June 10, 2015 • 55 mins
Do women music producers bring something different to the recording studio? Sylvia Massy thinks so. Cristen and Caroline ask the platinum-record-earning producer about her stellar career working with the likes of Prince and Tool and how gender has influenced her life in the control room.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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(00:48):
to stuff Mom never told you from how stuff Works
dot Com. Welcome podcast and I'm Caroline, and listeners, you
and I are both in Core a treat or Caroline
conversation with music producer extraordinary Sylvia Massey, who is also
coming out with a new book That's Right. It was
(01:08):
a treat to talk to Sylvia. She's sort of a
legend in the industry. She's been known for not only
her producing but also her engineering and mixing. She's worked
with an incredible range of artists to everybody from Prince
and Johnny Cash, who will talk about during in the interview,
but also tool and system of a down So she
(01:31):
this is not a folk music producer by any stretch,
but she's received more than twenty five gold and platinum records,
including for her work with the Red Hot Chili Peppers
and even Tom Petty. So there's that incredible range of
artists and Caroline, how did you first learn about Sylvia Um?
(01:52):
I first heard about Sylvia through my boyfriend who is
also a record producer and engineer, and he recommended that
she would be an incredible person to talk to, not
just about the industry, because she certainly is an incredible
resource for people who are interested in the music industry
and being record producers, but also somebody who has a
(02:12):
really great take on gender and what that means for
that role. Well, I would imagine that Sylvia is one
of a select few female record producers and engineers. I
mean it's a pretty male dominated industry within the industry, right, yeah,
for sure. And I did ask her why she thought
(02:34):
that is why there are such a limited number of
women in the role behind the control board, and so
let's let Sylvia explain it for herself. And so, without
further ado, let's hear from Sylvia Masthey. Al Right, well, Sylvia,
welcome to the podcast. And I was wondering if we
(02:55):
could get started just having you introduce yourself to our
listener and tell them a little bit about what you
do for a living. All Right, my name is Sylvia
Massey and I'm a record producer of doing it for
about thirty five years. Um. Uh and uh yeah, I'm
currently living in Ashland, Oregon, UM recently moved here from California. Okay,
(03:22):
so what what brought brought the move on? Oh? A
number of things. Uh. Well it was a divorce and
uh and uh greener pastors. Well, you know, our listeners
are always interested to hear about the avenues that people
took to get where they are. UM. So I wanted
to ask where your interest in music and especially in
(03:44):
tinkering with electronics came from and how you got your start. Okay, Well,
I started basically in college in Chico, California, UM, where
I was a DJ on the college radio station and
(04:05):
learned how to use the recording equipment there and uh,
What I found was that I really loved the music,
but I wasn't sure about the commerciality of of radio
UM and because it's it's really based around commercials and
(04:25):
the music is secondary for most commercial radio as it
was at that time. So I got into the music
side of it and UH. That eventually brought me to
UM uh San Francisco, where I took a job as
a starting position in a studio called Bear West, and
(04:48):
I wound up recording my own band in the late
night hours at Bear West and UM. With doing that,
a couple of people that heard the the recordings said, Hey,
you know, I like what you did with that, Will
you record my band? So I kind of stepped into
(05:10):
the production role right away, where UM I could direct
the musicians UH to UM to get better performances UM
and direct the recording in a certain way UM uh.
(05:32):
So so that was how I started and it just
kind of went from there. I moved from San Francisco
to Los Angeles when I had an opportunity at one
of the bands I had produced in San Francisco, UM
called the Sea Hags UH was was signed by a
(05:55):
big record label. It was Chrysalis Records, UH and and
when that happened, I thought, this is my big opportunity.
I'm going to do a big major label record. But
as it turned out, they got the budget and went
to Los Angeles and worked with a producer named Mike
Klink who had just finished the The Guns and Roses record,
(06:17):
and I couldn't compete with that, and I realized that
I couldn't be in San Francisco and have a career
in recording the way I wanted it. So then I
moved to Los Angeles and I started there. But it
took a while to get going in Los Angeles. When
you first moved to a new place, you have to
(06:39):
uh get a foothold in the in the community there,
the the industry there, um. So it took a couple
of years before before I got the right doors open
to get a starting position in a in a good
studio there, and that was Larraby Sound um and that's
(07:03):
where I started working with Prince and that's where I
um connected with the other people that would lead me
to tool and um Rick Rubin and my other clients
that that really helped me along. Okay, that's that's fascinating.
Did did you along the way do you have any
(07:25):
mentors of note, anybody who's sort of I don't know,
showed you the ropes or or introduced you to new
equipment or new ways of doing things. Well, I have
to say Rick Rubin was a big influence on how
I record. I had been producing for a while before
I started working with Brick, but he has a certain
way of conducting a recording session which is fascinating and inspiring. Um.
(07:53):
I came from the side of recording where I'm the
handling the technical equipment. Uh and actually you know, changing
the equalization on the microphones and setting up and plugging
everything in and but regroupment doesn't do anything like that.
(08:13):
What he does is he takes the the band or
the musicians, and he decides what songs that those musicians
will play, and then he hires the people to to
record it. That would be me uh in some in
some instances, uh. And then he would uh decide where
(08:37):
the recording would take place. So he put all of us,
he put the songs, the band, the recording crew in
a studio somewhere and then he'd say, okay, go And
then he would check in on it every once in
a while to see how we were doing. And the
fascinating thing is his his choices of songs uh came
(08:58):
from the perspective of a true music fan. So UM,
I started doing that type of of uh A production
to where when I come and start with the band,
I asked them for um, for as many songs as
(09:21):
they can give me. Let's say we're we want to
record ten songs. Well, I like them to present sixties
songs to me, and then we're gonna pick the best
ten songs. That's basically how Rick works too. I think
he'll have an artist come up with three hundred songs
before he'll record fifteen songs. You know, other other specific
(09:47):
techniques that Rick taught me to. I just think that
he's a great one of the one of the great producers. Yeah, awesome. UM.
I'm also really interested in sort of the trajectory that
you took. So how does one specifically you go from
mixing and engineering to producing records and then specifically also
(10:11):
in your case, then becoming an author, writer and artist.
So what was that trajectory? Like, well, I think you know,
like I, like I described, I kind of stepped into
production um from the beginning, and it was kind of
(10:32):
a natural thing, because um, I love art and that
would be my first passion. Uh. But um, when when
I'm working working with a musician on their music, it's
their music, it's not my art, it's their art, so
(10:54):
I can detach from it and I and it's easier
for me to not be emotionally involved in in there
in that art because it's their art and I'm helping
them realize it. Uh, my own art. It took maybe
into you know, forty years to realize how I could
(11:17):
do my own art. And that's really where I'm at
right now. Um. I love the illustration. I love painting,
but I have never really spent the time on on
honing that craft because it is very personal and um,
so I'm just learning about that now. And and actually
(11:38):
the project I'm working on now is a book project
for how Leonard, which is a technical music book. Actually
it's about recording, but I get to illustrate it and
write it. And so this is a whole new thing
for me, and I'm really excited about it because, um,
(11:58):
I can really express my self without someone coming in
and saying, you know, well, we haven't gotten to the
editing stage yet, but I think that the illustrations are
going to fly maybe and uh, and it's a fun book.
It's I get to be goofy and I've had some
I have some great stories, and I've talked to other
(12:21):
producers and engineers who also have great recording stories that
I'll be sharing in the book. So it's a different
world now. Yeah. And so this is recording unhinged, right.
The book is called okay, And so so what's the
process like there are I know I read that you
were interviewing other people in the industry for it. So
(12:43):
was there anything that surprised you about this process or
or as you talk to your colleagues in the industry
as you were going along, Um, well, I am surprised
that there's so much of this type of recording going
on that you never hear about the type of things
that I'm talking about. In my personal experience, UM with
(13:05):
recording was that I, Uh, I've done some crazy things
and to get a performance. Uh. One time we took
um an old piano. This was on the tool record
that undertow record. We took an old piano and miked
it up in a studio and uh and got some
(13:29):
sledgehammers and shotguns and shot it, snatched it up and
recorded the whole thing, and then incorporated that into the record.
Another time, I think we dragged some some uh amplifiers
and guitars up onto a cliff overlooking the ocean, and
we set up some microphones and got to the guitars
(13:53):
to feedback and recorded them being tossed off the cliff.
You know. So there's these crazy stories, and I started
writing them all down, and then I started asking other people,
will tell me about your stories, and surprisingly they had
some incredible stories. Uh. Bob Ezren uh recorded Peter Gabriel
(14:15):
and uh to get him to uh really give a
great performance, he wound up duct taping Peter to the wall.
You know. Uh there's other stories where uh the producers
have the singers stand on ladders so that they are
so busy worrying about falling off the ladder they are
(14:37):
not thinking about their voice, you know, so suddenly they
give a much better performance that way. Um, there's all
kinds of fun little stories about that, and um, and
I'm also describing the techniques with illustrations and photographs, so
it's it's a it's a fun process. And so now
(14:58):
my day is I get up, I come down to
the studio and in my office I've got a big
drafting table with the computer monitors, and I decide, let's
see today. Today my drawing will be, um, how to
shoot a piano? And I already know how it's gonna
(15:21):
be laid out and uh and probably hopefully by the
end of the day i'll have I have it illustrated.
