January 2, 2013 • 33 mins
Most people are familiar with the trope of the terrible, no good mother-in-law, and studies confirm often-strained mother-in-law relationships. So does this stereotype have evolutionary roots? Listen in to learn more.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to stuff Mom Never told You. From how Stuff
Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm
Kristen and I'm Caroline. And this episode comes from a
listener request and it was a great one. And she
(00:23):
as she asked on Facebook, what's up with the mother
in law stereotype? By mother in law, I mean monster
in law that mothers in law are make life living
hell for especially the daughters in law, like whoever their
son marries or they they're just meddlesome. They pop over
(00:46):
whenever they want and really life would be better without them. Marie,
that's that's from Everybody Loves Rainon. Oh yeah, stereotypical awful
mother in law. Yeah, t he loves a good obnoxious
in law. TV tropes dot Org that we've signed a
number of times refers to this as the obnoxious in laws.
(01:08):
A happily married couple of faces various problems, but none
quite like the sitcom in law. A member of one
couple's family, Often the wife says an obnoxious animosity towards
their relative spouse. They hate the person their daughter, sister, son,
brother is married to and aren't shy about reaffirming it.
And I feel like among the obnoxious in laws. The
(01:29):
mother in law takes the cake, maybe because of Everybody
Loves Raymond. Doris Roberts plays Marie Barone, and I make
a point to not watch Everybody Loves Raymond. No offense
to yell our fans out there, But if she's one
of the reasons I wouldn't. I don't think I could
(01:50):
sit through an entire episode. Yeah, it's just she's like,
you're not eating enough. What are they feeding you? Yeah? Now,
I have to say that when my parents watched that show,
my mother just looks at my father and it's like,
do you see that? Do you? Does that look familiar?
Chad Well. So other pop culture examples are Bewitched for
(02:12):
Bewitched fans and Dora Samantha's mom comes over and always
is always like putting her nose in their witchy business meet.
The parents built an entire franchise around Cookie in law,
so that was more focused on the dangerous father in law. Yeah. Um.
And then there is Jane fund At, Jane Fonda, why
why did you? Why did you make the movie Monster
(02:35):
in Law co starring Jennifer Lopez and that guy with
the hair. I don't know. I don't know which guy.
I don't know either, um, but maybe I mean these
the fact that the stereotype exists, it's not completely baseless
because historically there have been some pretty infamous mothers in law.
(02:57):
By infamous, you mean great. So you guys remember FDR Right,
that president at that time. Yeah, he was recently played
by Bill Murray. Yeah, that's right, that's right. I'm looking
forward to that. I'm I think I think I am
his mother. Sarah Delano Roosevelt actually took him on a
(03:17):
cruise to dissuade him from marrying his distant cousin Eleanor.
She lost that battle, um, and as a wedding present.
So okay. One of the big things about mothers in
law is that daughters in law often think that they're
like putting their nose into their business. She actually built
them a house and completely furnished it herself and was like, here,
you go, make this your kingdom. So that that's a
(03:40):
that's a pretty big like nose sticking into I think
my favorite, though, is Madge Gates Wallace, whose daughter Best
married Harry Truman. So the whole time that that Harry
is is courting Best, Madge is just not having it.
She's like, I don't approve of you. You're no good
you're not educated, and if you're not good enough. Um.
(04:02):
She actually looked after them as newlyweds because they couldn't
afford their own house, and even after they got to
the White House, she still belittled her son in law constantly,
even when she moved into the White House with them. Yeah,
she actually favored Thomas Dewey to win the election by
(04:22):
a landslide, and Truman was like, come on, mom, masag
didn't care. Um now over. In the Telegraph, Lisa Dillner
cites Queen Victoria as having um a rocky relationship with
her daughters in law. One of them, Alex was not
allowed to breastfeed because old Vics did. Was not into that.
(04:45):
She didn't like that idea. Margaret Thatcher, also the Iron Lady,
was said to be a formidable mother in law um,
having invested far too much in her son according to
her son's now at X wife. But apparently that was
a major source of attention in their marriage. Was Margaret
Thatcher always or maybe Meryl Streep, always coming over to
(05:09):
the house and announce, who do I have to marry to?
Get Meryl Street to come hang out with me. No. Uh.
And then for a real life example, I found this
over at a Slate's advice column, Asked Prudence. A woman
wrote in frantically asking for advice because she was worried
that her mother in law was attempting to poison her
food because anytime they would have like a weekly meal
(05:31):
over at her husband's parents house. And she swears up
and down that every time she would become violently ill
with food poisoning, but her husband would be fine. But
the problem was the husband would kind of like kind
of laugh it off and think that she was sort
of overreacting, whereas she really thought that the mother in
law was out to kill her. And then also in
(05:54):
my research I found this uh random, very random Russian
joke point out like how this is kind of a
a global stereotype and it goes something like this, children
of the Flowers of life. Wife's mother is a cactus
of death. Cactus of death. I'm getting that tattoo. That's
(06:15):
gonna be my first tattoo. Well, I think one thing, um,
and we'll get into this more is you have to
consider the time period when this uh the stereotype was rampant.
Especially Luisa Dilner at The Telegraph points this out that
mother in law jokes in the UK at least were
on every comedy stage in the mid twentieth century because
(06:38):
at the time a lot of young married couples would
initially live with parents before they could afford their own
place and move out on their own. So you know,
understandably some tensions might arise. Can you imagine, like you
can't go anywhere, you just have to live with her.
(06:58):
You just got to do it day. Well, my my
mother also is very um. She likes to consider herself
a very good mother in law and wants to avoid
the stereotypes so much so that she refers to her
daughters in law as her daughters in love. Just I
think Disney birds just flew around the studio. They're just
(07:19):
my daughters in love outside daughters in law. Um. But
surveys also indicate that the acrimony is is very apparent
in the mother in law and especially if mother in
law to daughter in law, there's something about that relationship.
