February 1, 2016 • 39 mins
After experiencing a miscarriage at 16 weeks, clinical psychologist Jessica Zucker started the hashtag #IHadaMiscarriage, which went viral. Cristen and Caroline talk to Dr. Zucker about why miscarriage remains a taboo issue, how to comfort those grieving a loss and the cards she created to help us start these much-needed conversations.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to stuff Mom Never told you from house top
boards dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm
Kristen and I'm Caroline. And last fall, a series of
greeting cards caught mine and a lot of people on
the internet's attention, which might sound kind of strange because
(00:26):
greeting cards. Why why the greeting cards matter? Well, these
were greeting cards that you've probably never really seen before
because they were greeting cards about miscarriage. And I think
what's so refreshing and what probably grabbed so many people's
attention is that the messages on the cards are so open, honest,
(00:48):
straightforward and to the point, uh, their messages that you
don't typically see in your average uh sympathy card. Well, yeah,
because we don't even talk about miscarriage to begin with.
And when we did a podcast about miscarriage a little
while back, and one of the things that we focused
in on is the stigma and taboo around it and
(01:11):
the fact that a lot of people who experienced them
rarely talk about it um and end up going through
sometimes a private grieving process. And so Dr Jessica Zucker,
who were talking to today, who's an l A based
clinical psychologist and writer specializing in women's reproductive and maternal
(01:32):
mental health started this line of greeting cards too foster
these kinds of conversations UM and myth busting as well
around miscarriage that we so sorely need, and they were
inspired by the response that she had after launching the
(01:53):
hashtag I had a miscarriage in UM, timed with a
New York Times p that she published about her miscarriage experience,
which prompted just an outpouring of responses from for mostly women,
thanking her for saying things that had happened to them similarly,
but that they've never really felt comfortable or free to
(02:16):
talk about. Yeah, because despite the fact that about fifteen
percent of recognized pregnancies end in miscarriage, there is this
culture of silence and shame and stigma around it that
somehow it's your own personal failing as a person or
as a parent that this happened, and that couldn't be
(02:37):
further from the truth. And breaking that silence and also
providing more education around this issue has really become a
personal mission for Dr Zucker, who we're talking to UM
and for a little bit of background on her, she
earned a master's ny U in public health with a
focus on international reproductive issues, and she worked for the
(02:58):
Harvard School of Public Health. So, in other words, she's
a real smart lady. Um, and she also earned another
master's in psychology and human development at Harvard with a
goal of shifting from global to an interpersonal focus. And
when she experienced though the sixteen week miscarriage, as she's
(03:19):
written about, it really again shifted the focus of her
entire career, as she'll talk to us more about in
this episode. But we were so happy to have a
chance to hear from Dr Zucker not only about the
I Had a Miscarriage greeting cards, but also her insights
on on these cultural issues that we need to untangle. Yeah,
(03:43):
and so now let's hear from Dr Zucker. Well, Dr Zucker,
to get things started, would you mind introducing yourself to
our listeners and tell them a little bit about your
background and what you do. Sure, thank you so much
for having me on your show. Um. My name is
Dr Jessica Zooker, and I'm a Los Angeles based psychologist
(04:07):
specializing in women's reproductive and maternal mental health. Last year
I launched the I Had a miscarriage hashtag campaign with
my first New York Times Peace and this October I
launched a line of pregnancy Lost cards. Now you're really
curious about whether you had envisioned these greeting cards sort
(04:31):
of as you were putting the hashtag together, or whether
that was something that came afterwards, sort of how did
you how did all of that fall into place? Well,
actually know at that time, um, well, soon after my miscarriage.
So my miscarriage was a sixteen week loss, uh three
years ago, and I, you know, had specialized in this
(04:54):
particular field long before I experienced miscarriage myself, and as
a psychologist, it was sort of you know, tricky to
think through do I want to put sort of my
personal story out there in the world, um, you know,
because typically therapy is obviously so much more about the
(05:15):
patient and the person's story who's sitting in front of me.
But I felt like it would model something that I
strongly believe in, which is this idea that you know. Unfortunately,
the research shows that so many women are reporting feeling
a sense of guilt and shame and self blame after
a pregnancy loss, and so by initiating this hashtag campaign,
(05:37):
it was sort of a way to UM and you know,
alongside the essay that I wrote, which had the you know,
all the details of my traumatic loss. You know, it's
a way to sort of model this idea that we
can share our stories and we don't infect each other
by sharing our stories. We can't you know, have a
loss because we're talking about loss. And we all sort
(06:00):
of of course know that UM intellectually, but it seems
that people you know are UM somewhat you know, afraid
to to share about loss in our culture. UM talking
about out of water losses and something that that people
tend to do. So at the time, I was writing
(06:21):
mostly about the politics of pregnancy lass and then with
that particular piece I got very personal. And then I
went on to do an illustrated piece that's up on
modern lass UM with this really talented cartoonist UM, moving
(06:42):
away from the essay and sort of trying to give
people basically like a how to guide on what to
say and what not to say after somebody experiences a
pregnancy loss. So soon after that, I think that was
in the summer UM I conceived of the idea of
creating these cars. It's and basically it felt like a
natural next step, you know, sort of trying to reach
(07:05):
as many people as possible. I have a background in
international public health and worked in international women's health for
quite some time, and so I wanted to reach people
who I might never see in my office. And I
wanted to provide a way for people to actually connect
after loss, rather than sort of going to this typical,
(07:26):
you know, place of silence or oh I just didn't
know what to say, so I didn't say anything at all.
This way people can actually connect and provide support in
a meaningful way. Well, one important conversation that your card
sparked was what not to say to people in this
situation and why are sentiments like it happens for a reason,
(07:50):
or well, at least you know, you can get pregnant
often so unhelpful. True, people say these things, and I
think they think somehow that it's helpful or supportive or
loving by you know, but they don't understand that that
potentially this minimizes the magnitude of the loss. And for
(08:14):
a lot of women, you know, a loss of six
weeks is incredibly meaningful, and for others it isn't. And
so we can't assume to know how people feel after loss,
and so to kind of about you know, various latitudes. Um,
it's just often more hurtful than helpful. The more I've
(08:39):
thought about these, though, the more I realized that I
think it's actually a way for the person who's saying
them to feel better rather than the person they're saying
it too. So when it comes to sort of the
opposite of people saying things to make anyone feel better,
but the more typical silence and the internalized shame that
can happen around miscarriage, what do you think is in
(09:01):
in our culture that kind of promotes it And how
does silencing and not talking about it impact the physical
and emotional healing process. I think our culture struggles, particularly
when it comes to out of order losses. So when
a grandparent dies, people typically know what to do, you know,
(09:23):
they send a card, they send flowers, they send food,
they come, you know, they attend the funeral. But with
a loss like this, people really aren't armed with the
tools um to talk about it or to sort of
extend um support because we get just I guess overwhelmed
(09:46):
by not knowing you know, what to do, and so
the silence often comes though from not knowing what to do.
