December 8, 2014 • 34 mins
Why are women getting plastic surgery to slim down their ankles? Cristen and Caroline explore how slender ankles became a feminine beauty standard and the etymology and science behind the dreaded cankles.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to stuff mom never told you. From how Supports
dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen
and I'm Caroline. And Caroline, I have a story about
my mother to share to kick off this episode about tinkles,
(00:24):
the portmanteau of cath and ankle. So when a listener
wrote us about doing an episode on kinkles, I wanted
to immediately because I remembered this moment in my childhood,
crystallized in my brain for some reason of my dear mother,
(00:49):
well meaning, I'm sure telling me apropos of nothing. Kristen,
be glad you've got slender ankles like me. Oh. I
went to school with a girl I think her name
was Mary, and she had the fattest ankles, and I
just remember thinking I had no idea, like for the
(01:10):
first time I looked down and actually saw my ankles,
And ever since then, I've kind of never stopped looking
at them, terrified of the day that what if I
go home and Mom looks down and I've got Mary's ankles.
Oh No, I never knew that that was the thing
until my mother told me, huh yeah. I feel like
(01:33):
while the whole word cankle is sort of a new
invention relatively, I feel like that attitude about slender ankles
versus stocky ankles and what that means supposedly and how
it affects your attractiveness. I feel like that's been around
for quite a while. Yeah, and so we're gonna dig
into cankles and where this idea came from that in
(01:57):
order to have a fully attractive feminine figure, it involves
the slender ankle. So arbitrary, right, it does seem so arbitrary,
and yet women are getting plastic surgery in order to
achieve that slender ankle. Look. This was a story reported
(02:19):
on in fall two thousand fourteen from ABC News on
what they termed the boot bulge of women going under
the knife so they can fit into their fall boots.
I yeah. They talked to Matthew Shulman, who's a plastic
(02:40):
surgeon in New York City, and he said, Oh, it's
definitely a thing, he said, especially this time of year
when some women aren't able to wear the boots they want.
And I mean, I know that some women's calves are
shaped in such a way that they need a boot
with a bigger leg opening, But I had not heard
of this apparent epidemic of humans who uh don't like
(03:03):
their ankles enough that they're going to pursue plastic surgery. Yeah,
nor was this the first time that ABC News had
reported on this plastic surgery trend. In quotes, Um, I mean,
I wouldn't say that it's an epidemic proportions, because when
you talk to these plastic surgeons, they'll usually say, oh,
(03:25):
I get around fifty women in a year coming in
for it. But it's reported on as if it's an epidemic,
which only further leads to this question of like, but wow,
why why are we even talking about it? So the
first thing we wanted to uncover was how and when
(03:46):
slender ankles became a feminine beauty standard, because again, so
it's so far far. It's like at the opposite end
of of our bodies. Why why worry about them? Well,
I guess we worry about them now because we wear clothes,
or we wear a lack of clothes that showcase our
(04:07):
legs and ankles as opposed to back in the day
of I mean forever Victorian era, particularly when you're wearing
these huge dresses with bustles and everything, and so your
your legs and definitely your ankles are covered. So there
was almost no there's almost no social etiquette fashion rule
for what your legs, little on your ankles should look like,
(04:31):
right because no one saw them, right, So no big deal. Um.
But it's around the nineteen tins and moving into the
World War One era when hemlines inched above the ankle,
and so, like you said, Caroline, they're on display for
the very first time. And um, these hemlines were referred
to as the new crinoline or war crinoline, and this
(04:56):
above the ankle hemline was referred to as the new
crinoline or war crinoline um. And it was brought about
largely because more women were working due to World War One.
And of course the hemlines continue to rise through the
late nineteen twenties with a flapper air, although they would
(05:16):
then drop down again in the nineteen thirties, but still
by then the ankle was fully on display. Scandalous. So
you know, we still haven't hit on exactly why a
slender ankle is the ideal versus you know, why don't
we value uh stock your ankle or just like every
(05:37):
ankle is fine the way it is yeah, exactly, Um,
every ankle is sacred. Well, we looked at this book
called Ideal Images and Kinsey's Women by June mock Over
rhin Issh and she talks about the Gibson Girl who
came to us courtesy of illustrator Charles Dana Gibson. And
(05:57):
this particular woman had slender ankles wind shown, so she
when she as she lifted up her dress, she uh
displayed curvaceous calves that tapered down to a slender ankle.
And so this was one of the first pop culture
if you will, uh references to what an ankle maybe
(06:19):
should look like, right, because the Gibson girl was the
embodiment of idealized Edwardian beauty that then leading into the
early twentieth century, and so there every now and then
she would be shown in her bathing suit. And I
thought it was interesting to how that shape of the
(06:41):
shape lee calf leading into the more tapered ankles, sort
of the inverse of that idealized our glass figure up top.
And it also is significant that in the nineties as
legs became far more of a beauty focus because for
the first time we're really seeing them outside of the house.
(07:02):
This was also when the more curvaceous matron lee figure
that was hailed during the Edwardian era was replaced by
the stick straight, thin ideal of the Flapper era. So
we were priding ourselves in thinness more than before, and
(07:23):
that just trickled on down to our ankle. Sure did
trickle down. But even before the nineties, if you looked
to nineteen fifteen in the Gazette Times, there was an
article pinned by a ballerina prima donna Lucrezia Bori, titled
how to make your ankles really slender and shapely, And
(07:45):
she writes, or maybe she writes, I don't know, she
put her name to it, A heavy, shapeless ankle is
almost a deformity, and no exertion should be spared to
reduce its size. You can never associate dainty with a
woman who has large ankles. What so, immediately right out
of the gate, we have this perception. Well sure, because
(08:06):
I think it's the same kind of thing that we
hear about with women's slender wrists. There is this idea
of slender risks and slender ankles in particular, being associated
with feminine grace, daintiness, and that word dainty jumps out
because it does seem like we have this rather bizarre
(08:29):
association between not only slender ankles but also slender rists
and this idea of the dainty, graceful woman, particularly at
this time, which I mean she's kind of becoming more
of the new woman. But still it's uh, that's those
are the hallmarks of a woman and apparent isn't it
(08:51):
too kind of symbolic? And the fact that it's not
we want more of the the slender um foundation rather
than like a sturdy, solid foundation. Does it, perhaps, Caroline,
reflect the changing gender roles of the time. Oh yeah,
wanting women to take up less space both physically and
(09:12):
in the political social spheres. Yes, it could be. I
mean we might be getting a little too deep on it.
