July 8, 2020 • 44 mins
What is queerbaiting and why is it so contentious? Anney and Samantha discuss the highly debated term, some of the most prominent examples, the potential perils of shipping and fandom.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and don't welcome to stuff.
I never told your protection if I heart radio. So
I have a very important question for you, Samantha. Oh no, yes,
the most important question. Hey, here we go. Are you
(00:27):
a shipper? Okay, so I don't. I didn't know what
that was for the longest time, and I took that
very literally and I was like, like ships like I
like ships? I neither ship. I don't mean, don't you
like ships? I know because I get very very like
motion sick. So the idea of being on a ship
(00:48):
is terrifying to me. And just because you know, all
I think of is diseases like cruises, cruise ships and diseases,
so and murders in the middle of nowhere. So yeah, no,
but that that I know what it actually is, which
is meaning putting people together in relationships. Right, Okay. I
had to ask again because I'm like, I'm not one
of those cool kids. What does this mean? So no,
(01:13):
very long answer no, because I had no idea what
that was. Now do I like couples that are given
to me? Like I know that? Yes, so don't make
sense and fill force? But you know, but so are
you like watching a show and there's two characters and
you just want them to get together, or do you
(01:36):
sort of just sort of go with it. I think
typically I go with it now to be fair s vu.
For the longest time, I did want Olivia and Stabler.
Elliott and Olivia they should have gotten together, but they
really shouldn't know because you can't work like that, and
they know. But to me, Olivia was just so alone
(01:57):
and her closest connection was him, so it only made
sense to me. Mm hmm. Did you know anyone else
that shared that viewpoint? Oh? So many people, which is why,
even though you know it is a cop show, people
are still excited that Elliott Stabler is coming back, he's
having a he's getting his own show, and people cross,
(02:19):
probably because it's definitely another law You know, Law in
Order has like fifteen shows and this is one more
of those. But yeah, it's gonna be a cover crossover.
And anytime they do like cross social media people freak out.
I am one of those people, It's true. One more
follow up question, does this couple have a name, like
(02:40):
a ship name? See? That never happened in my generation.
I don't think really, that wasn't a thing. Who was
the most famous couple that has I don't know. I
always think of Brand Jelina. Oh yeah, yeah, there you go,
Brand Angelina, so that is in my time frame. But
I think that was just so dumb because I also
was not team but Angelina. Okay, I was too, So
(03:06):
that helps like that just has a negative connotation to me.
Mm hmmmm. So obviously, since you're asking me these questions,
you and I know that because of your fan fiction,
you ship. You shipp pretty hard, don't you. I it's
so funny to me, um, because, as I've said before,
(03:27):
I am not a romantic person. Like I don't watch
rom coms. It's not my thing. It's almost always my
least favorite part of any entertainment because I'm just not
into it. Um. But recently, I don't know why I
have started shipping things, and I think I shipp things
(03:50):
that I can tell it's never gonna happen. I don't know,
because it feels almost like a safer thing. Are more
fun to imagine? Is it more like a conspiracy theory
type of Yeah, they're actually together, even though they're not
going to say it out loud, but if you watch
their actions, they're together. Well, I've had an in depth
(04:17):
discussion recently with a lot of people about UM, particularly
Star Wars, and sure, yeah, Luke and and Han and
that I've started shipping that, and I have no idea why,
UM and I. So today we're we're talking about queer baiting.
And when I think about the difference to me and
(04:39):
what queer baiting is and isn't, because there is a
huge debate over it is intention and I I don't
feel like the writers ever meant for anybody to interpret that.
Han and Luke we're gonna be together, you know what
I mean. So it doesn't feel like a conspiracy so
much is But he he rushed off into the blizzard
(05:02):
on half to save him and body heat. It's true.
It's true. It's true. It's true. We saw it. I've
seen it several times now, so many now. Yes, Yes,
you're the best, thank you. Yes. So we're talking about
the contentious term of queer bating, which is something that
(05:23):
has been on my mind for a while. UM and
I have found myself falling into these relationships that get
brought up in this conversation a lot. Dean and Cassile
from Supernatural DESTI l is probably the one of the biggest,
if not the biggest example given. Um oh yes, now,
(05:46):
don't get me wrong. Before I even started watching it
and now I have, it's one of my regulars now,
my rotation. Um, you did tell me those you this
was the first thing you told me. And and then
when I was introduced Castile on the show, I was like, oh,
there he is, and You're like just wait, just wait.
And then they even have an episode where they dedicate
(06:07):
to the fact that that is a theory. Yeah, the
fan fiction episode, right, yes, yes, um yeah, They're probably
the biggest example. And it's one of those things where
again I'm kind of oblivious almost when it comes to
romantic singles that Samantha, you know this, I just miss
(06:29):
a lot of context, a lot. But the fact that
I picked up on Dusty l without the Internet, I
think that is that says something. I was like, these
two characters, something's going on here. This is a little
I can see them getting together. Dean even says he
loves him anyway. The signs are there, Samantha, The signs
(06:52):
are there apparently, yes, yes, um, And then I I
got really caught up in Finn and Poe for a
hot man it from Star Wars, which is called Storm Pilot.
That's the shipping name for that, and I really wanted
them to end up together. Um, and I could go
on such a deep dive and I kind of did
(07:13):
in our two part fan fiction episodes on why this
whole thing is where? Why are we so eager or
at least some segment of us to put two male
characters together. Um. I don't know if you know this, Samantha,
because you not in the fan fiction world like I am,
but slash it just makes up a huge, huge portion
(07:38):
of fan fiction and it's mostly written by women, and
it's two men together. What's slash? Oh? Is that what
it's called? Yeah? Okay, because you you indicate with the slash,
so it would be deem slash castil oh. So yeah,
that's not how I okay. I'm glad you told me that,
because I would have interpreted as a different thing, like
they're the same person, one in the same but not
necessarily relationship or is or mm hmm okay. Yeah. Well
(08:05):
I'm happy to share my fan fiction knowledge at any point. So, um,
I actually I feel like I could do a ten
part series on this, and I want to talk about
it so much, but if I do it in a
kind of a nutshell, I think one of the main
reasons is there are more male characters. They're traditionally more
(08:26):
well developed, the male body is less politicized in the
female body in a plethora of ways. Uh. And then
the lack of platonic relationships, but particularly between men and
women in our media, but also men and men, um,
and so any type of closeness. I feel like we
automatically interpret it as romantic because it usually is. But um,
(08:52):
the truth remains that some companies and creators tease a
queer relationship and never actually give it. And it's become
a hot topic of debate. And uh, I've I've seen
it in uh so so many things. And and oh, anyway,
(09:17):
another piece of this, I I know I'm seeing things,
like I said, where writers didn't intend it, like in
Han and Luca is the best example, because I just
feel like there's no way they thought all these women
was latch onto that right. Um. And I know I
brought up before, UM how my gay male gay friends
(09:40):
have said that this makes them uncomfortable that they feel
like they can't have platonic relationships with a man without
it being misinterpreted by somebody. And I I would love
to to hear from gay listeners with your thoughts and
experiences about this. Um. I know, for me personally, when
I hadn't really come out as VIBE, but I had
(10:01):
been with men and women, there was sort of this
assumed sluttiness that I must be attracted to everyone, right,
and um it was really problematic and it made me
very uncomfortable. And and I had more than one dude
he would come up to me and say, well, you
kissed her, so you must be down to kiss me. What. Um?
(10:24):
So yes, please listeners right in your thoughts about that,
your experiences with that. But okay, let's start with a definition. Essentially,
queer baiting is what it sounds like. It's when creators
and corporations lure lgbt Q plus audiences with the promise
of a queer relationship and then that queer relationship never happens.
