Libido Liberation

Women's sex drives and expression shift in response to a wide range of factors. So when libido dips, why are we so quick to pathologize it? Cristen and Caroline talk with filmmaker Maria Finitzo about her latest project, a look into female desire and women having agency over their own bodies.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to stuff Mom Never told You from how Stuff
Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm
Caroline and I'm Kristen, and today we are talking about
Lady Libido very stereotypically, something that almost doesn't exist, or

(00:25):
it's policed um, or it's not good enough um. Basically,
Lady Libido gets kind of the short end of the stick.
A lot of the time. Lady Libido sounds like an
actual character like Lady Look, I shouldn't be I feel
like she would be wearing sweats. Okay, Honestly, I'm just

(00:45):
imagining a Kathy comic. Lady Libido is just like ac
I'm so, I'm so tired, don't make me try on
to swimsuit. But I picture her more like Okay, maybe
it's Kathy, but she's in an evening gown with like
a cigarette it in a long cigarette holder, and she's
making eyes. Garfield, I am a psychologist, will probably have

(01:07):
a field day with like our You're much more glamorous
perception of Lady Libido. Yes, it is more comfortable or
uncomfortable for all of the mentally of the pressure. Yes,
everything physically. Lady Libido needs a vacation. Partly because there's

(01:28):
been medicalized pressure put on her, I'd say most recently
with the uh flaban serin or better known by its
brand name perhaps now Addie. Yeah, um, and I can't.
I literally when you said that, my mind went blank
because in my head when I read the actual what

(01:49):
would you call it, the generic name for Addie, Yes,
the actual medicine's name, it starts with the letters F L,
I B, And so my brain immediately goes fliberty bit
because I don't have the patients to sound that word
out for myself. Apparently, what kind of is flibberty gibbet?
Because it's constantly described and hailed as the so called

(02:11):
women's viagra, But it's not that at all. No, it's literally, yeah,
it doesn't. It's not functioning on the same parts of
the brain, body, whatever as viagra does in men. It's
almost like an antidepressant in that you have to take
it every day, and rather than um, impacting your blood

(02:32):
flow to your genitals as viagra does, it more impacts
the blood flow around your brain. Yeah. So it's in
there tinkering with all of your neurotransmitters, doing things with
your dope amine and such. Well, and it makes sense
because a lot of our libido happens in our brain
totally totally, I mean like literally in our brains because

(02:56):
of those chemicals, but also just there's that mental emotional
connection that if you're not if you're not feeling it,
then you might not be feeling it. Wink. Well. So
there's there's all of these parts of your gray matter
that are involved in getting aroused, having a sex drive,
wanting to get intimate. Um. And a couple of them

(03:18):
include the amygdala, which I feel like is a sminty
all star. Yeah. The amygdala is uh, such a wily
little nugget of our brain because it's responsible for our
rage but also our raging passion. Okay, so when I
flipped tables over, that's my amygdala. When you flip tables
over on the way to the bedroom, your amygdala is

(03:41):
just going wild. Your lady libido, she's lit her cigarette
actually lit too, she's got the whole back in her mouth,
and she's ready to get down of business. Um. Not
again to go off on a tangent, but again, amigdala,
my brain, my brain, it is over the word a magdala,
and sometimes it pronounces itself in my head as a magdala.

(04:05):
So then I think of Queen Amadola. So then I
pronounced it as as queen Queen amygdala. So we've got
Lady Libido and Queen Amygdala. I like this. I like
this cast of characters. Um, and I would like to
quickly note about Lady Libido smoking habit that we are
in no way endorsing cigarettes. No, not at all. Smoking

(04:28):
is bad and i'm actually bad for your libido. Yeah,
it's bad for your libido, it's bad for your brain,
your stamina, and also it just makes your breath smell
and and that's not a turn off. No, no, But
if we look back at the sexy gray matter and
revisit queen amygdala for for a moment, researchers think that

(04:48):
the size of your queen amygdala maybe in proportion to
your sex drive. So the bigger you're a magdala, the
more sexy you feel. I mean, that's what it sounds like,
which gives us a whole new like sexual comparison. That's

(05:08):
it's there, but it's just not visible. Yeah, forget about
how how big your hands are, Donald Trump, Let's talk
about your amygdala. Actually, let's not. Next up, we have
the hypothalamus, because this produces that post pleasure dopamine, which
is critical not only for all of those good feelings,

(05:29):
but also the motivation, do you know, get off the couch,
throw over some tables of your caroline and in my
evening down. Yes, And once I'm in my evening gown,
I should also be concerned about my pituitary gland because
this secretes a hormone which stimulates my ovaries to produce estrogen.

(05:51):
But the thing is it also produces prolactin, which is
that quote unquote mothering hormone which typically UH increases during
pregnancy and breastfeeding, and that actually lowers libido well, and
the prolactin is often uh considered the culprit in what
we often kind of in like a binary way, consider
like women's inability to just have unattached sex because we

(06:16):
get that prolactin if we have an orgasm that makes
us want to bond rather than just get out held
out to my college self. Okay, anyway, speaking of age though, um,
there was this study that finds that as your fertility declines,
your sex drive actually ramps up, possibly so that you'll

(06:38):
take advantage of those waning days of baby making, so
like how are you packing all? Um? But I mean
there's also those like mental emotional factors too, of as
you get older, perhaps you're less stressed about those issues
of contraception or conception in general, perhaps you're more likely
to be in a secure relationship and more likely to

(06:59):
have better body image. But the interesting flip side of
that of being in a secure, attached, long term relationship
is that more recently, researchers, including Daniel Bergner, who made
waves a couple of years ago with his book What
Do Women Want? Which has nothing to do with mel Gibson, Uh,
he found that this whole long standing narrative that we

(07:21):
have in our society about society about women being turned on,
particularly by stability and emotional intimacy and monogamy, uh, is
actually maybe not entirely accurate. That he actually found that
women show a lust drop off between years one and
four of their relationship that doesn't take much time at all.