And I think I'm trying with the cards to encourage
people to almost no longer be able to say this,
or no longer be able to have an excuse really
to go silent, because women and you know their partners
(10:12):
are often in a lot of emotional pain after a
loss and feel quite confused about the future, bewildered by
what happened, maybe feeling alienated from their bodies, maybe you know,
incredibly afraid of the future. So many different things come up,
(10:33):
and so it's important that we have more of an
openness and can more easily talk about grief and loss
and sort of normalize this um And I think in
part because no one has sort of met this, this thing,
this developing thing or you know, this the fetus or whatever,
(10:57):
people don't sort of acknowledge it as a true loss, right,
so they go on to sort of potentially minimize it
by saying, well, you know, something's wrong with the baby anywhere.
Aren't you just glad that it happened this way? And
you know, looking for silver lining or bright spots when
there might not be any. Well, and one thing that
(11:21):
jumps out to me in the cards as well is
that it allows room for women to not only be
sad and to grieve, but also to be angry. And
that was something that you so rarely see in when
it comes to women in general permissions to be angry,
but especially in these kinds of situations. It's so true,
(11:41):
and why can't we have a range of feelings and
have that be okay? And you know, the truth is,
feelings aren't facts. So one day we could say, you know,
loss like the card says, and the next day feel
it's totally differently about it right or the next or
a month or year. So feelings change anyway. So again
(12:03):
it's like, let's we can try a little bit harder,
I think, to feel comfortable in whatever it is that
we're feeling, because it will change. Anger, of course, is
an expected part of of losing something or of being
afraid to not be able to have what you want,
and in this case that would be a baby. Well
(12:24):
do you think that dads could use these cards too?
I would love them too. I have sent the cards
to just a few men so far. Um, it's something
I'm thinking about in terms of the future because I
realized that, you know, the communication I think in the
(12:48):
cards it seems a lot more feminine based UM, and
so yeah, I need to sort of work on that
a little bit, you know, because it's like, get the
card that says I'm deeply sorry for your loss, if
it just stopped there, but because I wrote I'm here always,
I just felt like a man may not send something
(13:09):
that says that. So sort of along those same lines, Uh,
what did you think when Mark Zuckerberg and announcing him
and his wife's pregnancy also included there's openness about the
miscarriages that they had experienced along the way too. I
mean that seemed like a huge milestone, especially for a
guy to be saying this well, and especially him right,
(13:34):
so when whenever somebody sort of in the spotlight shares
their story, it does help to destigmatize UM, an issue
that many people aren't talking about. So I thought that
was incredibly powerful, And Good Morning America reached out to
me a couple of days later and wanted to talk
to me about the initiation of the hashtag campaign and
(13:55):
my work around pregnancy loss, because you know, I mean,
it is interesting, you know, he shared the news once
they were having a successful pregnancy, and I think that's
you know, an interesting thing for us to think about
that oftentimes women who UM aren't sort of in that
positive place or on the other side, I guess, of
(14:15):
of their loss, you know, may feel like, well, how
come we didn't share this sooner? Or um. You know,
some people are even really advocating for sharing about being
pregnant a lot sooner because in our culture typically people
feel a pressure to wait to share their news until
their twelve weeks along UM because you know, miscarried just
(14:37):
often happened within the first trimester, and so you know,
these are just some interesting things to think about. But
I do think that the more people share their stories, UM,
the more we melt away this silence that doesn't need
to exist, and that it actually creates more pain UM
for the people going through it. Do you think that
(15:00):
telling people you're pregnant earlier on is part of sort
of fostering a sense of support and community UM or not.
What do you advise your patients in terms of sharing
their pregnancy timeline? Well, I do actually think that UM
sharing early ken of course bring more support if something
(15:24):
were to go wrong, because I think this idea that
not telling doesn't really foster anything except the feeling of
kind of a loneness, you know. I mean unless somebody
just personally does want to know, marinate on this exciting
um experience on their own or just with their partner
(15:44):
or something, that's one thing. But to not share because
of a worry that something might go wrong, I don't
think behooves us as a culture. Um. It doesn't bring
the support that we do need, whether things go well
or things don't go well. And in terms of advising
my patients, I I'm more interested, I think, with with
(16:06):
the individual in terms of sort of what they're feeling,
what they're um fears are, what their excitement is all about,
what their hopes are. UM. So if somebody, for example,
wants to share early, then I'm you know, supportive of that.
But if somebody has had let's say, you know, three
(16:28):
losses or late term terminations because something was wrong with
the baby or something, and they don't feel um comfortable
you know sharing with anybody, I understand that too, you know.
So it really just depends, I think on the individual.
I mean, we we grieve so differently, and you know,
some like I said earlier, some people have an early
(16:51):
loss and grief. Some people have an early loss and
don't some people have a late loss and see it,
you know, want to sort of see it is like, oh,
this is a sign or you know something. And so
we we just kind of deal with our um grief
and our losses in such different and individual ways, and
(17:12):
so I think it just helps us to have a
broader sense of normalizing all of that. Well, and I
have to wonder as well, how much of the sort
of recommendation to wait to tell um later in a
pregnancy is more to protect the person who's pregnant from
(17:35):
more disappointment and sense of loss, or more to protect
us so that we, you know, have less of this
kind of awkward grief that we're obviously not so great
dealing with. That's exactly what I think. Yeah, yeah, And
why is it so awkward? See? I think it's so fascinating,
Like why is it hard for us to simply say
(17:56):
I'm so sorry for your loss and I'm here. Because
some of my patients say, you know, they don't love
when people say to them, tell me what I can
do for you. It's like, we'll just do something for me.
I don't need to have to tell you what to
do for me or whatever. So it's it's so simple,
so we can simply say, you know, I'm here and
(18:17):
we are going to hear more from our chat with
Dr Zucker and we come right back from a quick break. Well,
I was reading through a lot of the comments on
your New York Times column, which was fantastic and just
(18:40):
incredible to see all of the stories that we're coming
out of that, and just the relief that so many
women felt having an opportunity to share. And going back
to what you said a few minutes ago about how
we don't infect each other by sharing our stories. Um,
there was one comment or who noted that she was
afraid to talk about her miscarriage for fear that it
(19:03):
might jinks future pregnancies. So how might someone you know,
how how would you work through that kind of worry?
