July 22, 2013 • 31 mins
Why are two-thirds of diagnosed kleptomaniacs women? Cristen and Caroline explore the 19th-century rise of retail consumerism, shoplifting and how kleptomania was invented to help keep wealthy women out of prison.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from hostal corks
dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Caroline
and I'm Kristen. Um. Something interesting about our topic today
is the link, the gendered link between women and stealing stuff,
(00:25):
which called me ignorant, Kristen, But I really did not
know that the origins of the concept of kleptomania lay
with ladies. Yeah, I didn't know that either. First of
let's just offer an umbrella view of shoplifting in the
United States. There's a lot of people do it, a lot,
so many people in fact, that it costs US retailers
(00:48):
ten billion dollars a year, but they only catch about
twenty four per cent of them. But among all of
those shoplifters, very few would qualify as kleptomaniacs. Yeah, there
is a difference between just somebody who shoplifts or steal
stuff and an actual kleptomaniac. The word itself comes from
(01:10):
the Greek cleptin to steal, although it was first called
klopomania and was coined in eighteen sixteen by Andrew Mathai,
a Swiss doctor, who defined it as both a desire
for theft and theft without need, and this very sensitive
doctor used it to describe thieves who impulsively stole unneeded
items out of quote unquote pure insanity. Yeah. And then
(01:32):
a little while later in eighteen forty, a pair of
French doctors later changed the word to kleptomania to describe
behaviors characterized by irresistible involuntary urges. And the two points
about theft without need and the involuntary urge is gonna
be something really important when it becomes applied specifically to women,
(01:55):
because kleptomania is often thought of as a woman's disease,
because us two thirds of diagnosed kleptomaniacs are women, right,
and we should look at this as we have pointed
on in other issues of the mind that we have
talked about before, Women tend to present with more psychological
issues like this because they tend to go seek actual
(02:18):
mental health help more than men do. Yeah. Some wonder
whether there is a gender bias at work in terms
of that diagnosis of kleptomania more for women, since women
who steal tend to get a psychiatric evaluation, whereas men
who steal tend to get prison time. Well, we are
(02:38):
very delicate flowers, So thank god. Um anyway, kleptomania, it
turns out we're right when we say that it's not
necessarily that more women than men experience kleptomania. We both
get it, but we get it differently. This is coming
from a two thousand eight study and seeing us spectrums.
They looked at nine adults for two thousand one to
(03:00):
two thousand seven with kleptomania. Both men and women showed
substantial symptoms, but women were more likely to be married,
have a later age at shoplifting onset, steal household items
and hoard those stolen items, and have an eating disorder.
They were less likely, however, to steal electronics than men
(03:20):
and less likely to have another impulse controlled disorder. So
those researchers concluded that when it comes to kleptomania that
they really need to take gender into account in terms
of devising prevention and treatment strategies. But I mean, it's
almost impossible to disentangle gender and women from kleptomania because
(03:43):
if we go back in time to when the term
was being developed and passed around, it was something that
developed as an answer to the rise of shoplifting. Specifically
among women. And the sources that were about to cite
are Tammy C. Whitlock's Crime, Gender and Consumer Culture in
the nineteenth century England and an essay and they're called
(04:06):
Solving the Problem of the Criminal Consumer Women in Cleptomania,
And then the book by Elaina Stabelson When Ladies Go
a Thieving, which I love the title of it sounds
like we should write a song about it. Indeed. But
so these these sources talk about the rise of not
only shoplifting, but kleptomania in particular, as kind of a
(04:27):
symptom of the times. Uh, A lot of things, a
lot of conditions were being medicalized that previously had you
would have just gotten hanged for. But so let's look
at what's going on. We've got the industrial revolution, right,
so goods were being made in bulk in factories, not
at home. This leads to the rise of the consumer
culture and the middle class who suddenly has a lot
of leisure time. Can you tell that I'm glossing over
(04:48):
a lot of stuff? Well, so, during this time, women
are still responsible for doing most of the consuming and
acquiring goods for the family. But with this rise in
new goods, you know, bulk items. You have these new
department stores or the precursors to department stores that offered
a kind of freedom in this titilating environment of of items.
(05:11):
So how do we explain at this time, women, these
middle class women who were well off, how do we
explain them stealing? Well, we do that in the language
of physical and mental illness. Yeah, early in the nineteenth century, um,
there was an idea that this compulsive shoplifting only affected
(05:32):
women and why because certainly had to do with uterine
disease or pre menstrual tension. That was I mean, those
were the explanations at the time. And uh, there was
a quote talking about how it began as a genderless,
if not classless ailment. But then the cliptomania diagnosis slowly
developed throughout the nineteenth century to become the favored explanation
(05:54):
for cases of female middle class shoplifting, because it would
have been so handles for a middle class woman to
be sent to jail as a common criminal. So if
you were a poor woman at the time and you
got caught stealing, then you were just stealing and you
got sent to jail because you were a thief. But
if you are were a woman of any means whatsoever,
(06:14):
then you were simply being sort of uh compelled by
your crazy uterus to steal something, and so you needed
medical treatment, not prison time. And for Jane Austen fans
out there, her aunt was one of the first big
shoplifting cases that affected because she was a middle class
(06:38):
woman and she was caught stealing a spool of lace
from a store. And at the time, cleptomania really was
not a term that had been widely circulated. But after
the fact she became labeled as a kleptomaniac because why
else would a woman of her means in standing steal
a spool of lace? And speaking of lace, I mean
(06:58):
that was a hot commodity back in the day. These
middle class women were doing their darndists to get their
hands on uh expensive silks, ribbons, like we said, lace.
They weren't going and stealing like a cantalope. I mean,
they were stealing like things to make themselves look fancy.
And it wasn't too hard to conceal those items because
(07:22):
they were wearing so many clothes that they could literally
just sneak it up into their bustle or something like that.
And trot out of the store. Um and the fact
that there was new plate glass window technology that facilitated
these large storefront displays for the very first time, and
you had merchandise out on the floor in a way
(07:44):
that it had never been before. And so all of
a sudden you just have this these smorgas board of
things that women could take. But the whole shoplifting craze portrayed,
it was portrayed as you know, an affliction of these
mad women, because it was usually wealthier women who probably
could have afforded to buy that spool of lace. Right,
(08:06):
But this whole, this whole diagnosis itself of kleptomania is
so waited, it's so it has so much baggage and
is so heavily value laden because it says so much
about the views of women themselves. It's not just about
stealing stuff. It's about there is something wrong with women.