So read Book magazine reported on a survey showing that
(07:41):
mothers in law are kind of kind of like my mom,
bless her heart like to think that they are very
easy going on their daughters in law, that they're not,
you know, they're they're not the Doris Roberts on Everybody
Loves Raymond. Sixty percent would describe their daughter in law
as a daughter, friend, or the right woman for the
a son. Only ten percent referred to the daughter in
(08:02):
law as the enemy um and thought that they were
just okay or marginally disliked her. But still a majority
of them liked overall like the daughter in law. Although
and this is where I think a root of a
lot of attention comes in. Six copped to giving unsolicited
(08:25):
advice to the daughter in law. Yeah actually, well, forty
one point four percent of mothers in law surveys said
that their daughters in law never follow their advice that
they offered, and I just picture them like filling in
that bubble with an eye roll and a heavy sigh,
like never um. They they liked their daughters in law
(08:47):
in general, fifty three point nine percent said very much,
seven said she's okay, Yeah, she's she's okay, and nine
point one percent said not not at all. But there
seems to be more just pleasure when it comes to
the daughter in law evaluating the mother in law. Yeah,
as we'll get into a little bit when we talk
about advice and what to do with your pesky mother
(09:09):
and or daughter in law. I don't know whether it
would be and or anyway, daughters in law are sort
of primed to be a little sensitive and think that
the mother in law is meddling. So this Village study
found that, according to its users, fifty one percent of
daughters in law would rather stay home and clean than
(09:29):
have to listen to their mothers in law. So let's
talk about what women would rather do than go hang
out with the monster in law. Would rather visit a gynecologist.
Now that involves a speculum. I like my doctor. I
like my doctor too, But they would rather get intimate
with a speculum then go hang out with their mother
in law. Point, would rather do jury duty, would prefer
(09:54):
to do their taxes or get a root canal. That's
that's intense. And seventy six seventy six per cent said
they would never seek parenting advice from a mother in law.
It's just going around in my head now, um, and yeah,
I mean we were putting on something. A survey from
Red Book a survey from eye village, and that might
(10:17):
not seem like the most scholarly sources, but studies into
in law relationships have not only highlighted this tension, particularly
with the daughters in law and mothers in law, but
also highlighted, unfortunately again the mother in law as above
(10:37):
and beyond generally the most troublesome in law. And this
is also a cross cultural pattern. There was a ninety
nine study comparing attitudes among families in the US, Kuwait, Egypt,
and Sedan, and all of them finger pointed to the
mother in law. Mama's just love their babies, their sons,
(11:00):
they do, they do, and and they love their daughters.
I mean this can go obviously like different ways. Um So,
because of this stereotype and because survey data continues to
point out that this problematic relationship, Cambridge University psychologist Terry
Apter looked into it a little bit deeper to try
(11:22):
to get to the bottom of what's going on, and
she wrote a book about it called What Do You
Want from Me? Learning to Get Along Within Laws? And
she actually found some pretty some pretty telling patterns about
what's going on a lot of times. Yeah, she said
that it's generally a clash of expectations and assumptions, thing
that the things that the mother in law assume are
(11:43):
going to happen, things that the daughter in law is
worried will happen. And she said that of women describe
the mother and daughter in law relationship as strained, infuriating,
and simply awful, whereas only fifteen percent of men complained
about their mother in law. Yeah, and she attributes this
to an issue of vulnerability. Um because two thirds of
(12:07):
women said they felt that their mothers in law were
jealous of their relationships with sons, while two thirds of
mothers in law said they felt excluded by their son's wives.
And meanwhile, the son is apparently just kicking up his
feet and of an abruski or something like this. Also,
we should also point out that almost all of this
(12:28):
research is exclusively dealing with heterosexual married couples. Um and
uh After also cites some other studies, such as one
that came out of Japan in two thousand and eight
and it was published in the journal Heart, which found
that women living in multigenerational households were two to three
(12:50):
times more likely to experience to experience coronary heart surgery
than women living with just their spouse, and there is
something about proximity that seems to increase that tension, at
least according to results from an Italian study. This is
my favorite, my favorite study maybe ever. Uh. This is
(13:10):
a National Statistics Institute study of Italian families. They found
that the odds that a marriage will last increase with
every one hundred yards couples placed between them and they're
in laws, to the point where Italian courts even ruled
that a wife has the right to a legal separation
if her husband is not effective in preventing his mother
(13:32):
from quote unquote invading their home. So that's pretty intense.
So essentially, if you want to avoid this conflict, just
move live far away. Yeah, because well that also sort
of removes a lot of the sticky factor, like the
awkwardness of like, please don't just drop by my house,
Please don't take over the raising of my children. Well,
(13:54):
and and the thing is too once when it's just
a couple, you know, it's it's much easier to manage
those relationships. But as After points out, kids are often
the tipping point, especially with that mother daughter dynamic. And
this was reported on um in Time magazine she found
(14:16):
that in all ethnic cultures included in her research and
across generations, child rearing was one of the most constant
and stressful sources of conflict between daughters in law and
mothers in law. And that ties in uh, perhaps issues
of vulnerability, issues of unsolicited advice of the mother in law,
you know, stepping into maybe trying to discipline a child
(14:38):
when that might be out of bounds. Uh So, so
kids can understand, understandably complicate things. And there was a
paper that I found by Mary Claire more Seroics called
Getting Along with in in Laws, which was essentially a
meta analysis a lot on a lot of literature published
on in law relationships. And she points out that these
(15:00):
are odd relationships to begin with, the whole in law thing,
and they are described in very academic terms as triatic
and non voluntary, which essentially means you were asking for
tension like no one you know you you can't pick
your parents in law and uh and and parents can't
(15:22):
pick their their daughters and sons in law. And so
while that doesn't doom all of them to be terrible,
it does predict maybe some some bumps here and there. Yeah,
I mean, particularly if you're coming from different backgrounds and
just totally different cultures and and or just simply your
your family did things differently. And plus you're building your
(15:43):
own family, whether you're having babies or puppies or kiddies
or whatever you're having, Like, the way that you do
things in your household is bound to be taking from
both of your backgrounds. And so one side or the
other side might think, well, that that's just not that's
not how I did it right and um, and that's
a good point because sometimes the parents in laws might perceive, uh,
(16:08):
lifestyles that are different from theirs, or child ruting tactics
that are different from from theirs as negative judgments on
how they raised their kids. Um, so that's something that
can also come up. And I can understand. I obviously
I do not have a mother in law at this point,
but having met boyfriends mother's it's always a nerve racking experience.
(16:31):
The first time, it takes me a long time to dress.
I consider my outfit carefully. You know, you want to
present the best possible side of yourself because you know
you you don't you want to create a harmonious relationship
with your partner's parents. If at all possible. There was
there was one relationship in college. I I don't think
(16:51):
he listens to the podcast because they could get awkward.
