantha's aunts, that he's confronting this like
(25:00):
powerful magical matriarchy and and that is amazing and empowering. Um,
you've got the idea that being a housewife, being Darren's
wife and giving up or promising to give up her
witchcraft was her choice, and that that's empowering that she
chose that life over another. But the thing is, her
power still is all for the sake of Darren and housework.
(25:25):
So she promises him right that she's not going to
use it, and then when he's away at work, she's like, well,
I'll just use a spell here to to do the
dishes and have the dishes be clean. And then when
Darren is like struggling at work, she's like, well, I'll
just use a spell to like help him along. But
the thing is, like you said, her magic always ends
up like causing wacky hijinks to happen, to ensue and
(25:49):
causes problems. So for that reason, O'Reilly is less convinced
that she that Samantha is as empowered of a character
as we really really really want her to be. Yeah,
using that same evidence of choosing housewifery. Um, whereas some
people would say, hey, the choice is empowering, some other
(26:11):
people would argue, well, she chose the safe, non magical option,
but really fascinating nonetheless, to just consider it in that
cultural context, because it does seem to present just a
snapshot of like, of things that were happening beyond the
set and outside of of people's homes. As times we're
(26:33):
starting to change for women. And speaking of that, um,
O'Reilly notes how in the seventies, these more supernatural women
like say I dream of Genie or be Whiched give
way to super heroin so you have Wonder Woman and
the Bionic Woman, for instance, and then in the eighties
and nineties you have superpowered women focused on quote proving
(26:57):
themselves to male authority figures and using their powers to
serve others and fearing repercussions if their powers are revealed.
And this is a continual theme of hitting up against
male authority figures and of the fear of being mothered
essentially by virtue of your power being put on public display. Yeah.
(27:19):
She sites shows like Charmed, Sabrina the Teenage Witch, and Buffy.
She says they presented a veneer of empowerment while facing
constraint after constraint. And I wasn't really into Sabrina the
Teenage which I was super into Buffy. I watched Charmed
in the beginning, and I just love to think of
Shannon Doherty as a witch. I just think that that
(27:42):
that was perfectly cast. She's got a witchy face. Well, yeah,
and she's got a witchy reputation. It's got a witchy reputation.
I would take that as a compliment. I would not
mean it otherwise. Um. And it is in this era
that these pop cultural whitches are often considered freaks and
are still fighting against domestic related constraints. Not terribly removed
(28:05):
from Samantha Stevens, although Buffy probably far more removed, but
you still have you know, like Sabrina having to deal
with things at school and then her house, and a
lot of times like the girls in Charmed are like
at their house right, and like dealing with dealing with
life is three sisters who are witches and handsome magical men.
Oh man, I love a handsome, magical man. And this
(28:29):
was something too that jumped out to McNamara and writing
about pop culture's love of witches in the l A Times,
because she says that these what she calls supernaturally powerful
women are usually under watch by mail authority figures and
are usually compelled to use their power in service of
(28:52):
other people rather than their self. Whereas she writes and
start contrast, supernaturally powerful male character is found on programs
such as small Ville and The Dead Zone do not
experience these same constraints. So it's like, even when we're
which is, or we're supernaturally powered in some kind of way,
we're still women. Yeah. And one of the examples that
(29:15):
she cites, and speaking of Buffy, is Buffy's relationship not
a very good relationship with her high school principle, who
expels there because he thinks that she killed another slayer
when in fact that slayer was killed by a vampire.
Take your breath, um, But yeah, and so there's that
like male authority, male power uh up again butting up
against like sort of a more innocent, spunky but powerful
(29:39):
young girl. So basically, which is are us hashtag, hashtag.
We have so many hashtags from this episodo, which is
our us. That would be a great store, that would
be a good another side business for us, Caroline. The
empire continues to grow. Um. But here's the thing, it
is usually very limited for trail of who us is.
(30:02):
If we if we look at most of our pop
cultural witches, they're typically white, middle class, conventionally attractive, straight,
and able bodied. But I mean we would argue that
maybe it has to be this way in order for
Hollywood to sign off on it. I mean, if they're
gonna build a whole franchise around it, then yeah, you've
(30:24):
got to make them um attractive in this way because
witch crones, those evil, old warty crones gonnaly be evil,
and the prettiness mollifies the transgressive aspects of practicing witchcraft.