(07:43):
Sure does not. But I mean, the the idea that
monogamy is lust killer is not news. No, no, no, no.
I think I think it has more to do with
the gender aspect of it being of the idea that
monogamy is like such a woman thing and not a
man and thing, and that women are then turned on
by that security. It's like, well, no, let's embrace the

(08:06):
idea that we're all different, regardless of gender identity in
terms of what turns us on. I'm down for that totally.
Let's talk about medication though, because this is something that
I have a feeling A lot of listeners can identify with.
Whether you are on birth control, which can absolutely influence
your libido, antidepressants and anti anxiety anti seizure medications will

(08:32):
also play a role in that. Pretty much anything that
might influence your levels of hormones and or brain chemistry,
it might affect your libido in either way, though, you know,
some might make you a little randier and some might
make you a little less. Randy. Who's randy by the way,
Randy Newman? Oh God, suddenly I'm playing the piano all

(08:56):
the time? Well, you have Randy Newman on the piano
while Lady Libida in her evening gown and Queen Queen
Amygdala's like, what in the world can I get a
drink around here? Someone? And then there's something that I
had not thought of or read about before, which is
that antihistamines can supposedly have a more physical effect when

(09:18):
it comes to libido in terms of drying out mucous membranes.
I had never I had never considered that before, So
a doctor might recommend trying non drug allergy therapies or
second generation anti histmins like zero tech or Cleroton. Yeah,
my neurologist um told me to quote pop a freaking

(09:40):
zertech every morning during the spring because I get super
bad migraines related to weather and especially when the seasons
are changing. And apparently taking an antihitamine like Zerotech is
supposed to help my brain parts but not my lady parts. Apparently. Well, no,
zero tech is better than that's right. Yeah, that's that's

(10:01):
a good recommendation from your doctor. And by the way,
this episode is not brought to you by Zyrtech, Clarton
or Kathy and really not surprisingly, actual physical health conditions
can have a real effect on your libido, things like hypothyroidism, depression, hypertension,

(10:22):
and undiagnosed diabetes, not to mention issues like vaginismus or
volvidenia where you're feeling actual pain in your volva and vagina. Oh,
also not to mention things like polycystic ovarian syndrome and endometriosis.
So essentially, we we have just a laundry list of
things that can shape our libido really from day to day,

(10:45):
week to week, year to year. And it's funny to
me that we're still having these back and forth conversations
about gender, gender identity, uh, sexuality, and libido that like,
men are the sexy ones and women are just completely frigid.
Because back in the day it was pretty much an
open and shut case that women were hyper sexualized. So

(11:09):
Alyssa Goldstein wrote about this in depth over at Alternate
in starting in ancient Greece, like you do, um where
from from that point to the early nineteenth century, Yeah,
the prevailing idea was that women are the sex craze ones.

(11:29):
So in Greek mythology, for instance, Zeus and Harrah argue
about whether men or women enjoy sex more. Oh my god,
we're still doing the same thing. We are all Zeus
and HERA hashtag? Is that a hashtag? Let's make it one? Um? Yeah,
So apparently Harrah had turned this prophet terse Us into
a woman. At some point. I missed that myth or

(11:52):
I don't remember it. Uh. And so she's like, hey,
I can settle this. Let's ask Tyreseus. He's been both Uh.
He seems like a would want to ask. And Tyreseus
apparently tells these gods, if sexual pleasure were divided into
ten parts, only one part would go to the man
and nine parts to the woman. And wasn't it when

(12:13):
when did Hippocrates come into the situation where he thought
that like semen was making up women's hair, women had
like long, lustrous, sexy hair because it was filled with semen.
So there's all these weird ideas about sexuality, sex, beauty,
sexiness and hair and hair, so much hair. But of

(12:35):
course with Christianity we have sort of the the negative
side of that. The Jezebels women were temptresses who, thanks
to Eve, thanks no thanks, inherited this kind of sexual
treachery because of course she's seduced Adam in the biblical

(12:56):
creation myth um too, that apple so to speak, that
Granny Smith Smith apple so to speak, and the way
that Goldstein breaks it down in once we get into
Christian dominated societies, that sexual passion that women supposedly had
contributed to their position of being morally and intellectually basically

(13:21):
inferior to men, and that was the motivation for keeping
them on a tight leash, because men, you know, they're
powerful and they're not as consumed by lust as those
sex crazed women are, and so thanks to their better
self control when it comes to sex and sexuality and libido,
they are definitely better suited to positions of power. And

(13:41):
I do think it's interesting and important to note that
Puritans also did believe that women had to higher sex
drive and that abstaining from sex would be a challenge
for women, and all sexual desire to them was normal.
I mean, as long as it was between a man
and a woman who were married before god, you know,

(14:03):
nobody else. So sex drive is like totally normal and
healthy as long as you're a man and a woman
who were married. And it's great to go back and
read Goldstein's chronicling of these attitudes towards sex drive. For instance,
in the seventeenth century, this guy, Franciscus plazonis figured like, hey,
childbirth is pretty awful, pretty painful, and it sure would

(14:25):
not be worth it for women if sex wasn't like
totally awesome for them. They clearly have a higher sex drive.
It clearly feels better for them, and that's still a
question that scientists are looking into. As as for why
female orgasms even exist is the great Well, sure, but
it's like, does that incentivize us even doing it because

(14:49):
it could result in us nine months later having to
go through the painful act of childbirth? M interesting, if
only we could text polozonis um. And in the nineteenth
century you have Austrian gynecologist Enoch Hinrich Kitsch who said
that the sexual impulse is so powerful and women that
at certain periods of life, it's primitive force dominates her

(15:10):
whole nature. Man, women were totally sex crazed. Well, and
I wonder if some of this relates to an episode
we did a while back, um when Sandra Fluke was
in a bunch of headlines because she was the one
who was advocating for a birth control to be included

(15:30):
in the Affordable Healthcare Act, and of course Regel Limbaugh
called her a slut and alleged that birth control turns
women into sex crazed monsters. Um. So, as we were
exploring the relationship in an episode a while back on
UH birth control and promiscuity and how women's sexuality has

(15:55):
been perceived. We discovered that pretty much is soon as
churches became established and we're sort of the community centers
where if you were an unwed mother, where they would
be your support system in terms of like feeding you

(16:16):
and clothing you. And if you became too much of
a financial burden, you know, that's not cool for the church.
So they wanted to de incentivize premarital sex. So you
start to get all of these slight shaming myths um
to discourage women from having sex. Thanks church, um. And
it's interesting, no, that we see a hard turn around

(16:37):
the same time that Enoch the gynecologist is like, oh,
women are just dominated by their sex drives. You've got
people like Herman Felling who were saying that it's a
totally false idea that women have a sex drive that's
just as strong as a man's and that actually quote
the sexual side in the love of a young girl

(16:58):
is pathological. So that's that's great. Thanks a lot. And
a couple years later in Bernhard Winshield, It's not Windshield
Mr Winshield. Mr Winshield says that women normal women, particularly
he says, higher social class ladies, they don't have a

(17:20):
an inborn sexual instinct, and if they do, it's an abnormality.
And he says, since women do not know this instinct
before marriage dot dot dot, they don't miss it when
they have no occasion in life to learn it. Oh
my god, so many great like sexist and classiest things
wrapped up in that, because he specifically calls out the