But there was one relationship in college where I met
his mother, and of course I was nervous going into
You're always nervous. She was so nice and so gracious,
and then I felt so bad when I broke up
with her son because she was already like, you know,
buying me things and giving me Christmas presents. Did she
(17:14):
ask you to call her mom? No? No, it didn't
get that far, but she did, Like I don't know.
I was at her house one time and I made
a comment about how nice all of her like cookware was.
I think she had like some fancy brand. It was
really nice. And she was like, well, you know, I
I hope one day to pass it down. And I
was just like, oh god, I'm in college, I'm twenty
(17:35):
years old, please. So so there is it is on
the there's a whole spectrum of in law type relationships well,
and funnily enough, the mother in law the daughter in law.
Attention has even been in Science e News in recent
months because there is a suggestion that this tension has
(17:58):
been around for are a long long time and might
be the evolutionary explanation for menopause, because what is it, Humans,
killer whales, and only a few other species actually go
through experience menopause for the for the females. So scientists
(18:20):
are still trying to figure out why why do we
have why do we have menopause? And then why do
women live a lot longer beyond that? Because evolutionarily, once
you're done being able to procreate, your useless, so die,
let's get out of here. Yeah, there's a finished study
that was published in the journal Ecology Letters in August.
(18:44):
They looked at and this is I think this is
really interesting because I'm a total genealogy nerd. They looked
at church birth, marriage, and death records from seventeen o
two to nineteen o eight and found that the chances
of children dying increased when mothers in law and daughters
in law gave birth around the same time, but it
(19:04):
was not true if mothers and daughters had children at
the same time, so children of older women uh. In
this in the mother in law daughter in law dynamic
children of older women UH, their survival rate dropped by
fifty children of the daughter in law, uh survival rate
dropped sixty six percent, And so why why is this happening?
(19:27):
And they think that perhaps in laws fought over food
for their children instead of cooperating as mothers and daughters
might Rayman again, no lasagna for those twins. Yeah, and
as to the this is more of a side note.
But as to the rational behind, why are the hypothesis
behind why women do live past menopause? Why we have grandmothers?
(19:51):
Essentially is uh the so called grand grandmother hypothesis claiming that, um,
they're useful. Grandmothers are very useful because they are an
additional resource to help with child rearing. And since they
can't have kids anymore than they competition. There's no competition,
they can allocate their resources. But unfortunately, allocating those resources
(20:14):
sometimes causes friction with the in laws. But we've talked
so much about uh, daughters in law and mothers in
law and yeah, and the father in law too, Like
it's clearly getting a pass, even though I'm sure he
can be troublesome sometimes too. But there is a chance,
(20:34):
according to one recent study, that maybe the son in
law is the key to everything. Yeah, Terry or bach Uh,
who's a psychologist and research professor at University of Michigan
did a twenty six year longitudinal study of married couples
and found that when the husband reports feeling close to
(20:57):
his in laws, the marriage is more likely to last
a law in hall, which is that's good, that's a positive.
They found that the risk of divorce over the next
sixteen years was lower than for the group overall, but
the kink and the whole plan comes and that it's
opposite for the wife. When the wife reported being close
to the in laws, the risk of divorce rose. Yeah,
(21:19):
and Orbach thinks that that has to do with, Uh,
the wife being closer to the in law parents increases
her sensitivity to their opinions on how they're living, how
they're raising their kids and all all of that. Yeah,
she's not doing the boundary setting and so over time,
(21:40):
Well it might be great at first, like, oh, she
wants to help out, or she's given me a piece
of advice or whatever. Eventually she might see that as meddling, right,
and I mean and and and The thing about the
the healthy relationship between the son in law and as
partners parents also makes a lot of sense because one
major complaint of people who report having a negative relationship
(22:04):
with an in law is that their partner, those people's
you know, son or daughter don't do anything to to
mediate or validate the tension or anxiety that they're feeling
about the flak that they might be getting from an
in law. So so it really, I mean, it seems
like there's, uh, it's a support issue that needs to
(22:27):
be taken into account. But a son in law finding
also reminds me of the show Modern Family, just the
thought that one final TV reference, because I really like
how instead of harping on the mother in law trope,
they put all the emphasis on the husband Phil trying
to court his wife's father's affections, and it's it's great,
(22:50):
it's very charming and cute. So if you are a
daughter in law currently dealing with mother in law issues,
there's a bajillion points of advice out there. Um we
just kind of cold cold the high points out there.
You want to address problems directly, because in any relationship
(23:10):
in life, it's not good to stew over things, but
in a mother in law daughter in law relationship in particular,
I mean, you're going to be stuck with this person
for a long time, So it's best that maybe as
a couple that might be helpful to you sit down
with your in laws and just maybe explain expectations, or
if things are already getting to a boiling point, just
(23:32):
sit her down and let her know that, you know, like,
for instance, if housekeeping isn't your priority, just let her know.
Because my my friend, for instance, she doesn't have so
much of a mother in law problem as she has
a grandmother in law problem. The grandmother like at the wedding,
was like, so you're gonna be cooking for my grandson
every night? Right, Jessica was just like, I don't cook.
(23:54):
I buy things. So there was already like that pressure
on her to do the cooking and the cleaning from
the AMA, and so she just had to tell her like, look, lady,
housekeeping cooking, it's not my thing. Also, you know, feel
free to let her not feel free, like gently let
her know that you don't really appreciate being judged and
that's how you feel. You know, remember all the talk
(24:15):
and advice about making about your feelings, not what they're doing.
You just want to try to to set boundaries in
a non confrontational way so that your whole relationship doesn't
just blow up. Well, and I think that all this
advice also needs to be directed to to the communication
between partners of if there is a troublesome because a
lot of times you're gonna know if you have a
(24:38):
parent who might not oh might make it challenging in law. Okay,
And those are conversations that also need to be had, uh,
you know, in in private so that that person can
step up to bat for you if you need some
help setting boundaries. Um. And now flipping the script a
little bit for mothers in law. I mean the big
(24:59):
thing over and over again that a lot of these
articles that we found side was stop assuming that anybody
wants your advice. Yeah. I mean, yes, you have more
life experience than either your son or daughter in law
or whoever. Uh, but they don't always want to hear it.
