August 1, 2016 • 48 mins
For 50 years, the National Organization for Women (NOW) has been championed feminist initiatives and gender equalizing political policy. But much of its early developments and intersectionality have been oversimplified by the media and overshadowed by Betty Friedan's controversial legacy. Cristen and Caroline talk to NOW president Terry O'Neill about past pitfalls and immediate progress that got the organization and Women's Liberation marching toward the glass ceiling.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how Stop
Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm
Kristen and I'm Caroline. And we've talked about the National
Organization for Women so many times on Stuff Mom Never
(00:23):
Told You pretty much any time we get into second
wave feminism, there's NOW, which is an acronym for the
National Organization for Women. There's now, by the way, Yeah,
it's not that kristin syntax just completely broke down. There's now.
What does that even mean? Yeah, And we we obviously
talked about now in our episode on Polly Murray because
(00:47):
she was one of the main leading figures helping to
found that organization. But we also talked about now in
our episode on the Lavender Menace and the schism within
the National Organization for Women instigated by Betty for Dan
referring to lesbians within the organization as a quote unquote
(01:10):
lavender menace that she was scared of. Well, I mean,
it honestly sounds just so well scented, you know, lavender,
it's soothing, it's beautiful to look out over a field
of lavender. Doesn't sound menacing at all exactly, which makes
it worse, I know, well, at one source that I
was reading about it to m describes her paranoia of
(01:32):
lesbians within the organization, particularly radical feminist lesbians in the organization,
as a product of McCarthy era paranoia and borrowing some
of that same language. But I don't want to get
to you ahead of our conversation that we have today
with current NOW president Terry O'Neill, who we were so
(01:57):
excited to talk to, because mean, this really is a
cornerstone organization of the feminist movement, well for sure, and Kristin,
you spoke with her shortly before you and I traveled
to Now's fiftieth anniversary celebration in Washington, d C. And
I just want to go ahead and say that when
I met Terry with you in person, um, but talking
(02:21):
to her was so exciting because I feel like in
our day to day life, you know, we tell people
what we do, oh, you know, we are feminists, we
have a feminist podcast, and everybody thinks, oh, that's very good,
good for you. But to be in a room with
all of these hardcore, amazing feminist trailblazers and then to
talk to Terry and she was clearly so passionate about
(02:43):
everything that Now has done and is doing and is
planning to do in the future. And it was such
a great moment. And I mean, this woman was pumping
her fist. I was so excited to talk to her.
And in addition to her just having a warm personality,
she is a wealth of knowledge and experience because Terry
(03:04):
sits at this really interesting moment in Now's history, you know,
as the president going into its fiftieth year, which is huge,
but also when she got involved with the organization, it
had been around for a little bit, you know, she
wasn't one of the founding members, and her entry into
(03:29):
feminist activism and working with the National Organization for Women
is really reflective of how quickly NOW developed it's multi
platform agenda that she's going to talk about because it's
something that we probably don't commonly know right well exactly,
(03:51):
And and what Kristen's referring to is going back to
that whole generational gap, the schism that happened not only
at the founding of NOW between women like Betty for
Dan who were not so keen on having the radical
lesbian feminists in their group, but also today the schism
(04:12):
that exists between millennial feminists and second way feminists because we,
as younger feminists, stereotypically we tend to think of now
as just this upper crest, middle class, white woman's working organization,
you know, almost like the original lean in that wasn't
there as a voice for women of color, for lesbian women,
(04:36):
that they weren't inclusive at all. But that's pretty far
from the truth. But then on the flip side of that,
you have these original members of the National Organization for
Women who look at millennial feminists who are active in
such different kinds of ways, um and our skeptical of
(05:00):
our commitment, you know, and our you know, question whether
we take a lot of their work for granted and understandably.
And then you have on the other side of that gap,
some of the original second wave feminist activists looking at
millennial feminists today with a little bit of skepticism or
(05:24):
a lot of bit of skepticism, because our forms of
protests and activism in a lot of ways are radically
different from what was happening in the sixth season, especially
the seventies. And I think it's easy to dismiss no
matter who you are or how old you are. I
think it's very easy to dismiss hashtag activism or online
community building, um, if you don't look deeper into what's
(05:47):
going on, if you just brush people off as oh, well,
they're just on their phones, um, because it doesn't look
the same as picketing or marching. But what we're seeing,
especially now in this very contentious political climate that we're
in today, we are seeing more and more young people
taking that online community building that they've been working at
for so long literally to the streets to protest things
(06:11):
like police violence. Here in Atlanta, we had ten thousand
people and so many young people marching for those rights.
And that included not only the rights of black people
to be safe in this country, but also I mean
women in this community as well to be able to
come together and protest. And parallel to that is this
(06:34):
uncovering of women's history that a lot of millennial feminists
are really interested in. I mean just thinking about the
kinds of articles that we share on social media about oh,
here's the first woman who did this, here's the first
woman who did that. Here all these trailblazers we didn't
know about. Um. And that also goes to filling in
this you know, not so distant history of what was
(06:58):
actually happening on the ground owned when the women's liberation
movement really got going in the nineteen seventies, because I
think it's really important for us to have a better
understanding of all of the intersections at that time to
inform our intersectionality today, because it is very shortsighted of
(07:19):
us to sit here in s and presume that now
is nothing more than a relic of a bygone and
more narrow minded era, because that's not the truth at all. So,
I mean, that's one one reason why I'm really excited
to share this conversation with Terry O'Neill as we Caroline
(07:41):
and I offer a closer look at the that original founding,
the first you know, five six years of the National
Organization for Women. So just to prepare you, dear listeners,
we are going to be going back and forth earth
from our chat with Terry O'Neill to this mini history
(08:05):
that Caroline and I will be doing here in the studio.
But follow along please because I really, I really take
notes to take all the notes you want. Actually you
don't have to, because all the notes will be over
at stuff Mom've never told you dot com for your
reading convenience. UM, but I really do believe that this
is such important women's history that we can all learn
(08:27):
something from. I know I have learned so much. So
first up, we are going to meet Terry O'Neill, the
president of the National Organization for Women, who we talked to,
like Caroline said, right before we went to their fiftieth
anniversary conference, which we were so honored to be invited to. Um,
And for a little bit about Terry's background, she is
(08:50):
a political activist, a former law professor specializing in feminist
legal theory, international women's rights law, and legal ethics, and
just an all around champion for women. Oh, thank you
so much for having me. And it really is an amazing,
amazing time. It's an amazing milestone. And what a year
(09:11):
for now to be celebrating our fiftieth anniversary. Yeah, I mean,
does it does it seem like nineteen sixty six all
over again in certain ways of political tensions arising and
issues of gender and reproductive rights back in the news?
You know a little bit. But if I it's a
(09:32):
great way to ask that question, because if I try
to put myself back into nineteen sixty six, you know,
We have so many pictures from that era and I go,
oh my god, things have really improved. We things really
have improved. Um. For example, we now have a major demo,
a major political party. Uh that that is about to
(09:53):
nominate a woman, and a woman of remarkable achievement and
a woman who is a thorough go being born feminist.
So that's just extraordinary. I mean, back in ninety six, guests,
who was in charge of most of the state level
commissions on the status of women? That would be white male.
No surprise there, right, So Uh, I definitely want to
(10:17):
come back to Hillary Clinton later in our conversation, but
first I want to learn a little bit more about
you and have you introduce yourself a little bit more
for our audience. Um. And there is a question that
I'm borrowing from another fantastic podcast called Another Round that
starts each of their interviews with guests with the question
(10:40):
what do you do and why? Okay, So, I am
the president of the National Organization for Women UM. Our
purpose and it is a new purpose to start off
our our the next fifty years of feminist activism. Now
purpose is to take action through intersectional grassroots organizing to
(11:03):
promote feminist ideals and lead societal change. Uh, it's kind
of a mouthful, but the purpose, as stated in nineteen
sixty six, was to take action to bring women into
the mainstream of American society, and quite frankly, on many measures,
we have achieved that goal. But but too many women
(11:24):
have been left behind. So when when the conference, the
NOW Conference, the membership gathered last year in doing a
total by laws revision with a view to our fiftieth anniversary,
one of the things that came up was, so many
women have been left behind. We must really put a
a true commitment to intersectional organizing right into our by laws.
(11:48):
So it's important to note there and and really re
emphasize the fact that Terry is stressing the importance of
intersectionality both in Now's past but also in their future
moving forward, because I mean, as we as we hinted
at earlier, Now is frequently and has frequently been criticized
for a for a lack of intersectionality and not having
(12:11):
done enough for different types of women, different groups of
women in the beginning at the inception of the group.
