July 13, 2015 • 40 mins
Bedridden following a difficult childbirth, radio producer and author Hillary Frank started a podcast as a "3 a.m. bedside companion" for parents like her who might feel alone in navigating new motherhood and fatherhood. Cristen talks with Hillary about the evolution of The Longest Shortest Time, childbirth taboos and tips for bridging the parent vs. non-parent divide.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to stuff Mom Never told You From how Supports
dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen
and I'm Caroline, and today we are so excited to
be talking to host of w n y c s
The Longest Shortest Time and also this American life producer,
(00:27):
Hillary Frank. That's right, Christen's conversation with Hillary is kicking
off podcast summer camp. So basically, this summer we are
talking to a bunch of fellow lady podcasters about what
they do, why they do it, where their interests lie,
and how they got to where they are. Basically, I
(00:48):
think we kind of selfishly wanted to hear that from
other podcasters. And when it comes to podcasts that I
personally love, Caroline The Longest Shortest Time is definitely at
the top of the list because it feels a lot
like the kinds of in depth, candid listener stories that
(01:09):
we get so often, and The Longest Shortest Time is
also focused around parenthood and also just familihood more generally,
so it really feels like a kindred podcast to me. Well, Kristen,
how did you get interested in it? If it is
a podcast about parenting? Neither one of us is a parent. Well,
(01:31):
it was actually a parent friend who first mentioned it
to me and said, you have to talk about this.
They talked about all sorts of things that you cover on,
stuff I've never told you, and so I did, and
I was hooked because it very much does have and
almost this American life feel to it, because Hillary has
such an incredible way of engaging her guests to really
(01:58):
mind the depths of what it means to be a parent,
beyond what we normally read on parenting blogs or in
all the different parenting books you might see. It really
gets to the nitty gritty of what it's like and
how unglamorous and difficult it often is, and also too
(02:19):
incredibly rewarding of course. Well, so what was your favorite
part of speaking with Hillary? Well, selfishly, because like you mentioned,
I am not a parent at this point, but you
and I are at an age when friends of ours
are becoming parents. And one thing that I was so
glad to get her insight on was bridging the parent
(02:39):
nonparent divide, because I think a lot of times, especially
in pop culture, we see this division between oh here
the non parents who are still cool and we can
hang out as late as we want to, and then
there the loom parents, and all you want to do
is talk about their babies and play dates and things
like that, and you can't possibly get along. How could
(03:00):
friendships survived that? Um? But Hillary talks a lot about
how it is absolutely possible to survive the survive kids
getting in the way of of your lady friendships or
just general couple of friendships, or I'm just saying friendship,
different types of friendships, the various classifications of friendships. Yeah,
(03:21):
that's good to know. I'm actually getting dinner with one
of my best lady friends in second grade here pretty soon,
and she is about to have her third So that's
good to know that there's hope first remain friends and
other I was gonna say twenty something years, but now
it's been more than twenty something years. Friendship is more
powerful than baby scare one. Yeah, babies are very powerful.
(03:45):
They're very very weak. They don't can't even stand I
don't have much next strength. They can't even feed themselves. Well.
To kick things off, Hillary is going to introduce herself
and how she got started in radio, which then lad
to podcasting and the longest shortest time, So, dear listeners,
(04:05):
please enjoy my chat with Hillary Frank. My name's Hillary Frank,
and I have been a radio producer for sixteen years. UM.
I started out UM doing some work for This American
Life as a freelancer, and then moved on to freelancing
(04:26):
for a lot of different radio shows. UM. And I've
also written three young adult novels UM that that I
illustrated my degrees actually in UM drawing in drawing naked
people like yeah yeah. I studied UM like anatomical drawing
(04:46):
UM at the New York Academy of Art, and while
I was there, got my first story on This American
Life and wound up going into radio. Well, I have
to ask, then, what was your first story on this
American Life? My first story was something I put together
using a boom box and answering machine micro cassette answering machine. UM.
(05:07):
Those were the tools of the day, I guess, or
what was accessible to me as someone who didn't know
how to make professional radio. And I did a story
about my two friends in college who pretended to be
a giant. One got on the other's shoulders and they
would wrap a blanket around themselves and wear like a
long UM kind of kiss style wig um, and they
(05:30):
called themselves Giant Man and um. They would like show
up on the Quad at night and they would post
these like posters flyers all over campus saying like, uh,
Giant Man will be appearing on the Quad, and he
would he would show up and just be like I
am giant, I am huge, and I'm a benevolent giant Man,
(05:52):
and I have come to shower you with butter Scotch candy.
And he would like throw butter scotch candy at the crowd.
But the thing was that everyone who didn't actually see
Giant Man believed that he was real and um and
there and it was in. People believed it so much
that like there were professors discussing in philosophy classes whether
(06:13):
or not um, we were exploiting a freak of nature. Wow. Yeah,
So I interviewed my friend who was the top half
of Giant Man. Oh man, that sounds fantastic. Um. Well,
for listeners who might not be familiar with the Longest
Shortest Time, can you tell us a little bit about
it and where the idea came from? Yeah? So, um,
(06:36):
The Longest Shortest Time is a podcast I started when
my daughter was about ten months old. UM, I had
a really rough delivery and recovery UM from childbirth. I
had an episiotomy, which is you know when they cut
you to help get the baby out, and then my
stitches busted um a week later and I needed to
(07:00):
get recut and stitched um and that was like actually
more traumatic than anything that had calmed down in the
in the actual birth. And I wasn't able to walk
UM for the first two months of my daughter's life.
And I couldn't like I couldn't do the kinds of
things that you want to be able to do when
you're a new mom, Like UM, I couldn't bounce her.
I couldn't um get into the right position to breastfeed her.
(07:23):
I couldn't change her diaper. I couldn't give her a bath,
and like those are things that not everyone relish is doing,
but like you want to be able to take care
of your kid when when you first have one. And UM,
I also couldn't go upstairs. We lived in an apartment
UM where our bedroom was on I was upstairs, in
the bathroom was downstairs, so I I slept in our
(07:45):
very dark, tiny living room on a air mattress for
the first eight weeks of her life. UM. So it
was like a really dark time. And we moved four
months after she was born to a town where I
didn't know any body, and it looked to me like
everyone was having an easier time than I was. UM
(08:05):
And you know, I would I wanted to make friends,
and so it would like, let's say I would be
at a coffee shop and I would see somebody UM
holding a very tiny baby, and I'd be like, wow,
look at you. You're you're doing it. That's great. And
they would be like, well, it's been two weeks, and
and for me, it was just such a like uh,
like a punch in the gut, and I felt like,
(08:26):
how was I going to continue to have a conversation
with anyone like that? UM And So I felt an
urgent need to know that other people were struggling, even
if it wasn't the same exact struggle that I had.
I needed to know that it wasn't super easy for
everybody else. UM. And I also knew that UM as
as an experienced radio producer, I knew that having a
(08:47):
microphone kind of gives you license to ask somebody anything.
So that's what I did. I started um, interviewing people
about their struggles and and and in the beginning, it
started out as this very kind of selfish thing that
was very cathartic for me and then and and podcasting
wasn't so big back then, and so um it felt
(09:09):
almost like this private thing, even though I was putting
it out there. And I said at the end of
the show, Um, if you want to tell your story
of a surprising struggle in parenthood, email me. And I
started getting emails right away from strangers who wanted to
talk to me. And it started out with us like
coordinating during our kids nap times, really like getting twenty
(09:32):
minutes in here and there to talk to people. And
these like mostly strangers to me, would wind up crying.