I mean, they're not your child, so they don't really
(25:22):
have that feeling of like I want to learn from you,
you know necessarily, and so um, try try to maybe
maybe rain that in a little if possible. Um. And
I thought this was kind of cute. Over at a
r P uh, they had an article also advising mothers
in law and how to how to maintain a harmonious relationship.
(25:45):
In one of their pieces of advice was stay out
of the bedroom. Don't ever ask where are you going
to make me a grandma? Which I think that's a
that's a good way. Essentially, it's like keep the pressure off,
allow allow the couple to live their lives, to be
there if they need them. And also for you know,
people in the you know, the newly wed relationship. Also
(26:08):
if if you sense that vulnerability or jealousy from a parent,
maybe the son or daughter needs to step into reassure
them that their relationship isn't the parent child relationship is
still going to be intact, you know, but there's there's
just a new person to incorporate. Yeah, there's a good thing. Yeah, well,
(26:28):
a lot of advice out there does say that, like
if it's the sons, if it's the husband's parents who
are causing the issues, the husband needs to be the
messenger and vice versa. If it's the wife's parents causing issues, Like,
if the wife's parents are causing issues, it shouldn't be
the husband going to them and being like, you know,
one on one year, you're upsetting me. It should be
sort of a group therapy type of situation and when
(26:50):
in doubt, take a tip from Italy and move as
far away as possible. Put lots of football fields between you. Yeah,
I mean there's Skype. That's all I really need these days.
So now, I mean, especially as as two gals, sands
mothers in law at this point, I want to hear
(27:10):
from people out there. I know that there are mothers
in law listening. I know their daughters in law listening,
sons in law. I want to hear from all of
you about in law relationships mothers in law. Do you
do you think that the stereotype is true or do
you think that it is way overblown that you are
the monster in law? Thing needs to die as quickly
(27:32):
as possible. Um, people who have dealt with in laws, Uh,
you have fantastic relationships? Is that you dread having to
go over to their houses for the holidays. Let us
know all of your in law tales, mom stuff at
Discovery dot com is where you can email them or
you can't hit us up on Facebook as well, and
(27:56):
now our letters Wholariety. This is an email from Austin
about our friend Zone episode. He said that he wanted
to add another perspective. Uh. He conducted research on the
topic when working on the Single Guys Guide to Relationships
(28:16):
and says I was shocked not hear you talk about
same sex friend zones. You did mention that someone would
should accept it if they are interested in a friend
who does not share their sexual preference. The friend zone
being friends with someone were only one of the two
parties has a sexual attraction to each other, does exist
in same sex friends both sharing the same sexual preference.
(28:38):
For example, two gay male friends where one is attracted
to the other. Why do I bring this up? A
lot of focused was placed on the feminist movement leading
to male and female non sexual friendships. I pose that
although the term friend zone was a nineties sitcom created term,
the reason why it's spread in popularity was its clear
connection to the populace people relate to this term. Whatever
(29:02):
it is labeled, the friend zone exists in many forms
and there are simple ways to deal with it. Despite
this long message, this is not a complaint, more so
a bit of curiosity on my part, So thank you
for expressing your curiosity often. Yeah, and I think we
we did acknowledge the same sex friendship thing, but again,
it was a. It's a problem that comes up so
(29:23):
often where the research is so it's just not their
friend zone, it is uber hetero focus. Um. Well, I've
got one here, also on the friend zone. And this
is from Amy, and she writes, Dr Heidi reader from
Boise State University was one of your sources and was
my professor eight years ago for intro to communication. Um.
(29:45):
Her class was where I met my boyfriend slash best
friend slash frustrated object of affection. She gives his real name,
I'm going to call him Tommy. He also happened to
be a good friend of a close high school friend,
so Tommy and I hung out a few times in
I dated his roommate for a while. When it didn't
work out with him, Tommy was there to comfort me
with that. Romantic thoughts entered my head, but I still
(30:07):
hung out in the friend zone until one night when
we were alone and he went in for a kiss.
Our romantic relationship had a lot of ups and downs
since then, including a marriage proposal that I assumed was
a joke because we were always more friends and lovers
despite my desire for more. Several times he talked to
me through our own breakup We always lived together until
this summer, when we both moved back to our hometowns,
(30:29):
which happened to be three hours apart. Since then, we've
spoken pretty rarely, sent a dozen texts a week, and
only spent one weekend together. He always says he's sorry
that he's so busy, which I know is true, but
I think he could do more than ten minutes or
so a week. I think he's put me back in
the friend zone, finding it easier than breaking it off
totally with me, and it's just assumed that I will
still be there for him when he decides he wants
(30:51):
to date again. I've decided that I deserved better and
have decided to cut him out of my life. But
this is very painful and lonely. He was my most
intimate and constant companion for seven and a half years,
and sometimes I feel like I'm cutting off my nose
despite my face. What do you think. I think that
you're making the right decision, Amy, because I think that
(31:13):
you shouldn't have to linger in the friend zone wondering
what Tommy wants when clearly you stated before that you
wanted more, to the point that you considered a marriage proposal.
A joke. Obviously, you don't the foundational trust that he
does love you as much as you might love him.
It doesn't seem like it's there. And I think in
(31:35):
those kind of situations it's best to slog through the pain,
the loneliness because you're going to find something better at
the end of it. Yeah. Well, we talked about in
that episode, um, the issue of people men or women
keeping people around kind of manipulating them, and how that's
(31:56):
completely unhealthy for everybody involved. And so even though it,
you know, hurts so much to to cut loose this
person that was in your life for so long, um,
it's you're just making room once you heal from that,
you're just making room for for something healthier. And I
think the friend zone also is a different territory when
(32:18):
it's post breakup. If you feel like your friend zoned
after a breakup, it does that that sounds more like
someone just keeping you on the line just in case,
and that's not fair, you know, So treat treat yourself well, Amy,
and be gentle with yourself and move on, you know.
(32:40):
And I'm sure Tommy would probably come back, because Tommy's
usually come back life experience talking so that's all we've
got for you. Mom. Stuff at Discovery dot com is
where you can send your emails. You can find us
on Facebook and like is there, follow us on Twitter
at moms Stuff Podcasts, and you can tumble with us
as well at stuff Mom Never Told You dot tumbler
(33:04):
dot com. And if you'd like to get a little
bit smarter this week, you can head over to our website,
it's how stuff works dot com for more on this
and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff works
dot com.