(17:42):
normal women of higher social classes that have no sex drive.
That's the norm. Yeah, frigid white ladies. Sure. Uh. And
what shifted those assumptions, as historian Nancy cott Um has explained,
was the rise of evangelical Protestantism in New England. So

(18:06):
this ties back to what I was saying about the
churches and slut shamming and de incentivizing, you know, women
exploring their libidos, their lady libidos, letting them go for
a walk about um and elevating this ideal woman who

(18:26):
is not, you know, attempting Jezebel, but rather she is
the moral center of the home right exactly. And that
goes back to what we said earlier about oh well,
you know, men were assumed to have less of that
lusty sex drive, so they were more rational and could
hold those positions of power. So it was almost like

(18:47):
women who were involved in evangelical Protestantism, they welcomed this
shift because it perhaps would allow them to be on
a more equal standing with men in their church in
terms of morality and responsibility. But of course the trade
off being that if you are accepting, uh, you know,

(19:07):
a better reputation, you know, to gloss over a bunch
of stuff or for lack of a better word, um
based on morality and lack of sex drive and being
completely sexless, then you lose the ability to talk about
sex or or be a sexual being because suddenly that's

(19:28):
really really frowned upon. Well, and like you said earlier,
so much of this is wrapped up in racism and classism,
with you know, the most moral and elevated woman in
society necessarily being white and middle or upper class. Yeah,
I mean women of color were hyper sexualized. Working class

(19:51):
women were also totally exempt from any of these assumptions.
And we're therefore, in parallel, in tandem, thought to be
more out of control, more una able to exercise power
or intellect or morality. I mean, all of these things
are definitely tied up with each other, all of that racism,
all about sexism and classism, and of course by putting
women on this false pedestal, or some women, we should say,

(20:15):
putting putting a middle class white women on a false
pedestal meant that if they transgress, the fall was all
that farther. Yeah. And what's an interesting point that Goldstein
makes in terms of men versus women in the libido
realm is that once sexless, frigid morality was associated with women, uh,

(20:38):
men were free quote unquote to be lustier, but it
was more that if they were lusty, it wasn't frowned
upon because they're the ones in power. They're the norm, right,
white men in power, Like that's the norm that sets
the tone. And so if they are sexual beings with
a larger sexual appetite, it's like, oh, well, that's okay

(21:00):
because it's in their nature. It's the whole like boys
will be boys mentality. Yeah, And that's where that starts
to come in. And of course that kind of mentality
gets men off the hook for any kind of uh
sexual misbehavior or outright violations of consent i e um,

(21:22):
reinforcing rape culture because the idea is that men can't
control their impulses, Like the script has been completely flipped
to where men are the ones who can't control their impulses. Thus, women,
as the more modest and moral members of society, should
be the gatekeepers not only of their own sexuality but

(21:43):
also of men's, which brings us up to same song
millionth verse that we're still unfortunately singing today. Totally. It's
just like it's a full loop de loop. I mean,
it wasn't until second wave feminism basically that we started
to have this conversation of like, hello, women like to
have sex too, and not just with men, and not

(22:05):
just penis and vagina sex, but with all sorts of people,
with all sorts of junk in their pants, Like we
we have sexuality and sex drive too. And it's so
I wanted to make sure that we broke that background,
that historical background down to show that like, wait, we're
just having to try to work our way back up

(22:26):
to a vision of sexuality as being a human thing,
not just a man thing that women aren't supposed to have. Yeah,
I mean, and the whole thing also is very binary,
and there is one single standard for sex drive and libido,
which is um this rather false idea that you know,
all men, all people with penises have like the exact

(22:50):
same raging sex drive all the time, which does a
disservice to those folks too. And so, I mean, I
feel like when we still see these questions about you know,
who has a bigger sex drive men or women, like,
I feel like even asking those questions is completely missing
the point, because what are we trying to achieve? What

(23:10):
race are we competing in? Yeah, and so I think
that the faster and Sminty is on the on the case,
the faster we can normalize sexuality and sex drive and
sex period, like, that's great. And then the faster that
we can normalize the idea that different people, not men
or women, different people have different sex drives, needs, wants, likes,

(23:33):
Oh gosh, the better that'll be for everyone, because we're
still seeing those divisions in terms of dating, relationships, hook
up culture, whatever it is, with women still feeling like
they need to be the ones asked out, men still
feeling like they should be the ones doing the asking.
But even when you do have women who say like

(23:55):
I want to take charge, like why should I not
take charge of my dating life and ask someone out.
Of course, what I'm saying is very binary and head
or normative. Um, why should I not ask someone out
or ask for the sex that I want? Well, studies
have shown that those women, even if they're being confident
and happy in themselves, they are still perceived by men

(24:16):
more negatively or to be more promiscuous or things like that. Well,
and that drives with this University of Michigan study that
came out in twleven, which found that when women feel
like they are not going to be stigmatized for expressing
a desire to have casual sex, then the gender differences

(24:37):
in how we pursue that are minimized. Yes, and I
mean I think that that when you when you think
starting out that you're gonna be sludge shamed, do you
think that's going to have an effect on your libido,
like you can't be free to be you and me? Well?
Daniel Bergner, author of What Do Women Want? Adventures in

(24:59):
the Side It's a female desire, certainly think so. I
mean his book went viral. Can a book go viral?
That's like? I think? Yeah, a book like has talked
about a lot and sells copies. Hopefully, or people just
read a lot of online commentary about it. Yeah, people
were definitely talking about Daniel Bergner a lot. And you know,

(25:21):
we mentioned Burgner earlier talking about monogamy that it's not
just like, oh, this is monogamy with just a man.
Isn't the only thing that hashtag all women want? There's
more to it than that. And he also says that
through his studies, through his analysis of other research, women
are definitely turned on by their partners desire for them.

(25:42):
And basically the significance of that is that it's also
important to look at if we're talking about how one
thing in terms of sexuality is not better than another thing,
just different that for some people desire comes first and
for others arousal comes first. That just depending on who
you are and not even necessarily your gender. I don't
know how many times we can hammer that home. Uh,

(26:05):
you get turned on in a different order. Imagine that.
And so when we're operating from the perspective of heteronormative
penis and vagina man and woman sex where there's like
a little bit of foreplay and then you're at it
and both of you are supposedly turned on immediately, it's

(26:26):
just a thought of sex like, Okay, so there's different
formulations for how people get turned on an approach satisfying sex.
But it's because I think we do have so many
of those heteronormative attitudes around libido that a lot of
women end up feeling like something is wrong with them,
whether that's chemically, whether that's physically. And so there has

(26:50):
been ever since we got viagraa in the nineties, there
really has been this huge push to get some type
of equivalent medicine, medication, medical answer for women. And that's
not to say that there aren't legitimate uh disorders or
dysfunctions when it comes to women's sex drives or libida

(27:11):
or how their body parts operate, but researchers over at
the Harvard Medical School we're basically arguing that was it
really the need that prompted the development of pills like
Addie or was it another Did it serve as another
like really ripe pharmaceutical target female desire? Yeah, I mean

(27:35):
I feel like we've been pathologizing female sexual desire ever
since of female sexual dysfunction or f s D was
named as an actual like disease in just as erectile
dysfunction had been in the nineteen nineties, and in fact,

(27:56):
uh hypoactive sexual desire disorder was taken out of the
d s M in has now been replaced with female
sexual interest and arousal disorder UM. And for some women
that's absolutely the case, like that disorder does exist, but
a lot of people have scrutinized the how how pervasive.