And I mean was that a worry that you had
to kind of work through with your own pregnancies as well? Well,
that's a good question. You mean my subsequent pregnancy after
my loss. Yeah, I was terrified for the entire pregnancy,
(19:30):
and I you know, had the testing done, the chromosomal
testing done, um as early as possible, and got you
know the news that things were healthy. But I nevertheless
I had a really hard time believing it. And um
that's in part you know why I created that hard
(19:52):
that is about being pregnant after pregnancy loss, because if
one in four pregnancies result in loss, that means there's
so many women walking around in bodies that have lost
something that they wanted um and especially if they go
on to get pregnant again. It's sort of like that
(20:13):
means there's so many people experiencing fear um at least
for for some period of time. And so in terms
of you know, this idea of jinxing, the way I
would work through that with a patient is really talking
about like, you know, it makes sense. You're anxious, you know,
you're worried that by talking about bad things or things
(20:36):
that could go wrong, that somehow just even putting that
energy out there are those words you know out there
that somehow that's going to make it happen. And and
that's sort of magical thinking, right. It's just like that's
what our kids say, like, oh, the moon is following me,
you know, um so, and that it tends to happen
(20:57):
more after trauma or after loss or with increased anxiety,
that we think that somehow we can impact things that
we really can't. So by talking about you know, disease
or terror, or or or pregnancy loss or any of
these you know, difficult and awful things, it doesn't increase
(21:18):
the likelihood of them happening. Well, what would you say
helped you the most in processing your own loss and
then going on to try again? M hmm. I think
that the way that I've made piece, I guess with
my experience is really through my writing. Of course, I'm
a big advocate of being in therapy, so that kind
(21:42):
of goes about sayings since I'm a psychologist. But uh,
in addition to that, writing about my experience really helped me,
you know, sort of investigate various crevices of my pain,
of my of the complexity of loss. I have connected
(22:03):
with so many wonderful women in organizations worldwide at this point.
That also helped me get through my loss because I
felt such a sense of community and connectedness that I
wouldn't have felt otherwise. Um. So yeah, I mean, I
I went on to get pregnant, I think about four
months after my loss, and each day you know, had
(22:26):
its struggles, and so I think though the more that
I sort of again looked at each element. Why do
women feel ashamed? Why are we blaming ourselves? Why? You know,
how can it be that the statistics are this high
and we're living though, in a culture that's basically silent
about something so normative and and typical. Um. And so,
(22:52):
you know, getting deep into all of that from I
guess the political perspective and then also the personal really
helped me feel I guess capable of walking through this again.
But until my daughter was born, UM, I was worried.
So you mentioned writing, and it reminds me of how
(23:13):
I've heard a lot of therapists recommend women who have
had traumatic birth experiences right their birth story as part
of the healing process and write it over and over again,
however many times they need to. Would you also recommend,
you know, maybe women should be writing their miscarriage stories
as well, or there's still birth stories. I mean, what
(23:33):
it sounds like that was such a therapeutic process for you. Yeah,
I think that's an important question, you know, because, um,
you would think because I initiated this hashtag, which is
so public and sort of like you know, puts it
out here in such a major way, that I might
feel like, oh, everyone should probably do this. I I
(23:57):
think writing is inevitably helpful for a lot of people. Um,
But whether or not they kind of share that privately,
you know, publicly or keep it private, I think is
totally up to them. So um, you know, because some
people have had reactions to some of my writing like, well,
not everybody feels this way or not everybody has to
(24:19):
talk about it or not everybody has to, you know,
um start a campaign related to it. And I I
couldn't agree more. I just feel like this is something
that I need to do, and it's so connected to
my work and it's so now connected to my heart
that I can't not do it. But I think, yes,
(24:41):
writing about a traumatic birth experience sounds like a very
important way to process the pain. And you know, therapy,
of course can be helpful because therapy is typically you know,
maybe once a week for fifty minutes or twice a
week whatever. Um. Writing is just can be continuous and
it's right there, um dependent paper. So I think, yeah,
(25:04):
I think that's a really important, uh healing possibility. Well,
along those lines, I'm interested in hearing in the wake
of both the hashtag and the cards and all of
the attention that they've gotten. Have you learned anything from
the people who are participating in the hashtag or anything
that's surprised you were you surprised by any of the
(25:27):
things that you heard from people who had gone through
this as well. I think I'm surprised by, you know,
the fact that so many people feel ashamed, and you know,
now it's I've read so much of the research now,
and so I guess I shouldn't be surprised that I'm
still I'm concerned riot that this many women are feeling
(25:54):
a sense of alienation from their bodies or in their bodies,
and feeling less at home in their skin and thinking
that somehow, you know, maybe by exercising or having sex
or having a sip of wine, you know that somehow
they created this loss. And uh so I've heard just
(26:16):
so much of that, you know, over the years now
since I came out with my story, you know, women
sharing that somehow, you know, did they do that? Did
they do something to deserve this, which is again, you know,
an example of magical thinking, where it's like people actually
think that maybe oh if I maybe I didn't want
(26:37):
to babe badly enough, and that's why this happened, or
you know, maybe it's because I wasn't nice to someone
in junior high and so this is the harma or
you know, some sort of boomerang effect, you know, and
again that's just not possible. And so it's that that
is disheartening to know that this people are feeling this way.
(27:01):
And again this is part of my sort of inspiration
for talking so much about it and trying to be
part of culture that's normalizing grief rather than keeping it
quiet or or you know, lathering on more shame. Well,
we're really curious, especially since the podcast is stuff mom
never told you. You were always curious about advice from
(27:24):
moms to daughters. And if your daughter ever gets pregnant,
what what do you think your advice will be just
for the whole experience. Mm hmm. That's such an important question.
You know. It's interesting that you say that, because this
morning I was changing her out of her pajamas into
(27:45):
her pose and changing her diaper and just kind of
gazing into her eyes and thinking about all that I've
been through and what kind of took to to get
her I guess um, and how different I feel about
her in a way. Then then I felt after having
my son, you know, when when pregnancy had been so
easy and um, and I hadn't known sort of heartbreak
(28:09):
at that point. And UM, so I well, I hope
that I make her proud, um so, you know, meaning
like when she's older or old enough to know that
this is something that I've done with my life, you
know that I created these cards and that I'm hoping
(28:30):
to help you know, impact or society in terms of
the discussion around all this. I hope that she even
would feel comfortable with whatever feelings arise for her in
terms of getting pregnant, um, you know, or choosing not
to get pregnant, or if she were to have a loss,
(28:52):
you know, to be able to kind of express herself
whatever the feelings might be. I actually have one, um
final question that maybe could help give some perspective to
our listeners. Um. You know, there there is such a struggle,
it seems like, to figure out the right thing to
say to someone who's experienced such a loss. And I'm wondering,
(29:17):
from your perspective, what happens both emotionally and sort of
in your social and family circle. What what happens once
all of those condolences and cards and hugs have stopped
because it seems like, you know, with the awkwardness in
our culture that we feel around loss, everyone else is
so ready to move on. But where does that leave you? Yes,
(29:43):
and thank you for bringing this up. I really try
to drive home a sense of consistency in a majority
of the cards that I created, so that people would understand, like,
you know, I'm here for you right now and I'm
here for you always or if you want to call
me morning, noon and night. Do you know it's like,
(30:04):
because I felt very alone at some point, um, soon
after my loss, and all the love was there, all
the support was available, but I still I felt pretty isolated.
Um because typically what a month later people aren't gonna,
(30:25):
you know, call you up and ask about how you're
feeling about your loss. Why not? I'm not quite sure,
but I needed that, And um that's why I think
these cards can be sent sort of at any time,
you know, And I think that we need to kind
(30:45):
of be more comfortable in the uncomfortablelity that law springs.