Welcome to stuff Mom Never told You. From how Stuff
Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm
Kristen and I'm Caroline. And this episode comes from a
listener request and it was a great one. And she
(00:23):
as she asked on Facebook, what's up with the mother
in law stereotype? By mother in law, I mean monster
in law that mothers in law are make life living
hell for especially the daughters in law, like whoever their
son marries or they they're just meddlesome. They pop over
(00:46):
whenever they want and really life would be better without them. Marie,
that's that's from Everybody Loves Rainon. Oh yeah, stereotypical awful
mother in law. Yeah, t he loves a good obnoxious
in law. TV tropes dot Org that we've signed a
number of times refers to this as the obnoxious in laws.
(01:08):
A happily married couple of faces various problems, but none
quite like the sitcom in law. A member of one
couple's family, Often the wife says an obnoxious animosity towards
their relative spouse. They hate the person their daughter, sister, son,
brother is married to and aren't shy about reaffirming it.
And I feel like among the obnoxious in laws. The
(01:29):
mother in law takes the cake, maybe because of Everybody
Loves Raymond. Doris Roberts plays Marie Barone, and I make
a point to not watch Everybody Loves Raymond. No offense
to yell our fans out there, But if she's one
of the reasons I wouldn't. I don't think I could
(01:50):
sit through an entire episode. Yeah, it's just she's like,
you're not eating enough. What are they feeding you? Yeah? Now,
I have to say that when my parents watched that show,
my mother just looks at my father and it's like,
do you see that? Do you? Does that look familiar?
Chad Well. So other pop culture examples are Bewitched for
(02:12):
Bewitched fans and Dora Samantha's mom comes over and always
is always like putting her nose in their witchy business meet.
The parents built an entire franchise around Cookie in law,
so that was more focused on the dangerous father in law. Yeah. Um.
And then there is Jane fund At, Jane Fonda, why
why did you? Why did you make the movie Monster
(02:35):
in Law co starring Jennifer Lopez and that guy with
the hair. I don't know. I don't know which guy.
I don't know either, um, but maybe I mean these
the fact that the stereotype exists, it's not completely baseless
because historically there have been some pretty infamous mothers in law.
(02:57):
By infamous, you mean great. So you guys remember FDR Right,
that president at that time. Yeah, he was recently played
by Bill Murray. Yeah, that's right, that's right. I'm looking
forward to that. I'm I think I think I am
his mother. Sarah Delano Roosevelt actually took him on a
(03:17):
cruise to dissuade him from marrying his distant cousin Eleanor.
She lost that battle, um, and as a wedding present.
So okay. One of the big things about mothers in
law is that daughters in law often think that they're
like putting their nose into their business. She actually built
them a house and completely furnished it herself and was like, here,
you go, make this your kingdom. So that that's a
(03:40):
that's a pretty big like nose sticking into I think
my favorite, though, is Madge Gates Wallace, whose daughter Best
married Harry Truman. So the whole time that that Harry
is is courting Best, Madge is just not having it.
She's like, I don't approve of you. You're no good
you're not educated, and if you're not good enough. Um.
(04:02):
She actually looked after them as newlyweds because they couldn't
afford their own house, and even after they got to
the White House, she still belittled her son in law constantly,
even when she moved into the White House with them. Yeah,
she actually favored Thomas Dewey to win the election by
(04:22):
a landslide, and Truman was like, come on, mom, masag
didn't care. Um now over. In the Telegraph, Lisa Dillner
cites Queen Victoria as having um a rocky relationship with
her daughters in law. One of them, Alex was not
allowed to breastfeed because old Vics did. Was not into that.
(04:45):
She didn't like that idea. Margaret Thatcher, also the Iron Lady,
was said to be a formidable mother in law um,
having invested far too much in her son according to
her son's now at X wife. But apparently that was
a major source of attention in their marriage. Was Margaret
Thatcher always or maybe Meryl Streep, always coming over to
(05:09):
the house and announce, who do I have to marry to?
Get Meryl Street to come hang out with me. No. Uh.
And then for a real life example, I found this
over at a Slate's advice column, Asked Prudence. A woman
wrote in frantically asking for advice because she was worried
that her mother in law was attempting to poison her
food because anytime they would have like a weekly meal
(05:31):
over at her husband's parents house. And she swears up
and down that every time she would become violently ill
with food poisoning, but her husband would be fine. But
the problem was the husband would kind of like kind
of laugh it off and think that she was sort
of overreacting, whereas she really thought that the mother in
law was out to kill her. And then also in
(05:54):
my research I found this uh random, very random Russian
joke point out like how this is kind of a
a global stereotype and it goes something like this, children
of the Flowers of life. Wife's mother is a cactus
of death. Cactus of death. I'm getting that tattoo. That's
(06:15):
gonna be my first tattoo. Well, I think one thing, um,
and we'll get into this more is you have to
consider the time period when this uh the stereotype was rampant.
Especially Luisa Dilner at The Telegraph points this out that
mother in law jokes in the UK at least were
on every comedy stage in the mid twentieth century because
(06:38):
at the time a lot of young married couples would
initially live with parents before they could afford their own
place and move out on their own. So you know,
understandably some tensions might arise. Can you imagine, like you
can't go anywhere, you just have to live with her.
(06:58):
You just got to do it day. Well, my my
mother also is very um. She likes to consider herself
a very good mother in law and wants to avoid
the stereotypes so much so that she refers to her
daughters in law as her daughters in love. Just I
think Disney birds just flew around the studio. They're just
(07:19):
my daughters in love outside daughters in law. Um. But
surveys also indicate that the acrimony is is very apparent
in the mother in law and especially if mother in
law to daughter in law, there's something about that relationship.