But the yeah, I just finished it a very important
illustration called how do Mike a Chicken? I watched that
video on your website. Did you see it? Yeah? Okay, yeah,
Well this is from experience. I have Mike to chicken
(15:44):
and recorded chicken actually a couple different times. So I
thought I would illustrate the proper way of liking a
chicken from my experience because I am an expert at it.
So yeah, I'm having a great deal of fun with this.
And it's also touching a different side of might create
my creative self because I get to illustrate it for
(16:07):
the first time. That's amazing. Yeah, the chicken video with
something else I don't think. Yeah, I don't think I've
ever seen a chicken being recorded for for musical purposes.
But speaking of chickens and tool. You have worked with
a pretty broad range of artists, including, like you said,
(16:27):
Prince System of a Down, Tom Petty, also Johnny Cash,
or have there been any notoriously big personalities that you
worked with any times he might have been nervous or
just sort of felt Um, what's the word star struck
by anybody you've worked with? Anybody took you by surprise? Oh? Well,
(16:49):
I have plenty. You can imagine coming into a studio
with with that Johnny Cash and meeting him for the
first time, and he was it was a wonderful je
nental soul, very tall and imposing and wearing black of course.
And uh, those sessions were really special because it was
(17:09):
Johnny who you like immediately. And uh, and then Tom
Petty and the Heartbreaker just was his backup band, and
I'd worked with them before and they are great people. Um.
Then we had Lindsey Buckingham and Nick Fleetwood sit in
on some sessions, and Marty Stewart, who's a country hero,
(17:31):
and he came and sat in on sessions. And then
holy cow, we had Carl Perkins come in and we
recorded him, and then Johnny's wife, June Carter Cash, came
in and recorded on some tracks, um other visitors. It
was like every day I would turn my head to
see who's in the room because I'm busy at the console,
(17:51):
you know, And I turned my head around to see
who's sitting on the couch, and it was some other
star every day. It was like Anthony Keatis from Red Out,
Pilie Peppers was there one day, and uh, you know,
it's just it went on and on on. So that
was exciting. Every day was exciting working um with those people. Um.
(18:13):
And then there was some very challenging artist Prince for instance.
I could say he's challenging and uh, but so rewarding
working with Prince because I would find myself uh in
this in in a control room with him only is
just Prince and I and he could play every instrument
(18:35):
in the room. So I would just have everything ready
and plugged in and he would reach for a guitar
or he would reach for a keyboard and I would
have it recording and he would play those instruments and
be dancing at the same time. It was incredible. It
was like my own personal show. Uh so uh every
(18:56):
minute was was great there too, but very into dating,
you know. But when you when you realize that they're
just people and they're just being creative, you know, that
kind of wears off after a little while. Um, but yeah,
it's exciting to meet your heroes, and sometimes you don't
ever want to meet your heroes because it turns out
(19:17):
that they're just people. So you know, if you have
this fantasy about them that goes that will go away. Yeah. Well,
as a as an engineer, as a producer, how do
you shift your gears to work with such different people
and such different artists and how do you get them
to sort of do what you hope they'll do or
(19:39):
is it just purely in a thing of like I'm
stepping back and letting them do what they want to do.
We have to approach each project differently. Uh, it's not
every every technique works with everyone. So uh, I have
to be a FA and that's the that's the bottom line,
(20:03):
And this is what I learned from Rick Rubin is
you just have to be a fan of the music.
And there's great music in every genre and if it
moves you emotionally, then uh, then it's really easy to
help that artist, um to do their best. So that's
(20:23):
that's the trick. I think you just have to be
a fan and adapt to whatever situation comes up. Some
artists need a lot of help and some artists need
no help at all. And there they have everything together,
which is some sometimes dangerous too, because they'll come in
and they'll say, I have the ten songs that we
(20:44):
will be recording, and they have it all planned out. Well,
I might listen to those songs and think, wow, jeez,
why are you recording this song? This is this is
uh second tier song. There's better songs than you. I
might say that to them. They may be a fend
it and say, you don't know what you're talking about,
and we're recording these songs. Well, I have to I
(21:05):
have to also, like just understand that that it is there,
it's their music and uh and and accept the fact that, uh,
they know better than I do as far as what
their music is about. But I'll be a fan and
I'll make my own judgments about it and let them
know that's my job. Well, how do you balance that
(21:28):
the sort of different wills and those different strengths um
in terms of the sound you want versus the sound
they want. I mean, obviously they're the artist, but if
you're producing. How do you how do you balance that? Well,
you know, I'll tiptoe into those situations carefully. I will.
(21:49):
If there's any pushback from them, I'll say, look, let's
just record it this way. Just try and try it
and see what it sounds like. You get them to
to do the part arts, uh, and then we'll take
another liston at it. And then perhaps they convinced me
that yeah, I was not right, this is not the
(22:11):
right thing to do. Um, but answer and some sometimes
it turns out that they listened to the parts recorded
and think, hey, actually this does work. So there's an example.
Just the last week, I recorded an artist locally named
Matt Hill and uh, I heard on one of his songs,
(22:36):
I heard a strings, a string section and uh. So
he allowed me to record the strings on my own uh,
and I did a beautiful string section on it. I
thought the arrangement was fantastic, and I sent him a
rough mix of it and he did not like it.
(22:58):
And I was shocked, was like, what you know, this
is fantastic? What are you talking about? Well? Uh, it
was it was the perspective that he took there, which
was correct, that the the strings overwhelmed the song. And
so what we did was we pulled that down the
(23:20):
strings at so that they were just a hint in
the background, in a in a kind of a out
of focus way. Uh and suddenly the strings work and
they worked for me if they worked for him. So
uh So I have to be careful to listen to
the artists and to realize that there they have a
(23:43):
different perspective in it, and that's something to really consider.
It's not my music, you know, but I'll do my
best to really bring out the the the to showcase
this song. And we'll get back to our conversation with
Sylvia Massey just for this quick break. Well, in terms
(24:09):
of the long hours and the hard work that you
put into engineering or producing a record, have you ever
had any trouble getting credit where credits do, whether that
means just not having your hard work recognized or literally
not being credited properly on a record. Well, back when
I started, that was always an issue. I did work
(24:33):
on an Aerosmith track, the song take Me to the
Other Side, and UM, I think I did get a credit,
but not not the type of credit, um that I
should have UM. On. On the other hand, there were
projects like the Prince projects where he makes you bust
(24:56):
your ass, you know, but then he credits you really well.
So I actually got mixing credit co mixing credit on
a on a project that I I uh my, my
contribution was minimal UM, which was great. You know, I
think he's very generous with credits UM. But when you're
(25:19):
starting out those that these are big issues, which are
even more challenging now because it's difficult to even find
credits on anything now. I mean you really have to
search and hope across across your figures that the credits
that you see online are correct. And this is something
(25:44):
else that we're working with working towards UM through NARROWS,
which is the National Academy of Recording Arts and Sciences UH,
is to make sure that the engineers and producers are
credited UM, you know, way that it's easily found and
it's correct. UM. There's an advocacy programs through narra's to
(26:08):
get this done UM. I was on the Steering Commedity
Committee for the Producers and Engineers Wing UH at narra's
for a while and I'm still on the advisory board.
And I think that anyone who's serious about produce production
UH or music and doing their own music recording music
(26:30):
should be a member of Narra's okay, um, but yeah again,
speaking about the hard work that you've put in, you
have earned more than twenty five golden platinum records, and
so I want to know what your what was your
first and how did this end up affecting your career? Oh? Wow, Well,
(26:50):
the golden platinum records are are awarded for sales. So
a platinum record is is a million copies sold? A
gold record is uh five thousand copies sold. So I
think my first gold record was a Prince record, the
(27:15):
Prince song Cream, which was a remix that did very well.
Uh and uh, it was exciting getting that record. It
just came in the mail and I opened it up
and had pictures taken and sent it to my mom. Uh.
So yeah, it's very exciting. Uh. Of course having a
(27:38):
record do well with sales, um is what kick starts
your career. So for me, that was this silly record
called Green Jello. The band changed their name to Green
Jelly after General Foods. I think uh forced them to
(28:01):
change the name. They didn't want to be associated with
a horrible rock band. But it was a joke. It
was kind of a joke record that we did for
fun Um and it sold. It's sold up to a
million copies, I think worldwide, definitely, with a song called
(28:21):
three Little Pigs, and that was the one that really
kicked started my career. It was funny because when I
was in Los Angeles after I made the move and
I finally got a job at Lara B Sound and uh,
I had been working there and and had done a
lot of work with some major artists, Prince included. But
(28:44):
it wasn't until that Green Jello uh started bubbling under
that I realized that this was going to break my
career because, uh, the studio manager, Kevin Mills, came into
the into this control room one day with a Billboard
magazine and he pointed at the Hot one hundred singles
(29:06):
chart and there was three Little Pigs on it, number
twenty four. He says, you you, He said, you don't
understand what this means. And I actually I didn't realize
what that meant. And that what it meant is that
I have a career. I had a career. Um and
so one one hit record and all the producer managers
start calling and here I've been knocking on their door
(29:28):
over and over again, like hey, look, I've got this
body of work and I've worked with prints and blah
blah blah. But it's not until you produced something that's
almost charts, uh, that there everybody wants to represent you.
