Legacy and Fandom Ethics

In the face of increasing violence against the trans community, a new Harry Potter game has become a flashpoint of conversation. Friend of the show and member of the SMNTY fam Joey runs down the history of J.K. Rowling's anti-trans stances, how the fandom is grappling with it (or not), and why it matters.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stephane
Never Told You reflection of iHeartRadio, and today we are
thrilled to be joined by the amazing of the wonderful Joey,
who helps us with TikTok and researching and episodes. Obviously,

(00:27):
so glad to have you here. Thank you. Yeah, I'm
excited to be here. Yes, yes, yes, um, we're very
excited to have you. You know, heads up, probably by
the title, you can tell this is very controversial topic
for sure. Not a sponsor also, I hope obviously, but
you know, not a sponsor. Um, we're gonna be a

(00:48):
fire if they were. Yes, but this is something, uh,
we really wanted to talk about and I had been
intending I had an episode kind of planned about it,
but it was going to be much more of a
like personal I know we're gonna talk about this later,
but kind of a personal take on like grieving and

(01:09):
fandom and what that that looks like. But yes, all
of that said, very excited to talk about this. No,
it's controversial, but come with us on this journey listeners. Joey,
do you want to introduce yourself anything that I missed
that I should have said, um, yeah, hi, I'm Joey

(01:29):
A good I don't think you're really missening. I think
I'm a producer here at iHeart, So I do research
for Smith you from time to time, and I also
run the TikTok. So you guys should all go follow
that if you haven't already. M yeah, yes, yes, yes, yes.

(01:49):
You have been such a good sport because we just
essentially send you very random long clips and are like
maybe this or really that, you have to go on
and make it with amazing like any crying, it's fine everything. Yeah,
I didn't get to do that. I don't know the

(02:11):
only when there's a little Valentine'sday when I did so
far with the So it's fun. It's fun. Definitely giving
me an excuse to like spend a lot more time
on TikTok too, which is you know, positives and negatives
to that. But it depends, well, there is a lot

(02:38):
of ground to cover with this. So can you let's
get into can you tell us what we're talking about today? Yeah?
So quick, just trigger warning off the top. I'm going
to be getting into a lot of like transphobic violence,
both like interpersonally and on a state level, some brief
discussion of sexual assault, nothing too explicit, the just transphobia,

(03:01):
the big thing. Yeah, I'm going to talk about the
whole ongoing I guess controversy regarding the Harry Potter franchise
as a whole, but particularly this video game that came
out recently. And yeah, as Annie had kind of mentioned,

(03:22):
also getting into like talking about fandom and what you
do when this sort of thing happens, and how to
kind of ethically or you know, somewhat ethically interact with
this kind of media and yeah, yeah, yeah, and I
I think we're gonna have some personal stuff throughout, but

(03:44):
I'll just say, like at the top, this is a
very We've talked about this several times because not this specifically,
but like, you know, everything has its problematic issues, and
everybody I always say, like people can do a lot
of mental gymnastics, and I guess what I'm saying ultimately

(04:06):
is there's no like ones set, one thing fits all,
prescriptive thing. And I know that a lot of her
has been done by this, so just to acknowledge that,
but oh yeah, sure, I don't know, it's just kind
of like it's a complicated issue. I mean, and we're

(04:27):
gonna get into like I don't think there's like there's
not really a right answer, which is the frustrating part.
And again, like you'll see what I go through a
lot of the background. It was really first frustrating writing
this whole thing because it's like it really is a
lot of like back and forth between like a lot
of this really violent, terrible things that are happening to
trans people and then talking about like nostalgic culture and

(04:50):
pop culture and how that affects people, which also is important,
but you know, like it again, it's it gets really complicated,
and I don't want to deny the experiences of anybody
or like kind of yeah, like there's a lot of
layers to this as we're going to get into. Yes, yes, um,

(05:10):
well let's get into it. Can you give us kind
of overview of what has been happening, what has brought
us to where we are today? So yeah, this this
whole I'm going to keep using the word controversy. I
don't know how to feel about the word, but anyways,
this whole controversy started around twenty seventeen twenty eighteen, when
fans of the Harry Potter series and noticed that JK.

(05:33):
Rowling had liked a number of tweets attacking the trans
rights movement, particularly tweets attacking trans women. Apparently at the
time she said this was a mistake, but I mean again, like,
we'll see where this is going. And then December twenty
nineteen it really started. JK. Rowling had tweeted her support
for a woman who had been fired from the Center

(05:53):
for Global Development in the UK for her transpopic comments,
and despite responses from LGBTQ plus activists and allies, Rowling
refused to back down from her stance. And then twenty twenty,
things really starting to spiral funnier for everybody in tune,
Rowling and tweeted something, Honestly, I'm just gonna say I

(06:17):
thought it was a pretty childish response to an article
that came out that was titled opinion creating a more
equal post COVID nineteen world for people who men Straight.
Rowling was upset over the use of the phrase people
who men straight rather than women. The article in particular
was pointing to how you know, women on binary, people

(06:37):
transpend people who men stright have been unfair like particularly
affected by the COVID nineteen pandemic and kind of a
lot of the dangerous consequences of this taboo on menstrual health,
which I think is a pretty you know, I think
that's a thing we should be talking about. I think, yeah,
like I haven't read the article, but I'm sure it
was you know, pretty well put together. But yeah, Rowling,

(06:59):
instead of you know, promoting that kind of thing, just
decided to take issue with the phrase people who went straight,
which I think it's important to remember because when we
talk about this, we talk about like turfs that all
love like transphobic arguments in particular, I think it's important
to remember they usually end up hurting CIS women too
and end up promoting patriarchy and like weird kind of

(07:19):
ways where it's like yeah, like again, this was an
article that was talking about a real issue that was
affecting a lot of CIS women and trans people and
not women too, but like, yeah, I don't know. And
then also just really quick note, I think like the
word TURF has made its way into the mainstream kind

(07:39):
of along with like the you know the fact that
the trans rights movement has gone a lot more attention.
TURF stands for trans exclusive radical feminist. I think it's
kind of become a catchall for like transphobe, but yeah,
it particularly is talking about a brand of transphobia that
like disguises itself as feminism, usually pretty like light feminism,

(08:01):
you know, generally exclusionary feminism. But also yeah, I think
and when we talk about the harm that like turfism
in particular has caused, it's important to remember that it's
like in disguises itself as feminism, and that's part of
where a lot of the harm comes in. Yeah, So
back to Rowling. Following those tweets Deck Rowling, in twenty twenty, JK.

