Problematic Faves: Taylor Swift

Bridget and Emilie are joined by Refinery29's Elisa Kreisinger to talk through Taylor Swift's talent, influence, and feminism.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Emily, and this is Bridget, and you're
listening to stuff mom never told you. Today, we are
so excited to be joined by Elisa Chrissinger, executive producer
over at Refinery nine, who hosts a awesome, fierce feminist

(00:29):
podcast and video series called Strong Opinions Loosely Held. Thanks
so much for tuning in today to help us talk
through this very fraught subject. Alisa, We're so glad to
have you. Okay, thanks so much for having me. I'm
so excited to walk through this with you, guys. So
Elisa and I actually go way back. I guess I
should say, Alisa, Taylor Swift and I go way back.

(00:53):
Alisa put together a fabulous, fabulous panel at south By
Southwest last year all about celebrities and activism, and Taylor
Swift came up quite a bit. The number one question
that we left that panel with was who did Taylor
Swift to vote for? Later on, I was on an
episode of her really amazing show talking about Taylor Swift
and all the ins and outs of who she is
as a feminist, as an artist and all of that.

(01:14):
So we really alsa, we really go way back when
it comes to we do totally. And I think it
kind of started when you posted that thing on Facebook
about who your most problematic save was, and I scrolled
through it and so many people said Taylor Swift exactly,
and that was when we started this series. You may
recall our lovely listeners. The first episode we did on

(01:37):
Problematic Faves was with the One and Only Judge Judy,
which was such a fun episode and I loved putting
that together. And I'm not gonna lie when I dropped
in that Taylor Swift was my problematic fave, and so
many of you agreed. I have been dragging my feet
putting this episode together because I was seriously dreading it. Well,
people love Taylor Swift. I love Taylor Swift, and I

(01:59):
have to come out first and foremost by saying the
reason problematic saves are hard is because you're trying to reconcile.
And that's what we're gonna trying to do today with
everybody here. How you can both respect and love the
artistry of someone like Taylor Swift and hold them accountable totally.
I think she represents a great example of how you

(02:20):
can be both a fan of popular culture but a
critic of it. At the same time, exactly what I
think we should do today, as so many people are
tuning into this thinking like, Okay, walk me through this.
I've I've seen the tweets. Have you seen these? Bridget
to our Twitter handle saying I need you to unpack
Taylor Swift for me because I have so many feels
for her. So what I'd like to start with is

(02:41):
what about her do we love and respect? And what
about her is seriously problematic and worthy of of breaking down?
Does that sounds like a good place to start. That
sounds like a good place to start. I just want
to give a big caveat I don't actually care for
Taylor Swift, and I hope that the thing about this
one than people didn't care for that opinion. You know

(03:02):
what has my opinion. I don't have to like everybody.
I don't care tylor Swift Bridges Bridget is coming out
as anti Taylor Swift anti I will go that far.
I don't care for her. Okay, Yeah, that's an important distinction. Okay,
At Lisa, where do you stand on the Taylor Swift
love a meter? Yeah? I mean I think that no
one represents the resentment America has towards white women better

(03:25):
than Taylor Swift, and I think that pushes me more
towards a love and a hate. I think she's got
a great opportunity to do something with the platform and
power and privilege that she has, but she kind of hasn't.
So I'm like, I'm very lukewarm. I saw squarely. I
think in between both of you, Okay, well, this is good.
They should make for a good conversation. Then I'm like

(03:48):
sweating already, but this is good, So let me start here.
And I'm not trying to position myself as the defender
of Taylor Swift. I'm just here to say you are
now I'm really sweating, um. But I do think that
what I have recognized and putting this episode together is
that it is very easy to want to look away

(04:10):
when someone you are a fan of is doing some questionable,
shady right, Like it is easy to catch yourself ignoring
the bad because you want to vehemently and only support
the good. And we're going to talk about today how
we can hold those two truths at the same time,
and why it's okay to have problematic faiths just like
Judge Judy, but why it's also really really important that

(04:32):
we hold our celebrity idols accountable. So first and foremost
as an entrepreneur, I find her drive and her vision
and the fact that she made this lifelong ambition of
hers a reality and was very much central as a
young girl really to positioning herself for the pop sensation.
She's become like. She was very much in the driver's

(04:54):
seat of her own career from a young age, and that,
to go way back to Taylor's origins, that is one
of the things that really wins my respect in her case.
I can definitely respect the idea that she was this
young girl with a dream and she made that dream
of reality. That's something that Taylors all those time, got
to give it up for that. I definitely applaud her

(05:14):
for making that happen, and that's not something that's easy.
Something that I've actually always liked about Taylor is that
she's has a lot of control over her art and
over her career. And so, you know, you see a
lot of things in the media about young pop stars
who kind of somebody else is driving all the shots
and making all the calls, and their label is being
awful and they just put up with it. Taylor is

(05:35):
not someone who does that right. At eleven years old,
she convinced her mom to take her on a trip
to Nashville where she could go door to door on
Nashville record labels, giving them a homemade CD demo no
bites right, So she got no traction from that, and
at eleven years old, that's cute, like, oh, a little
girl with the dream. But the rejection that she experienced

(05:58):
could have been a career ender from most eleven year old,
but not for Taylor. She at that point learned to
play guitar, started writing her own songs I'm sure, bankrolled
by her very well off parents, with a lot of
assistants from professionals. But at fourteen years old, when our
ci A, one of the largest record labels in Nashville,
gave her a development deal which was kind of like

(06:20):
an investment for a year. I wasn't a full record deal,
but it was like, let's fund your learning and growth
and progress and see what happens. But at the end
of the year they took a pass on her. We're
not going to fund a record deal. Wanted to keep
her on the label, but shelf her and she walked
away from our ci a and at that same time

(06:41):
convinced her entire family to relocate to Nashville for her
career at fourteen years old. I mean that you've got
to give it up for her that I applaud her.
I applaud her. I will give a caveat that Luckily
she had the kind of family where relocating to a
different city to support the artistic dream of your young
daughter was it reality. Because I've heard many, many, many

(07:02):
stories of like, oh, I've got my mixtape, my demo,
I've been telling showing it to everybody, but that that
same person doesn't have the means to do that, the
story could go very differently. So I applaud that very
very much. But I think it's very lucky that she
had that kind of family support where that was possible totally.
And to on that note to Bridget, I think you
know a lot of her brand has been built on