Women are inferior. There must be something wrong with them
(08:28):
to make them take the stuff that they don't need.
A poor woman, sure, well, she's poor, she needs to
steal that stuff. What what could possibly explain a wealthier
woman stealing Well, it's simply the ova stimulation of the bazaars,
doctors would say, because again it was very fashionable to
be seen at these places. This was the error when
you have the rise of conspicuous consumption and you want
(08:51):
to look good and being seen out shopping was a
sign of your class. And so doctors are thinking, well,
I mean, these women are are leaving the home and
they're just seeing all these things and they don't know
what to do. And of course in the nineteen tens,
Freudians would link it to female sexual repression, because why
else would a woman steal but to fill some barren
hole in her womb with lace, with lace, lacey womb.
(09:16):
I love it, but yeah, they did. They linked it
to sexual desire to like, well, they're just acquiring and
acquiring and acquiring, because maybe they're not acquiring at home.
And it's also interesting to see how our perception of
kleptomania what drives it changes over time. After World War One,
for instance, it was considered a sign of acting out
(09:37):
to soothe mass trauma, because that's the hallmark of kleptomania,
you don't actually need things. Stealing is different from kleptomaniac
shoplifting because, for instance, with the case of Winona Ryder
in two dozen two and she got caught stealing from
Saxfith Avenue a lot of the garments that she had.
(09:58):
She had carelessly the tag out, so there were holes
in the clothes. She was never going to wear them.
She just got the thrill, apparently out of stealing them.
So a clinician said, yeah, I mean it's interesting. I
this is another topic Kristen where I'm like that, that's
not me. No, none of this has ever applied to me.
It did, and it did once. Yeah, you were you
(10:20):
a little cleptomaniac. I literally a little cleptomaniac. And I
only did it once, and the shame was enough to
make sure that I never did it again. I my
parents would take me to this like neighborhood nanny babysitter
person sometimes. And there was one day where I was leaving.
My parents had come to get me right as another
family was dropping off their little girl for an overnight stay,
(10:41):
and her overnight bag carelessly just left there in the hallway.
And I walked by and I saw this little stuff bunny,
and I was like, well, that's gonna be mine now,
and so I took it and it was like this
little bunny that I had no need for. It wasn't
even that cute, like it was in a little Ballerina costume.
Oh god, if that little girls listening, who's a grown
up woman? Now? I'm really really sorry. But I never
(11:02):
used it. I never played with it. I hated to
look at it. I just threw it to the bottom
of my toy chest. And it wasn't until I think
I was cleaning out the basement and my parents house
like years later that I found and was like, oh god, trash.
I just didn't even want to look at it again.
Oh no, because you were so I was so ashamed. Yeah,
yeah I was. I think I was always too too
terrified to steal anything. Um. But because it was so
(11:28):
initially associated with women, and even still I feel like
if you if you say the word kleptomania, people say,
oh when own a writer or just something that women
tend to do, because it was so gendered from the
get go. There was an interesting thing that happened in
the nineteen seventies, and this is coming from an article
published in the New Inquiry talking about kleptomania as a
(11:50):
woman's disease. Why we think of it that way, and
Auther talks about how in the seventies it was no
longer treated as a disorder but as an ideology, saying
that the hip, rebellious, typically male shoplifter had been invented,
both in real life and on the page. And the
author goes on to talk about how books like Saul
Bellows Augie Marsh portray these almost romantic shoplifters like Augie
(12:14):
Marsh would always steal books and and what what a
wonderful thing for a young man to do. You know,
he just steals books because he wants to read, um,
whereas you know, a woman stealing clothes is deranged with
a wandering womb or something. Um. But she goes on
to talk about how New York there's a New York
Times article that came out a couple of years ago
(12:34):
citing the most commonly stolen authors, and it says, quote,
it's mostly younger men stealing the books. They think it's
an existential rite of passage to steal their homeboy. Um.
So that's just an interesting example of how it's applied
differently to men, because I guess because it's thought of
(12:55):
as as just something that women do just out of
for quality almost right. And one recent pop culture reference
to kleptomania, especially the term just getting thrown around, was
the Bling Ring, which is has been made into a movie. Um.
There these were five teens who stole more than three
million dollars in jewelry and designer goods from young Hollywood
(13:18):
kids like Paris Hilton, Lindsay Lohan, Megan Fox, et cetera
between October two thousand and eight to August two thousand nine,
and one of the teens, Nick Prugo, claimed that it
was peer pressure that he really just wanted to keep
his friends, one of whom was Rachel Lee, who he
said was the ring leader. So then Rachel was described
by another one of the teens as a klepto freak.
(13:40):
But as we'll get into when we talk about the definitions,
and as we've talked about a little bit, is Rachel
Lee really a cleptomaniac? Not really if we look at
the definition, because she tended to be doing it out
of just revenge or boredom or an obsession with celebrity fashion. Yeah,
she wanted those the clothes that they had so badly,
at least in the way that uh, Prugo told it
(14:02):
to Vanity Fair writer Nancy Joe Sales, and um it
reminded me though really quickly, when I was reading When
Ladies Go a Thieving My note is ye old bling
ring because talking about in the nineteenth century, it seems
like the exact same thing as was driving Rachel Lee
and the other members of the Bling Ring UH in
(14:23):
two thousand and eight and two thousand nine when they
were going on their thieving rampage. UH. In the nineteenth century,
for the female shoplifter, drapery firms remained the favorite haunts,
and women continue to steal items like lace and ribbon,
which were expensive and easily purloined, and the boulder shoplifters
favored the expensive silks, which could be quickly and profitably liquidated.
(14:45):
And also one of the largest categories for theft at
the time for which women were actually sent out to
Australian penal colonies was the theft of wearing apparel, just
the same kind of thing we were stealing other people's clothes,
being obsessed with a look or an image. But again,
though that question, it would Rachel Lee and similar Bling
(15:08):
ringers actually be kleptomaniacs because there is that irresistible urge
to steal items that they don't generally need. All of
the kids came from well off families, well off enough
that they certainly could buy their own clothes, right Yeah.