And suddenly I got to pick the best manager in
Los Angeles. His name was Frank McDonough and mcdonnah represented
(29:51):
me for a good fifteen more than fifteen years from
that moment. Awesome. Yeah, Um well, I was wondering if
any of the bands that you worked with, the artists
that you worked with, ever reacted differently, whether positively or negatively,
to working with a woman. And was there anything also
(30:12):
with other producers or even record label execs that maybe
they acted differently because you were a woman. I think
that when I started out that people would come in
and they might watch their language in front of me,
or you know, like you know, I think that's pretty much. Yet, though,
(30:37):
once they got to know me and realized that I
cursed like a sailor, that they stopped being shy around me. Um. So,
I think that I think it's a difficult job for anyone,
men or women. Uh and uh so I don't I
(30:59):
really have not felt any kind of discrimination in the studio. However,
I am surprised there's not more women doing it. In fact,
there's It's it's dramatic how few women are actually in
the in the industry. Why do you think that there
are so few? I saw one estimate that maybe five
(31:20):
percent of record producers and engineers or women. Why why
do you think that is? I think it's actually less
than that. UM. I have an idea of why that is.
And uh, it has to do with human biology more
than anything. And and it's just because women naturally gravitate
(31:42):
into jobs where they can have social interaction with people.
Uh and uh and and it may be as basic
as that. UM. I wish that there were more women
in the in the industry. And actually I'm uh, I
don't know what happened to me as far as that goes.
(32:06):
I kind of like being in a cave, um by
myself for the most part. And and I just love music,
so um, those natural gravitations didn't apply. UM. But I think, yeah,
most women are too smart. I think most women I
(32:29):
want to um, to be able to interact with people
and to meet people, and and so they have different
career paths. Uh, it takes so long to get started
in in a career in recording, and you have to
really do fourteen hour days for for ten years straight, um,
(32:56):
taking every job, barely getting paid, and and it's just
too long to wait, you know, for most people. Did
you when you were in college, for instance, working at
the radio station, did you know other young women who
were interested in the same things you were. I'm just
wondering if there's some sort of pipeline leak that you know.
(33:16):
Kristen and I talked about on the podcast a lot,
especially in terms of science jobs, technology jobs, things like that.
We always talk about the pipeline of where women and
young girls to start out being super interested in maybe
a science or a technology field, and then as they
get older, they tend to sort of fall out or
fall behind. And have you noticed that in the in
(33:38):
the industry, Urine, there are a lot of people that
a lot of women that are interested and they do
go to school. Uh and they uh, they, But like
I say, it takes so long. I think they get
discouraged after five years of not making any money and
being cooped up in a studio. Uh So yeah, I
(34:02):
I absolutely understand where they go. For me, UM, there
was a leak and that was in San Francisco. There
was a studio called the Automat. And when I first
started out, and when I first moved to San Francisco, UM,
I knew that there were there was recording going on
there and they had all the big acts. It was Santana,
(34:27):
was Jefferson Airplane. They were all recording in this place.
And I'd sit out in the parking lot across the
street with a friend who was a parking lot attended
h and I'd watched the engineers go in and out
of the studio and the during the day, and I
noticed that there were there there were two women that
(34:49):
worked on staff there. One was Maureen Droni and one
was Leslie and Jones, and I knew who they were,
and I'd see them walk in and I knew that
Maureen was recording Santana, and I knew that Lesliean was
doing some other equally UM high profile project. And for me,
so so seeing that, I thought, well, these girls, this
(35:12):
is this is what these this is what women do.
The women go and they take these jobs, their technical jobs,
and uh and certainly if they can do it, I
can do it, So that really inspired me to um
to continue. Leslie and Jones today runs Skywalker Sound of
(35:33):
the studios there in in Marin County outside of San Francisco.
That's George Lucas's place. And UH and Maureen dron E
uh is the head of the Peony Wing for the
National Academy of Recording Arts and Sciences. So she's done
really well, but she's not recording. Uh. Leslian is recording
(35:56):
every day. But it's it's important to have those those
people who inspire you to continue. As far as women go,
you need to have, um, these role models who says
to just to let you know that, yeah, if this
is a direction you want to go in, then absolutely
the it's something that you can do. Yeah, absolutely. Well,
(36:22):
you know you've mentored a fair number of young engineers yourself.
What advice do you have for girls or boys who
are interested in pursuing a career at the control board? Well,
I met with Susan Rodgers recently for the book. She
was an engineer for Prince and all his early work
(36:46):
and some of the greatest recordings that he ever's done. UM,
and she had some very wise advice and that was
if you're getting into recording, diversify and specialize in one
thing or a couple of things that that are are particular.
(37:10):
Like for her, she was a tech she could fix
equipment so as well as well she was a recording engineer,
but she also could fix anything, so there was added
value in having her around. If you're going up against
twenty other people for a job, then you need an edge.
(37:31):
So uh, you know, if you're a programmer, if you
can program music, that's a huge advantage. If you're great
background singer, that's a good advantage. Uh, if you can
in fact create websites, you're going to find that musicians
(37:52):
will want to have you on their team. So you'll
probably get more production gigs that way, or engineering as
that way. Um. So there's a lot of different avenues
you can take that will give you added value, um
when you're competing against a large pool of people. So
(38:13):
that's one thing I thought Susan Rodgers had some great advice.
So with with that, well, what do you tell the
young engineers that you work with, especially if they get
discouraged or if they're you know, starting to wonder if
this is what's right for them or if they're just
looking for sort of a way to continue in the industry,
what do you what do you tell them? Well, that's
(38:35):
that's sometimes difficult. You know. I'll always say, you know,
do just to stick with a stick with it, stick
with it. But at some point, uh, you have to
make these life choices and go in a different direction
if that's if that's truly what you need to do. Honestly,
in the the three or five years, or let's say,
(39:00):
since two thousand when I started my own studio up
here in in northern California, UM, I've only really run
into four engineers that I thought should do this forever.
You know, it takes such dedication and you have to
(39:21):
have such good hearing and understanding of music. There's very
few people that have everything it takes, UM, and I
can I can name them on one hand. You know,
the people that I absolutely trust with any project, and
they're they're the best, UM, because I think that you
(39:42):
need to know more than just engineering. You need to
be able to mix, and mixing is the hardest thing
to do. UH. You have to take everything that you
were recorded and blended at to uh, to to where
you have depth of field and you have dynamics in
(40:04):
the music and you capture the essence of the song
and the artists. Um, and that just seems to be
the hardest thing to do. So uh, there are women
that have come through the studio. One in particular, Lorie Castro,
is an engineer. She works in Los Angeles now and
(40:26):
she took a slightly different direction. She went out of
the music recording field and into film and soundtrack work
and she's doing really well right now working on movies
like Transformers and other big movies. So so you can
(40:47):
you can adjust the direction that you're going into to
keep your feet in uh, to keep your feet in
the keep your feet wet, keep keeping the business. So
but there are opportunity he's out there. Um. Well, this
might be a controversial question, but I've I've seen interviews
with different women producers, engineers, mixers who say that, yes,
(41:11):
women do bring something different to the table, whether that's
a certain sound or a certain um idea about the
way things should be. And then I've seen other people
say no, no, no, women, No, they're just like men.
It's all the same and it's the work that matters.
Do you look what side of defense do you fall
on are you in the middle, What do you think? Oh,
(41:32):
I think men and women are vastly different creatures. In fact,
you're right, I think they bring different qualities to the work.
And there's uh one thing in particular, um that I
think that women bring in in a recording session when
(41:52):
musicians come in, that being a woman and immediately disarmed
the guys because they're not. You know, there's a thing
that happened when men are together. There's like, you know,
some kind of strutting or whatever, you know, like cock
fights or whatever. I don't know. But with with women,
(42:13):
it's like they feel more comfortable to be themselves. I
think you get better performances. Uh. So it's uh, it's
instantly a better situation. I personally think, you know, because
it depends on the woman. But but I think when
you're working with men in particular, that um that the
(42:39):
being a woman has an advantage. Did you have you
disarmed anybody in your career that that you are aware of? Oh?
So many? And because you can imagine these guys coming
in and they're all burly. Because I work with hard music,
you know, I've worked with Slayer and System of a
Down and uh, you know, a bunch of really hard
(43:01):
rockers and they come in. They've got piercings, and they're
covered with tattoos, and they've got you know, colored hair,
and they're wearing leather and they're stopping around, you know,
and uh and they're really intimidating creatures. And um so, yeah,
I have a lot of fun with them. Right away.