(28:23):
Some folks think that it must be because it's like, Okay,
are there actually like neurochemical physiological issues going on? Or
are we not understanding of how our bodies work? Are
we not understanding of um? You know how many people
with vaginas do not reach an orgasm through solely through penetration? Um?

(28:47):
Do we not know how to sexually communicate? And on
and on and on? Do we not accept what you've
been saying over and over again that sexuality and sexual
expression in libido, like gender, is a spectrum. Yes, yes,
And so in that Harvard article we read, they wrote,
a woman's sexual responsiveness is not the same as a man's,

(29:08):
and ignoring its complexity can make difference look like dysfunction.
And I bolded and to tell size that in my notes,
because I do think that's important to note for all
of us that we have different sexualities and sexual desires
and different things that turn us on. And while it's
good to have addie or or medicine or treatments like

(29:31):
it to address issues of UM sex drive or sexual
functioning UM, I think it things like communication, for instance,
are important because I know and like maybe t M I,
but I know that my sex life is better when
my boyfriend and I are openly communicating about what we like,
what we want, and what feels good, and when we're
open to the possibilities of trying different things well. And

(29:54):
it reminds me of uh, you know, treatment for general
anxiety disorder where you can absolutely take medication, but medication
will not cure it. That's where cognitive behavioral therapy comes in,
and you know, the kind of the arduous work of
practicing new strategies and behaviors. And I think that sometimes

(30:17):
we forget about, like taking a similar approach to our
sexuality where you might be in a situation your body
might need your a medication to work some things out,
but starting from a more behavioral therapy approach and really
eliminating all of those other factors that we talked about
the top of the podcast that could be contributing to

(30:37):
things such as picos or vaginice nous, all of the
myriad factors that influence our Our Lady Libidos as we've
been referring to her, UM is so important. Yeah. And
so actually, Kristen and I have a special guest for you.

(30:58):
UM it's Lady Nito. Come on down. UM. We actually
spoke with filmmaker Maria fanitso about issues of sexuality and
libido and sex drive, especially as it applies to women. Um.
And we're going to introduce you to her right after
a quick break. So today we're talking with social issue

(31:30):
documentary filmmaker Maria Finitzo, who's working on her next project,
The Dilemma of Desire, about women's sex drive. And I
was really excited to talk to her because as part
of her project, she's interviewing not only everyday women about
their sex drives and attitudes about their sex drives, but
she's also talking to sim Smithy All Stars. So she

(31:54):
talks to Sophia Wallace, who is the artist who made
Claracy How Happen. She's super cool, um, and she made
a giant gold clarist that you should google. Image if
you don't know what I'm talking about. And she also
speaks with Lisa Diamond, who we've cited a number of
times on the podcast. She is a psychology and gender

(32:17):
studies professor at the University of Utah who has published
a whole lot of studies on sexual fluidity. Um. And
also she speaks with Erica Lust, who is an erotic
film director. I bet Erica Lust knows Lady Libido and
Queen Amygdala. But but Randy Newman urry still out Still yeah,

(32:40):
not so much talking about libidos rand human impression. It's
so perfect. Um. Yeah, So I asked, I asked fanitsa
what inspired this project? And coincidentally or not so coincidentally,
it makes perfect sense. She was actually inspired by the
work of Daniel Bergner and his theories on monogamy and

(33:02):
women's sex drives. She told me that, you know, she's
in her sixties, she's got a daughter in her mid twenties,
and she told me that she's always been really interested
in women figuring out their sex drives and having agency
over them, and so she wanted with this film to
look into what is female desire and beyond that, how

(33:24):
do women exercise agency when it comes to sex and sexuality,
And so we're gonna talk about women's sexual expression, what
we are taught or not taught about our bodies, and
how that affects libido, but also what amazing things can
happen when women are free to explore their bodies, their partners,

(33:47):
their sexuality, and their own likes and dislikes. You can
have rewarding sex loves. Okay, get out of there, any newman.
So we kick off for the interview by asking Fanitza
what she uncovered through all of her research and her interviews. So,

(34:11):
what did you find in terms of how the women
you spoke with defined, or viewed or thought about female desire? Well, what,
I've haven't made the film yet, so I'm in the
process of UM trying to get it funded and hopefully
I will. But in my research, what I have found
is that UM women now, young women now are reporting

(34:36):
having a lot of sex, but are reporting not having
very good sex, so it's not pleasurable for them. And
I find that really really interesting. And the other because like,
what are the gains of the women's movement in the sixties,
if not so that our daughters have UM freedom to
be who they are and express themselves sexually in the

(34:57):
way that makes sense for them. Right, But instead of
finding that world that was such a promise in the
sixties now a reality. What I find is that women
feel a lot of pressure to be sexual and yet
are not finding when they are that they're getting much
out of it, meaning pleasurable orgasms. And so that to

(35:19):
me is pretty interesting, and so I wanted to ask why, right,
why in this day and age are is that not happening?
And I think that's where the real um, you know,
that's where the hard questions have to be asked, because
sexual desire doesn't exist in a vacuum. Women are part
of a world, right. We live in a world, and

(35:40):
that world and all of the pressure's culturally, religious, socially
impact on who we are and how we define ourselves
and how we then operate in the world. And so
it's very hard for women today to be able to
be who they are sexually right and express their sexual
desire when the world is telling them all kinds of

(36:00):
things about who they are, how they should behave and
you know whether or not it's right or good to
behave the way they want. Do you feel that there
are still those acceptable and unacceptable ways for women to
express their sexuality and desire? And where are these messages
coming from? Well, in terms of UM acceptable or unacceptable,

(36:24):
that's a pretty UM personal things. So what might be
acceptable for one woman UM and is unacceptable for another? Right,
I think war The question is is that women are
not UM. Women are punished for being sexual today. Right,
So young women, UM, you know, first of all, let's
just look at UM the war that's going on against