And I mean, the definition of kleptomania, like we said,
is that irresistible urge to steal items that you generally
(15:30):
don't need. But they weren't doing the other hallmark, which
is stealing items of little value. These items literally were
very valuable, including just wads of cash that they would
find laying around sometimes. Um. The Mayo Clinic describes it
as an impulse controlled disorder, usually under the umbrella of
things like pyromania, trick tillamnia, which is when you compulsively
(15:52):
eat your own hair, compulsive gambling. It's something where you
cannot resist the temptation to perform an act even though
you know that it's harmful to yourself or somebody else.
And it's usually spontaneous and also in public places. And
that spontaneity makes me think that a clinician would not
diagnose the blingering with kleptomania because they planned it out
(16:14):
pretty carefully. I mean, they might be kind of like celebrity, obsessive,
um or envious of a certain lifestyle. But I don't
know that they would be quite the same as a
true cleptomaniac. And let's not forget that again, this is
not the same thing as shoplifting. Fewer than five percent
of shoplifters are actual compulsive cleptomaniacs. Yeah. And even though
(16:35):
there has been no epidemiological study on kleptomania, which is
kind of surprising considering how casually we tend to throw
out the term um, some clinicians suggests that at least
point six percent of the general population would fall under
the kleptomaniac category. Um. But that shame and embarrassment that's
(16:56):
often associated with the kleptomania cycle of stealing and then
like you did, Caroline, you felt terrible about it and
you were embarrassed, UM something that maybe because of that,
it's underestimated because no one wants to report it. No
one wants to fuss up unless they actually got caught
in the act and had to write. Well, it's interesting though,
I mean, there is that cycle of symptoms, but it's
(17:18):
cleptomania is actually linked to a lot of things. Like
we said, it's an impulse control disorder that does also
have links to eating disorders, but it also has linked
to depression, and researchers have found that a lot of
times this the theft itself is used to alleviate depression symptoms,
and patients with cleptomania that they've studied do report high
(17:39):
lifetime rates of depression that usually ends up proceeding that behavior. Well,
it makes sense because it's usually a three part process
where a cleptomania will feel this increased tension where they
have to steal something, and so then they do it,
and they initially feel gratification pleasure like oh, they got
(17:59):
away with it, okay, But then the game, the guilt
and shame set in and it starts back all over again,
which certainly would play into depressive symptoms and probably feed depression.
And considering that pattern of the tension leading up to it,
in the initial gratification, even though you know you're doing
(18:19):
something that's probably not good for you. Clutomania is often
related to addictive behaviors, and some people think that stealing
triggers a dopamine release, which is why you feel so good.
It's the same way where if you are an alcoholic,
for instance, there's that tension leading up to you getting
that first drink and then you feel that release once
(18:40):
you finally become intoxicated. Then afterwards the guilt and shame. Right,
And there is also an overarching theory which I had
never heard of before during this research. There's a theory
that it could have something to do with problematic connections
between different parts of the brain talking to each other,
and that possibly people with head injuries could damage circuits
(19:01):
between the orbital and frontal lobes of the brain, causing
low blood flow and like we said, bad connections, So
there could be like an actual physical reason too that
this is happening. Yeah, because the parts of the brain
that they think might be affected or dysfunctional in a
way are the parts involving information exchange. And then the
(19:22):
part of the brain the limbic system that controls our
moods and desires. So it's like something is breaking down
between um, what we're being compelled to do and what
we know we should not do, and then how we
are deriving uh, senses of satisfaction and things like that. Right,
And if you look at the comorbid condition rates, other
(19:44):
impulse control disorders make up twenty of co occurring conditions
substance use mood disorders to a hundred percent of people
presenting with cleptomania, and a lot of times too. This
is something that star it's at a very young age.
Even though it might take a while for someone to
(20:04):
get caught, it's not uncommon for the compulsive thieving to
begin at an age as young as five. And Terence Shulman,
who's the founder and director of the Shulman Center for
Compulsive Theft, Spending and Hoarding, says that most people start
out stealing just a little bit, usually in reaction to
some sort of emotional distress or as an act of rebellion, right,
(20:28):
something like being overdisciplined, abused, or even shamed. And psychologist
Jeff Guardair said that, yeah, it could be a sign
of emotional disturbance, lack of permanence in their lives, taking
back power from a strictly disciplined childhood. So maybe this
is just children. I mean, I have no idea why
I did it. I had a perfectly normal childhood, I
mean relatively well, you still once, I don't think that
(20:49):
would be Like, I don't know what compelled me to
do it then, because I absolutely did not need it.
It's not something I particularly wanted. It had no value
to me. It was just like it's there, an I'm
gonna take it, and it's gonna be mine. But it
sounds like that classic thing of testing boundaries, just saying
I probably shouldn't do this, but I'm gonna do it anyway.
I know. I was like, it's like a total cartoon
(21:11):
moment of like shifty eyes looking around grabbing it. Don't
even know if my parents noticed, but yeah, I mean,
it could just be that these children, maybe for whatever reason,
feel a little out of control and are seeking to
do something to sort of bring a sense of control back.
But obviously, if the behavior continues and UM becomes a
cycle in someone's life, there are treatments out there for it. UM.
(21:33):
It's not uncommon for cleptomania to be treated with antidepressants,
mood stabilizers, anti seizure medications, or addiction medications, depending on
what the comorbidity is because usually you cleptomania isn't just
existing in a silo. There are other things that are
going on as well, which is also why, in addition
to medication, psychotherapy is also used pretty often, right, But so,
(21:58):
you know, we've talked about the symptoms then and what
kleptomania kind of almost forces you to do, and how
that diagnosis came about, and how it was used to
defend people. But nowadays it's really not that great of
a legal defense because it's kind of just not taken
that seriously. Yeah, I mean, we should note that cleptomania
(22:20):
has only been intermittently recognized by the American Psychiatric Association
that publishes the d s M, which is the you know,
the Bible as it's often called, of mental illness. It's
only been recognized off and on since the nineteen fifties,
and in nineteen sixty two it was listed in the
d s M as a supplementary term, not a primary diagnosis.