(07:24):
being an outsider, but really she grew up on a
Christmas tree farm. Um. She has this very ideal childhood,
and not that we should be holding that against her,
but it certainly helps to find and follow your dreams
when you come from wealth and privilege. Both of her parents, Um,
were executives UM at banks, and she herself actually wanted

(07:46):
to go into the banking industry before she found UM,
before she found country music, before she found country music
specifically UM. I think that she was most inspired by
a crossover artist on the nineties like Faith Hill, she
and I Twain and the Dixie Chicks. And then she
changed her tune no pun intended, and UM wanted to

(08:09):
go in a different direction, which again I applaud her hustle,
just like you said, totally applaud her hustle. I mean
it's in bridget copy paste. Yeah, but it's a lot
easier to do, and your parents have a ton of money, exactly,
And she had parents who were willing to listen to her.
So here's the thing. Yes, she comes from a bunch
of privilege, financial privilege, the privilege of having two parents

(08:32):
who were willing to support your insane dream at eleven
years old or fourteen years old, and beyond that, parents
who were willing to invest hard earned money, time, energy,
and effort in your pipe dream. Really and yet, at
the same time, being wealthy does not make you talented.
Being wealthy and privileged does not make you ambitious, and

(08:54):
it sure as hell doesn't make it a guaranteed that
at a showcase, she had a Nashville at four teen
years old, Scott Borshetta who had just left another huge
record label, I believe Universal. He approached her and said, so,
the good news is, I want to sign you for
a record deal. The bad news is I don't have
a record label. You would be the first person. So

(09:15):
she took a chance on him, and three years later
her record sales topped seven million. Seven million three years later,
that's hugely impressive. And just to go back for a second,
I think the point that I'm making is that both
things can be true. It can be true that she's
ambitious and talented but also had a lot of help
and was very lucky and had supportive, privileged parents, and

(09:35):
that was also a very influential for her success. And
so I'm not saying that, oh, the only reason why
she did that is because she's rich and her parents
are supportive and blah blah blah. Obviously not because you
have to have talent, right, So at the end of
the day, she does have talent. I think that's clear.
So I just think it's possible that both things exactly
exactly and that's part of what's challenging about being a

(09:55):
fan of hers and hearing the critics. It's like, yes,
those things are both true. Can we acknowledge that they're
both present? The other thing that's undeniable is that her
songs are hella catchy in fact. Okay, putting reputation aside
for a second, because we all have very strong opinions
on reputation. Her latest album, which we're gonna talk about further,
but there was an SNL skit that I think put

(10:16):
it perfectly that was called Swift Mean, and it was
a commercial kind of like for dramamine for sudden onset
of vertigo induced by the fact that you're jamming out
to a song at the club and then you realize
it's by Taylor Swift and you're like, what, I'm a
grown ass woman and I love Taylor Swift. Girl can

(10:37):
write a song and it's so perfect because it's hilariously
fraught in that you love the music and then when
you realize it's by who Taylor Swift? That album, that
last album really reached across the age spectrum and I
think got a lot of people on board with Taylor
Swift music. What do you think a Lisa, Yeah, I

(10:57):
think she's really good at what she does. She's a
great artist, and no one can deny that. I think
that we all want to make sure that our politics
match our popular culture. So I think in terms of
popular culture, she's awesome had it. She knows the game.
She plays it really well when it comes to making
a product that people can't get out of their heads, right,

(11:17):
And that's what her role as a pop star is.
So totally a plus in that category for sure. So
I'm not the biggest fan of her music, but you know,
I love pop music. I love pop songs. And one
of the things I love the most about pop music
is that it doesn't even matter if it's a genre
that you like or an artist that you like. You
when you hear a perfect pop song, you know what's
a perfect pop song, right, So like when you hear

(11:38):
Katy Perry's Teenage Dream, like, you know, whether you like
Katy Perry or not, whether you like that kind of
music or not, you know it's a perfect pop song.
And so I think, kind of like what at LSA
was just saying, she's so good at creating these perfect
pop songs as a as a product, and that even
if you don't like Taylor Swift, you don't like her music,
you listen to something like shake It Off, and you know,
that's a perfect pop song, right like it just it

(12:01):
doesn't like like it's undeniable. So I will say, I mean,
even though I'm not her biggest fan musically, I can
recognize that she really knows that she's doing when it
comes to crafting a marketable, perfect well crafted pop song.
And really what's interesting is that she came up in
country right. She came up in the country world and
in many ways broadened the genres reached by writing teenage

(12:24):
love songs really about high school era heartbreak that popularized
country music amongst suburban teenage girls for the first time,
really expanding the demographic that the industry was able to reach.
That was extraordinary at first. Then she transitioned into pop
made her into a different kind of artist. She sort
of redefined herself in the public eye, which is not

(12:47):
an easy thing to do. And beyond that, her tour,
I think her tour on record was some of the
most interesting artistic choices that I've ever seen an artist make. Notably,
she featured other really incredible artists and sort of introduced
her fandom to other artists across genres, people like Pitbull

(13:11):
and Charlie XCS, Alison Kraus, the Band, Perry Whiz Khalifa,
John Legend, Mary J. Blige. She was in so many
rays generous with how she proceeded in nine nine. Whether
you see it as being crafted in a strategic sort
of marketing standpoint or as an altruistic move, I think

(13:32):
it can be both at the same time as well. Yeah,
I mean I would almost push back on some of
those because I feel like, if you have an icon
like Mary J. Blage on your album, you're not doing
her the favor. She's doing favor right there. People like Yeah,
like Taylor wasn't like, oh I'll give you, I'll do
little favor for you Mary, Like that's true. She was
a peak popularity from tour. Also on the nineteen eighty

(13:54):
nine tour. I think it's important to call out that
she made I think Apple um. She did a takeover
of the Apple stores, so everything featured her branding right Like.
From a business perspective, she's been really good at marrying
capitalism with artistic expression. Down to her issue with Spotify,
which is that they want they needed to pay artists more.

(14:15):
She's taken up these causes that do allow her to
express herself in the way she wants to express herself,
make the product she wants to make while also making bank,
and that's hard to do. People have been trying to
do that since the dawn of time. So I feel
like in a way, you know, she has mastered that
with n specifically, but throughout her career as an artist totally.

