October 4, 2017 • 37 mins
Are you a fan of someone...even though you KNOW their record on feminist issues isn't exactly stellar? Today we're introducing a series profiling women we love, imperfections and all. First up? The queen of courtroom TV: Judge Judy.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
This is Emily, and this is budget and you're listening
to stuff Mom never told you. And today I'm so
excited to talk through a topic that comes up quite
a bit in my life, and that is the topic
(00:26):
of problematic faves. What is a problematic fave? Bridget? Well,
I'm glad you asked. A problematic fave according to Urban Dictionary,
which is sort of a I mean, it's like, how
would you describe it? It's like v go to source
for the youngsters. Yeah, and for those like me who
want to keep up with the youngsters. And I also
highly recommend searching your own name in Yeah, sometimes it
(00:49):
gets a real specific. It'll be like, a bridget is
a person who never pays you back when she borrows money.
Do you have a bad experience with a bridget? Yeah,
you can go rant about and Emily, but check out
the difference between Emily with an I E and Emily
with a why and Urban Dictionary sometime I found it
pretty fascinating. Fascinating anyway, what is it actual thing about? So,
(01:09):
a problematic fave, according to Urban Dictionary is a favorite person,
usually a character who has problematic views and opinions. And
so I got thinking about this. Um. I am someone
who enjoys a wide spectrum of popular culture, including popular
culture made by people who maybe do not share my
personal values or political ideologies. And I got to thinking,
(01:32):
what is this concept? Why do we have them? Why
do you feel squeamish about them? Who are some common
problematic saves? So I put out a call to my
networks asking folks for their problematic saves. UM. Some of
the common ones folks said were Kim Kardashians or any
of the Kardashians really, um, Amy Schumer, Lena Dunham. Surprisingly,
a lot of people had an anxiety about being huge
(01:53):
fans of Lena Dunham's writing and her her working girls,
but feeling conflicted about it. UM Tina Fey, another big one,
Woody Allen, which I totally totally understand. Um. And then
some folks had other ones that are sort of more
nebulous or they're not people, UM, the Democratic Party or
Amazon Prime or Uber, these things that you use a
(02:15):
lot and that are kind of staples in our in
our culture, but maybe aren't always so great, right. I
think it's that contention between I intrinsically like what they're
doing or I like the service I'm getting where I
like the art that they're producing, but when I learn
more about the person behind that art or behind that
service or product, or when I learn more about how
(02:36):
that company operates, which is something I think we cover
a lot here around really values driven consumerism. Uh, I
feel conflicted. And the more you learn about a celebrity
you admire, and maybe she or he says something a
little off hand or off color, or does something terrible
in a very public way, there's this new, relatively new
(02:58):
way in which we, as can sumers, I think, are
holding celebrities and companies to a high moral standard, not
just based off of their artistic expression or based off
of the product or service, but how they do what
they do well. There's actually data that shows that a
lot of this is being driven by younger folks. Millennials
are actually much more likely to spend money with brands
(03:20):
if those brands are showing signs of being socially invested
or or socially conscious. In twenty fifteen, Nielsen published its
annual Global Corporate Sustainability Report and indicated that globally, sixties
of consumers are willing to spend more on a product
if it comes from a sustainable brand. Millennials are even
more likely to spend if these brands were sustainable, with
surveyed indicating a similar preference. So basically, younger folks really
(03:44):
expect brands that they spend money on, and I guess
by that logic celebrities and media and culture that they
consume to have some sort of social responsibility or or
social or civic investment. Yeah, which feels to me relatively new,
but I guess this is something that's come in and
out of over the years. Right. We think back in
(04:05):
the eighties and nineties, celebrities like Jane Fonda, Paul Newman,
they've been walking the walk and getting politically involved or
advocating for causes in addition to promoting their products or
movies or celebrity. So I know you have done a
lot of speaking. I think it's south By Southwest about
celebrity activist culture. Yeah. Well, I my um my theory
(04:29):
is that for celebrities in this day and age, everything
is sort of political right now, and for a celebrity
to not genuinely engage with politics or activism or social
causes or something other than just their own celebrity, those
are the celebrities that don't really have staying power. And
so when you think of people who were really huge
that didn't really meaningfully do that, I think of people
(04:49):
like Adeasalia. Those are the people that I see who
sort of were beg for a while then flamed out.
Because in order to really have a lasting presence, you
need people need to feel like you're meaning invested in
the world, not just being your product. That's interesting my theory.
I think that's a great theory because it feels authentic
to see a fully rounded array of interest from some celebrities,
(05:10):
right like you see their full person. And when I
think about when the term problematic faith really got into
the cultural zekaist, I'm reminded of this Tumbler blog that
was really really really well known back in the early
days of Tumbler called your Faith It's Problematic, And basically
this blog was dedicated to highlighting the ways in which
people that were kind of catapulted into faith status, people
(05:33):
that people that we all probably know and love, your
Amy Schumer's of the World, your Tina Face of the World,
cataloging the things they did that were quote problematic. So
justin Biebers at the top of um and so they
really saw this, whether or not this is true or not,
they really presented this as we are just, you know,
(05:54):
historical database of celebrities. You know, we're not saying they're
bad people, We're not saying don't like them, or just
giving you the facts. Right. They would always claim, according
to the Vice article that quote, their site is merely
an archive, saying we just document problematic things that celebrities
have done. We are record keepers and nothing more. Yeah,
(06:14):
this idea falls flat on its face after just a
small peruse of the archive, where opinion rules it's not
record keeping to call someone a quote piece of something
I can't say on the radio, or trash, and that
the idea of that fairly objective things like whether it's
acceptable for a Bijan woman to wear a kimono can
even be subject to quote record is tenuous at best.
(06:37):
So I just love how this Vice article kind of
brings a little bit of that problematic Fave methodology to
their blog and saying even though we like this and
this sort of call out call in culture around celebrities
can be intriguing and interesting and helpful, don't pretend like
you're just record keepers, because you are certainly not being
(07:00):
fully objective journalism here totally. So I kind of like
how he highlights the problematic nature of of your your
favorite problematic dot com dot com um. But I think
what that article really also nails for me is the
way in which these terms that we are If you're
someone who spends a lot of time in progressive or
social social justice spaces that we think of, it's pretty common.
(07:22):
Terms like microaggressions or fat shaming or body shaming. These
were things that you know, back in the day, people
weren't talking about, and I think he is right that
this blog really made them more mainstream. He writes, before
I came across this website, the concepts of cultural appropriation, microaggressions,
fat shaming as a body politic and not just an insult,
trans misogyny, the words cyst and a slew of others
(07:44):
were essentially new to me, and I imagined to a
lot of people. These terms were presented via the criticism
of celebrities. Something is something we all consciously are not
partaken regularly, and so really taking these terms out of
like the gender studies textbook and applying them to you know,
Kina Fey was a kind of new thing, and I
don't think people were really doing it in that way
(08:05):
before a certain time in our in our culture. Yeah,
and I think there's a level of discomfort around critiquing
something that everybody likes. Right when you are listening to
your favorite recording artists and just jamming along to I
don't know, hip hop lyrics that might be drenched in misogyny,
(08:26):
as we've discussed before, and fully enjoying every moment of
low Wayne blaring into your earbuds. And then you've got
a blog like this tumbler calling out celebrities for their
misogyny or for being blind to his gender privilege. Right,
there's this defensiveness that I think is inherent to the
(08:49):
human experience. You want to cheerlead someone, but you want
to also have the space and be able to psychologically
hold them accountable and know that it's nuanced. And I
think a lot of folks still find it really troubling,
even on our podcast, because we do talk about individual women, um,
whether it's Avanka Trump and her feminism, or if it's
(09:11):
other business owners or celebrity women or women in the
labor movement and leaders, and we definitely bring our opinions
to the table and talking about what we love about
these women and what we find problematic. I think there's
this inherent defensiveness that comes up for folks of saying,
you can't say anything bad about someone I really admire,
someone that I really like. Yeah, and I think I
(09:34):
completely agreed, And I've definitely been on the receiving end
of how dare you have an opinion about such and
such celebrity that I really enjoy? Not saying any names, Um,
but I get it. I get it, and I definitely
have felt that as a as a feminist, as a
progressive person, that it's canna be hard to just enjoy
something that's Like one of my favorite headlines from The
Onion woman takes short half hour break from being a
(09:57):
feminist to enjoy TV show so that I get it.