(10:46):
Queer baiting is usually between two male characters. Again, that
could be because most of our developed characters are male,
but not always. Queer baiting is a way for our
entertainment to appeal to the masses while also safely bringing
in l g B t Q plus characters, so sort
of like a like kind of backhanded way of trying
(11:08):
to have your cake and eat it too, to not
offend anybody. UM. Some see queer bating as a lack
of representation leading to misinterpretation. Some see it as a
calculated strategy, like these storylines are never going to pay off,
They never intended for them to pay off. They see
it as a way for companies to use queer people
(11:30):
as almost pawns and profitability. It's a big tease the
creators put in this subtext that is never going to
amount to anything. UM Glad's report found that about six
point four percent of television's main characters or l g
B t Q plus, So that's not that many, and
(11:55):
just I would I would ask take a moment to
absorb how not only disappointing but painful that is it's
toying with the community that doesn't frequently see themselves represented,
and then almost ridiculing people in that community for thinking
that that relationship could ever have been queer, that you
could ever have interpreted it that way. It's almost gas lighting,
(12:16):
like how how did you see this? Your silly fan,
you're reading too much into it um. Some of these
relationships are openly made fun of by creators, and the
overall messages representation of these relationships is worth less than
the risk of offending any homophobic audience member, right, And
I would add that it seems like it fetishizes that
(12:38):
in general, the LGBTQ population in general, which is harmful
in every way. Let's just go in. But fetishizing anything
is harmful. But it does through that, and that's you're
they're using it as a way to make profit, which
is gross. Yes, yes it is, but a very brief history.
In the ninety nineties, companies started going after what was
(12:58):
called the pink the dollar, or gay patronage. Some experts
argue the merit of this idea. Either way, cur bating
stem from the corporate desire to market to l g
bt Q plus audiences while not once again deterring any
homophobic viewers having their cake like you said, and eating
it too. So I gotta have it all, want all
the audience, so God have to say in that fun line.
(13:22):
So queer bating has a long history, but it's in
it's more modern sense. It goes back to quote gay
window advertising in the nineteen eighties, or using subtle elements
to draw in the l g B, d Q plus crowd.
Some scholars also called this gay vague. There's also hoh
yea or homooticism yea, which was first coined in two
(13:44):
thousand one, which is more closely related to queer coating
or reading. More on that in a second, But in
the early nineteen eighties it was used in the U. S.
Courts to describe homophobic rhetoric. It's current meaning most likely
originates on tumbler as early as the nineties. So another
part of this is called situational homosexuality. Essentially, the absence
(14:05):
of the characters of one gender means that people read
a certain amount of same sex eroticism. However, many modern
day researchers think the term is archaic, that it could
apply to things like prisons, a temporary state, sort of
like quote I experimented in college, right as if it's
only it's just based on the city. It was just
(14:25):
a stage. It was just a stage in my life. Yeah. Yeah,
So there are a lot, a lot of aspects to
unpack in all of that, and we will, but first
we're gonna pause for a quick break for word from
our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you sponsor. So let's
(14:56):
let's return again to Supernatural, which I do think it's
probably the biggest example modern current example of this if
we look at it specifically. Some have argued that when
creators leaned into Destio, which is again these the team
of main characters Dean and Castile, their ratings went up
and the nature of that show, and that it is
very self aware and very meta. There's like fan fiction
(15:19):
about It's kind of confusing to explain, but I love
seeing people's faces when I try to explain this. Basically,
they're they're sort of semi famous in this world, in
this fake world, and people write fan fiction about them.
But it's a cult, and it seems like it's mainly
like young Yes Oh, who she is the biggest fan
(15:44):
of of Supernatural within the world which is like a
series of books. Um she is like the most stereotypical
fan fiction girl that they could have written. They did,
um so because it is that way, because it is
(16:04):
very self aware and very meta, there's a lot of
room for creators to address these things, to directly address
They're the fan culture, the fandom around Supernatural. Well, at
the same time, sometimes mocking and dismissing them. The actors
also play with at conventions and in bloopers, this Dean
and Castile relationship, so they know about it and they
(16:29):
leaned into it, but there's still kind of a mockery
of it. I think it make fun of themselves in general.
But yeah, they definitely, and especially the earlier episodes, the
kind of homophobic yeah lines and and taglines. It's kind
of it's sad. Yeah, yeah, and I I will fight anyone.
I think Dean it is bisexual. I don't care what
(16:51):
the creators say, but that's my opinion. I like that
you get the one that is the most like as
as he put sit in the show, because I just
rewatched this episode where they are where the brothers are
actually confused in being in the relationship and they're like,
why do they think we're gay? Dean's like why do
we why do they think we're gay? And uh, Sam,
(17:13):
I can't believe I'm telling this. Sam's responses, Maybe you'r
but you're overcompensating. Is that why you think that? Now?
It's it's odd because if you if a show goes
on long enough, it's just this show is like fifteen
years old. There's gonna be inconsistencies with the character because
he is presented is like this alpha male always with
(17:36):
the ladies, um womanizer. Womanizer definitely uh and you know
he like listens to hard rock and he's a classic
rock and he's gotta classic classic rock. I don't know.
I can't really put my finger on why I think
it and get too hard into Supernatural and everybody's like,
(17:56):
what the hell are y'all doing? This is not sman.
Would you say Crowley and Dean were also a ship? Oh? Absolutely, yes,
and it probably pretty much talks about being I think
he's bisexual. He kind of lens into that anywhere there
was a whole like triangle castile Crowley Dean. Yes, all right, okay,
(18:19):
we've talked about Supernatural lot. Here's the probably the other
biggest example UM is the BBC show Sherlock. I don't
think you could read one article about queer bading and
not come across this um. And it is shipping of
the two main characters, John Watson and Sherlock Holmes, which
is called John Walk which, by the way, again this
(18:43):
is where I'm like, what, what's happening? What I don't
understand what's happening because I loved that show. I love
that show. That was one of the ones that I
was always into. And like, I know, the conversation came
up that Sherlock maybe gay or bisexual because he's never
been with women, or been with anyone quote unquote it's
(19:04):
specifically women. But I've never like, I know, there's that
underlying joke because they're always together, so everybody assumes they're together, which,
by the way, once again is kind of like, why
can't they just be friends in the story. But yeah,
and I didn't. I never saw that. It's one of
those things where once you look at and and Samantha,
(19:26):
believe me, you can find, you know, gifts, just pages
of gifts, like see the proof. Um, once you see it,
it's hard to unsee. They definitely stand really like way
too close to each other a lot like face to face.
And I know, I don't really remember it, it's been
so long since I watched it, but I know there
(19:46):
was like Moriarty is sometimes criticized as being painted his
like the evil gay trope, kind of like a disturbed individual. Um,
And I know there was something along with that that
people often point to and and yeah, as you're saying,
I do see the point that because of the lack
(20:10):
of representation, Um, I don't. I mean this is also
you could argue very true about our our society in
the real world, where where men aren't allowed to have
these emotional, deeply patonic relationships without them being read as romance. Um,
the SAME's true for female characters. Again, I think I
(20:33):
know I mentioned in a past episode if if if
Luke had in fact been a woman, I'm telling you
you would have been like it would have been meant
to be interpreted that way. Um, people would read their
relationship between John and Sherlock be as romantic if one
of them was me on the other female, or at
least a lot more people would. Again, it boils down
(20:53):
to we don't have a lot of representation, and we
don't have a lot of diversity of stories being told
and relationships and complex nuanced relationships. And I think that's changing.
But right now we're we're just so desperate for these stories,
so we're finding them where we can, are writing them.
And I will come back to the importance of fan
(21:15):
fiction and all this in a minute. Um. And John
Lack is a great example where there are all these
in show jokes that they are a coupled that show
acknowledging what fans want to using it, but then nothing happens. Um.
There are even references to Shorelock moriarity fan fiction that
are derided in the show. The creator Stephen Moffatt went
(21:35):
out of his way to say an interview in terms
of whether or not Shrlock was a sexual is the
choice of a monk, not the choice of an a sexual.