(08:21):
Rowling had posted an article on her blog detailing her
transphobic views, making a lot of really terrible comments I'm
not going to get into because I don't think there's
many benefit and sort of just parenting those ideas. But yeah,
she at the time, again kind of going back to
this whole like turf thing, she takes a very like
liberal quote unquote stand like it's a very like well,

(08:44):
it's because I support women and because like she does
at one point say like I support trans people who
are victims of assault and like all the in violence,
So all that I just think that, like, and then
gets into like basically being like, here, I don't know.
It's it's a very like weird argument where sort of
like I support trans people except for the fact that
I don't. But yeah, I think at the time, like

(09:06):
she was using a lot of like fake niceties to
be like, I'm still progressive, I just don't think these
people should exist in public, yeah, and saying that like
trans women were basically just men and all this like
other terrible stuff. Yeah, this article is kind of a
turning point. A bunch of factors in the series ended
up speaking out against her, Daniel Radcliffe, Emma Watson, like

(09:26):
notably we're both, you know, the leads of those movies.
So I think it was interesting a lot of the
younger generation, particularly we're speaking out against her. Other celebrities
were speaking in support, which was not fun. And also
at this point, the Fantastic Beast movies were still coming out,
which for spinoffs from the original Harry Potter franchise. I
think she had actually written the screenplay for those. Eddie

(09:50):
Redmain was the lead of those, and he made like
a really vague statement basically being like I support trans people.
He literally like became super famous because he's played a
trans woman in the Danish Girl, So like, I don't know,
it was that was definitely a weird about it too,
where he was sort of like like a lot of
people pointed out this is especially when we talk about

(10:11):
like sis actors playing trans characters. This is a reason
why people are so critical. It is because a lot
of time it was like great, like this guy gained
so much fame from playing a trans woman and then
refuses to like actually make a statement in supportive trans people,
refuses to remove himself from the series that is benefiting

(10:31):
this person. Yeah, anyways, frustrating. Yeah, there's a lot of
exploitation when it comes to bettering their own careers without
having any sentiment or actual courage to be allies for
things like this. And that's the big problem when it
comes to overall usage of nonrepresentatives for characters that should
be representative. Right, And I bring up this franchise in particular,

(10:54):
like we're gonna talk about the video game because that's
the most recent thing that's kind of come out of
the Harry Potter franchise, but this was the Fantastic Beast
movies for a while. We're like the main thing that
was coming out from the series that was continuing jk
Rowling sort of like relevance at the time. So then
since twenty twenty jk Rowling is just double down in

(11:14):
her hate comments. She's totally dropped that sort of like
faked nicety, like I support some trans people, and just
like she started also like outright targeting specific activists on
Twitter and sometimes just trans people, like sometimes not even
like activists in particular to literally just be like trans
people trying to live their lives. She's also like used
her platform to speak out against specific legislation, notably this

(11:37):
Scotland's Gender Recognition Act in twenty twenty two, which we're
going to get to because that's all of it. And
then also so this past year in twenty twenty two,
the third Fantastic Beast movie came out, and that movie
ended up flopping and they ended up canceling like any
further movies that would end up coming out. I don't
know if this was like because of I think at

(12:00):
the time I was sort of like, this is great,
Like people are actually responding to the fact that like
Dick Carawling is saying all this terrible stuff and then
not seeing the movie and then this video game made
me like maybe not. There were a lot of other
issues with those movies. I also just like, don't think
they were very good. I don't know. I didn't end
up seeing them, so like, who's to say, But yeah,
that's kind of like where we were at the beginning

(12:20):
of twenty twenty. Sound to the topic of this episode.
Development of the game began in twenty eighteen, so kind

(12:44):
of before this became at least like a widely known issue.
I guess it officially came out last month. Jaki Rowling
wasn't involved in the development of the game, but she
gets royalties from it, which I want to point out
because I've seen a lot of really ridiculous Twitter arguments
of people being like, well, she wasn't directly involved in

(13:06):
the game, so it doesn't matter, and it's like, no,
she's still like royalties, she still makes money from it. Yeah, yeah,
you have to admit, no matter what, she's a smart
businesswoman and she makes sure to copyright the hell out
of this series and makes millions of dollars. And she
even tweeted in response to people who are criticizing her

(13:26):
in her comments that it doesn't matter. I'm still gonna
make money, like literally taunting people. So that's kind of like,
I have very strong opinions. That is not nice, So
I'm gonna leave it at that. But because of things
like that, it's kind of like, no, she knows, she
knows she's gonna make money, and she makes sure to
let you know no matter what you do, she's gonna
stay rich, oh for sure. Yeah. So basically like boycott's

(13:49):
or there were calls to like boycott the game in
the months leading up to it coming out, and that
was the thing that people, yeah kept pointing out was, Yeah,
there was that tweet from her where she was like,
I still make money, so I don't care like I
can say, I can say whatever I want, which is
like part of the problem because yeah, I don't know.
I think it's important for people to remember that because

(14:09):
I've seen again, like I've seen a lot of I'm
a very like online person, so I spent a lot
of time like reading through Twitter arguments and stuff like this,
which is probably not good for my book or whatever,
but like I've seen a lot of people that are
just like so caught up in this whole Like, well,
she wasn't directly involved in creating it. It's like, but

(14:31):
the point is the money. The point is like she's
making money, You're keeping irrelevant. She sees this money as
like I can keep saying all this stuff and there's
no consequences. I don't know. Yeah, So there was a
trans YouTuber named Jesse Earle who had tweeted any support
that Harry Potter franchise current projects while JK Rowling is
in charge of it and using her ongoing platform to

(14:51):
target and also just by her continued targeting of trans
people is harmful to trans people. I think this was
like the end of twenty twenty two, and then jk
Arling like responded to it on Twitter with like a
really nastier response and that sort of again sparked like
a lot of the discourse quote unquote about it, like

(15:12):
leading up to its release. Also just really quick about
this video game, because everybody forgot this really quickly. Back
in like May last year. I remember there was some
article that came out about the like plot of the
video game. So the video game came on to fire
because it was using a lot of like really anti
semitic tropes. A lot of it were from the Harry
Potter series, but they like really really like we're focusing