Just feels like, can you just enjoy a song, or
enjoy a show, or enjoy a celebrity, or enjoy a
media thing or culture thing without having to unpack the
ways in which it's problematic and feminist and socially sensitive
lens that you have on all the time. I often
(10:19):
find myself calling things out or just pointing out some
problematic things in culture or in whatever it is that
we're consuming and bradle Goo, is this a feminist thing?
And I'm like, yes, dear, yes it is. Yeah, here
we go again. He's like, oh, I was, I was
hoping to just enjoy this movie. I just want you
(10:39):
to notice who who the protagonists are over and over again,
and the racial disparity in our TV proper does not
pass the best shelt'. He's like, is that a feminist thing?
I love it, but the most satisfying thing I have
then witnessed Brad the Boo say similar things in front
of all of his dude friends while they're trying to
(11:02):
enjoy something, and I'm just like, I'm just sitting back
so proud. Yeah, like feminist call out to the gift
that keep on giving. Like you give it to Brad,
he gives it to his friends like I've infected you,
Like you can't take the lens off now either. Congrats.
I love it. I mean I think really what this
comes down to is that, really, everybody, if you want
to live our values, but sometimes it can be hard
(11:23):
when we enjoy something that doesn't also reflect those values.
And I think it's interesting how you really only see
that kind of recently. Over at Vox, Jamie Wyman argues
that sometime in the past decade, socially conscious criticism became
the norm. And so when you think about shows like
How I Met Your Mother, shows like Friends, they were
often kind of criticized for not being racially diverse or
(11:45):
not being inclusive, but the shows didn't necessarily feel like
they needed to respond to that in an oversized way.
And I don't think there was mainstream criticism. No, So
I know on Friends they added I think it was
a Shia Tyler kind of like late late in the show,
um as a response to that. I know on Signfeld
they kind of poke fun at it, but they didn't
really have any kind of It wasn't a mainstream argument,
and we didn't really feel the need to, um, you know,
(12:08):
divers off either cast in a city like New York
because a bunch of white people living in a huge
apartment in New York to while they work at coffee shops.
Totally realistic. Yeah, everything else about it was totally true,
as true as the diversity on that show, totally, but
they weren't held to that higher standard. Unlike years later,
Lena Dunham's Girls. Yeah, so inveum the controversy around Girls
(12:31):
and the lack of racial racial inclusion on the show,
she had to comment on that. She had to add
black characters. She had to say like, oh, this is
not a political choice to not add you know, diverse characters.
We want to do that. She was had to. She
was made to comment on it quite a bit in
a way that other shows, even not even that long ago,
shows like How I Met Your Mother, um, just were
(12:51):
not right. And I actually found most of Lena's responses
to be quite good, right, Like, I found that she
was humble, she was appreciative of the call in, and
she really said I learned a lot through the process
of getting culturally critiqued. And this is a very young
woman with a very successful HBO series thrown into the
(13:16):
deep end, right, It's like, as a creator, putting your
work out there is a vulnerable experience. She got called
out rightfully so for being whitewashed completely in terms of
every main character on that show. But then her response
to it, whether you know, adding in Donald Glover was
sufficient or not as a love interest, I don't think
(13:38):
is the point here, because I don't think that her
adaptations were ever going to be sufficient because the main
characters had already been set. But the way that she
responded to those critiques I thought was pretty good. I
thought was effective. Would you say that she's one of
your problematic faces? Definitely? I was gonna say that that
was a little like, um, defensive, not defensive, but again, yeah,
(13:59):
like when we like someone it is I'm the same
way with my problematically. If Miley Cyrus could have responded
half as effectively as Lena Dunham had responded to her critiques,
you know she would be way less problematic. H. I agree,
you know what I saying, Like Lena Dunham said, you're right,
I need to make adjustments. I totally didn't check my
privilege here, but you've helped me acknowledge my blindness to race,
(14:24):
and you know she's going to do the best. She
can't tell her story from her life's experiences, which I
have a feeling pretty white, h and pretty privileged, and
yet she's gonna stretch, she's gonna make changes, she's going
to include folks of color in her operation, not just
on the screen, but behind the scenes too, right, Um, yeah,
(14:46):
I mean that's why I get it. I mean it's
when you really admire someone, particularly someone who is a
creative or makes a product that you really appreciate, it
can be hard to I see myself giving my problematic
Dave the benefit of the doubt time and time and
time and time and time again. I'm going to reveal
who my problematic save is after the short break and
(15:15):
we're back, and I was just about to reveal my
number one problematic save. I should say I have a
lot of problematic faves. This one is my most not
for the most problematic, but my favious face. Um and
it is. That was a drum roll. I f headphone
(15:36):
Judge Judith Shinelon a k A. Judge Judy. Yes, y'all,
I'm obsessed with Judge Judy. I have a framed picture
of her in my home. I've tried to get into
the audience of Judge Duty many many, many times, but
you have to be an actual actor to be in
the audience. If you ever actually watched such duty, the
(15:57):
people who are watching the show like watching it during
the taping. They have the most expressive faces, are always
making the most intense shock face or gas face. It's
because they're all after good. They're like, this is my moment.
Mom watched me two pm on Thursday. Um, I watched it.
(16:17):
I DVR is the only thing I DVR. It's my
favorite thing. So I have to admit I hadn't even
thought of Judge Judy for I don't know a decade
until you admitted this to me the other week when
we were talking about this episode. So what is it
that you love about Judge Judy. First of all, her
show is entertaining as hell. I'm not kidding. If you
(16:38):
have a hard day at work, go watch Judge Judy.
It's like the perfect half hour of television. You get
four like dramatic, juicy, other other people's problems, other people's stories.
You get to like dive in. She basically is the
Greek chorus of the show because like what you're thinking
she says, and you're like, that's true. Um. She has
this amazing relationship with her bailiff bird where is lots
(17:00):
of eye rolls and like shared glances. And I also
just love that she I love her story. I love
that she got ahead while having this attitude being no nonsense.
You know. I I am always struck by women who
become very famous or very popular or beloved who aren't
sweet and demure and night And she's done that and
(17:22):
that's not easy to do. I mean a see Hillary
Clinton right, seeing any other assertive woman, joy beharor so
so many When I see a woman who is takes
no bs and is blunt and she's beloved, I'm I'm
I'm automatically on board. Yeah, I mean, people see her
as fair and just. So how does she get to
(17:44):
this TV fame? Like how did how does she get
to this level of celebrity? So fun fact about Judge
Judy She is an actual real judge. Not every judge
on TV is a real judge, but she is a
real judge and so she actually didn't start doing TV
until pretty late in life. She got her start in
nine two, when she was appointed by Mayor Ed Koch
as a criminal court judge. Four years later, she was
(18:06):
promoted to supervising judge in the Family Courts Manhattan Division.
Here she owned a reputation as being tough, even though
she didn't like thinking of herself as tough. But she
us would have known for her wit, for her bluntness,
and I mean New York in the eighties was not
the safest or most. You know, it's not what it
is now. It was kind of a depressing place and
working at a family is not easy. I mean, there's
(18:29):
and it totally reminds me of the kinds of issues
that she deals with. I think it was on Facebook
recently that a little clip from her show went viral
about a dog custody, my favorite. Also, they talked about
it on broad City about that episode of this little
dog comes into the quare room and she says, just
put the dog down, and these two people are arguing
(18:50):
over who owns the dog, and of course the dog
runs up. If you haven't seen the episode, the dog
runs up to this person, one of the people I
think the plainted, and jumps all over him, kisses him,
and he picks him up, and and she's like, case hammer,
you know what is that? What is that? Hammer? Gavel?