So again, you know, if it's a grandparent, it feels
very different. I think people you know might ask about
it if you were particularly close to that person, or
they may not because it was a kind of a
normative loss. You know, hopefully they lived along and meaningful
(31:08):
life and so uh that's that. But I think with
something like this again, it's people are hoping that you
forget about it, or that you move into getting pregnant
again and you focus on the good news, or you
focus on something you know, quote unquote positive, and then
(31:28):
you're kind of stuck though with these feelings on your own.
So I would urge people to try to show up
her people later. So even you know, six months after
a loss. And now I'm of course biased in terms
of my loss was, you know, so much later than
the typical loss. So someone with a way earlier laws
(31:52):
may not be resonating with what I'm saying. They may
not want someone to bring it up six months later.
But I know for me, it would have been so
helpful if if and just kind of texted me saying,
you know, just thinking of you, if you ever want
to talk, or you ever want to scream, or you
ever want to then, or you ever want to just
you know, tell me the whole story or not at all, whatever. Anything.
(32:14):
I just felt there was kind of this closed door
after a certain period of time. Now, I'm just curious
as someone so busy. You have two kids, you're practicing therapists,
you have the cards, you have hashtag that went viral,
So what possibly could be the next Oh, that is
(32:35):
a very good question. I I would like to know
that too. Um, raising these little people and continuing on
in in this work, you know. So I don't know.
I mean, there's a part of me that wants to
commit to a book. There's a part of me that doesn't. Um.
(32:56):
I just I don't know yet. I'm not sure that
I know that this is definitely something I will keep
that for quite some time. Well, we're very glad to
hear that, because we're we're so excited to share this
interview with our listeners because anytime we have talked about
miscarriage on the podcast, which is when we shared the
(33:18):
link about your cards, just an outpouring of um of
responses from people. They're so so eager and just longing
to talk about it and to hear about it and
to feel comforted from it. So we really really do
appreciate you taking the time. Glad. Yeah, I really just
hope that it creates a sense of connectedness and community.
(33:39):
And again because the statistics are so high, I just
I want people to feel less alone, less ashamed, um,
and less self conscious about it. So thank you again
(34:00):
so much to Dr Jessica Zucker for talking to us
about her work and about miscarriage and still birth. And
if you'd like to learn more about her, you can
go to her website at Dr Jessica Zucker dot com,
which is also where you can buy the Pregnancy Loss
greeting cards and sympathy cards UM. And if you also
(34:21):
want to learn more about just the basic facts surrounding miscarriage,
you should head over to stuff Mo'm Never told you
dot com and listen to the podcast that we did
about that and listeners. I'm I'm really curious to hear
how this conversation has resonated with you and your experience.
Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com is where
(34:42):
you can email us. You can also tweet us at
mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook, and we've got
a couple of messages to share with you right now. Well,
I have a letter here UM from Jeffrey in response
to our knitting episode. I just finished listening to the
(35:03):
knitting episode and wanted to write in about one of
my New Year's resolutions, learning to crochet. Owing to the
fact that I, like you too, have tried to learn
to knit in the past. To my ultimate despair, I
decided to see if my hands took any more easily
to the crochet hook. As it turns out, my brain
totally wraps around it's so much more easily than it
did knitting. I definitely recommend trying it as a triumphant
(35:25):
trade for knitting, if that particular failure haunts you as
it haunted me. I'm only a few weeks in, but
already making great headway and getting used to how it
feels in my hands. But the real reason I'm writing
is more to the gendered subject matter you brought up
in the episode. Being a gay male in New York City,
I don't much get askance looks if I pull out
(35:45):
my work in public. It's New York and no one cares.
I'm crocheting on the subway. The guy next to me
might be conducting an imaginary orchestra. However, my husband and
I are planning a move to a more rural area
this summer, where I imagine the level of at least
in initial surprise might be a good bit higher. I
don't expect a lot of judgment attached, but the occurrence
of a man crocheting is probably less common and outside
(36:08):
of major city environments. I think people tend to notice
more and ask more questions, inadvertently revealing their assumptions or biases.
I think it's an interesting phenomenon and wonder if there's
anything else you two might know about the connections between
gender and sexuality stigmas, and metropolitan living versus rural living.
I think some things they are easily assumed or just
(36:28):
taking as common sense, but I don't know much about
research to support what we all infer i e. City
folk are more high minded and our tolerant, while the
country folk are quicker to scrutinize your question validity. It
might make an interesting episode, unless I've missed one in
the past, and all of that from a brief history
of knitting. Thank you for a super fun show. I'm
a dedicated listener to several House to Folks podcasts and
(36:50):
appreciate all the work you guys do to educate us
in an entertaining way. Well, thank you, Jeffrey. We appreciate
you listening, and no we haven't done an episode looking
at stigmas and gender in city versus rural living, but
I guess that's something tangentially. It's kind of a thing
we touch on in a lot of our episodes. Yeah,
it reminded me of our Farmer James episode where we
(37:12):
talk about the queer farming movement. So they're definitely rural
areas out there that are super progressive and very organic
as well. Delicious radishes. Thanks Jeffrey. Well, I've got a
let her here from Heather about our feminist marriage episode,
and she writes, I started listening to your podcast when
I had an awful commute two hours each way. Oh
(37:33):
my goodness, Heather, and I enjoyed it so much I've
continued even though I no longer have the commute. In fact,
I often listen while I'm cooking and have a bit
of a chuckle about listening to a feminist podcast while
engaging in such a stereotypically gendered activity. Not only have
your podcast helped me to embrace my feminism, but it
also feels like a great way to engage in intellectual
discourse post grad school. What wonderful compliments. Thank you, Heather.
(37:57):
She goes on to say. I want to especially thank
you for your episode on the feminist marriage, which struck
a very personal chord for me. Specifically, it helped me
to articulate some of the things I've been dealing with
and also to feel less alone in the process. My
husband and I got married in December fourteen after a
whirl win romance. We met online, and he proposed after
only three months on the lot where we built our house.
(38:20):
I know I would want to roll my eyes if
this had not actually happened to me. I feel grateful
to have found someone so wonderful to share my life
with and to have a great story about it. But
still there's something almost sad about going from an independent
woman to being described as someone's wife. Don't get me
wrong in a day to day since I'm very happy.
It's more on a philosophical level that I struggle with
(38:40):
the labels and expectations. On top of that, we live
in Texas, so there is a very real societal pressure
to conform to certain relationship norms. My husband is very
supportive and understanding, and we have the occasional discussion rather
than the blowouts described by Meg Keane. I do agree
that it's an ongoing process though, and I also leave
it is important to recognize and be able to articulate
(39:02):
how you're feeling. Thanks for your hard work. I'm finding
the latter much easier and I feel more normal for it. Well,
thank you so much Heather for writing and I'm so
happy to hear that the podcast has been a source
of comfort for you and listeners. Again, we want to
hear from you as well. Mom Stuff at how stuff
(39:23):
works dot com is our email address and for links
to all of our social media as well as all
of our blogs, videos, and podcasts, with links to Dr
Jessica Zucker's work so you can learn more about her.