I like where we're going. Yes, well, there are also,
in addition to these recommended exercises for women to keep
their ankles slender, which in fact, you can't spot reduce
the size of your ankles. Ankle exercises, no matter what
(09:35):
Lucrezia Bori says, will not change the shape of your ankles.
There were also products to help women achieve this slender
ankle ideal, including things like ankle course's and that's spelled
with a K in Kardashian style. And there are also
shoes designed, such as the foot Saver, which were specifically
(09:58):
designed to uh supposedly keep women's ankles at least appearing
more slender. But I mean, this is to me, this,
this is insane to go back and uncover this history
of ankle slenderizing products because you think of things like
this as more of a modern you know, panic fueled
(10:19):
by women's magazines who were out to make everyone feel
bad about their bodies, you know, indirectly. But but no,
I mean there are these great but terrible old advertisements
featuring illustrations of these ankle courses that I'm sure by
the end of the day your foot would be completely
black and blue from wearing it. Well, And I mean
(10:40):
and also too, this was still being these ideas were
still being perpetuated in in women's magazines, you know, like
it's uh, It's just what's more astounding is that we're
getting these same messages today, right, So that leads us
up to the sword cankle, which when we talk about
(11:04):
cankles today, it is an insulting portmanteau referring to the
cankle ankle combo, implying that there is no definition between
the two, essentially from your knee to your foot. It's
it's relatively shapeless, right, But it actually got to start
as a different portmanteau that blended the words canker an
(11:26):
ankle to mean a foot store in a essay by
sci fi writer Don Webb. Yeah, and we got that
tidbit from a post by Autumn Whitefield Madronto over at
her fantastic blog The Beheld, in which she also wanted
to know where did this cankle thing come from? And
I was so surprised to learn that the source of
(11:51):
cankle ladies and gentlemen is none other than a two
thousand one cinematic masterpiece called Shallow How, Shallow How, starring
Gwyneth Paltrow, n Fat Suit, Jack Black, and Jason Alexander,
whose character is a jerk and always fat shaming one
(12:12):
of Paltrow's character, and he uses cankle to describe quote.
It's like the calf merged with the foot and cut
out the middleman, just continuing Jason Alexander's trend of playing
gross characters. But we can't blame Jason Alexander the person. Well, sure,
(12:32):
but my mother will because like she cannot watch a
Jason Alexander movie, TV show, anything after he played the
Griss character and pretty Woman. So Sally would absolutely blame
Jason Alexander the person. Yeah, he's definitely has been typecast
because when I learned that, I immediately thought I cannot
continue to use a word coined by George Castanza. That's
(12:57):
how on earth is that possible man who takes his
shirt off to go to the bathroom? Um? Well, in
two thousand three, so just two years after Shallow how
comes out, the word pops up in Glamour magazine, And
of course if it's in Glamour, it's probably another lady
magazines by then. Um, but Glamour rights that it's a
(13:17):
genetic fact. Some women have cankles, thick calflic ankles. And
so I feel like the sentiment there is a little
bit better because they're explaining that, hey, this is a
genetic thing, Like don't you know, this is not like
you need to do crunches for your feet or whatever
to get rid of it. It's just something that you
will deal with. But it's just unfortunate that in the process,
(13:38):
they really kind of went gung ho, adopting the word cankle. Yeah,
and automn at the Beheld goes on to describe how
quote by two thousand six, kinkles had made it into
Men's Health, Women's Health Newsweek, Skinny Bitch, a small library
of novels and un noteworthy books, and the weekly World News,
(13:59):
which wreck amended a magic spell to get rid of them,
which involved the new moon African violet and visualizing your
cankles going to a person of your choosing. It doesn't work.
It doesn't work. It doesn't work, trust me. And you
can't get rid of your belly fat that way either,
ladies and gentlemen. So clearly it didn't take too long
(14:20):
for cankle to enter its way into our almost everyday vernacular,
to the point now that this has gone from just
being considered a genetic fact of like, Okay, some women
have thicker ankles than others, No big deal, right, not
(14:40):
so much anymore, because the cankle has been completely pathologized.
And we're going to talk more about that when we
come right back from a quick break. All right, So
before the break, we were talking about kind of the
history of where a word cankle came from and where
(15:01):
we got this concept that the daintier ankle is the
better ankle. But we should definitely talk about how all
of those trends and all of those perceptions have led
us to where we are now, which is a state
of affairs in which many people, not a ton, but
many people have started to seek out plastic surgery for
(15:25):
what they consider to be stocky ankles. And regardless of
how many women are actually undergoing this plastic surgery, this
micro liposuction, it's still something that is brought up and
mentioned in every single news story about it. It says,
oh God, women are freaking out about their cankles and
(15:47):
so like bo suction um. And a lot of this
really started in terms of the broader media coverage in
two thousand nine when Gold's Gym launched its ankle awareness campaign.
So funny, right, And that led to all of these
(16:07):
media outlets being like, oh, cankles, what's going on? Oh
should you go to the gym? Oh? And ABC Health again, ABC?
What's does the C in ABC stand for cankle or something?
Because they're really into this. ABC Health covers this cankle
awareness campaign from Gold's gym. This ad campaign they had
and asked whether you know ladies or cankles the new
(16:30):
muffintop and even to the point that there article their
report on cankles. The lead was, while you were busy
worrying about muffin topping over the waistband of your jeans
or cottage cheese on your thighs, you should have been
fretting over the shapeliness of your ankles. Cankles or less
(16:53):
than smelt ankles are the thunder thighs of the new millennium.