That's it? Gavel away and case close. I just I mean,
(19:14):
she is decisive and she's unapologetic, and that definitely was
noticed as a young attorney in New York City. That
appointment to becoming a judge is pretty incredible. Um, and
her reputation got the attention of the l A Times. Right. Yeah,
so in this really great l A Times article. She's
(19:36):
sort of framed as being a no nonsense judge that
is taking is making sure that our institutions are representing
the quote common good, and so I loved this idea
of her sort of using family court to make sure
that these institutions are actually representing people in a way
that is fair, which I think is great. It's amazing
(19:56):
to see how years of hard work, years of hard
work in the law end up getting her noticed in
the l A Times, which then spins into a piece
on sixty Minutes. So that's really her TV debut, and
sixty Minutes that spot I'm sure had something to do
(20:17):
with her getting on TV as an in the next
phase of her career. So it's insane to think you're
going through law school, right, You're busting your butt as
a male dominated field in which you are not always
deemed worthy or felt welcome in that environment. You are
this a cerbic, hard hitting, takes no prisoners kind of judge.
(20:39):
You get promoted, you get noticed, you get written about,
you get on sixty Minutes, and back in that time
in her life, like as a young attorney, she never
would have imagined herself being the queen of daytime TV
right and being being being a actual like media mogul,
just based on her personality, her wit and her hard work.
I mean, that's like a fairy tale. Someone sees you
crazy in your job so well and so interestingly and
(21:02):
so competently that they're like the universe plucks you out
of obscurity to be hugely, hugely famous and successful. I
love it. Often does that happen. I feel like that's
the beauty of her story. I get it. I love it.
I read her book, it's so good. Like her books titles,
please tell us the title, don't pee on my leg
and tell me it's raining. What Another thing I love
(21:24):
about her is that her bailiff on the show Bird,
he isn't just an actor, He's an actual bailiff and
he was her bailiff back in the days when she
was in family court um. And basically they always had
this chemistry with each other. They've always if you watched
the show, they're known for their shared glances, and she'll
often throw to Bird and he'll be like, oh, I
don't even know Judge, Like they had this great banter
(21:45):
and I just love I remember reading a story where
when she was being picked to go on TV. She
called Bird to tell him, and Bird was like, well,
you know, I still look good in my unicorn and
she was like, yeah, you should be my bailiff. And
now he's a millionaire. She made him a millionaire, a
millionaire with I love. It was amazing and I just
love that this chemistry they have has really kind of
made her the undisputed champ of syndication on TV. Yeah,
(22:07):
I mean according to varieties list of highest paid TV
stars of two thousand and sixteen, Judge Judy is the
highest paid TV star, earning an estimated forty seven million
dollars a year for her show, which by the way,
is in its twenty feet season. That is so insane.
That number forty seven million seems completely insane to me
(22:30):
until you look at how much money her show brings
in Okay. Variety says that the show brings in between
a hundred and sixty and a hundred and seventy million
dollars a year in revenue, and it's the most watched
national program in daytime TV, with an average of ten
point three million viewers a week. I I thought for
sure it would have been Ellen. By the way, Oh no,
(22:51):
she's richer than Ellen's, isn't it nuts? Like that's that
blows my mind. And again she's like a sleeper logal
because you don't really hear about her in a in
a business way the way that you hear about folks
like Oprah or Ellen or you know. Yeah, And she's
an executive producer of another show, So Judge Judy is
the number one court daytime court show on TV and
(23:12):
the number two is Hot Bench that she also produces. Right,
So she's a straight up mogul in case y'all didn't know.
And as a straight up mogul, she also negotiates like
a boss. So as it happens when she was negotiating
with CBS, she this is like straight out of Mafia playbook, okay,
(23:33):
or the Gangster Playbook, because she would have a regular
steakhouse dinner with the network president, during which time she
would casually hand him an envelope containing the number that
will be her new salary that would be will be,
and it also will list any other demands or request
(23:54):
that she has. Quote. I hand him the envelope and
I say, don't read it now, let's have a nice dinner.
She would then say call me tomorrow if you want it, fine,
otherwise I'll produce it myself. And that is Judge Judy's
form of negotiation. How can you not love? That means
(24:15):
something out of my fantasies, and she can. She can
do it like she's so powerful and so successful and
so good. She's got it, like she's one of a kind.
I don't know why we missed that tactic in the negotiation,
take your to take your boss to a steak let
me know, don't open it now, Let's enjoy a nice
meal first. I think that is like the real death
(24:38):
knell of that. So she's a boss, there's no doubt
about it. Judge Judy is getting paid, she's taken no prisoners.
She has risen up from relative obscurity to being the
highest paid daytime TV mogul and talent. So what's not
(24:58):
to love, bridget Well, I'll tell you what's not to
love after this quick break and we're back. And I
was just talking about my number one faith, Judge Judy,
who's rapidly becoming my number one faith. The best should
(25:18):
be everyone's faith. But here's why she's a problematic faith
and not just a faith faive judge Judy commits my
number one feminist. Sin uh, well, maybe not number one,
but one of many. When you ask someone are you
a feminist? And they waffle, I hate that so much.
She didn't even really waffle. She said no, she does
(25:40):
not embody the term at all. She does not. Did
she not get the memo from Adici in this sample
track in the middle of Fiance's album, come on, we
should all be feminists? Yeah, I think that everybody should
be a feminist, but I think especially I'm particularly bothered
when someone says I'm not a feminist. I just think
that men and women should have the same I just
(26:00):
think that men and women should have to be paid
the same. I just think that men and women should
be equal society. And I'm saying that's saying I mean,
it frustrates me to no when right, Well, it's just
a good reminder that people hear the word feminist and
still don't immediately think gender equality, which is what feminism
is all about. It's not about women above men. It's
(26:22):
really about the equal social, political, economic, whatever justice between
women and men. And it's just a bummer that even
you know, as smart and savvy and witty as the
sixties seven year old TV judge, who by the way,
is a mother of five and grandmother of eleven, is
not setting the role model of not only being a mogul,
(26:44):
not only being an unapologetically assertive women, but also saying
that makes me a feminist. It's just it's just a bummer.
It is a bummer. I'm really taken by this article
in jezz Bell a few years ago about Judge Judy
and her feminism or lack thereof, where she basically kind
of denies sexism and doesn't see the sexism inherent in
her own come up story. She says, I never felt
(27:06):
I didn't have an equal opportunity as a woman, despite
the fact that she earlier mentioned that she was one
of only six women enrolled in her law school, where
she also admits professors didn't have much regard for female students,
and she goes on to say, some of the professors
treated you as if you were a skunk at a
lawn party, and as if you were there as a hobby.
Sometimes that takes away your spirit, and sometimes it makes
you tougher. It made me mad and tough. There were
(27:29):
a lot of schmucky guys in my class who were
all going to be mediocre lawyers at best. And to me,
I mean, how can you not read that anecdote and say,
look at that. That is that is gender inequality, that
is sexism. But she, for some reason, to her, it's like, oh,
it made me tough, and that's why I don't need
feminists and not a feminist because I saw this as
(27:50):
the setback. And I isn't this like classic second generation
shoulder pad wearing eight nineteen eighties there can only be
one woman at the top type feminism, because all I
can think of is this is like a feminist version
of the Horatio alger myth, which is classic to the
American come up story, which is this idea pull yourself
(28:13):
up by your bootstraps, just like I did. Why can't you?