Almost everyone cried in that first year. And Um, and
what I learned was that it was becoming cathartic to
other people as well. What do you think, then, is
the root of that catharsis? Why why is talking about
(09:57):
the experiences so particularly cathartical, especially during that period of
time as being new parents? Yeah? So, UM, I think
that the first thing you want to hear when you're
going through something difficult, no matter what it is, is
that you want to you want to hear someone telling you, um,
that you're not alone. And that's what UM I think
(10:18):
the podcast had the power to do on a very
basic level, was just someone in your ear being like,
you can calm down, take a deep breath, You're not
the only one. UM. And then and then the other
thing that it does is that, UM, when you hear
that someone had a struggle that um is different from yours,
maybe just as intense, but different, it reminds you that, um,
(10:40):
you had an easier time with something else, something that
they didn't have an easy time with. And UM, I
think it can be really nice to remember that too. UM.
So yeah, I think I think it kind of does
these two things. And I don't think it's necessarily particular
to new parenthood. I think anyone who's going through a
(11:01):
time of crisis, well it seems like you know, the
longest shortest time really focuses in on that need for
that kind of that kind of real talk of understanding
each other's struggles and the strengths that you might have
that you didn't realize that you had. And when it
comes to childbirth and parenting, at least from I have
(11:24):
more of an outside perspective. I'm not a parent, but
it seems like there's so much information these days of
what to expect when you're expecting, and you know, all
of all of the things that you can read about
how things will go, and yet it still seems like
there's this vacuum, this communication vacuum of what it's actually like.
(11:46):
And I was wondering why you think that might be.
For all the information we have, why is it perhaps
still I don't know, hard to talk about or UM. Yeah,
well it's really scary to like talk about vaginal injuries,
I mean, UM, and and that's and and there's a
(12:06):
good reason for that. I mean, I think that women
who talk about it really run the risk of being
called hysterical and in uh ingrateful for UM, especially like
if you have a healthy child, there's a lot of
people who will tell you you should just be happy
that you had a healthy child. And I'm of course
(12:29):
incredibly grateful that, like endlessly grateful that I have a
healthy child. But I don't think that should negate the
fact that, UM, there can be some real physical and
psychological damage done UM two people in childbirth, and UM
that that needs to be dealt with um. I mean,
(12:50):
I think if you out yourself as someone who is
dealing with postpartum depression or anxiety or um a vaginal injury, um,
you are putting yourself in a position of seeming hysterical
and and and and like like you don't know what
(13:11):
really matters, and like I it took me three years
to find help for my injury. Um I was. I
was in pain for that long and it wasn't really
something I felt like I could talk about fully until
I had gotten healed and I was on the other
side of it. But um, yeah, it's just there's a
real stigma to talking about it. Do you think it's
(13:33):
maybe part of a broader cultural problem we have with
not taking women's health concerns, whether they're physical or mental seriously. Yeah,
I do. It's it's a hard thing to understand if
you haven't been through it, and there's not enough people
advocating for the fact that this stuff is real and
(13:55):
it does real damage to people, and it's sort of
easy to walk around to protect and like stuff isn't
happening inside your head um or inside a part of
your body that nobody can see. Um, And so without
those kind of strong voices out there being advocates for
this kind of stuff. It's hard, I think for other
people to imagine that it's real. Well, and do you
(14:17):
think there's also an external pressure put on new moms
in particular to be extremely happy and like you said,
very grateful and everything's fine and and what a joyous time. Definitely.
I mean it's interesting. I feel like parenting media most
(14:37):
often is either you know, that kind of thing like,
yeah you have you have to be happy about everything, um,
or kind of braggy about what a bad mom you are.
And they both kind of rubbed me the wrong way, um,
Because I just think being a parent is a complex
(14:57):
part of life, just like anything, and so why can't
we talk about it in a complicated way. Well, it's
also been interesting to see, um, in celebrity culture, how
there's been this recent obsession with these new celebrity moms
who don't look like they ever were pregnant at any
(15:18):
point at all. And it's it's so it's not only
this cultural pressure to be super happy but also look fantastic,
super thin exactly. And then and the thing that people
need to remember is that number one that's there, like
full time job, is to look awesome, and they have
(15:40):
people watching their babies while they do that. Um. And
the other thing is I think that that's really dangerous
for the media to be congratulating celebrity moms for looking
amazing after having a baby, because it makes everyone else
feel like they need to pressure themselves into doing that too. Yeah.
Definitely seems like the phrase pre baby body is a
(16:04):
bit misleading for for women. Um, well I just did.
I just did an episode with Jean Marie who um
the style and beauty blogger for Jezebel, and Um, she
kind of shamed me into talking about my pre baby body,
like I'm five years in now, and I was talking
(16:27):
about how I was like holding onto clothes that I
was hoping I would fit into, and she was like,
five years later, forget it, get rid of those clothes.
They're not even in style anymore anyway. And it was
really helpful to hear someone say that if they sort
of allow you, you know, give you permission to let go. Yeah, yeah,
(16:47):
to just be like, this is what you look like now,
and it's fine, just get over it. Well, have you
gotten rid of any of the clothes? I did? I
packed like after that literally that weekend, I packed the
clothes up and I donated them. Wow. Yeah, that's awesome, congratulations,
thank you. It felt really liberating. I bet um, Well,
(17:09):
you mentioned parenting media and sort of that that emphasis
on happy, perfect mom versus bad mom, and there are
just all sorts of just general commandments that seems like
in parenting media of how you should raise your child.
And it seems like the longest Shortest time really makes
(17:29):
a concerted effort to emphasize more community versus commandment. And
I was wondering if it's ever tricky to maintain that
judgment free, accepting tone and atmosphere both in your own
podcast conversations but also too in the longest shortest time
(17:51):
listener community interactions. Yeah. So, UM, I think it's just
human nature to judge and to look at someone and
be like, I wouldn't do it that way. But I
also think it's important to remember that, Um, maybe if
you were that exact person, with their exact experiences and
their exact children, you might do it their way. So
(18:12):
so that I tried to remind myself that when I
started when those thoughts creep up on me. But in
the podcast, um, there was one of my first guests
was this woman Kate, who UM she was very adamantly
no cry with with putting her kid to bed, and
I had done cry it out and had worked really
(18:33):
well for me, and UM. I did this interview with
her where we talked about those two different things, and
when I listened back to it a couple of years
after the fact, I was so, I felt so cringe
e because I felt like I sounded so smug and
like I was judging her. And I remembered not feeling
(18:54):
that way at the time, but I feel like I
sounded that way, and I thought, oh, she must have
felt so terrible. UM. And so I called her back
up and brought her back on the podcast and we
talked about it, UM, and she said she hadn't perceived
it that way, but I know that other that listeners
had and UM. So the conversation we wound up having
(19:15):
was um that she had felt like she because we
kind of became friends after that first interview, and she
felt like she could never tell me her birth story
because hers kind of went well and she felt bad
sharing it with me. And I was like, no, you know,
now that you've told me that, now I feel better
about sharing my triumphs with you, like we each had
(19:37):
a triumph and it was different, UM, just like we
each had different struggles and it was like a nice,
really nice bonding moment UM. So it was sort of
a way of using that judge stuff uh as as
to our advantage. UM. And then you know, we have
two official Facebook groups UM. The Mama's Group is a
(20:00):
twelve thousand strong now and the Papa's Group, I think
is about a thousand, and then listeners have generated over
eighty subgroups because they like the non judge tone of
the show and they want to use it to talk
about specific topics UM. And for a really long time
we are rules in the group are uh no soliciting
(20:22):
and no UM personal attacks, and we have no tolerance
for either one. And for a while we just didn't
even have to address any of it. And then maybe
like six months into having the group, UM, it started
growing really quickly because the podcast started getting more popular,
(20:42):
and every time the show gets featured somewhere else, it's
great for the show, it's great for for the longevity
of the show UM, and new people come in who
are not at all used to this non judgy tone
that we have and they're used to their other Facebook
groups where they do attack each other, and so they
come in and they started they start start up with
(21:03):
people and um. The thing that I've found is that
the group members are so protective of this tone that, um,
it's pretty self regulating. They say, you know, this isn't allowed,
and generally, um, the person, the offending person will remove
themselves because then they start feeling attacked. Um Or if
(21:25):
it doesn't resolve that way, then you know, we remove them.