So basically, it's like our to bring the teenage witch
were an unfortunate looking girl, would she have been is
(30:46):
popular or did we need her to look kind of
cute in order for us to be like, okay, cool
that we like that combination of like you've got a
cute face and you can also be witchy. It helps
that she was Clarissa explains at all mean that's true. Yeah, well,
I mean you've got the example also, though, of Melissandra
on Game of Thrones, who is like exceedingly beautiful and always,
(31:11):
even though it's so cold outside and she's always in
the snow, she's wearing dresses that are cut down to
a belly button. Alessandra, come on, I know your hair
doesn't keep you that warm. Put on a shirt. Do
you want a hoodie? Cut? I just always want to
give her a hoodie. Well, Caroline, you clearly don't know
that which blood is much hotter than human blood. She
is always setting people on fire. Uh so that's the thing.
(31:33):
But I mean a counter example would be true bloods
Black male, which Lafayette very true. Yeah, I mean, I
think there have been a few more examples of diversifying,
Which is probably most prominently of late would be American
horror story Coven, which presented age wise and ethnicity wise,
(31:56):
a far more diverse coven than we've probably ever seen
on network television. But a lot of people were pretty
disappointed with it in terms of how Ryan Murphy I mean,
and this is something that um, Ryan Murphy I think
just kind of tends to do with a lot of
his shows, and yes, I have been watching Scream Queens
is focusing the plot more around unquote cat fighting among
(32:19):
the witches and also some kind of straight up racist
e portrayals of the black witches that left a lot
of people scratching their heads. Um, So a lot of
people felt disempowered by Covin. Yeah. I talked to a
Holly it's stuck in this in history class about this
because she was like, what are you guys doing this
(32:40):
week time? I'm like, witches? Oh my god, you have
to watch American horror Story, Kevin. And what did she
think about? She freaking loved it. Really, She strongly disagrees
with the idea that a all they're doing is portraying
these women of catfighting and infighting and be that it's
disempowered ring at all. Granted, I mean she's a super
(33:02):
fan and all that stuff, Like, I've never seen it.
All I know is that I Kristen, and I read
this article um that was describing how disappointing it was
for people who wanted it to have been so much
more for for showing both powerful and empowered women working
together and not just focused on men or relationships or
(33:25):
marriage and babies or anything like that. Um, and how
it fell short in a lot of people's minds. Well,
I mean that was one article though. Yeah then, but
so what though did Holly like about it, aside from
like disagreeing with what critics had to say. Oh, I
mean she she completely on the opposite end of it,
thought it was empowering, and she thought it was She
just loves witchy things and thought that these women were incredible,
(33:47):
and that Jessica Lang and Angela Bassett were incredible. She
loved the relationships that these women had and that they
had power. She she loves Kathy Bates and thought Kathy
Bates was great. Although several places that we looked at
had Kathy it's like the most problematic, but I don't know,
I haven't seen it. Maybe, well it could also be
an example of one of those things where it's like
everything you like will ultimately be problematic. Yeah, that that
(34:10):
is the true statement always, And maybe we should have
Holly back on just to talk about Kevin. Doesn't matter
if Halloween has long passed, Hollyween. Hollyween, So, I mean, nevertheless,
any kind of problematic portrayals aside and I only say
problematic in that goofy voice, because yes, it has become
(34:31):
a word that has bandied about far too much and
it's kind of losing its meaning. But um, all of
these witches that we're talking about still often make for
a vast majority of us ultra satisfying female characters. We
love to see witches. So who are our favorites? Because
(34:52):
one of my one of one thing that delighted me
the most to discover and researching for this episode is
just how many best of there are. It's like, if
you have a blog, if you have a lady site
of some sort, you've gotta have some kind of roundup
of your favorite witches. Well, I think it's an excellent
convergence of things we've talked about before in terms of
like fandom and girls fandom in particular, and the fact
(35:15):
that you've got these characters who are female and who
are empowered to some degree, and so it makes sense
to me that you would have a bunch of like
top ten, top twenty, top a million, which characters on
television and movies. Well, and one thing that didn't strike
me until Kelly Busman over at Jezebel pointed out was
that if you have a show or a movie about witches,
(35:38):
it probably automatically passes the Bechdel tests because you have
a group of women with names talking to each other
and probably not about dudes all the time. Not about
dudes all the time. Although you know, one of my favorite, favorite, favorite,
favorite favorite which movies is hocus Pocus, and I would
(35:59):
have to go back and see for sure, because the
whole thing is throughout that whole movie they're so trying
to uh, they're trying to destroy Thackeray Banks, who is
a little boy who then turns into a cat. Have
you seen have you seen hocus Pocus? Oh god, it's
so good. We should totally. I don't know if anyone
would tune in for like a two hour periscope, but
(36:21):
we should totally periscope was watching that or at least
live tweeted it is my favorite. But yeah, they are
very concerned with with killing Sachery Banks and so it's
a fabulous movie. But they do talk about a boy
quite a bit. Do they have a conversation just about
the cat? Maybe we just refer to it as the cat.