If he was a sexual, there would be no tension
in that, no fun in that. It's someone who abstains
who's interesting. Um. And he gets criticized a lot in
this whole kind of his response to people wanting that
(21:57):
are seeing it because I've read interviews where he's like, Wow,
I can't believe anyone would read it that way, And
then I've read somewhere it's clear that he knows and
is sort of making fun of it. Yeah, and he
just doesn't care. Right. So there are also other shows
in entertainment that included shows like House Uh, The O,
C Merlin, Riverdale, and Rosolian Isles and among so many others,
(22:21):
Solo a Star Wars story too. By the way, UM,
some classics. Yes, And I remember this because I remember
it was so shocking to me in my very very
very conservative household, because I watched the show Gabrielle and
Zena from Zena Warrior Princess. I think that was the
first like I was like, what's happening? This is not
what um? And then of course we have the Madonna
(22:43):
and Brittany kissing at the MTV Music Awards. I think
that would be definitely one of the big queer baiting
things because there's a lot of controversy of like what
is this, why are you doing this? As well as
people always forget that Christina Aguilero was there too and
she kissed her, know if you knew that they were
both on stage with her. Yes. Also Katie Perry's I
Kissed a Girl and I liked it, which also has
(23:07):
other connotations because she had been in this very religious
lifestyle before she became well well known, which was always
kind of like huh interesting. Yeah, from what I remember,
which I feel like a lot of pop female singers
came from that kind of genre anyway. And then Rita
or a song Girls the New One, uh, because you
(23:29):
know what sex cells and there was that huge debate
about why they're doing all of this or why it's
such a new fad. It seems um and the capitalization
of pride. Companies are getting in on it, and as
we see when you get sponsored, yeah, in a Pride parade,
it's really kind of weird essentially doing the same thing,
(23:50):
not actually committing to representation, but wanting queer patronage. Yeah,
And I mean I've seen a lot of argument about
this with like kind of the annoyance with companies that
just are like, here's a rainbow colored cupcake, happy pride, right, Like,
you know, there's there's debate at least that's happening in
(24:12):
companies are appreciating the importance of it, but it feels
so like superficial and shallow. What else are you doing?
I mean that kind of goes hand in hand with
the Black Lives Matter movement and like people do the
one black tile, Like wait, but your company is not
showing that in your hiring processes and all of this,
and it's the same way you're showing this pride flag.
(24:32):
Do you have a presentation in your company? Have you
had it? Do you actually acknowledge that that needs to
be a part of your diversity. Hello, yes, yeah, um,
and I guess speaking of singers, are Ariana Grande got
accused of creer rating in her song Monopoly, which is
a collaboration with Victoria monet Um when she's saying about
liking men and women Taylor Swift video You need to
(24:56):
Calm down, of course, caused a huge debate of out
where was she before this? And it's sort of it
just feels like capitalizing, and there's there's a certain degree
to where people in entertainment they are trying to make money,
they are trying to profit, but it can feel so
gross and like but what else have you done? What
(25:19):
else are you doing? Um? And some people it's we
should say view the very existence of queer brading as progress,
that queer brading, the term, wouldn't exist without at least
some queer acceptance and examples in our media. There's also
a debate about erasure versus labeling, like some some argue
(25:43):
that it shouldn't be that you have to explicitly label oh,
this is the gay couple, and then it becomes, at
least unfortunately right now, it becomes their defining thing, like
that is all about them and they're not really complex
or nuanced other than that. So that's another piece of this, right,
And I think when you see because Ariana Grande was
(26:06):
uh in two debates, the Monopoly song and another one
where the video uh where she's talking about getting together
with a dude ends up in the end the video
kissing a girl. Um, and that was I was staying
more criticism on that because obviously that wasn't necessarily a
part of the song. Right. And then you have Monopoly
(26:26):
where she people felt like she actually came out as
by or pants actual and people celebrated that. So it's
really interesting to see the two levels of like, okay,
who and what dictates if this should be celebrated or
this should be condemned, right, and interesting conversation. It does
come up in a lot of things we talked about
where it's always important to remind yourself no community is
(26:48):
a monolith and that there should there should be healthy debate,
and that's good. I do think it's good that it's happening.
But yeah, you can see it definitely and things like
that with Ariana Grande. Right, Um, there's all so a
difference between queer baiting and ship teasing. Ship teasing which
I didn't know, and doulges now is different because at
least one person in question is canonically queer. Also, there's
(27:13):
a problem with only defining relationships the physical things, like
sus I, it's queer baiting if the same sex couple
doesn't have sex but are clearly together in other way. Yeah,
that's caused a lot of debate too. Of right, well
we never saw them have sex, but there there are
other ways to be in relationships. More representation the through
(27:34):
line through this whole episode. But that is problematic to
you when you're saying, well, you're not in a relationship
because you never had sex. Um. And And just to
to clarify for people who are in as big big
nerds as I am, Cannon is the accepted uh like
not fan fiction. This is what happened, so they acknowledge, Oh,
this character is gay. It's Cannon instead of me being
(27:58):
like but Dean and he's bisexual and it's just me
and a lot of other people but not creators. Um
oh uh. So queer coding is also a different thing,
And this I didn't know about until we did this episode.
Mary Kate McAlpine over at Medium It wrote about hot
Fuzz in particular, and I got to watch it for
(28:19):
the first time. It was some of the best research
I've ever had. Um. And so this is the Simon
peg Nick Frost film, which was a two thousand and
seven action comedy that was the second in the so
called Cornetto trilogy. In the editing of the script, they
got rid of uh the love interest at the female
love interest and made the conscious decision to leave in
(28:41):
those scenes with the overlying romantic interest between the two
male characters. Um or at least it can definitely be
read that way. And and one of the creators, they've
acknowledged it, celebrated it. Um they're all for you shipping
it uh anything. Never. One thing that makes this example
(29:02):
in particular different is they never make fun of There's
never to the moment of like are YouTube king or
something like. It's not it's just not mentioned. Um. So
that is queer coding. This to say, queer baiting sometimes
gets level that fandoms where the relationships don't go the
way fans want, which I feel like happens a lot,
especially towards the end of a series. Um. There's some
(29:25):
contention around whether we can assume what the creators intended
and what we wanted, and that was worse than when
creators and actors played into the trope and people saw
an evil plant. I had to do that way. Sorry.
M Ships can be a very risky business. The question becomes,
are we we are baiting ourselves? Are we so desperate
(29:48):
for representation or we're seeing it where it isn't And
are we dismissing cannon couples because we want to ship
another couple so badly and we'll see no evidence otherwise.
Any do you se I think I'm a very flexible
I could admit I don't know. I'm not very possessive
or controlling, which I think it's the way to be
(30:09):
of entertainment. And I'll be like, you know what, I
can recognize it was never meant to go this way,
but it's fun to think about. And by the way,
some called this slash goggles. Yes, so fandoms can be
they can be very um protective of stuff that they
care about, and um there can be a level of
(30:33):
like infighting and gatekeeping and entitlements and uh, I know
for some people you're thinking what because I feel you
probably won't encounter this unless you do go online and
look up fan fiction or forms or whatever. But believe me,
it's there and people will like. One of the most
(30:53):
prominent examples to me is um, people at least in
the fan fiction world really don't like Jenny Weasley and
they'll think you're stupid for even thinking they should be
a couple because they so badly wanted things to go
a different way. And that's different from queer baiting, and
and so some people are believe we use queer bating
(31:14):
way too much for we really just wanted things to
go a different way and they didn't. I mean, people
had a hard time. They really wanted uh Harry and
her money to be together. They did. My mom wanted
that too, and that was one of the cutest things
because she's also not like a super she doesn't ship
or I was just surprised when she said that. She's
(31:37):
like I thought they should have ended up together. Well,
they kind of changed the relationship between Nevil Lombottom and
Luna love Good from the books to the movies because
in the books they don't ever get together, but in
the movie they do. Yeah, I think they do get together,
but it's like not, Yeah, it's not in the books.