So read Book magazine reported on a survey showing that
(07:41):
mothers in law are kind of kind of like my mom,
bless her heart like to think that they are very
easy going on their daughters in law, that they're not,
you know, they're they're not the Doris Roberts on Everybody
Loves Raymond. Sixty percent would describe their daughter in law
as a daughter, friend, or the right woman for the
a son. Only ten percent referred to the daughter in
(08:02):
law as the enemy um and thought that they were
just okay or marginally disliked her. But still a majority
of them liked overall like the daughter in law. Although
and this is where I think a root of a
lot of attention comes in. Six copped to giving unsolicited
(08:25):
advice to the daughter in law. Yeah actually, well, forty
one point four percent of mothers in law surveys said
that their daughters in law never follow their advice that
they offered, and I just picture them like filling in
that bubble with an eye roll and a heavy sigh,
like never um. They they liked their daughters in law
(08:47):
in general, fifty three point nine percent said very much,
seven said she's okay, Yeah, she's she's okay, and nine
point one percent said not not at all. But there
seems to be more just pleasure when it comes to
the daughter in law evaluating the mother in law. Yeah,
as we'll get into a little bit when we talk
about advice and what to do with your pesky mother
(09:09):
and or daughter in law. I don't know whether it
would be and or anyway, daughters in law are sort
of primed to be a little sensitive and think that
the mother in law is meddling. So this Village study
found that, according to its users, fifty one percent of
daughters in law would rather stay home and clean than
(09:29):
have to listen to their mothers in law. So let's
talk about what women would rather do than go hang
out with the monster in law. Would rather visit a gynecologist.
Now that involves a speculum. I like my doctor. I
like my doctor too, But they would rather get intimate
with a speculum then go hang out with their mother
in law. Point, would rather do jury duty, would prefer
(09:54):
to do their taxes or get a root canal. That's
that's intense. And seventy six seventy six per cent said
they would never seek parenting advice from a mother in law.
It's just going around in my head now, um, and yeah,
I mean we were putting on something. A survey from
Red Book a survey from eye village, and that might
(10:17):
not seem like the most scholarly sources, but studies into
in law relationships have not only highlighted this tension, particularly
with the daughters in law and mothers in law, but
also highlighted, unfortunately again the mother in law as above
(10:37):
and beyond generally the most troublesome in law. And this
is also a cross cultural pattern. There was a ninety
nine study comparing attitudes among families in the US, Kuwait, Egypt,
and Sedan, and all of them finger pointed to the
mother in law. Mama's just love their babies, their sons,
(11:00):
they do, they do, and and they love their daughters.
I mean this can go obviously like different ways. Um So,
because of this stereotype and because survey data continues to
point out that this problematic relationship, Cambridge University psychologist Terry
Apter looked into it a little bit deeper to try
(11:22):
to get to the bottom of what's going on, and
she wrote a book about it called What Do You
Want from Me? Learning to Get Along Within Laws? And
she actually found some pretty some pretty telling patterns about
what's going on a lot of times. Yeah, she said
that it's generally a clash of expectations and assumptions, thing
that the things that the mother in law assume are
(11:43):
going to happen, things that the daughter in law is
worried will happen. And she said that of women describe
the mother and daughter in law relationship as strained, infuriating,
and simply awful, whereas only fifteen percent of men complained
about their mother in law. Yeah, and she attributes this
to an issue of vulnerability. Um because two thirds of
(12:07):
women said they felt that their mothers in law were
jealous of their relationships with sons, while two thirds of
mothers in law said they felt excluded by their son's wives.
And meanwhile, the son is apparently just kicking up his
feet and of an abruski or something like this. Also,
we should also point out that almost all of this
(12:28):
research is exclusively dealing with heterosexual married couples. Um and
uh After also cites some other studies, such as one
that came out of Japan in two thousand and eight
and it was published in the journal Heart, which found
that women living in multigenerational households were two to three
(12:50):
times more likely to experience to experience coronary heart surgery
than women living with just their spouse, and there is
something about proximity that seems to increase that tension, at
least according to results from an Italian study. This is
my favorite, my favorite study maybe ever. Uh. This is
(13:10):
a National Statistics Institute study of Italian families. They found
that the odds that a marriage will last increase with
every one hundred yards couples placed between them and they're
in laws, to the point where Italian courts even ruled
that a wife has the right to a legal separation
if her husband is not effective in preventing his mother
(13:32):
from quote unquote invading their home. So that's pretty intense.
So essentially, if you want to avoid this conflict, just
move live far away. Yeah, because well that also sort
of removes a lot of the sticky factor, like the
awkwardness of like, please don't just drop by my house,
Please don't take over the raising of my children. Well,
(13:54):
and and the thing is too once when it's just
a couple, you know, it's it's much easier to manage
those relationships. But as After points out, kids are often
the tipping point, especially with that mother daughter dynamic. And
this was reported on um in Time magazine she found
(14:16):
that in all ethnic cultures included in her research and
across generations, child rearing was one of the most constant
and stressful sources of conflict between daughters in law and
mothers in law. And that ties in uh, perhaps issues
of vulnerability, issues of unsolicited advice of the mother in law,
you know, stepping into maybe trying to discipline a child
(14:38):
when that might be out of bounds. Uh So, so
kids can understand, understandably complicate things. And there was a
paper that I found by Mary Claire more Seroics called
Getting Along with in in Laws, which was essentially a
meta analysis a lot on a lot of literature published
on in law relationships. And she points out that these
(15:00):
are odd relationships to begin with, the whole in law thing,
and they are described in very academic terms as triatic
and non voluntary, which essentially means you were asking for
tension like no one you know you you can't pick
your parents in law and uh and and parents can't
(15:22):
pick their their daughters and sons in law. And so
while that doesn't doom all of them to be terrible,
it does predict maybe some some bumps here and there. Yeah,
I mean, particularly if you're coming from different backgrounds and
just totally different cultures and and or just simply your
your family did things differently. And plus you're building your
(15:43):
own family, whether you're having babies or puppies or kiddies
or whatever you're having, Like, the way that you do
things in your household is bound to be taking from
both of your backgrounds. And so one side or the
other side might think, well, that that's just not that's
not how I did it right and um, and that's
a good point because sometimes the parents in laws might perceive, uh,
(16:08):
lifestyles that are different from theirs, or child ruting tactics
that are different from from theirs as negative judgments on
how they raised their kids. Um, so that's something that
can also come up. And I can understand. I obviously
I do not have a mother in law at this point,
but having met boyfriends mother's it's always a nerve racking experience.
(16:31):
The first time, it takes me a long time to dress.
I consider my outfit carefully. You know, you want to
present the best possible side of yourself because you know
you you don't you want to create a harmonious relationship
with your partner's parents. If at all possible. There was
there was one relationship in college. I I don't think
(16:51):
he listens to the podcast because they could get awkward.