(14:38):
And then the last big notable mentioned I have to
acknowledge in terms of her artistry before we take a
quick break, is her use of social media, especially on
the platform Tumbler, was really kind of extraordinary, and how
she interfaced with her fans from a young age, from
the beginning of her career. Yeah, I'm actually consistently impressed

(15:01):
with her use of social media even now. Even now,
you can find her leaving cute comments on fans posts
about her. People will post like, oh my god, I
love Taylor Swift and she'll comment, oh my god, Hi,
it's Taylor. And you know, I actually genuinely believe that
that's not an assistant or a social media manager. I
believe that is one percent Taylor and so I'm someone
who loves like memes and the Internet, she's shown herself

(15:22):
to be someone who's very red in on those things.
If you've ever seen that iconic Tumbler post where it's
a picture of Taylor Swift and the comment says, this
is my friend Becky who died after using marijuana, and
someone comments, no, that's Taylor Swift, and then the other
comments says, no, it's Becky. There's a picture of Taylor
Swift wearing her shirt that says no, it's Becky. So

(15:43):
I like the idea that Taylor Swift knows what the
chatter is about her on places like Tumbler and Instagram
and plays into it in a way that I think
it's really clever and funny and dare I say cool.
I never thought I would hear myself saying that I
think Taylor Swift is cool. But that is cool being
in on what the Internet is saying and knowing how
to wink wink not not at it. That is a

(16:04):
cool thing totally. I mean, I think what she gives
to teenage girls and young women in particular is validation
that they're not crazy, that they're not insane, that they
can have feelings and feel certain ways and participate in
social media or on social platforms with each other, talking
to each other in a language of popular culture that
they we all understand and we all speak. She gets

(16:25):
that and she talks back about language, and I think
that that's really valuable. Oh, I love how you put
that that she she speaks in that language. Where As
someone who grew up on and on the internet late
at night, on MySpace and message boards and all that,
having someone as a famous as Taylor Swift speaking in
that language is powerful, particularly when you're a young girl,

(16:47):
when you're when you feel like all the things that
you're doing online are like geeky or nerdy or stupid
or weird or whatever. Having someone as famous and beautiful
and influentialist Taylor Swift say that's okay, and I'm going
to speak back at you with that language is so powerful.
She brings her fans into the process in a way
that I thought was really interesting, especially she turned some

(17:09):
of her online conversations into in person invitations for listening parties.
Of course, she used that to sort of build buzz,
make her Swift ease feel very special, and in so
many ways it married true online to offline organizing to
you did not go there. I just did go there too.

(17:31):
It marries that with marketing. She I mean, she totally
commercialized her fandom, but she did it in a way
that is textbook organizing. I like it where you she
it is sort of like she made these little organize,
these little Taylor Swift organizers. Yeah. I haven't thought of
it that way, but that is something. There's something to that,
and I don't see anyone else doing that. I mean,
she in many ways, like has pioneered that fan interaction

(17:56):
in a way that whether you believe it's genuine or not,
in my opinion, does not matter because she made her
fans feel like it was genuine. She certainly makes it
seem like she's being genuine about it and she's making
bank at the same time. Like you were saying, Alisa,
it can be both. Question who do you think has
more of rabid fans, Taylor Swift or the bay Hive Beyonce? Oh,

(18:18):
I don't know. Yeah, I might say Beyonce too, because
Taylor fans are they're really really right or dive for Taylor,
but the bay Hive like will take people down like
they're there they are no joke. I just feel like
you can be Taylor Swift, and even Taylor Swift bows
down to the Queen Bear, you know what I mean
that I feel like there's just no comparison also from

(18:41):
the artist. I mean, can we just say that it's
amazing to have two artists like Taylor Swift and Beyonce's
Lemonade coming up in the same We're like in a
very special time. Yeah. I think we're in a special
time for women in pop music because I think so
long we've been told that when a woman is a
pop artist that she's just frivolous, it's about her boyfriend's
bah blah blah. But I'm happy to be in a

(19:03):
time where we are understanding and appreciating that as art.
So I don't want to make it seem like I
don't think that about Taylor Swift. I think that nine
eight nine was a piece of art, and I think
people recognize that as that, and I think that's the
way it should be. Do you think Taylor had to
galvanize her fans and organize them through specific tactics, whether
real or a marketing campaign. Do you think that she

(19:24):
had to organize those young women into segments of her
fans or like fandoms because she's a female artist, and
all that female fan labor usually goes towards younger male artists,
and it's something that we haven't maybe seen so much
of or have a model or business model for young

(19:45):
female fans supporting a young female artist. I actually think
there's something to that idea, because when you think about
organized fandom right where it's fan clubs and people writing
letters and sending emails and getting meetups and all of
that things that involve a lot of labor and in
real life work, you really do see a lot of
that for boy bands and artists who are young men,

(20:05):
and so I actually do think it's interesting that Taylor
Swift hasn't been able to generate that same level of
in real life connection and engagement with young bands being
a young woman, because you really don't see that often.
I don't know if I see it broken down in
gender as much as I see it as in terms
of the shifting nature of media. Because of social media,

(20:28):
the ability to be more in control of your fandom
has never been greater. But now there are things like
record labels and book publishers who are trying to redefine
the value that they bring to an artist like Taylor Swift.
The label wasn't going to organize her fans for her.
She being the kind of control freak that I think

(20:49):
she might be over her image, over her brand, over
her creative control, took the reins on that department just
as much as she did artistically. And so I think
that was a really wise decision on her part that
she didn't have to make, you know what I mean Again,
I think it's an example of her business savvy. I
totally agree on that, And I also think that it
takes for thought and a respect for young women and

(21:11):
the power that comes with female fandom to be able
to say, let me, let me get a hold on this,
let me modify it. Um. Not that obviously male artist
young male artists haven't done the same thing. From the Beatles,
you know, all the way to Justin Bieber, like, young
women are always ahead of the curve. They're always predicting trends. Um.
Look it's not chat for example, Um all that stuff

(21:34):
young girls predict. And I think that she harnesses that
power again, that understanding of young women, and just turned
it in her favor. Again not saying that that's a
good or bad thing. Actually think it's a great thing
because she respects that female labor and it's like, I
see you, and I'm going to make something for you.
I think that's absolutely right. In fact, it kind of

(21:54):
sounds like you're talking about the concept of a squad,
which I want to dive into. After we take a
quick break, we'll be right back after a word from
our sponsors. So we're back, and we are talking through
one of many people's most problematic fabis faive and that

(22:18):
is Taylor Swift. Why we love her, why she's a
little problematic, and hope she can be better, And we
want to tackle this idea of squad power. And I
was actually really excited to see Taylor go from writing
about boys primarily to defining herself by her girlfriends. I
thought it was pretty exciting to see the era of strong,

(22:38):
powerful women being championed. And yet there are some totally
legitimate critics about her use of squad at Lisa, what
do you think about Taylor and the era of squad.
I think the era of the squad illustrated that Taylor
could really make a career out of both putting women
down and supporting them. So she started her career, you know,

(23:01):
really again in the country music department again, even though
she came from Pennsylvania. Um was really able to ride
that wave of country music. But a lot of the
songs during that time we're kind of putting women down. Um.
I don't know if you guys sample songs that she
really went from a country music star from our song,

(23:24):
which was a popular favorite if you listen to it,
it's going to be stuff in your heads for three
days to pop star which was shake it Off, which
we all know and I'm sad to admit with my
ring tone for like three months. Um. And she really
did go from putting women down from Better Than Revenge,
where she compares um, a woman who's an actress to
her skills on a mattress. You can hear that that rhyme.