But it doesn't happen too much. Yeah, I mean, it's
and it's great to hear when audiences sort of do
do your work for you in the sense of protecting
the sacred space that that you've created. Um. So, some
of my friends honestly think it's a little odd that
(21:47):
I listened to the longest shortest time because they asked
me what it's about, and I'm like, well, it's about parenting,
and they're like, well, that's weird. You don't have kids.
It's like, well, it's parenting, but it's about it's really
just about people and growing up. And that got me
thinking about this tendency, especially the older I get to
divide the adult world and especially women into parents, non parents,
(22:12):
mothers versus non mothers. And I was just wondering, kind
of what you think about that, of whether I don't know,
whether we sometimes or maybe cloistering ourselves too much based
on our child free by choice or proud mom kind
of identities. Yeah, I mean, I think, first of all,
(22:34):
I want to say that, Um, I think of the
show as like, the parenting stuff is just a launching
point to talk about a whole bunch of other things,
you know, to talk about the big human stuff, the relationships,
the sex, the work, the death. We cover all of
that stuff and the only requirement is that there has
(22:54):
to be a family relationship in there. And I don't
know why we get this a lot Like my my
producer is not a mother, um, and she's in her
early thirties, and she says that she goes to parties
and people will come up and like whisper to her
like I actually like the podcast you work on, And
she's like, why is that a secret? You know? Like, um,
(23:17):
why is it weird that you would like to listen
to stuff about family relationships? We all have families in
one way or another. Anyway that said, I think it's
really it's it's interesting like that we get divided in
this way. And I think, um, you know, female bonds
tend to be really really strong, um between friends, and
(23:38):
when one person has a baby and the other one doesn't,
or their timing is different, um, it can really throw
a wrench in the relationship because people feel like they
don't get each other that well. UM. And I think
like it does put your life in a in a
different place, um, especially in the very beginning when you
(23:59):
know you're not sleeping at all. But I've also I
think it doesn't have to be a complete end to
the relationship. I don't think you have to be divided
by I'm only friends with other moms and my former
friends who who my friends who didn't have kids, like
kept their nonparent friends like. I think there are ways,
(24:22):
there are new ways to find of being adult friends
and and you have to be creative. And I do
think that a lot of the conversations we have on
the podcast, people have said to me who don't have children, like,
you're making me understand my friends lives so much more
and empathize so much more. And now I feel like
I can be friends with them. We had UM. This
(24:44):
one woman, Rachel Garcia, she's a musician UM in California,
and she and her partner, UM don't plan to have children.
And she always sort of was she and her partner
were like weirded out by their friends who started having kids.
And then she started listening to the show and she
felt like she got it so much that they released
their debut album and one of the songs was a
(25:06):
lullaby she wrote for her friend's baby, UM because of
what she learned on the podcast. And so, UM, I
don't know, I don't think it has to be so divisive. Well,
what would you recommend then to to say someone in
my situation without kids who's girlfriends are starting to have
(25:27):
kids in terms of maintaining that relationship and and not,
like you said, allowing it to sort of drive a
wedge between you. I would say, UM, joon't take it
personally that they don't have as much time for you anymore.
It's not because they don't want to, it's because they can't.
And UM, if they're expressing interest in maintaining the friendship,
(25:51):
see if you can cater to them, UM, at least
in that first year or two, UM, offer to come
over and bring dinner or come over and cook with them,
or you know, bring the wine and stay late after
the baby goes to bed. Like my husband and I
have this thing we do where we live in New
Jersey and we have our friends come out to New
(26:15):
Jersey from New York and spend the weekend and do
like a grown up sleepover. And you know, my kid
goes to bed at eight and then we stay up
in party and it's the best. So that that that's
my recommendation. And then and they'll come around if you
keep that up. That that's going to mean a lot
to them if you do that, and once they're able
to like have more of a life that resembles what
(26:37):
they used to, then they'll be coming back to you. Well,
and who could turn down an invitation to a grown
up sleepover? That sounds yeah. Well, you mentioned the Papa's
group on the longest shortst Time Facebook page, um, and
it reminds me of how we have heard from so
so many gentlemen in our stuff I'm gonna or told
(27:00):
you stent asking for well what about stuff Dad never
told you? And so I'm wondering, you know, when it
comes to these conversations about um parenting and family dynamics.
Do you think that men and dads need more attention?
Perhaps that's really funny, I UM. I asked my husband
(27:22):
this question on the train on the way in to
the city this morning, and he just looked at me
and very flatly said no. And I said why not?
And he was like, because if there's stuff I want
to know about parenting, I just go to look at
general parenting stuff. I don't need stuff for dad's. Um.
I don't know if that's how everyone feels, but I
(27:43):
do think, UM, that there's definitely more of an urgency
that I see from women feeling like the stuff that
they're dealing with really needs attention. The dad's, I think
need more need bonding with each other. And when you phreeze,
it as like stuff dad never told you. I mean,
(28:05):
you know, God, this stuff that dads don't tell their kids,
there's so much right But UM, so maybe there's maybe
there's more stuff that kids need from their dad's. I
don't know. I don't know, um, how much of a
demand there is for dads to be catered to in
(28:25):
parenting media though. Well, speaking of dads, and we just
did a podcast on this so I have to ask you, um,
do you have any thoughts on dad bods. I don't know.
I think I just think that they're that again, it's
like there's not as much pressure on dad's to look
a certain way, you know. Well, and especially after listening
(28:50):
to this past week, I was I was binge listening
to a number of old podcast episodes and after listening
to one on sex after childbirth and thinking about the
idea of of mom body and how just the entire
thing is so much different and far more complex than
(29:11):
this presentation of what a dad bought is. Um, it
was it was thought provoking, I'll say that. Yeah. I
mean it's like it's like letting yourself go versus like
stuff that was done to you, you know what I mean,
a complete transformation in a way. Yeah, And I don't
I don't want to like be little dads and what
(29:34):
they go through. They go through a lot um. But
I'm just saying I just feel a lot more urgency
from moms. Well, since this is stuff mom never told you,
I wanted to ask whether there is a stuff Mom
never told you? Um, just something just something generally that
(29:54):
you especially want to ensure that you do tell your daughter, Sasha. Yeah. UM,
so my mom was was pretty um open with me
about the stuff that maybe other moms aren't open about,
like uh, body stuff and sex stuff and whatever tending
(30:17):
to your mental health needs. UM. But she grew up
in a time where gender roles were a lot more
um traditional, and so like she and my dad got
married right out of college and um, so she never
lived on her own and never had to really become
(30:38):
economically educated. And UM, I did live on my own,
and I needed to figure that stuff out on my own.