(22:41):
Then in sixty eight it was admitted altogether, and then
in nineteen eighty it was reintroduced as an impulse controlled disorder. So, yeah,
in light of all that, there is a question of
whether kleptomania is a unique mental disorder that people suffer from,
since it often does co occur with other psycholo logical
disorders like addiction, eating disorder, and depression, And it seems
(23:05):
like what kleptomania experts are trying to figure out at
this point is kind of what goes along with it,
because Terence Shulman, who I referenced earlier, talks about how,
you know, stealing can become addictive for many people as
it mimics addiction to other negative behaviors like gambling. But
(23:27):
the cleptomania by itself shouldn't be seen as an addiction.
It's more, he says, the feelings that cause people to
act out and do it, that's what should be diagnosed,
such as underlying anxiety, depression, compulsion, and o c D. Right, so,
as far as legal defenses go, I mean, cleptomania just
doesn't seem like it would get you very far well,
(23:49):
And I wonder once you start looking back at the
roots of the term and how it came about as
really a safety net for middle class women to keep
them out of prisons, and also tying in with that
these antiquated Victorian notions that women were simply inferior, and
a lot of female affliction in quotes was often just
(24:10):
linked back to some form of hysteria dealing with either
sexual repression or us not being able to have a baby.
In our arms so that we wouldn't be able to
steal lace or something like that. I wonder too, though,
and this is a question for any experts out there
whether it's even a term that should exist at all.
I mean, it's obviously an impulse control problem. It's a
(24:33):
it's a disorder, but I feel like the term has
become it's so has such a loaded and incorrect history, right, Like,
I mean, like it obviously seems more like a sub
type of impulse Well, it is, it's a subtype of
impulse control disorder, but maybe you should just say that
person has an impulse controlled disorder that causes them to steal,
(24:54):
or to gamble, or to pull their hair out. And
kind of on the reverse of this, um, I think
it's seems like a lot more attention needs to be
paid to that potential gender bias that if a woman
is caught stealing, she's a lot more likely to be
psychiatrically evaluated. So why why don't we offer the same
thing to men, because obviously it's it's probably happening for
(25:17):
them as well. It could just be like that division
between middle class women and poor women in nineteenth century England,
well and that's I mean, that gets into a whole
conversation about how we view who a criminal is. Right,
we just assume men are doing things maliciously, that they're
committing crimes, whereas, oh, well that woman must be mentally ill, yeah,
or she you know it can't be helped in some
(25:37):
way because she must be driven because of destitution, or
she has mouths defeed or something like that. So it's
funny like as I was reading these these historical perspectives
on kleptomania, my overarching thought was, oh, good, so women
couldn't even have agency in their own crimes. That's good.
So basically we're arguing for the at the hammer of
(26:00):
the law to come down harder on women. No, no, Well,
it's always uh interested to hear from listeners. UM, if
you have experienced kleptomania, if it's something that you deal with,
definitely let us know. Well, we will protect your anonymity. UM.
But I would be curious to know if any of
the jibs with UM someone's experience with it. UM. And
(26:25):
also I hope that those historical tidbits about clepto mania
and Jane Austen's and I hope that that was as
fun for you to learn as it was for me
and Caroline to learn. So send us your thoughts about
clepto mania, shoplifting, thievery, the blingering. Has anybody seen it?
I want to see it. Uh. You can send your
(26:45):
emails to mom Stuff at Discovery dot com, or you
can tweet us at mom Stuff Podcast, or of course
you can send us a message on Facebook as well.
And we've got a couple of messages to read when
we get back from a quick break. And now that
to some letters, Kristen, here is one from Amanda. She says,
I loved your podcast on seeing through glasses stereotypes because
(27:09):
I am the poster child for dateless nearsightedness. My sister, however,
who needs no such help with her vision, has had
no such trouble. No complaints here, though, true to your findings,
I am more often stereotyped as intelligent looking and more
capable than my glasses less friends. Next time a guy
catches my eye, I suppose I'll ditch my frames for contacts,
(27:31):
though I'm still holding out for a saintly male who
can see worth even in those cursed with horrible vision. Amanda,
don't ditch your glasses for boys. You do what makes
you happy, slash able to see men will make passes
at girls who wear glasses. Well, I've got one here
(27:51):
from Michelle and the subject line is douching can be
fun not she right? And and just just the warning
out there she's about to talk about the giants, So
here we go. Michelle says, hello there, Oh, how I
wish I had found your podcast a month ago. I
could have saved myself a lot of uncomfortable times. I
(28:13):
just found you guys this past week and have been
listening to some podcasts from way back when, including one
on douching. My mom was supremely uncomfortable taking me just
to buy bras, so of course asked me her about
douching was a way out of the question. So I
found out about it through my husband. I had a discharged.
It smelled a little iffy for a couple of days,
and we couldn't afford a trip at the doctor's office.
Asking my mom for advice was not going to happen.
(28:35):
But thankfully his family dynamics are very different than money,
he had no problem asking his mom. She recommended douching.
She's been doing it all of her life to counter
her frequent urinary tract infections. So, having no idea whatsoever
what I was getting into, I decided to douche hello
and behold, two days later, I was blessed with my
very first yearinary tract infection. While chugging cranberry juice, I
(28:58):
decided to finally research douching and found the same results
that you guys reported. Never again will I try anything
involving my body without some extra research. Michelle, I'm so
sorry to hear that you had to go through with that.
And as I was reading the email in the note
about how your mother in law has douche all of
her life to counter her frequent urinary tract infections, I
(29:21):
think I know why she gets frequent urinary tract infections. Yeah,
I think a single trip to the doctor for a diagnosis,
maybe some antibiotics, get get a nice check up in
a pats near like let's not well, as she notes, though,
you know, she couldn't afford a trip to a Dartnell.
I'm talking about her mother in law. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah,
I'm I'm saying that that that years long cycle of
(29:41):
her mother in law has been experiencing, Like why would
you want to continue experiencing that well, because a lot
as we talked about in the podcast, a lot of
a lot of women don't know because their mother handed
it down to them as the way to keep their
vagina's clean. But as we have set up in on
this podcast, done with a douche, just say no the
douche ladies, why it still exists? I it bobbles my mind? Yeah, um,
(30:06):
but you're not alone though, according to the US Health
and Human Services of Women Ages, I believe still douche.