(23:48):
That's probably intentional. And so she goes from putting women
down to embracing them in the squad. So it's just
it's it's hard to watch this commodification of feminism happen
through the squad, Like you can't just put women down
and build your career up on that while also surrounding
yourselves with a bunch of women who you hope to

(24:08):
exemplify parts of your identity on like, look here's Tam
and look, I'm kind of indie, you know, here's Lena Dunham.
So I also have that kind of like writerly side
of me. I guess you can do it because she did.
But I think the backlash to the squad illustrated that
it's problematic. The squad in itself is a problematic phase

(24:29):
and to quote bridget Todd, how many people are in
this squad? Yeah? I wasn't a big fan of the squad,
as I think you know, Alisa, I just think that
squad to me seems like it's an automatically exclusive thing, right,
So if you've got a squad, my immediate first thought
is who's included and who's excluded? What are the ins
and outs of the squad. I also didn't love that

(24:50):
people gave her all this credit for coming up with
the idea of squad, when in fact, the term squad
has had roots and black and hip hop communities since forever,
Like tell us it to not invent the idea of
squads and squatting up those haven't been in hip hop
songs for a very long time, and that I didn't
love seeing how when she started saying squad and squadgles,
it became a thing, and it just seemed like another

(25:10):
way that she was able to put her sort of
shiny white girl branding on something that already existed. Yeah,
and she never gave any credit for not inventing it.
She did popularize it, but she's not. It's not like
she said, f y, I historically this is uh, you know,
long been of thing in black culture and hip hop,
and I'm squatting up now and that's exciting you should do.
There was no acknowledgment of that. I definitely think more culturally,

(25:33):
we associated the idea of squads with Taylor. Whether or
not that was something that is on us or on her,
I think it's a good question, but it was just
something that I couldn't shake it off feeling a little
bit icky about. I think you're totally spot on. It
also felt triggering for a lot of women who were
bullied by women because the click culture, Like if she
called it click, which who did that Kanye seting with

(25:55):
my click? Right? Yeah, that's Kanyie and jay Z. It
really reminded you of that sort of attie this girl
culture of high school or middle school, where a pack
of roaming best girlfriends could be vicious. Yeah, a pack
of roaming, blue eyed, leggy, beautiful, popular, powerful girls. Honestly,
sometimes I feel like the only reason I don't like

(26:16):
Taylor Swift is because she reminds me of every popular
girl from my high school who I was legitimately afraid of.
Right And at the same time, she's playing the outsider
dork card like I'm just I don't belong just like you,
and we're like, Okay, shut up, You're perfect, you know,
like just own it, you know what I mean. That's
the frustration I honestly, going back to that, I remember
finding out that Taylor Swift drove like a luxury convertible

(26:39):
when she was in high school, and that was the
first time I realized, Oh, this persona that she had
built early on in her career, where you know, she's
got the curly, frizzy hair and the glasses and I
am so nerdy. It's like, you're if you're driving a
car like that in high school, come on, like, we
all know, we all know what those social markers mean
and what they don't mean. And I just saw her
adopting social markers that were had nothing to do with

(27:00):
her actual lived experience. And I remember the first time
that those two things came in conflict. Something about finding
out that she drove a luxury convertible car in high
school just blew my mind and blew the whole thing
wide open. But she probably went to a school where
everybody did, and so she could somehow still be an
outsider dork. I mean, I'm not saying she was or wasn't,
but in my high school, that would not have made

(27:21):
you an outsider dork. Now there's one other thing we
have to talk about Taylor related that I actually thought
was a pretty awesome thing that she did, and that
was her outspoken, courageous advocacy on sexual assaults and really
standing up for victims of sexual assault, not only through
pursuing her own case, which was really a counter suit,

(27:43):
but let's let's talk about that more in a second,
but also her support of Kesha, who we know has
also been really abused by her own record label and
her own producer who she's accused of assault. Now, Taylor
Swift did not need to go through the costly time
I'm consuming and probably very triggering process of taking this

(28:04):
jerk to court, and she didn't even go out of
her way to sue this guy. She actually countersued. So,
this guy, David Mueller, is like a DJ in Denver
who during a fan meet and greet she says, assaulted her. Right.
She says that he stuck his hand up her skirt
and grabbed her ass during a fan meet and greet.
She didn't sue him, but he sued her because he

(28:28):
ended up getting fired because she made sure that his
boss knew what had gone down. He got fired, and
he was suing Taylor Swift and her manager and parent
for back pay that he lost due to losing his job.
And to me, I would be like, oh, hell no,
I'm taking this what a Exactly he said that she

(28:48):
falsely accused him of assault, which is like, how much
hutzpah does it have to take to actually assault someone
and then sue them for accusing you of assault and
having lost your job. That's like just the about the
audacity of doing that to someone like Taylor Swift. So
he was suing for two point nine eight million in damages.
She countersued for one dollar and one this past August.

(29:12):
So I actually have nothing but respect for Taylor in
this regard. I have nothing kudos to her. I can
only imagine how many young women out there who have
dealt with sexual assault, who have been told it's their fault.
What were you wearing? All of that nonsense that we
tell survivors of sexual assault and sex crimes. Taylor would
have none of it. And I can't imagine what it
must feel like to be a young survivor of sexual

(29:34):
assault and watch this. I applaud her for this. This
is this is what I'm talking about. I think that
when Taylor Swift uses her platform to take a stand,
it can reverberate through the nation, through the world. And
I think somebody out there is going to have watched
that trial and watched how she didn't back down, didn't
allow herself to be shamed, didn't allow herself to be
victim blamed, and said no, something illegal happened to me.