What is wrong with them? What is wrong with them
that they are not only talking about cankles, fine, talk
about cankles. We're talking about cankles, but they're literally saying
you should have been fretting over the shapeliness of your ankles. Well,
and they also just went pretty much down the female
(17:14):
body like muffin top, oh, cellulite, oh, cankles, thunder thighs too,
just pulling the thunder thighs out of nowhere. I mean,
ABC Health is doing. We talked on the podcast a
lot about the policing of women's bodies. This is like
a insanely crystal clear version example of policing women's this
(17:36):
is the swat team. They let out the swat team
on that um. And then in two thousand eleven, Marie
Claire published an article on the cankle surgery trend trend
in quotes because it does lead to the question of
how many people does it take to form a trend
um because there aren't hard numbers on precisely how many
(18:00):
people are getting this LiPo section. Um. But this Maria
Claire article was really a first person report of this
woman who was dissatisfied with her ankles her whole life
and it really bothered her. And apparently a side note
she I hope this was made up, talked about how
her boyfriend would always make doodles of her with ugly
(18:22):
ankles um, which, honey, I don't think you need lipos section,
you know what I mean. But it's really just her
journey to getting this surgery. Yeah. And so the whole
deal with the surgery that she went through is that
if you're the best candidate for it, you can't have
ankles that are too muscly or bones that are too
(18:43):
big to get in the way. And it's all about
getting to the fat pads in that region of the leg.
The thing is it's gonna run you four to six
thousand dollars plus an extra seven hundred fifty bucks for
an anesthesiologist. And okay, so let's see you have the money,
you have the will. Now, as far as recovering from it,
(19:05):
it's sort of insane. Uh. Two months post surgery, this
woman still had a lot of swelling and numbness, but
it can take up to ten months to fully recover
from this, and she felt like it was worth it.
She lost an inch off both ankles and she was thrilled.
Apparently her boyfriend stopped with his rude doodles and that
(19:30):
was then the happy ending to her story. And what's
really interesting though, is the fact that with this procedure,
it's referred to as a micro liposuction because the plastic
surgeon will use a candida or tube that's roughly the
diameter of a ballpoint pin. And I want to emphasize
(19:51):
that just to get across how how how specific this
spot reduction is. Paying six thousand plus dollar lars to
have someone with that tiny of tube just suck out
some fat. And I don't want to delegitimize people's feelings
and insecurities about their angles, because we've clearly established that
(20:14):
we have been pointing at these things for a very
long time and saying, hey, if you don't have the
specific if you don't have the genetics to give you
the specific kind of ankle, then you should really feel unladylike.
But going to surgery is quite extreme. Yeah, And like
Kristen said, we we don't have exact stats on this
(20:37):
particular micro LiPo section. LiPo in general is the most
common plastic surgery in the US. UM, but plastic surgeons
definitely aren't in a rush to sort of woo women
away from getting their ankles done. Um. There was a
two thousand fourteen study called Laser Assisted Like Policis for
(20:58):
Cankle Remodeling It perspective study in thirty patients that looked
at the procedure, different ways of doing the procedure and
its success and everything like that. And uh, they used
a certain language choice, a word choice that I myself
would not have used and was sort of horrified to
see it used in this abstract. Well, and it's one
(21:20):
that noted Prima Donna Lucrezia also used. She did so
this is this is what this is study. Lucrezia wrote
her essay in nineteen fifteen, so we're approaching the hundred
year anniversary of people being jerks about ankles. So in
this study they write, unesthetic fat cankles where definition between
the caffeine ankle is impossible, are a frustrating aesthetic deformity deformity. Huh,
(21:47):
we're still referring to it as a deformity almost one
years later. Yeah, something that is completely normal and genetic
is being called a deformity. Yeah, and it And it
goes on to say that deformity which are exacerbated by
genetic conditioning and special resistance to diet, and this kind
(22:07):
of cankle remodeling is a safe and reproducible technique that's
particularly appreciated by the patient because again this is a
matter of genetics. You can't diet or exercise the shape
of your ankles away. Granted, ankle size can fluctuate with obesity. However,
(22:30):
a lot of times the shape of your ankles are
just the shape of your ankles that they look how
they look. And um, really quickly, going back to the
point of not knowing how many procedures are actually happening
every year, A lot of times doctors will report that
they get you know, a few dozen up to you know, say,
(22:52):
sixty year eighty patients a year. The fact though, that
it's getting so much news coverage and it's being reported
on as a trend is only going to send those
numbers up even more because it pathologizes it even more
and probably leads more women like me when I was
probably ten years old, to like look at my ankles
for the first time and think, oh, are they the
(23:13):
right shape? What if they are the right shape? Okay, Well,
so we've talked a lot about the trends in body shaming,
uh that have led to a lot of women seeking surgery,
seeking spot exercises for this. But let's let's throw out
some actual calf ankle region facts, shall we. Yes, First
and most important is it's not a medical condition. The
(23:37):
cankle is not a medical condition. Everyone has differently sized ankles,
largely due to genetics, and so if you do feel
that you have cankles, it's typically because of the gas
strock nemeius muscle, which is quote, you know, the belly
of the calf attaching lower on the leg to the
(23:59):
soleiest hustle above the achilles tendon, so the calf and
ankle don't look as differentiated. So it's all about how
the inside of your body is put together, which relies
on genetics. For the most part. There are some situations
in which ankles will swell, such as abnormal water retention, tendonitis, pregnancy,
(24:25):
achilles tendon injuries. There's also something called uh lepidema, which
is a rare disorder where you have fat deposits on
the lower extremities, and again with obesity. However, for the
most part, it's just how your body is built. Yeah,
and they talk about so one thing. I know. I
(24:45):
remember having this conversation in college with a woman who
longed for the very perky uh calf muscles of a
woman who was at the bus. She saw this woman
wearing heels and was like, God, I wish my calves
look like that is actually addressed in one of these
things that we read that in the same way that
you can have these muscles attached very low on your
(25:08):
legs so it looks like you have stocked your ankles,
you can also have it situated very high so that Okay, yes,
if you're a runner or you do exercise or whatever,
you're bound to have a more taught calf muscle that
is maybe more apparent when you're walking around in heels.
But part of that is genetic also, and just in
terms of how your muscles attached to your bones and
(25:30):
fat deposits, and yeah, imagine that. It's just it's the
way that you're made well. And that was something that
that Marie Claire writer Samantha marshall Um mentioned too, Like
at the beginning of her column about going to get
this LiPo section, she says, my mother has them, her
mother had them, and I too, was born with the
(25:51):
lower legs of a plow horse. So there's this acknowledgement of, well,
this is how my body is built, but it not
conforming to this very very specific and rather arbitrary beauty standard.