And I mean that's partially valid, but it's not entirely accurate. Yeah,
I mean, I have a feeling a lot of us
and myself included until I read a lot and talked
to Terry, but a lot of us probably don't know
(12:32):
the details of how the National Organization for Women happened. Um,
And it's kind of a fascinating story that begins in
nineteen sixty five. That's right, that's when Polly Murray, and
we mentioned earlier, and who's a major heroine of ours,
she spoke to the National Council of Women of the
United States on the injustice of sex segregated job classified
(12:57):
and this is what we mean by sex segregated chat clause.
It's well, it's pretty self explanatory, but it's basically like,
over here, we're looking for a well educated man to
be a boss and make a lot of money, make
a lot of money and wear suits. And I'm sure
that was specified just like that. And then over here
we've got the classified for women where you've got to
(13:17):
be the saucy little minx to be a secretary, looking
for a saucy minks who doesn't mind being underpaid and
probably sexually harassed constantly. So Polly Murray's talk inspires a
labor union activist in the audience you've probably heard of
named Betty for dan Um. She had just published The
(13:40):
Feminine Mystique, which you know, was this groundbreaking feminist text
identifying the quote unquote problem without a Name, which essentially
is that, hey, uh, me and all my miladies went
to Barnard and Vassar, etcetera. And now our housewives, what's
up with that? And Betty for day and who had
(14:00):
been really involved in labor activism, contacts Murray because she's like, lady,
you singing my song, let's talk. And then that that
kind of gets things going, which leads us into nineteen
sixties six when the annual National Conference of the State
(14:22):
Commissions on the Status of Women take place, which is
kind of a big deal because there was this Presidential
Council on the Status of Women, which Polly Murray and
other uh, you know, notable folks were appointed to to
essentially tell the White House what was up with all
(14:43):
of the gender equality going on. So these people involved
in these commissions were really excited at the prospect of
the government paying attention to women's issues, but also kind
of frustrated that they weren't really seeing much action out
of it. Yeah, well, exactly. They were excited at the prospect,
(15:07):
but in reality, not much was going on now before
we arrive at the national conference. What's been happening in
preceding months with Betty for Dan is that, according to her,
she's been hearing from scores of suffragettes as she called them,
who had campaigned for the right to vote way back when,
(15:29):
who were beside themselves and completely marginalized in general, Like
after the nineteenth Amendment happened, the government was like, hey, ladies,
you can vote, so hands off, y'all. Just like, get
back the kitchen or something. I don't know, maybe get
a job where you can be underpaid and sexually harassed.
I don't really care, um, but these, you know, women
(15:50):
who had dedicated their lives for suffrage were now so
concerned that Title seven of a Civil Rights Act was
not being enforced. Entitled seven is the clause stating that
you essentially can't discriminate an employment on the basis of
things including sex. Yeah, raise color, religion, sex, and national origin.
(16:15):
But a lot of women were getting frustrated that the
e O C seemed to be kind of overlooking the
word sex in the Civil Rights Act. So now we
arrive at the national conference. Yeah, so for Dan shows up,
She's definitely not pleased, and she ends up publicly denouncing
the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission's poor enforcement of Title seven.
(16:38):
And Polly Murray and fellow labor activists Dorothy Hainer get
when of for Dan being there, she's there is press uh.
They hear about her denouncing the e o C. They
convince her to meet with them and some other women
in a hotel room where they essentially hatched a plan
to demand more action from the EGO SEE at this
(17:00):
national conference. But the next day at the conference they
were rebuffed. I feel like this should be a movie,
like all these brilliant women getting together in a hotel
room to plot plot for equality. I love it. A
plot as in, you know, like a narrative for equality.
Double meaning this movie is writing itself, Carolina, I would
(17:20):
watch it after it writes itself, because I'm not writing it.
So after they do the plotting and then the plotting
falls through because the e f C is like nah,
they are furious and still want to take actions. So
this is what prompts them to form the National Organization
for Women. They explicitly want to create actionable change without
(17:41):
all of this governmental red tape getting in the way.
And this is also what we referred to in our
episode on Paul Murray as the quote in double a
c P for Women. So while the National Organization for Women,
I think is usually portrayed as just the brain child
of Betty for Dan alone, it was not that. And
(18:04):
we want to correct a couple more over. Generalization's courtesy
of Maryann Barrasco's very helpful book Governing Now Grassroots Activism
in the National Organization for Women, because Brasco kind of
breaks it down, you know, asking was this an exclusively white,
middle class group of women who were solely intent on
(18:25):
elevating their own legal status and employment prospects, And the
answer is yes and no. I mean, because you have
to remember that Betty for Dan is coming from, you know,
labor activism background. She herself is super white, super super
middle class. Sure, and she also mind for those early
members of NOW. She also mind sort of the top
(18:47):
rung of of professional women. And I mean, if you
just look at the women who are who have reached
that point in the career ladder, they're not breaking the
glass ceiling yet, so to speak. But those did tend
to be fellow middle class white ladies basically, so yes,
the answer is yes and no exactly. And Terry O'Neill
(19:07):
addresses this in terms of the reality of how the
organization came to be and how it functioned and who
was a part of it versus the media narrative that
has really established a lot of how we probably think
about now today. What I think is that every movement
(19:28):
has cross currents within it um and then you have
the media, which has the unenviable job of trying to
explain movements to the rest of the country, and and
and the explanation of it gets it's difficult. Media have
to simplify the message, and if they can't find a
simple narrative, they will make one up, not out of
(19:50):
whole cloths. They will see what they look at, what
they can see, and they will construct their own narrative.
So I think partly there's been this, uh, this narrative
out there that's partly on fair about the National Organization
for Women being only focused on white women's problems. Part
of the reason for that narrative, though, is that in
the media's mind and in many people's mind, sort of
(20:12):
the second wave of feminism is now, and now is
the second wave of feminism. But we know that there
were always many other organizations. Has said cross cutting, a
cross currents within any movement. Now was always dedicated to
recognizing the interconnectedness of all of these issues, but it
was also always dedicated to grassroots organizing, and as such,
(20:36):
Now put a ton of resources into the community based organizations,
which left fewer resources for a massive um communications effort,
a massive PR effort, And that just has honestly for
fifty years that the doing PR at the extense of
(20:56):
grassroots activism has just never been something that Now did
as a resulult. You know, sometimes the narrative uh is constructed, um,
and it doesn't quite capture what what now part of
the women's movement has been. Now having said that, I
will tell you that I believe that within my own
(21:17):
organization and certainly within the women's movement, certainly the second
wave women's movement, we do have an intersectional gap. Uh
is what I what I sort of call it. There
are too many of us who look and have look
like me and have my life experience highly privileged, heterosexual, assist,
(21:38):
gender well educated. Um Uh, there are too many women
who when they think about women's issues, they sort of
immediately think of their own personal um experience. I know
I make that mistake myself. What we have to do
is say, how does this work for transgender women of color?
How does this work for women in the immigrant communit,
(22:00):
how does this work for domestic workers, how does this
policy play out in African American communities? If we are
not constantly asking those questions, we are then creating an
intersectional gap, and we are we will be just really
accused of only caring about upper middle class white women.
And later in our chat, Terry also offered some more
(22:22):
clarifying details on really the sexism that prompted a lot
of these women like Polly Murray to want to join
and help form the National Organization for Women, Because a
lot of these founding members came straight out of other
(22:42):
progressive initiatives, whether it's you know, championing civil rights or
the peace movement, whatever, um, and they were often marginalized.
I mean, you have usually like men at the top,
including in the civil rights movement, who sort of left
the lesser visible, more grassroots UM kind of organizing to
(23:06):
the women. But in terms of decision making, and who
was the face of these movements. They really didn't have
much interest in letting women in the door. I think
that that like every movement, there are across deep cross
currents in the progressive movement. UM. Just as the women's
movement has had to overcome the image of being all
(23:28):
white and upper middle class UM, the progressive movement has
had to come an even harsher image, and that is
made up of entitled, uh, privileged white males who in
the nineteen sixties and the nineteen seventies specifically and explicitly
rejected the idea of female leadership. There were no women
(23:48):
in the piece movement that we're going to take leadership roles.
There were no women in the anti um UH, in
the anti the anti violence movement, that we're going to
be allowed to um to take leadership roles. Right. That
was quite frankly also true in the civil rights movement.
This is exactly why leaders like Polly Murray and Eileen
hernandez UM wanted to start the National Organization for Women. So,
(24:13):
like Terry said, I mean, you have Polly Murray in
there as one of the initial organizers, but you also
have e E. S C Chair, Eileen Hernandez among those
forty nine founding members, and now was incredibly diverse in
terms of the backgrounds and professions of the women who
made it up. You you have union leaders like a
(24:33):
Betty for Dan, but you also have sociologists. You've got
lady journalists and attorneys, religious leaders, and even media executives.