(36:41):
Maybe that could count. Let's do that. Let's have an
event where we live tweet checking to see if hocus
Pocus passes the Bechdel test. Hello, I'm sure it does
at some point. That's that's the stuff that the Internet
is made of, Caroline, Yeah, exactly. I mean early on
in the movie. I think they're just like casting spells
and concerned with each other's yes, having makeover montages. I
(37:04):
wouldn't know. That's another movie. Um So, if we were
to amass our witch squad hashtag witch squad goals, who
would be in it? Well, for sure, I would say
the Sanders and sisters from hocus Pocus. I would also
say the two Ants and the two Nieces from Practical Magic,
(37:24):
which is another one of my favorite favorite movies, Andrew
Bullock classic. Well, also Stevie Nicks killing it on the soundtrack,
because you know she her whole witchy woman thing, Rannon,
that's all that stuff, keep going. No, no, no, no,
I will not. I'd also want um Nancy Downs from
The Craft, which is for as a box character, just
(37:46):
to like be my muscle. But also we can't leave
out Robin Tuney from that movie. She played Sarah because
she's like the good witch. Yeah. I liked I liked
her a lot Nancy Downs. I'm sorry, I don't think
that Nancy could be part of my squad because her
power might get out of control and I would have
to bind her, and then she find out that I
bound her, and then we'd have a fight. Now I'm
(38:07):
just saying we would just continually bind her finding herself
when we hang out, Nancy, would you put it out
and then we bind her? Let's find Nancy again just
getting out of control? Um? What about what about her Miami?
Would you want her mini there or would she call
too many of the shots? Oh? I don't know. I
haven't have I have no cultural reference for Harry Potter,
(38:30):
but I mean I know a lot of people love
her Moony and and her real life equivalent, and Watson
is like all hashtag key for she, So I mean
she can come alounch Emma Watson, this is your open
invitation to join stuff. One never told you Switch Squad
are coming. Someone let her press person know. Um, you
(38:51):
know who I would not invite in my Witch squad
having just seen it. And I haven't been able to
get this off my chest yet this episode. Okay, Louise
Miller played by Robin Lively of Teen Witch because Teen Witch.
While it does have some of the best rap scenes
ever put on film, um I did not support the
(39:13):
premise of that movie where she learns that she's a
witch and she uses her witch power to make this
handsome ll Bean catalog looking guy fall in love with her,
and it suggests in the film through some very close up,
very tongue heavy French kissing in a like random barn
(39:36):
or something that they run across, that they have sex
and she's like, oh no, what am I gonna do?
But the moral of the story is that he fell
in love with her for real z s and she
doesn't need to be a witch anymore because now her
hair is big and the popular guy still likes her
even though they've had sex, and it was just awful.
So it's just an when is it? When was it made?
(40:00):
I am guessing in like the late eighties early nineties,
so it's like an eighties update of Bewitched, sort of
like she's giving up her power for a dude. Yeah. Yeah,
um I was surprised at how how upset I was
at the end the credit started rolling and I was like,
is is it? This can't be it? Well, I would
also want to invite. Speaking of of the movie, which
(40:23):
is starring Angelica Houston, I would also I would not
invite her because she's evil, but I would invite the
main character boys aunt, who's the good witch. She's literally
dressed in white and she's blonde, compared to Angelica Houston,
who's dresed in black and has black hair. Um, and
this woman is like super Oh no, it's not his aunt.