(43:22):
I'll I'll disarmed the session entirely and uh, you know, uh,
just throw a chair or whatever it takes you, you know,
get them loosened up. We have fun. Yeah. Well, so
I'm interested in your take on what's next for the industry,
(43:44):
but also what's next for you? What are what are
you working on? Also, well, this is my first chance.
You know, I didn't mention the fact that I divorced
and moved the studio because of all that. Uh so
this is a chance to really do what I want.
And what I want to do is write a book,
(44:06):
and then I've got another book right after that, and
then I got another book right after that. And I
want to paint. And I'm in a situation now where
I can uh do a little recording, paint a picture,
take a trip. I'll do some workshops in Europe. Uh. Basically,
(44:29):
I don't know if this is retirement. I don't know.
I've been spoiled my whole life. I think by by
doing this this uh, by being in this industry. UH,
it's not work, you know, it's UM, it's inspiration every day.
So so now I'm just going to write and draw
(44:51):
and paint and record music and and have fun. UM.
So that's what's coming up now. I do have several
projects in in UM in the in the works and
as far as music recording projects, I've got to UM
an Australian band coming up this fall, Filthy Luker and
(45:16):
UH another band called Decades that I'll be working with.
UM and I'll be in Dressed in this summer recording
UM two artists in a castle UH and UH in Bergen, Norway.
I'll be going this summer also to record another project. UM. Yeah,
(45:37):
life is good. I don't look like it. I'm luck you, lucky,
lucky me. Well, Sylvia, I've I've asked you a ton
of questions, um and and that's about all I had
for you. But is there anything that you feel like
we didn't touch on, whether it's about women in the industry,
whether it's about your career, um, just about being a
(45:59):
music producer. Anything that you feel like we didn't touch on. Well,
if you really want to be a music producer and
you're a woman, here's what happens is you'll find yourself
thirty seven years old and you'll be having to make
that hard choice career or family, and just make that
(46:24):
choice carefully. That's all I can say, you know. I mean,
I have no children. I missed. I missed that part
of of life as a woman, and I have a
whole world of children though I've worked with four hundred
bands and they have to say that they're kind of
(46:47):
those records and those those songs are are my children,
and these paintings are my children, and um, so I
want to give to the world that way too. But
but boy, being a woman is it is a challenge,
you know, when when you have the pool of wanting
to um, express yourself and creatively, um, it's a trick
(47:13):
to do it and have the family too. So that's
the hard truth. Yeah, have you encountered other producers who
feel the same way, other women in the industry who
feel similarly, Well, you know, that's kind of a personal
thing that I haven't really talked to with other women.
You know, there's so few women when we get together
(47:34):
we don't really talk about Yeah, but yeah, I think
it's an important thing to to talk about with with
the young up and comings. It's just don't miss your chance.
If that's important to just don't miss your chance. Yeah, absolutely,
I mean I think, yeah, that's great advice in any industry,
in any job of course. Um. Well, so, Sylvia, tell
(47:55):
our listeners where they can learn more about you and
about your upcoming book. Yeah. I have a website www.
Sylvia Massey dot com and that is spelled s y
l V I A M A S S y uh.
And on that website is an information about the book,
(48:19):
UM and about the studio here and other projects I'm
working on or have worked on. It's a fun website
full of photos, but the fun things can be This book.
It's coming out on how Leonard How Leonard Publishing UM January,
and uh. It's called Recording Unhinged and it's unconventional recording techniques,
(48:44):
very unconventional, including chickens chickens, yes, and shooting pianos. Yeah. Well, fabulous,
Thank you so much, Sylvia. It's been such a pleasure
talking to you. Well, thank you so much to Sylvia
Massi and to you Caroline for chatting with her. Um.
(49:06):
I know that we have a lot of musicians and
just basic music fans in our audience, so I'm looking
forward to hearing everybody's feedback on this, and also be
sure to keep an eye out in sixteen for her
forthcoming book Recording Unhinged, which she is writing and also illustrating.
What can't Sylvia Massy do? Caroline, pretty sure she can
(49:29):
do everything just about. So, Caroline, what was your favorite
thing that you talked to Sylvia about? Well, I mean,
I loved getting her perspective on the gender aspect of
her job and of the industry because it's it's pretty pronounced.
I kind of, to be honest with you, I didn't
(49:52):
expect her to talk about such a pronounced effect of
the role of gender um whether positive or negative. Uh So,
I really liked her take on that. But I think
as you can tell from listening to me giggle with
her about it, uh really loved hearing about how you
mike a chicken and and prepare a Chicken for its
(50:13):
musical debut. Well, it's also good for us to know
that information for when we have our first chicken guest
on the show, something for listeners to look forward to,
because chickens, you know, they deal with sexism in the
henhouse as well. It's right, all that overcrowding. Yes, it's
gonna lay the eggs, you know, well hands because that's biology,
(50:37):
right well, listeners, if you want to learn more about Sylvia,
head over to her website, Sylvia Massey. That's Massy with
no e dot com. And we now want to hear
from you. Do we have any record producers in our
audience listening? We want to know mom Stuff at house
Stuffworks dot Com is our email address. You can also
(50:58):
tweet us at mom Stuff Podcast and messages on Facebook,
and we've got a couple of messages to share with
you right now. I have a letter here from Owen
in regards to our transgender TV episodes. He says, I'm
a transgender man myself, though I hate feeling like like
(51:20):
I have to preface any trans feminist queer related opinion
with that piece of information. I noticed a few times
during the podcast you used male pronouns when referring to
transgender women pre transition, or used phrases like a cis
gender man transitioning to a transgender woman, and so on.
I can't speak for everybody, of course, but I know
that I prefer the retroactive application of preferred pronouns. For example,
(51:44):
when he was younger, he used to because, regardless of
my physical appearance or how others perceived me at the time,
my gender identity has always been as it is now,
and I could certainly never describe myself as having been
since gender because I've always been transgender. If I had
to refer to the difference in my experience pre and
post transition, I generally used the phrase when I was
(52:05):
perceived as female, though it's rare I use any phrase
that requires me to refer to such an unhappy time
in my life and does so in terms so close
to the very cause of that unhappiness. Being trans always
has been part of my experience, even when others didn't
know it and I didn't have the words to describe it.
Those two are part of the experience, after all, not
(52:25):
having the words in some cases, keeping a secret as
yet not even clearly defined to oneself, and so on.
So I've always been transgender. With all that entails. It
would be a little like referring to someone as having
been straight up until that they came out to you
as gay. I hope that makes sense. Owen goes on
to say other than that, I thoroughly enjoyed the episode
(52:46):
and thank you for the excellent work. As always, I
look forward to hearing part two and more discussion with
the wonderful Raquel Willis. Thank you for reading my two cents,
and thank you for providing those two cents. Ellen. Yeah,
and and that's a really great thing to point out
which has come up a lot with the media coverage
about Caitlin Jenner, because the media, a lot of a
(53:07):
lot of media outlets have been describing her as Caitlyn
Jenner formerly Bruce Jenner, whereas the correct way to say
it is Caitlyn Jenner formerly known as Bruce Jenner, because
it's not like it is an entirely different person. Um So, Owen,
thanks so much for pointing that out and making us
all more aware of the way that we use our language,
(53:29):
because language is powerful. Well, I've got another correction e
letter from LC, subject line vagina having folks. She writes, Hello,
this message is one I've wanted to send you for
a while. I thought it was particularly relevant in light
of the topic of your podcast on transisibility in the media.
I've noticed that in your podcast and in the advertising
(53:51):
you deliver, you often refer to all people who have
vagina slash a uterus and all people who can be
pregnant as women. This made me cringe quite a bit
in the Baby Bump series and in your meet Andy's ads.
It's great to have an explicitly feminist podcast out there,
but part of that needs to include supporting your trans listeners.
Assuming that all vagina holding people identifies women is thoughtless
(54:14):
at the least, and it worst could be seen as transphobic,
which I know you aren't. I hope you'll think about
this and correct your language. I think the podcast is
great and would love to be able to share it
with my trans friends without having to add a caveat
and Elsie, thank you for pointing this out to us
in the way we speak about it. I would also
like to direct you to a stuff Mom Never Told
you video all about this called men can Get Pregnant Too,
(54:37):
because in a conversation about abortion rights reproductive rights UM
it was a very sis focused conversation I was having
and some of YouTube fans pointed that out to me,
so it is something that we are cognizant of and
we appreciate those reminders to stay on our toes about that. So,
if you have things you need us to stay on
(54:57):
our toes about, you can email us mom Stuff and
how stuff We're dot com is our address. You can
also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook,
and for links to all of our social media as
well as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts, head
on over to stuff Mom Never Told You dot com
(55:17):
for more on this and thousands of other topics. Does
It how stuff works dot com
You, guys, we have some excellent and exciting news for you.