(36:47):
women bodies, which is the chipping a way of abortion
rights that has occurred throughout the South twenty three states
now make it almost impossible for a woman to have
an abortion. Okay, they want to say that has to
do with right to life, but really it's a war
against women, and women are being punished for being sexual,
right okay or wanting that's so that's one thing and

(37:08):
the other thing that's happening. And the course as young
women you know that this is part of your life
is um. We live in a culture where UM women
are punished for being sexual and that plays out in
all kinds of ways, including the epidemic of rape on
college campuses. Right. So when I went to college and
I went into a bar. I didn't have to worry

(37:31):
that my drink was going to be drugged, right, and
that someone was going to take me home and rape me.
I didn't have to worry about that. When my daughter
and her friends go into a bar, that's part of
the experience. They all have to keep track of each
other's drinks. We'll think about what that says to you.
I mean, they do that as a matter of course,
but what does what does that indicate that the world

(37:53):
is saying to women you look out, this is dangerous place.
And if you think you can be sexual without any consequences,
we're going to tell you show you you can't. So
I think there's a lot of um pressure on women,
um not not to express their sexual desire, and um
it's playing out in all kinds of different ways. Well,

(38:15):
you quote on your website psychiatrist Mary Jane Shurfe who
asserts that women's quote unquote insatiable sexual appetites have had
to be systematically repressed over years. And so my question
to you is is, how how did this happen? And
in what ways is women's desire or their sexual expression

(38:39):
still suppressed. Well, I think it happens because Um, it's
a question of power, right. And so I'm not you know,
I'm not a historical social scientists. I I'm not an
expert in looking back on how um, women have been
seeing throughout the ages. But certainly they're of the time

(39:00):
when women were either you know, madonna's or whore's and
there was nothing in between. And even within the Catholic Church,
you have the mother, you know, Christ having to have
an immaculate conception. Okay, so that's a little lot, all right,
So she can have had sex, right because we don't
want her to be sexual, which is a natural part

(39:21):
of everyone humanity. Um. And so you have sex as
it relates to women being something that women should be
shamed of. They should not be sexual, they should not
want to have sexual pleasure and that um and and
if women did have agency and complete control over it,
I think that's frightening. That's that that appears to be

(39:45):
frightening to society. And so it's much better for keeping
control of everything is if we tell women that they
don't really have sex drive um, and that if they do,
they're bad girls right there, they're flood shames. So we
all do it, Okay, we all talk about you. We
all roll our eyes when a woman goes out and
decides to have sex with the guy she eats in

(40:05):
the bar and then she goes home the next morning.
Well there's that sort of you know, very stereotypical response,
which is, you know, flut walked back to her apartment.
Well nobody does that for men. Okay, that men just
get to do that, that's part of what they do.
So um women wanting to be um sexual or or

(40:25):
or have you know, expressed express their sexual desire have
a really hard road to go. Okay, They're really hard,
and I think it's gotten worse. So in the sixties
when the Women's Revolution started, you know, it was all
about women have control over their bodies. The birth control
pill came in and so now sex is no longer
tied to worry about whether or not you're going to

(40:46):
get pregnant. Okay, that was huge, and we all thought
that that would change the landscape for women and women's
rights and their freedom and their ability to be in
the world the way they wanted, completely right, But I
don't see that now. I see young women, women in
their twenties, even women in high school having to move

(41:07):
around in a landscape that is dangerous and and worse
than when I was their age, because the the pressure
to be sexual is huge, but the pressure to be
sexual in a way that society tells you you should
be sexual, which is to objectify yourself right for the
pleasure of men, is enormous and it's also very dangerous

(41:29):
women women are not accepted equally as sexual partners. They're
supposed to be there for the poor men, right. That's
still huge in our culture and in our society. And
so I think that's one way that you know, women's
ability to express their sexual desire is repressed. It's it's dangerous. Okay,

(41:52):
you're going to You're going to catch it if this
is the way you operate in the world. Um, And
I think that message is really clear. Do you think
this ties into what people call hook up culture? And
I mean, it seems like for years we've been hearing
about hook up culture being a negative, and so I'm
interested to hear from you, uh in your research and

(42:14):
just in your life if you feel like this so
called hook up culture is a positive or negative when
it comes to women's sexual expression, Well, I think it
has the potential to be a very positive thing. Right,
Women are now um living different lives than many many
years ago, and they have um careers and career goals,

(42:37):
and you know they they're they're really busy in their life.
Is not just about wanting to find someone to marry, right,
And so you know, women who are in professional schools
or who are in med school or law school are
are busy. And so having a relationship when you have
all that else going on is very time consuming. And
so a lot of women say, no, I don't really

(42:58):
want a relationship out. We have heard men say that
for years. Okay, and so I but I do want
to have sex, right, So that's a good thing. However,
when I was doing research for my film, I read
the series that the New York Times did about cook
up culture, and they went and interviewed a number of

(43:19):
women at schools all along the East Coast about it,
and women talking about why they do it and what
they get out of it. But what struck me about
it was that not a single one of the women
they interviewed would give their name. So instead of saying, yeah,
my name is Jane Doe or Sallie Smith, and this

(43:39):
is really this works for me, right, And here's why
it works for me. No, none of the women wanted
to give their name, and so that to me indicates
that there's still fear of being shamed for it, mocked,
or that employers will think less of you because you
are a sexual person. Right, So that kind of morality
that people super impose on women, um is still there.

(44:03):
And so that's where I think, Um, the hook up
culture is somewhat dangerous for women because of the um
you know, because of the way they're judged when they
do it. Okay, So if it we lived in a
perfect world and if women got to behave the way
men did, I think it's great because sometimes you just
don't want a relationship, but you do want sex, and

(44:26):
that that we should have a world where that's possible
for women to have. Right. Complicated, very complicated. It is complicated.
I mean, there's definitely a lot of layers to it
that it seems like we're still working to shrug off
our victorian ancestors a little bit. Um, But even even
they had some interesting attitudes about sex. So, um, so

(44:50):
what would you say is the missing lengthen between what
women want sexually, what they're actually doing, and what they
actually get Is it plain communication? Do women need to
start giving their names and articles about hookup culture for instance?
Does social norms need to change? What needs to change

(45:14):
for women to get what they want sexually? Well? I
think what needs to change is that women have to
be seen as equal partners in the world, and it's
a question of equality. And women have to feel that
they are in a safe place so that they can say, Hi,
my name is Betty Smith, and I really like sex

(45:35):
this way and I like to have it with a
lot of different guys or whatever it is, and women
and you know, whatever it is, and not fear the
consequences of their honesty. And you also, if you are
in a relationship or even if you're not, have to
feel Women have to feel that they are entitled to
their pleasure. Okay, so we know men are entitled to