(15:34):
in on that sort of plot, particularly with like the goblins.
So I mean that's kind of a there's a big
conversation and that people were willing to ignore so much
the original and I'm one of them because I also
really enjoyed. I didn't. I wasn't at the beginning because
I was college years when this was happening when it
first started, but I was towards the middle, and then

(15:55):
as you start looking at it, they're like, oh, you
see that she's actually being racist and anti semitic, and
oh she talks about like enslaved people's and what is happening,
and nothing is really bad about it, Like even the
quip about it is like just taken out and you're like, yeah,
or why are we okay, Like we've ignored it for
so long until she outright said something and then you're

(16:17):
like yeah, yeah, yeah, we really really were blind to
her darkness for really Yeah, And again with the whole
thing about like again like yeah, like a lot of
this was coming from the series, and I was a
kid when these were coming out. I remember like I
don't know how to pick up on this, and I
think a lot of people didn't either. I will say
I do understand the whole like an, it wasn't that

(16:41):
long ago, but it was a little bit of a
different type. So people make mistakes sometimes, Like there's a
whole conversation we had about like we're focusing on the
Goblin stuff, like a lot of that is just from
European mythology being very anti semitic, rather then I think
jk Rowling in particular, although I do also think that
she's gonna be ani semitic. But anyways, like I think
the books came out like twenty years ago, he's also
came about twenty years ago. Whatever. She had time to

(17:02):
be like, oh I made a mistake and whoops, Like
my bad, I will but no, like it's gone to
the point where like again, she wasn't directly making this
video game, but like the company that was making it
was like rather than being like, hey, people have pointed
out that this is kind of like problematic, they're just
using it, and I don't know, I feel like that's

(17:24):
like I'm willing to be like if you made a
mistake twenty years ago and are like I'm sorry, we'll
try and like make the series more inclusive. That's one thing.
If you're still going to continue to like perpetuate that,
I don't know, it's weird. I mean, there's one thing
about accountability and taking responsibility. When when you don't see
that at all, then it doesn't really help the situation.

(17:45):
It definitely garners some more criticism, and it should for sure.
So yeah, leaning up to the video game's release, there
was like a variety of different responses for people. I
guess around January again, Okay, disclaimer real quick, I don't
know how anything about video games. We went over this
before we started recording, but I'm not a big gamer,

(18:09):
so Annie and Samantha feel free you to correct me
any of this. But I guess some users were posting
reviews on Steam, which is a distributor. Yeah, using tags
in the reviews that would make the game less popular,
so like psychological horror, nft W. Apparently capitalism was one

(18:29):
of the tags. I don't know. I just thought that
was funny, and then they also created a transphobia tag
for the game. Unfortunately, this like kind of campaign wasn't
super successful. But I don't know, I think it's a
unble that people were trying to like protest the game,
and you guys have talked about review bombing and how
review bombing can be bad podcasts. But also I don't know,

(18:51):
I feel like sometimes I don't know, it can be complicated,
So I'm not totally mad that people were trying to
do that with this game. A couple of streamers also,
like a couple of really prominent streamers, We're talking about
streaming the game to raise money for a trans charity
organization and then ended up receiving a lot of backlash.
I think a couple of streamers ended up actually doing this,

(19:13):
but Hassan Piker it was one that was like really prominent,
and again, like I don't play video games. I know
who he is, Like he's like he's a pretty prominent
like social media person. He apparently had said that he
was like thinking about streaming it and then was like,
never mind, I'm not going to do it because people
are bulling me online, and I was like all right,
Like I think people were just like maybe that's not

(19:33):
the best way to like I don't know, like if
trans creators are asking people to boycott it, maybe you
should just boycott it instead of streaming it, I don't know,
and then it'll lasted effort to appease critics, The game
added a trans character, which so it's like a side character.

(19:56):
I guess they show up in like one scene. The
character is named Sobrone Ryan, which I guess Sir Rona
is the name of a Celtic god for healing and rebirse,
and that's where the name is from. But yeah, as Samantha,
as you mentioned, um, jk Rowling is a bit infamous
for her like vilely and the nose names for minority characters,

(20:16):
and this was one where people were like, Hm, you're
naming your trans character sir Rona, Like that sounds like sir.
And then Bryan, which is like a male first name. Again,
I don't think jk Rowley wasn't one naming it. I
don't think she would have wanted this character to even
be involved in the game. But um, I don't know.
There are a lot of like really funny tweets of
like rejected names. They were all like very like they're punished. Yeah,

(20:39):
they're punish, but yeah, I mean there's so much, there's
so much to unpack with that, like how that could
just go so wrong? I kind of would have been like,
all right, we get it, you made an effort, but
maybe it's just a better not to just let it.
Just let it be because the people who you are

(20:59):
trying to hate or two are gonna be the most
Like this is more insulting because this is like a
level of lights, such a patronizing attempt to be like,
but here we did something, yay. Is she's still going
to get millions of dollars. Yeah, but there's a character
for you that you're really not going to play here
you go for sure? Yeah, yeah, Like I don't even
think it's a character you can play, like. I think
it literally is like like a bartender come across. So

(21:23):
it's yeah, And I don't know. It was so weird.
It was a really funny day on Twitter. But yeah,
it was. It was weird. It was a weird decision, definitely. Yeah,
So by is this all matters? This is a video game.
Going back to Jesse Earl, who's that YouTuber that Rowling
had publicly harassed on her Twitter, she had told The

(21:46):
Washington Post that buying this game quote keeps Rowling relevant,
and then she went on to say she's equating the
relevancy with people supporting her views, and her views are
directly harmful and attacking and doing damage to the trans community.
Which again, like as I said, part of the reason
that Decay Rowland keeps doing this is because so far,
we use the audience, have shown her that there's not

(22:07):
going to be any like financial harm to her doing
to continue like saying these kind of things and you know,
harassing trans people and really becoming this like spokesperson for
a hate movement. Again, I pointed that tweet from Rolling
where she sort of was like I don't care. I
get my royalty techs and I'm fine, So I don't know.