And so I would want to pass that information onto
my daughter. UM. And I also would want her to
know that if she winds up in a relationship with
(30:58):
a man, that men do right thank you notes. So
my mom, in her traditional ways, UM, places a lot
of importance on thank you notes and um like when
I got married and when I had a baby, UM,
she was kind of stunned by the fact that my
husband split the thank you note writing with me. UM.
(31:20):
And so I would want my daughter to know that, yes,
you can expect your partner to write thank you notes
to egalitarian thank you notes. I love it. I have
a wedding coming up next year, so I will remember that, Hillary, Well, say,
now when it when it comes to the longest shortest
(31:43):
time catalog and all of the different things, the different
people that you've talked about, and the experiences that people
have shared, is there one that stands out in your
mind that has really made a resounding impression on you?
Mm hmm. Recently, UM, I talked to this woman, Melinda.
(32:07):
She is African American and UM had struggled with anxiety
her entire life and she uh and then when she
became pregnant, her anxiety kind of like became debilitating. But
she felt like she couldn't talk about it because in
her community. UM, there's a real stigma to talking about
(32:30):
mental health issues. UM. And I just thought she was
so brave to come out and talk about it. UM.
And it really really resonated with people of all different cultures.
And it was really amazing to see how her telling
her story could could just make other people feel what
(32:52):
I what I wanted to feel when I first started
the podcast, which was not alone. UM. So yeah, I
think I think that one this has been sticking with me. Well,
it's interesting you mentioned that one because I also just
listen to that and it had a huge impact on
(33:13):
me as well because her story, I mean, it made
me think about all of my fears about the possibility
of if I become pregnant, if I become a mother,
and how like my anxiety will interact with that. And
I was sobbing on and off like listening to it,
and was just so grateful too to hear her story
(33:36):
and for it to be told so honestly as well.
So so thank you for sharing that too. Thanks, thanks
so uh well for listeners who want to know where
they can go to learn more about you in the
longest shortest time and also about your offline events because
(33:57):
it is not just a podcast, you do meet ups
in person. UM. Where can they go to find all
that information? Yeah, so they should go to the Longest
Shortest Time dot com UM. And we take stories from listeners.
We take UM stories from parents about their relationships with
their kids, and we also take stories from kids and
grown kids about their parents UM. And we also we
(34:20):
have an app that that you can find on our
website UM where you can record answers to our questions
really easily and your voice can wind up on our show.
And we also do these events that we call speed
dating for Mom Friends, which is so that moms can
meet each other. It's a it's a non judge environment
and um, it's really fun. People come. And we made
(34:43):
a signature cocktail for the last one called Sex on
the living Room Floor, and um, we could sort of
take the guesswork out of making mom friends. Fantastic. Um,
I'm curious though, what was in what goes into Sex
on the living Room Floor. It's vodka and club soda
with fresh orange juice and grapefruit juice. And to top
(35:06):
it all off, there was there was a lemon wheel.
But also, um, a sexy lady like a like a
naked sexy lady. Stir well, that's that's very refreshing. Well,
(35:30):
thanks so much to Hillary Frank for coming on and
speaking with Kristen and enlightening all of us about parenthood
the nitty gritty, like Kristen said, and basically filling us
in on how she got to where she is. And
if you want to learn more about Hillary Frank and
the books she's written, the radio she's produced, the podcast
and also public speaking that she does, head on over
(35:54):
to her website, Hillary Frank dot com and for more
info and more import and lead to listen to the
Longest Shortest Time. You can head to Longest Shortest Time
dot com and we'll have links to all of this
stuff and also some of my favorite Longest Shortest Time
(36:14):
episodes on this podcast post over at Stuff Mom Never
Told You dot com. So again, huge thanks to Hillary
for taking the time to chat with us today and
kick off our podcast Summer Camp Summer Serious Spectacular Swizzler.
I don't think what is that the actual name of it? Well, no,
(36:35):
that's the name of the themed restaurant that you and
I are going to open. Yes, yeah, so podcasts buffet
all you can eat so great, please guard and all
deep fried earbuds love it. Well. Now, we're curious to
hear from listeners about your parenting stories. Do you feel
like a lot of times parenting advice glosses over what
(37:00):
it's really like to make that transition into parenthood um,
and also if you have any tips on bridging that
parent non parent divide as well, we'd love to hear
from you. We always love your stories. Mom Stuff at
how stuff Works dot com is our email address. You
can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or messages
(37:21):
on Facebook, and we've got a couple of messages to
share with you right now. Well, I have a letter
here from Michelle about our sci Fi Summer Reading episode.
She says, I love your discussion about women in sci
(37:42):
fi books. I'm a writer myself, and I gained my
love for reading sci fi and fantasy from my mother.
I was so excited to hear some of my favorites mentioned,
and I've learned some new names. I wanted to share
another author with you and your listeners. Mercedes Lackey is
an amazing fantasy writer, and her Harold Mage series is
where I first encountered a same sex relationship. I think
(38:02):
the book was Magics Pawn and I was in high school.
It made me pause when I came across it, but
I recalled that the relationship was handled in a very
matter of fact way. The more I read it, the
more normal quote unquote it seemed to me her writing
opened my mind to something I had never encountered before
and helped to set me up for acceptance. Sci Fi
and fantasy are definitely a great arena to explore the
(38:24):
unfamiliar in a way that feels safe. I love you both,
keep up the great conversations. So thanks Michelle, So I've
got a letter here from Amanda on our Judy Bloom
summer reading episode. Because one summer reading episode was just
not enough this summer. So Amanda wrote, thank you so
much for the Judy Bloom episode for me. The timing
(38:46):
couldn't have been better. Just last week, I decided I
wanted to read some of j blues older books. After
learning that there weren't any copies of India Unlikely event
currently available at my local library, I decided to read
Forever and Aly loved it. Two days later, I went
back to the library and checked out Wifey. I'm twenty
six years old and this was my first time reading
(39:07):
either book. I'm not sure why, but I never really
got into Judy Blue when I was a kid. I
went to a Catholic grade school and my parents were
pretty conservative, so I think I was just never exposed
to some of her more mature books. I was struck
by how progressive and relevant Forever seemed, despite being written
forty years ago. I just loved the message that people
fall in love, have sex, breakup, and move on and
(39:29):
that's okay. It's such an ordinary story, but one that
would have been so helpful for me to read as
a teenager. I hope I can share it with my
future children some day. I enjoyed Wifey even more. Kristen,
I too love a good oppressed housewives story, so this
was right up my alley. I would love to hear
what you think of it when you read it. I
(39:50):
think I read this book at the exact right time
of my life. I'm not sure if I would have
appreciated it as a teenager or even as a younger adult.
As a young married lady, I found it totally fascinating.
I can't wait to get my hands on more. J Blue,
and thank you Amanda for your letter and everybody else
who's written into us. Mom Stuff at how stuff works
dot com is our email address and for links to
(40:12):
all of our social media as well as all of
our blogs, videos, and podcast with this one with links
to the longest shortest time so you can give it
a listen and fall in love with it like I have.