And again, like any exercise physiologists you talk to will say,
(26:12):
you cannot spot reduce them. Because there are still plenty
of columns and plenty of women's magazines and dubious websites
about ankle exercises, how to get those slender ankles for
the summertime to where your gladiator sandals with pride, but
you can't really do it. And again, it's not a
medical condition. Although if water retention is a problem, if
(26:33):
suddenly you have swollen ankles like you haven't had before,
you probably want to go see your doctor, but you
probably don't want to go see your plastic surgeon, right,
And And the way that I personally put things in
perspective sometimes just about stuff like this, not necessarily just
about cankles. But I imagine old advertisements from the turn
(26:56):
of the twentieth century and how we laugh those and
we say, this is so ridiculous. They're saying these terrible
things to women, and they're they're marketing these awful contraptions
that are just they're just treating something that doesn't need
treating with something that looks like a torture device. And
and I think about that, and then I think about
(27:17):
women's magazines and other websites and advertisements that we look
at today and how we just buy them. We we
fall for them hook line and sinker. And so for
me personally, that helps keep a lot of the rigamarole
that comes acrossing women's magazines in perspective. Yeah, I mean,
because this going back to the you know, the era
of the Gibson girl, and when we first started seeing
(27:39):
the ankle peek out from underneath hemlines. This really was
a made up beauty standard in the sense of, oh, well,
what do we think about it? What should it look like?
Because there are other things in terms of feminine beauty
standards and common markers of attractions, such as symmetry and
bright red ups and bright white eyes and all of
(28:01):
those kinds of things that you can, you know, get
into evolutionary biology of signals of fertility and health and
all of that to where it can make a little
bit more sense that we emphasize it so much, but
not with the ankles. The slender ankles are not a
sign of fertility or anything like that. So I wonder
(28:22):
that Caroline, if one thing that would help with all
of this, um, because I have a feeling that for
some people listening, they're gonna say ankles, who cares? But
for the people who feel this this is probably resonating
big time. Um, do we need to retire cankle? Is that?
I mean? Would that help? I think there were a
(28:44):
couple of sources that we looked at, UM, and I
think Autumn Whitfield Madrona was one of them who called
for or just called out the fact that we name
body parts imaginary body parts that we're unhappy with, things
like muffin top, basic be creating language for something that
we're unhappy with, which in turn makes us even unhappier
(29:06):
with it. And so, yeah, I think let's cankle is
such a mean, ugly word. Whether we're using it about
another woman or whether we're using it about ourselves, it's mean.
And so you know, I will I will take the
pledge to just call it an ankle. Yeah, it's just
an ankle. Also, to just not talk about other women's
(29:27):
body parts. Yeah, yeah, that would be helpful. Although for
one one last fun fact for our listeners before we
sign off, Caroline, can we mention our favorite nickname for
a body part that we found I believe from the
eighteenth century in reference to a large belly that I
totally want to bring back. The corporation. Wasn't that an
(29:50):
eighteenth century term? Yeah? It was either eighteenth or nine.
It was both known as a corporation and alternately a
bay window. Front of those are glorious down with big corporations.
I just I'm going to refer to my tummy as
either a corporation or a bay window. From now on. Well,
and according to the U. S. Supreme Court, corporations are
(30:11):
people too. So wat watch watch how you talk about
about it? Um. So now we want to hear from
our listeners about this ankle issue. Is this something that
resonates with you and guys, is this something that you
pay attention to it all? I feel like anecdotally, I
have heard guys talk about their calves, like the size
(30:33):
of calves, Guys who can't build up um much muscle
mass in their calves because like you talked about Caroline,
how the muscle attaches um. But I wonder if I
don't know, do guys do guys have cankles? Let us
know your thoughts Mom Stuff at how stuffworks dot com.
And you can also tweet us at Mom's Stuff podcast
or messages on Facebook. And we've got a couple of
(30:56):
messages to share with you when we come right back
from a quick break and now back to the show. Well,
I've got a Facebook message here from Rita and she writes,
I just listened to your podcast Curly Hair Conundrums, and
I was really pleased to learn the history behind all
(31:16):
of the effort I put into my hair. I'm originally
from Central America, and I suffered from straight discrimination and
harassment because of my tight, curly hair. As my hair
texture isn't common there. I never understood why, but all
of my classmates, friends, and even relatives looked down on
me because their hair was smooth and mine was not.
Even my dear grandma felt that way. She was the
(31:38):
first one to take me to get my first relax
or so I could look like her. Since that first time,
I've been spending a small fortune and countless hours making
my hair straight and smooth. I feel as I've accomplished
that and currently received compliments on how pretty and well
groomed my hair is all the time. After listening to
your podcast, I feel empowered to have curly hair. However,
(31:59):
societal x difectations worry me because I'm fresh out of
college looking for a job and having a transition period
is not a wise idea, but a part of me
that was the aim of ridicule is now a source
of empowerment. So thanks Rita, and love your hair and
all of its cruels. I have a letter here from
(32:19):
Mackenzie in regards to our entire weird Parental Psychology Week,
where we talked about Mama's boys and Daddy's girls. She said,
when you started talking about LGBT parents, I knew I
had to write in. I grew up at the intersection
of Daddy's Little Girl and Mackenzie has Two. Mommy's long
story short, My married Mormon parents got a divorce after
(32:41):
my mom came out as a lesbian and moved in
with her long time love. My dad remained in my
life and I always had a close relationship with him.
As many of your sources theorized, having a close relationship
with my dad taught me about how I wanted to
be treated by men. My dad thought I hung the
moon and my future husband would too. However, I learned
what a beautiful relationship looks like from my mom's. They
(33:03):
have always been crazy for each other and it shows.