So break the cycle. Break the cycle, ladies. And Jen's
just just saying them all right. So that's it. If
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(30:27):
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(30:51):
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Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from hostal corks
dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Caroline
and I'm Kristen. Um. Something interesting about our topic today
is the link, the gendered link between women and stealing stuff,
(00:25):
which called me ignorant, Kristen, But I really did not
know that the origins of the concept of kleptomania lay
with ladies. Yeah, I didn't know that either. First of
let's just offer an umbrella view of shoplifting in the
United States. There's a lot of people do it, a lot,
so many people in fact, that it costs US retailers
(00:48):
ten billion dollars a year, but they only catch about
twenty four per cent of them. But among all of
those shoplifters, very few would qualify as kleptomaniacs. Yeah, there
is a difference between just somebody who shoplifts or steal
stuff and an actual kleptomaniac. The word itself comes from
(01:10):
the Greek cleptin to steal, although it was first called
klopomania and was coined in eighteen sixteen by Andrew Mathai,
a Swiss doctor, who defined it as both a desire
for theft and theft without need, and this very sensitive
doctor used it to describe thieves who impulsively stole unneeded
items out of quote unquote pure insanity. Yeah. And then
(01:32):
a little while later in eighteen forty, a pair of
French doctors later changed the word to kleptomania to describe
behaviors characterized by irresistible involuntary urges. And the two points
about theft without need and the involuntary urge is gonna
be something really important when it becomes applied specifically to women,
(01:55):
because kleptomania is often thought of as a woman's disease,
because us two thirds of diagnosed kleptomaniacs are women, right,
and we should look at this as we have pointed
on in other issues of the mind that we have
talked about before, Women tend to present with more psychological
issues like this because they tend to go seek actual
(02:18):
mental health help more than men do. Yeah. Some wonder
whether there is a gender bias at work in terms
of that diagnosis of kleptomania more for women, since women
who steal tend to get a psychiatric evaluation, whereas men
who steal tend to get prison time. Well, we are
(02:38):
very delicate flowers, So thank god. Um anyway, kleptomania, it
turns out we're right when we say that it's not
necessarily that more women than men experience kleptomania. We both
get it, but we get it differently. This is coming
from a two thousand eight study and seeing us spectrums.
They looked at nine adults for two thousand one to
(03:00):
two thousand seven with kleptomania. Both men and women showed
substantial symptoms, but women were more likely to be married,
have a later age at shoplifting onset, steal household items
and hoard those stolen items, and have an eating disorder.
They were less likely, however, to steal electronics than men
(03:20):
and less likely to have another impulse controlled disorder. So
those researchers concluded that when it comes to kleptomania that
they really need to take gender into account in terms
of devising prevention and treatment strategies. But I mean, it's
almost impossible to disentangle gender and women from kleptomania because
(03:43):
if we go back in time to when the term
was being developed and passed around, it was something that
developed as an answer to the rise of shoplifting. Specifically
among women. And the sources that were about to cite
are Tammy C. Whitlock's Crime, Gender and Consumer Culture in
the nineteenth century England and an essay and they're called
(04:06):
Solving the Problem of the Criminal Consumer Women in Cleptomania,
And then the book by Elaina Stabelson When Ladies Go
a Thieving, which I love the title of it sounds
like we should write a song about it. Indeed. But
so these these sources talk about the rise of not
only shoplifting, but kleptomania in particular, as kind of a
(04:27):
symptom of the times. Uh, A lot of things, a
lot of conditions were being medicalized that previously had you
would have just gotten hanged for. But so let's look
at what's going on. We've got the industrial revolution, right,
so goods were being made in bulk in factories, not
at home. This leads to the rise of the consumer
culture and the middle class who suddenly has a lot
of leisure time. Can you tell that I'm glossing over
(04:48):
a lot of stuff? Well, so, during this time, women
are still responsible for doing most of the consuming and
acquiring goods for the family. But with this rise in
new goods, you know, bulk items. You have these new
department stores or the precursors to department stores that offered
a kind of freedom in this titilating environment of of items.
(05:11):
So how do we explain at this time, women, these
middle class women who were well off, how do we
explain them stealing? Well, we do that in the language
of physical and mental illness. Yeah, early in the nineteenth century, um,
there was an idea that this compulsive shoplifting only affected
(05:32):
women and why because certainly had to do with uterine
disease or pre menstrual tension. That was I mean, those
were the explanations at the time. And uh, there was
a quote talking about how it began as a genderless,
if not classless ailment. But then the cliptomania diagnosis slowly
developed throughout the nineteenth century to become the favored explanation
(05:54):
for cases of female middle class shoplifting, because it would
have been so handles for a middle class woman to
be sent to jail as a common criminal. So if
you were a poor woman at the time and you
got caught stealing, then you were just stealing and you
got sent to jail because you were a thief. But
if you are were a woman of any means whatsoever,
(06:14):
then you were simply being sort of uh compelled by
your crazy uterus to steal something, and so you needed
medical treatment, not prison time. And for Jane Austen fans
out there, her aunt was one of the first big
shoplifting cases that affected because she was a middle class
(06:38):
woman and she was caught stealing a spool of lace
from a store. And at the time, cleptomania really was
not a term that had been widely circulated. But after
the fact she became labeled as a kleptomaniac because why
else would a woman of her means in standing steal
a spool of lace? And speaking of lace, I mean
(06:58):
that was a hot commodity back in the day. These
middle class women were doing their darndists to get their
hands on uh expensive silks, ribbons, like we said, lace.
They weren't going and stealing like a cantalope. I mean,
they were stealing like things to make themselves look fancy.
And it wasn't too hard to conceal those items because
(07:22):
they were wearing so many clothes that they could literally
just sneak it up into their bustle or something like that.
And trot out of the store. Um and the fact
that there was new plate glass window technology that facilitated
these large storefront displays for the very first time, and
you had merchandise out on the floor in a way
(07:44):
that it had never been before. And so all of
a sudden you just have this these smorgas board of
things that women could take. But the whole shoplifting craze portrayed,
it was portrayed as you know, an affliction of these
mad women, because it was usually wealthier women who probably
could have afforded to buy that spool of lace. Right,
(08:06):
But this whole, this whole diagnosis itself of kleptomania is
so waited, it's so it has so much baggage and
is so heavily value laden because it says so much
about the views of women themselves. It's not just about
stealing stuff. It's about there is something wrong with women.
Women are inferior. There must be something wrong with them
(08:28):
to make them take the stuff that they don't need.