Head on over to stuff mom Never Told You dot
com for more on this and thousands of other topics.
(40:32):
Doesn't how stuff Works dot com
Welcome to stuff Mom Never told You From how Supports
dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen
and I'm Caroline, and today we are so excited to
be talking to host of w n y c s
The Longest Shortest Time and also this American life producer,
(00:27):
Hillary Frank. That's right, Christen's conversation with Hillary is kicking
off podcast summer camp. So basically, this summer we are
talking to a bunch of fellow lady podcasters about what
they do, why they do it, where their interests lie,
and how they got to where they are. Basically, I
(00:48):
think we kind of selfishly wanted to hear that from
other podcasters. And when it comes to podcasts that I
personally love, Caroline The Longest Shortest Time is definitely at
the top of the list because it feels a lot
like the kinds of in depth, candid listener stories that
(01:09):
we get so often, and The Longest Shortest Time is
also focused around parenthood and also just familihood more generally,
so it really feels like a kindred podcast to me. Well, Kristen,
how did you get interested in it? If it is
a podcast about parenting? Neither one of us is a parent. Well,
(01:31):
it was actually a parent friend who first mentioned it
to me and said, you have to talk about this.
They talked about all sorts of things that you cover on,
stuff I've never told you, and so I did, and
I was hooked because it very much does have and
almost this American life feel to it, because Hillary has
such an incredible way of engaging her guests to really
(01:58):
mind the depths of what it means to be a parent,
beyond what we normally read on parenting blogs or in
all the different parenting books you might see. It really
gets to the nitty gritty of what it's like and
how unglamorous and difficult it often is, and also too
(02:19):
incredibly rewarding of course. Well, so what was your favorite
part of speaking with Hillary? Well, selfishly, because like you mentioned,
I am not a parent at this point, but you
and I are at an age when friends of ours
are becoming parents. And one thing that I was so
glad to get her insight on was bridging the parent
(02:39):
nonparent divide, because I think a lot of times, especially
in pop culture, we see this division between oh here
the non parents who are still cool and we can
hang out as late as we want to, and then
there the loom parents, and all you want to do
is talk about their babies and play dates and things
like that, and you can't possibly get along. How could
(03:00):
friendships survived that? Um? But Hillary talks a lot about
how it is absolutely possible to survive the survive kids
getting in the way of of your lady friendships or
just general couple of friendships, or I'm just saying friendship,
different types of friendships, the various classifications of friendships. Yeah,
(03:21):
that's good to know. I'm actually getting dinner with one
of my best lady friends in second grade here pretty soon,
and she is about to have her third So that's
good to know that there's hope first remain friends and
other I was gonna say twenty something years, but now
it's been more than twenty something years. Friendship is more
powerful than baby scare one. Yeah, babies are very powerful.
(03:45):
They're very very weak. They don't can't even stand I
don't have much next strength. They can't even feed themselves. Well.
To kick things off, Hillary is going to introduce herself
and how she got started in radio, which then lad
to podcasting and the longest shortest time, So, dear listeners,
(04:05):
please enjoy my chat with Hillary Frank. My name's Hillary Frank,
and I have been a radio producer for sixteen years. UM.
I started out UM doing some work for This American
Life as a freelancer, and then moved on to freelancing
(04:26):
for a lot of different radio shows. UM. And I've
also written three young adult novels UM that that I
illustrated my degrees actually in UM drawing in drawing naked
people like yeah yeah. I studied UM like anatomical drawing
(04:46):
UM at the New York Academy of Art, and while
I was there, got my first story on This American
Life and wound up going into radio. Well, I have
to ask, then, what was your first story on this
American Life? My first story was something I put together
using a boom box and answering machine micro cassette answering machine. UM.
(05:07):
Those were the tools of the day, I guess, or
what was accessible to me as someone who didn't know
how to make professional radio. And I did a story
about my two friends in college who pretended to be
a giant. One got on the other's shoulders and they
would wrap a blanket around themselves and wear like a
long UM kind of kiss style wig um, and they
(05:30):
called themselves Giant Man and um. They would like show
up on the Quad at night and they would post
these like posters flyers all over campus saying like, uh,
Giant Man will be appearing on the Quad, and he
would he would show up and just be like I
am giant, I am huge, and I'm a benevolent giant Man,
(05:52):
and I have come to shower you with butter Scotch candy.
And he would like throw butter scotch candy at the crowd.
But the thing was that everyone who didn't actually see
Giant Man believed that he was real and um and
there and it was in. People believed it so much
that like there were professors discussing in philosophy classes whether
(06:13):
or not um, we were exploiting a freak of nature. Wow. Yeah,
So I interviewed my friend who was the top half
of Giant Man. Oh man, that sounds fantastic. Um. Well,
for listeners who might not be familiar with the Longest
Shortest Time, can you tell us a little bit about
it and where the idea came from? Yeah? So, um,
(06:36):
The Longest Shortest Time is a podcast I started when
my daughter was about ten months old. UM, I had
a really rough delivery and recovery UM from childbirth. I
had an episiotomy, which is you know when they cut
you to help get the baby out, and then my
stitches busted um a week later and I needed to
(07:00):
get recut and stitched um and that was like actually
more traumatic than anything that had calmed down in the
in the actual birth. And I wasn't able to walk
UM for the first two months of my daughter's life.
And I couldn't like I couldn't do the kinds of
things that you want to be able to do when
you're a new mom, Like UM, I couldn't bounce her.
I couldn't um get into the right position to breastfeed her.
(07:23):
I couldn't change her diaper. I couldn't give her a bath,
and like those are things that not everyone relish is doing,
but like you want to be able to take care
of your kid when when you first have one. And UM,
I also couldn't go upstairs. We lived in an apartment
UM where our bedroom was on I was upstairs, in
the bathroom was downstairs, so I I slept in our
(07:45):
very dark, tiny living room on a air mattress for
the first eight weeks of her life. UM. So it
was like a really dark time. And we moved four
months after she was born to a town where I
didn't know any body, and it looked to me like
everyone was having an easier time than I was. UM
(08:05):
And you know, I would I wanted to make friends,
and so it would like, let's say I would be
at a coffee shop and I would see somebody UM
holding a very tiny baby, and I'd be like, wow,
look at you. You're you're doing it. That's great. And
they would be like, well, it's been two weeks, and
and for me, it was just such a like uh,
like a punch in the gut, and I felt like,
(08:26):
how was I going to continue to have a conversation
with anyone like that? UM And So I felt an
urgent need to know that other people were struggling, even
if it wasn't the same exact struggle that I had.
I needed to know that it wasn't super easy for
everybody else. UM. And I also knew that UM as
as an experienced radio producer, I knew that having a
(08:47):
microphone kind of gives you license to ask somebody anything.
So that's what I did. I started um, interviewing people
about their struggles and and and in the beginning, it
started out as this very kind of selfish thing that
was very cathartic for me and then and and podcasting
wasn't so big back then, and so um it felt
(09:09):
almost like this private thing, even though I was putting
it out there. And I said at the end of
the show, Um, if you want to tell your story
of a surprising struggle in parenthood, email me. And I
started getting emails right away from strangers who wanted to
talk to me. And it started out with us like
coordinating during our kids nap times, really like getting twenty
(09:32):
minutes in here and there to talk to people. And
these like mostly strangers to me, would wind up crying.