Head on over to stuff Mom Never Told You dot
com for moralness and thousands of other topics. Does it
(39:46):
how stuff works dot com
Welcome to stuff Mom Never told you from house top
boards dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm
Kristen and I'm Caroline. And last fall, a series of
greeting cards caught mine and a lot of people on
the internet's attention, which might sound kind of strange because
(00:26):
greeting cards. Why why the greeting cards matter? Well, these
were greeting cards that you've probably never really seen before
because they were greeting cards about miscarriage. And I think
what's so refreshing and what probably grabbed so many people's
attention is that the messages on the cards are so open, honest,
(00:48):
straightforward and to the point, uh, their messages that you
don't typically see in your average uh sympathy card. Well, yeah,
because we don't even talk about miscarriage to begin with.
And when we did a podcast about miscarriage a little
while back, and one of the things that we focused
in on is the stigma and taboo around it and
(01:11):
the fact that a lot of people who experienced them
rarely talk about it um and end up going through
sometimes a private grieving process. And so Dr Jessica Zucker,
who were talking to today, who's an l A based
clinical psychologist and writer specializing in women's reproductive and maternal
(01:32):
mental health started this line of greeting cards too foster
these kinds of conversations UM and myth busting as well
around miscarriage that we so sorely need, and they were
inspired by the response that she had after launching the
(01:53):
hashtag I had a miscarriage in UM, timed with a
New York Times p that she published about her miscarriage experience,
which prompted just an outpouring of responses from for mostly women,
thanking her for saying things that had happened to them similarly,
but that they've never really felt comfortable or free to
(02:16):
talk about. Yeah, because despite the fact that about fifteen
percent of recognized pregnancies end in miscarriage, there is this
culture of silence and shame and stigma around it that
somehow it's your own personal failing as a person or
as a parent that this happened, and that couldn't be
(02:37):
further from the truth. And breaking that silence and also
providing more education around this issue has really become a
personal mission for Dr Zucker, who we're talking to UM
and for a little bit of background on her, she
earned a master's ny U in public health with a
focus on international reproductive issues, and she worked for the
(02:58):
Harvard School of Public Health. So, in other words, she's
a real smart lady. Um, and she also earned another
master's in psychology and human development at Harvard with a
goal of shifting from global to an interpersonal focus. And
when she experienced though the sixteen week miscarriage, as she's
(03:19):
written about, it really again shifted the focus of her
entire career, as she'll talk to us more about in
this episode. But we were so happy to have a
chance to hear from Dr Zucker not only about the
I Had a Miscarriage greeting cards, but also her insights
on on these cultural issues that we need to untangle. Yeah,
(03:43):
and so now let's hear from Dr Zucker. Well, Dr Zucker,
to get things started, would you mind introducing yourself to
our listeners and tell them a little bit about your
background and what you do. Sure, thank you so much
for having me on your show. Um. My name is
Dr Jessica Zooker, and I'm a Los Angeles based psychologist
(04:07):
specializing in women's reproductive and maternal mental health. Last year
I launched the I Had a miscarriage hashtag campaign with
my first New York Times Peace and this October I
launched a line of pregnancy Lost cards. Now you're really
curious about whether you had envisioned these greeting cards sort
(04:31):
of as you were putting the hashtag together, or whether
that was something that came afterwards, sort of how did
you how did all of that fall into place? Well,
actually know at that time, um, well, soon after my miscarriage.
So my miscarriage was a sixteen week loss, uh three
years ago, and I, you know, had specialized in this
(04:54):
particular field long before I experienced miscarriage myself, and as
a psychologist, it was sort of you know, tricky to
think through do I want to put sort of my
personal story out there in the world, um, you know,
because typically therapy is obviously so much more about the
(05:15):
patient and the person's story who's sitting in front of me.
But I felt like it would model something that I
strongly believe in, which is this idea that you know. Unfortunately,
the research shows that so many women are reporting feeling
a sense of guilt and shame and self blame after
a pregnancy loss, and so by initiating this hashtag campaign,
(05:37):
it was sort of a way to UM and you know,
alongside the essay that I wrote, which had the you know,
all the details of my traumatic loss. You know, it's
a way to sort of model this idea that we
can share our stories and we don't infect each other
by sharing our stories. We can't you know, have a
loss because we're talking about loss. And we all sort
(06:00):
of of course know that UM intellectually, but it seems
that people you know are UM somewhat you know, afraid
to to share about loss in our culture. UM talking
about out of water losses and something that that people
tend to do. So at the time, I was writing
(06:21):
mostly about the politics of pregnancy lass and then with
that particular piece I got very personal. And then I
went on to do an illustrated piece that's up on
modern lass UM with this really talented cartoonist UM, moving
(06:42):
away from the essay and sort of trying to give
people basically like a how to guide on what to
say and what not to say after somebody experiences a
pregnancy loss. So soon after that, I think that was
in the summer UM I conceived of the idea of
creating these cars. It's and basically it felt like a
natural next step, you know, sort of trying to reach
(07:05):
as many people as possible. I have a background in
international public health and worked in international women's health for
quite some time, and so I wanted to reach people
who I might never see in my office. And I
wanted to provide a way for people to actually connect
after loss, rather than sort of going to this typical,
(07:26):
you know, place of silence or oh I just didn't
know what to say, so I didn't say anything at all.
This way people can actually connect and provide support in
a meaningful way. Well, one important conversation that your card
sparked was what not to say to people in this
situation and why are sentiments like it happens for a reason,
(07:50):
or well, at least you know, you can get pregnant
often so unhelpful. True, people say these things, and I
think they think somehow that it's helpful or supportive or
loving by you know, but they don't understand that that
potentially this minimizes the magnitude of the loss. And for
(08:14):
a lot of women, you know, a loss of six
weeks is incredibly meaningful, and for others it isn't. And
so we can't assume to know how people feel after loss,
and so to kind of about you know, various latitudes. Um,
it's just often more hurtful than helpful. The more I've
(08:39):
thought about these, though, the more I realized that I
think it's actually a way for the person who's saying
them to feel better rather than the person they're saying
it too. So when it comes to sort of the
opposite of people saying things to make anyone feel better,
but the more typical silence and the internalized shame that
can happen around miscarriage, what do you think is in
(09:01):
in our culture that kind of promotes it And how
does silencing and not talking about it impact the physical
and emotional healing process. I think our culture struggles, particularly
when it comes to out of order losses. So when
a grandparent dies, people typically know what to do, you know,
(09:23):
they send a card, they send flowers, they send food,
they come, you know, they attend the funeral. But with
a loss like this, people really aren't armed with the
tools um to talk about it or to sort of
extend um support because we get just I guess overwhelmed
(09:46):
by not knowing you know, what to do, and so
the silence often comes though from not knowing what to do.