(29:58):
And I am going to have my this. Somebody out
there is watching that, and they're gonna go report, or
they're gonna go get their justice. They're gonna hold somebody accountable.
And I think this is what I'm talking about. She
has this platform where she can really do so much
good when it goes right. I think with Taylor Swift
it goes really, really really right. At leasta, what do

(30:18):
you think? I thought it was really well timed because
it happened, I believe in August or September, late August
early September going back to school, and that's the month
where obviously students are going back to school, and on
campus rape and sexual assault is usually the highest. So
I thought it came out a nice time for her
to have that message of saying, look, it's totally inappropriate

(30:41):
to be touched in this way. I think post Weinstein,
now it's a really interesting it's really interesting to look
back at Taylor's case post Weinstein and see how she
in a way helps set the stage for women to
start calling this gross behavior within their industry out on

(31:02):
a national stage. So I applaud that. Do I think
she was using it a little bit to set the
ground or set the stage for her new album. Yeah,
but I wouldn't put it past her as a celebrity
to want to stay relevant at any cost. Yeah. I
think you're spot on, And this is like Bridget you
were saying earlier, an example of how powerful Taylor can

(31:24):
be when she wants to be an advocate. In a
statement following the trial, Swift actually acknowledge the symbolism behind
her win, and in doing so, for the first time
that I've read, really called out her own privilege in
a way that really made me excited and think, Okay, Taylor,
You're on the right track, Like maybe we can see
more of this in the future. From her, she wrote,
I want to acknowledge the privilege that I benefit from

(31:47):
in life, in society, and in my ability to shoulder
the enormous cost of defending myself in a trial like this.
She continued, My hope is to help those whose voices
should also be heard. Therefore, I'll be making donations in
the near future to multiple organizations that help sexual assault
victims defend themselves. This is the kind of thing that's

(32:07):
going to get me. At a Taylor Swift concert, row
Rocket a red lip singing along like I love it.
Like if I could use this as a case study
for how to be an advocate, how to how to
show others how to be advocates, I would. And I
just think that what she did was so brave and
so great and so right, and it just really goes
to show the immensive power that someone like Taylor Swift

(32:30):
has and his whole lawsuit. And this great statement came
almost a year after she donated two fifty dollars to Kesha,
two days after a New York judge denied Kesha a
court injunction that would have allowed her to record new
music outside of her record label. So the courts don't
always rule in women's favor on this issue, even if
you're a famous pop star. And whether she's winning and

(32:51):
making a really profound statement like that or watching a
colleague lose and throwing some money her way as a
token of sup or an appreciation, this issue is an
example of Taylor walk in the feminist walk, and we
really need to see her do that in a more
intersectional way. Well, that's what I'm saying. I'm sure that
publicly supporting Kesha over Dr Luke probably does have negative

(33:14):
connotations for Taylor, even somebody as powerful as she is
in the industry, And I think that the fact that
she did it anyway shows sometimes being a feminist is hard,
but you do it anyway. And I just I think
that what she did is exactly what we're talking about.
When it comes to walking the walk. When we come
back from this next break, we're going to talk through
some of tho ways she's not always walking the walk,
some of the ways she can walk that walk a

(33:35):
lot better, especially when it comes to race and intersectional feminism,
and how we hope that we can expect more of
this kind of privilege, acknowledgment, and real feminism on display
from the one and only Taylor Swift. We'll be right back,

(34:00):
and we're back, and it's time. It's time to talk
through some of the biggest issues that folks rightfully have
with Taylor Swift. And let's start with this concept of
her use of the white victim. She sort of plays
this white victim card, which to me, I think the

(34:22):
narrative began around the Kanye v. M A situation when
she received the award over and above Queen b who
we've already described and sort of as the queen of pop.
So Taylor gets on stage to accept her award, Kanye
West sort of jumps right up there, takes the mic
silence as her makes her look like the white victim.

(34:44):
And I think she's been playing that angle ever since.
What do you think? Yeah, I think I agree with
the idea of the white victim. I think that was
one of the first examples where she exposed herself as
one the most dangerous types of white women. There's a
great quote by a cultural critic, Damon Young, and he

(35:05):
said that this is a Taylor's um next altercation with Kanye,
regarding the recordings that he made, um saying that he
made that famous meaning Taylor. And what Damon says is
what Taylor did was use the inherent empathy and benefit
of the doubt. Her white womanhood allowed her to possess

(35:26):
to throw a black person under the bus if necessary
and convenient. And I feel like this this first instance
with Kanye on the v m A stage was the
first look that we got of how she uses her
victimhood as a way to get things from popular culture,

(35:48):
and that kind of like helped her brand move forward.
She's a victim, she's the outsider, and you can't really
exploit the same system you claim to be a victim of.
And that's kind of my issue with this first altercation
in with Kanye. Yeah, I mean, I I honestly could
not agree more. And I think what you said about
the idea of the benefit of the doubt. That's what

(36:08):
I think for me. Is one of the things I
find so frustrating about Taylor Swift is that, first of all,
it's kind of one of those don't hate the player,
hate the game situations where I think Taylor Swift sees
the world that we live in. She sees that Kanye West,
as a black man up against her as a white woman,
that he is going to automatically have people no matter

(36:30):
what he does. So I think that what he did
that dam As was awful, but that people are going
to automatically be skeptical of him. And so when you
look at what happened between, you know, her being like, oh,
he had this line in a song and never talk
to me about it, and him being like, I got
permission from her to use this line automatically. I think
that she knows, well, people are gonna believe me over
him because I'm a white woman, and I think that

(36:51):
she plays into that in a way that I find
very very uncomfortable, playing up her own victimhood over and
over again. I think it's something that she's really benefited from.
But I mean that Kanye West to VM a speech
that happened so long ago and she's still like years
and years and years later. She referenced it in her
her next her next time at the Vienna's she gave

(37:11):
that speech, so it was partly about it. Like, I
get it that it was a traumatic, big thing that
happened to her, but I don't like the idea of
building a brand on this one thing. And once again
SNL sort of mirrored this when they satirized her being
constantly in a state of shock and awe and oh
my goodness, I won again. She sort of plays this

(37:33):
geeky outsider like you've mentioned earlier, Alisa, but she's anything
but right. She sort of plays the underdog because everybody
loves an underdog, even though we know she's not. And
I'll admit Kanye did victimize her when he interrupted her.
That was rude, right, I think Obama. President Obama called
him a jackass when describing Kanye's behavior. But you're right,

(37:55):
She's constantly played into that because it's worked for her.
And what was the most troubling instance in which she
played that card, in my opinion, is this Twitter fight
with Nicki Minaj. So Nikki, the nominations come out again
for the Best Music Video of v M a years later,
and Nikki says, you know, she wasn't nominated. Only women