Almost everyone cried in that first year. And Um, and
what I learned was that it was becoming cathartic to
other people as well. What do you think, then, is
the root of that catharsis? Why why is talking about
(09:57):
the experiences so particularly cathartical, especially during that period of
time as being new parents? Yeah? So, UM, I think
that the first thing you want to hear when you're
going through something difficult, no matter what it is, is
that you want to you want to hear someone telling you, um,
that you're not alone. And that's what UM I think
(10:18):
the podcast had the power to do on a very
basic level, was just someone in your ear being like,
you can calm down, take a deep breath, You're not
the only one. UM. And then and then the other
thing that it does is that, UM, when you hear
that someone had a struggle that um is different from yours,
maybe just as intense, but different, it reminds you that, um,
(10:40):
you had an easier time with something else, something that
they didn't have an easy time with. And UM, I
think it can be really nice to remember that too. UM.
So yeah, I think I think it kind of does
these two things. And I don't think it's necessarily particular
to new parenthood. I think anyone who's going through a
(11:01):
time of crisis, well it seems like you know, the
longest shortest time really focuses in on that need for
that kind of that kind of real talk of understanding
each other's struggles and the strengths that you might have
that you didn't realize that you had. And when it
comes to childbirth and parenting, at least from I have
(11:24):
more of an outside perspective. I'm not a parent, but
it seems like there's so much information these days of
what to expect when you're expecting, and you know, all
of all of the things that you can read about
how things will go, and yet it still seems like
there's this vacuum, this communication vacuum of what it's actually like.
(11:46):
And I was wondering why you think that might be.
For all the information we have, why is it perhaps
still I don't know, hard to talk about or UM. Yeah,
well it's really scary to like talk about vaginal injuries,
I mean, UM, and and that's and and there's a
(12:06):
good reason for that. I mean, I think that women
who talk about it really run the risk of being
called hysterical and in uh ingrateful for UM, especially like
if you have a healthy child, there's a lot of
people who will tell you you should just be happy
that you had a healthy child. And I'm of course
(12:29):
incredibly grateful that, like endlessly grateful that I have a
healthy child. But I don't think that should negate the
fact that, UM, there can be some real physical and
psychological damage done UM two people in childbirth, and UM
that that needs to be dealt with um. I mean,
(12:50):
I think if you out yourself as someone who is
dealing with postpartum depression or anxiety or um a vaginal injury, um,
you are putting yourself in a position of seeming hysterical
and and and and like like you don't know what
(13:11):
really matters, and like I it took me three years
to find help for my injury. Um I was. I
was in pain for that long and it wasn't really
something I felt like I could talk about fully until
I had gotten healed and I was on the other
side of it. But um, yeah, it's just there's a
real stigma to talking about it. Do you think it's
(13:33):
maybe part of a broader cultural problem we have with
not taking women's health concerns, whether they're physical or mental seriously. Yeah,
I do. It's it's a hard thing to understand if
you haven't been through it, and there's not enough people
advocating for the fact that this stuff is real and
(13:55):
it does real damage to people, and it's sort of
easy to walk around to protect and like stuff isn't
happening inside your head um or inside a part of
your body that nobody can see. Um, And so without
those kind of strong voices out there being advocates for
this kind of stuff. It's hard, I think for other
people to imagine that it's real. Well, and do you
(14:17):
think there's also an external pressure put on new moms
in particular to be extremely happy and like you said,
very grateful and everything's fine and and what a joyous time. Definitely.
I mean it's interesting. I feel like parenting media most
(14:37):
often is either you know, that kind of thing like,
yeah you have you have to be happy about everything, um,
or kind of braggy about what a bad mom you are.
And they both kind of rubbed me the wrong way, um,
Because I just think being a parent is a complex
(14:57):
part of life, just like anything, and so why can't
we talk about it in a complicated way. Well, it's
also been interesting to see, um, in celebrity culture, how
there's been this recent obsession with these new celebrity moms
who don't look like they ever were pregnant at any
(15:18):
point at all. And it's it's so it's not only
this cultural pressure to be super happy but also look fantastic,
super thin exactly. And then and the thing that people
need to remember is that number one that's there, like
full time job, is to look awesome, and they have
(15:40):
people watching their babies while they do that. Um. And
the other thing is I think that that's really dangerous
for the media to be congratulating celebrity moms for looking
amazing after having a baby, because it makes everyone else
feel like they need to pressure themselves into doing that too. Yeah.
Definitely seems like the phrase pre baby body is a
(16:04):
bit misleading for for women. Um, well I just did.
I just did an episode with Jean Marie who um
the style and beauty blogger for Jezebel, and Um, she
kind of shamed me into talking about my pre baby body,
like I'm five years in now, and I was talking
(16:27):
about how I was like holding onto clothes that I
was hoping I would fit into, and she was like,
five years later, forget it, get rid of those clothes.
They're not even in style anymore anyway. And it was
really helpful to hear someone say that if they sort
of allow you, you know, give you permission to let go. Yeah, yeah,
(16:47):
to just be like, this is what you look like now,
and it's fine, just get over it. Well, have you
gotten rid of any of the clothes? I did? I
packed like after that literally that weekend, I packed the
clothes up and I donated them. Wow. Yeah, that's awesome, congratulations,
thank you. It felt really liberating. I bet um, Well,
(17:09):
you mentioned parenting media and sort of that that emphasis
on happy, perfect mom versus bad mom, and there are
just all sorts of just general commandments that seems like
in parenting media of how you should raise your child.
And it seems like the longest Shortest time really makes
(17:29):
a concerted effort to emphasize more community versus commandment. And
I was wondering if it's ever tricky to maintain that
judgment free, accepting tone and atmosphere both in your own
podcast conversations but also too in the longest shortest time
(17:51):
listener community interactions. Yeah. So, UM, I think it's just
human nature to judge and to look at someone and
be like, I wouldn't do it that way. But I
also think it's important to remember that, Um, maybe if
you were that exact person, with their exact experiences and
their exact children, you might do it their way. So
(18:12):
so that I tried to remind myself that when I
started when those thoughts creep up on me. But in
the podcast, um, there was one of my first guests
was this woman Kate, who UM she was very adamantly
no cry with with putting her kid to bed, and
I had done cry it out and had worked really
(18:33):
well for me, and UM. I did this interview with
her where we talked about those two different things, and
when I listened back to it a couple of years
after the fact, I was so, I felt so cringe
e because I felt like I sounded so smug and
like I was judging her. And I remembered not feeling
(18:54):
that way at the time, but I feel like I
sounded that way, and I thought, oh, she must have
felt so terrible. UM. And so I called her back
up and brought her back on the podcast and we
talked about it, UM, and she said she hadn't perceived
it that way, but I know that other that listeners
had and UM. So the conversation we wound up having
(19:15):
was um that she had felt like she because we
kind of became friends after that first interview, and she
felt like she could never tell me her birth story
because hers kind of went well and she felt bad
sharing it with me. And I was like, no, you know,
now that you've told me that, now I feel better
about sharing my triumphs with you, like we each had
(19:37):
a triumph and it was different, UM, just like we
each had different struggles and it was like a nice,
really nice bonding moment UM. So it was sort of
a way of using that judge stuff uh as as
to our advantage. UM. And then you know, we have
two official Facebook groups UM. The Mama's Group is a
(20:00):
twelve thousand strong now and the Papa's Group, I think
is about a thousand, and then listeners have generated over
eighty subgroups because they like the non judge tone of
the show and they want to use it to talk
about specific topics UM. And for a really long time
we are rules in the group are uh no soliciting
(20:22):
and no UM personal attacks, and we have no tolerance
for either one. And for a while we just didn't
even have to address any of it. And then maybe
like six months into having the group, UM, it started
growing really quickly because the podcast started getting more popular,
(20:42):
and every time the show gets featured somewhere else, it's
great for the show, it's great for for the longevity
of the show UM, and new people come in who
are not at all used to this non judgy tone
that we have and they're used to their other Facebook
groups where they do attack each other, and so they
come in and they started they start start up with
(21:03):
people and um. The thing that I've found is that
the group members are so protective of this tone that, um,
it's pretty self regulating. They say, you know, this isn't allowed,
and generally, um, the person, the offending person will remove
themselves because then they start feeling attacked. Um Or if
(21:25):
it doesn't resolve that way, then you know, we remove them.