(45:58):
their pleasure because that's the way we're getting We are
objects of male sexual desire and where we do things
to our bodies and ourselves to make us more desirable
to men. Right then, speaking solely from a heterosexual point
of view, right, So that's really strong in our culture.
So I think a lot of women don't feel like
they have the right to say that doesn't work for me,

(46:20):
how about this way? Right? And I think the other
thing that's missing and and why I'm including the work
of Sophia Wallace and the film is knowledge about female bodies,
both women and men. And so when the organ of
female sexual desire is the guturists is a not spoken
about it very much be misunderstood completely, um and see

(46:44):
missing from some anatomy books. What does that tell you? Right? So,
I think what has to happen is the whole landscape
has to change. It's a question of equality, because until
women are seen as equal, then they won't feel entitled
to say the just my right, I have a right
to have this encounter, the sexual encounter be just as

(47:05):
pleasurable for me as it is for you. And I
think that's I think it would be really great if
we could start a movement where women said, Okay, that's great,
that that's what you want. I'm happy to do it. Now,
here's what I want, right, here's what I want. You
are entitled to say what you want, and here's how
you do it, right. So it's knowledge about your own body. Yeah,

(47:28):
And we should emphasize for listeners that Sophia Wallace is
the artist behind the C Literacy campaign. She created or
helped create a giant claras that you could ride. And
we talked a lot about her in our episode which
we in honor of her work, titled C Literacy. And

(47:50):
I have to tell you, Maria, our listeners minds were blown,
as we're our own about not only how amazing our
bodies are, um but and what they can accomplish, but
how research into women's genitals and gynecological anatomy, how it

(48:14):
just seemed to drop off. It seems like once doctors
realized like, oh, that thing that women have is just
there for pleasure, Like, well, that's ridiculous and we don't
need to study it anymore, That's right. That's right. Is
as if the only important thing about female reproductive about
female anatomy is the reproductive you know, it's reproduct productive capabilities, right,

(48:38):
So not the whole thing, right? So how ridiculous is that? Right? Um?
You know? And I one of the things that I
thought was really interesting about Sophia's work is she went
to the Whitney Museum when they had a huge retrospective
of I think twentieth century art, and she went because
there were no women artists in the retrospective. Pretty interesting,

(49:02):
and yet there are lots of women's bodies in the art, okay.
And she talked about how she when she was there, Um,
you know, they brought she brought her gang of people
running around with um cut out clitteriss and three D
glasses cut in shape of clear issis so that they
could look at the art um the perspective of the cliteress.

(49:22):
And she said she heard one little boy say to
his mother and mommy, what's the clearest Well can you
imagine a young girl, a little girl saying her mother,
mommy was penis? They all know what beanses are, okay,
but why don't young boys know what clarterists are? They should, right,
but nobody nobody says the word. People don't want to
say the word right. So I think it's you know,

(49:45):
we are we are the objects out there in the world.
We're sexualized throughout the world. Our bodies are, right, That's
that's it. And yet the organ a female sexual desire
is mostly in this Moore right. Pretty interesting stuff. Um,

(50:06):
what what were you most surprised to learn from your
interview subjects like Sophia? What what was most surprising to
you in your interviews and research. Well, I I you know,
I I loved what she had figured out, right, I
mean she's in her late twenties, you know, I'm you know,

(50:29):
in my sixties. I've been around a long time. And
yet even I didn't understand sort of the entire size
and scope of the clitter is on my own body. Right,
How how is that possible? Okay? So I had to
learn it from her. And I also, you know, I
was able to sort of learn a lot of things
I hadn't realized, which is, you know, that's sort of

(50:52):
the way the medical field has ignored, um, the fact
that women have clitter istis and on their bodies. Right,
And so think about when you go into surgery and
if met students don't really are aware of the fact
that it's surround the entire outer while the vagina and
is inside and right, well they're cutting away, right, maybe

(51:13):
you need to surgery where you have to have an
incision made and here you are cutting into an organ
that's rich with nerve endings and so all of you know,
her work just brought like just like hit me over
the head with how um how frightened and the world
is for women to have knowledge about their own bodies

(51:33):
and control over them and be proud of them, right,
be proud of them. I mean, men all walk around,
you know, it's really great when a big swing and
women should walk around the same way with their glitters. Okay,
I mean, I know this sounds like really silly, but
that's what we don't. We walk around ashamed of the

(51:55):
fact that we have this incredible organ in our body,
you know. And that's you know, her work to me
is really exciting because she's really um making us all
ask questions about how we all operate in the world,
and we all think we've got it together, and then
we think about our own life and how we sometimes
don't ask for the things we need or even understand
the things we need. So um, and I just I

(52:19):
think that was, you know, and I love the way
she ties it all back to the religious, cultural, and
social issues and pressures that we all live with today. Yeah.
I love that idea of walking around like we have
big swinging because we do. They're just inside us. Basically,
they're just internal. They're the same size, if not larger,

(52:40):
than the penis in terms of erectile tissue. Yeah, absolutely.
I know. I love learning all of that too. I
felt so I felt so weird being a woman in
her thirties learning about that for the first time. And
think about the next think about sex education. Now, we
didn't even talk about the impact that porn is having
on the way women your age, while all women, younger women,

(53:04):
young boys learn about sex, and then the way women
feel they have to behave when they have sex because
the expectation is now because men watch so much porn
that what they want is for you to be the
porn star they've been watching for eight hours a day, right,
So think about how that impacts on a woman, right,

(53:26):
and how she can ask for something when the met
her partner. The men she's having sex with have been
watching you know, videos where women don't ask for anything
unless it's to be have the crappiet out of them, right. Um,
So think about the impact that porn has on sexual encounters. Huge.