She killed it. Clearly her career worked out, but that
doesn't mean gender discrimination doesn't prevent a hundred million other
equally talented judge judy's out there who aren't given that
same shot. So she's saying, yeah, it was tough. Sexism
chipped up my ego on occasion and made things a
(28:35):
little tougher for me. But I never felt like I
didn't have equal opportunity. It's this very libertarian way of saying,
I made my own opportunities, so why can't you? And
you've always said on this podcast, feminism is not about
one woman's rise, right, Yeah, Feminism is not one is
not cheering one woman doing awesome, although that's great. Feminism
(28:58):
is about lifting up there's Feminism is about acknowledging that
even if another female identified person has different problems, different struggles,
different chains, different oppression, our oppression is a linked and
I can't get free unless she is also free, exactly,
And I think that's where Judge Judy sees that very differently.
She sees the world very differently. I would venture to
guess she's a Republican. I mean, she really clearly believes
(29:20):
in in individualism and that pull yourself up by your
own bootstraps type and mentality. In that same article, she says, quote,
I believe in the individual spirit. It was hard for
me to put my heart into organizations that were trying
to tell me something that I never felt. In that quote,
she's referencing feminist uprising organizations, and I understand where she's
(29:42):
coming from. She's saying, I never really felt discriminated against.
So all that discrimination that you're talking about other women,
I don't know, maybe women across the spectrum of intersectional feminism,
maybe women who don't have the same skin tone as
I do, or don't have the same uh sexual or
intation than I do, or ability that I do, etcetera, etcetera,
(30:03):
and onward that discrimination and describing I never felt that,
so therefore it's not valid and there's no need to
work against it in any kind of organized way. Um.
I have to stick up for Judge Juty in the
typical problematic fame defensiveness. She claims to have voted for
Barack Obama. She is pro choice and pro gay marriage.
(30:24):
She does definitely have some She's sort of like Angie Harmon.
I don't know if you watch Law and Order, but
she's I could talk all day about how much I
love Angie Harmon, but is a huge Republican. Um. Yeah,
but who do you think she voted for? Kills me
if I use Sweet Jesus, she cannot. If I find
out that Judge Dudy voted for Trump, my life will
be over. Sorry and Jen, Sorry, Oh my gosh, Judge Duty,
(30:50):
if you're listening, please get get in touch with me.
We can work it out. If you voted for Trump,
we can get you out of this. Thank you. I
don't know, can we. I think we need her to
save us. She's a strong woman. Clinic. I would she
identified with Clintic. She has to. They're so similar in
(31:10):
some ways. I don't know it is It would make
her much more problematic, wouldn't it if she voted. But
here's the thing I get. I really do have a
ton of respect for a lot of Republicans, and I
get the free market, capitalist approach. I'm a business owner.
I believe in capitalism as a vehicle for positive change
to not just oppression, which we've had some really interesting
(31:32):
conversations with our fans on social media about recently. Yeah,
I mean, I I feel bit differently. I would not
call myself a capitalist, but so I sort of see though.
I mean, I see, I have respect for what she's accomplished,
and I understand this blindness to other people's oppression. I
just don't think I think she can do better. I
(31:56):
think she's got incredible intellect and wit and empathy clearly
is involved in being a good judge. So I'd be
surprised for her to not have her awoken NG. You know,
from an intersectional feminist perspective, maybe that's Sara. Maybe we
can have lunch with her. Yeah, maybe we can. I would.
Maybe we can send our intersectional feminism law. If anyone
(32:18):
has a connection to Judge Juty, please get in touch
with me. I would. I would die happy. And I'm
sure we could all learn from each other at that. Definitely, definitely.
But I think you know, when I bring it back
to this, this concept of being a problematic faith, I
think the tumbler your favorite problematic if you go to
there frequently ask questions, I think they really kind of
capture how I feel. So you were to write in
and say, okay, my favorite problematic. Now what they write,
(32:41):
I'm sorry it upsets you, but it's important to remember
that our favorites are human and they will make mistakes
and do or say bad things. This does not necessarily
mean they are bad people, nor does it mean that
you cannot like them all. It means that you should
acknowledge their flaws and that they should be held accountable
for them. And I think that is hard, but I
think that is so so right. And so you know,
(33:02):
if you have a problematic faith, whether it's Judge Duty
or Kim Kardashian or Justin Bieber or Woody Allen. Maybe
not him, but um I mean his art. Yeah, yeah,
I get it, you know, acknowledging. It's okay that I
still like this person. It's okay that I can't separate
Bill Cusby. Oh that's is it? Okay? I have to
(33:27):
say I've mentioned on the show how much I love
the show A Different World, which he's not in to produced.
So I will always like that show, but he's quickly
becoming someone to me that like. It's also R Kelly.
If you still like Kelly, I'm giving you major side eyes.
It's the other rapper that always we always waffle on.
(33:49):
It's not Chris Brent, it's Drake. Okay, yeah, I mean
comparatively all right, But what you were saying is that
it's okay, it's okay. And I think what they're saying is,
you know, to be honest about it, and it's okay
to recognize people's flaws. I also think it's really interesting
that one of the questions they have on their fa
queues are okay, well, your your blog is problematic. Are
(34:12):
you going to post on that, and they say, we
do not think we are exempt from doing problematic things.
We we want to be called out when we do.
We do not think this blog is perfect. We have
made mistakes in the past. We are not witty or
original by sending this sort of message. And I think,
as as sort of meta as that is, that's what
it all comes down to, Like our faiths are problematic.
We are problematic. I am problematic. You are problematic. Everything
(34:34):
is problematic, and that's okay. We're here and that just
makes us analytical and interesting and open to learning and growth.
I really think it's about having a growth mindset on
this stuff, and that I think is hopefully we've made
it clear that we're really walking the walk on this
because this podcast is an exercise in hopefully where somebody's faiths,
(34:56):
you know what I mean. If I'm your faith, I'm
hella problematic exactly. I mean, we're all imperfect, and we've
been very transparent about that, and I think we learn
as much as I hope you listeners learn from us.
So I think the exchange of ideas is what this
is really all about, and that we welcome your call
ins and call out as as a part of that,
(35:19):
of that path for growth. I really also thoroughly enjoy
how the authors of that Jezebel piece kind of reconcile
their feelings about Judge. Shety, Oh, they're doing exactly what
I do. So they write, so like Mormon people who
baptize the dead, I will anoint Judge duty as a
feminist and get on with my life. That's basically what
I've done in my mind. She's a feminist. She doesn't
(35:41):
have to say it. I see it enough for me.
I love it, and I think that's a perfectly reasonable
way to psychologically compartmentalize your sort of phase status for
someone like Judge. Judy and listeners, I hope you enjoyed
today's conversation because there's a lot of problematic phase that
(36:01):
we would like to break down and discuss. In fact,
somebody that has been on the headlines a lot lately,
and you have already been writing into our inbox often
about who is probably this is what I posted on
your social media page on Facebook when you asked about
this is my number one problematic faith. And that's who
(36:23):
we're going to discuss on our next problematic fave episode,
and that is the one and only Taylor Swift. Taylor Swift.
We I have a lot of opinions about Taylor Swift.
I know she's your faith. I know she's probably the
faith of of lots of people, and she's great and
a lot don't tell me how problematic she is yet.
When you're ready, you're ready. We're here. You're here to
(36:45):
help me anytime, help me part here? Okay? Good? Anything
else before we sign off? I loved re falling in
love with Judge Judy. Thank you. One last thing, Google
Judge Judy vacation photo. There's an amazing photo of herod
vacation on a yacht wearing a kimono and a bikini.
(37:05):
You're glad to see this picture. It's an emblematic of
everything that is amazing about Judge Cheaty. Well, thank you
so much for taking your time to join us today.
I can't wait to hear more from you. Listeners and
Bridget and I are dying to know what your number
one problematic faves are. Send us a tweet at mom
Stuff podcast, tag us on Insta at Stuff Mom Never
(37:27):
told you, and as always, we love getting your emails.