(22:30):
So yeah, there's the one side of it is it's
keeping her relevant, it's showing her that she can use
her platform to continue spousing hate and normalizing that hate.
But then also it goes a lot deeper than that.
The same Washington Post article stated that in twenty twenty,
Senator James lank Board in the US voted against Senate

(22:51):
consideration of the Equality Act and LGBTQ Plus LGBTQ Civil
Rights Bill, citing a rallying blog post that bill, by
the way, still hasn't I think it passed the House,
but it's kind of in limbo with like the Senate
right now. And then the article also printed to last month,
the British government blocked a Scottish bill that would have

(23:12):
made it easier for people to change their legal gender.
That was that Scottish gender quality bill that Rolling was
really outspoken against. And in her twenty twenty blog article,
she had said that the bill in effect means that
all a man needs to quote become a woman. It's
just that he is one, which isn't accurate. And to

(23:33):
the actual bill. Yeah, and again that that bill last
month was blocked by UK Parliament. I did read one
source that said that the particular legislation they used to
block it, this is the first time they've used that legislation, so,
you know, cool, super fun. And again, yeah, the Equality

(23:53):
Act in the US still hasn't passed, so it's going
back and forth between the US and the UK here.
But it's sort of like the on both. Her rhetoric
is being used to argue against specific legislation that literally
would just make it easier to exist as a transperson.
Neither these legislations get into like healthcare or anything like that.
It literally just makes it easier the Scottish bill in particular,

(24:15):
would have just made it easier to change your name
on official documents and change your gender on official documents.
There's one side here where it's just like, obviously the
rhetoric she's putting out is bad and it is hate
speech leads to violence, and both in her personal and
then on the legislative level, where like again her speech
is being used to just buy bills being shot down

(24:37):
that would make it easier to exists the transperson. None
of this stuff exists in a vacuum. All of it
affects each other. Again, Yeah, hate speech fuels violent crime,
if that's in her personal or on a state level. Well,
I'm going back to what you said earlier. I think
part of the real damage is too that she for
a long time was able to present herself as a feminist,

(24:57):
and so she was like on this other side of
you know, people would write articles like she described Donald
Trump as bolder morn or like you know, had all
this stuff, and so now you're seeing like these really
extreme conservatives use what she's saying but being like, but
remember you liked her so much, Like that's part of

(25:19):
the the damage of a terfism or like yeah, yeah,
I think that's that's what scares me because like when
we talk about transphobia coming from like the really fat right,
it's easy to just be like, Okay, well they're like
really conservative, Like I don't know, like I'm not going
to take obviously it is also serious and has like
serious impacts on people's like perception of trans people. But

(25:39):
it's like, yeah, I'm expecting it to come from like
a Tucker Carlson type person or like even that senitor
that I mentioned in the in the article who is Republican,
Like it's there are going to be the people who
are going to expect to say this kind of stuff.
When it's somebody like jk Rowling, it's like who, by
the way, I just want to say it, Like she
calls herself a feminist. I don't know about Like I
have a big believer and you need you need to

(26:00):
actually practice feminism. You can't just say her a feminist
and I don't know, Like I remember when when the
back last spring, when when the stuff about like Roe
versus Wade was coming out and they were like with
the Supreme Court. One thing that I saw that it
was interesting with somebody who was like, hey, take her all.
It is one of those people that keeps saying she's
a feminist and she sports like women's autonomy and and

(26:21):
not harming women's bodies and all this stuff, but then
she's completely silent on this issue that is like affecting
a lot of women and not women too. But like,
maybe this isn't about feminism, Maybe this is just about hate.
And there's a million other examples you can find in
like pretty much any turf argument of how it's just
like it is patriarchy under the facade of feminism and

(26:45):
women's rights. And I really would like encourage people to
like look deeper into a lot of those arguments and
how they specifically end up harming CIS women as well
as trans folks. Yeah, it's as a whole mess. And
I think another thing that has to be said about
where she was pre quotes and tweets, I guess is

(27:07):
that she really worked as if she was an ally
to the queer community, talking about like you know, oh,
yeah Dumbledore is definitely gay and all these things, and yeah,
absolutely Hermione could have been a black woman, what are
you talking about? And she gained the trust of so
many young people who for so long felt like they

(27:28):
were alone and isolated. And the reason and I'll never
We're going to talk a little more, but like the
reason they loved the Harry Potter series, it was a
light in this darkness because they saw as an outcast,
you can be special like less the message all kids
want to hear. But then to hear her go on
to say yeah, and I'm an ally for the queer
people and they definitely were part of the Wizarding World,

(27:49):
which we all wished was a real thing. Maybe it is,
I don't know, but it was a real thing, and
felt so so much love for the series and fell
in love with a series which we've talked about previously
about what happens when you really love the characters that
out there, that you have created, even for yourself, a
different world, and you put yourself in this world, and

(28:09):
then have her come and slash it, literally murder the
hopes and love and dreams of these kids who grew
up and maybe even found themselves a little bit through
her series. The betrayal of that in itself is so dangerous,
and we have come back to from being like Alli
and giving hope and giving someone and out and lights

(28:30):
to darkness of like, yeah, oh my god, she hates
me or she hates people like me. Everything that she
has said is falling apart, and she's celebrating it. She's
celebrating it by using her influence in society, in politics
and policy. She's using it as a way of gaining
more attention through the news media and all the media,

(28:52):
and then also teaching those parents who have already been
against the kids to once againe double down. And then
when we come to see a game that celebrates it's that.
But there's no way we can I mean, no, you
really can't. Even when people tell me they buy it,
or they did they're thinking of buying it, the first
thing they say is I know, I know she's bad.
So when that's the first statement that comes out of

(29:13):
your mouth, you know there's no way to separate this
for sure. Yeah, And that's what makes it complicated, I think.
And again, like I grew up with the series and
like it was my favorite books and I was a kid,
I definitely like have a lot of like really good
memories attached to it. I totally understand that aspect and
also like amas but involved in like the fandom today

(29:36):
so like I got thought too, but um yeah again
it just really good. A couple of stats too about
the state of trans rates as of right now, this
is gonna be focusing on the US just because it
shows based in the US. I don't know as much
about UK politics, although I've heard it's kind of a
show from friends that are there. But yeah, again, like well,

(29:58):
actually one thing really quick with the UK, so the
and again going back to the whole like people buying
the game and being like I know, like I know,
which's terrible. I know't the weekend this video game came out,
there was a sixteen year old trans girl that was
murdered in the UK. Does that murder have anything directly
to do with the video game? No, I don't think, like,
but at the same time, it's like this is a

(30:21):
lot of people on Twitter and on social media we're
pointing out kind of the sort of this weird feeling
of like you have this, you have all these discussions
about this video game, and like can you support playing
this video game or buying this video game or like
all of that are still like being a fan of
the series, but then the reality of the situation is
like this sort of hate speech the jk Rowling is
championing is what ends up getting people killed, is what

(30:44):
ends up like literally, like a sixteen year old girl
was killed because of the kind of hate speech that
jk Rowling has turned into her entire brand at this point.
According to a twenty twenty report from every Town for
Guns Safety in the US, the number of trans people
we've been murdered doubled between twenty seventeen and twenty twenty one.
So yeah, it's and again, it's not just k Rowling.