And I think I'm trying with the cards to encourage
people to almost no longer be able to say this,
or no longer be able to have an excuse really
to go silent, because women and you know their partners
(10:12):
are often in a lot of emotional pain after a
loss and feel quite confused about the future, bewildered by
what happened, maybe feeling alienated from their bodies, maybe you know,
incredibly afraid of the future. So many different things come up,
(10:33):
and so it's important that we have more of an
openness and can more easily talk about grief and loss
and sort of normalize this um And I think in
part because no one has sort of met this, this thing,
this developing thing or you know, this the fetus or whatever,
(10:57):
people don't sort of acknowledge it as a true loss, right,
so they go on to sort of potentially minimize it
by saying, well, you know, something's wrong with the baby anywhere.
Aren't you just glad that it happened this way? And
you know, looking for silver lining or bright spots when
there might not be any. Well, and one thing that
(11:21):
jumps out to me in the cards as well is
that it allows room for women to not only be
sad and to grieve, but also to be angry. And
that was something that you so rarely see in when
it comes to women in general permissions to be angry,
but especially in these kinds of situations. It's so true,
(11:41):
and why can't we have a range of feelings and
have that be okay? And you know, the truth is,
feelings aren't facts. So one day we could say, you know,
loss like the card says, and the next day feel
it's totally differently about it right or the next or
a month or year. So feelings change anyway. So again
(12:03):
it's like, let's we can try a little bit harder,
I think, to feel comfortable in whatever it is that
we're feeling, because it will change. Anger, of course, is
an expected part of of losing something or of being
afraid to not be able to have what you want,
and in this case that would be a baby. Well
(12:24):
do you think that dads could use these cards too?
I would love them too. I have sent the cards
to just a few men so far. Um, it's something
I'm thinking about in terms of the future because I
realized that, you know, the communication I think in the
(12:48):
cards it seems a lot more feminine based UM, and
so yeah, I need to sort of work on that
a little bit, you know, because it's like, get the
card that says I'm deeply sorry for your loss, if
it just stopped there, but because I wrote I'm here always,
I just felt like a man may not send something
(13:09):
that says that. So sort of along those same lines, Uh,
what did you think when Mark Zuckerberg and announcing him
and his wife's pregnancy also included there's openness about the
miscarriages that they had experienced along the way too. I
mean that seemed like a huge milestone, especially for a
guy to be saying this well, and especially him right,
(13:34):
so when whenever somebody sort of in the spotlight shares
their story, it does help to destigmatize UM, an issue
that many people aren't talking about. So I thought that
was incredibly powerful, And Good Morning America reached out to
me a couple of days later and wanted to talk
to me about the initiation of the hashtag campaign and
(13:55):
my work around pregnancy loss, because you know, I mean,
it is interesting, you know, he shared the news once
they were having a successful pregnancy, and I think that's
you know, an interesting thing for us to think about
that oftentimes women who UM aren't sort of in that
positive place or on the other side, I guess, of
(14:15):
of their loss, you know, may feel like, well, how
come we didn't share this sooner? Or um. You know,
some people are even really advocating for sharing about being
pregnant a lot sooner because in our culture typically people
feel a pressure to wait to share their news until
their twelve weeks along UM because you know, miscarried just
(14:37):
often happened within the first trimester, and so you know,
these are just some interesting things to think about. But
I do think that the more people share their stories, UM,
the more we melt away this silence that doesn't need
to exist, and that it actually creates more pain UM
for the people going through it. Do you think that
(15:00):
telling people you're pregnant earlier on is part of sort
of fostering a sense of support and community UM or not.
What do you advise your patients in terms of sharing
their pregnancy timeline? Well, I do actually think that UM
sharing early ken of course bring more support if something
(15:24):
were to go wrong, because I think this idea that
not telling doesn't really foster anything except the feeling of
kind of a loneness, you know. I mean unless somebody
just personally does want to know, marinate on this exciting
um experience on their own or just with their partner
(15:44):
or something, that's one thing. But to not share because
of a worry that something might go wrong, I don't
think behooves us as a culture. Um. It doesn't bring
the support that we do need, whether things go well
or things don't go well. And in terms of advising
my patients, I I'm more interested, I think, with with
(16:06):
the individual in terms of sort of what they're feeling,
what they're um fears are, what their excitement is all about,
what their hopes are. UM. So if somebody, for example,
wants to share early, then I'm you know, supportive of that.
But if somebody has had let's say, you know, three
(16:28):
losses or late term terminations because something was wrong with
the baby or something, and they don't feel um comfortable
you know sharing with anybody, I understand that too, you know.
So it really just depends, I think on the individual.
I mean, we we grieve so differently, and you know,
some like I said earlier, some people have an early
(16:51):
loss and grief. Some people have an early loss and
don't some people have a late loss and see it,
you know, want to sort of see it is like, oh,
this is a sign or you know something. And so
we we just kind of deal with our um grief
and our losses in such different and individual ways, and
(17:12):
so I think it just helps us to have a
broader sense of normalizing all of that. Well, and I
have to wonder as well, how much of the sort
of recommendation to wait to tell um later in a
pregnancy is more to protect the person who's pregnant from
(17:35):
more disappointment and sense of loss, or more to protect
us so that we, you know, have less of this
kind of awkward grief that we're obviously not so great
dealing with. That's exactly what I think. Yeah, yeah, And
why is it so awkward? See? I think it's so fascinating,
Like why is it hard for us to simply say
(17:56):
I'm so sorry for your loss and I'm here. Because
some of my patients say, you know, they don't love
when people say to them, tell me what I can
do for you. It's like, we'll just do something for me.
I don't need to have to tell you what to
do for me or whatever. So it's it's so simple,
so we can simply say, you know, I'm here and
(18:17):
we are going to hear more from our chat with
Dr Zucker and we come right back from a quick break. Well,
I was reading through a lot of the comments on
your New York Times column, which was fantastic and just
(18:40):
incredible to see all of the stories that we're coming
out of that, and just the relief that so many
women felt having an opportunity to share. And going back
to what you said a few minutes ago about how
we don't infect each other by sharing our stories. Um,
there was one comment or who noted that she was
afraid to talk about her miscarriage for fear that it
(19:03):
might jinks future pregnancies. So how might someone you know,
how how would you work through that kind of worry?
And I mean was that a worry that you had
to kind of work through with your own pregnancies as well? Well,
that's a good question. You mean my subsequent pregnancy after
my loss. Yeah, I was terrified for the entire pregnancy,
(19:30):
and I you know, had the testing done, the chromosomal
testing done, um as early as possible, and got you
know the news that things were healthy. But I nevertheless
I had a really hard time believing it. And um
that's in part you know why I created that hard
(19:52):
that is about being pregnant after pregnancy loss, because if
one in four pregnancies result in loss, that means there's
so many women walking around in bodies that have lost
something that they wanted um and especially if they go
on to get pregnant again. It's sort of like that
(20:13):
means there's so many people experiencing fear um at least
for for some period of time. And so in terms
of you know, this idea of jinxing, the way I
would work through that with a patient is really talking
about like, you know, it makes sense. You're anxious, you know,
you're worried that by talking about bad things or things
(20:36):
that could go wrong, that somehow just even putting that
energy out there are those words you know out there
that somehow that's going to make it happen. And and
that's sort of magical thinking, right. It's just like that's
what our kids say, like, oh, the moon is following me,
you know, um so, and that it tends to happen
(20:57):
more after trauma or after loss or with increased anxiety,
that we think that somehow we can impact things that
we really can't. So by talking about you know, disease
or terror, or or or pregnancy loss or any of
these you know, difficult and awful things, it doesn't increase
(21:18):
the likelihood of them happening. Well, what would you say
helped you the most in processing your own loss and
then going on to try again? M hmm. I think
that the way that I've made piece, I guess with
my experience is really through my writing. Of course, I'm
a big advocate of being in therapy, so that kind
(21:42):
of goes about sayings since I'm a psychologist. But uh,
in addition to that, writing about my experience really helped me,
you know, sort of investigate various crevices of my pain,
of my of the complexity of loss. I have connected
(22:03):
with so many wonderful women in organizations worldwide at this point.