How Stuff Works has an all new app featuring all
of the amazing content you have come to expect from us,
as well as all of our other podcasts, including Stuff
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(00:23):
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But that's not all. You can't forget that. We have articles, quizzes, videos,
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Store or to Google Play to get it today. Welcome
(00:48):
to stuff Mom never told you from how stuff Works
dot Com. Welcome podcast and I'm Caroline, and listeners, you
and I are both in Core a treat or Caroline
conversation with music producer extraordinary Sylvia Massey, who is also
coming out with a new book That's Right. It was
(01:08):
a treat to talk to Sylvia. She's sort of a
legend in the industry. She's been known for not only
her producing but also her engineering and mixing. She's worked
with an incredible range of artists to everybody from Prince
and Johnny Cash, who will talk about during in the interview,
but also tool and system of a down So she
(01:31):
this is not a folk music producer by any stretch,
but she's received more than twenty five gold and platinum records,
including for her work with the Red Hot Chili Peppers
and even Tom Petty. So there's that incredible range of
artists and Caroline, how did you first learn about Sylvia Um?
(01:52):
I first heard about Sylvia through my boyfriend who is
also a record producer and engineer, and he recommended that
she would be an incredible person to talk to, not
just about the industry, because she certainly is an incredible
resource for people who are interested in the music industry
and being record producers, but also somebody who has a
(02:12):
really great take on gender and what that means for
that role. Well, I would imagine that Sylvia is one
of a select few female record producers and engineers. I
mean it's a pretty male dominated industry within the industry, right, yeah,
for sure. And I did ask her why she thought
(02:34):
that is why there are such a limited number of
women in the role behind the control board, and so
let's let Sylvia explain it for herself. And so, without
further ado, let's hear from Sylvia Masthey. Al Right, well, Sylvia,
welcome to the podcast. And I was wondering if we
(02:55):
could get started just having you introduce yourself to our
listener and tell them a little bit about what you
do for a living. All Right, my name is Sylvia
Massey and I'm a record producer of doing it for
about thirty five years. Um. Uh and uh yeah, I'm
currently living in Ashland, Oregon, UM recently moved here from California. Okay,
(03:22):
so what what brought brought the move on? Oh? A
number of things. Uh. Well it was a divorce and
uh and uh greener pastors. Well, you know, our listeners
are always interested to hear about the avenues that people
took to get where they are. UM. So I wanted
to ask where your interest in music and especially in
(03:44):
tinkering with electronics came from and how you got your start. Okay, Well,
I started basically in college in Chico, California, UM, where
I was a DJ on the college radio station and
(04:05):
learned how to use the recording equipment there and uh,
What I found was that I really loved the music,
but I wasn't sure about the commerciality of of radio
UM and because it's it's really based around commercials and
(04:25):
the music is secondary for most commercial radio as it
was at that time. So I got into the music
side of it and UH. That eventually brought me to
UM uh San Francisco, where I took a job as
a starting position in a studio called Bear West, and
(04:48):
I wound up recording my own band in the late
night hours at Bear West and UM. With doing that,
a couple of people that heard the the recordings said, Hey,
you know, I like what you did with that, Will
you record my band? So I kind of stepped into
(05:10):
the production role right away, where UM I could direct
the musicians UH to UM to get better performances UM
and direct the recording in a certain way UM uh.
(05:32):
So so that was how I started and it just
kind of went from there. I moved from San Francisco
to Los Angeles when I had an opportunity at one
of the bands I had produced in San Francisco, UM
called the Sea Hags UH was was signed by a
(05:55):
big record label. It was Chrysalis Records, UH and and
when that happened, I thought, this is my big opportunity.
I'm going to do a big major label record. But
as it turned out, they got the budget and went
to Los Angeles and worked with a producer named Mike
Klink who had just finished the The Guns and Roses record,
(06:17):
and I couldn't compete with that, and I realized that
I couldn't be in San Francisco and have a career
in recording the way I wanted it. So then I
moved to Los Angeles and I started there. But it
took a while to get going in Los Angeles. When
you first moved to a new place, you have to
(06:39):
uh get a foothold in the in the community there,
the the industry there, um. So it took a couple
of years before before I got the right doors open
to get a starting position in a in a good
studio there, and that was Larraby Sound um and that's
(07:03):
where I started working with Prince and that's where I
um connected with the other people that would lead me
to tool and um Rick Rubin and my other clients
that that really helped me along. Okay, that's that's fascinating.
Did did you along the way do you have any
(07:25):
mentors of note, anybody who's sort of I don't know,
showed you the ropes or or introduced you to new
equipment or new ways of doing things. Well, I have
to say Rick Rubin was a big influence on how
I record. I had been producing for a while before
I started working with Brick, but he has a certain
way of conducting a recording session which is fascinating and inspiring. Um.
(07:53):
I came from the side of recording where I'm the
handling the technical equipment. Uh and actually you know, changing
the equalization on the microphones and setting up and plugging
everything in and but regroupment doesn't do anything like that.
(08:13):
What he does is he takes the the band or
the musicians, and he decides what songs that those musicians
will play, and then he hires the people to to
record it. That would be me uh in some in
some instances, uh. And then he would uh decide where
(08:37):
the recording would take place. So he put all of us,
he put the songs, the band, the recording crew in
a studio somewhere and then he'd say, okay, go And
then he would check in on it every once in
a while to see how we were doing. And the
fascinating thing is his his choices of songs uh came
(08:58):
from the perspective of a true music fan. So UM,
I started doing that type of of uh A production
to where when I come and start with the band,
I asked them for um, for as many songs as
(09:21):
they can give me. Let's say we're we want to
record ten songs. Well, I like them to present sixties
songs to me, and then we're gonna pick the best
ten songs. That's basically how Rick works too. I think
he'll have an artist come up with three hundred songs
before he'll record fifteen songs. You know, other other specific
(09:47):
techniques that Rick taught me to. I just think that
he's a great one of the one of the great producers. Yeah, awesome. UM.
I'm also really interested in sort of the trajectory that
you took. So how does one specifically you go from
mixing and engineering to producing records and then specifically also
(10:11):
in your case, then becoming an author, writer and artist.
So what was that trajectory? Like, well, I think you know,
like I, like I described, I kind of stepped into
production um from the beginning, and it was kind of
(10:32):
a natural thing, because um, I love art and that
would be my first passion. Uh. But um, when when
I'm working working with a musician on their music, it's
their music, it's not my art, it's their art, so
(10:54):
I can detach from it and I and it's easier
for me to not be emotionally involved in in there
in that art because it's their art and I'm helping
them realize it. Uh, my own art. It took maybe
into you know, forty years to realize how I could
(11:17):
do my own art. And that's really where I'm at
right now. Um. I love the illustration. I love painting,
but I have never really spent the time on on
honing that craft because it is very personal and um,
so I'm just learning about that now. And and actually
(11:38):
the project I'm working on now is a book project
for how Leonard, which is a technical music book. Actually
it's about recording, but I get to illustrate it and
write it. And so this is a whole new thing
for me, and I'm really excited about it because, um,
(11:58):
I can really express my self without someone coming in
and saying, you know, well, we haven't gotten to the
editing stage yet, but I think that the illustrations are
going to fly maybe and uh, and it's a fun book.
It's I get to be goofy and I've had some
I have some great stories, and I've talked to other
(12:21):
producers and engineers who also have great recording stories that
I'll be sharing in the book. So it's a different
world now. Yeah. And so this is recording unhinged, right.
The book is called okay, And so so what's the
process like there are I know I read that you
were interviewing other people in the industry for it. So
(12:43):
was there anything that surprised you about this process or
or as you talk to your colleagues in the industry
as you were going along, Um, well, I am surprised
that there's so much of this type of recording going
on that you never hear about the type of things
that I'm talking about. In my personal experience, UM with
(13:05):
recording was that I, Uh, I've done some crazy things
and to get a performance. Uh. One time we took
um an old piano. This was on the tool record
that undertow record. We took an old piano and miked
it up in a studio and uh and got some
(13:29):
sledgehammers and shotguns and shot it, snatched it up and
recorded the whole thing, and then incorporated that into the record.
Another time, I think we dragged some some uh amplifiers
and guitars up onto a cliff overlooking the ocean, and
we set up some microphones and got to the guitars
(13:53):
to feedback and recorded them being tossed off the cliff.
You know. So there's these crazy stories, and I started
writing them all down, and then I started asking other people,
will tell me about your stories, and surprisingly they had
some incredible stories. Uh. Bob Ezren uh recorded Peter Gabriel
(14:15):
and uh to get him to uh really give a
great performance, he wound up duct taping Peter to the wall.