Like you would have to read something else, so you
would hope that it would be that, but they actually
(31:59):
made it happen. Yeah, books, and I feel like that's
definitely something that was a fan how more than it
was actually written. Oh well, that's an interesting point too,
of like fan service and uh, I mean Star Wars
comes up and so much of this because it is
as huge as we talked about, this huge franchise, right
(32:22):
and so like there was a debate around the same
sex kiss at the end of the Newest One, and
some people were like, well celebrating it. Other people were like,
that is so white. We don't even know who those
characters are. Like, um, so there is that aspect of
it too. Ah. There's a lot to unpack here, so
many things. But before we can do that, we have
(32:46):
to take one more break for a word from our
sponsor and we're back, Thank you sponsor. Uh and just
some concluding thoughts. One as promised, I wanted to touch
(33:09):
on fan fiction for a second. I would have talked
about fan fiction if I had another podcast, it would
be just fan fiction. Um. I have talked about how
powerful it is, and most people who write fan fiction
are women, are young girls, queer um from marginalized communities
(33:33):
because they we were seeing this space where we weren't
being represented, so we went and made it. And it
gets mocked and derided and ridiculed, but I think it's
this beautiful creative space. And so if you're if you're
shipping someone and it's not working out for you, there's
fan fiction for it, I guarantee you, and you can
(33:54):
always write write the fan fiction. Now, of course, this
isn't the same thing as seeing a presentation explicit representation
in the entertainment we consume um in movies and television
and books. But I just I feel like it's really
telling that we make fun of fan fiction and particularly
(34:16):
young women writing it, as if they're silly, and I
mean the fearmongering around it, you wouldn't believe it, so
that like there's like a panic around young girls writing
fan fiction and what does it mean in sexuality? And
oh my god? And um, I think that's very telling. Well,
(34:36):
I mean, we know Twilight began as fan fiction. Yes,
it's a Harry Potter fan fiction, um, as well as
it wasn't fifty Shades of Gray fan fiction. Yes. The
most hilarious thing about this to me is so Twilight
was a Harry Potter fan fiction and then Fifty Shades
of Grays a Twilight fan fiction, and there was in
fighting between them, at least I seemed recall where one
(34:58):
of them was like, you can't do that. It's like,
that's what you did. And each has its own success
and also some they made a lot of money and
they made careers and you do you At the same time,
there's this whole underlying idea of fear of sex and
fear of sexuality and it's both of those days but whatever,
(35:22):
what not, um, and you're right kind of one up
to each other. It felt like, yeah, it's funny. I
have read so much fan fiction. There's sort of more
about certain fan fictions, like there's fan fiction about this
fan fiction and I knew that one that got turned
into Twilight. I never read it, but I remember seeing it.
(35:43):
Everyone kind of knew about it. And then there's a
whole like supernatural fan fiction universe for people have taken
characters created in that universe and written about them. Um,
so well that was all Becky, like she made a
career of being a fan fiction writer. Yeah, and that's
actually easier to do than you might think. These days,
(36:05):
the copyright part can get interesting. Um. And I would
also say because some people have been like, well, write
your own thing, Like, don't take someone else's idea. It's
a hobby. It's not like, you know, if you like
to play soccer, I'm not going to tell you we'll
go professional then like you're wasting your time. Um, It's
just it's a hobby. Inspiration comes from different things, and
(36:29):
why wouldn't it come from something that you love. Yes,
it's a beautiful transformed space where fans get to kind
of play in the same sandbox. And it's nice because
you all start from that shared love of this thing,
and you don't have to explain the world. It's already
there and you could just go on. Um, although apparently
you don't have control of your world. No. The ending
(36:51):
is so tragic wa my fan fiction. You you all,
I've gotten to the end while I haven't written it,
but I know it ends, and it is the saddest
thing I've ever Wow, brutal Han and Luke will never
be happy together never um. Which was kind of a
segue into that. My next point is I do think
(37:13):
it's it's worth remembering that there's other loves than romantic love,
and I would love for us to see that more
in our media. Right For me, growing up not having
tons of boyfriends and relationships, I most loved and treasured
all of the books and or movies that were about
my friends. And of course it's not as accepted with
(37:34):
men unless you're being misogynistic together and being dumb. It
seems again that's a stereotype, but that's what the big
movie hits are if you look at like Hangover and
all of those movies. But for me, like I related
the most. I think my all time favorite book growing
up was just as Long as We're Together. So it
was a book written by Judy Bloom, which I loved
(37:56):
because it was about three girls coming of age, and
of course I also loved it because it was there
was an Asian adopted child into this book and I
felt very, very very represented for the first time ever,
um And it was one of my favorite things. And
I loved that idea of friendship. And I think that's
why I loved the shows like Sex in the City.
(38:18):
I really really clung to Now there's so many problematic
things in that show, but really clung to those friendships
and just the relationships that they had with each other
and knowing that they would be together, Like that was
the types of things that I loved because that's what
I related with most. Yeah, and it's unfortunate to see
that every time you see any relationship it has to
(38:40):
be romantic, no matter what. That somehow is being ruined
by romance. Rutte ruins everything. I'm just saying, yeah, and
I uh, the we just need to see more and
we need to see more platonic relationships and love, and
we need to see relationshs just between queer people, groups
(39:01):
of queer people, and then queer people and straight people.
There's a lot there's a lot of things at play here. Um.
And one other thing I read in a lot of
articles is it's really difficult to know what a creator intended,
and so it's really hard and less the creator flat
out says, oh, I never meant for this. Can it's
(39:24):
hard to say what they originally met. And there's also
the aspect of that that who gets to own like
if if if I want to see de c l
like is that that microactive? Um? And it's that explicit
(39:46):
representation is very very important, but that comes up a lot,
and whether or not queer baiting is as big a
thing um on the argument around, like some people think
it doesn't exist at all. Um. I think where I've
landed is it is this sort of like taunting of
(40:08):
I don't know if tauntings right word, but of companies
knowing what they're doing but never intending to have that payoff.
So I remember when Solo, a Star Wars story came out.
In the trailer, there was just like some shot that
made you think, oh, Lando and Han are going to
get together, And then you see the movie and you're like, no,
there's nothing they're really other than Lando who have sex
(40:30):
with anybody, um or anything right Millennium Falcon uh So
that kind of thing, right, I feel like at least
somebody made a calculated decision to include that and sort
of get points for being more progressive and then had
(40:50):
no intention of ever actually doing it right. And it
wasn't until recently that we see healthy relationships instead of
the in the trope of a gay man obviously going
after every heterosexual man and making this whole like predatory line,
and you know, instead of seeing actual healthy relationship once again,
(41:11):
where you know, you see just friendship and it's uh,
it's about time that we see that level and yeah,
coming out as hey, yes, these two are together. Yes,
these two discovered that they actually are in love even
though they didn't know it at the beginning. Why can't
that happen instead of it being all hidden and cloak
(41:32):
and dager type of situation? Right? And I think I
would go at least in my opinion, when I think
of creerbating, there is a level of mocking to it too, like, oh, well,
you're just reading too much into this, right, and then
that could goes straight into you just putting a gay
person in there, So he's going to be the gay sidekick.
(41:54):
We're gonna a person of color in there. That's a
person of color. That's just a sidekick. She's just a byline,
um and all. Basically it's a secondary whatever. So if
there's a guy, you know, I love the stories where
there's two guys and the guy who's the cast off
goes with a lesser friend. I don't love it. I'm
being sarcastic, but you know what I mean that that's
(42:14):
kind of that whole level and it's kind of like, uh,
that was unnecessary and it's not it's not necessarily what
you want to see as a representation, and what what's
the point of this? Right? And and I know we
recently released the classic about the barrier gaze trope and
a lot of that is intertwined in this whole conversation
of well, here's a gay relationship, but it never ends happy,
(42:40):
happily one of them dies and it's usually not as
developed at all. I know that one hundred the Alexa
pledge that comes up in in that conversation all the time.
So that's also related to this of we'll give you
this queer relationship, but only for a short time. It's
not gonna happily right enjoy Yeah, yeah, be grateful. Uh yeah.
(43:07):
So clearly a lot to say around this, a lot
of debate happening, which I think is good. I'm glad
we're having those conversations and we need to keep having them.
Um And we would love for you listeners to share
your thoughts about any of this. Also, I would love
any I'm somebody who, even though I don't ship things,
I like to find the most kind of out of
(43:31):
I would never pictured this couple together. I like, I
like finding that kind of stuff. So if you getta
have any interesting ships you want to tell us about,
Please let us know. You can email us at Stuff Media,
mom Stuff at I heart media dot com. You can
find us on Instagram at stuff I Ever Told You,
are on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always
to a super producer Andrew Howard. Thanks and thanks to
(43:54):
you for listening Stuff I Never Told You the protection
of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from I Heart
Radio is Bee I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and don't welcome to stuff.