Although they rarely so much as kiss in front of
their kids, their relationship is obviously so deep. They're equal
partners in all things. I knew that was the relationship
I wanted. Cut to today, and I'm engaged to a wonderful,
fiercely feminist man. He loves me the way my dad
taught me I should be loved, and we have a
(33:24):
relationship that mirrors the equality in my mom's relationship. Sorry
for the long note, I just had to share this
unique experience. Thanks for all the awesome podcasting. You ladies
help me make sense of the crazy world around me.
So thank you for your great letter, Mackenzie, and thanks
to everybody who's written into us. Mom Stuff at how
stuff works dot com is our email address, and again,
you can tweet us at mom stuff, podcasts or messages
(33:45):
on Facebook and for links to all of our social
media as well as all of our blogs, videos and podcasts,
including this one with our sources. In case you want
to learn more about the history of Trinkle's head on
over to stuff I'm Never Told You dot com for
(34:06):
more on this and thousands of other topics. Isn't how
stuff works dot com
Welcome to stuff mom never told you. From how Supports
dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen
and I'm Caroline. And Caroline, I have a story about
my mother to share to kick off this episode about tinkles,
(00:24):
the portmanteau of cath and ankle. So when a listener
wrote us about doing an episode on kinkles, I wanted
to immediately because I remembered this moment in my childhood,
crystallized in my brain for some reason of my dear mother,
(00:49):
well meaning, I'm sure telling me apropos of nothing. Kristen,
be glad you've got slender ankles like me. Oh. I
went to school with a girl I think her name
was Mary, and she had the fattest ankles, and I
just remember thinking I had no idea, like for the
(01:10):
first time I looked down and actually saw my ankles,
And ever since then, I've kind of never stopped looking
at them, terrified of the day that what if I
go home and Mom looks down and I've got Mary's ankles.
Oh No, I never knew that that was the thing
until my mother told me, huh yeah. I feel like
(01:33):
while the whole word cankle is sort of a new
invention relatively, I feel like that attitude about slender ankles
versus stocky ankles and what that means supposedly and how
it affects your attractiveness. I feel like that's been around
for quite a while. Yeah, and so we're gonna dig
into cankles and where this idea came from that in
(01:57):
order to have a fully attractive feminine figure, it involves
the slender ankle. So arbitrary, right, it does seem so arbitrary,
and yet women are getting plastic surgery in order to
achieve that slender ankle. Look. This was a story reported
(02:19):
on in fall two thousand fourteen from ABC News on
what they termed the boot bulge of women going under
the knife so they can fit into their fall boots.
I yeah. They talked to Matthew Shulman, who's a plastic
(02:40):
surgeon in New York City, and he said, Oh, it's
definitely a thing, he said, especially this time of year
when some women aren't able to wear the boots they want.
And I mean, I know that some women's calves are
shaped in such a way that they need a boot
with a bigger leg opening, But I had not heard
of this apparent epidemic of humans who uh don't like
(03:03):
their ankles enough that they're going to pursue plastic surgery. Yeah,
nor was this the first time that ABC News had
reported on this plastic surgery trend. In quotes, Um, I mean,
I wouldn't say that it's an epidemic proportions, because when
you talk to these plastic surgeons, they'll usually say, oh,
(03:25):
I get around fifty women in a year coming in
for it. But it's reported on as if it's an epidemic,
which only further leads to this question of like, but wow,
why why are we even talking about it? So the
first thing we wanted to uncover was how and when
(03:46):
slender ankles became a feminine beauty standard, because again, so
it's so far far. It's like at the opposite end
of of our bodies. Why why worry about them? Well,
I guess we worry about them now because we wear clothes,
or we wear a lack of clothes that showcase our
(04:07):
legs and ankles as opposed to back in the day
of I mean forever Victorian era, particularly when you're wearing
these huge dresses with bustles and everything, and so your
your legs and definitely your ankles are covered. So there
was almost no there's almost no social etiquette fashion rule
for what your legs, little on your ankles should look like,
(04:31):
right because no one saw them, right, So no big deal. Um.
But it's around the nineteen tins and moving into the
World War One era when hemlines inched above the ankle,
and so, like you said, Caroline, they're on display for
the very first time. And um, these hemlines were referred
to as the new crinoline or war crinoline, and this
(04:56):
above the ankle hemline was referred to as the new
crinoline or war crinoline um. And it was brought about
largely because more women were working due to World War One.
And of course the hemlines continue to rise through the
late nineteen twenties with a flapper air, although they would
(05:16):
then drop down again in the nineteen thirties, but still
by then the ankle was fully on display. Scandalous. So
you know, we still haven't hit on exactly why a
slender ankle is the ideal versus you know, why don't
we value uh stock your ankle or just like every
(05:37):
ankle is fine the way it is yeah, exactly, Um,
every ankle is sacred. Well, we looked at this book
called Ideal Images and Kinsey's Women by June mock Over
rhin Issh and she talks about the Gibson Girl who
came to us courtesy of illustrator Charles Dana Gibson. And
(05:57):
this particular woman had slender ankles wind shown, so she
when she as she lifted up her dress, she uh
displayed curvaceous calves that tapered down to a slender ankle.
And so this was one of the first pop culture
if you will, uh references to what an ankle maybe
(06:19):
should look like, right, because the Gibson girl was the
embodiment of idealized Edwardian beauty that then leading into the
early twentieth century, and so there every now and then
she would be shown in her bathing suit. And I
thought it was interesting to how that shape of the
(06:41):
shape lee calf leading into the more tapered ankles, sort
of the inverse of that idealized our glass figure up top.
And it also is significant that in the nineties as
legs became far more of a beauty focus because for
the first time we're really seeing them outside of the house.