(31:06):
There's a lot of like people across the political spectrum
that I think, like have responsibility for this rise in
hate of trans people. But she is a very provident
spokesperson here a lot of the people of use so
we're like moral panic when talking about this, I would agree,
like I think we're in the middle of like a
full blown moral panic around queer people in particular, on

(31:28):
LGBTQ plus people in general, but like particularly trans people
and particularly trans women. I think, yeah, again, like it's
affecting everybody, it's affecting all trans people, but I think
trans women are sort of just like that's the main
group that jk Rowling's targeting that has been the main
group targeted in a lot of like grooming groomer like
stuff that's going around and all that. But yeah, as

(31:51):
of right now, the ACLU is tracking three hundred and
seventy one anti LGBTQ plus bills throughout the US. A
number of them particularly target trans people and trans kids. Literally,
like in the Times, I began putting together like research
for this episode, Tennessee passa bill the band drag performances

(32:11):
from public spaces or locations where they could be viewed
by a minor. And if you look at the bill,
the language that they use is super vague. I would
argue that's on purpose, And a lot of activists are
worried that like this kind of combined with the sort
of like transphobic view that like trans women are just
men in drag or vice versa, this bill could be

(32:31):
used to criminalize like trans people simply existing in public
or in spaces around children that are private. It's again,
it's it's not just public at this point now, it's
also private because it is like it could be a
private entertainment menu. It could literally be like your home
if you have kids, or like you know, ore had
children and your family unit. Yeah, and this isn't like

(32:52):
the only bill like thought that's going around. Tennessee also
passed a bill limiting, not limiting banning genderperving care for
trans kids in Tennessee, which, again really quick I think
says people get confused when we talk about like gender
affirming care for kids in particular, because I just assume
that it means like physical transition. That doesn't necessarily mean that,

(33:14):
like sometimes it can mean like puberity blockers, which aren't permanent.
And I'm also not a doctor, so nobody like take
my particular word for this. But sometimes that literally just
means like being able to like acknowledge that your kid
doesn't identify as the gender they've been assigned, which like
usually just means like letting them change how like their

(33:37):
hair looks, or how they dress, or like how they
want to be addressed in public, none of them. Like
if people people get so caught up and they're like, oh,
it's not reversible, Like I don't know about Like I'm
somebody who's changed the names that I've gone by, and
like that's reversible, Like that is really easy to change.
I have short hair, I can grow it out really easily.

(33:58):
Or cut it again, and I changed my outfits every day.
I don't know about you, guys. I thought that was
a pretty normal thing, but I don't know. Yeah, so
it's frustrating. We are living at like a really scary
time to be a trans person, to be a queer person,
but particularly to be trans person. Like yeah, and both
like legislatively on a state level, and also just like, yeah,

(34:20):
there are more and more trans people that are being murdered,
particularly trans women. Yeah, it's it's a mess. Yeah, but

(34:41):
let's talk about a video game. So yeah, the game
is doing well, which is unfortunate. And again, like the
frustrating thing, like Samanthony said, like as soon as everybody
breaks up, it's like, I know, like there really is there.
Most people know there's a pretty much strong argument against
getting it or against supporting any sort of like Harry

(35:04):
Potter franchise content, and yet people still do. And as
much as I want to be like everybody, look at
all of the facts, all this terrible stuff that's happening,
how this connects to hate speech, how it's connects to
this particular woman's platform. Let's stop, like, let's just like
pretend that this doesn't exist, that's not going to happen,
Like if it would have happened, it would have happened.

(35:25):
At this point, I'd rather just focus on like the
reality of the situation than like what I'd want in
an ideal world. So yeah, I think this does kind
of get the question. I'm also like, I don't want
to like vilify anybody that has gotten the game or
anybody that does continue to like enjoy this kind of content.
I will say the people like I keep saying on
Twitter that are like making these really elaborate excuses of
like here's why I particularly should be allowed to enjoy

(35:48):
the game or how I should Like that's dumb, Like
I don't know, that's another story. I will argue with
you about that, but whatever. I mean. At the same time,
like I get it again, Like I have no interest
in buying the video game. I don't think people should
buy the video game, but I do get being attached
to this universe, Like, yeah, I grew up with it.
I was a huge fan when I was a kid.
I have been somewhat involved with like the fandom stuff

(36:09):
on TikTok, and actually I have like a lot of
really close friends that are really involved with like TikTok,
like cosplay content and fan fiction and all that, and
like I get being attached to this series. And also
again because it's so popular like worldwide, there's a lot
of people that are just like casual fans and like
grew up with reading it or like you know, are
going to get it for their kids because it's like

(36:29):
a staple now sort of childhood like reading these books.
So it's hard. There's not like there's not an easy answer,
which is the fresh training part of all of this. Yeah,
I mean just the things, Like I obviously have very
strong opinions when it comes to morality issues. The biggest

(36:50):
thing to me is like, you know, just admit it.
It's fine, Like we get it. It's hard. Like the
game is set up beautifully. I have seen YouTube videos
previews of it and be like, people are so excited
because this is your Tiffany, so you can tell me
if I'm wrong. But the design of it is unique,
and the way they really created this world apparently is

(37:11):
really pretty and beautiful. The way you can play it
is newer, kind of like people's love for Elden Ring.
I'm sorry for those who think I'm being awful. For
compare the two, but the graphics of it is different
and has been upgraded over the years. So a lot
of the video gamer people, gamers as we would say,
try to say that's the reason, Like I literally has

(37:34):
say like, oh, they can do this in this world
and that's never been a thing, or you can do
these things on this level, and you know, people love
anything spectacular and new and changing, So whatever they have
created for this game, I get it. I get that
that's an appeal, but yeah, it is really hard not

(37:55):
to see when you see a community hurting, suffer and
being persecuted on such a depth level. Constantly hearing stories
of people being murdered or heard or kicked out, being
threatened to be removed from a family, like being threatened
to be arrested because you do support your family. It's

(38:17):
kind of hard to see. But it's also some of
these same people who would probways say that, but this
world when I was younger really weren't for me and
really helped me see some things. So the complicated place
that they are at it is it is painful because
you have this decision of like how do I grieve

(38:39):
but I don't want to let it go, yeah, and
I just just to know, I don't think you realized
you did this, that you did look at me via
this video call and say this is your turf Annie,
which give very very funny. That's the thing we should do, though,

(39:02):
is we should try to reclaim like to you are,
I just make whatever people share about like, I don't know,
this is your whelm, this is you, this is your
specially who well you have it on videos, we can
play it back. But I was very like, wait a minute,
I know actually you did make a face and I

(39:23):
didn't get it at that point, but yeah, your I
will say too when it comes to like also like
the fandom spaces and like the being your turf to
you are of the kind of thing and somebody like
I've spent a lot of time in online fandom spaces,
and I think in general they tend to be pretty queer.