And in terms of their activism backgrounds that they were
coming from, you have women coming out of the United
Auto Workers, the in Double a c P, Students for
a Democratic Society, the League of Women Voters, on and
on and on. And they even had a nun. So
(24:56):
we've got so many things covered. Yeah, I mean, if
you've got a nune in their Sister Joel Reid was
a nun and a founding member and original member of
the National Organization for Women All Women Needed Now Yeah,
I mean she literally showed up and was like, listen,
I you know, have devoted my life to the church,
(25:17):
but there is certainly sexism there and I want to
do something about it. I mean, why wasn't sister act
about Sister Joel Reid. I'm just saying, talk about back
in the habit of fighting there you go. Okay, we've
got a lot of movie ideas just popping in this podcast.
Gotta say we should really copyright all of these screenplay ideas.
(25:39):
And in terms of the diversity of the members themselves,
like the backgrounds they were coming from, and how it
was rather narrow um that was addressed pretty early in
the history of the organization. As Terry O'Neill also explains, Look,
feminism is simply the belief that men and women should
(26:03):
share equally in all of the rights and responsibilities of
living in society right, that women should have equal opportunities
for leadership, that women have enormous um talents and skilled
to make commitments to their communities, and that this needs
to be respected. So so truly, since the late nineteen
sixties early seventies, has NOW really got it self organized.
(26:27):
Now developed a a multi issue agenda UH as well
as multiple tactics for achieving our agenda. But from the
very beginning more Now's uh Now's issue agenda included not
just achieving the end of sex discrimination and employment, but
also ending racism, also ending homophobia, and also ending violence
(26:51):
against women, which we view as sort of a UH
that is what keeps us all in our place all
too often is systemic violence. So despite all of the
ever generalizing that tends to happen about now and its membership,
what is not an oversimplification or an over generalization is
that these women were angry and they were honestly encouraged
(27:12):
to channel that anger into their activism. Basically like, hey, lady,
what makes you angry, Let's fight against it. And this
was something that founding member and former organization president who
we saw at the conference, Muriel Fox, told Time magazine
in an interview in regarding the fiftieth anniversary, and she
(27:35):
said everyone there knew that she wanted to work on
what made her mad. That's the reason the movement was
so successful. We had wonderful leaders, but we had thousands
of people who all were leaders working on what made
them angry about the situation at that time. And Fox's
own anger stem from being turned down from a copyrighting
(27:56):
job on the basis of sex. She went to college,
she you know, graduates and it's like, all right here, here,
I come world, Surely the world will accept me as
I am. Nope, nope, yeah, I mean, and the agency
told her flat out, we do not hire women for
this position. So instead of going to another agency. Fox
(28:16):
just kept applying for different positions within the same agency
and finally gets hired as a publicist and quickly becomes
a VP by nineteen sixty six. And that's great, And
as a lot of people told her that's great for
a woman. It always had that asterisk, and they always
made it clear to her that Okay, well, you've made
(28:39):
it as far as you're going to go, Like you've
made it to VP, what else do you want? And
that reminds me, Caroline of a moment at the conference
we were at where I was sitting next to one
of the very early members of now and she told me,
(29:00):
you can't imagine what it was like to be a
woman back then, just like it's almost indescribable because saying that,
you know, like, you're doing fine for a woman, but
that's as far as you're going to go, and that's it,
you know, I mean, you're you're supposed to accept that,
whereas today, you know, you would tweet that and things
(29:22):
would just go viral and we'd have a hashtag. Oh yeah,
there'd be all sorts of hashtags. But back then, there
was no even just basic respect for women's needs, desires,
and autonomy. Sure. But and then here you have this
group coming along saying not only we get your anger,
we understand your frustration, but we want you to be angrier.
(29:45):
You're allowed to be angry, and you're allowed to be
vocal and have a voice, and we want to help
you have that voice. I mean that's pretty revolutionary. Yeah,
I mean, what scares society more than the thought of
an angry woman and an angry woman talking. Yeah. I mean,
how quickly do we jumped to marginalized angry women shut
them down as being hysterical or overly emotional, especially women
(30:10):
of color. There's so much wrapped up with that UM.
But in terms of the anger that really got and
would continue to get women involved with NOW, it's really
fascinating to see how it broadened and focused on different
forms of inequality, particularly as its mission crystallized into the
(30:30):
early nineteen seventies. And this was something that jumped out
to me in talking to Terry O'Neill, because it wasn't
actually an experience like Muriel Fox of experiencing sexism on
a personal level that led Terry to the organization. I
was in middle school when the UM, when NOW was formed,
(30:54):
and I guess through high school in Connecticut, in the
suburbs of New York City. I just absorbed a feminist viewpoint,
if you will, my so so so. From high school onward,
I supported the e r A. However, I was not
active in the streets, writing letters to the editor, contacting
(31:17):
my member of Congress. I didn't do any of that
for the e r A. I did go to law school.
I I eventually ended up teaching law. My click moment
actually came in a in a sort of it's not
gonna sound like it's it's completely focused on women, which
is in fact true. That's my click moment was more
(31:38):
about race. Uh. But I was living in Louisiana. I
was teaching law at two Lane Law School, and David
Duke Um, who had risen to leadership in the q
plex Klan, who had strong ties with the neo Nazi
movement in the United States, was running for governor and
he was ahead in the polls, and I joined the
(31:58):
stop Duke moment did frankly, I did what a lot
of women do. My daughter at the time was just
six months old, and I suddenly looked around saw this
guy almost becoming governor of the state that I was
living in and raising a child in and I thought,
oh my god, things haven't gotten better like I thought
they would. I need to take actions. So that was
(32:20):
my click moment, was to stop Duke, and it really
got The second sort of deep click moment happened when
uh the exit polls showed although we did stop Duke, uh,
but but fifty point six percent of white women in
Orleans Parish actually voted for David Duke. That was my
(32:43):
click moment where I said to myself, Okay, I could
leave the state and have no job, or I could
stay here and try to make a difference in my
own community. So what did you do then? Well, I
started looking for or a place, sort of an outlet
where I could volunteer my time and make kind of
(33:06):
a difference. And I learned that, in fact, the National
Organization for Women did have an active chapter right there
in New Orleans. I went to a meeting and on
the wall is a big sign and it says it's
it's a circle. It's it says uh, sexism, racism, homophobia,
connect the dots. And I thought to myself, this is
(33:28):
an organization that gets me. I mean, I do worry
about sexism always have. But quite frankly, I have been fortunate,
extremely fortunate in my lifetime, you know, working in Louisiana
at a in an elite school like two Lane, I
was not feeling the impact of sexism, but I was
(33:49):
observing the impact of racism hugely all around me. And
to find an organization that understood that sexism, racism, homophobia,
these are all deeply intertwined. That was exactly the organization
that I needed. And I do wonder if some of
our younger listeners are surprised to hear that the National
Organization for Women had such a poster, But it is
(34:11):
worth emphasizing that the importance of intersectionality was basically baked
into their statement of Purpose, which they wrote in October
of nine. Yeah, and if you read it on the
organization's website, it notes that this is an historical document
because they have since you know, updated their statement of purpose,
(34:31):
as Terry has talked about UM, but it still says
so much. I mean, it's a it's a it's a
pretty profound historical document UM to me at least, And
it says explicitly that the purpose of now is to
take action to bring women into full participation in the
mainstream of American society now exercising all the privileges and
(34:53):
responsibilities thereof in truly equal partnership with men. But then
it goes in to even deeper detail, essentially itemizing all
of the problems. I mean, there's not so much of
a strategy as as there is just a laundry list
(35:15):
of horrible things that they want to change. Why you
should get angry cause your receipts of things being problematic.
Uh So, they point out in this document that while
nearly half of all American women between eighteen and sixty
five are working outside the home, most of those women
have not been able to rise above routine clerical sales
or factory jobs or their householder domestic workers, cleaning women,
(35:40):
hospital attendants. And they point out, quote about two thirds
of Negro women workers are in the lowest paid service occupations.
So all of these things, Kristen, that you and I
have frequently talked about on the podcast, issues of intersectionality,
the fact that the wage gap is not the same
for white women as it is for women of color,
that it's greater for black women and Latino women. Second
(36:01):
wave feminists. We're talking about this and this was clearly
so important to now well and one thing that jumps
out to me in that statement of purpose, uh, partly
due to our not so mild obsession with Polly Murray.