(07:02):
This was also when the more curvaceous matron lee figure
that was hailed during the Edwardian era was replaced by
the stick straight, thin ideal of the Flapper era. So
we were priding ourselves in thinness more than before, and
(07:23):
that just trickled on down to our ankle. Sure did
trickle down. But even before the nineties, if you looked
to nineteen fifteen in the Gazette Times, there was an
article pinned by a ballerina prima donna Lucrezia Bori, titled
how to make your ankles really slender and shapely, And
(07:45):
she writes, or maybe she writes, I don't know, she
put her name to it, A heavy, shapeless ankle is
almost a deformity, and no exertion should be spared to
reduce its size. You can never associate dainty with a
woman who has large ankles. What so, immediately right out
of the gate, we have this perception. Well sure, because
(08:06):
I think it's the same kind of thing that we
hear about with women's slender wrists. There is this idea
of slender risks and slender ankles in particular, being associated
with feminine grace, daintiness, and that word dainty jumps out
because it does seem like we have this rather bizarre
(08:29):
association between not only slender ankles but also slender rists
and this idea of the dainty, graceful woman, particularly at
this time, which I mean she's kind of becoming more
of the new woman. But still it's uh, that's those
are the hallmarks of a woman and apparent isn't it
(08:51):
too kind of symbolic? And the fact that it's not
we want more of the the slender um foundation rather
than like a sturdy, solid foundation. Does it, perhaps, Caroline,
reflect the changing gender roles of the time. Oh yeah,
wanting women to take up less space both physically and
(09:12):
in the political social spheres. Yes, it could be. I
mean we might be getting a little too deep on it.
I like where we're going. Yes, well, there are also,
in addition to these recommended exercises for women to keep
their ankles slender, which in fact, you can't spot reduce
the size of your ankles. Ankle exercises, no matter what
(09:35):
Lucrezia Bori says, will not change the shape of your ankles.
There were also products to help women achieve this slender
ankle ideal, including things like ankle course's and that's spelled
with a K in Kardashian style. And there are also
shoes designed, such as the foot Saver, which were specifically
(09:58):
designed to uh supposedly keep women's ankles at least appearing
more slender. But I mean, this is to me, this,
this is insane to go back and uncover this history
of ankle slenderizing products because you think of things like
this as more of a modern you know, panic fueled
(10:19):
by women's magazines who were out to make everyone feel
bad about their bodies, you know, indirectly. But but no,
I mean there are these great but terrible old advertisements
featuring illustrations of these ankle courses that I'm sure by
the end of the day your foot would be completely
black and blue from wearing it. Well, And I mean
(10:40):
and also too, this was still being these ideas were
still being perpetuated in in women's magazines, you know, like
it's uh, It's just what's more astounding is that we're
getting these same messages today, right, So that leads us
up to the sword cankle, which when we talk about
(11:04):
cankles today, it is an insulting portmanteau referring to the
cankle ankle combo, implying that there is no definition between
the two, essentially from your knee to your foot. It's
it's relatively shapeless, right, But it actually got to start
as a different portmanteau that blended the words canker an
(11:26):
ankle to mean a foot store in a essay by
sci fi writer Don Webb. Yeah, and we got that
tidbit from a post by Autumn Whitefield Madronto over at
her fantastic blog The Beheld, in which she also wanted
to know where did this cankle thing come from? And
I was so surprised to learn that the source of
(11:51):
cankle ladies and gentlemen is none other than a two
thousand one cinematic masterpiece called Shallow How, Shallow How, starring
Gwyneth Paltrow, n Fat Suit, Jack Black, and Jason Alexander,
whose character is a jerk and always fat shaming one
(12:12):
of Paltrow's character, and he uses cankle to describe quote.
It's like the calf merged with the foot and cut
out the middleman, just continuing Jason Alexander's trend of playing
gross characters. But we can't blame Jason Alexander the person. Well, sure,
(12:32):
but my mother will because like she cannot watch a
Jason Alexander movie, TV show, anything after he played the
Griss character and pretty Woman. So Sally would absolutely blame
Jason Alexander the person. Yeah, he's definitely has been typecast
because when I learned that, I immediately thought I cannot
continue to use a word coined by George Castanza. That's
(12:57):
how on earth is that possible man who takes his
shirt off to go to the bathroom? Um? Well, in
two thousand three, so just two years after Shallow how
comes out, the word pops up in Glamour magazine, And
of course if it's in Glamour, it's probably another lady
magazines by then. Um, but Glamour rights that it's a
(13:17):
genetic fact. Some women have cankles, thick calflic ankles. And
so I feel like the sentiment there is a little
bit better because they're explaining that, hey, this is a
genetic thing, Like don't you know, this is not like
you need to do crunches for your feet or whatever
to get rid of it. It's just something that you
will deal with. But it's just unfortunate that in the process,
(13:38):
they really kind of went gung ho, adopting the word cankle. Yeah,
and automn at the Beheld goes on to describe how
quote by two thousand six, kinkles had made it into
Men's Health, Women's Health Newsweek, Skinny Bitch, a small library
of novels and un noteworthy books, and the weekly World News,
(13:59):
which wreck amended a magic spell to get rid of them,
which involved the new moon African violet and visualizing your
cankles going to a person of your choosing. It doesn't work.
It doesn't work. It doesn't work, trust me. And you
can't get rid of your belly fat that way either,
ladies and gentlemen. So clearly it didn't take too long
(14:20):
for cankle to enter its way into our almost everyday vernacular,
to the point now that this has gone from just
being considered a genetic fact of like, Okay, some women
have thicker ankles than others, No big deal, right, not
(14:40):
so much anymore, because the cankle has been completely pathologized.
And we're going to talk more about that when we
come right back from a quick break. All right, So
before the break, we were talking about kind of the
history of where a word cankle came from and where
(15:01):
we got this concept that the daintier ankle is the
better ankle. But we should definitely talk about how all
of those trends and all of those perceptions have led
us to where we are now, which is a state
of affairs in which many people, not a ton, but
many people have started to seek out plastic surgery for
(15:25):
what they consider to be stocky ankles. And regardless of
how many women are actually undergoing this plastic surgery, this
micro liposuction, it's still something that is brought up and
mentioned in every single news story about it. It says,
oh God, women are freaking out about their cankles and
(15:47):
so like bo suction um. And a lot of this
really started in terms of the broader media coverage in
two thousand nine when Gold's Gym launched its ankle awareness campaign.
So funny, right, And that led to all of these
(16:07):
media outlets being like, oh, cankles, what's going on? Oh
should you go to the gym? Oh? And ABC Health again, ABC?
What's does the C in ABC stand for cankle or something?