A poor woman, sure, well, she's poor, she needs to
steal that stuff. What what could possibly explain a wealthier
woman stealing Well, it's simply the ova stimulation of the bazaars,
doctors would say, because again it was very fashionable to
be seen at these places. This was the error when
you have the rise of conspicuous consumption and you want
(08:51):
to look good and being seen out shopping was a
sign of your class. And so doctors are thinking, well,
I mean, these women are are leaving the home and
they're just seeing all these things and they don't know
what to do. And of course in the nineteen tens,
Freudians would link it to female sexual repression, because why
else would a woman steal but to fill some barren
hole in her womb with lace, with lace, lacey womb.
(09:16):
I love it, but yeah, they did. They linked it
to sexual desire to like, well, they're just acquiring and
acquiring and acquiring, because maybe they're not acquiring at home.
And it's also interesting to see how our perception of
kleptomania what drives it changes over time. After World War One,
for instance, it was considered a sign of acting out
(09:37):
to soothe mass trauma, because that's the hallmark of kleptomania,
you don't actually need things. Stealing is different from kleptomaniac
shoplifting because, for instance, with the case of Winona Ryder
in two dozen two and she got caught stealing from
Saxfith Avenue a lot of the garments that she had.
(09:58):
She had carelessly the tag out, so there were holes
in the clothes. She was never going to wear them.
She just got the thrill, apparently out of stealing them.
So a clinician said, yeah, I mean it's interesting. I
this is another topic Kristen where I'm like that, that's
not me. No, none of this has ever applied to me.
It did, and it did once. Yeah, you were you
(10:20):
a little cleptomaniac. I literally a little cleptomaniac. And I
only did it once, and the shame was enough to
make sure that I never did it again. I my
parents would take me to this like neighborhood nanny babysitter
person sometimes. And there was one day where I was leaving.
My parents had come to get me right as another
family was dropping off their little girl for an overnight stay,
(10:41):
and her overnight bag carelessly just left there in the hallway.
And I walked by and I saw this little stuff bunny,
and I was like, well, that's gonna be mine now,
and so I took it and it was like this
little bunny that I had no need for. It wasn't
even that cute, like it was in a little Ballerina costume.
Oh god, if that little girls listening, who's a grown
up woman? Now? I'm really really sorry. But I never
(11:02):
used it. I never played with it. I hated to
look at it. I just threw it to the bottom
of my toy chest. And it wasn't until I think
I was cleaning out the basement and my parents house
like years later that I found and was like, oh god, trash.
I just didn't even want to look at it again.
Oh no, because you were so I was so ashamed. Yeah,
yeah I was. I think I was always too too
terrified to steal anything. Um. But because it was so
(11:28):
initially associated with women, and even still I feel like
if you if you say the word kleptomania, people say,
oh when own a writer or just something that women
tend to do, because it was so gendered from the
get go. There was an interesting thing that happened in
the nineteen seventies, and this is coming from an article
published in the New Inquiry talking about kleptomania as a
(11:50):
woman's disease. Why we think of it that way, and
Auther talks about how in the seventies it was no
longer treated as a disorder but as an ideology, saying
that the hip, rebellious, typically male shoplifter had been invented,
both in real life and on the page. And the
author goes on to talk about how books like Saul
Bellows Augie Marsh portray these almost romantic shoplifters like Augie
(12:14):
Marsh would always steal books and and what what a
wonderful thing for a young man to do. You know,
he just steals books because he wants to read, um,
whereas you know, a woman stealing clothes is deranged with
a wandering womb or something. Um. But she goes on
to talk about how New York there's a New York
Times article that came out a couple of years ago
(12:34):
citing the most commonly stolen authors, and it says, quote,
it's mostly younger men stealing the books. They think it's
an existential rite of passage to steal their homeboy. Um.
So that's just an interesting example of how it's applied
differently to men, because I guess because it's thought of
(12:55):
as as just something that women do just out of
for quality almost right. And one recent pop culture reference
to kleptomania, especially the term just getting thrown around, was
the Bling Ring, which is has been made into a movie. Um.
There these were five teens who stole more than three
million dollars in jewelry and designer goods from young Hollywood
(13:18):
kids like Paris Hilton, Lindsay Lohan, Megan Fox, et cetera
between October two thousand and eight to August two thousand nine,
and one of the teens, Nick Prugo, claimed that it
was peer pressure that he really just wanted to keep
his friends, one of whom was Rachel Lee, who he
said was the ring leader. So then Rachel was described
by another one of the teens as a klepto freak.
(13:40):
But as we'll get into when we talk about the definitions,
and as we've talked about a little bit, is Rachel
Lee really a cleptomaniac? Not really if we look at
the definition, because she tended to be doing it out
of just revenge or boredom or an obsession with celebrity fashion. Yeah,
she wanted those the clothes that they had so badly,
at least in the way that uh, Prugo told it
(14:02):
to Vanity Fair writer Nancy Joe Sales, and um it
reminded me though really quickly, when I was reading When
Ladies Go a Thieving My note is ye old bling
ring because talking about in the nineteenth century, it seems
like the exact same thing as was driving Rachel Lee
and the other members of the Bling Ring UH in
(14:23):
two thousand and eight and two thousand nine when they
were going on their thieving rampage. UH. In the nineteenth century,
for the female shoplifter, drapery firms remained the favorite haunts,
and women continue to steal items like lace and ribbon,
which were expensive and easily purloined, and the boulder shoplifters
favored the expensive silks, which could be quickly and profitably liquidated.
(14:45):
And also one of the largest categories for theft at
the time for which women were actually sent out to
Australian penal colonies was the theft of wearing apparel, just
the same kind of thing we were stealing other people's clothes,
being obsessed with a look or an image. But again,
though that question, it would Rachel Lee and similar Bling
(15:08):
ringers actually be kleptomaniacs because there is that irresistible urge
to steal items that they don't generally need. All of
the kids came from well off families, well off enough
that they certainly could buy their own clothes, right Yeah.
And I mean, the definition of kleptomania, like we said,
is that irresistible urge to steal items that you generally
(15:30):
don't need. But they weren't doing the other hallmark, which
is stealing items of little value. These items literally were
very valuable, including just wads of cash that they would
find laying around sometimes. Um. The Mayo Clinic describes it
as an impulse controlled disorder, usually under the umbrella of
things like pyromania, trick tillamnia, which is when you compulsively
(15:52):
eat your own hair, compulsive gambling. It's something where you
cannot resist the temptation to perform an act even though
you know that it's harmful to yourself or somebody else.