(53:46):
What do you think about the emerging arena of so
called feminist porn. Well, that's one of the other people
in my film is Erica Lust. And she's this wonderful
woman who is a feminist, and she's in Barcelona, and
she and her partner have started a company called Lust Films,

(54:07):
and I've watched um the number of films and actually
interviewed her for the Schugle Film Festival when they gave
her an award, and the film, you know, it's porn,
but it's porn um with the perspective that is, if
you know, feminine, meaning the women ask for the things

(54:27):
that they get, and they asked for the pleasure, and
they have some control over how they encounter take those
and they're having fun with each other. And it's not
like it's just vanilla stuff. I mean, they get into
sort of kinky stuff. But the point being is that
the women are the ones who are saying, yeah, this
is great, let's do this, or they're not even if

(54:48):
they're being you know, blindfolded and bound, it's something that
they want, right And UM, I think that's really important
because what's missing in a discourse of pornography, the mainstream pornography,
is the voice of women. Okay. And if you know,
my eleven year old son is going to learn about

(55:09):
sex on the internet, I like him to learn different
things about women than what he's currently learning, right, And
that's where it's dangerous and it's Also, then I don't
want my daughter to think she has to behave the
way porn stars behave in those movies because that's what
the guy she's having sex with gets off on. Right. So, um,

(55:33):
I mean it's a really you know, interesting world we
live in right now. Yeah, And I don't know how
closely you've been following the developments around Addie a k a.
Lady Viagra, but there were a lot of missteps. Um.
One huge one was that it was tested on men

(55:55):
when it's supposed to be a a pill for women
who are experiencing some type of sexual dysfunction. Uh. And
then of course, once uh in testing and once women
started taking it, it wasn't incredibly effective. So from your perspective,
do you think that such a pill is important because

(56:17):
it seems like they're trying to almost do one for one.
You know, men have a pill, women need a pill.
But as we all know, women's libidos and sex drives
and sexuality are not the same necessarily as men. Sometimes
they're greater or sometimes they're less, and sometimes they're just
playing expressed differently. And so do you think the pill

(56:37):
like this is important or do you think that our
focus on improving, boosting, helping women's sexuality should be elsewhere. UM. Well,
I you know I can't. I'm not gonna say that.
I don't think there are women out there who have UM,
a form of sexual dysfunction which is tied to a

(56:59):
medical reason, and because I'm sure that there are. But
I also think that one of the biggest problems women
have and enjoying sex is UM an understanding of their
own body and what feels good, an ability to say
to their partner, this is what I'd like you to
do UM without feeling like they're asking for too much UM.

(57:23):
And and also I think I think that and also
what works for one person doesn't always work for another person.
And so I think one of the things that happens
is that women get bored sexually. Okay, so why are
we not asking questions around why do women get bored? Right? UM?

(57:43):
And I also think women don't feel safe in sexual relationships.
Maybe they're being criticized, maybe they're being mocked, whatever it is,
And so after a while, it gets really hard to
have more gas that's the experience you're having. So I
would rather see UM maybe then go hand in hand
a conversation around what happens to women's libidos that may

(58:06):
have nothing to do with something a pill can fix.
Biographix is a physiological problem, right, it increases blood floats.
That's something that's I'm gonna say, it's easy to fix.
But that's something you can fix. It's not the same
for women. And so one of the things that I've
noticed I've read a lot about this till is that
the improvement is very small for a very small number

(58:28):
of women, so they don't even really know if it works.
So now we're asking women to take a pill that
messes with your brain chemistry that and it maybe it works. Okay. Well,
I think there are other people that might say, you know,
let's look at your life, okay, and what's making your
sex life not so exciting? In some cases, it's because

(58:51):
you've been married for twenty five years to the same guy. Okay,
So that's the question. Does monogamy work for women? Maybe
not right, maybe not so great anymore, because one part
of sectual arousal is the sort of you know, that
thing that happens in the beginning when you're so excited
to be with somebody because it's a little bit dangerous
or a little bit scary or a little bit new. Well,

(59:13):
it's not so new after twenty years, and so, um,
you know, these are all these questions that I think
should be asked and really thought about. Um in addition
to the medical field pursuing whether or not there are
actual pills that might help women, as opposed to just
medicalizing a problem which has nothing to do with medicine

(59:37):
and then trying to make money off of women by
giving them a pill they don't really need, you know.
And I'm sure that there are people who are more
knowledgeable about the medical side of this that would disagree
with me, because it's a hotly debated thing. But um,
so I would just say that I'd like to like,
I'd like the conversation to be broader. Then let's let's

(59:58):
see if we have a pill to fix. And speaking
of conversation, you, with your research and your upcoming documentary
that you're working on, you're clearly opening the door to
that conversation. And so I'm wondering what it's going to
take for us to be able to accept women's sexuality

(01:00:19):
that it exists and to be comfortable discussing everything from
sexual preferences and kink to libido and sexual dysfunction. Well,
I think it's going to have to come. I want
my film to start a conversation, and I want that
conversation to start in grade school, okay, because well, boys

(01:00:41):
are taught about their sexuality, right because it's sort of
visible and it's happening to them. But girls aren't talk
about it at all. Nobody says to them, oh, hey,
you know, by the way, um, you have to sorkin
in your body and if you touch it, it's going
to be a lot of fun. Okay. So sex education
has to include um pleasure, not just this is what

(01:01:05):
happens and so and and and this is a good thing,
not a shameful thing. So it's gonna take um, you know,
changing the way we treat women hundred and eighty degrees right,
So treat them as equal people in the world who
have right to a control their bodies and be have

(01:01:27):
pleasure that their bodies you know, provide, because that's the
way we were made and that there's nothing wrong with
that right, that it is a part of our humanity
and just something that you you have the right to pursue.
And that conversation has to start really young and that's
going to be a big problem. Right. We have a

(01:01:49):
growing religious right in this country which is co opting
the conversation around everything, and it's a scary time. I
just saw a documentary called Trapped about the movement to
um you know, reverse all the gains of rov Wade
and what's happened in the South. I think I mentioned
this earlier, and I was shocked that I was unaware

(01:02:12):
of how much how much ground they had gained in
taking away the right of a woman to choose whether
or not she has a child. And so that's just
part I mean, this conversation has to happen all across
this country or women will lose more and more rights. Right,
So now you still you you you know, when you
go in for an abortion day in some states, they

(01:02:33):
want to make you have a transagtional ultrasound and look
at your fetus. But what is that about? Okay, Like
that's ridiculous. So think about all the things that are
happening to women and women's bodies, and you know the
fact that women want to be able to have pleasure
sexually is just another thing that somebody will tell them

(01:02:55):
is wrong. Right, I'm doing how lesbian women and bisexual
women fit into the research that you've done. UM. Well,
one of the people in my film as a scientist
named Lisa Diamond, and she studies what she calls sexual fluidity,

(01:03:16):
meaning that heterosexual women can have same sex encounters UM
and not be gay, and gay women can decide to
have sexual experiences with menmen, you know, not decide to
come heterosexual. UM. And so I think, UM, I want
to explore the differences um between UM purely someone who's

(01:03:38):
solely heterosexual, although we believe Lisa Diamond all women have
are sexually fluid and so can have encounters, you know,
with women and then that's just part of their embedded
in their sexuality. UM. But one of the things I
found really interesting when I was talking with Lee with
Sophia Wallace was that she was saying, and unless women