Tell us all about your problematic faves and tell us
who you think we should break down next in an
episode just like this one by emailing us at mom
stuff at how stuff works dot com
This is Emily, and this is budget and you're listening
to stuff Mom never told you. And today I'm so
excited to talk through a topic that comes up quite
a bit in my life, and that is the topic
(00:26):
of problematic faves. What is a problematic fave? Bridget? Well,
I'm glad you asked. A problematic fave according to Urban Dictionary,
which is sort of a I mean, it's like, how
would you describe it? It's like v go to source
for the youngsters. Yeah, and for those like me who
want to keep up with the youngsters. And I also
highly recommend searching your own name in Yeah, sometimes it
(00:49):
gets a real specific. It'll be like, a bridget is
a person who never pays you back when she borrows money.
Do you have a bad experience with a bridget? Yeah,
you can go rant about and Emily, but check out
the difference between Emily with an I E and Emily
with a why and Urban Dictionary sometime I found it
pretty fascinating. Fascinating anyway, what is it actual thing about? So,
(01:09):
a problematic fave, according to Urban Dictionary is a favorite person,
usually a character who has problematic views and opinions. And
so I got thinking about this. Um. I am someone
who enjoys a wide spectrum of popular culture, including popular
culture made by people who maybe do not share my
personal values or political ideologies. And I got to thinking,
(01:32):
what is this concept? Why do we have them? Why
do you feel squeamish about them? Who are some common
problematic saves? So I put out a call to my
networks asking folks for their problematic saves. UM. Some of
the common ones folks said were Kim Kardashians or any
of the Kardashians really, um, Amy Schumer, Lena Dunham. Surprisingly,
a lot of people had an anxiety about being huge
(01:53):
fans of Lena Dunham's writing and her her working girls,
but feeling conflicted about it. UM Tina Fey, another big one,
Woody Allen, which I totally totally understand. Um. And then
some folks had other ones that are sort of more
nebulous or they're not people, UM, the Democratic Party or
Amazon Prime or Uber, these things that you use a
(02:15):
lot and that are kind of staples in our in
our culture, but maybe aren't always so great, right. I
think it's that contention between I intrinsically like what they're
doing or I like the service I'm getting where I
like the art that they're producing, but when I learn
more about the person behind that art or behind that
service or product, or when I learn more about how
(02:36):
that company operates, which is something I think we cover
a lot here around really values driven consumerism. Uh, I
feel conflicted. And the more you learn about a celebrity
you admire, and maybe she or he says something a
little off hand or off color, or does something terrible
in a very public way, there's this new, relatively new
(02:58):
way in which we, as can sumers, I think, are
holding celebrities and companies to a high moral standard, not
just based off of their artistic expression or based off
of the product or service, but how they do what
they do well. There's actually data that shows that a
lot of this is being driven by younger folks. Millennials
are actually much more likely to spend money with brands
(03:20):
if those brands are showing signs of being socially invested
or or socially conscious. In twenty fifteen, Nielsen published its
annual Global Corporate Sustainability Report and indicated that globally, sixties
of consumers are willing to spend more on a product
if it comes from a sustainable brand. Millennials are even
more likely to spend if these brands were sustainable, with
surveyed indicating a similar preference. So basically, younger folks really
(03:44):
expect brands that they spend money on, and I guess
by that logic celebrities and media and culture that they
consume to have some sort of social responsibility or or
social or civic investment. Yeah, which feels to me relatively new,
but I guess this is something that's come in and
out of over the years. Right. We think back in
(04:05):
the eighties and nineties, celebrities like Jane Fonda, Paul Newman,
they've been walking the walk and getting politically involved or
advocating for causes in addition to promoting their products or
movies or celebrity. So I know you have done a
lot of speaking. I think it's south By Southwest about
celebrity activist culture. Yeah. Well, I my um my theory
(04:29):
is that for celebrities in this day and age, everything
is sort of political right now, and for a celebrity
to not genuinely engage with politics or activism or social
causes or something other than just their own celebrity, those
are the celebrities that don't really have staying power. And
so when you think of people who were really huge
that didn't really meaningfully do that, I think of people
(04:49):
like Adeasalia. Those are the people that I see who
sort of were beg for a while then flamed out.
Because in order to really have a lasting presence, you
need people need to feel like you're meaning invested in
the world, not just being your product. That's interesting my theory.
I think that's a great theory because it feels authentic
to see a fully rounded array of interest from some celebrities,
(05:10):
right like you see their full person. And when I
think about when the term problematic faith really got into
the cultural zekaist, I'm reminded of this Tumbler blog that
was really really really well known back in the early
days of Tumbler called your Faith It's Problematic, And basically
this blog was dedicated to highlighting the ways in which
people that were kind of catapulted into faith status, people
(05:33):
that people that we all probably know and love, your
Amy Schumer's of the World, your Tina Face of the World,
cataloging the things they did that were quote problematic. So
justin Biebers at the top of um and so they
really saw this, whether or not this is true or not,
they really presented this as we are just, you know,
(05:54):
historical database of celebrities. You know, we're not saying they're
bad people, We're not saying don't like them, or just
giving you the facts. Right. They would always claim, according
to the Vice article that quote, their site is merely
an archive, saying we just document problematic things that celebrities
have done. We are record keepers and nothing more. Yeah,
(06:14):
this idea falls flat on its face after just a
small peruse of the archive, where opinion rules it's not
record keeping to call someone a quote piece of something
I can't say on the radio, or trash, and that
the idea of that fairly objective things like whether it's
acceptable for a Bijan woman to wear a kimono can
even be subject to quote record is tenuous at best.
(06:37):
So I just love how this Vice article kind of
brings a little bit of that problematic Fave methodology to
their blog and saying even though we like this and
this sort of call out call in culture around celebrities
can be intriguing and interesting and helpful, don't pretend like
you're just record keepers, because you are certainly not being
(07:00):
fully objective journalism here totally. So I kind of like
how he highlights the problematic nature of of your your
favorite problematic dot com dot com um. But I think
what that article really also nails for me is the
way in which these terms that we are If you're
someone who spends a lot of time in progressive or
social social justice spaces that we think of, it's pretty common.
(07:22):
Terms like microaggressions or fat shaming or body shaming. These
were things that you know, back in the day, people
weren't talking about, and I think he is right that
this blog really made them more mainstream. He writes, before
I came across this website, the concepts of cultural appropriation, microaggressions,
fat shaming as a body politic and not just an insult,
trans misogyny, the words cyst and a slew of others
(07:44):
were essentially new to me, and I imagined to a
lot of people. These terms were presented via the criticism
of celebrities. Something is something we all consciously are not
partaken regularly, and so really taking these terms out of
like the gender studies textbook and applying them to you know,
Kina Fey was a kind of new thing, and I
don't think people were really doing it in that way
(08:05):
before a certain time in our in our culture. Yeah,
and I think there's a level of discomfort around critiquing
something that everybody likes. Right when you are listening to
your favorite recording artists and just jamming along to I
don't know, hip hop lyrics that might be drenched in misogyny,
(08:26):
as we've discussed before, and fully enjoying every moment of
low Wayne blaring into your earbuds. And then you've got
a blog like this tumbler calling out celebrities for their
misogyny or for being blind to his gender privilege. Right,
there's this defensiveness that I think is inherent to the
(08:49):
human experience. You want to cheerlead someone, but you want
to also have the space and be able to psychologically
hold them accountable and know that it's nuanced. And I
think a lot of folks still find it really troubling,
even on our podcast, because we do talk about individual women, um,
whether it's Avanka Trump and her feminism, or if it's
(09:11):
other business owners or celebrity women or women in the
labor movement and leaders, and we definitely bring our opinions
to the table and talking about what we love about
these women and what we find problematic. I think there's
this inherent defensiveness that comes up for folks of saying,
you can't say anything bad about someone I really admire,
someone that I really like. Yeah, and I think I
(09:34):
completely agreed, And I've definitely been on the receiving end
of how dare you have an opinion about such and
such celebrity that I really enjoy? Not saying any names, Um,
but I get it. I get it, and I definitely
have felt that as a as a feminist, as a
progressive person, that it's canna be hard to just enjoy
something that's Like one of my favorite headlines from The
Onion woman takes short half hour break from being a
(09:57):
feminist to enjoy TV show so that I get it.