And it's usually spontaneous and also in public places. And
that spontaneity makes me think that a clinician would not
diagnose the blingering with kleptomania because they planned it out
(16:14):
pretty carefully. I mean, they might be kind of like celebrity, obsessive,
um or envious of a certain lifestyle. But I don't
know that they would be quite the same as a
true cleptomaniac. And let's not forget that again, this is
not the same thing as shoplifting. Fewer than five percent
of shoplifters are actual compulsive cleptomaniacs. Yeah. And even though
(16:35):
there has been no epidemiological study on kleptomania, which is
kind of surprising considering how casually we tend to throw
out the term um, some clinicians suggests that at least
point six percent of the general population would fall under
the kleptomaniac category. Um. But that shame and embarrassment that's
(16:56):
often associated with the kleptomania cycle of stealing and then
like you did, Caroline, you felt terrible about it and
you were embarrassed, UM something that maybe because of that,
it's underestimated because no one wants to report it. No
one wants to fuss up unless they actually got caught
in the act and had to write. Well, it's interesting though,
I mean, there is that cycle of symptoms, but it's
(17:18):
cleptomania is actually linked to a lot of things. Like
we said, it's an impulse control disorder that does also
have links to eating disorders, but it also has linked
to depression, and researchers have found that a lot of
times this the theft itself is used to alleviate depression symptoms,
and patients with cleptomania that they've studied do report high
(17:39):
lifetime rates of depression that usually ends up proceeding that behavior. Well,
it makes sense because it's usually a three part process
where a cleptomania will feel this increased tension where they
have to steal something, and so then they do it,
and they initially feel gratification pleasure like oh, they got
(17:59):
away with it, okay, But then the game, the guilt
and shame set in and it starts back all over again,
which certainly would play into depressive symptoms and probably feed depression.
And considering that pattern of the tension leading up to it,
in the initial gratification, even though you know you're doing
(18:19):
something that's probably not good for you. Clutomania is often
related to addictive behaviors, and some people think that stealing
triggers a dopamine release, which is why you feel so good.
It's the same way where if you are an alcoholic,
for instance, there's that tension leading up to you getting
that first drink and then you feel that release once
(18:40):
you finally become intoxicated. Then afterwards the guilt and shame. Right,
And there is also an overarching theory which I had
never heard of before during this research. There's a theory
that it could have something to do with problematic connections
between different parts of the brain talking to each other,
and that possibly people with head injuries could damage circuits
(19:01):
between the orbital and frontal lobes of the brain, causing
low blood flow and like we said, bad connections, So
there could be like an actual physical reason too that
this is happening. Yeah, because the parts of the brain
that they think might be affected or dysfunctional in a
way are the parts involving information exchange. And then the
(19:22):
part of the brain the limbic system that controls our
moods and desires. So it's like something is breaking down
between um, what we're being compelled to do and what
we know we should not do, and then how we
are deriving uh, senses of satisfaction and things like that. Right,
And if you look at the comorbid condition rates, other
(19:44):
impulse control disorders make up twenty of co occurring conditions
substance use mood disorders to a hundred percent of people
presenting with cleptomania, and a lot of times too. This
is something that star it's at a very young age.
Even though it might take a while for someone to
(20:04):
get caught, it's not uncommon for the compulsive thieving to
begin at an age as young as five. And Terence Shulman,
who's the founder and director of the Shulman Center for
Compulsive Theft, Spending and Hoarding, says that most people start
out stealing just a little bit, usually in reaction to
some sort of emotional distress or as an act of rebellion, right,
(20:28):
something like being overdisciplined, abused, or even shamed. And psychologist
Jeff Guardair said that, yeah, it could be a sign
of emotional disturbance, lack of permanence in their lives, taking
back power from a strictly disciplined childhood. So maybe this
is just children. I mean, I have no idea why
I did it. I had a perfectly normal childhood, I
mean relatively well, you still once, I don't think that
(20:49):
would be Like, I don't know what compelled me to
do it then, because I absolutely did not need it.
It's not something I particularly wanted. It had no value
to me. It was just like it's there, an I'm
gonna take it, and it's gonna be mine. But it
sounds like that classic thing of testing boundaries, just saying
I probably shouldn't do this, but I'm gonna do it anyway.
I know. I was like, it's like a total cartoon
(21:11):
moment of like shifty eyes looking around grabbing it. Don't
even know if my parents noticed, but yeah, I mean,
it could just be that these children, maybe for whatever reason,
feel a little out of control and are seeking to
do something to sort of bring a sense of control back.
But obviously, if the behavior continues and UM becomes a
cycle in someone's life, there are treatments out there for it. UM.
(21:33):
It's not uncommon for cleptomania to be treated with antidepressants,
mood stabilizers, anti seizure medications, or addiction medications, depending on
what the comorbidity is because usually you cleptomania isn't just
existing in a silo. There are other things that are
going on as well, which is also why, in addition
to medication, psychotherapy is also used pretty often, right, But so,
(21:58):
you know, we've talked about the symptoms then and what
kleptomania kind of almost forces you to do, and how
that diagnosis came about, and how it was used to
defend people. But nowadays it's really not that great of
a legal defense because it's kind of just not taken
that seriously. Yeah, I mean, we should note that cleptomania
(22:20):
has only been intermittently recognized by the American Psychiatric Association
that publishes the d s M, which is the you know,
the Bible as it's often called, of mental illness. It's
only been recognized off and on since the nineteen fifties,
and in nineteen sixty two it was listed in the
d s M as a supplementary term, not a primary diagnosis.
(22:41):
Then in sixty eight it was admitted altogether, and then
in nineteen eighty it was reintroduced as an impulse controlled disorder. So, yeah,
in light of all that, there is a question of
whether kleptomania is a unique mental disorder that people suffer from,
since it often does co occur with other psycholo logical
disorders like addiction, eating disorder, and depression, And it seems
(23:05):
like what kleptomania experts are trying to figure out at
this point is kind of what goes along with it,
because Terence Shulman, who I referenced earlier, talks about how,
you know, stealing can become addictive for many people as
it mimics addiction to other negative behaviors like gambling. But
(23:27):
the cleptomania by itself shouldn't be seen as an addiction.