I never told your protection if I heart radio. So
I have a very important question for you, Samantha. Oh no, yes,
the most important question. Hey, here we go. Are you
(00:27):
a shipper? Okay, so I don't. I didn't know what
that was for the longest time, and I took that
very literally and I was like, like ships like I
like ships? I neither ship. I don't mean, don't you
like ships? I know because I get very very like
motion sick. So the idea of being on a ship
(00:48):
is terrifying to me. And just because you know, all
I think of is diseases like cruises, cruise ships and diseases,
so and murders in the middle of nowhere. So yeah, no,
but that that I know what it actually is, which
is meaning putting people together in relationships. Right, Okay. I
had to ask again because I'm like, I'm not one
of those cool kids. What does this mean? So no,
(01:13):
very long answer no, because I had no idea what
that was. Now do I like couples that are given
to me? Like I know that? Yes, so don't make
sense and fill force? But you know, but so are
you like watching a show and there's two characters and
you just want them to get together, or do you
(01:36):
sort of just sort of go with it. I think
typically I go with it now to be fair s vu.
For the longest time, I did want Olivia and Stabler.
Elliott and Olivia they should have gotten together, but they
really shouldn't know because you can't work like that, and
they know. But to me, Olivia was just so alone
(01:57):
and her closest connection was him, so it only made
sense to me. Mm hmm. Did you know anyone else
that shared that viewpoint? Oh? So many people, which is why,
even though you know it is a cop show, people
are still excited that Elliott Stabler is coming back, he's
having a he's getting his own show, and people cross,
(02:19):
probably because it's definitely another law You know, Law in
Order has like fifteen shows and this is one more
of those. But yeah, it's gonna be a cover crossover.
And anytime they do like cross social media people freak out.
I am one of those people, It's true. One more
follow up question, does this couple have a name, like
(02:40):
a ship name? See? That never happened in my generation.
I don't think really, that wasn't a thing. Who was
the most famous couple that has I don't know. I
always think of Brand Jelina. Oh yeah, yeah, there you go,
Brand Angelina, so that is in my time frame. But
I think that was just so dumb because I also
was not team but Angelina. Okay, I was too, So
(03:06):
that helps like that just has a negative connotation to me.
Mm hmmmm. So obviously, since you're asking me these questions,
you and I know that because of your fan fiction,
you ship. You shipp pretty hard, don't you. I it's
so funny to me, um, because, as I've said before,
(03:27):
I am not a romantic person. Like I don't watch
rom coms. It's not my thing. It's almost always my
least favorite part of any entertainment because I'm just not
into it. Um. But recently, I don't know why I
have started shipping things, and I think I shipp things
(03:50):
that I can tell it's never gonna happen. I don't know,
because it feels almost like a safer thing. Are more
fun to imagine? Is it more like a conspiracy theory
type of Yeah, they're actually together, even though they're not
going to say it out loud, but if you watch
their actions, they're together. Well, I've had an in depth
(04:17):
discussion recently with a lot of people about UM, particularly
Star Wars, and sure, yeah, Luke and and Han and
that I've started shipping that, and I have no idea why,
UM and I. So today we're we're talking about queer baiting.
And when I think about the difference to me and
(04:39):
what queer baiting is and isn't, because there is a
huge debate over it is intention and I I don't
feel like the writers ever meant for anybody to interpret that.
Han and Luke we're gonna be together, you know what
I mean. So it doesn't feel like a conspiracy so
much is But he he rushed off into the blizzard
(05:02):
on half to save him and body heat. It's true.
It's true. It's true. It's true. We saw it. I've
seen it several times now, so many now. Yes, Yes,
you're the best, thank you. Yes. So we're talking about
the contentious term of queer bating, which is something that
(05:23):
has been on my mind for a while. UM and
I have found myself falling into these relationships that get
brought up in this conversation a lot. Dean and Cassile
from Supernatural DESTI l is probably the one of the biggest,
if not the biggest example given. Um oh yes, now,
(05:46):
don't get me wrong. Before I even started watching it
and now I have, it's one of my regulars now,
my rotation. Um, you did tell me those you this
was the first thing you told me. And and then
when I was introduced Castile on the show, I was like, oh,
there he is, and You're like just wait, just wait.
And then they even have an episode where they dedicate
(06:07):
to the fact that that is a theory. Yeah, the
fan fiction episode, right, yes, yes, um yeah, They're probably
the biggest example. And it's one of those things where
again I'm kind of oblivious almost when it comes to
romantic singles that Samantha, you know this, I just miss
(06:29):
a lot of context, a lot. But the fact that
I picked up on Dusty l without the Internet, I
think that is that says something. I was like, these
two characters, something's going on here. This is a little
I can see them getting together. Dean even says he
loves him anyway. The signs are there, Samantha, The signs
(06:52):
are there apparently, yes, yes, um, And then I I
got really caught up in Finn and Poe for a
hot man it from Star Wars, which is called Storm Pilot.
That's the shipping name for that, and I really wanted
them to end up together. Um, and I could go
on such a deep dive and I kind of did
(07:13):
in our two part fan fiction episodes on why this
whole thing is where? Why are we so eager or
at least some segment of us to put two male
characters together. Um. I don't know if you know this, Samantha,
because you not in the fan fiction world like I am,
but slash it just makes up a huge, huge portion
(07:38):
of fan fiction and it's mostly written by women, and
it's two men together. What's slash? Oh? Is that what
it's called? Yeah? Okay, because you you indicate with the slash,
so it would be deem slash castil oh. So yeah,
that's not how I okay. I'm glad you told me that,
because I would have interpreted as a different thing, like
they're the same person, one in the same but not
necessarily relationship or is or mm hmm okay. Yeah. Well
(08:05):
I'm happy to share my fan fiction knowledge at any point. So, um,
I actually I feel like I could do a ten
part series on this, and I want to talk about
it so much, but if I do it in a
kind of a nutshell, I think one of the main
reasons is there are more male characters. They're traditionally more
(08:26):
well developed, the male body is less politicized in the
female body in a plethora of ways. Uh. And then
the lack of platonic relationships, but particularly between men and
women in our media, but also men and men, um,
and so any type of closeness. I feel like we
automatically interpret it as romantic because it usually is. But um,
(08:52):
the truth remains that some companies and creators tease a
queer relationship and never actually give it. And it's become
a hot topic of debate. And uh, I've I've seen
it in uh so so many things. And and oh, anyway,
(09:17):
another piece of this, I I know I'm seeing things,
like I said, where writers didn't intend it, like in
Han and Luca is the best example, because I just
feel like there's no way they thought all these women
was latch onto that right. Um. And I know I
brought up before, UM how my gay male gay friends
(09:40):
have said that this makes them uncomfortable that they feel
like they can't have platonic relationships with a man without
it being misinterpreted by somebody. And I I would love
to to hear from gay listeners with your thoughts and
experiences about this. Um. I know, for me personally, when
I hadn't really come out as VIBE, but I had
(10:01):
been with men and women, there was sort of this
assumed sluttiness that I must be attracted to everyone, right,
and um it was really problematic and it made me
very uncomfortable. And and I had more than one dude
he would come up to me and say, well, you
kissed her, so you must be down to kiss me. What. Um?
(10:24):
So yes, please listeners right in your thoughts about that,
your experiences with that. But okay, let's start with a definition. Essentially,
queer baiting is what it sounds like. It's when creators
and corporations lure lgbt Q plus audiences with the promise
of a queer relationship and then that queer relationship never happens.