Is it talking about the e o c s in
effectiveness in terms of addressing sexual harassment claims in a
(36:24):
timely manner. But then it goes into how black women
are victims of quote double discrimination of race and sex,
and that is language taken straight from Polly Murray, her
Jane Crow theory. Yes, yes, yes, so, I mean they
weren't one woke, but they were at least like half woke.
(36:45):
You know, they were awaken up. They're waken up. They
were woken up. There was almost folgers in their cut.
That's one for the for the thirty in the crowd.
So in nine sixty seven now starts to see an
influx of younger feminists who are really attracted to their
(37:06):
platform on reproductive rights. But at the same time as
you're getting these intergenerational relationships basically in the feminist movement,
you also start to see a bit of a dichotomy emerge. Yeah,
I mean this is where you have the liberal feminists,
as they're referred to which would be the kind of
original core now women versus the more radical feminists. And
(37:31):
the big difference between the two is that liberal feminists
are more focused on changing policy and laws in a
way to essentially like institutionalize equality, whereas radical feminists or
like burn the whole thing down, you know, gender roles,
throw it out the window. Guys, we don't need you
(37:52):
right now. Um, we're gonna go live on our farm.
And we're gonna go live on an all lady farm.
I mean, talk about angry. They wanted none of it,
you know. And but there's a lot of gray area
between hardcore liberal feminists and hardcore radical feminists who were living,
you know, on the all women farms. And that's women
(38:13):
with a y, by the way, because as feminist historian
Joe Freeman rights, in nineteen seventy four, there were a
quote almost infinite variety of groups, styles, and organizations happening
within the movement, but it essentially sprang from the National
(38:33):
Organization for Women, and then you have, yeah, the younger
generation of these civil rights turned women's lib activists. Because
in addition to now, of course, you have all sorts
of smaller groups, including just feminists. I appreciated that group
organization name where it was like, you know what, let's
just you know, let's just call ourselves feminists. Yeah, they
(38:57):
were just capital F feminists there, our capital left. Yes, yes,
there was also I wonder what all those men on
Twitter are talking about the must be referring to that group.
You know, it's a men's rights activist when he capitalizes feminists.
I'm just saying it's something I've noticed. But in addition
(39:17):
to the capital F feminists, there were you know, the
New York Radical Women, the Chicago Women's Liberation Union, the Furies,
and one of our favorites, the Women's International Terrorist Conspiracy
from Hell, which notice which So there's all sorts of
activism happening, whether you're talking more about policy wonks trying
(39:40):
to rewrite laws or feminist witches staging hexes on zapping people,
tapping people on Wall Street and zapps were just like
it's like negative energy, right, you're saying something nasty about somebody. Yeah,
I guess, yeah, I haven't. I actually have never participated
(40:02):
in a feminist that. I think it's time we do it. Listeners.
Let's um, but during this time, if we look at
the national organization for women. Specifically, in their first three
years from sixty six to sixty nine, they were largely
focused on that e o C Entitle seven enforcement and
(40:25):
really just trying to exercise media attention. Because think about
who those founding members were. It was a lot of journalists, publicists,
and law folks, so it makes sense that this was
their tactic. And so things sound like they're coming pretty well, right.
I mean, you've got now it's attracting all these young women,
(40:46):
but you've also got powerful women from the upper echelons
of some of these you know, media fields. Oh it's
it's so wonderful feminism. Everybody's getting along, right, Like that's
totally accurate. Well, unfortunately are nineteen seventy. This is when
Betty for Dan goes on that lavender menace, which hunt
(41:06):
not involving the group, which just yeah, just kind of
not down with the lesbian feminists around her. Yeah, And
we devoted an entire episode to that. So we're not
going to go into great detail on it, because seriously,
you got like a fifty minute conversation that you can
listen to after you're done with this episode if you
(41:28):
want to learn more about it. But one thing a
lot of people today forget about or just don't know
about two is that by one the National Organization for
Women was like, Betty for Dan, you need to step
down as president. We do not espouse your homophobic and
(41:50):
paranoid views, and we also apologize. So Terry had a
lot of thoughts about Betty for Dan, the lavender menace,
and how the organization very quickly expanded it's by laws
and resolutions to include lesbians. But here's the thing. You're
(42:15):
gonna have to wait for those thoughts until next time. Cliffhanger,
I know, Oh my god, do you hate us for
this feminist Cliffhanger? Come on, you can hate a feminist Cliffhanger.
I know it is exciting. I'm excited. I'm excited for
you to hear the rest of it. Fair listeners, Yes,
and you definitely want to tune in to hear what
(42:36):
Terry has to say, because, as you can probably already tell,
she has even more brilliant insight to offer. But especially
when it comes to Betty for Dan's legacy within the organization,
what Terry has to say might surprise you. Um And
we also still just have a lot more to talk about,
So be sure to tune into Now and then Part two,
(43:00):
which will be all about how the movement kind of
went through these schisms and has continued fighting that good fight.
And in the meantime, we want to hear from you.
What kind of thoughts has this conversation about the National
Organization for Women and its president, Terry O'Neil raised for you,
(43:21):
Any thoughts, comments, questions. Moms Stuff at how Stuff works
dot com is our email address. You can also tweet
us at mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook, and
of course, if you want to learn more about the
National Organization for Women, you can also head over to
their website at now, which is n OW dot org.
(43:45):
So now let's share a couple of letters y'all sent
to us. Okay, well, I have a letter here from
Jody on our work Wife episode. She says, So, I'm
listening to the episode on work Wives and enjoying going
through the work spouse relationships, of jobs passed in my
head and all that jazz. No big deal. It was
(44:06):
a wonderful episode. I was even tempted to write in
to tell you of the hilarity of a work wife
relationship I had. I had yet to write in though,
because I always think I'm going to send in an
anecdote or comment and don't. Then today, much to my horror,
my work wife for the past four plus years, walked
into my office with the look on her face and
(44:27):
closed the door behind her. She wanted to let me
know before anyone else knew that she was resigning. It
was a sudden opportunity and she should totally take it,
even though she wasn't looking. But this is going to
be hard. I moved on internally a year or so ago,
but that did nothing but increase our work day and
after hours digital communication and tendency to crack jokes in
(44:48):
and disrupt staff meetings. We work in behavioral health and
function on many treatment teams seamlessly, so I'm mourning from
my loss of work spouse and the ease with which
we work together to serve our joint clients. I also
have to assist in breaking to these clients that this
change is happening without looking like it affects me personally.
I'm so thrilled for her to take the opportunity she
(45:09):
stumbled upon, but it makes me sad for me. I
know that's selfish, but I'll just admit to being selfish
right now. Heavy sigh. Thank you ladies for the awesome
podcast and the timely episode. I'm going to go pout
about this further. I'm sorry, Jody. Oh and it's so understandable, Jody.
I don't definitely don't beat yourself up over feeling selfish
(45:30):
at all about it. Um. I also have a work
wife letter to share. This one comes from Maggie, who writes,
while listening to your latest episode on work wives and
work relationships, I had a feeling like I was the
protagonist in a teen movie where the book we're reading
an English class actually reflects what's going on in my
(45:50):
own life. To explain, a few months back, I started
a new job that I love, and as you were
describing the different types of work relationships that people have,
it fell like you were describing my new office. There
are definitely a few pairs of work spouses, both sexual
orientation matching and not, and there are quite a few
groups of work besties. I'm new, so I would classify
(46:12):
myself more as an acquaintance right now, because work spouses
take time. But I think I have a mentor mentee
relationship with the woman who trained me When I started,
she was in the midst of being promoted to a
more supervisory role, and I was the first new hired
that she trained completely on her own. I love my
new job, and it's the most supportive environment I've ever
worked in. However, I did also recognize one or two
(46:35):
people that would match your description of the toxic personality.
There was another new hire that started a few weeks
after me that I frankly can't bear to stand to
be around. She complains constantly as a generally snotty attitude
that she miscategorizes as being quote unquote specie and will
argue when receiving instruction. After listening to your work relationship
(46:56):
episode in the part about building bridges with people in
order to have better working relationship, I decided to give
her another chance for both readers, and in an effort
to bond, I showed her a grammatical error I found
in the book I was currently reading, and she rolled
her eyes at me and insisted that authors don't have
to follow quote those little rules. I have a bachelor's
in English and a graduate certificate in publishing, so that
(47:18):
comment really great it on me. So in short, I've
come to the conclusion that not everyone is destined to
be work besties, and sometimes the smartest move is keeping
all contact purely work related to avoid becoming something much
worse than an acquaintance, the work friend of me. Well,
thank you so much, Maggie, and I agree. Not everyone
(47:38):
can be your work spouse or even your work friend,
and yeah, having a work front of me is the worst.