But it doesn't happen too much. Yeah, I mean, it's
and it's great to hear when audiences sort of do
do your work for you in the sense of protecting
the sacred space that that you've created. Um. So, some
of my friends honestly think it's a little odd that
(21:47):
I listened to the longest shortest time because they asked
me what it's about, and I'm like, well, it's about parenting,
and they're like, well, that's weird. You don't have kids.
It's like, well, it's parenting, but it's about it's really
just about people and growing up. And that got me
thinking about this tendency, especially the older I get to
divide the adult world and especially women into parents, non parents,
(22:12):
mothers versus non mothers. And I was just wondering, kind
of what you think about that, of whether I don't know,
whether we sometimes or maybe cloistering ourselves too much based
on our child free by choice or proud mom kind
of identities. Yeah, I mean, I think, first of all,
(22:34):
I want to say that, Um, I think of the
show as like, the parenting stuff is just a launching
point to talk about a whole bunch of other things,
you know, to talk about the big human stuff, the relationships,
the sex, the work, the death. We cover all of
that stuff and the only requirement is that there has
(22:54):
to be a family relationship in there. And I don't
know why we get this a lot Like my my
producer is not a mother, um, and she's in her
early thirties, and she says that she goes to parties
and people will come up and like whisper to her
like I actually like the podcast you work on, And
she's like, why is that a secret? You know? Like, um,
(23:17):
why is it weird that you would like to listen
to stuff about family relationships? We all have families in
one way or another. Anyway that said, I think it's
really it's it's interesting like that we get divided in
this way. And I think, um, you know, female bonds
tend to be really really strong, um between friends, and
(23:38):
when one person has a baby and the other one doesn't,
or their timing is different, um, it can really throw
a wrench in the relationship because people feel like they
don't get each other that well. UM. And I think
like it does put your life in a in a
different place, um, especially in the very beginning when you
(23:59):
know you're not sleeping at all. But I've also I
think it doesn't have to be a complete end to
the relationship. I don't think you have to be divided
by I'm only friends with other moms and my former
friends who who my friends who didn't have kids, like
kept their nonparent friends like. I think there are ways,
(24:22):
there are new ways to find of being adult friends
and and you have to be creative. And I do
think that a lot of the conversations we have on
the podcast, people have said to me who don't have children, like,
you're making me understand my friends lives so much more
and empathize so much more. And now I feel like
I can be friends with them. We had UM. This
(24:44):
one woman, Rachel Garcia, she's a musician UM in California,
and she and her partner, UM don't plan to have children.
And she always sort of was she and her partner
were like weirded out by their friends who started having kids.
And then she started listening to the show and she
felt like she got it so much that they released
their debut album and one of the songs was a
(25:06):
lullaby she wrote for her friend's baby, UM because of
what she learned on the podcast. And so, UM, I
don't know, I don't think it has to be so divisive. Well,
what would you recommend then to to say someone in
my situation without kids who's girlfriends are starting to have
(25:27):
kids in terms of maintaining that relationship and and not,
like you said, allowing it to sort of drive a
wedge between you. I would say, UM, joon't take it
personally that they don't have as much time for you anymore.
It's not because they don't want to, it's because they can't.
And UM, if they're expressing interest in maintaining the friendship,
(25:51):
see if you can cater to them, UM, at least
in that first year or two, UM, offer to come
over and bring dinner or come over and cook with them,
or you know, bring the wine and stay late after
the baby goes to bed. Like my husband and I
have this thing we do where we live in New
Jersey and we have our friends come out to New
(26:15):
Jersey from New York and spend the weekend and do
like a grown up sleepover. And you know, my kid
goes to bed at eight and then we stay up
in party and it's the best. So that that that's
my recommendation. And then and they'll come around if you
keep that up. That that's going to mean a lot
to them if you do that, and once they're able
to like have more of a life that resembles what
(26:37):
they used to, then they'll be coming back to you. Well,
and who could turn down an invitation to a grown
up sleepover? That sounds yeah. Well, you mentioned the Papa's
group on the longest shortst Time Facebook page, um, and
it reminds me of how we have heard from so
so many gentlemen in our stuff I'm gonna or told
(27:00):
you stent asking for well what about stuff Dad never
told you? And so I'm wondering, you know, when it
comes to these conversations about um parenting and family dynamics.
Do you think that men and dads need more attention?
Perhaps that's really funny, I UM. I asked my husband
(27:22):
this question on the train on the way in to
the city this morning, and he just looked at me
and very flatly said no. And I said why not?
And he was like, because if there's stuff I want
to know about parenting, I just go to look at
general parenting stuff. I don't need stuff for dad's. Um.
I don't know if that's how everyone feels, but I
(27:43):
do think, UM, that there's definitely more of an urgency
that I see from women feeling like the stuff that
they're dealing with really needs attention. The dad's, I think
need more need bonding with each other. And when you phreeze,
it as like stuff dad never told you. I mean,
(28:05):
you know, God, this stuff that dads don't tell their kids,
there's so much right But UM, so maybe there's maybe
there's more stuff that kids need from their dad's. I
don't know. I don't know, um, how much of a
demand there is for dads to be catered to in
(28:25):
parenting media though. Well, speaking of dads, and we just
did a podcast on this so I have to ask you, um,
do you have any thoughts on dad bods. I don't know.
I think I just think that they're that again, it's
like there's not as much pressure on dad's to look
a certain way, you know. Well, and especially after listening
(28:50):
to this past week, I was I was binge listening
to a number of old podcast episodes and after listening
to one on sex after childbirth and thinking about the
idea of of mom body and how just the entire
thing is so much different and far more complex than
(29:11):
this presentation of what a dad bought is. Um, it
was it was thought provoking, I'll say that. Yeah. I
mean it's like it's like letting yourself go versus like
stuff that was done to you, you know what I mean,
a complete transformation in a way. Yeah, And I don't
I don't want to like be little dads and what
(29:34):
they go through. They go through a lot um. But
I'm just saying I just feel a lot more urgency
from moms. Well, since this is stuff mom never told you,
I wanted to ask whether there is a stuff Mom
never told you? Um, just something just something generally that
(29:54):
you especially want to ensure that you do tell your daughter, Sasha. Yeah. UM,
so my mom was was pretty um open with me
about the stuff that maybe other moms aren't open about,
like uh, body stuff and sex stuff and whatever tending
(30:17):
to your mental health needs. UM. But she grew up
in a time where gender roles were a lot more
um traditional, and so like she and my dad got
married right out of college and um, so she never
lived on her own and never had to really become
(30:38):
economically educated. And UM, I did live on my own,
and I needed to figure that stuff out on my own.