(39:46):
This may also just be like my bubble, but like,
they tend to be pretty queer bubbles. I've seen the
same with the Harry Potter fandom. Like I think the
like online social media, very like fandom space usually tends
to be very queer, and I think that also makes
it complicated because like it can be frustrating as a
queer person, like feeling stuck and feeling yeah, I'm like

(40:12):
I don't know, like I just I recognize that's that's
that can be particularly frustrating. Is again as somebody else
or who is who's queer and like trans like it's
it's it can be frustrating. It could be really really
really frustrating. Yeah. Because also along with that, I've seen
a lot of like trans masculine people in particular speak

(40:33):
out and be like, well, I'm really attached to this thing,
so I'm just going to continue to sort of like
ignore it and like enjoy this media because it's really
important to me personally. I think it's important to recognize that,
like the majority of the people that are being really
really harmed are trans women. It's going to be transmulin general,
it's going to be queer people in general, but like
it's trans women, Like trans women are going to be
particularly targeted by this, and I think, I don't know,

(40:56):
I guess like I just would ask people to like
use this as a time to likely reflects on like
how do we stand up for one another within the community,
because I have also seen the argument of people again,
Like I've seen a frustrating number of videos of people
being like I'm trans and I'm saying that you can
buy the studio game it doesn't matter, and it's like
usually they're trans masculine people. I don't know. I just

(41:18):
I would encourage people to like really think about who's
being affected, who is being harmed, and just like stand
up for other people in your community. Like, this is
the time when we need to like have each other's backs. Again,
we're in the middle of a full blown oral panic
around trans people. We need to have each other's backs.
Queer sis queer people too, we need to have each
other's backs. You guys are not saying from this either,

(41:39):
like I don't know, it's yeah, I mean, and that's
absolutely when it comes down to it. When it's attacking
any type of marginalized community in general, it comes down
onto all of us. And obviously women are a part,
not necessarily of the overall marginalized, but they are marginalized.
You are not a sisman, so therefore you or do
not have the power, So yes, this will come down

(42:02):
onto you, which we've seen it is. It goes hand
in hand. When they go for one, they go for all,
and what we're seeing is when we're not banning together,
it allows for the breakdown. And then if we think
one aspect or one injustice is more important than the other,
then you've got a problem because you are not truly
seeing the fact that you're a part of the problem.

(42:23):
And it's really naive to think that you're one issue.
And I'm talking to women in general. It's just like
I'm a woman and trans women are affront to me
because that takes away from my woes and my inability
to get all the rights, which is not true. Then
you are woefully ignorant of the fact that you are

(42:44):
part of the problem. Absolutely, But yeah, I don't know. Again,
I yeah, with the whole kind of conversation about then,
like what do we do with this piece of media now,
like and I'm talking about Harry Potter and general in
any sort of Harry Potter thing, because again it's not
it's not just the video game. The video games like
the most obvious version of like here's this thing that

(43:05):
people can buy that people can give their money too.
But it was also like in all the like arguments
about it, people bring up like the attention economy, which
you got again going back to like the whole dayk
Rowling thing, like she's benefiting from the series being really
popular and benefiting from the attention economy. Like, but also
I don't want to say, like people just can't enjoy
this because I don't know. Again, like I think, I

(43:28):
do think people can enjoy things as long as it's
not like hert make somebody. I don't know, I think
it gets complicated, but like I do think, like I
get the whole like people just wanting to enjoy the
series too, And I mean, I think the sort of
obvious answer is like figuring out a way to like
be involved in fan culture and fan them and not

(43:53):
giving money that's going to go to jk Rowling, like
not buying merch that's directly going to benefit jk Rowling.
There's lots of an independent artists out there. Personally, I'm
a big advocate of fan fiction. I think like fan
fiction is always a good thing if definitely read some
like transversions of characters too, which is fine, um and

(44:15):
all of that. But yeah, I don't know, I don't know.
I would love to hear you guys. We have suggestions.
We had reader we had listeners who sent their own
and some really good uh rewrites of Harry Potter. Should
I would yeah, oh my gosh. Um. Uh So originally

(44:38):
this was you did a much better job than what
I was gonna do. I was literally just going to
have a conversation about grieving and what happens because for me,
like I you know, I graduated high school when the
seventh book came out, I graduated college from the seventh
movie came out. It was there on like my darkest times.
I loved it. I liked travel to lond the idea,

(45:00):
the whole I was like, like I said, fan doesn't
describe it. And it was such a big part of
my identity. And that's the danger. Because I've talked before
on here, I use fiction to cope with trauma. Um,
and it's very important to me when you let something
get that close and then it hurts you so bad,

(45:24):
and that's normal. Like I mean, I do this fare
but I think plenty, like it's a pretty common thing.
I'm like, that's the thing I keep trying to bring up,
Like I don't plan people for being fans of the series.
There's a lot of there's a lot of good stuff
in it, and like yeah, and people do use this
sort of stuff to cope with trauma. Again, I've seen it,
Like I've read a lot of fan fiction, so I
know a lot of people use like fan fiction and

(45:45):
the sort of stuff to also deal with like their
identities as like queer people and as trains people and um.
And that's impacted me a lot too, Like that's definitely
like I don't know, I get that side of it.
And that's why I'm like, I never would fault anybody
for being attached a series because again, now it's on
the hypocrite, but also like media affects us and we
can't always you know, none of us can predict where

(46:08):
these authors are going to go with their lives, unfortunately.
But yeah, well that's kind of the interesting thing because
I was like, you know, there's a lot of what
about is them that happens in this argument where they're like,
well you'd like that though, right, And that's problematic too,
And I'm like, yeah, but JK. Rowling is like the
heart of this, Like I can't I can't even read
fan fiction anymore, Like I can't not think of this