But there was one relationship in college where I met
his mother, and of course I was nervous going into
You're always nervous. She was so nice and so gracious,
and then I felt so bad when I broke up
with her son because she was already like, you know,
buying me things and giving me Christmas presents. Did she
(17:14):
ask you to call her mom? No? No, it didn't
get that far, but she did, Like I don't know.
I was at her house one time and I made
a comment about how nice all of her like cookware was.
I think she had like some fancy brand. It was
really nice. And she was like, well, you know, I
I hope one day to pass it down. And I
was just like, oh god, I'm in college, I'm twenty
(17:35):
years old, please. So so there is it is on
the there's a whole spectrum of in law type relationships well,
and funnily enough, the mother in law the daughter in law.
Attention has even been in Science e News in recent
months because there is a suggestion that this tension has
(17:58):
been around for are a long long time and might
be the evolutionary explanation for menopause, because what is it, Humans,
killer whales, and only a few other species actually go
through experience menopause for the for the females. So scientists
(18:20):
are still trying to figure out why why do we
have why do we have menopause? And then why do
women live a lot longer beyond that? Because evolutionarily, once
you're done being able to procreate, your useless, so die,
let's get out of here. Yeah, there's a finished study
that was published in the journal Ecology Letters in August.
(18:44):
They looked at and this is I think this is
really interesting because I'm a total genealogy nerd. They looked
at church birth, marriage, and death records from seventeen o
two to nineteen o eight and found that the chances
of children dying increased when mothers in law and daughters
in law gave birth around the same time, but it
(19:04):
was not true if mothers and daughters had children at
the same time, so children of older women uh. In
this in the mother in law daughter in law dynamic
children of older women UH, their survival rate dropped by
fifty children of the daughter in law, uh survival rate
dropped sixty six percent, And so why why is this happening?
(19:27):
And they think that perhaps in laws fought over food
for their children instead of cooperating as mothers and daughters
might Rayman again, no lasagna for those twins. Yeah, and
as to the this is more of a side note.
But as to the rational behind, why are the hypothesis
behind why women do live past menopause? Why we have grandmothers?
(19:51):
Essentially is uh the so called grand grandmother hypothesis claiming that, um,
they're useful. Grandmothers are very useful because they are an
additional resource to help with child rearing. And since they
can't have kids anymore than they competition. There's no competition,
they can allocate their resources. But unfortunately, allocating those resources
(20:14):
sometimes causes friction with the in laws. But we've talked
so much about uh, daughters in law and mothers in
law and yeah, and the father in law too, Like
it's clearly getting a pass, even though I'm sure he
can be troublesome sometimes too. But there is a chance,
(20:34):
according to one recent study, that maybe the son in
law is the key to everything. Yeah, Terry or bach Uh,
who's a psychologist and research professor at University of Michigan
did a twenty six year longitudinal study of married couples
and found that when the husband reports feeling close to
(20:57):
his in laws, the marriage is more likely to last
a law in hall, which is that's good, that's a positive.
They found that the risk of divorce over the next
sixteen years was lower than for the group overall, but
the kink and the whole plan comes and that it's
opposite for the wife. When the wife reported being close
to the in laws, the risk of divorce rose. Yeah,
(21:19):
and Orbach thinks that that has to do with, Uh,
the wife being closer to the in law parents increases
her sensitivity to their opinions on how they're living, how
they're raising their kids and all all of that. Yeah,
she's not doing the boundary setting and so over time,
(21:40):
Well it might be great at first, like, oh, she
wants to help out, or she's given me a piece
of advice or whatever. Eventually she might see that as meddling, right,
and I mean and and and The thing about the
the healthy relationship between the son in law and as
partners parents also makes a lot of sense because one
major complaint of people who report having a negative relationship
(22:04):
with an in law is that their partner, those people's
you know, son or daughter don't do anything to to
mediate or validate the tension or anxiety that they're feeling
about the flak that they might be getting from an
in law. So so it really, I mean, it seems
like there's, uh, it's a support issue that needs to
(22:27):
be taken into account. But a son in law finding
also reminds me of the show Modern Family, just the
thought that one final TV reference, because I really like
how instead of harping on the mother in law trope,
they put all the emphasis on the husband Phil trying
to court his wife's father's affections, and it's it's great,
(22:50):
it's very charming and cute. So if you are a
daughter in law currently dealing with mother in law issues,
there's a bajillion points of advice out there. Um we
just kind of cold cold the high points out there.
You want to address problems directly, because in any relationship
(23:10):
in life, it's not good to stew over things, but
in a mother in law daughter in law relationship in particular,
I mean, you're going to be stuck with this person
for a long time, So it's best that maybe as
a couple that might be helpful to you sit down
with your in laws and just maybe explain expectations, or
if things are already getting to a boiling point, just
(23:32):
sit her down and let her know that, you know, like,
for instance, if housekeeping isn't your priority, just let her know.
Because my my friend, for instance, she doesn't have so
much of a mother in law problem as she has
a grandmother in law problem. The grandmother like at the wedding,
was like, so you're gonna be cooking for my grandson
every night? Right, Jessica was just like, I don't cook.
(23:54):
I buy things. So there was already like that pressure
on her to do the cooking and the cleaning from
the AMA, and so she just had to tell her like, look, lady,
housekeeping cooking, it's not my thing. Also, you know, feel
free to let her not feel free, like gently let
her know that you don't really appreciate being judged and
that's how you feel. You know, remember all the talk
(24:15):
and advice about making about your feelings, not what they're doing.
You just want to try to to set boundaries in
a non confrontational way so that your whole relationship doesn't
just blow up. Well, and I think that all this
advice also needs to be directed to to the communication
between partners of if there is a troublesome because a
lot of times you're gonna know if you have a
(24:38):
parent who might not oh might make it challenging in law. Okay,
And those are conversations that also need to be had, uh,
you know, in in private so that that person can
step up to bat for you if you need some
help setting boundaries. Um. And now flipping the script a
little bit for mothers in law. I mean the big
(24:59):
thing over and over again that a lot of these
articles that we found side was stop assuming that anybody
wants your advice. Yeah. I mean, yes, you have more
life experience than either your son or daughter in law
or whoever. Uh, but they don't always want to hear it.