You know. Uh there's other stories where uh the producers
have the singers stand on ladders so that they are
so busy worrying about falling off the ladder they are
(14:37):
not thinking about their voice, you know, so suddenly they
give a much better performance that way. Um, there's all
kinds of fun little stories about that, and um, and
I'm also describing the techniques with illustrations and photographs, so
it's it's a it's a fun process. And so now
(14:58):
my day is I get up, I come down to
the studio and in my office I've got a big
drafting table with the computer monitors, and I decide, let's
see today. Today my drawing will be, um, how to
shoot a piano? And I already know how it's gonna
(15:21):
be laid out and uh and probably hopefully by the
end of the day i'll have I have it illustrated.
But the yeah, I just finished it a very important
illustration called how do Mike a Chicken? I watched that
video on your website. Did you see it? Yeah? Okay, yeah,
Well this is from experience. I have Mike to chicken
(15:44):
and recorded chicken actually a couple different times. So I
thought I would illustrate the proper way of liking a
chicken from my experience because I am an expert at it.
So yeah, I'm having a great deal of fun with this.
And it's also touching a different side of might create
my creative self because I get to illustrate it for
(16:07):
the first time. That's amazing. Yeah, the chicken video with
something else I don't think. Yeah, I don't think I've
ever seen a chicken being recorded for for musical purposes.
But speaking of chickens and tool. You have worked with
a pretty broad range of artists, including, like you said,
(16:27):
Prince System of a Down, Tom Petty, also Johnny Cash,
or have there been any notoriously big personalities that you
worked with any times he might have been nervous or
just sort of felt Um, what's the word star struck
by anybody you've worked with? Anybody took you by surprise? Oh? Well,
(16:49):
I have plenty. You can imagine coming into a studio
with with that Johnny Cash and meeting him for the
first time, and he was it was a wonderful je
nental soul, very tall and imposing and wearing black of course.
And uh, those sessions were really special because it was
(17:09):
Johnny who you like immediately. And uh, and then Tom
Petty and the Heartbreaker just was his backup band, and
I'd worked with them before and they are great people. Um.
Then we had Lindsey Buckingham and Nick Fleetwood sit in
on some sessions, and Marty Stewart, who's a country hero,
(17:31):
and he came and sat in on sessions. And then
holy cow, we had Carl Perkins come in and we
recorded him, and then Johnny's wife, June Carter Cash, came
in and recorded on some tracks, um other visitors. It
was like every day I would turn my head to
see who's in the room because I'm busy at the console,
(17:51):
you know, And I turned my head around to see
who's sitting on the couch, and it was some other
star every day. It was like Anthony Keatis from Red Out,
Pilie Peppers was there one day, and uh, you know,
it's just it went on and on on. So that
was exciting. Every day was exciting working um with those people. Um.
(18:13):
And then there was some very challenging artist Prince for instance.
I could say he's challenging and uh, but so rewarding
working with Prince because I would find myself uh in
this in in a control room with him only is
just Prince and I and he could play every instrument
(18:35):
in the room. So I would just have everything ready
and plugged in and he would reach for a guitar
or he would reach for a keyboard and I would
have it recording and he would play those instruments and
be dancing at the same time. It was incredible. It
was like my own personal show. Uh so uh every
(18:56):
minute was was great there too, but very into dating,
you know. But when you when you realize that they're
just people and they're just being creative, you know, that
kind of wears off after a little while. Um, but yeah,
it's exciting to meet your heroes, and sometimes you don't
ever want to meet your heroes because it turns out
(19:17):
that they're just people. So you know, if you have
this fantasy about them that goes that will go away. Yeah. Well,
as a as an engineer, as a producer, how do
you shift your gears to work with such different people
and such different artists and how do you get them
to sort of do what you hope they'll do or
(19:39):
is it just purely in a thing of like I'm
stepping back and letting them do what they want to do.
We have to approach each project differently. Uh, it's not
every every technique works with everyone. So uh, I have
to be a FA and that's the that's the bottom line,
(20:03):
And this is what I learned from Rick Rubin is
you just have to be a fan of the music.
And there's great music in every genre and if it
moves you emotionally, then uh, then it's really easy to
help that artist, um to do their best. So that's
(20:23):
that's the trick. I think you just have to be
a fan and adapt to whatever situation comes up. Some
artists need a lot of help and some artists need
no help at all. And there they have everything together,
which is some sometimes dangerous too, because they'll come in
and they'll say, I have the ten songs that we
(20:44):
will be recording, and they have it all planned out. Well,
I might listen to those songs and think, wow, jeez,
why are you recording this song? This is this is
uh second tier song. There's better songs than you. I
might say that to them. They may be a fend
it and say, you don't know what you're talking about,
and we're recording these songs. Well, I have to I
(21:05):
have to also, like just understand that that it is there,
it's their music and uh and and accept the fact that, uh,
they know better than I do as far as what
their music is about. But I'll be a fan and
I'll make my own judgments about it and let them
know that's my job. Well, how do you balance that
(21:28):
the sort of different wills and those different strengths um
in terms of the sound you want versus the sound
they want. I mean, obviously they're the artist, but if
you're producing. How do you how do you balance that? Well,
you know, I'll tiptoe into those situations carefully. I will.
(21:49):
If there's any pushback from them, I'll say, look, let's
just record it this way. Just try and try it
and see what it sounds like. You get them to
to do the part arts, uh, and then we'll take
another liston at it. And then perhaps they convinced me
that yeah, I was not right, this is not the
(22:11):
right thing to do. Um, but answer and some sometimes
it turns out that they listened to the parts recorded
and think, hey, actually this does work. So there's an example.
Just the last week, I recorded an artist locally named
Matt Hill and uh, I heard on one of his songs,
(22:36):
I heard a strings, a string section and uh. So
he allowed me to record the strings on my own uh,
and I did a beautiful string section on it. I
thought the arrangement was fantastic, and I sent him a
rough mix of it and he did not like it.
(22:58):
And I was shocked, was like, what you know, this
is fantastic? What are you talking about? Well? Uh, it
was it was the perspective that he took there, which
was correct, that the the strings overwhelmed the song. And
so what we did was we pulled that down the
(23:20):
strings at so that they were just a hint in
the background, in a in a kind of a out
of focus way. Uh and suddenly the strings work and
they worked for me if they worked for him. So
uh So I have to be careful to listen to
the artists and to realize that there they have a
(23:43):
different perspective in it, and that's something to really consider.
It's not my music, you know, but I'll do my
best to really bring out the the the to showcase
this song. And we'll get back to our conversation with
Sylvia Massey just for this quick break. Well, in terms
(24:09):
of the long hours and the hard work that you
put into engineering or producing a record, have you ever
had any trouble getting credit where credits do, whether that
means just not having your hard work recognized or literally
not being credited properly on a record. Well, back when
I started, that was always an issue. I did work
(24:33):
on an Aerosmith track, the song take Me to the
Other Side, and UM, I think I did get a credit,
but not not the type of credit, um that I
should have UM. On. On the other hand, there were
projects like the Prince projects where he makes you bust
(24:56):
your ass, you know, but then he credits you really well.
So I actually got mixing credit co mixing credit on
a on a project that I I uh my, my
contribution was minimal UM, which was great. You know, I
think he's very generous with credits UM. But when you're
(25:19):
starting out those that these are big issues, which are
even more challenging now because it's difficult to even find
credits on anything now. I mean you really have to
search and hope across across your figures that the credits
that you see online are correct. And this is something
(25:44):
else that we're working with working towards UM through NARROWS,
which is the National Academy of Recording Arts and Sciences UH,
is to make sure that the engineers and producers are
credited UM, you know, way that it's easily found and
it's correct. UM. There's an advocacy programs through narra's to
(26:08):
get this done UM. I was on the Steering Commedity
Committee for the Producers and Engineers Wing UH at narra's
for a while and I'm still on the advisory board.
And I think that anyone who's serious about produce production
UH or music and doing their own music recording music
(26:30):
should be a member of Narra's okay, um, but yeah again,
speaking about the hard work that you've put in, you
have earned more than twenty five golden platinum records, and
so I want to know what your what was your
first and how did this end up affecting your career? Oh? Wow, Well,
(26:50):
the golden platinum records are are awarded for sales. So
a platinum record is is a million copies sold? A
gold record is uh five thousand copies sold. So I
think my first gold record was a Prince record, the
(27:15):
Prince song Cream, which was a remix that did very well.
Uh and uh, it was exciting getting that record. It
just came in the mail and I opened it up
and had pictures taken and sent it to my mom. Uh.
So yeah, it's very exciting. Uh. Of course having a
(27:38):
record do well with sales, um is what kick starts
your career. So for me, that was this silly record
called Green Jello. The band changed their name to Green
Jelly after General Foods. I think uh forced them to
(28:01):
change the name. They didn't want to be associated with
a horrible rock band. But it was a joke. It
was kind of a joke record that we did for
fun Um and it sold. It's sold up to a
million copies, I think worldwide, definitely, with a song called
(28:21):
three Little Pigs, and that was the one that really
kicked started my career. It was funny because when I
was in Los Angeles after I made the move and
I finally got a job at Lara B Sound and uh,
I had been working there and and had done a
lot of work with some major artists, Prince included. But
(28:44):
it wasn't until that Green Jello uh started bubbling under
that I realized that this was going to break my
career because, uh, the studio manager, Kevin Mills, came into
the into this control room one day with a Billboard
magazine and he pointed at the Hot one hundred singles
(29:06):
chart and there was three Little Pigs on it, number
twenty four. He says, you you, He said, you don't
understand what this means. And I actually I didn't realize
what that meant. And that what it meant is that
I have a career. I had a career. Um and
so one one hit record and all the producer managers
start calling and here I've been knocking on their door
(29:28):
over and over again, like hey, look, I've got this
body of work and I've worked with prints and blah
blah blah. But it's not until you produced something that's
almost charts, uh, that there everybody wants to represent you.