(38:18):
with thin bodies get nominated for these kinds of awards. Now,
if you look at the lineup of all the other nominees,
it was Beyonce, Taylor Swift, and a couple of guys,
like a bunch of guys. And so Taylor interpreted that
as a slight against her because everything is about her. Well, actually,
if you think of the I think it was a

(38:39):
rational conclusion. But she missed the point. She thought she
was being called out because she mentioned slim white women's bodies.
The only slim white woman in that category was her, Taylor.
She didn't actually say white, she didn't know, but she
did say, so it's I think that's a fair and
I think that's a fair reading between the lines. But
here's my thing, Yeah, Nicki Mina about her. Jaki Manaj

(39:00):
wasn't calling out Taylor Swift. Nicki Minaj was calling out
white supremacy, and Taylor Swift in her mind thinks this
is about me and it's not about her, And I
think that's what for me, that's what it comes down to.
Not everything is about you winning and women's supporting women
and all that. Nicki Minaj had a right to rightfully
call out the ways that white supremacy play out in

(39:21):
our entertainment industry. If you have eyes, you see it.
It's not it's not a surprise, not a secret. The
fact that Taylor Swift cannot see that for what it is,
I think is a real problem and really highlights the
fact that Taylor Swift is not maybe read in on
these issues. Now. Of course, I mean, it would be
great if Taylor Swift was just like a woke fighter
for social change, so like, you know, it'll be great,
but no, one, she doesn't have to be like she's

(39:42):
doing her thing fine, But to try to wade into
it when a black woman is talking about a white
supremacy plays out on her industry and making it about her,
that is textbook like victimized the white woman well and
beyond that, she used feminism as a weapon in her response.
She said, it's unlike you, Nicki to tear other women down.
So she tried to play this holier than thou I'm

(40:04):
a better feminist than you are card when it was
clearly not about her. But she totally missed the mark
on it, and in critiquing Nikki getting in a fight
with Nikki, I think a lot of observers were like,
oh my god, some of my favorite badass women artists
are fighting. God, please get it over it. And to

(40:24):
be fair, not to defend that move, because that was
so ignorant of Taylor, but she did come around saying
and I quote, I thought I was being called out,
I missed the point, I misunderstood, then misspoke. I am sorry, Nikki,
and like nobody's perfect, nobody's born woke, right. I think
that was a tough moment, but I'm I'm relatively pleased

(40:46):
with how she came around. What do you think? Yeah,
I agree, And you've mentioned this one, but that instance
of Taylor being the victim of Nikki's what she interpreted
as shade is so similar to the examples of black
women speaking out and white women being offended because they're

(41:06):
saying an opinion that has very little to do with them.
It's about some larger issue, but white women being offended
by it and not as something that has followed feminism
and the historical struggle for representation and rights and access
and just like trying to be a person in the world,
that is something that has like followed that struggle to
just be a human, and Taylor just didn't get it.

(41:29):
She didn't see it, and it was just such an
odd copy paste of history where it was just repeating
itself in social media. Now, Taylor comes from privilege, which
we have unpacked already. So you know, is it shocking
and surprising that a white, skinny, blonde woman who comes
from a very very wealthy family isn't read up on

(41:51):
women in gender and race studies? One oh one. No,
she didn't go to college. This is not like the
person who are we are going to learn a out
social movements from. However, one would think that that access
the privilege would also buy you. I don't know some
cultural understanding of like how things work amongst women, And

(42:12):
I don't think that feminism is useful if it's only
for white, privileged, blonde, skinny women, Like it's not just
about being nice to people all the time, it's calling
stuff like this out. And I think that that was
a missed opportunity for Taylor to be an ally to
Nikki and not just feel like you're hurting me. That's
mean girl. Then you could not I mean, I could

(42:36):
not have put it better myself. I do. I think
as one as a black woman who hosts a podcasts
about feminism that has a lot of white women listeners,
I totally see this play out all the time, every day,
all day, every day, where if you call something out,
or you you talk about a frustration that you have,
oftentimes it can feel like white women don't want to
hear it, or it's like it hurts their feelings or

(42:57):
defend them, and it feels that you can't actually speak
your truth because you don't want to a fend Taylor
Swift or whatever. And again, I mean, when I saw
that interaction happened on Twitter, I thought Taylor Swift might
genuinely think that feminism is being nice to Taylor Swift,
and if something includes being mean to Taylor Swift, it's
not feminist. And I that that interaction made me think

(43:17):
that feminism is just supporting and uplifting Taylor Swift and
if feminism doesn't look like that, then it's not feminism.
And I think that's what she was accusing Nikki. Oh yeah,
And I think Nikki put it perfectly by saying, this
is something you should speak out about. She responded to
Taylor saying like, I wasn't talking about you. I don't
know where you got that from, but this is a
problem that's bigger than you, and it's something you should

(43:39):
speak out about. Did she know she apologized, she came around.
She's had her own awokening, it seems a few days
later on Twitter. But has she taken up that mantle now?
Has she fought for diversity in music now? Has she
made race a part of her things that she fights for? No,
she hasn't. And I would like to see that change totally.

(44:01):
And I think that's a really important part of this
conversation because I don't think feminism is that big as
a movement at this point where we can be revoking
people's feminist cards. We can't exactly start turning people away.
So like, we're very happy to have Taylor Swift in
in our ranks and in our army. However, like calling

(44:21):
each other out is part of what being a feminist is.
And so if she's going to get on her stage
and on her platform and call herself a feminist and
use it as a marketing tool, she's relying on our
social movement that women have fought for representation and access
to write, money, personhood. If you're going to use that
to sell stuff back to people, you better be aware

(44:44):
of the foundation on which you're building your house, because
you're building it on the backs of men and women
who have fought hard for that stuff. And you better
understand the language that you're speaking in, just like she
understood the language she speaks to young girls and when
she started her career. Yeah, I mean that's exactly what
I think that my biggest issue is with her. Nobody

(45:04):
is forcing her to use feminism as this marketing tool.
No one is saying you have to be a feminist,
you have to talk about feminism and squad and this
and that. She's made a choice that that is something
that she's going to be about. You can't just take
that up. It's not just a costume. If you're gonna
talk the talking about a walk the walk. Sometimes being
a feminist isn't fun. Now. Sometimes being a feminist means
being called a feminist kill joy or a social justice

(45:26):
warrior or taking up causes. It's not very fun or lukeuid.
It's take up. Sometimes it's hard work, sometimes it's hell.
But you know you're calling yourself a feminist you better
be ready to walk that walk, and I don't think
you're doing that. And if you really think about her
embrace the feminism is relatively new. Back in twelve, she
said she wasn't a feminist because quote, I don't really
think about things as guys versus girls. Luckily, it seems

(45:49):
that squad member Lena Dunham took her under her wing
and UH had a little chat with her. Hopefully Nikki
took her under her wing and said, let's talk about
intersectional feminism. A few years her, but she evolved, like
so many women do, to realize that, as she put it, quote,
I didn't quite understand that saying you're a feminist is

(46:09):
just saying that you hope women and men will have
equal rights and equal opportunities. So she come around and
come out as a feminist. Yes, but you know, as
Jill Philipovic wrote for The Washington Post, feminism is more
than just supporting your girl friends and churning out charming
catchphrases about girl power. I actually liked seeing the evolution
of her going from I'm not a feminist to embracing it.