Because they're really into this. ABC Health covers this cankle
awareness campaign from Gold's gym. This ad campaign they had
and asked whether you know ladies or cankles the new
(16:30):
muffintop and even to the point that there article their
report on cankles. The lead was, while you were busy
worrying about muffin topping over the waistband of your jeans
or cottage cheese on your thighs, you should have been
fretting over the shapeliness of your ankles. Cankles or less
(16:53):
than smelt ankles are the thunder thighs of the new millennium.
What is wrong with them? What is wrong with them
that they are not only talking about cankles, fine, talk
about cankles. We're talking about cankles, but they're literally saying
you should have been fretting over the shapeliness of your ankles. Well,
and they also just went pretty much down the female
(17:14):
body like muffin top, oh, cellulite, oh, cankles, thunder thighs too,
just pulling the thunder thighs out of nowhere. I mean,
ABC Health is doing. We talked on the podcast a
lot about the policing of women's bodies. This is like
a insanely crystal clear version example of policing women's this
(17:36):
is the swat team. They let out the swat team
on that um. And then in two thousand eleven, Marie
Claire published an article on the cankle surgery trend trend
in quotes because it does lead to the question of
how many people does it take to form a trend
um because there aren't hard numbers on precisely how many
(18:00):
people are getting this LiPo section. Um. But this Maria
Claire article was really a first person report of this
woman who was dissatisfied with her ankles her whole life
and it really bothered her. And apparently a side note
she I hope this was made up, talked about how
her boyfriend would always make doodles of her with ugly
(18:22):
ankles um, which, honey, I don't think you need lipos section,
you know what I mean. But it's really just her
journey to getting this surgery. Yeah. And so the whole
deal with the surgery that she went through is that
if you're the best candidate for it, you can't have
ankles that are too muscly or bones that are too
(18:43):
big to get in the way. And it's all about
getting to the fat pads in that region of the leg.
The thing is it's gonna run you four to six
thousand dollars plus an extra seven hundred fifty bucks for
an anesthesiologist. And okay, so let's see you have the money,
you have the will. Now, as far as recovering from it,
(19:05):
it's sort of insane. Uh. Two months post surgery, this
woman still had a lot of swelling and numbness, but
it can take up to ten months to fully recover
from this, and she felt like it was worth it.
She lost an inch off both ankles and she was thrilled.
Apparently her boyfriend stopped with his rude doodles and that
(19:30):
was then the happy ending to her story. And what's
really interesting though, is the fact that with this procedure,
it's referred to as a micro liposuction because the plastic
surgeon will use a candida or tube that's roughly the
diameter of a ballpoint pin. And I want to emphasize
(19:51):
that just to get across how how how specific this
spot reduction is. Paying six thousand plus dollar lars to
have someone with that tiny of tube just suck out
some fat. And I don't want to delegitimize people's feelings
and insecurities about their angles, because we've clearly established that
(20:14):
we have been pointing at these things for a very
long time and saying, hey, if you don't have the
specific if you don't have the genetics to give you
the specific kind of ankle, then you should really feel unladylike.
But going to surgery is quite extreme. Yeah, And like
Kristen said, we we don't have exact stats on this
(20:37):
particular micro LiPo section. LiPo in general is the most
common plastic surgery in the US. UM, but plastic surgeons
definitely aren't in a rush to sort of woo women
away from getting their ankles done. Um. There was a
two thousand fourteen study called Laser Assisted Like Policis for
(20:58):
Cankle Remodeling It perspective study in thirty patients that looked
at the procedure, different ways of doing the procedure and
its success and everything like that. And uh, they used
a certain language choice, a word choice that I myself
would not have used and was sort of horrified to
see it used in this abstract. Well, and it's one
(21:20):
that noted Prima Donna Lucrezia also used. She did so
this is this is what this is study. Lucrezia wrote
her essay in nineteen fifteen, so we're approaching the hundred
year anniversary of people being jerks about ankles. So in
this study they write, unesthetic fat cankles where definition between
the caffeine ankle is impossible, are a frustrating aesthetic deformity deformity. Huh,
(21:47):
we're still referring to it as a deformity almost one
years later. Yeah, something that is completely normal and genetic
is being called a deformity. Yeah, and it And it
goes on to say that deformity which are exacerbated by
genetic conditioning and special resistance to diet, and this kind
(22:07):
of cankle remodeling is a safe and reproducible technique that's
particularly appreciated by the patient because again this is a
matter of genetics. You can't diet or exercise the shape
of your ankles away. Granted, ankle size can fluctuate with obesity. However,
(22:30):
a lot of times the shape of your ankles are
just the shape of your ankles that they look how
they look. And um, really quickly, going back to the
point of not knowing how many procedures are actually happening
every year, A lot of times doctors will report that
they get you know, a few dozen up to you know, say,
(22:52):
sixty year eighty patients a year. The fact though, that
it's getting so much news coverage and it's being reported
on as a trend is only going to send those
numbers up even more because it pathologizes it even more
and probably leads more women like me when I was
probably ten years old, to like look at my ankles
for the first time and think, oh, are they the
(23:13):
right shape? What if they are the right shape? Okay, Well,
so we've talked a lot about the trends in body shaming,
uh that have led to a lot of women seeking surgery,
seeking spot exercises for this. But let's let's throw out
some actual calf ankle region facts, shall we. Yes, First
and most important is it's not a medical condition. The
(23:37):
cankle is not a medical condition. Everyone has differently sized ankles,
largely due to genetics, and so if you do feel
that you have cankles, it's typically because of the gas
strock nemeius muscle, which is quote, you know, the belly
of the calf attaching lower on the leg to the
(23:59):
soleiest hustle above the achilles tendon, so the calf and
ankle don't look as differentiated. So it's all about how
the inside of your body is put together, which relies
on genetics. For the most part. There are some situations
in which ankles will swell, such as abnormal water retention, tendonitis, pregnancy,
(24:25):
achilles tendon injuries. There's also something called uh lepidema, which
is a rare disorder where you have fat deposits on
the lower extremities, and again with obesity. However, for the
most part, it's just how your body is built. Yeah,
and they talk about so one thing. I know. I
(24:45):
remember having this conversation in college with a woman who
longed for the very perky uh calf muscles of a
woman who was at the bus. She saw this woman
wearing heels and was like, God, I wish my calves
look like that is actually addressed in one of these
things that we read that in the same way that
you can have these muscles attached very low on your
(25:08):
legs so it looks like you have stocked your ankles,
you can also have it situated very high so that Okay, yes,
if you're a runner or you do exercise or whatever,
you're bound to have a more taught calf muscle that
is maybe more apparent when you're walking around in heels.