And suddenly I got to pick the best manager in
Los Angeles. His name was Frank McDonough and mcdonnah represented
(29:51):
me for a good fifteen more than fifteen years from
that moment. Awesome. Yeah, Um well, I was wondering if
any of the bands that you worked with, the artists
that you worked with, ever reacted differently, whether positively or negatively,
to working with a woman. And was there anything also
(30:12):
with other producers or even record label execs that maybe
they acted differently because you were a woman. I think
that when I started out that people would come in
and they might watch their language in front of me,
or you know, like you know, I think that's pretty much. Yet, though,
(30:37):
once they got to know me and realized that I
cursed like a sailor, that they stopped being shy around me. Um. So,
I think that I think it's a difficult job for anyone,
men or women. Uh and uh so I don't I
(30:59):
really have not felt any kind of discrimination in the studio. However,
I am surprised there's not more women doing it. In fact,
there's It's it's dramatic how few women are actually in
the in the industry. Why do you think that there
are so few? I saw one estimate that maybe five
(31:20):
percent of record producers and engineers or women. Why why
do you think that is? I think it's actually less
than that. UM. I have an idea of why that is.
And uh, it has to do with human biology more
than anything. And and it's just because women naturally gravitate
(31:42):
into jobs where they can have social interaction with people.
Uh and uh and and it may be as basic
as that. UM. I wish that there were more women
in the in the industry. And actually I'm uh, I
don't know what happened to me as far as that goes.
(32:06):
I kind of like being in a cave, um by
myself for the most part. And and I just love music,
so um, those natural gravitations didn't apply. UM. But I think, yeah,
most women are too smart. I think most women I
(32:29):
want to um, to be able to interact with people
and to meet people, and and so they have different
career paths. Uh, it takes so long to get started
in in a career in recording, and you have to
really do fourteen hour days for for ten years straight, um,
(32:56):
taking every job, barely getting paid, and and it's just
too long to wait, you know, for most people. Did
you when you were in college, for instance, working at
the radio station, did you know other young women who
were interested in the same things you were. I'm just
wondering if there's some sort of pipeline leak that you know.
(33:16):
Kristen and I talked about on the podcast a lot,
especially in terms of science jobs, technology jobs, things like that.
We always talk about the pipeline of where women and
young girls to start out being super interested in maybe
a science or a technology field, and then as they
get older, they tend to sort of fall out or
fall behind. And have you noticed that in the in
(33:38):
the industry, Urine, there are a lot of people that
a lot of women that are interested and they do
go to school. Uh and they uh, they, But like
I say, it takes so long. I think they get
discouraged after five years of not making any money and
being cooped up in a studio. Uh So yeah, I
(34:02):
I absolutely understand where they go. For me, UM, there
was a leak and that was in San Francisco. There
was a studio called the Automat. And when I first
started out, and when I first moved to San Francisco, UM,
I knew that there were there was recording going on
there and they had all the big acts. It was Santana,
(34:27):
was Jefferson Airplane. They were all recording in this place.
And I'd sit out in the parking lot across the
street with a friend who was a parking lot attended
h and I'd watched the engineers go in and out
of the studio and the during the day, and I
noticed that there were there there were two women that
(34:49):
worked on staff there. One was Maureen Droni and one
was Leslie and Jones, and I knew who they were,
and I'd see them walk in and I knew that
Maureen was recording Santana, and I knew that Lesliean was
doing some other equally UM high profile project. And for me,
so so seeing that, I thought, well, these girls, this
(35:12):
is this is what these this is what women do.
The women go and they take these jobs, their technical jobs,
and uh and certainly if they can do it, I
can do it, So that really inspired me to um
to continue. Leslie and Jones today runs Skywalker Sound of
(35:33):
the studios there in in Marin County outside of San Francisco.
That's George Lucas's place. And UH and Maureen dron E
uh is the head of the Peony Wing for the
National Academy of Recording Arts and Sciences. So she's done
really well, but she's not recording. Uh. Leslian is recording
(35:56):
every day. But it's it's important to have those those
people who inspire you to continue. As far as women go,
you need to have, um, these role models who says
to just to let you know that, yeah, if this
is a direction you want to go in, then absolutely
the it's something that you can do. Yeah, absolutely. Well,
(36:22):
you know you've mentored a fair number of young engineers yourself.
What advice do you have for girls or boys who
are interested in pursuing a career at the control board? Well,
I met with Susan Rodgers recently for the book. She
was an engineer for Prince and all his early work
(36:46):
and some of the greatest recordings that he ever's done. UM,
and she had some very wise advice and that was
if you're getting into recording, diversify and specialize in one
thing or a couple of things that that are are particular.
(37:10):
Like for her, she was a tech she could fix
equipment so as well as well she was a recording engineer,
but she also could fix anything, so there was added
value in having her around. If you're going up against
twenty other people for a job, then you need an edge.
(37:31):
So uh, you know, if you're a programmer, if you
can program music, that's a huge advantage. If you're great
background singer, that's a good advantage. Uh, if you can
in fact create websites, you're going to find that musicians
(37:52):
will want to have you on their team. So you'll
probably get more production gigs that way, or engineering as
that way. Um. So there's a lot of different avenues
you can take that will give you added value, um
when you're competing against a large pool of people. So
(38:13):
that's one thing I thought Susan Rodgers had some great advice.
So with with that, well, what do you tell the
young engineers that you work with, especially if they get
discouraged or if they're you know, starting to wonder if
this is what's right for them or if they're just
looking for sort of a way to continue in the industry,
what do you what do you tell them? Well, that's
(38:35):
that's sometimes difficult. You know. I'll always say, you know,
do just to stick with a stick with it, stick
with it. But at some point, uh, you have to
make these life choices and go in a different direction
if that's if that's truly what you need to do. Honestly,
in the the three or five years, or let's say,
(39:00):
since two thousand when I started my own studio up
here in in northern California, UM, I've only really run
into four engineers that I thought should do this forever.
You know, it takes such dedication and you have to
(39:21):
have such good hearing and understanding of music. There's very
few people that have everything it takes, UM, and I
can I can name them on one hand. You know,
the people that I absolutely trust with any project, and
they're they're the best, UM, because I think that you
(39:42):
need to know more than just engineering. You need to
be able to mix, and mixing is the hardest thing
to do. UH. You have to take everything that you
were recorded and blended at to uh, to to where
you have depth of field and you have dynamics in
(40:04):
the music and you capture the essence of the song
and the artists. Um, and that just seems to be
the hardest thing to do. So uh, there are women
that have come through the studio. One in particular, Lorie Castro,
is an engineer. She works in Los Angeles now and
(40:26):
she took a slightly different direction. She went out of
the music recording field and into film and soundtrack work
and she's doing really well right now working on movies
like Transformers and other big movies. So so you can
(40:47):
you can adjust the direction that you're going into to
keep your feet in uh, to keep your feet in
the keep your feet wet, keep keeping the business. So
but there are opportunity he's out there. Um. Well, this
might be a controversial question, but I've I've seen interviews
with different women producers, engineers, mixers who say that, yes,
(41:11):
women do bring something different to the table, whether that's
a certain sound or a certain um idea about the
way things should be. And then I've seen other people
say no, no, no, women, No, they're just like men.
It's all the same and it's the work that matters.
Do you look what side of defense do you fall
on are you in the middle, What do you think? Oh,
(41:32):
I think men and women are vastly different creatures. In fact,
you're right, I think they bring different qualities to the work.
And there's uh one thing in particular, um that I
think that women bring in in a recording session when
(41:52):
musicians come in, that being a woman and immediately disarmed
the guys because they're not. You know, there's a thing
that happened when men are together. There's like, you know,
some kind of strutting or whatever, you know, like cock
fights or whatever. I don't know. But with with women,
(42:13):
it's like they feel more comfortable to be themselves. I
think you get better performances. Uh. So it's uh, it's
instantly a better situation. I personally think, you know, because
it depends on the woman. But but I think when
you're working with men in particular, that um that the
(42:39):
being a woman has an advantage. Did you have you
disarmed anybody in your career that that you are aware of? Oh?
So many? And because you can imagine these guys coming
in and they're all burly. Because I work with hard music,
you know, I've worked with Slayer and System of a
Down and uh, you know, a bunch of really hard
(43:01):
rockers and they come in. They've got piercings, and they're
covered with tattoos, and they've got you know, colored hair,
and they're wearing leather and they're stopping around, you know,
and uh and they're really intimidating creatures. And um so, yeah,
I have a lot of fun with them. Right away.