His aunt takes into the conference. It's the white witch
(40:44):
at the end who comes and turns him from a
mouse back into a boy. I am sorry, listeners, but
that woman, I think she drives a convertible. I would
invite her. Well, this sounds like a pretty solid witch
squad so far, but I'm sure that listeners have more
suggestions for our which squad? Who else should we invite? Oh,
they'll probably say Willow from Buffy. Yeah, I would say, well,
(41:08):
you don't want evil Willow as long as it's good Willow,
have her come on. I mean also to Willow. Talk
about some TV history, one of the first positive portrayals
of a lesbian couple on television. We gotta do a
Buffy to the Vampire Slayer episode at some point. Let's
get back and rewatch all of it. Let's watch some
hocus Pocus, Let's watch some Buffy. Let's well, we have
(41:29):
to quit our day jobs to do this, but I
don't know, it's just tell working. Oh so I've been
Tella working wrong. Yes, yes, listeners, don't email our bosses. Well,
send us all of your witchy suggestions in any theories
as to why whiches are so enduring? Was there anything
that we missed in this which conversation? Because there really
(41:50):
are so many which is on film, big screen, small
screen to choose from, that we couldn't possibly mention them all,
including one last one Carol Mine, a movie that I
want to go back and watch. Is I Married a
Witch starring Veronica Lake, who was probably the most dazzling
witch because that hair is perfection. Yeah, So with that,
(42:12):
send us your witchy emails. Mom Stuff at house stuffwork
dot com is our email address. You can also tweet
us hashtag we are all in Dora at mom stuff
podcasts or messages on Facebook, and we've got a couple
of messages to share with you right now. I have
a letter here from Beth in response to our ath
(42:33):
Leisure episode. She says, I love the show. I look
forward to these bi weekly forays and feminist topics. I
just listen near ath leisure episode and I felt that
I had to write in. You mentioned that the rise
of ath leisure has led to women not dressing for
a male gaze, but I have found the opposite to
be true as a woman who comes from a religious background.
Too many times have I heard about the sin of
(42:56):
the yoga pant, and I appreciate that you use the
Stacy London singular pant. She says, These comments, made mostly
by men, point to how yoga pants help accentuate a
woman's curves, driving men to a lusty distraction. Very rarely, though,
is the discussion balance saying that while female clothing maybe
enticing to the male gaze, it's ultimately the man's responsibility
(43:17):
for how he responds. Instead, it quickly devolves into slut shaming,
making women feel guilty for wearing almost any article of
clothing that they find comfortable and or attractive, And with
fashions changing, modesty is a constantly moving target that unfortunately
seems to be predominantly from a male point of view.
As a feminist within this conservative community, I can tell
you it really steams my beings to feel subjected to
(43:40):
these arbitrary rules. So while I've been trying to open
up communications on what modesty is within my circle of influence,
I also have been buying the most comfortable and cute
luggings and yoga pants that I can find. I'll admit
that some days when I done them, I can still
feel a twinge of guilt or shame. But I try
to shrug that off and walk through my life with
my head held i and my stomach comfortably supported by elastic.
(44:03):
Thanks again for such a great podcast. I always found
the topics insightful and have many great discussions with friends
that have started with the phrase. So I was listening
to this feminist podcast today. Well, thank you, Beth. Loved
your letter. Well, I've got a letter here from Jen,
also about our at Leisure episode, and she writes, I
had to laugh because as I'm writing this and at
work in a full writing habit breaches writing socks, belt
(44:27):
tucked in shirt and vest, boots and chaps are in
the car to avoid tracking dirt everywhere. Writing clothes probably
aren't what you were thinking about when you were making
this podcast, but this is beginning to be more common
among equestrians. The clothes we buy for writing tend to
be fairly expensive as well as fashionable and flexible. The
breaches I'm wearing now are literally the most comfortable pants
(44:48):
I've ever owned, which makes sense if they need to
flex and move with you as you move on the horse.
I'm wearing these today because I plan on going writing
right after work, but there's definitely a status symbol of
wearing writing clothes in public. Not to be snobby, but
there's something satisfying about wearing actual equestrian apparel while everyone
around you is wearing equestrian inspired accessories that would fall
(45:10):
apart the minute you mounted a horse. It's just the
little thing that makes me smile. Anyway, I love the show.
Please give the episodes coming. They make my work day
fly by, and your letters help our work day fly by.
And you can send them to mom Stuff at how
stuff works dot com and for links to all of
our social media as well as all of our blogs, videos,
and podcasts, including this one with links to our sources
(45:32):
so you can read more about all that symbolism you
never knew existed and bewitched. Head on over to Stuff
Mom Never told You dot Com for moral thiss and
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The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.