So keep your letters coming and be sure to tune
into Part two coming out in a couple of days
for links to all of our social media as well
as all of our blogs, studios and podcasts with our
sources so you can learn more about the National Organization
(48:02):
for Women and its history. Head on over to stuff
Mom Never Told You dot com for more on this
and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff works
dot com
Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how Stop
Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm
Kristen and I'm Caroline. And we've talked about the National
Organization for Women so many times on Stuff Mom Never
(00:23):
Told You pretty much any time we get into second
wave feminism, there's NOW, which is an acronym for the
National Organization for Women. There's now, by the way, Yeah,
it's not that kristin syntax just completely broke down. There's now.
What does that even mean? Yeah, And we we obviously
talked about now in our episode on Polly Murray because
(00:47):
she was one of the main leading figures helping to
found that organization. But we also talked about now in
our episode on the Lavender Menace and the schism within
the National Organization for Women instigated by Betty for Dan
referring to lesbians within the organization as a quote unquote
(01:10):
lavender menace that she was scared of. Well, I mean,
it honestly sounds just so well scented, you know, lavender,
it's soothing, it's beautiful to look out over a field
of lavender. Doesn't sound menacing at all exactly, which makes
it worse, I know, well, at one source that I
was reading about it to m describes her paranoia of
(01:32):
lesbians within the organization, particularly radical feminist lesbians in the organization,
as a product of McCarthy era paranoia and borrowing some
of that same language. But I don't want to get
to you ahead of our conversation that we have today
with current NOW president Terry O'Neill, who we were so
(01:57):
excited to talk to, because mean, this really is a
cornerstone organization of the feminist movement, well for sure, and Kristin,
you spoke with her shortly before you and I traveled
to Now's fiftieth anniversary celebration in Washington, d C. And
I just want to go ahead and say that when
I met Terry with you in person, um, but talking
(02:21):
to her was so exciting because I feel like in
our day to day life, you know, we tell people
what we do, oh, you know, we are feminists, we
have a feminist podcast, and everybody thinks, oh, that's very good,
good for you. But to be in a room with
all of these hardcore, amazing feminist trailblazers and then to
talk to Terry and she was clearly so passionate about
(02:43):
everything that Now has done and is doing and is
planning to do in the future. And it was such
a great moment. And I mean, this woman was pumping
her fist. I was so excited to talk to her.
And in addition to her just having a warm personality,
she is a wealth of knowledge and experience because Terry
(03:04):
sits at this really interesting moment in Now's history, you know,
as the president going into its fiftieth year, which is huge,
but also when she got involved with the organization, it
had been around for a little bit, you know, she
wasn't one of the founding members, and her entry into
(03:29):
feminist activism and working with the National Organization for Women
is really reflective of how quickly NOW developed it's multi
platform agenda that she's going to talk about because it's
something that we probably don't commonly know right well exactly,
(03:51):
And and what Kristen's referring to is going back to
that whole generational gap, the schism that happened not only
at the founding of NOW between women like Betty for
Dan who were not so keen on having the radical
lesbian feminists in their group, but also today the schism
(04:12):
that exists between millennial feminists and second way feminists because we,
as younger feminists, stereotypically we tend to think of now
as just this upper crest, middle class, white woman's working organization,
you know, almost like the original lean in that wasn't
there as a voice for women of color, for lesbian women,
(04:36):
that they weren't inclusive at all. But that's pretty far
from the truth. But then on the flip side of that,
you have these original members of the National Organization for
Women who look at millennial feminists who are active in
such different kinds of ways, um and our skeptical of
(05:00):
our commitment, you know, and our you know, question whether
we take a lot of their work for granted and understandably.
And then you have on the other side of that gap,
some of the original second wave feminist activists looking at
millennial feminists today with a little bit of skepticism or
(05:24):
a lot of bit of skepticism, because our forms of
protests and activism in a lot of ways are radically
different from what was happening in the sixth season, especially
the seventies. And I think it's easy to dismiss no
matter who you are or how old you are. I
think it's very easy to dismiss hashtag activism or online
community building, um, if you don't look deeper into what's
(05:47):
going on, if you just brush people off as oh, well,
they're just on their phones, um, because it doesn't look
the same as picketing or marching. But what we're seeing,
especially now in this very contentious political climate that we're
in today, we are seeing more and more young people
taking that online community building that they've been working at
for so long literally to the streets to protest things
(06:11):
like police violence. Here in Atlanta, we had ten thousand
people and so many young people marching for those rights.
And that included not only the rights of black people
to be safe in this country, but also I mean
women in this community as well to be able to
come together and protest. And parallel to that is this
(06:34):
uncovering of women's history that a lot of millennial feminists
are really interested in. I mean just thinking about the
kinds of articles that we share on social media about oh,
here's the first woman who did this, here's the first
woman who did that. Here all these trailblazers we didn't
know about. Um. And that also goes to filling in
this you know, not so distant history of what was
(06:58):
actually happening on the ground owned when the women's liberation
movement really got going in the nineteen seventies, because I
think it's really important for us to have a better
understanding of all of the intersections at that time to
inform our intersectionality today, because it is very shortsighted of
(07:19):
us to sit here in s and presume that now
is nothing more than a relic of a bygone and
more narrow minded era, because that's not the truth at all. So,
I mean, that's one one reason why I'm really excited
to share this conversation with Terry O'Neill as we Caroline
(07:41):
and I offer a closer look at the that original founding,
the first you know, five six years of the National
Organization for Women. So just to prepare you, dear listeners,
we are going to be going back and forth earth
from our chat with Terry O'Neill to this mini history
(08:05):
that Caroline and I will be doing here in the studio.
But follow along please because I really, I really take
notes to take all the notes you want. Actually you
don't have to, because all the notes will be over
at stuff Mom've never told you dot com for your
reading convenience. UM, but I really do believe that this
is such important women's history that we can all learn
(08:27):
something from. I know I have learned so much. So
first up, we are going to meet Terry O'Neill, the
president of the National Organization for Women, who we talked to,
like Caroline said, right before we went to their fiftieth
anniversary conference, which we were so honored to be invited to. Um,
And for a little bit about Terry's background, she is
(08:50):
a political activist, a former law professor specializing in feminist
legal theory, international women's rights law, and legal ethics, and
just an all around champion for women. Oh, thank you
so much for having me. And it really is an amazing,
amazing time. It's an amazing milestone. And what a year
(09:11):
for now to be celebrating our fiftieth anniversary. Yeah, I mean,
does it does it seem like nineteen sixty six all
over again in certain ways of political tensions arising and
issues of gender and reproductive rights back in the news?
You know a little bit. But if I it's a
(09:32):
great way to ask that question, because if I try
to put myself back into nineteen sixty six, you know,
We have so many pictures from that era and I go,
oh my god, things have really improved. We things really
have improved. Um. For example, we now have a major demo,
a major political party. Uh that that is about to
(09:53):
nominate a woman, and a woman of remarkable achievement and
a woman who is a thorough go being born feminist.
So that's just extraordinary. I mean, back in ninety six, guests,
who was in charge of most of the state level
commissions on the status of women? That would be white male.
No surprise there, right, So Uh, I definitely want to
(10:17):
come back to Hillary Clinton later in our conversation, but
first I want to learn a little bit more about
you and have you introduce yourself a little bit more
for our audience. Um. And there is a question that
I'm borrowing from another fantastic podcast called Another Round that
starts each of their interviews with guests with the question
(10:40):
what do you do and why? Okay, So, I am
the president of the National Organization for Women UM. Our
purpose and it is a new purpose to start off
our our the next fifty years of feminist activism. Now
purpose is to take action through intersectional grassroots organizing to
(11:03):
promote feminist ideals and lead societal change. Uh, it's kind
of a mouthful, but the purpose, as stated in nineteen
sixty six, was to take action to bring women into
the mainstream of American society, and quite frankly, on many measures,
we have achieved that goal. But but too many women
(11:24):
have been left behind. So when when the conference, the
NOW Conference, the membership gathered last year in doing a
total by laws revision with a view to our fiftieth anniversary,
one of the things that came up was, so many
women have been left behind. We must really put a
a true commitment to intersectional organizing right into our by laws.
(11:48):
So it's important to note there and and really re
emphasize the fact that Terry is stressing the importance of
intersectionality both in Now's past but also in their future
moving forward, because I mean, as we as we hinted
at earlier, Now is frequently and has frequently been criticized
for a for a lack of intersectionality and not having
(12:11):
done enough for different types of women, different groups of
women in the beginning at the inception of the group.