I mean, they're not your child, so they don't really
(25:22):
have that feeling of like I want to learn from you,
you know necessarily, and so um, try try to maybe
maybe rain that in a little if possible. Um. And
I thought this was kind of cute. Over at a
r P uh, they had an article also advising mothers
in law and how to how to maintain a harmonious relationship.
(25:45):
In one of their pieces of advice was stay out
of the bedroom. Don't ever ask where are you going
to make me a grandma? Which I think that's a
that's a good way. Essentially, it's like keep the pressure off,
allow allow the couple to live their lives, to be
there if they need them. And also for you know,
people in the you know, the newly wed relationship. Also
(26:08):
if if you sense that vulnerability or jealousy from a parent,
maybe the son or daughter needs to step into reassure
them that their relationship isn't the parent child relationship is
still going to be intact, you know, but there's there's
just a new person to incorporate. Yeah, there's a good thing. Yeah, well,
(26:28):
a lot of advice out there does say that, like
if it's the sons, if it's the husband's parents who
are causing the issues, the husband needs to be the
messenger and vice versa. If it's the wife's parents causing issues, Like,
if the wife's parents are causing issues, it shouldn't be
the husband going to them and being like, you know,
one on one year, you're upsetting me. It should be
sort of a group therapy type of situation and when
(26:50):
in doubt, take a tip from Italy and move as
far away as possible. Put lots of football fields between you. Yeah,
I mean there's Skype. That's all I really need these days.
So now, I mean, especially as as two gals, sands
mothers in law at this point, I want to hear
(27:10):
from people out there. I know that there are mothers
in law listening. I know their daughters in law listening,
sons in law. I want to hear from all of
you about in law relationships mothers in law. Do you
do you think that the stereotype is true or do
you think that it is way overblown that you are
the monster in law? Thing needs to die as quickly
(27:32):
as possible. Um, people who have dealt with in laws, Uh,
you have fantastic relationships? Is that you dread having to
go over to their houses for the holidays. Let us
know all of your in law tales, mom stuff at
Discovery dot com is where you can email them or
you can't hit us up on Facebook as well, and
(27:56):
now our letters Wholariety. This is an email from Austin
about our friend Zone episode. He said that he wanted
to add another perspective. Uh. He conducted research on the
topic when working on the Single Guys Guide to Relationships
(28:16):
and says I was shocked not hear you talk about
same sex friend zones. You did mention that someone would
should accept it if they are interested in a friend
who does not share their sexual preference. The friend zone
being friends with someone were only one of the two
parties has a sexual attraction to each other, does exist
in same sex friends both sharing the same sexual preference.
(28:38):
For example, two gay male friends where one is attracted
to the other. Why do I bring this up? A
lot of focused was placed on the feminist movement leading
to male and female non sexual friendships. I pose that
although the term friend zone was a nineties sitcom created term,
the reason why it's spread in popularity was its clear
connection to the populace people relate to this term. Whatever
(29:02):
it is labeled, the friend zone exists in many forms
and there are simple ways to deal with it. Despite
this long message, this is not a complaint, more so
a bit of curiosity on my part, So thank you
for expressing your curiosity often. Yeah, and I think we
we did acknowledge the same sex friendship thing, but again,
it was a. It's a problem that comes up so
(29:23):
often where the research is so it's just not their
friend zone, it is uber hetero focus. Um. Well, I've
got one here, also on the friend zone. And this
is from Amy, and she writes, Dr Heidi reader from
Boise State University was one of your sources and was
my professor eight years ago for intro to communication. Um.
(29:45):
Her class was where I met my boyfriend slash best
friend slash frustrated object of affection. She gives his real name,
I'm going to call him Tommy. He also happened to
be a good friend of a close high school friend,
so Tommy and I hung out a few times in
I dated his roommate for a while. When it didn't
work out with him, Tommy was there to comfort me
with that. Romantic thoughts entered my head, but I still
(30:07):
hung out in the friend zone until one night when
we were alone and he went in for a kiss.
Our romantic relationship had a lot of ups and downs
since then, including a marriage proposal that I assumed was
a joke because we were always more friends and lovers
despite my desire for more. Several times he talked to
me through our own breakup We always lived together until
this summer, when we both moved back to our hometowns,
(30:29):
which happened to be three hours apart. Since then, we've
spoken pretty rarely, sent a dozen texts a week, and
only spent one weekend together. He always says he's sorry
that he's so busy, which I know is true, but
I think he could do more than ten minutes or
so a week. I think he's put me back in
the friend zone, finding it easier than breaking it off
totally with me, and it's just assumed that I will
still be there for him when he decides he wants
(30:51):
to date again. I've decided that I deserved better and
have decided to cut him out of my life. But
this is very painful and lonely. He was my most
intimate and constant companion for seven and a half years,
and sometimes I feel like I'm cutting off my nose
despite my face. What do you think. I think that
you're making the right decision, Amy, because I think that
(31:13):
you shouldn't have to linger in the friend zone wondering
what Tommy wants when clearly you stated before that you
wanted more, to the point that you considered a marriage proposal.
A joke. Obviously, you don't the foundational trust that he
does love you as much as you might love him.
It doesn't seem like it's there. And I think in
(31:35):
those kind of situations it's best to slog through the pain,
the loneliness because you're going to find something better at
the end of it. Yeah. Well, we talked about in
that episode, um, the issue of people men or women
keeping people around kind of manipulating them, and how that's
(31:56):
completely unhealthy for everybody involved. And so even though it,
you know, hurts so much to to cut loose this
person that was in your life for so long, um,
it's you're just making room once you heal from that,
you're just making room for for something healthier. And I
think the friend zone also is a different territory when
(32:18):
it's post breakup. If you feel like your friend zoned
after a breakup, it does that that sounds more like
someone just keeping you on the line just in case,
and that's not fair, you know, So treat treat yourself well, Amy,
and be gentle with yourself and move on, you know.
(32:40):
And I'm sure Tommy would probably come back, because Tommy's
usually come back life experience talking so that's all we've
got for you. Mom. Stuff at Discovery dot com is
where you can send your emails. You can find us
on Facebook and like is there, follow us on Twitter
at moms Stuff Podcasts, and you can tumble with us
as well at stuff Mom Never Told You dot tumbler
(33:04):
dot com. And if you'd like to get a little
bit smarter this week, you can head over to our website,
it's how stuff works dot com for more on this
and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff works
dot com.
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