(01:04:01):
really understand the clitteris and how it operates and how
it you how you get pleasure from it, then intercourse
simply becomes a way of male masturbation. And I thought
that was a pretty interesting thing to think about, UM,
because you know, a lot of women don't have an

(01:04:22):
orgasm when they have intercourse, and so without understanding your
bodies you're not, it's not gonna be a pleasurable experience. So, UM,
I don't exactly. I'm not really answering your question. I'm
kind of wandering around here. UM. I'm hoping that UM
in the film that that that sort of um, you know,
gay women and bisexual women and their desire is part

(01:04:44):
of the conversation as well, because I think it's relevant
to UM, certainly to women, and I think it's relevant
to men as well. Yeah, and I mean it sounds
kind of from what you're saying, like if women better
understand and accept not only their own anatomy, but also
the possibility and give themselves the room to accept and

(01:05:07):
understand and explore sexual fluidity, it sounds like that can
only benefit their sexual lives, their sexual expression, and their
comfort level with sex. I think that's right. And I
think by by saying that it can only be one way, right,
you limit um yourself exploring who you are and and um,

(01:05:34):
what you're made of and what you're about, because that's
like and that's too bad, right. I don't I think
that that's something that would be too bad, right, So
sex can only be one way? Or if you're heterosexual,
then you don't ever want to have sex with women,
and the same goes from them, right. I think that,
you know, the more restricted we more restrictions we put

(01:05:55):
on ourselves, so less we all benefit right from all
of it they in life that we could benefit from. Right. Um, Well, Maria,
we've we've learned to all the questions I had for you.
Is there anything else, whether it's about your documentary or
about something you've uncovered about women's sexuality in your research

(01:06:15):
that you'd like to drive home to our listeners before
we bring this to a close. Um, I think what
I would like to drive home is something that I
would say two young women, now, whether they're you know,
sixteen years old or twenty six years old, which is this,
you have the right to have this encounter work for

(01:06:37):
you and your body. Isn't there solely for the pleasure
the young boy or the man you're with. That you
have a right to have it be an equal opportunity
of pleasure. And that's just what I want, you know,
the message of my film to come out, because it's
I see a lot of young women who are sexual

(01:06:59):
in ways that do nothing for them, right, They get
nothing out of it, And I'm tranform. So that's what
I would hope my film does well. I think that's
an excellent bit of perspective for our young listeners and
really honestly for listeners of all ages. Yeah, I think

(01:07:19):
we could all use that advice to own our sexuality
and do what feels great for us. And so thank
you so much for taking the time to talk with
me today. I really appreciate it. Oh, my pleasure, my pleasure.
Thank you well. Thank you so much to social issue

(01:07:45):
documentary filmmaker Maria Fanitzo for talking to us about all
of the research who's done and interviews and the work
that she's doing. And I very much look forward to
watching The Dilemma of Desire. Yeah, and if you want
to learn and more about the film as it's being made,
head on over to Film Arts Productions dot com and

(01:08:06):
look up Maria's film. It's called The Dilemma of Desire.
And now, as always, we're curious to hear from you,
dear listeners. What are all of your thoughts about all
of these libido issues. Do you think that they have
been overpathologized and medicalized? Do you think that we just
need to relax and stop even talking about them. Let

(01:08:31):
us know your thoughts. Mom Stuff at how Stuff Works
dot com is our email address. You can tweet us
at Mom's Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook, and we've
got a couple of messages to share with you right now.
I have a letter here from Joseph in response to

(01:08:53):
our Queering Romantic Comedies episode. He says LGBT movies were
hugely significan get to me growing up in a small
southern town in the nineties. They allowed me to import
gay friends and a community in high school. You mentioned
an HIV rom calm, and I think you were referring
to Jeoffrey. Interestingly, this film was written by Paul Rednick,
who also wrote In and Out, which you discussed in detail.

(01:09:16):
I did have one correction. I think you said it
had been a while since you saw Too Wong food.
Thanks her everything, Julie newmar So. Details get understandably foggy,
but in the film, while Chee Chee does have a
flirtation with a local boy, he never has a moment
where he must grapple with Chee Chee's true identity in
an act of benevolence and knowing that they could never

(01:09:37):
really be together, Chee Chee gives Bobby Ray up so
he can be with Bobby Lee, the sweet town girl
who's in love with him. Presumably, Bobby Ray learns the
truth about Chea Cheese identity when the rest of the
town does, but by then he's safely in love with
the blonde ingenue. This arguably takes too long Food out
of the romcom category and into calm Calm. I've always
classified it as a body comedy and a roach it movie.

(01:10:01):
Side note, Joseph, You're so right, and that is a
super important clarification. Also, I'm enjoying just reliving that movie
in my mind anyway, He goes on to say, also,
you mentioned the queer villain in Hayes Code Cinema was
a gay male role and excluded lesbians. But while the
quote unquote cissy villains were certainly much more prevalent, there
were lesbian villains as well, including the titular character in

(01:10:23):
my favorite movie All About Eve. Also very famously, Mrs
Danvers and Rebecca, All About Eve actually features both a
lesbian villain and a quote unquote sissy gay man villain
who team up to takedown Betty Davis. Well, not exactly,
but that's the funniest way to say it. Thanks for
shedding light on interesting and important topics. Here's to the
continuing evolution of the gay romcom, which may or may

(01:10:44):
not end, and heteronormative marriage depending on the viewpoint of
the filmmakers. So thank you, Joseph. And I've got a
letter here from Marin about our episode a while back
on the Prince of Queer Fashion and Marin Rights. I
love the history of fashion, so this was straight up
my alley. Your reference tell the song Yankee Doodle talks
about dandies, and in college I took a class called

(01:11:04):
Vampires and Slavic Culture. Best class ever butw and we
talked about dandies and their influence on vampire literature in
the UK. The song Yankee Doodle was brought up, of course,
and another great mystery of the lyrics, at least to me,
was cleared up. He stuck a feather in his cap
and called it MACARONI was not referencing the delicious posty

(01:11:24):
with cheese, but a group of men in eighteenth century
England who had traveled to Italy and enjoyed dressing outlandishly
and speaking effeminately in the eyes of their English critics
as they were supposedly adopting the Italian vogue, which they
referred to as macaroni. I always look forward to listening
to you ladies every week. Please keep up the awesome

(01:11:46):
work well. Thank you so much, Marin uh And I
wish that I had taken vampires and Slavic culture when
I was in college. I just wish I had macaroni now.
And if you've got letters for us, mom, stuff at
how stuff works dot com is where you can send
them and for links to all of our social media
as well as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts

(01:12:08):
with our sources so you can learn more about the
science of female libido. Head on over to stuff Mom
Never Told You dot com for more on this and
thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff works dot
com