Just feels like, can you just enjoy a song, or
enjoy a show, or enjoy a celebrity, or enjoy a
media thing or culture thing without having to unpack the
ways in which it's problematic and feminist and socially sensitive
lens that you have on all the time. I often
(10:19):
find myself calling things out or just pointing out some
problematic things in culture or in whatever it is that
we're consuming and bradle Goo, is this a feminist thing?
And I'm like, yes, dear, yes it is. Yeah, here
we go again. He's like, oh, I was, I was
hoping to just enjoy this movie. I just want you
(10:39):
to notice who who the protagonists are over and over again,
and the racial disparity in our TV proper does not
pass the best shelt'. He's like, is that a feminist thing?
I love it, but the most satisfying thing I have
then witnessed Brad the Boo say similar things in front
of all of his dude friends while they're trying to
(11:02):
enjoy something, and I'm just like, I'm just sitting back
so proud. Yeah, like feminist call out to the gift
that keep on giving. Like you give it to Brad,
he gives it to his friends like I've infected you,
Like you can't take the lens off now either. Congrats.
I love it. I mean I think really what this
comes down to is that, really, everybody, if you want
to live our values, but sometimes it can be hard
(11:23):
when we enjoy something that doesn't also reflect those values.
And I think it's interesting how you really only see
that kind of recently. Over at Vox, Jamie Wyman argues
that sometime in the past decade, socially conscious criticism became
the norm. And so when you think about shows like
How I Met Your Mother, shows like Friends, they were
often kind of criticized for not being racially diverse or
(11:45):
not being inclusive, but the shows didn't necessarily feel like
they needed to respond to that in an oversized way.
And I don't think there was mainstream criticism. No, So
I know on Friends they added I think it was
a Shia Tyler kind of like late late in the show,
um as a response to that. I know on Signfeld
they kind of poke fun at it, but they didn't
really have any kind of It wasn't a mainstream argument,
and we didn't really feel the need to, um, you know,
(12:08):
divers off either cast in a city like New York
because a bunch of white people living in a huge
apartment in New York to while they work at coffee shops.
Totally realistic. Yeah, everything else about it was totally true,
as true as the diversity on that show, totally, but
they weren't held to that higher standard. Unlike years later,
Lena Dunham's Girls. Yeah, so inveum the controversy around Girls
(12:31):
and the lack of racial racial inclusion on the show,
she had to comment on that. She had to add
black characters. She had to say like, oh, this is
not a political choice to not add you know, diverse characters.
We want to do that. She was had to. She
was made to comment on it quite a bit in
a way that other shows, even not even that long ago,
shows like How I Met Your Mother, um, just were
(12:51):
not right. And I actually found most of Lena's responses
to be quite good, right, Like, I found that she
was humble, she was appreciative of the call in, and
she really said I learned a lot through the process
of getting culturally critiqued. And this is a very young
woman with a very successful HBO series thrown into the
(13:16):
deep end, right, It's like, as a creator, putting your
work out there is a vulnerable experience. She got called
out rightfully so for being whitewashed completely in terms of
every main character on that show. But then her response
to it, whether you know, adding in Donald Glover was
sufficient or not as a love interest, I don't think
(13:38):
is the point here, because I don't think that her
adaptations were ever going to be sufficient because the main
characters had already been set. But the way that she
responded to those critiques I thought was pretty good. I
thought was effective. Would you say that she's one of
your problematic faces? Definitely? I was gonna say that that
was a little like, um, defensive, not defensive, but again, yeah,
(13:59):
like when we like someone it is I'm the same
way with my problematically. If Miley Cyrus could have responded
half as effectively as Lena Dunham had responded to her critiques,
you know she would be way less problematic. H. I agree,
you know what I saying, Like Lena Dunham said, you're right,
I need to make adjustments. I totally didn't check my
privilege here, but you've helped me acknowledge my blindness to race,
(14:24):
and you know she's going to do the best. She
can't tell her story from her life's experiences, which I
have a feeling pretty white, h and pretty privileged, and
yet she's gonna stretch, she's gonna make changes, she's going
to include folks of color in her operation, not just
on the screen, but behind the scenes too, right, Um, yeah,
(14:46):
I mean that's why I get it. I mean it's
when you really admire someone, particularly someone who is a
creative or makes a product that you really appreciate, it
can be hard to I see myself giving my problematic
Dave the benefit of the doubt time and time and
time and time and time again. I'm going to reveal
who my problematic save is after the short break and
(15:15):
we're back, and I was just about to reveal my
number one problematic save. I should say I have a
lot of problematic faves. This one is my most not
for the most problematic, but my favious face. Um and
it is. That was a drum roll. I f headphone
(15:36):
Judge Judith Shinelon a k A. Judge Judy. Yes, y'all,
I'm obsessed with Judge Judy. I have a framed picture
of her in my home. I've tried to get into
the audience of Judge Duty many many, many times, but
you have to be an actual actor to be in
the audience. If you ever actually watched such duty, the
(15:57):
people who are watching the show like watching it during
the taping. They have the most expressive faces, are always
making the most intense shock face or gas face. It's
because they're all after good. They're like, this is my moment.
Mom watched me two pm on Thursday. Um, I watched it.
(16:17):
I DVR is the only thing I DVR. It's my
favorite thing. So I have to admit I hadn't even
thought of Judge Judy for I don't know a decade
until you admitted this to me the other week when
we were talking about this episode. So what is it
that you love about Judge Judy. First of all, her
show is entertaining as hell. I'm not kidding. If you
(16:38):
have a hard day at work, go watch Judge Judy.
It's like the perfect half hour of television. You get
four like dramatic, juicy, other other people's problems, other people's stories.
You get to like dive in. She basically is the
Greek chorus of the show because like what you're thinking
she says, and you're like, that's true. Um. She has
this amazing relationship with her bailiff bird where is lots
(17:00):
of eye rolls and like shared glances. And I also
just love that she I love her story. I love
that she got ahead while having this attitude being no nonsense.
You know. I I am always struck by women who
become very famous or very popular or beloved who aren't
sweet and demure and night And she's done that and
(17:22):
that's not easy to do. I mean a see Hillary
Clinton right, seeing any other assertive woman, joy beharor so
so many When I see a woman who is takes
no bs and is blunt and she's beloved, I'm I'm
I'm automatically on board. Yeah, I mean, people see her
as fair and just. So how does she get to
(17:44):
this TV fame? Like how did how does she get
to this level of celebrity? So fun fact about Judge
Judy She is an actual real judge. Not every judge
on TV is a real judge, but she is a
real judge and so she actually didn't start doing TV
until pretty late in life. She got her start in
nine two, when she was appointed by Mayor Ed Koch
as a criminal court judge. Four years later, she was
(18:06):
promoted to supervising judge in the Family Courts Manhattan Division.
Here she owned a reputation as being tough, even though
she didn't like thinking of herself as tough. But she
us would have known for her wit, for her bluntness,
and I mean New York in the eighties was not
the safest or most. You know, it's not what it
is now. It was kind of a depressing place and
working at a family is not easy. I mean, there's
(18:29):
and it totally reminds me of the kinds of issues
that she deals with. I think it was on Facebook
recently that a little clip from her show went viral
about a dog custody, my favorite. Also, they talked about
it on broad City about that episode of this little
dog comes into the quare room and she says, just
put the dog down, and these two people are arguing
(18:50):
over who owns the dog, and of course the dog
runs up. If you haven't seen the episode, the dog
runs up to this person, one of the people I
think the plainted, and jumps all over him, kisses him,
and he picks him up, and and she's like, case hammer,
you know what is that? What is that? Hammer? Gavel?