And so I would want to pass that information onto
my daughter. UM. And I also would want her to
know that if she winds up in a relationship with
(30:58):
a man, that men do right thank you notes. So
my mom, in her traditional ways, UM, places a lot
of importance on thank you notes and um like when
I got married and when I had a baby, UM,
she was kind of stunned by the fact that my
husband split the thank you note writing with me. UM.
(31:20):
And so I would want my daughter to know that, yes,
you can expect your partner to write thank you notes
to egalitarian thank you notes. I love it. I have
a wedding coming up next year, so I will remember that, Hillary, Well, say,
now when it when it comes to the longest shortest
(31:43):
time catalog and all of the different things, the different
people that you've talked about, and the experiences that people
have shared, is there one that stands out in your
mind that has really made a resounding impression on you?
Mm hmm. Recently, UM, I talked to this woman, Melinda.
(32:07):
She is African American and UM had struggled with anxiety
her entire life and she uh and then when she
became pregnant, her anxiety kind of like became debilitating. But
she felt like she couldn't talk about it because in
her community. UM, there's a real stigma to talking about
(32:30):
mental health issues. UM. And I just thought she was
so brave to come out and talk about it. UM.
And it really really resonated with people of all different cultures.
And it was really amazing to see how her telling
her story could could just make other people feel what
(32:52):
I what I wanted to feel when I first started
the podcast, which was not alone. UM. So yeah, I
think I think that one this has been sticking with me. Well,
it's interesting you mentioned that one because I also just
listen to that and it had a huge impact on
(33:13):
me as well because her story, I mean, it made
me think about all of my fears about the possibility
of if I become pregnant, if I become a mother,
and how like my anxiety will interact with that. And
I was sobbing on and off like listening to it,
and was just so grateful too to hear her story
(33:36):
and for it to be told so honestly as well.
So so thank you for sharing that too. Thanks, thanks
so uh well for listeners who want to know where
they can go to learn more about you in the
longest shortest time and also about your offline events because
(33:57):
it is not just a podcast, you do meet ups
in person. UM. Where can they go to find all
that information? Yeah, so they should go to the Longest
Shortest Time dot com UM. And we take stories from listeners.
We take UM stories from parents about their relationships with
their kids, and we also take stories from kids and
grown kids about their parents UM. And we also we
(34:20):
have an app that that you can find on our
website UM where you can record answers to our questions
really easily and your voice can wind up on our show.
And we also do these events that we call speed
dating for Mom Friends, which is so that moms can
meet each other. It's a it's a non judge environment
and um, it's really fun. People come. And we made
(34:43):
a signature cocktail for the last one called Sex on
the living Room Floor, and um, we could sort of
take the guesswork out of making mom friends. Fantastic. Um,
I'm curious though, what was in what goes into Sex
on the living Room Floor. It's vodka and club soda
with fresh orange juice and grapefruit juice. And to top
(35:06):
it all off, there was there was a lemon wheel.
But also, um, a sexy lady like a like a
naked sexy lady. Stir well, that's that's very refreshing. Well,
(35:30):
thanks so much to Hillary Frank for coming on and
speaking with Kristen and enlightening all of us about parenthood
the nitty gritty, like Kristen said, and basically filling us
in on how she got to where she is. And
if you want to learn more about Hillary Frank and
the books she's written, the radio she's produced, the podcast
and also public speaking that she does, head on over
(35:54):
to her website, Hillary Frank dot com and for more
info and more import and lead to listen to the
Longest Shortest Time. You can head to Longest Shortest Time
dot com and we'll have links to all of this
stuff and also some of my favorite Longest Shortest Time
(36:14):
episodes on this podcast post over at Stuff Mom Never
Told You dot com. So again, huge thanks to Hillary
for taking the time to chat with us today and
kick off our podcast Summer Camp Summer Serious Spectacular Swizzler.
I don't think what is that the actual name of it? Well, no,
(36:35):
that's the name of the themed restaurant that you and
I are going to open. Yes, yeah, so podcasts buffet
all you can eat so great, please guard and all
deep fried earbuds love it. Well. Now, we're curious to
hear from listeners about your parenting stories. Do you feel
like a lot of times parenting advice glosses over what
(37:00):
it's really like to make that transition into parenthood um,
and also if you have any tips on bridging that
parent non parent divide as well, we'd love to hear
from you. We always love your stories. Mom Stuff at
how stuff Works dot com is our email address. You
can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or messages
(37:21):
on Facebook, and we've got a couple of messages to
share with you right now. Well, I have a letter
here from Michelle about our sci Fi Summer Reading episode.
She says, I love your discussion about women in sci
(37:42):
fi books. I'm a writer myself, and I gained my
love for reading sci fi and fantasy from my mother.
I was so excited to hear some of my favorites mentioned,
and I've learned some new names. I wanted to share
another author with you and your listeners. Mercedes Lackey is
an amazing fantasy writer, and her Harold Mage series is
where I first encountered a same sex relationship. I think
(38:02):
the book was Magics Pawn and I was in high school.
It made me pause when I came across it, but
I recalled that the relationship was handled in a very
matter of fact way. The more I read it, the
more normal quote unquote it seemed to me her writing
opened my mind to something I had never encountered before
and helped to set me up for acceptance. Sci Fi
and fantasy are definitely a great arena to explore the
(38:24):
unfamiliar in a way that feels safe. I love you both,
keep up the great conversations. So thanks Michelle, So I've
got a letter here from Amanda on our Judy Bloom
summer reading episode. Because one summer reading episode was just
not enough this summer. So Amanda wrote, thank you so
much for the Judy Bloom episode for me. The timing
(38:46):
couldn't have been better. Just last week, I decided I
wanted to read some of j blues older books. After
learning that there weren't any copies of India Unlikely event
currently available at my local library, I decided to read
Forever and Aly loved it. Two days later, I went
back to the library and checked out Wifey. I'm twenty
six years old and this was my first time reading
(39:07):
either book. I'm not sure why, but I never really
got into Judy Blue when I was a kid. I
went to a Catholic grade school and my parents were
pretty conservative, so I think I was just never exposed
to some of her more mature books. I was struck
by how progressive and relevant Forever seemed, despite being written
forty years ago. I just loved the message that people
fall in love, have sex, breakup, and move on and
(39:29):
that's okay. It's such an ordinary story, but one that
would have been so helpful for me to read as
a teenager. I hope I can share it with my
future children some day. I enjoyed Wifey even more. Kristen,
I too love a good oppressed housewives story, so this
was right up my alley. I would love to hear
what you think of it when you read it. I
(39:50):
think I read this book at the exact right time
of my life. I'm not sure if I would have
appreciated it as a teenager or even as a younger adult.
As a young married lady, I found it totally fascinating.
I can't wait to get my hands on more. J Blue,
and thank you Amanda for your letter and everybody else
who's written into us. Mom Stuff at how stuff works
dot com is our email address and for links to
(40:12):
all of our social media as well as all of
our blogs, videos, and podcast with this one with links
to the longest shortest time so you can give it
a listen and fall in love with it like I have.
Head on over to stuff mom Never Told You dot
com for more on this and thousands of other topics.
(40:32):
Doesn't how stuff Works dot com
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