And I mean that's partially valid, but it's not entirely accurate. Yeah,
I mean, I have a feeling a lot of us
and myself included until I read a lot and talked
to Terry, but a lot of us probably don't know
(12:32):
the details of how the National Organization for Women happened. Um,
And it's kind of a fascinating story that begins in
nineteen sixty five. That's right, that's when Polly Murray, and
we mentioned earlier, and who's a major heroine of ours,
she spoke to the National Council of Women of the
United States on the injustice of sex segregated job classified
(12:57):
and this is what we mean by sex segregated chat clause.
It's well, it's pretty self explanatory, but it's basically like,
over here, we're looking for a well educated man to
be a boss and make a lot of money, make
a lot of money and wear suits. And I'm sure
that was specified just like that. And then over here
we've got the classified for women where you've got to
(13:17):
be the saucy little minx to be a secretary, looking
for a saucy minks who doesn't mind being underpaid and
probably sexually harassed constantly. So Polly Murray's talk inspires a
labor union activist in the audience you've probably heard of
named Betty for dan Um. She had just published The
(13:40):
Feminine Mystique, which you know, was this groundbreaking feminist text
identifying the quote unquote problem without a Name, which essentially
is that, hey, uh, me and all my miladies went
to Barnard and Vassar, etcetera. And now our housewives, what's
up with that? And Betty for day and who had
(14:00):
been really involved in labor activism, contacts Murray because she's like, lady,
you singing my song, let's talk. And then that that
kind of gets things going, which leads us into nineteen
sixties six when the annual National Conference of the State
(14:22):
Commissions on the Status of Women take place, which is
kind of a big deal because there was this Presidential
Council on the Status of Women, which Polly Murray and
other uh, you know, notable folks were appointed to to
essentially tell the White House what was up with all
(14:43):
of the gender equality going on. So these people involved
in these commissions were really excited at the prospect of
the government paying attention to women's issues, but also kind
of frustrated that they weren't really seeing much action out
of it. Yeah, well, exactly. They were excited at the prospect,
(15:07):
but in reality, not much was going on now before
we arrive at the national conference. What's been happening in
preceding months with Betty for Dan is that, according to her,
she's been hearing from scores of suffragettes as she called them,
who had campaigned for the right to vote way back when,
(15:29):
who were beside themselves and completely marginalized in general, Like
after the nineteenth Amendment happened, the government was like, hey, ladies,
you can vote, so hands off, y'all. Just like, get
back the kitchen or something. I don't know, maybe get
a job where you can be underpaid and sexually harassed.
I don't really care, um, but these, you know, women
(15:50):
who had dedicated their lives for suffrage were now so
concerned that Title seven of a Civil Rights Act was
not being enforced. Entitled seven is the clause stating that
you essentially can't discriminate an employment on the basis of
things including sex. Yeah, raise color, religion, sex, and national origin.
(16:15):
But a lot of women were getting frustrated that the
e O C seemed to be kind of overlooking the
word sex in the Civil Rights Act. So now we
arrive at the national conference. Yeah, so for Dan shows up,
She's definitely not pleased, and she ends up publicly denouncing
the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission's poor enforcement of Title seven.
(16:38):
And Polly Murray and fellow labor activists Dorothy Hainer get
when of for Dan being there, she's there is press uh.
They hear about her denouncing the e o C. They
convince her to meet with them and some other women
in a hotel room where they essentially hatched a plan
to demand more action from the EGO SEE at this
(17:00):
national conference. But the next day at the conference they
were rebuffed. I feel like this should be a movie,
like all these brilliant women getting together in a hotel
room to plot plot for equality. I love it. A
plot as in, you know, like a narrative for equality.
Double meaning this movie is writing itself, Carolina, I would
(17:20):
watch it after it writes itself, because I'm not writing it.
So after they do the plotting and then the plotting
falls through because the e f C is like nah,
they are furious and still want to take actions. So
this is what prompts them to form the National Organization
for Women. They explicitly want to create actionable change without
(17:41):
all of this governmental red tape getting in the way.
And this is also what we referred to in our
episode on Paul Murray as the quote in double a
c P for Women. So while the National Organization for Women,
I think is usually portrayed as just the brain child
of Betty for Dan alone, it was not that. And
(18:04):
we want to correct a couple more over. Generalization's courtesy
of Maryann Barrasco's very helpful book Governing Now Grassroots Activism
in the National Organization for Women, because Brasco kind of
breaks it down, you know, asking was this an exclusively white,
middle class group of women who were solely intent on
(18:25):
elevating their own legal status and employment prospects, And the
answer is yes and no. I mean, because you have
to remember that Betty for Dan is coming from, you know,
labor activism background. She herself is super white, super super
middle class. Sure, and she also mind for those early
members of NOW. She also mind sort of the top
(18:47):
rung of of professional women. And I mean, if you
just look at the women who are who have reached
that point in the career ladder, they're not breaking the
glass ceiling yet, so to speak. But those did tend
to be fellow middle class white ladies basically, so yes,
the answer is yes and no exactly. And Terry O'Neill
(19:07):
addresses this in terms of the reality of how the
organization came to be and how it functioned and who
was a part of it versus the media narrative that
has really established a lot of how we probably think
about now today. What I think is that every movement
(19:28):
has cross currents within it um and then you have
the media, which has the unenviable job of trying to
explain movements to the rest of the country, and and
and the explanation of it gets it's difficult. Media have
to simplify the message, and if they can't find a
simple narrative, they will make one up, not out of
(19:50):
whole cloths. They will see what they look at, what
they can see, and they will construct their own narrative.
So I think partly there's been this, uh, this narrative
out there that's partly on fair about the National Organization
for Women being only focused on white women's problems. Part
of the reason for that narrative, though, is that in
the media's mind and in many people's mind, sort of
(20:12):
the second wave of feminism is now, and now is
the second wave of feminism. But we know that there
were always many other organizations. Has said cross cutting, a
cross currents within any movement. Now was always dedicated to
recognizing the interconnectedness of all of these issues, but it
was also always dedicated to grassroots organizing, and as such,
(20:36):
Now put a ton of resources into the community based organizations,
which left fewer resources for a massive um communications effort,
a massive PR effort, And that just has honestly for
fifty years that the doing PR at the extense of
(20:56):
grassroots activism has just never been something that Now did
as a resulult. You know, sometimes the narrative uh is constructed, um,
and it doesn't quite capture what what now part of
the women's movement has been. Now having said that, I
will tell you that I believe that within my own
(21:17):
organization and certainly within the women's movement, certainly the second
wave women's movement, we do have an intersectional gap. Uh
is what I what I sort of call it. There
are too many of us who look and have look
like me and have my life experience highly privileged, heterosexual, assist,
(21:38):
gender well educated. Um Uh, there are too many women
who when they think about women's issues, they sort of
immediately think of their own personal um experience. I know
I make that mistake myself. What we have to do
is say, how does this work for transgender women of color?
How does this work for women in the immigrant communit,
(22:00):
how does this work for domestic workers, how does this
policy play out in African American communities? If we are
not constantly asking those questions, we are then creating an
intersectional gap, and we are we will be just really
accused of only caring about upper middle class white women.
And later in our chat, Terry also offered some more
(22:22):
clarifying details on really the sexism that prompted a lot
of these women like Polly Murray to want to join
and help form the National Organization for Women, Because a
lot of these founding members came straight out of other
(22:42):
progressive initiatives, whether it's you know, championing civil rights or
the peace movement, whatever, um, and they were often marginalized.
I mean, you have usually like men at the top,
including in the civil rights movement, who sort of left
the lesser visible, more grassroots UM kind of organizing to
(23:06):
the women. But in terms of decision making, and who
was the face of these movements. They really didn't have
much interest in letting women in the door. I think
that that like every movement, there are across deep cross
currents in the progressive movement. UM. Just as the women's
movement has had to overcome the image of being all
(23:28):
white and upper middle class UM, the progressive movement has
had to come an even harsher image, and that is
made up of entitled, uh, privileged white males who in
the nineteen sixties and the nineteen seventies specifically and explicitly
rejected the idea of female leadership. There were no women
(23:48):
in the piece movement that we're going to take leadership roles.
There were no women in the anti um UH, in
the anti the anti violence movement, that we're going to
be allowed to um to take leadership roles. Right. That
was quite frankly also true in the civil rights movement.
This is exactly why leaders like Polly Murray and Eileen
hernandez UM wanted to start the National Organization for Women. So,
(24:13):
like Terry said, I mean, you have Polly Murray in
there as one of the initial organizers, but you also
have e E. S C Chair, Eileen Hernandez among those
forty nine founding members, and now was incredibly diverse in
terms of the backgrounds and professions of the women who
made it up. You you have union leaders like a
(24:33):
Betty for Dan, but you also have sociologists. You've got
lady journalists and attorneys, religious leaders, and even media executives.