That also helped me get through my loss because I
felt such a sense of community and connectedness that I
wouldn't have felt otherwise. Um. So yeah, I mean, I
I went on to get pregnant, I think about four
months after my loss, and each day you know, had
(22:26):
its struggles, and so I think though the more that
I sort of again looked at each element. Why do
women feel ashamed? Why are we blaming ourselves? Why? You know,
how can it be that the statistics are this high
and we're living though, in a culture that's basically silent
about something so normative and and typical. Um. And so,
(22:52):
you know, getting deep into all of that from I
guess the political perspective and then also the personal really
helped me feel I guess capable of walking through this again.
But until my daughter was born, UM, I was worried.
So you mentioned writing, and it reminds me of how
(23:13):
I've heard a lot of therapists recommend women who have
had traumatic birth experiences right their birth story as part
of the healing process and write it over and over again,
however many times they need to. Would you also recommend,
you know, maybe women should be writing their miscarriage stories
as well, or there's still birth stories. I mean, what
(23:33):
it sounds like that was such a therapeutic process for you. Yeah,
I think that's an important question, you know, because, um,
you would think because I initiated this hashtag, which is
so public and sort of like you know, puts it
out here in such a major way, that I might
feel like, oh, everyone should probably do this. I I
(23:57):
think writing is inevitably helpful for a lot of people. Um,
But whether or not they kind of share that privately,
you know, publicly or keep it private, I think is
totally up to them. So um, you know, because some
people have had reactions to some of my writing like, well,
not everybody feels this way or not everybody has to
(24:19):
talk about it or not everybody has to, you know,
um start a campaign related to it. And I I
couldn't agree more. I just feel like this is something
that I need to do, and it's so connected to
my work and it's so now connected to my heart
that I can't not do it. But I think, yes,
(24:41):
writing about a traumatic birth experience sounds like a very
important way to process the pain. And you know, therapy,
of course can be helpful because therapy is typically you know,
maybe once a week for fifty minutes or twice a
week whatever. Um. Writing is just can be continuous and
it's right there, um dependent paper. So I think, yeah,
(25:04):
I think that's a really important, uh healing possibility. Well,
along those lines, I'm interested in hearing in the wake
of both the hashtag and the cards and all of
the attention that they've gotten. Have you learned anything from
the people who are participating in the hashtag or anything
that's surprised you were you surprised by any of the
(25:27):
things that you heard from people who had gone through
this as well. I think I'm surprised by, you know,
the fact that so many people feel ashamed, and you know,
now it's I've read so much of the research now,
and so I guess I shouldn't be surprised that I'm
still I'm concerned riot that this many women are feeling
(25:54):
a sense of alienation from their bodies or in their bodies,
and feeling less at home in their skin and thinking
that somehow, you know, maybe by exercising or having sex
or having a sip of wine, you know that somehow
they created this loss. And uh so I've heard just
(26:16):
so much of that, you know, over the years now
since I came out with my story, you know, women
sharing that somehow, you know, did they do that? Did
they do something to deserve this, which is again, you know,
an example of magical thinking, where it's like people actually
think that maybe oh if I maybe I didn't want
(26:37):
to babe badly enough, and that's why this happened, or
you know, maybe it's because I wasn't nice to someone
in junior high and so this is the harma or
you know, some sort of boomerang effect, you know, and
again that's just not possible. And so it's that that
is disheartening to know that this people are feeling this way.
(27:01):
And again this is part of my sort of inspiration
for talking so much about it and trying to be
part of culture that's normalizing grief rather than keeping it
quiet or or you know, lathering on more shame. Well,
we're really curious, especially since the podcast is stuff mom
never told you. You were always curious about advice from
(27:24):
moms to daughters. And if your daughter ever gets pregnant,
what what do you think your advice will be just
for the whole experience. Mm hmm. That's such an important question.
You know. It's interesting that you say that, because this
morning I was changing her out of her pajamas into
(27:45):
her pose and changing her diaper and just kind of
gazing into her eyes and thinking about all that I've
been through and what kind of took to to get
her I guess um, and how different I feel about
her in a way. Then then I felt after having
my son, you know, when when pregnancy had been so
easy and um, and I hadn't known sort of heartbreak
(28:09):
at that point. And UM, so I well, I hope
that I make her proud, um so, you know, meaning
like when she's older or old enough to know that
this is something that I've done with my life, you
know that I created these cards and that I'm hoping
(28:30):
to help you know, impact or society in terms of
the discussion around all this. I hope that she even
would feel comfortable with whatever feelings arise for her in
terms of getting pregnant, um, you know, or choosing not
to get pregnant, or if she were to have a loss,
(28:52):
you know, to be able to kind of express herself
whatever the feelings might be. I actually have one, um
final question that maybe could help give some perspective to
our listeners. Um. You know, there there is such a struggle,
it seems like, to figure out the right thing to
say to someone who's experienced such a loss. And I'm wondering,
(29:17):
from your perspective, what happens both emotionally and sort of
in your social and family circle. What what happens once
all of those condolences and cards and hugs have stopped
because it seems like, you know, with the awkwardness in
our culture that we feel around loss, everyone else is
so ready to move on. But where does that leave you? Yes,
(29:43):
and thank you for bringing this up. I really try
to drive home a sense of consistency in a majority
of the cards that I created, so that people would understand, like,
you know, I'm here for you right now and I'm
here for you always or if you want to call
me morning, noon and night. Do you know it's like,
(30:04):
because I felt very alone at some point, um, soon
after my loss, and all the love was there, all
the support was available, but I still I felt pretty isolated.
Um because typically what a month later people aren't gonna,
(30:25):
you know, call you up and ask about how you're
feeling about your loss. Why not? I'm not quite sure,
but I needed that, And um that's why I think
these cards can be sent sort of at any time,
you know, And I think that we need to kind
(30:45):
of be more comfortable in the uncomfortablelity that law springs.