(10:46):
Queer baiting is usually between two male characters. Again, that
could be because most of our developed characters are male,
but not always. Queer baiting is a way for our
entertainment to appeal to the masses while also safely bringing
in l g B t Q plus characters, so sort
of like a like kind of backhanded way of trying
(11:08):
to have your cake and eat it too, to not
offend anybody. UM. Some see queer bating as a lack
of representation leading to misinterpretation. Some see it as a
calculated strategy, like these storylines are never going to pay off,
They never intended for them to pay off. They see
it as a way for companies to use queer people
(11:30):
as almost pawns and profitability. It's a big tease the
creators put in this subtext that is never going to
amount to anything. UM Glad's report found that about six
point four percent of television's main characters or l g
B t Q plus, So that's not that many, and
(11:55):
just I would I would ask take a moment to
absorb how not only disappointing but painful that is it's
toying with the community that doesn't frequently see themselves represented,
and then almost ridiculing people in that community for thinking
that that relationship could ever have been queer, that you
could ever have interpreted it that way. It's almost gas lighting,
(12:16):
like how how did you see this? Your silly fan,
you're reading too much into it um. Some of these
relationships are openly made fun of by creators, and the
overall messages representation of these relationships is worth less than
the risk of offending any homophobic audience member, right, And
I would add that it seems like it fetishizes that
(12:38):
in general, the LGBTQ population in general, which is harmful
in every way. Let's just go in. But fetishizing anything
is harmful. But it does through that, and that's you're
they're using it as a way to make profit, which
is gross. Yes, yes it is, but a very brief history.
In the ninety nineties, companies started going after what was
(12:58):
called the pink the dollar, or gay patronage. Some experts
argue the merit of this idea. Either way, cur bating
stem from the corporate desire to market to l g
bt Q plus audiences while not once again deterring any
homophobic viewers having their cake like you said, and eating
it too. So I gotta have it all, want all
the audience, so God have to say in that fun line.
(13:22):
So queer bating has a long history, but it's in
it's more modern sense. It goes back to quote gay
window advertising in the nineteen eighties, or using subtle elements
to draw in the l g B, d Q plus crowd.
Some scholars also called this gay vague. There's also hoh
yea or homooticism yea, which was first coined in two
(13:44):
thousand one, which is more closely related to queer coating
or reading. More on that in a second, But in
the early nineteen eighties it was used in the U. S.
Courts to describe homophobic rhetoric. It's current meaning most likely
originates on tumbler as early as the nineties. So another
part of this is called situational homosexuality. Essentially, the absence
(14:05):
of the characters of one gender means that people read
a certain amount of same sex eroticism. However, many modern
day researchers think the term is archaic, that it could
apply to things like prisons, a temporary state, sort of
like quote I experimented in college, right as if it's
only it's just based on the city. It was just
(14:25):
a stage. It was just a stage in my life. Yeah. Yeah,
So there are a lot, a lot of aspects to
unpack in all of that, and we will, but first
we're gonna pause for a quick break for word from
our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you sponsor. So let's
(14:56):
let's return again to Supernatural, which I do think it's
probably the biggest example modern current example of this if
we look at it specifically. Some have argued that when
creators leaned into Destio, which is again these the team
of main characters Dean and Castile, their ratings went up
and the nature of that show, and that it is
very self aware and very meta. There's like fan fiction
(15:19):
about It's kind of confusing to explain, but I love
seeing people's faces when I try to explain this. Basically,
they're they're sort of semi famous in this world, in
this fake world, and people write fan fiction about them.
But it's a cult, and it seems like it's mainly
like young Yes Oh, who she is the biggest fan
(15:44):
of of Supernatural within the world which is like a
series of books. Um she is like the most stereotypical
fan fiction girl that they could have written. They did,
um so because it is that way, because it is
(16:04):
very self aware and very meta, there's a lot of
room for creators to address these things, to directly address
They're the fan culture, the fandom around Supernatural. Well, at
the same time, sometimes mocking and dismissing them. The actors
also play with at conventions and in bloopers, this Dean
and Castile relationship, so they know about it and they
(16:29):
leaned into it, but there's still kind of a mockery
of it. I think it make fun of themselves in general.
But yeah, they definitely, and especially the earlier episodes, the
kind of homophobic yeah lines and and taglines. It's kind
of it's sad. Yeah, yeah, and I I will fight anyone.
I think Dean it is bisexual. I don't care what
(16:51):
the creators say, but that's my opinion. I like that
you get the one that is the most like as
as he put sit in the show, because I just
rewatched this episode where they are where the brothers are
actually confused in being in the relationship and they're like,
why do they think we're gay? Dean's like why do
we why do they think we're gay? And uh, Sam,
(17:13):
I can't believe I'm telling this. Sam's responses, Maybe you'r
but you're overcompensating. Is that why you think that? Now?
It's it's odd because if you if a show goes
on long enough, it's just this show is like fifteen
years old. There's gonna be inconsistencies with the character because
he is presented is like this alpha male always with
(17:36):
the ladies, um womanizer. Womanizer definitely uh and you know
he like listens to hard rock and he's a classic
rock and he's gotta classic classic rock. I don't know.
I can't really put my finger on why I think
it and get too hard into Supernatural and everybody's like,
(17:56):
what the hell are y'all doing? This is not sman.
Would you say Crowley and Dean were also a ship? Oh? Absolutely, yes,
and it probably pretty much talks about being I think
he's bisexual. He kind of lens into that anywhere there
was a whole like triangle castile Crowley Dean. Yes, all right, okay,
(18:19):
we've talked about Supernatural lot. Here's the probably the other
biggest example UM is the BBC show Sherlock. I don't
think you could read one article about queer bading and
not come across this um. And it is shipping of
the two main characters, John Watson and Sherlock Holmes, which
is called John Walk which, by the way, again this
(18:43):
is where I'm like, what, what's happening? What I don't
understand what's happening because I loved that show. I love
that show. That was one of the ones that I
was always into. And like, I know, the conversation came
up that Sherlock maybe gay or bisexual because he's never
been with women, or been with anyone quote unquote it's
(19:04):
specifically women. But I've never like, I know, there's that
underlying joke because they're always together, so everybody assumes they're together, which,
by the way, once again is kind of like, why
can't they just be friends in the story. But yeah,
and I didn't. I never saw that. It's one of
those things where once you look at and and Samantha,
(19:26):
believe me, you can find, you know, gifts, just pages
of gifts, like see the proof. Um, once you see it,
it's hard to unsee. They definitely stand really like way
too close to each other a lot like face to face.
And I know, I don't really remember it, it's been
so long since I watched it, but I know there
(19:46):
was like Moriarty is sometimes criticized as being painted his
like the evil gay trope, kind of like a disturbed individual. Um,
And I know there was something along with that that
people often point to and and yeah, as you're saying,
I do see the point that because of the lack
(20:10):
of representation, Um, I don't. I mean this is also
you could argue very true about our our society in
the real world, where where men aren't allowed to have
these emotional, deeply patonic relationships without them being read as romance. Um,
the SAME's true for female characters. Again, I think I
(20:33):
know I mentioned in a past episode if if if
Luke had in fact been a woman, I'm telling you
you would have been like it would have been meant
to be interpreted that way. Um, people would read their
relationship between John and Sherlock be as romantic if one
of them was me on the other female, or at
least a lot more people would. Again, it boils down
(20:53):
to we don't have a lot of representation, and we
don't have a lot of diversity of stories being told
and relationships and complex nuanced relationships. And I think that's changing.
But right now we're we're just so desperate for these stories,
so we're finding them where we can, are writing them.
And I will come back to the importance of fan
(21:15):
fiction and all this in a minute. Um. And John
Lack is a great example where there are all these
in show jokes that they are a coupled that show
acknowledging what fans want to using it, but then nothing happens. Um.
There are even references to Shorelock moriarity fan fiction that
are derided in the show. The creator Stephen Moffatt went
(21:35):
out of his way to say an interview in terms
of whether or not Shrlock was a sexual is the
choice of a monk, not the choice of an a sexual.