And in terms of their activism backgrounds that they were
coming from, you have women coming out of the United
Auto Workers, the in Double a c P, Students for
a Democratic Society, the League of Women Voters, on and
on and on. And they even had a nun. So
(24:56):
we've got so many things covered. Yeah, I mean, if
you've got a nune in their Sister Joel Reid was
a nun and a founding member and original member of
the National Organization for Women All Women Needed Now Yeah,
I mean she literally showed up and was like, listen,
I you know, have devoted my life to the church,
(25:17):
but there is certainly sexism there and I want to
do something about it. I mean, why wasn't sister act
about Sister Joel Reid. I'm just saying, talk about back
in the habit of fighting there you go. Okay, we've
got a lot of movie ideas just popping in this podcast.
Gotta say we should really copyright all of these screenplay ideas.
(25:39):
And in terms of the diversity of the members themselves,
like the backgrounds they were coming from, and how it
was rather narrow um that was addressed pretty early in
the history of the organization. As Terry O'Neill also explains, Look,
feminism is simply the belief that men and women should
(26:03):
share equally in all of the rights and responsibilities of
living in society right, that women should have equal opportunities
for leadership, that women have enormous um talents and skilled
to make commitments to their communities, and that this needs
to be respected. So so truly, since the late nineteen
sixties early seventies, has NOW really got it self organized.
(26:27):
Now developed a a multi issue agenda UH as well
as multiple tactics for achieving our agenda. But from the
very beginning more Now's uh Now's issue agenda included not
just achieving the end of sex discrimination and employment, but
also ending racism, also ending homophobia, and also ending violence
(26:51):
against women, which we view as sort of a UH
that is what keeps us all in our place all
too often is systemic violence. So despite all of the
ever generalizing that tends to happen about now and its membership,
what is not an oversimplification or an over generalization is
that these women were angry and they were honestly encouraged
(27:12):
to channel that anger into their activism. Basically like, hey, lady,
what makes you angry, Let's fight against it. And this
was something that founding member and former organization president who
we saw at the conference, Muriel Fox, told Time magazine
in an interview in regarding the fiftieth anniversary, and she
(27:35):
said everyone there knew that she wanted to work on
what made her mad. That's the reason the movement was
so successful. We had wonderful leaders, but we had thousands
of people who all were leaders working on what made
them angry about the situation at that time. And Fox's
own anger stem from being turned down from a copyrighting
(27:56):
job on the basis of sex. She went to college,
she you know, graduates and it's like, all right here, here,
I come world, Surely the world will accept me as
I am. Nope, nope, yeah, I mean, and the agency
told her flat out, we do not hire women for
this position. So instead of going to another agency. Fox
(28:16):
just kept applying for different positions within the same agency
and finally gets hired as a publicist and quickly becomes
a VP by nineteen sixty six. And that's great, And
as a lot of people told her that's great for
a woman. It always had that asterisk, and they always
made it clear to her that Okay, well, you've made
(28:39):
it as far as you're going to go, Like you've
made it to VP, what else do you want? And
that reminds me, Caroline of a moment at the conference
we were at where I was sitting next to one
of the very early members of now and she told me,
(29:00):
you can't imagine what it was like to be a
woman back then, just like it's almost indescribable because saying that,
you know, like, you're doing fine for a woman, but
that's as far as you're going to go, and that's it,
you know, I mean, you're you're supposed to accept that,
whereas today, you know, you would tweet that and things
(29:22):
would just go viral and we'd have a hashtag. Oh yeah,
there'd be all sorts of hashtags. But back then, there
was no even just basic respect for women's needs, desires,
and autonomy. Sure. But and then here you have this
group coming along saying not only we get your anger,
we understand your frustration, but we want you to be angrier.
(29:45):
You're allowed to be angry, and you're allowed to be
vocal and have a voice, and we want to help
you have that voice. I mean that's pretty revolutionary. Yeah,
I mean, what scares society more than the thought of
an angry woman and an angry woman talking. Yeah. I mean,
how quickly do we jumped to marginalized angry women shut
them down as being hysterical or overly emotional, especially women
(30:10):
of color. There's so much wrapped up with that UM.
But in terms of the anger that really got and
would continue to get women involved with NOW, it's really
fascinating to see how it broadened and focused on different
forms of inequality, particularly as its mission crystallized into the
(30:30):
early nineteen seventies. And this was something that jumped out
to me in talking to Terry O'Neill, because it wasn't
actually an experience like Muriel Fox of experiencing sexism on
a personal level that led Terry to the organization. I
was in middle school when the UM, when NOW was formed,
(30:54):
and I guess through high school in Connecticut, in the
suburbs of New York City. I just absorbed a feminist viewpoint,
if you will, my so so so. From high school onward,
I supported the e r A. However, I was not
active in the streets, writing letters to the editor, contacting
(31:17):
my member of Congress. I didn't do any of that
for the e r A. I did go to law school.
I I eventually ended up teaching law. My click moment
actually came in a in a sort of it's not
gonna sound like it's it's completely focused on women, which
is in fact true. That's my click moment was more
(31:38):
about race. Uh. But I was living in Louisiana. I
was teaching law at two Lane Law School, and David
Duke Um, who had risen to leadership in the q
plex Klan, who had strong ties with the neo Nazi
movement in the United States, was running for governor and
he was ahead in the polls, and I joined the
(31:58):
stop Duke moment did frankly, I did what a lot
of women do. My daughter at the time was just
six months old, and I suddenly looked around saw this
guy almost becoming governor of the state that I was
living in and raising a child in and I thought,
oh my god, things haven't gotten better like I thought
they would. I need to take actions. So that was
(32:20):
my click moment, was to stop Duke, and it really
got The second sort of deep click moment happened when
uh the exit polls showed although we did stop Duke, uh,
but but fifty point six percent of white women in
Orleans Parish actually voted for David Duke. That was my
(32:43):
click moment where I said to myself, Okay, I could
leave the state and have no job, or I could
stay here and try to make a difference in my
own community. So what did you do then? Well, I
started looking for or a place, sort of an outlet
where I could volunteer my time and make kind of
(33:06):
a difference. And I learned that, in fact, the National
Organization for Women did have an active chapter right there
in New Orleans. I went to a meeting and on
the wall is a big sign and it says it's
it's a circle. It's it says uh, sexism, racism, homophobia,
connect the dots. And I thought to myself, this is
(33:28):
an organization that gets me. I mean, I do worry
about sexism always have. But quite frankly, I have been fortunate,
extremely fortunate in my lifetime, you know, working in Louisiana
at a in an elite school like two Lane, I
was not feeling the impact of sexism, but I was
(33:49):
observing the impact of racism hugely all around me. And
to find an organization that understood that sexism, racism, homophobia,
these are all deeply intertwined. That was exactly the organization
that I needed. And I do wonder if some of
our younger listeners are surprised to hear that the National
Organization for Women had such a poster, But it is
(34:11):
worth emphasizing that the importance of intersectionality was basically baked
into their statement of Purpose, which they wrote in October
of nine. Yeah, and if you read it on the
organization's website, it notes that this is an historical document
because they have since you know, updated their statement of purpose,
(34:31):
as Terry has talked about UM, but it still says
so much. I mean, it's a it's a it's a
pretty profound historical document UM to me at least, And
it says explicitly that the purpose of now is to
take action to bring women into full participation in the
mainstream of American society now exercising all the privileges and
(34:53):
responsibilities thereof in truly equal partnership with men. But then
it goes in to even deeper detail, essentially itemizing all
of the problems. I mean, there's not so much of
a strategy as as there is just a laundry list
(35:15):
of horrible things that they want to change. Why you
should get angry cause your receipts of things being problematic.
Uh So, they point out in this document that while
nearly half of all American women between eighteen and sixty
five are working outside the home, most of those women
have not been able to rise above routine clerical sales
or factory jobs or their householder domestic workers, cleaning women,
(35:40):
hospital attendants. And they point out, quote about two thirds
of Negro women workers are in the lowest paid service occupations.
So all of these things, Kristen, that you and I
have frequently talked about on the podcast, issues of intersectionality,
the fact that the wage gap is not the same
for white women as it is for women of color,
that it's greater for black women and Latino women. Second
(36:01):
wave feminists. We're talking about this and this was clearly
so important to now well and one thing that jumps
out to me in that statement of purpose, uh, partly
due to our not so mild obsession with Polly Murray.
Is it talking about the e o c s in
effectiveness in terms of addressing sexual harassment claims in a
(36:24):
timely manner. But then it goes into how black women
are victims of quote double discrimination of race and sex,
and that is language taken straight from Polly Murray, her
Jane Crow theory. Yes, yes, yes, so, I mean they
weren't one woke, but they were at least like half woke.