It's more, he says, the feelings that cause people to
act out and do it, that's what should be diagnosed,
such as underlying anxiety, depression, compulsion, and o c D. Right, so,
as far as legal defenses go, I mean, cleptomania just
doesn't seem like it would get you very far well,
(23:49):
And I wonder once you start looking back at the
roots of the term and how it came about as
really a safety net for middle class women to keep
them out of prisons, and also tying in with that
these antiquated Victorian notions that women were simply inferior, and
a lot of female affliction in quotes was often just
(24:10):
linked back to some form of hysteria dealing with either
sexual repression or us not being able to have a baby.
In our arms so that we wouldn't be able to
steal lace or something like that. I wonder too, though,
and this is a question for any experts out there
whether it's even a term that should exist at all.
I mean, it's obviously an impulse control problem. It's a
(24:33):
it's a disorder, but I feel like the term has
become it's so has such a loaded and incorrect history, right, Like,
I mean, like it obviously seems more like a sub
type of impulse Well, it is, it's a subtype of
impulse control disorder, but maybe you should just say that
person has an impulse controlled disorder that causes them to steal,
(24:54):
or to gamble, or to pull their hair out. And
kind of on the reverse of this, um, I think
it's seems like a lot more attention needs to be
paid to that potential gender bias that if a woman
is caught stealing, she's a lot more likely to be
psychiatrically evaluated. So why why don't we offer the same
thing to men, because obviously it's it's probably happening for
(25:17):
them as well. It could just be like that division
between middle class women and poor women in nineteenth century England,
well and that's I mean, that gets into a whole
conversation about how we view who a criminal is. Right,
we just assume men are doing things maliciously, that they're
committing crimes, whereas, oh, well that woman must be mentally ill, yeah,
or she you know it can't be helped in some
(25:37):
way because she must be driven because of destitution, or
she has mouths defeed or something like that. So it's
funny like as I was reading these these historical perspectives
on kleptomania, my overarching thought was, oh, good, so women
couldn't even have agency in their own crimes. That's good.
So basically we're arguing for the at the hammer of
(26:00):
the law to come down harder on women. No, no, Well,
it's always uh interested to hear from listeners. UM, if
you have experienced kleptomania, if it's something that you deal with,
definitely let us know. Well, we will protect your anonymity. UM.
But I would be curious to know if any of
the jibs with UM someone's experience with it. UM. And
(26:25):
also I hope that those historical tidbits about clepto mania
and Jane Austen's and I hope that that was as
fun for you to learn as it was for me
and Caroline to learn. So send us your thoughts about
clepto mania, shoplifting, thievery, the blingering. Has anybody seen it?
I want to see it. Uh. You can send your
(26:45):
emails to mom Stuff at Discovery dot com, or you
can tweet us at mom Stuff Podcast, or of course
you can send us a message on Facebook as well.
And we've got a couple of messages to read when
we get back from a quick break. And now that
to some letters, Kristen, here is one from Amanda. She says,
I loved your podcast on seeing through glasses stereotypes because
(27:09):
I am the poster child for dateless nearsightedness. My sister, however,
who needs no such help with her vision, has had
no such trouble. No complaints here, though, true to your findings,
I am more often stereotyped as intelligent looking and more
capable than my glasses less friends. Next time a guy
catches my eye, I suppose I'll ditch my frames for contacts,
(27:31):
though I'm still holding out for a saintly male who
can see worth even in those cursed with horrible vision. Amanda,
don't ditch your glasses for boys. You do what makes
you happy, slash able to see men will make passes
at girls who wear glasses. Well, I've got one here
(27:51):
from Michelle and the subject line is douching can be
fun not she right? And and just just the warning
out there she's about to talk about the giants, So
here we go. Michelle says, hello there, Oh, how I
wish I had found your podcast a month ago. I
could have saved myself a lot of uncomfortable times. I
(28:13):
just found you guys this past week and have been
listening to some podcasts from way back when, including one
on douching. My mom was supremely uncomfortable taking me just
to buy bras, so of course asked me her about
douching was a way out of the question. So I
found out about it through my husband. I had a discharged.
It smelled a little iffy for a couple of days,
and we couldn't afford a trip at the doctor's office.
Asking my mom for advice was not going to happen.
(28:35):
But thankfully his family dynamics are very different than money,
he had no problem asking his mom. She recommended douching.
She's been doing it all of her life to counter
her frequent urinary tract infections. So, having no idea whatsoever
what I was getting into, I decided to douche hello
and behold, two days later, I was blessed with my
very first yearinary tract infection. While chugging cranberry juice, I
(28:58):
decided to finally research douching and found the same results
that you guys reported. Never again will I try anything
involving my body without some extra research. Michelle, I'm so
sorry to hear that you had to go through with that.
And as I was reading the email in the note
about how your mother in law has douche all of
her life to counter her frequent urinary tract infections, I
(29:21):
think I know why she gets frequent urinary tract infections. Yeah,
I think a single trip to the doctor for a diagnosis,
maybe some antibiotics, get get a nice check up in
a pats near like let's not well, as she notes, though,
you know, she couldn't afford a trip to a Dartnell.
I'm talking about her mother in law. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah,
I'm I'm saying that that that years long cycle of
(29:41):
her mother in law has been experiencing, Like why would
you want to continue experiencing that well, because a lot
as we talked about in the podcast, a lot of
a lot of women don't know because their mother handed
it down to them as the way to keep their
vagina's clean. But as we have set up in on
this podcast, done with a douche, just say no the
douche ladies, why it still exists? I it bobbles my mind? Yeah, um,
(30:06):
but you're not alone though, according to the US Health
and Human Services of Women Ages, I believe still douche.
So break the cycle. Break the cycle, ladies. And Jen's
just just saying them all right. So that's it. If
you have any comments about douching, gold, the mania, or
(30:27):
anything else, uh, send us an email. Mom Stuff Discovery
dot com is our email address. You can also tweet
us at mom Stuff Podcast. You can like us on
Facebook send us a message there. You can follow us
on Tumbler as well. It's stuff Mom Never Told You
dot tumbler dot com. And for a little bit of
video fun, we highly recommend that you head over to
YouTube dot com slash stuff Mom Never Told You, watch
(30:51):
some videos and subscriber for more on this and thousands
of other topics. Doesn't have stuff works dot com
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