That's it? Gavel away and case close. I just I mean,
(19:14):
she is decisive and she's unapologetic, and that definitely was
noticed as a young attorney in New York City. That
appointment to becoming a judge is pretty incredible. Um, and
her reputation got the attention of the l A Times. Right. Yeah,
so in this really great l A Times article. She's
(19:36):
sort of framed as being a no nonsense judge that
is taking is making sure that our institutions are representing
the quote common good, and so I loved this idea
of her sort of using family court to make sure
that these institutions are actually representing people in a way
that is fair, which I think is great. It's amazing
(19:56):
to see how years of hard work, years of hard
work in the law end up getting her noticed in
the l A Times, which then spins into a piece
on sixty Minutes. So that's really her TV debut, and
sixty Minutes that spot I'm sure had something to do
(20:17):
with her getting on TV as an in the next
phase of her career. So it's insane to think you're
going through law school, right, You're busting your butt as
a male dominated field in which you are not always
deemed worthy or felt welcome in that environment. You are
this a cerbic, hard hitting, takes no prisoners kind of judge.
(20:39):
You get promoted, you get noticed, you get written about,
you get on sixty Minutes, and back in that time
in her life, like as a young attorney, she never
would have imagined herself being the queen of daytime TV
right and being being being a actual like media mogul,
just based on her personality, her wit and her hard work.
I mean, that's like a fairy tale. Someone sees you
crazy in your job so well and so interestingly and
(21:02):
so competently that they're like the universe plucks you out
of obscurity to be hugely, hugely famous and successful. I
love it. Often does that happen. I feel like that's
the beauty of her story. I get it. I love it.
I read her book, it's so good. Like her books titles,
please tell us the title, don't pee on my leg
and tell me it's raining. What Another thing I love
(21:24):
about her is that her bailiff on the show Bird,
he isn't just an actor, He's an actual bailiff and
he was her bailiff back in the days when she
was in family court um. And basically they always had
this chemistry with each other. They've always if you watched
the show, they're known for their shared glances, and she'll
often throw to Bird and he'll be like, oh, I
don't even know Judge, Like they had this great banter
(21:45):
and I just love I remember reading a story where
when she was being picked to go on TV. She
called Bird to tell him, and Bird was like, well,
you know, I still look good in my unicorn and
she was like, yeah, you should be my bailiff. And
now he's a millionaire. She made him a millionaire, a
millionaire with I love. It was amazing and I just
love that this chemistry they have has really kind of
made her the undisputed champ of syndication on TV. Yeah,
(22:07):
I mean according to varieties list of highest paid TV
stars of two thousand and sixteen, Judge Judy is the
highest paid TV star, earning an estimated forty seven million
dollars a year for her show, which by the way,
is in its twenty feet season. That is so insane.
That number forty seven million seems completely insane to me
(22:30):
until you look at how much money her show brings
in Okay. Variety says that the show brings in between
a hundred and sixty and a hundred and seventy million
dollars a year in revenue, and it's the most watched
national program in daytime TV, with an average of ten
point three million viewers a week. I I thought for
sure it would have been Ellen. By the way, Oh no,
(22:51):
she's richer than Ellen's, isn't it nuts? Like that's that
blows my mind. And again she's like a sleeper logal
because you don't really hear about her in a in
a business way the way that you hear about folks
like Oprah or Ellen or you know. Yeah, And she's
an executive producer of another show, So Judge Judy is
the number one court daytime court show on TV and
(23:12):
the number two is Hot Bench that she also produces. Right,
So she's a straight up mogul in case y'all didn't know.
And as a straight up mogul, she also negotiates like
a boss. So as it happens when she was negotiating
with CBS, she this is like straight out of Mafia playbook, okay,
(23:33):
or the Gangster Playbook, because she would have a regular
steakhouse dinner with the network president, during which time she
would casually hand him an envelope containing the number that
will be her new salary that would be will be,
and it also will list any other demands or request
(23:54):
that she has. Quote. I hand him the envelope and
I say, don't read it now, let's have a nice dinner.
She would then say call me tomorrow if you want it, fine,
otherwise I'll produce it myself. And that is Judge Judy's
form of negotiation. How can you not love? That means
(24:15):
something out of my fantasies, and she can. She can
do it like she's so powerful and so successful and
so good. She's got it, like she's one of a kind.
I don't know why we missed that tactic in the negotiation,
take your to take your boss to a steak let
me know, don't open it now, Let's enjoy a nice
meal first. I think that is like the real death
(24:38):
knell of that. So she's a boss, there's no doubt
about it. Judge Judy is getting paid, she's taken no prisoners.
She has risen up from relative obscurity to being the
highest paid daytime TV mogul and talent. So what's not
(24:58):
to love, bridget Well, I'll tell you what's not to
love after this quick break and we're back. And I
was just talking about my number one faith, Judge Judy,
who's rapidly becoming my number one faith. The best should
(25:18):
be everyone's faith. But here's why she's a problematic faith
and not just a faith faive judge Judy commits my
number one feminist. Sin uh, well, maybe not number one,
but one of many. When you ask someone are you
a feminist? And they waffle, I hate that so much.
She didn't even really waffle. She said no, she does
(25:40):
not embody the term at all. She does not. Did
she not get the memo from Adici in this sample
track in the middle of Fiance's album, come on, we
should all be feminists? Yeah, I think that everybody should
be a feminist, but I think especially I'm particularly bothered
when someone says I'm not a feminist. I just think
that men and women should have the same I just
(26:00):
think that men and women should have to be paid
the same. I just think that men and women should
be equal society. And I'm saying that's saying I mean,
it frustrates me to no when right, Well, it's just
a good reminder that people hear the word feminist and
still don't immediately think gender equality, which is what feminism
is all about. It's not about women above men. It's
(26:22):
really about the equal social, political, economic, whatever justice between
women and men. And it's just a bummer that even
you know, as smart and savvy and witty as the
sixties seven year old TV judge, who by the way,
is a mother of five and grandmother of eleven, is
not setting the role model of not only being a mogul,
(26:44):
not only being an unapologetically assertive women, but also saying
that makes me a feminist. It's just it's just a bummer.
It is a bummer. I'm really taken by this article
in jezz Bell a few years ago about Judge Judy
and her feminism or lack thereof, where she basically kind
of denies sexism and doesn't see the sexism inherent in
her own come up story. She says, I never felt
(27:06):
I didn't have an equal opportunity as a woman, despite
the fact that she earlier mentioned that she was one
of only six women enrolled in her law school, where
she also admits professors didn't have much regard for female students,
and she goes on to say, some of the professors
treated you as if you were a skunk at a
lawn party, and as if you were there as a hobby.
Sometimes that takes away your spirit, and sometimes it makes
you tougher. It made me mad and tough. There were
(27:29):
a lot of schmucky guys in my class who were
all going to be mediocre lawyers at best. And to me,
I mean, how can you not read that anecdote and say,
look at that. That is that is gender inequality, that
is sexism. But she, for some reason, to her, it's like, oh,
it made me tough, and that's why I don't need
feminists and not a feminist because I saw this as
(27:50):
the setback. And I isn't this like classic second generation
shoulder pad wearing eight nineteen eighties there can only be
one woman at the top type feminism, because all I
can think of is this is like a feminist version
of the Horatio alger myth, which is classic to the
American come up story, which is this idea pull yourself
(28:13):
up by your bootstraps, just like I did. Why can't you?