(46:31):
I actually like seeing how that can happen in real
time and following celebrities as they grapple with these issues,
because you know, my me, coming to commons with the
feminist was a journey. I'm sure it was a journey
for all of us. And I actually applaud her for not, like,
you know, dying on the hill of anti feminism, for saying, actually,
it turns out that feminism is a cool thing, and
I am a feminist after all, and sewing that like

(46:53):
you can make that transition, and really, you know what's
not very feminist of her, Bridget was this past elections
call when we were kind of counting on feminists, We
were kind of counting on white women in particular to
uh come out and vote, and to come out and
vote for the candidate who was going to make life
a little easier on all women, the candidate who did

(47:13):
not brag about sexually assaulting women. Yeah, that one one
where the hell was Taylor Swift? And sixteen? If I
told you the amount of time I have spent thinking, writing, researching,
and talking about who Taylor Swift voted for, it would
blow your mind. You would be like, there's like strings
and paper on my apartment wall where I've got charts,
and I'm like crossing this to this on this day.

(47:34):
She said this, like, I'm down a rabbit hole of
trying to figure this out. And here's the thing. When
all these other members of her squad, Lina Dunham, Oh,
Katie Perry is not exactly a member of her squad,
she was stumping like crazy for Hillary. Yeah, when you
have all these other prominent young women not just saying
go out and vote, but being an advocate for voting

(47:55):
for somebody that you really really believe in, I was like,
where was Taylor. It would have taken something subtle, right, Like,
I know that she has this country fan base. Maybe
she doesn't want to alienate them. I totally totally get it.
And I'm not saying that you have to that. I
expect the people to go out and be Rara, you know,
stumping for Hillary Clinton or whatever. But I do think

(48:15):
that it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world
to say, you know what, I'm met down with people
who rag about sexual assault. You know who did that,
Donald Trump. I was running for president Donald Trump. Yeah.
It was just noticeably mute, right. It was a noticeable
anomaly in terms of her brand of being ra Ra feminism,
ra Ra squad, but not at all touching politics. And

(48:40):
it seems like it's one thing to abstain from going political,
even in our climate where all celebrity work is basically
becoming political, and it feels like our idols and politics
have merged in a way recently that's very new. But
it's another thing to be the poster child of the
Aryan supporters, like the Arian raised, like the neo Nazi movement,

(49:03):
and to say nothing, Well, that might sound like a
huge exaggeration, but if you google Taylor Swift and Nazis,
that's actually exactly what's going on. So if you don't know,
this kind of a weird thing on the Internet is
that Taylor Swift has for whatever reason been embraced as
this Aryan goddess by literal Nazis and white supremacists. And
this is something that is taken over the Internet. There

(49:24):
are so much subculture is dedicated to it. And actually
The Daily Bees published an article earlier this year with
the headline it's time for Taylor Swift to denounce her
neo Nazi admirers. So, according to Andre Anglin, who is
the writer of the white supremacist blog The Daily Stormer,
he says first, Taylor Swift is a pure Aryan goddess,
like something out of a classical Greek poem Athena Reborn.

(49:46):
That's the most important thing. It is also an established
fact that Taylor Swift is secretly a Nazi, and its
simply waiting for the right time. When Donald Trump makes
it safe for her to come out and announce her
area in agenda to the world, probably she will be
be truth to Trump's son and they will be ground
American royalty. So if this is out on a leading
white nationalist website and you're and you don't say anything,

(50:07):
I think it's a problem. Maybe she's thinking, I don't
even want to give attention to it, but it's out there. Yeah.
I mean, there's gotta be a lot of crazy stuff that'
said about you when you're that famous, and picking and
choosing what to respond to is not easy. But given
the climate, given what's happening, given the violence, giving Charlottesville,
given this election, to stay mute, I mean, how do

(50:28):
you do that when you're as influential as she is.
Choosing to sit out an election like two sixteen is
one thing, but choosing to sit out an opportunity to
proclaim your values and take action on your values. I
mean it's like she's taking polls, you know what I mean.
She seems like the most hyper calculated candidate out there,
like she will pull before she decides what to speak

(50:51):
out against. Definitely, And I don't think that speaking out
against Nazis should be a controversial thing, and yet I
think it might be. Right now. I think most of
what's problematic about Taylor all boils down to racial issues,
really and truly, if you look at the cultural appropriation
conversation around her use of these sort of nameplate earrings
and twerking in Shake It Off the music video, some

(51:13):
people said, well, it's not the same as really co
opting black culture because she was sort of parrotying it.
Not sure if that argument really stands, but I kind
of get it right. She wasn't trying to say, look
at me, I'm I'm I'm Miley Cyrus. I'm actually using
black culture to be cool. She was saying, like, look
at me trying on all these different genres. Haha, aren't
I a dork? You know, different but still not cool?

(51:36):
A little cringe e. It's cringe E. And I think
for me, why it's cringe. E is that it really
highlights something that I race not withstand. They have a
problem with her is that she often makes a show
of how like adorably bad she is at things like, Oh,
I'm in front of all these black professional dancers who
are doing a great job of dancing, and I don't
know what I'm doing. Isn't that funny? And it's like,

(51:56):
maybe it is a racialized thing because I don't think
that people of color get the same leeway to bask
in their own expressions of mediocrity, and Taylor Swift does
that sometimes and it drives me nuts. Yes, yes, basking
in their expressions of mediocrity. I love that because her
whole thing is you know, adorable, right, Yeah, yeah, I

(52:21):
totally get it. The most problematic, the most problematic expression
of cultural appropriation one on one is Google Wildest Dreams.
That video I think went nowhere in part because people
were so horrified that, oh my gosh, is she romanticizing
African colonialism? Yes, folks, Yes, indeed she's on the African

(52:43):
planes okay, sort of allah colonial occupation days. And it
looks like a magical love story and it's just like,
are you kidding me. I mean I almost this was
so bad. I almost felt bad for her because I'm thinking,
where where was that? Like someone in her team left up?