So again, you know, if it's a grandparent, it feels
very different. I think people you know might ask about
it if you were particularly close to that person, or
they may not because it was a kind of a
normative loss. You know, hopefully they lived along and meaningful
(31:08):
life and so uh that's that. But I think with
something like this again, it's people are hoping that you
forget about it, or that you move into getting pregnant
again and you focus on the good news, or you
focus on something you know, quote unquote positive, and then
(31:28):
you're kind of stuck though with these feelings on your own.
So I would urge people to try to show up
her people later. So even you know, six months after
a loss. And now I'm of course biased in terms
of my loss was, you know, so much later than
the typical loss. So someone with a way earlier laws
(31:52):
may not be resonating with what I'm saying. They may
not want someone to bring it up six months later.
But I know for me, it would have been so
helpful if if and just kind of texted me saying,
you know, just thinking of you, if you ever want
to talk, or you ever want to scream, or you
ever want to then, or you ever want to just
you know, tell me the whole story or not at all, whatever. Anything.
(32:14):
I just felt there was kind of this closed door
after a certain period of time. Now, I'm just curious
as someone so busy. You have two kids, you're practicing therapists,
you have the cards, you have hashtag that went viral,
So what possibly could be the next Oh, that is
(32:35):
a very good question. I I would like to know
that too. Um, raising these little people and continuing on
in in this work, you know. So I don't know.
I mean, there's a part of me that wants to
commit to a book. There's a part of me that doesn't. Um.
(32:56):
I just I don't know yet. I'm not sure that
I know that this is definitely something I will keep
that for quite some time. Well, we're very glad to
hear that, because we're we're so excited to share this
interview with our listeners because anytime we have talked about
miscarriage on the podcast, which is when we shared the
(33:18):
link about your cards, just an outpouring of um of
responses from people. They're so so eager and just longing
to talk about it and to hear about it and
to feel comforted from it. So we really really do
appreciate you taking the time. Glad. Yeah, I really just
hope that it creates a sense of connectedness and community.
(33:39):
And again because the statistics are so high, I just
I want people to feel less alone, less ashamed, um,
and less self conscious about it. So thank you again
(34:00):
so much to Dr Jessica Zucker for talking to us
about her work and about miscarriage and still birth. And
if you'd like to learn more about her, you can
go to her website at Dr Jessica Zucker dot com,
which is also where you can buy the Pregnancy Loss
greeting cards and sympathy cards UM. And if you also
(34:21):
want to learn more about just the basic facts surrounding miscarriage,
you should head over to stuff Mo'm Never told you
dot com and listen to the podcast that we did
about that and listeners. I'm I'm really curious to hear
how this conversation has resonated with you and your experience.
Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com is where
(34:42):
you can email us. You can also tweet us at
mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook, and we've got
a couple of messages to share with you right now. Well,
I have a letter here UM from Jeffrey in response
to our knitting episode. I just finished listening to the
(35:03):
knitting episode and wanted to write in about one of
my New Year's resolutions, learning to crochet. Owing to the
fact that I, like you too, have tried to learn
to knit in the past. To my ultimate despair, I
decided to see if my hands took any more easily
to the crochet hook. As it turns out, my brain
totally wraps around it's so much more easily than it
did knitting. I definitely recommend trying it as a triumphant
(35:25):
trade for knitting, if that particular failure haunts you as
it haunted me. I'm only a few weeks in, but
already making great headway and getting used to how it
feels in my hands. But the real reason I'm writing
is more to the gendered subject matter you brought up
in the episode. Being a gay male in New York City,
I don't much get askance looks if I pull out
(35:45):
my work in public. It's New York and no one cares.
I'm crocheting on the subway. The guy next to me
might be conducting an imaginary orchestra. However, my husband and
I are planning a move to a more rural area
this summer, where I imagine the level of at least
in initial surprise might be a good bit higher. I
don't expect a lot of judgment attached, but the occurrence
of a man crocheting is probably less common and outside
(36:08):
of major city environments. I think people tend to notice
more and ask more questions, inadvertently revealing their assumptions or biases.
I think it's an interesting phenomenon and wonder if there's
anything else you two might know about the connections between
gender and sexuality stigmas, and metropolitan living versus rural living.
I think some things they are easily assumed or just
(36:28):
taking as common sense, but I don't know much about
research to support what we all infer i e. City
folk are more high minded and our tolerant, while the
country folk are quicker to scrutinize your question validity. It
might make an interesting episode, unless I've missed one in
the past, and all of that from a brief history
of knitting. Thank you for a super fun show. I'm
a dedicated listener to several House to Folks podcasts and
(36:50):
appreciate all the work you guys do to educate us
in an entertaining way. Well, thank you, Jeffrey. We appreciate
you listening, and no we haven't done an episode looking
at stigmas and gender in city versus rural living, but
I guess that's something tangentially. It's kind of a thing
we touch on in a lot of our episodes. Yeah,
it reminded me of our Farmer James episode where we
(37:12):
talk about the queer farming movement. So they're definitely rural
areas out there that are super progressive and very organic
as well. Delicious radishes. Thanks Jeffrey. Well, I've got a
let her here from Heather about our feminist marriage episode,
and she writes, I started listening to your podcast when
I had an awful commute two hours each way. Oh
(37:33):
my goodness, Heather, and I enjoyed it so much I've
continued even though I no longer have the commute. In fact,
I often listen while I'm cooking and have a bit
of a chuckle about listening to a feminist podcast while
engaging in such a stereotypically gendered activity. Not only have
your podcast helped me to embrace my feminism, but it
also feels like a great way to engage in intellectual
discourse post grad school. What wonderful compliments. Thank you, Heather.
(37:57):
She goes on to say. I want to especially thank
you for your episode on the feminist marriage, which struck
a very personal chord for me. Specifically, it helped me
to articulate some of the things I've been dealing with
and also to feel less alone in the process. My
husband and I got married in December fourteen after a
whirl win romance. We met online, and he proposed after
only three months on the lot where we built our house.
(38:20):
I know I would want to roll my eyes if
this had not actually happened to me. I feel grateful
to have found someone so wonderful to share my life
with and to have a great story about it. But
still there's something almost sad about going from an independent
woman to being described as someone's wife. Don't get me
wrong in a day to day since I'm very happy.
It's more on a philosophical level that I struggle with
(38:40):
the labels and expectations. On top of that, we live
in Texas, so there is a very real societal pressure
to conform to certain relationship norms. My husband is very
supportive and understanding, and we have the occasional discussion rather
than the blowouts described by Meg Keane. I do agree
that it's an ongoing process though, and I also leave
it is important to recognize and be able to articulate
(39:02):
how you're feeling. Thanks for your hard work. I'm finding
the latter much easier and I feel more normal for it. Well,
thank you so much Heather for writing and I'm so
happy to hear that the podcast has been a source
of comfort for you and listeners. Again, we want to
hear from you as well. Mom Stuff at how stuff
(39:23):
works dot com is our email address and for links
to all of our social media as well as all
of our blogs, videos, and podcasts, with links to Dr
Jessica Zucker's work so you can learn more about her.
Head on over to stuff Mom Never Told You dot
com for moralness and thousands of other topics. Does it
(39:46):
how stuff works dot com
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