If he was a sexual, there would be no tension
in that, no fun in that. It's someone who abstains
who's interesting. Um. And he gets criticized a lot in
this whole kind of his response to people wanting that
(21:57):
are seeing it because I've read interviews where he's like, Wow,
I can't believe anyone would read it that way, And
then I've read somewhere it's clear that he knows and
is sort of making fun of it. Yeah, and he
just doesn't care. Right. So there are also other shows
in entertainment that included shows like House Uh, The O,
C Merlin, Riverdale, and Rosolian Isles and among so many others,
(22:21):
Solo a Star Wars story too. By the way, UM,
some classics. Yes, And I remember this because I remember
it was so shocking to me in my very very
very conservative household, because I watched the show Gabrielle and
Zena from Zena Warrior Princess. I think that was the
first like I was like, what's happening? This is not
what um? And then of course we have the Madonna
(22:43):
and Brittany kissing at the MTV Music Awards. I think
that would be definitely one of the big queer baiting
things because there's a lot of controversy of like what
is this, why are you doing this? As well as
people always forget that Christina Aguilero was there too and
she kissed her, know if you knew that they were
both on stage with her. Yes. Also Katie Perry's I
Kissed a Girl and I liked it, which also has
(23:07):
other connotations because she had been in this very religious
lifestyle before she became well well known, which was always
kind of like huh interesting. Yeah, from what I remember,
which I feel like a lot of pop female singers
came from that kind of genre anyway. And then Rita
or a song Girls the New One, uh, because you
(23:29):
know what sex cells and there was that huge debate
about why they're doing all of this or why it's
such a new fad. It seems um and the capitalization
of pride. Companies are getting in on it, and as
we see when you get sponsored, yeah, in a Pride parade,
it's really kind of weird essentially doing the same thing,
(23:50):
not actually committing to representation, but wanting queer patronage. Yeah,
And I mean I've seen a lot of argument about
this with like kind of the annoyance with companies that
just are like, here's a rainbow colored cupcake, happy pride, right, Like,
you know, there's there's debate at least that's happening in
(24:12):
companies are appreciating the importance of it, but it feels
so like superficial and shallow. What else are you doing?
I mean that kind of goes hand in hand with
the Black Lives Matter movement and like people do the
one black tile, Like wait, but your company is not
showing that in your hiring processes and all of this,
and it's the same way you're showing this pride flag.
(24:32):
Do you have a presentation in your company? Have you
had it? Do you actually acknowledge that that needs to
be a part of your diversity. Hello, yes, yeah, um,
and I guess speaking of singers, are Ariana Grande got
accused of creer rating in her song Monopoly, which is
a collaboration with Victoria monet Um when she's saying about
liking men and women Taylor Swift video You need to
(24:56):
Calm down, of course, caused a huge debate of out
where was she before this? And it's sort of it
just feels like capitalizing, and there's there's a certain degree
to where people in entertainment they are trying to make money,
they are trying to profit, but it can feel so
gross and like but what else have you done? What
(25:19):
else are you doing? Um? And some people it's we
should say view the very existence of queer brading as progress,
that queer brading, the term, wouldn't exist without at least
some queer acceptance and examples in our media. There's also
a debate about erasure versus labeling, like some some argue
(25:43):
that it shouldn't be that you have to explicitly label oh,
this is the gay couple, and then it becomes, at
least unfortunately right now, it becomes their defining thing, like
that is all about them and they're not really complex
or nuanced other than that. So that's another piece of this, right,
And I think when you see because Ariana Grande was
(26:06):
uh in two debates, the Monopoly song and another one
where the video uh where she's talking about getting together
with a dude ends up in the end the video
kissing a girl. Um, and that was I was staying
more criticism on that because obviously that wasn't necessarily a
part of the song. Right. And then you have Monopoly
(26:26):
where she people felt like she actually came out as
by or pants actual and people celebrated that. So it's
really interesting to see the two levels of like, okay,
who and what dictates if this should be celebrated or
this should be condemned, right, and interesting conversation. It does
come up in a lot of things we talked about
where it's always important to remind yourself no community is
(26:48):
a monolith and that there should there should be healthy debate,
and that's good. I do think it's good that it's happening.
But yeah, you can see it definitely and things like
that with Ariana Grande. Right, Um, there's all so a
difference between queer baiting and ship teasing. Ship teasing which
I didn't know, and doulges now is different because at
least one person in question is canonically queer. Also, there's
(27:13):
a problem with only defining relationships the physical things, like
sus I, it's queer baiting if the same sex couple
doesn't have sex but are clearly together in other way. Yeah,
that's caused a lot of debate too. Of right, well
we never saw them have sex, but there there are
other ways to be in relationships. More representation the through
(27:34):
line through this whole episode. But that is problematic to
you when you're saying, well, you're not in a relationship
because you never had sex. Um. And And just to
to clarify for people who are in as big big
nerds as I am, Cannon is the accepted uh like
not fan fiction. This is what happened, so they acknowledge, Oh,
this character is gay. It's Cannon instead of me being
(27:58):
like but Dean and he's bisexual and it's just me
and a lot of other people but not creators. Um
oh uh. So queer coding is also a different thing,
And this I didn't know about until we did this episode.
Mary Kate McAlpine over at Medium It wrote about hot
Fuzz in particular, and I got to watch it for
(28:19):
the first time. It was some of the best research
I've ever had. Um. And so this is the Simon
peg Nick Frost film, which was a two thousand and
seven action comedy that was the second in the so
called Cornetto trilogy. In the editing of the script, they
got rid of uh the love interest at the female
love interest and made the conscious decision to leave in
(28:41):
those scenes with the overlying romantic interest between the two
male characters. Um or at least it can definitely be
read that way. And and one of the creators, they've
acknowledged it, celebrated it. Um they're all for you shipping
it uh anything. Never. One thing that makes this example
(29:02):
in particular different is they never make fun of There's
never to the moment of like are YouTube king or
something like. It's not it's just not mentioned. Um. So
that is queer coding. This to say, queer baiting sometimes
gets level that fandoms where the relationships don't go the
way fans want, which I feel like happens a lot,
especially towards the end of a series. Um. There's some
(29:25):
contention around whether we can assume what the creators intended
and what we wanted, and that was worse than when
creators and actors played into the trope and people saw
an evil plant. I had to do that way. Sorry.
M Ships can be a very risky business. The question becomes,
are we we are baiting ourselves? Are we so desperate
(29:48):
for representation or we're seeing it where it isn't And
are we dismissing cannon couples because we want to ship
another couple so badly and we'll see no evidence otherwise.
Any do you se I think I'm a very flexible
I could admit I don't know. I'm not very possessive
or controlling, which I think it's the way to be
(30:09):
of entertainment. And I'll be like, you know what, I
can recognize it was never meant to go this way,
but it's fun to think about. And by the way,
some called this slash goggles. Yes, so fandoms can be
they can be very um protective of stuff that they
care about, and um there can be a level of
(30:33):
like infighting and gatekeeping and entitlements and uh, I know
for some people you're thinking what because I feel you
probably won't encounter this unless you do go online and
look up fan fiction or forms or whatever. But believe me,
it's there and people will like. One of the most
(30:53):
prominent examples to me is um, people at least in
the fan fiction world really don't like Jenny Weasley and
they'll think you're stupid for even thinking they should be
a couple because they so badly wanted things to go
a different way. And that's different from queer baiting, and
and so some people are believe we use queer bating
(31:14):
way too much for we really just wanted things to
go a different way and they didn't. I mean, people
had a hard time. They really wanted uh Harry and
her money to be together. They did. My mom wanted
that too, and that was one of the cutest things
because she's also not like a super she doesn't ship
or I was just surprised when she said that. She's
(31:37):
like I thought they should have ended up together. Well,
they kind of changed the relationship between Nevil Lombottom and
Luna love Good from the books to the movies because
in the books they don't ever get together, but in
the movie they do. Yeah, I think they do get together,
but it's like not, Yeah, it's not in the books.