She killed it. Clearly her career worked out, but that
doesn't mean gender discrimination doesn't prevent a hundred million other
equally talented judge judy's out there who aren't given that
same shot. So she's saying, yeah, it was tough. Sexism
chipped up my ego on occasion and made things a
(28:35):
little tougher for me. But I never felt like I
didn't have equal opportunity. It's this very libertarian way of saying,
I made my own opportunities, so why can't you? And
you've always said on this podcast, feminism is not about
one woman's rise, right, Yeah, Feminism is not one is
not cheering one woman doing awesome, although that's great. Feminism
(28:58):
is about lifting up there's Feminism is about acknowledging that
even if another female identified person has different problems, different struggles,
different chains, different oppression, our oppression is a linked and
I can't get free unless she is also free, exactly,
And I think that's where Judge Judy sees that very differently.
She sees the world very differently. I would venture to
guess she's a Republican. I mean, she really clearly believes
(29:20):
in in individualism and that pull yourself up by your
own bootstraps type and mentality. In that same article, she says, quote,
I believe in the individual spirit. It was hard for
me to put my heart into organizations that were trying
to tell me something that I never felt. In that quote,
she's referencing feminist uprising organizations, and I understand where she's
(29:42):
coming from. She's saying, I never really felt discriminated against.
So all that discrimination that you're talking about other women,
I don't know, maybe women across the spectrum of intersectional feminism,
maybe women who don't have the same skin tone as
I do, or don't have the same uh sexual or
intation than I do, or ability that I do, etcetera, etcetera,
(30:03):
and onward that discrimination and describing I never felt that,
so therefore it's not valid and there's no need to
work against it in any kind of organized way. Um.
I have to stick up for Judge Juty in the
typical problematic fame defensiveness. She claims to have voted for
Barack Obama. She is pro choice and pro gay marriage.
(30:24):
She does definitely have some She's sort of like Angie Harmon.
I don't know if you watch Law and Order, but
she's I could talk all day about how much I
love Angie Harmon, but is a huge Republican. Um. Yeah,
but who do you think she voted for? Kills me
if I use Sweet Jesus, she cannot. If I find
out that Judge Dudy voted for Trump, my life will
be over. Sorry and Jen, Sorry, Oh my gosh, Judge Duty,
(30:50):
if you're listening, please get get in touch with me.
We can work it out. If you voted for Trump,
we can get you out of this. Thank you. I
don't know, can we. I think we need her to
save us. She's a strong woman. Clinic. I would she
identified with Clintic. She has to. They're so similar in
(31:10):
some ways. I don't know it is It would make
her much more problematic, wouldn't it if she voted. But
here's the thing I get. I really do have a
ton of respect for a lot of Republicans, and I
get the free market, capitalist approach. I'm a business owner.
I believe in capitalism as a vehicle for positive change
to not just oppression, which we've had some really interesting
(31:32):
conversations with our fans on social media about recently. Yeah,
I mean, I I feel bit differently. I would not
call myself a capitalist, but so I sort of see though.
I mean, I see, I have respect for what she's accomplished,
and I understand this blindness to other people's oppression. I
just don't think I think she can do better. I
(31:56):
think she's got incredible intellect and wit and empathy clearly
is involved in being a good judge. So I'd be
surprised for her to not have her awoken NG. You know,
from an intersectional feminist perspective, maybe that's Sara. Maybe we
can have lunch with her. Yeah, maybe we can. I would.
Maybe we can send our intersectional feminism law. If anyone
(32:18):
has a connection to Judge Juty, please get in touch
with me. I would. I would die happy. And I'm
sure we could all learn from each other at that. Definitely, definitely.
But I think you know, when I bring it back
to this, this concept of being a problematic faith, I
think the tumbler your favorite problematic if you go to
there frequently ask questions, I think they really kind of
capture how I feel. So you were to write in
and say, okay, my favorite problematic. Now what they write,
(32:41):
I'm sorry it upsets you, but it's important to remember
that our favorites are human and they will make mistakes
and do or say bad things. This does not necessarily
mean they are bad people, nor does it mean that
you cannot like them all. It means that you should
acknowledge their flaws and that they should be held accountable
for them. And I think that is hard, but I
think that is so so right. And so you know,
(33:02):
if you have a problematic faith, whether it's Judge Duty
or Kim Kardashian or Justin Bieber or Woody Allen. Maybe
not him, but um I mean his art. Yeah, yeah,
I get it, you know, acknowledging. It's okay that I
still like this person. It's okay that I can't separate
Bill Cusby. Oh that's is it? Okay? I have to
(33:27):
say I've mentioned on the show how much I love
the show A Different World, which he's not in to produced.
So I will always like that show, but he's quickly
becoming someone to me that like. It's also R Kelly.
If you still like Kelly, I'm giving you major side eyes.
It's the other rapper that always we always waffle on.
(33:49):
It's not Chris Brent, it's Drake. Okay, yeah, I mean
comparatively all right, But what you were saying is that
it's okay, it's okay. And I think what they're saying is,
you know, to be honest about it, and it's okay
to recognize people's flaws. I also think it's really interesting
that one of the questions they have on their fa
queues are okay, well, your your blog is problematic. Are
(34:12):
you going to post on that, and they say, we
do not think we are exempt from doing problematic things.
We we want to be called out when we do.
We do not think this blog is perfect. We have
made mistakes in the past. We are not witty or
original by sending this sort of message. And I think,
as as sort of meta as that is, that's what
it all comes down to, Like our faiths are problematic.
We are problematic. I am problematic. You are problematic. Everything
(34:34):
is problematic, and that's okay. We're here and that just
makes us analytical and interesting and open to learning and growth.
I really think it's about having a growth mindset on
this stuff, and that I think is hopefully we've made
it clear that we're really walking the walk on this
because this podcast is an exercise in hopefully where somebody's faiths,
(34:56):
you know what I mean. If I'm your faith, I'm
hella problematic exactly. I mean, we're all imperfect, and we've
been very transparent about that, and I think we learn
as much as I hope you listeners learn from us.
So I think the exchange of ideas is what this
is really all about, and that we welcome your call
ins and call out as as a part of that,
(35:19):
of that path for growth. I really also thoroughly enjoy
how the authors of that Jezebel piece kind of reconcile
their feelings about Judge. Shety, Oh, they're doing exactly what
I do. So they write, so like Mormon people who
baptize the dead, I will anoint Judge duty as a
feminist and get on with my life. That's basically what
I've done in my mind. She's a feminist. She doesn't
(35:41):
have to say it. I see it enough for me.
I love it, and I think that's a perfectly reasonable
way to psychologically compartmentalize your sort of phase status for
someone like Judge. Judy and listeners, I hope you enjoyed
today's conversation because there's a lot of problematic phase that
(36:01):
we would like to break down and discuss. In fact,
somebody that has been on the headlines a lot lately,
and you have already been writing into our inbox often
about who is probably this is what I posted on
your social media page on Facebook when you asked about
this is my number one problematic faith. And that's who
(36:23):
we're going to discuss on our next problematic fave episode,
and that is the one and only Taylor Swift. Taylor Swift.
We I have a lot of opinions about Taylor Swift.
I know she's your faith. I know she's probably the
faith of of lots of people, and she's great and
a lot don't tell me how problematic she is yet.
When you're ready, you're ready. We're here. You're here to
(36:45):
help me anytime, help me part here? Okay? Good? Anything
else before we sign off? I loved re falling in
love with Judge Judy. Thank you. One last thing, Google
Judge Judy vacation photo. There's an amazing photo of herod
vacation on a yacht wearing a kimono and a bikini.
(37:05):
You're glad to see this picture. It's an emblematic of
everything that is amazing about Judge Cheaty. Well, thank you
so much for taking your time to join us today.
I can't wait to hear more from you. Listeners and
Bridget and I are dying to know what your number
one problematic faves are. Send us a tweet at mom
Stuff podcast, tag us on Insta at Stuff Mom Never
(37:27):
told you, and as always, we love getting your emails.
Tell us all about your problematic faves and tell us
who you think we should break down next in an
episode just like this one by emailing us at mom
stuff at how stuff works dot com
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