(53:04):
But this got out there right like this was a
breach of some sort of system. She should have someone
in her team who's like pulled her aside, and it's like, girl,
is some mistake. I almost at like something there was
no quality control, there was a failure of something in
her team, and I feel bad that she got got
duped by it or something. It's not good. And then
even the most recent video are You Ready For It um,

(53:28):
which we've sort of abstained from talking about our feelings
about her latest musical release, mainly because we don't have
very nice things to say, and I'm ready for the
whole album. I'm like looking forward to maybe maybe it'll
get better. But music aside, the video Are You Ready
For It has graffiti, layden, urban sort of scenes that
are very little Tokyo esque. There's actual characters on the walls,

(53:51):
and it just feels a little bit like she's maybe
headed in a Miley Cyrus Bangers direction because she's basically
rapping in a video Taylor Stuft wrapping I don't wanna.
It's not good. It's not good. It's just like, why
do you have to do the race thing? Why do
you have to cross those lines to be cool? You
don't have to white women alert, You do not need

(54:12):
to pretend to be black in order to come across
as cool. Yeah, and she's so as we said earlier,
she's so talented in other ways, Like she didn't need
to pretend to work or pretend to wrap to make
a good song. In fact, I would say doing that
as a gimmicky and in your song won't be good.
I think that she should focus on her real talent
and not trying to be something she's not for a

(54:33):
weird gimmick or joke, maybe as retaliation. Maybe sometimes playing
to your critics instead of playing to your fans will
take you in a bad direction. Just a thought, just
an artistic musing. But here's the thing. Is she on
the same level as Miley Cyrus in terms of white
girl fail? Oh no? In my book, No, yeah, I
haven't adopted a culture and then denounced that same culture.

(54:55):
You know, And honestly, I can forgive a few slip
ups here and there. If you're someone who is she
genuinely seems like you're interested in being thoughtful and curious
and willing to learn and learn and grow. And so
I think I see that in Taylor Swift in a
way that maybe I don't see in Miley Cyrus. I
agree completely, and so I want to wrap this up
by saying, this is a tough episode to pass through.

(55:17):
This is a tough conversation. We're so glad to have you,
Alisa joining us for this one, because it's not easy
to really break down an artist like Taylor Swift, who
is so impressive, so influential, so talented and fraught. And
it is okay, listeners, just as a reminder, is actually
okay to have problematic faiths. It is okay to love

(55:39):
their work and hold them to a high moral standard.
And like you said, bridget to see and hope that
they learn and grow so we can all learn and
grow together. Yeah. I don't want to make it sound
like I hate Taylor Swift. I'm just not her biggest fan.
And I think the reason why I'm not her biggest
fan is because I see her using feminism in ways
that honestly remind me of myself many many years ago.

(56:02):
And I want her to be better. I wanted to
be a role model for all the other young women
out there, like myself who were still finding their feminist footing,
and I want her to model how we can all
be more inclusive feminist. And I think she has this
amazing platform. She's this amazing talented person who has harnessed
the energy of young women and validated them in ways
that frankly, they don't really get validated a lot. And

(56:24):
I think that she could just tweak some things and
refine that and really get there. And that's what I
want to see for her. Yeah, I mean, I just
want to reiterate that I think being a fan of
Taylor Swift and being a critic of Tiller Swift it's
part and parcel of the same fandom. So if I
came off maybe as a little bit critical of Taylor,
really it comes from a place that I want to
see her embrace and use the platform in the stage

(56:47):
that she has created for herself for a broader and
a more intersectional purpose. I think that everyone would benefit um.
But I also think that we're at this cultural moment
where we just can't trust white of them, can't trust
white women to come out and vote for and support
other women. We can't trust white women on juries, and

(57:07):
we can't trust white women to lead a lot of companies.
Um and that's because white women have repeatedly ignored conversations
of race and class and gender and sexuality, all the
stuff that you guys so awesomely talk about and dig
into on the podcast. And we're at this historical moment
where those conversations feel most vital and most important to
our national conversation. And I think Taylor is at a

(57:30):
great moment in her career and in her platform to
help us have those really hard conversations. And by the way,
that's the role of a pop star. A pop star
or a celebrity really helps us negotiate our identity in
troubled times. If you look back at all the celebrities
who have been able to withstand cultural changes, the ones

(57:53):
who are able to join that conversation are the ones
that stay relevant. So I hope that Taylor Swift can
be able to help us. And we're the ones who
put the pop in popular culture. We're the ones who
make popular culture. We as fans look to celebrities like
Taylor to make sense of the world. Ourselves and our identities,
and I just want to see Taylor help us reconcile

(58:15):
those contradictions of our culture and this weird, bizarre time
that we live in, because that's how she stays relevant,
and I want to see her stay relevant. Elsa. It
is such a pleasure to have you on today. Thank
you so much for helping us wade through the waters
of Taylor Swift, our problematic Save Alisa. Where can folks
find out more about what you're up to? Yeah, so

(58:35):
I'm on Instagram at pop culture Pirates. On Twitter, I'm
at pop Cult Pirates because pop Culture Pirate was too long,
and you can hit me up on Facebook at Elisa
Chrissinger my full name. Um And if you are interested
in hearing Bridget and I deep dive more on this
topic Taylor Swift and Problematic Shave, you can listen to

(58:56):
strong Opinions Loosely Held, where we also go into a
bunch of pop your topics from a feminist perspective, um
like hy HGTV explains America and a bunch of other
fun pop culture conversations. So I hope to see some
many of you guys over there. Absolutely so we want
to hear from you, Sminty listeners, What are your feelings
on Taylor Swift? Do you find some of what she

(59:17):
says problematic? Do you hope for a more woke Taylor Swift? Perhaps?
Do we hope for Taylor Swift that comes around, finds
her feminist footing and especially is better when it comes
to race and intersectional feminism. We want to hear from you,
and I hope we're not alone in this because this
is a tough one and it's here for you. So

(59:39):
I finally stopped dragging my feet and we went and
did it. So send us a tweet at mom Stuff podcast,
find us on Instagram at stuff Mom Never Told You,
or send us an email if you've got to unpack
even a lengthier thought at mom Stuff at how stuff
works dot com. Tho