Like you would have to read something else, so you
would hope that it would be that, but they actually
(31:59):
made it happen. Yeah, books, and I feel like that's
definitely something that was a fan how more than it
was actually written. Oh well, that's an interesting point too,
of like fan service and uh, I mean Star Wars
comes up and so much of this because it is
as huge as we talked about, this huge franchise, right
(32:22):
and so like there was a debate around the same
sex kiss at the end of the Newest One, and
some people were like, well celebrating it. Other people were like,
that is so white. We don't even know who those
characters are. Like, um, so there is that aspect of
it too. Ah. There's a lot to unpack here, so
many things. But before we can do that, we have
(32:46):
to take one more break for a word from our
sponsor and we're back, Thank you sponsor. Uh and just
some concluding thoughts. One as promised, I wanted to touch
(33:09):
on fan fiction for a second. I would have talked
about fan fiction if I had another podcast, it would
be just fan fiction. Um. I have talked about how
powerful it is, and most people who write fan fiction
are women, are young girls, queer um from marginalized communities
(33:33):
because they we were seeing this space where we weren't
being represented, so we went and made it. And it
gets mocked and derided and ridiculed, but I think it's
this beautiful creative space. And so if you're if you're
shipping someone and it's not working out for you, there's
fan fiction for it, I guarantee you, and you can
(33:54):
always write write the fan fiction. Now, of course, this
isn't the same thing as seeing a presentation explicit representation
in the entertainment we consume um in movies and television
and books. But I just I feel like it's really
telling that we make fun of fan fiction and particularly
(34:16):
young women writing it, as if they're silly, and I
mean the fearmongering around it, you wouldn't believe it, so
that like there's like a panic around young girls writing
fan fiction and what does it mean in sexuality? And
oh my god? And um, I think that's very telling. Well,
(34:36):
I mean, we know Twilight began as fan fiction. Yes,
it's a Harry Potter fan fiction, um, as well as
it wasn't fifty Shades of Gray fan fiction. Yes. The
most hilarious thing about this to me is so Twilight
was a Harry Potter fan fiction and then Fifty Shades
of Grays a Twilight fan fiction, and there was in
fighting between them, at least I seemed recall where one
(34:58):
of them was like, you can't do that. It's like,
that's what you did. And each has its own success
and also some they made a lot of money and
they made careers and you do you At the same time,
there's this whole underlying idea of fear of sex and
fear of sexuality and it's both of those days but whatever,
(35:22):
what not, um, and you're right kind of one up
to each other. It felt like, yeah, it's funny. I
have read so much fan fiction. There's sort of more
about certain fan fictions, like there's fan fiction about this
fan fiction and I knew that one that got turned
into Twilight. I never read it, but I remember seeing it.
(35:43):
Everyone kind of knew about it. And then there's a
whole like supernatural fan fiction universe for people have taken
characters created in that universe and written about them. Um,
so well that was all Becky, like she made a
career of being a fan fiction writer. Yeah, and that's
actually easier to do than you might think. These days,
(36:05):
the copyright part can get interesting. Um. And I would
also say because some people have been like, well, write
your own thing, Like, don't take someone else's idea. It's
a hobby. It's not like, you know, if you like
to play soccer, I'm not going to tell you we'll
go professional then like you're wasting your time. Um, It's
just it's a hobby. Inspiration comes from different things, and
(36:29):
why wouldn't it come from something that you love. Yes,
it's a beautiful transformed space where fans get to kind
of play in the same sandbox. And it's nice because
you all start from that shared love of this thing,
and you don't have to explain the world. It's already
there and you could just go on. Um, although apparently
you don't have control of your world. No. The ending
(36:51):
is so tragic wa my fan fiction. You you all,
I've gotten to the end while I haven't written it,
but I know it ends, and it is the saddest
thing I've ever Wow, brutal Han and Luke will never
be happy together never um. Which was kind of a
segue into that. My next point is I do think
(37:13):
it's it's worth remembering that there's other loves than romantic love,
and I would love for us to see that more
in our media. Right For me, growing up not having
tons of boyfriends and relationships, I most loved and treasured
all of the books and or movies that were about
my friends. And of course it's not as accepted with
(37:34):
men unless you're being misogynistic together and being dumb. It
seems again that's a stereotype, but that's what the big
movie hits are if you look at like Hangover and
all of those movies. But for me, like I related
the most. I think my all time favorite book growing
up was just as Long as We're Together. So it
was a book written by Judy Bloom, which I loved
(37:56):
because it was about three girls coming of age, and
of course I also loved it because it was there
was an Asian adopted child into this book and I
felt very, very very represented for the first time ever,
um And it was one of my favorite things. And
I loved that idea of friendship. And I think that's
why I loved the shows like Sex in the City.
(38:18):
I really really clung to Now there's so many problematic
things in that show, but really clung to those friendships
and just the relationships that they had with each other
and knowing that they would be together, Like that was
the types of things that I loved because that's what
I related with most. Yeah, and it's unfortunate to see
that every time you see any relationship it has to
(38:40):
be romantic, no matter what. That somehow is being ruined
by romance. Rutte ruins everything. I'm just saying, yeah, and
I uh, the we just need to see more and
we need to see more platonic relationships and love, and
we need to see relationshs just between queer people, groups
(39:01):
of queer people, and then queer people and straight people.
There's a lot there's a lot of things at play here. Um.
And one other thing I read in a lot of
articles is it's really difficult to know what a creator intended,
and so it's really hard and less the creator flat
out says, oh, I never meant for this. Can it's
(39:24):
hard to say what they originally met. And there's also
the aspect of that that who gets to own like
if if if I want to see de c l
like is that that microactive? Um? And it's that explicit
(39:46):
representation is very very important, but that comes up a lot,
and whether or not queer baiting is as big a
thing um on the argument around, like some people think
it doesn't exist at all. Um. I think where I've
landed is it is this sort of like taunting of
(40:08):
I don't know if tauntings right word, but of companies
knowing what they're doing but never intending to have that payoff.
So I remember when Solo, a Star Wars story came out.
In the trailer, there was just like some shot that
made you think, oh, Lando and Han are going to
get together, And then you see the movie and you're like, no,
there's nothing they're really other than Lando who have sex
(40:30):
with anybody, um or anything right Millennium Falcon uh So
that kind of thing, right, I feel like at least
somebody made a calculated decision to include that and sort
of get points for being more progressive and then had
(40:50):
no intention of ever actually doing it right. And it
wasn't until recently that we see healthy relationships instead of
the in the trope of a gay man obviously going
after every heterosexual man and making this whole like predatory line,
and you know, instead of seeing actual healthy relationship once again,
(41:11):
where you know, you see just friendship and it's uh,
it's about time that we see that level and yeah,
coming out as hey, yes, these two are together. Yes,
these two discovered that they actually are in love even
though they didn't know it at the beginning. Why can't
that happen instead of it being all hidden and cloak
(41:32):
and dager type of situation? Right? And I think I
would go at least in my opinion, when I think
of creerbating, there is a level of mocking to it too, like, oh, well,
you're just reading too much into this, right, and then
that could goes straight into you just putting a gay
person in there, So he's going to be the gay sidekick.
(41:54):
We're gonna a person of color in there. That's a
person of color. That's just a sidekick. She's just a byline,
um and all. Basically it's a secondary whatever. So if
there's a guy, you know, I love the stories where
there's two guys and the guy who's the cast off
goes with a lesser friend. I don't love it. I'm
being sarcastic, but you know what I mean that that's
(42:14):
kind of that whole level and it's kind of like, uh,
that was unnecessary and it's not it's not necessarily what
you want to see as a representation, and what what's
the point of this? Right? And and I know we
recently released the classic about the barrier gaze trope and
a lot of that is intertwined in this whole conversation
of well, here's a gay relationship, but it never ends happy,
(42:40):
happily one of them dies and it's usually not as
developed at all. I know that one hundred the Alexa
pledge that comes up in in that conversation all the time.
So that's also related to this of we'll give you
this queer relationship, but only for a short time. It's
not gonna happily right enjoy Yeah, yeah, be grateful. Uh yeah.
(43:07):
So clearly a lot to say around this, a lot
of debate happening, which I think is good. I'm glad
we're having those conversations and we need to keep having them.
Um And we would love for you listeners to share
your thoughts about any of this. Also, I would love
any I'm somebody who, even though I don't ship things,
I like to find the most kind of out of
(43:31):
I would never pictured this couple together. I like, I
like finding that kind of stuff. So if you getta
have any interesting ships you want to tell us about,
Please let us know. You can email us at Stuff Media,
mom Stuff at I heart media dot com. You can
find us on Instagram at stuff I Ever Told You,
are on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always
to a super producer Andrew Howard. Thanks and thanks to
(43:54):
you for listening Stuff I Never Told You the protection
of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from I Heart
Radio is Bee I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows
Stuff Mom Never Told You News
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Anney Reese
Samantha McVey
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