(46:31):
when I consume any of the media, and like I'm
not saying I'm like holier than that at all, because
it was like twenty twenty. I knew she was probably
meant before them, but that was when I was like, Okay,
I can't, I can't do this anymore. And like we said,
I'm a huge It's true. There's so many like personal
experiences and mental gymnastics and all of these things that

(46:51):
go into consuming a thing. And so I also, you know,
I have friends that have got the game, and I
don't fallow them, but for me, it's become like I
literally shut down when people bring it up because it
was so important to me and it hurt me so bad.
And so many listeners have written and I'm like all
kinds of the whole spectrum of this over the years
and now, like I think of what the stories they've sensed,

(47:14):
and it's just it's upsite, Like I guess what I'm saying.
It's like I get I get all sides of this,
and I also get if, like you're really hurting and grieving,
because that's kind of where I am, right, Oh for sure, Yeah, yeah,
I think that's that's the thing. It's like, You're not
the only one I've known people in my age group,
it's gonna say generational, like, I'm not doing this to

(47:35):
myself who use that too? Like literally, we're so traumatized
by family, by love, by abuse that held onto that world.
And I keep saying that as a world because it
is it was something that was created to keep them safe,

(47:57):
and then they created it as a bigger part of
themselves so they be who they were and who they are.
And then we look at the fact that she destroyed it.
She destroyed it, I think for those people, for all
of us because I liked it. I liked it. I'm
a casual person. Don't get me wrong. Now. I you
would watch Harry Potter the first one, especially as a

(48:18):
Christmas movie, like I liked it. I was not a diehard.
I that is not my escapism. But I as even
almost like the social work side of watching people being
able to really have a coping mechanism in a healthy way,
even though I'm like, oh, you're really really in this
imaginary world. But it's also good for you because it

(48:39):
is doing so much for you. And then to have
that go for a flip, it's such a disruption. It
takes the wind out of everything. It takes your breath
almost of the jarring turnaround of what it was. And yeah,
I again, I have a lot of opinions, and I
don't want to it sounds very critical. I sound very critical,

(49:02):
and I hate to be that way. When I'm like
this game, you don't have an excuse. But the fact
that the matter is that this goes hand in hand,
and it is it has been tainted, this, this reality,
this fiction, this conversation, something that was so pure at
one point in time, what we thought has been really
tainted and we can't not see why, so affecting everyone

(49:28):
her whole conversation. She had garnered so many right wing
people under her support group that it's overwhelming. The same
people she was tweeting against and yelling at in twenty
seventeen suddenly flipped and have become a part of her team.
And then we see women who have forever tried to

(49:49):
villainize trans women. It's being feeling justified because here's an
icon saying exactly what they've been saying for so years,
and now they have someone to justify that. And then,
also knowing that she's successful, there was no cancel culture
for her. She tried to pretend like there was there wasn't.
And then we also see that people like you Joey

(50:10):
and people like you Annie, who have so much emotion
and so much pain from people saying like, I'm sorry,
but I still want to be a part of it,
not because they're doing something against you, but they're definitely
not supporting you. Like that's if you're If you're not
doing something that is to be an ally, that means
you're not supporting them. I mean, that's kind of how

(50:30):
it turns out to be. And it's harsh and it's cruel.
And I say that to myself as well. I know
that hearing you as the people in my life that
I care about to do something that is going against
the community who are hurting because of this community, that
means I'm going against the support. I'm not supporting you
like I said I would. And that's the conversation and

(50:52):
things that you have to think about. And in this
it's just a game. I get it. It's just a game,
but it's also people's lives. It's also people hearts in
all of this, right, And that's one of the things
I think this episode I want to do because one
of the things I also keep saying is like a
lot of people that I think our allies and their
heart and our supporters, but just haven't like connected the

(51:13):
dots exactly between like they know, like O. Jk. Rowling's
really transphobic, but they haven't like totally realized, like no,
here's how the specific things that she's saying are affecting
people's lives, are affecting legislation are affecting like the general
kind of conversation that we are having about trans people
and about trans women in particular. And I think I understand,

(51:38):
Like that's it is a hard sort of thing to
really connect because it is a lot of like, yeah,
it is a lot of also just like how do hate?
How do these like cultures of hate happen? But it's there,
and this is like what I want to do is
sort of like connect those dots for people and again
also like remain sympathetic. I do understand, and yeah, again
like totally understanding it to the series. I'm not saying

(52:01):
people should just throw there. There was I had like
a bit like a TikTok break talked about this and
somebody like commented and was like I'm throwing away my
books right now, and I was like, no, you don't
have to do that, Like that doesn't do anything what
you think it does. This is an important conversation to

(52:33):
keep having, and it is a conversation that we do
keep happening because they're just keep There's been a Harry
Potter content that's been coming out like more or less
consistently for the past couple of years. There was a
Team Folk article I saw that kind of got into
the same thing that I came out a year ago
because of the twentieth anniversary special that was on HBO
Max that I had totally forgotten about it, but there

(52:54):
was again I remember like there was a whole conversation
around that too, um and people being like yeah, like
the same sort of conversation about like nostalgia and being
attached to the series, but then also like recognizing like
people's lives aren't being put in danger or like literally
physically armed or guilt and like that is also something
that is important to remember. Yeah. I don't think that

(53:14):
there's not an easy answer, and that is that's frustrating
about all this, but it is like I think the
best thing people can do is like just continue to
keep having this conversation, continue to keep acknowledging that what JK.
Rowling is doing is harmful, and beyond that too, like
continue to stay informed again, Like there's all of these
bills in the US right now that are targeting trans
people and queer people. Pay attention to that. Like, I'm

(53:37):
sure wherever you are listening to this, there's something in
your state right now that he's either past or is
like in consideration right now, Like, look into that. Pay
attention to what's happening. If you want to be an allay,
be an ally, that's more important than whether you're going
to like burn your boer merch that you bought in
twenty eleven, Like, I don't know. I like I still

(53:58):
have like a griffindor blank that I bought when I
was eleven that I'm like, I'm going to keep this
because I like it, and yeah, like me throwing it away,
it's not going to affection, okay. Rawlings like annual income right, yeah, exactly,
and just the annual income I I was looking this
up apparently for the standard apparently for a writer's royalties