(43:22):
I'll I'll disarmed the session entirely and uh, you know, uh,
just throw a chair or whatever it takes you, you know,
get them loosened up. We have fun. Yeah. Well, so
I'm interested in your take on what's next for the industry,
(43:44):
but also what's next for you? What are what are
you working on? Also, well, this is my first chance.
You know, I didn't mention the fact that I divorced
and moved the studio because of all that. Uh so
this is a chance to really do what I want.
And what I want to do is write a book,
(44:06):
and then I've got another book right after that, and
then I got another book right after that. And I
want to paint. And I'm in a situation now where
I can uh do a little recording, paint a picture,
take a trip. I'll do some workshops in Europe. Uh. Basically,
(44:29):
I don't know if this is retirement. I don't know.
I've been spoiled my whole life. I think by by
doing this this uh, by being in this industry. UH,
it's not work, you know, it's UM, it's inspiration every day.
So so now I'm just going to write and draw
(44:51):
and paint and record music and and have fun. UM.
So that's what's coming up now. I do have several
projects in in UM in the in the works and
as far as music recording projects, I've got to UM
an Australian band coming up this fall, Filthy Luker and
(45:16):
UH another band called Decades that I'll be working with.
UM and I'll be in Dressed in this summer recording
UM two artists in a castle UH and UH in Bergen, Norway.
I'll be going this summer also to record another project. UM. Yeah,
(45:37):
life is good. I don't look like it. I'm luck you, lucky,
lucky me. Well, Sylvia, I've I've asked you a ton
of questions, um and and that's about all I had
for you. But is there anything that you feel like
we didn't touch on, whether it's about women in the industry,
whether it's about your career, um, just about being a
(45:59):
music producer. Anything that you feel like we didn't touch on. Well,
if you really want to be a music producer and
you're a woman, here's what happens is you'll find yourself
thirty seven years old and you'll be having to make
that hard choice career or family, and just make that
(46:24):
choice carefully. That's all I can say, you know. I mean,
I have no children. I missed. I missed that part
of of life as a woman, and I have a
whole world of children though I've worked with four hundred
bands and they have to say that they're kind of
(46:47):
those records and those those songs are are my children,
and these paintings are my children, and um, so I
want to give to the world that way too. But
but boy, being a woman is it is a challenge,
you know, when when you have the pool of wanting
to um, express yourself and creatively, um, it's a trick
(47:13):
to do it and have the family too. So that's
the hard truth. Yeah, have you encountered other producers who
feel the same way, other women in the industry who
feel similarly, Well, you know, that's kind of a personal
thing that I haven't really talked to with other women.
You know, there's so few women when we get together
(47:34):
we don't really talk about Yeah, but yeah, I think
it's an important thing to to talk about with with
the young up and comings. It's just don't miss your chance.
If that's important to just don't miss your chance. Yeah, absolutely,
I mean I think, yeah, that's great advice in any industry,
in any job of course. Um. Well, so, Sylvia, tell
(47:55):
our listeners where they can learn more about you and
about your upcoming book. Yeah. I have a website www.
Sylvia Massey dot com and that is spelled s y
l V I A M A S S y uh.
And on that website is an information about the book,
(48:19):
UM and about the studio here and other projects I'm
working on or have worked on. It's a fun website
full of photos, but the fun things can be This book.
It's coming out on how Leonard How Leonard Publishing UM January,
and uh. It's called Recording Unhinged and it's unconventional recording techniques,
(48:44):
very unconventional, including chickens chickens, yes, and shooting pianos. Yeah. Well, fabulous,
Thank you so much, Sylvia. It's been such a pleasure
talking to you. Well, thank you so much to Sylvia
Massi and to you Caroline for chatting with her. Um.
(49:06):
I know that we have a lot of musicians and
just basic music fans in our audience, so I'm looking
forward to hearing everybody's feedback on this, and also be
sure to keep an eye out in sixteen for her
forthcoming book Recording Unhinged, which she is writing and also illustrating.
What can't Sylvia Massy do? Caroline, pretty sure she can
(49:29):
do everything just about. So, Caroline, what was your favorite
thing that you talked to Sylvia about? Well, I mean,
I loved getting her perspective on the gender aspect of
her job and of the industry because it's it's pretty pronounced.
I kind of, to be honest with you, I didn't
(49:52):
expect her to talk about such a pronounced effect of
the role of gender um whether positive or negative. Uh So,
I really liked her take on that. But I think
as you can tell from listening to me giggle with
her about it, uh really loved hearing about how you
mike a chicken and and prepare a Chicken for its
(50:13):
musical debut. Well, it's also good for us to know
that information for when we have our first chicken guest
on the show, something for listeners to look forward to,
because chickens, you know, they deal with sexism in the
henhouse as well. It's right, all that overcrowding. Yes, it's
gonna lay the eggs, you know, well hands because that's biology,
(50:37):
right well, listeners, if you want to learn more about Sylvia,
head over to her website, Sylvia Massey. That's Massy with
no e dot com. And we now want to hear
from you. Do we have any record producers in our
audience listening? We want to know mom Stuff at house
Stuffworks dot Com is our email address. You can also
(50:58):
tweet us at mom Stuff Podcast and messages on Facebook,
and we've got a couple of messages to share with
you right now. I have a letter here from Owen
in regards to our transgender TV episodes. He says, I'm
a transgender man myself, though I hate feeling like like
(51:20):
I have to preface any trans feminist queer related opinion
with that piece of information. I noticed a few times
during the podcast you used male pronouns when referring to
transgender women pre transition, or used phrases like a cis
gender man transitioning to a transgender woman, and so on.
I can't speak for everybody, of course, but I know
that I prefer the retroactive application of preferred pronouns. For example,
(51:44):
when he was younger, he used to because, regardless of
my physical appearance or how others perceived me at the time,
my gender identity has always been as it is now,
and I could certainly never describe myself as having been
since gender because I've always been transgender. If I had
to refer to the difference in my experience pre and
post transition, I generally used the phrase when I was
(52:05):
perceived as female, though it's rare I use any phrase
that requires me to refer to such an unhappy time
in my life and does so in terms so close
to the very cause of that unhappiness. Being trans always
has been part of my experience, even when others didn't
know it and I didn't have the words to describe it.
Those two are part of the experience, after all, not
(52:25):
having the words in some cases, keeping a secret as
yet not even clearly defined to oneself, and so on.
So I've always been transgender. With all that entails. It
would be a little like referring to someone as having
been straight up until that they came out to you
as gay. I hope that makes sense. Owen goes on
to say other than that, I thoroughly enjoyed the episode
(52:46):
and thank you for the excellent work. As always, I
look forward to hearing part two and more discussion with
the wonderful Raquel Willis. Thank you for reading my two cents,
and thank you for providing those two cents. Ellen. Yeah,
and and that's a really great thing to point out
which has come up a lot with the media coverage
about Caitlin Jenner, because the media, a lot of a
(53:07):
lot of media outlets have been describing her as Caitlyn
Jenner formerly Bruce Jenner, whereas the correct way to say
it is Caitlyn Jenner formerly known as Bruce Jenner, because
it's not like it is an entirely different person. Um So, Owen,
thanks so much for pointing that out and making us
all more aware of the way that we use our language,
(53:29):
because language is powerful. Well, I've got another correction e
letter from LC, subject line vagina having folks. She writes, Hello,
this message is one I've wanted to send you for
a while. I thought it was particularly relevant in light
of the topic of your podcast on transisibility in the media.
I've noticed that in your podcast and in the advertising
(53:51):
you deliver, you often refer to all people who have
vagina slash a uterus and all people who can be
pregnant as women. This made me cringe quite a bit
in the Baby Bump series and in your meet Andy's ads.
It's great to have an explicitly feminist podcast out there,
but part of that needs to include supporting your trans listeners.
Assuming that all vagina holding people identifies women is thoughtless
(54:14):
at the least, and it worst could be seen as transphobic,
which I know you aren't. I hope you'll think about
this and correct your language. I think the podcast is
great and would love to be able to share it
with my trans friends without having to add a caveat
and Elsie, thank you for pointing this out to us
in the way we speak about it. I would also
like to direct you to a stuff Mom Never Told
you video all about this called men can Get Pregnant Too,
(54:37):
because in a conversation about abortion rights reproductive rights UM
it was a very sis focused conversation I was having
and some of YouTube fans pointed that out to me,
so it is something that we are cognizant of and
we appreciate those reminders to stay on our toes about that. So,
if you have things you need us to stay on
(54:57):
our toes about, you can email us mom Stuff and
how stuff We're dot com is our address. You can
also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook,
and for links to all of our social media as
well as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts, head
on over to stuff Mom Never Told You dot com
(55:17):
for more on this and thousands of other topics. Does
It how stuff works dot com
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