(36:45):
You know, they were awaken up. They're waken up. They
were woken up. There was almost folgers in their cut.
That's one for the for the thirty in the crowd.
So in nine sixty seven now starts to see an
influx of younger feminists who are really attracted to their
(37:06):
platform on reproductive rights. But at the same time as
you're getting these intergenerational relationships basically in the feminist movement,
you also start to see a bit of a dichotomy emerge. Yeah,
I mean this is where you have the liberal feminists,
as they're referred to which would be the kind of
original core now women versus the more radical feminists. And
(37:31):
the big difference between the two is that liberal feminists
are more focused on changing policy and laws in a
way to essentially like institutionalize equality, whereas radical feminists or
like burn the whole thing down, you know, gender roles,
throw it out the window. Guys, we don't need you
(37:52):
right now. Um, we're gonna go live on our farm.
And we're gonna go live on an all lady farm.
I mean, talk about angry. They wanted none of it,
you know. And but there's a lot of gray area
between hardcore liberal feminists and hardcore radical feminists who were living,
you know, on the all women farms. And that's women
(38:13):
with a y, by the way, because as feminist historian
Joe Freeman rights, in nineteen seventy four, there were a
quote almost infinite variety of groups, styles, and organizations happening
within the movement, but it essentially sprang from the National
(38:33):
Organization for Women, and then you have, yeah, the younger
generation of these civil rights turned women's lib activists. Because
in addition to now, of course, you have all sorts
of smaller groups, including just feminists. I appreciated that group
organization name where it was like, you know what, let's
just you know, let's just call ourselves feminists. Yeah, they
(38:57):
were just capital F feminists there, our capital left. Yes, yes,
there was also I wonder what all those men on
Twitter are talking about the must be referring to that group.
You know, it's a men's rights activist when he capitalizes feminists.
I'm just saying it's something I've noticed. But in addition
(39:17):
to the capital F feminists, there were you know, the
New York Radical Women, the Chicago Women's Liberation Union, the Furies,
and one of our favorites, the Women's International Terrorist Conspiracy
from Hell, which notice which So there's all sorts of
activism happening, whether you're talking more about policy wonks trying
(39:40):
to rewrite laws or feminist witches staging hexes on zapping people,
tapping people on Wall Street and zapps were just like
it's like negative energy, right, you're saying something nasty about somebody. Yeah,
I guess, yeah, I haven't. I actually have never participated
(40:02):
in a feminist that. I think it's time we do it. Listeners.
Let's um, but during this time, if we look at
the national organization for women. Specifically, in their first three
years from sixty six to sixty nine, they were largely
focused on that e o C Entitle seven enforcement and
(40:25):
really just trying to exercise media attention. Because think about
who those founding members were. It was a lot of journalists, publicists,
and law folks, so it makes sense that this was
their tactic. And so things sound like they're coming pretty well, right.
I mean, you've got now it's attracting all these young women,
(40:46):
but you've also got powerful women from the upper echelons
of some of these you know, media fields. Oh it's
it's so wonderful feminism. Everybody's getting along, right, Like that's
totally accurate. Well, unfortunately are nineteen seventy. This is when
Betty for Dan goes on that lavender menace, which hunt
(41:06):
not involving the group, which just yeah, just kind of
not down with the lesbian feminists around her. Yeah, And
we devoted an entire episode to that. So we're not
going to go into great detail on it, because seriously,
you got like a fifty minute conversation that you can
listen to after you're done with this episode if you
(41:28):
want to learn more about it. But one thing a
lot of people today forget about or just don't know
about two is that by one the National Organization for
Women was like, Betty for Dan, you need to step
down as president. We do not espouse your homophobic and
(41:50):
paranoid views, and we also apologize. So Terry had a
lot of thoughts about Betty for Dan, the lavender menace,
and how the organization very quickly expanded it's by laws
and resolutions to include lesbians. But here's the thing. You're
(42:15):
gonna have to wait for those thoughts until next time. Cliffhanger,
I know, Oh my god, do you hate us for
this feminist Cliffhanger? Come on, you can hate a feminist Cliffhanger.
I know it is exciting. I'm excited. I'm excited for
you to hear the rest of it. Fair listeners, Yes,
and you definitely want to tune in to hear what
(42:36):
Terry has to say, because, as you can probably already tell,
she has even more brilliant insight to offer. But especially
when it comes to Betty for Dan's legacy within the organization,
what Terry has to say might surprise you. Um And
we also still just have a lot more to talk about,
So be sure to tune into Now and then Part two,
(43:00):
which will be all about how the movement kind of
went through these schisms and has continued fighting that good fight.
And in the meantime, we want to hear from you.
What kind of thoughts has this conversation about the National
Organization for Women and its president, Terry O'Neil raised for you,
(43:21):
Any thoughts, comments, questions. Moms Stuff at how Stuff works
dot com is our email address. You can also tweet
us at mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook, and
of course, if you want to learn more about the
National Organization for Women, you can also head over to
their website at now, which is n OW dot org.
(43:45):
So now let's share a couple of letters y'all sent
to us. Okay, well, I have a letter here from
Jody on our work Wife episode. She says, So, I'm
listening to the episode on work Wives and enjoying going
through the work spouse relationships, of jobs passed in my
head and all that jazz. No big deal. It was
(44:06):
a wonderful episode. I was even tempted to write in
to tell you of the hilarity of a work wife
relationship I had. I had yet to write in though,
because I always think I'm going to send in an
anecdote or comment and don't. Then today, much to my horror,
my work wife for the past four plus years, walked
into my office with the look on her face and
(44:27):
closed the door behind her. She wanted to let me
know before anyone else knew that she was resigning. It
was a sudden opportunity and she should totally take it,
even though she wasn't looking. But this is going to
be hard. I moved on internally a year or so ago,
but that did nothing but increase our work day and
after hours digital communication and tendency to crack jokes in
(44:48):
and disrupt staff meetings. We work in behavioral health and
function on many treatment teams seamlessly, so I'm mourning from
my loss of work spouse and the ease with which
we work together to serve our joint clients. I also
have to assist in breaking to these clients that this
change is happening without looking like it affects me personally.
I'm so thrilled for her to take the opportunity she
(45:09):
stumbled upon, but it makes me sad for me. I
know that's selfish, but I'll just admit to being selfish
right now. Heavy sigh. Thank you ladies for the awesome
podcast and the timely episode. I'm going to go pout
about this further. I'm sorry, Jody. Oh and it's so understandable, Jody.
I don't definitely don't beat yourself up over feeling selfish
(45:30):
at all about it. Um. I also have a work
wife letter to share. This one comes from Maggie, who writes,
while listening to your latest episode on work wives and
work relationships, I had a feeling like I was the
protagonist in a teen movie where the book we're reading
an English class actually reflects what's going on in my
(45:50):
own life. To explain, a few months back, I started
a new job that I love, and as you were
describing the different types of work relationships that people have,
it fell like you were describing my new office. There
are definitely a few pairs of work spouses, both sexual
orientation matching and not, and there are quite a few
groups of work besties. I'm new, so I would classify
(46:12):
myself more as an acquaintance right now, because work spouses
take time. But I think I have a mentor mentee
relationship with the woman who trained me When I started,
she was in the midst of being promoted to a
more supervisory role, and I was the first new hired
that she trained completely on her own. I love my
new job, and it's the most supportive environment I've ever
worked in. However, I did also recognize one or two
(46:35):
people that would match your description of the toxic personality.
There was another new hire that started a few weeks
after me that I frankly can't bear to stand to
be around. She complains constantly as a generally snotty attitude
that she miscategorizes as being quote unquote specie and will
argue when receiving instruction. After listening to your work relationship
(46:56):
episode in the part about building bridges with people in
order to have better working relationship, I decided to give
her another chance for both readers, and in an effort
to bond, I showed her a grammatical error I found
in the book I was currently reading, and she rolled
her eyes at me and insisted that authors don't have
to follow quote those little rules. I have a bachelor's
in English and a graduate certificate in publishing, so that
(47:18):
comment really great it on me. So in short, I've
come to the conclusion that not everyone is destined to
be work besties, and sometimes the smartest move is keeping
all contact purely work related to avoid becoming something much
worse than an acquaintance, the work friend of me. Well,
thank you so much, Maggie, and I agree. Not everyone
(47:38):
can be your work spouse or even your work friend,
and yeah, having a work front of me is the worst.
So keep your letters coming and be sure to tune
into Part two coming out in a couple of days
for links to all of our social media as well
as all of our blogs, studios and podcasts with our
sources so you can learn more about the National Organization
(48:02):
for Women and its history. Head on over to stuff
Mom Never Told You dot com for more on this
and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff works
dot com
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