(54:21):
is fifteen percent. So when the book sales happened, I
think as of twenty twenty two, she made one point
one five billion dollars, So we know she was a
savvy businesswoman, especially when it came down to the movies.
Likelihood of her making that much money off of this
game alone, it's pretty high. And because she is a

(54:44):
supporter of anti trans bills, the likelihood that she's giving
money to that very high. So oh and she has, Yeah,
she's definitely given so as a reminder that money does
go specifically against trans people. Yeah, happy days. Yeah. And
this is also where with this when we're talking about money,

(55:06):
like independent rich shops exists and didn't like we love
buy book second hand? Yes, I know, like streaming is
the norm now, so it's sort of hard to do
the whole like buy your DVD second hand, but like
I don't know, like there's other options. Does eBay still
do that? The second hand buying? What did that used
to be? I know, y'all, y'all are not old enough

(55:29):
in collod books and I think it was pre Amazon
and it was eBay and then it became Amazon. Oh
my god, I'm dating myself. I'm still talking yea, Oh
my god, Oh wow, my jello and put myself to
bed early. I mean wow, I mean that sounds nice. Yeah,

(55:54):
it is. It's like I feel like we could come
back and do a revisit because it is so complicated.
Because there's also a part of me that like, I
hate that she's done this because it's the movies weren't
made in a vacuum. Like sure, if some people agree
with her, but there was a lot of people who
didn't and who have come out against it. So I
hate that that's happening. And then I I would love

(56:16):
to bring someone else who knows more about this than me.
But there's been a lot of articles about what's going
on with trans women, specifically in the UK. It's not
it's still it's bad, but it's not quite the same
as what's going on in the US, so that is
a larger conversation to be had as well. Yeah, Like, again,
I don't know as much about UK like politics and culture.

(56:37):
I spent my entire life in the US. But at
least from what I've heard, it's like it doesn't I've
definitely like seen articles when I pointed too, like jk
Rowling in particular, in her attitude towards this, like it
doesn't come that also doesn't come out of a vacuum,
like that is very much reflective of how like the
culture around trans people and around career people is in
the UK. But again, I'm not an expertal of this.

(56:58):
While like I don't know, but yeah, above to hear
somebody's thoughts, who who knows more on this, because yeah,
and it's scary. It's it's a scary world to live in.
I do try to be an optimist against my better judgment. Um,
so like I am hopeful that I don't know, I
do the fact that we're having this conversation at least
like to me is like people are talking about it.

(57:20):
It's not like this is just something that's happening and
like nobody really cares, like there are there wasn't there
was an effort to boycott and it wasn't particularly successful,
but like it was there, and I have seen a
lot of people like sharing information about it and and
sharing information about like a lot of these like anti
trans and anti career bills that are going around, and
that gives me hope. I don't know. Again, it's everything's

(57:45):
about right now, Like, yeah, I don't know. I feel
like that's the overall Yeah, okay, job, Yeah, I mean
it is. I think like that's a good a good
takeaways to stay informed because I think a lot more

(58:06):
people know now at the very least where they they
didn't before, that this is something we should be talking
about or paying attention to. Oh yeah, and I want
to clarify, like I said before, like I want to
say realistic and just be like I do recognize that
I think at this point, like we can't just be like,
here's all these bad things and this is why everybody
should just forget the series exists and like make Jaker rawling,
like I don't think that's gonna work. But also the

(58:27):
fact that I don't think that's gonna work, I don't
think like it hasn't worked at this point, that doesn't
mean that like there aren't things that we can do
with that are going to like at least be like
harm reduction, you know, like, yeah, we shouldn't keep talking
about this. We should keep talking about all this stuff
that's happening, because that's always going to be better than
just ignoring it. And yeah, or like even if like
maybe a mass white cot isn't going to work, that
does not mean that you should just like give your

(58:49):
money to the corporations they're going to go directly rack
to Chaker rawling like you should or like whatever franchise
was what I am on the side of, Like, I
think if people enjoy the series, I under stand that,
and I respect people's ability to, like you consume the
media that works for you, but also have some responsibility
and think about how your actions and where you're putting

(59:11):
your money are affecting other people and are affecting the
queer community and the trans community. Um, and like what
are some alternatives that. Yeah, I think everybody should just
read fan fiction and everything will be fine. Yeah, yet
doub Joey, don't tell people. Yeah, I know you afections

(59:36):
like Luke Skywalkers of particular for it of like, so
you're gonna send me these right, I'm outing her. You
really did experiments to see like what gets more clicks.
It's been fun, I was what I was putting together.
This is because I think the one like internet fandom
thing that I had some I don't have a huge

(59:58):
chicks Doc account, but I have friends that are big
on like Harry Potter TikTok and like Marauder's TikTok in particular.
And this is like the point where I was like, oh,
my god, somebody's gonna find my TikTok through list Like,
somebody's gonna like I've set myself up, Oh my god,
like because there's gonna be some video that I was
in that my friend Typo that's gonna lead my account
and somebody's like, you're criticizing JK Rowling and yeah, you

(01:00:19):
make I don't know. That's the that's the worry. That's
the concern people find people find, Oh my god, especially
when you get out in which I guess that brings
us to wrap up, Joey. Thanks is always for coming on.

(01:00:41):
I know there was even more stuff we could talk about.
So come back any anytime, um to revisit this or
anything else where. Can the good listeners find you for sure? Yeah,
you guys can find me on Twitter or Instagram at
Pat not Pratt. That is Pat t which is my
last name, and then not an ot and then pr Att,

(01:01:03):
which is not my last name. I have mentioned my TikTok.
I will not be telling you guys my TikTok, but
if you can find it, good for you. But you
should follow the stuff Mom never told you tiktoka. Yes
I do that too, Yes you are we always love
having you on here, so thanks for coming. Thanks for

(01:01:25):
all this work on such a sensitive topic. I know
this is emotionally taxing. Yeah, and it's a lot, it's
a lot going on. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
If you would like to find us listeners, you can
or emails Stefania mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You
can find us on Twitter, Mom Stuff Podcast, or Instagram
and TikTok at stuff Mom Never Told You, also on

(01:01:46):
YouTube now. Thanks as always to our super producer Christina,
Thank you, Christina. Thanks again to Joey who helps with
TikTok and research and this episode, and thanks to you
for listening Stuff on Ever Toldy's direction of iHeartRadio more podcast.
In my Heart Radio, you can check out the Hurt
Radio app pop a podcast wherever you listen to your
favorite shows. H