But part of that is genetic also, and just in
terms of how your muscles attached to your bones and
(25:30):
fat deposits, and yeah, imagine that. It's just it's the
way that you're made well. And that was something that
that Marie Claire writer Samantha marshall Um mentioned too, Like
at the beginning of her column about going to get
this LiPo section, she says, my mother has them, her
mother had them, and I too, was born with the
(25:51):
lower legs of a plow horse. So there's this acknowledgement of, well,
this is how my body is built, but it not
conforming to this very very specific and rather arbitrary beauty standard.
And again, like any exercise physiologists you talk to will say,
(26:12):
you cannot spot reduce them. Because there are still plenty
of columns and plenty of women's magazines and dubious websites
about ankle exercises, how to get those slender ankles for
the summertime to where your gladiator sandals with pride, but
you can't really do it. And again, it's not a
medical condition. Although if water retention is a problem, if
(26:33):
suddenly you have swollen ankles like you haven't had before,
you probably want to go see your doctor, but you
probably don't want to go see your plastic surgeon, right,
And And the way that I personally put things in
perspective sometimes just about stuff like this, not necessarily just
about cankles. But I imagine old advertisements from the turn
(26:56):
of the twentieth century and how we laugh those and
we say, this is so ridiculous. They're saying these terrible
things to women, and they're they're marketing these awful contraptions
that are just they're just treating something that doesn't need
treating with something that looks like a torture device. And
and I think about that, and then I think about
(27:17):
women's magazines and other websites and advertisements that we look
at today and how we just buy them. We we
fall for them hook line and sinker. And so for
me personally, that helps keep a lot of the rigamarole
that comes acrossing women's magazines in perspective. Yeah, I mean,
because this going back to the you know, the era
of the Gibson girl, and when we first started seeing
(27:39):
the ankle peek out from underneath hemlines. This really was
a made up beauty standard in the sense of, oh, well,
what do we think about it? What should it look like?
Because there are other things in terms of feminine beauty
standards and common markers of attractions, such as symmetry and
bright red ups and bright white eyes and all of
(28:01):
those kinds of things that you can, you know, get
into evolutionary biology of signals of fertility and health and
all of that to where it can make a little
bit more sense that we emphasize it so much, but
not with the ankles. The slender ankles are not a
sign of fertility or anything like that. So I wonder
(28:22):
that Caroline, if one thing that would help with all
of this, um, because I have a feeling that for
some people listening, they're gonna say ankles, who cares? But
for the people who feel this this is probably resonating
big time. Um, do we need to retire cankle? Is that?
I mean? Would that help? I think there were a
(28:44):
couple of sources that we looked at, UM, and I
think Autumn Whitfield Madrona was one of them who called
for or just called out the fact that we name
body parts imaginary body parts that we're unhappy with, things
like muffin top, basic be creating language for something that
we're unhappy with, which in turn makes us even unhappier
(29:06):
with it. And so, yeah, I think let's cankle is
such a mean, ugly word. Whether we're using it about
another woman or whether we're using it about ourselves, it's mean.
And so you know, I will I will take the
pledge to just call it an ankle. Yeah, it's just
an ankle. Also, to just not talk about other women's
(29:27):
body parts. Yeah, yeah, that would be helpful. Although for
one one last fun fact for our listeners before we
sign off, Caroline, can we mention our favorite nickname for
a body part that we found I believe from the
eighteenth century in reference to a large belly that I
totally want to bring back. The corporation. Wasn't that an
(29:50):
eighteenth century term? Yeah? It was either eighteenth or nine.
It was both known as a corporation and alternately a
bay window. Front of those are glorious down with big corporations.
I just I'm going to refer to my tummy as
either a corporation or a bay window. From now on. Well,
and according to the U. S. Supreme Court, corporations are
(30:11):
people too. So wat watch watch how you talk about
about it? Um. So now we want to hear from
our listeners about this ankle issue. Is this something that
resonates with you and guys, is this something that you
pay attention to it all? I feel like anecdotally, I
have heard guys talk about their calves, like the size
(30:33):
of calves, Guys who can't build up um much muscle
mass in their calves because like you talked about Caroline,
how the muscle attaches um. But I wonder if I
don't know, do guys do guys have cankles? Let us
know your thoughts Mom Stuff at how stuffworks dot com.
And you can also tweet us at Mom's Stuff podcast
or messages on Facebook. And we've got a couple of
(30:56):
messages to share with you when we come right back
from a quick break and now back to the show. Well,
I've got a Facebook message here from Rita and she writes,
I just listened to your podcast Curly Hair Conundrums, and
I was really pleased to learn the history behind all
(31:16):
of the effort I put into my hair. I'm originally
from Central America, and I suffered from straight discrimination and
harassment because of my tight, curly hair. As my hair
texture isn't common there. I never understood why, but all
of my classmates, friends, and even relatives looked down on
me because their hair was smooth and mine was not.
Even my dear grandma felt that way. She was the
(31:38):
first one to take me to get my first relax
or so I could look like her. Since that first time,
I've been spending a small fortune and countless hours making
my hair straight and smooth. I feel as I've accomplished
that and currently received compliments on how pretty and well
groomed my hair is all the time. After listening to
your podcast, I feel empowered to have curly hair. However,
(31:59):
societal x difectations worry me because I'm fresh out of
college looking for a job and having a transition period
is not a wise idea, but a part of me
that was the aim of ridicule is now a source
of empowerment. So thanks Rita, and love your hair and
all of its cruels. I have a letter here from
(32:19):
Mackenzie in regards to our entire weird Parental Psychology Week,
where we talked about Mama's boys and Daddy's girls. She said,
when you started talking about LGBT parents, I knew I
had to write in. I grew up at the intersection
of Daddy's Little Girl and Mackenzie has Two. Mommy's long
story short, My married Mormon parents got a divorce after
(32:41):
my mom came out as a lesbian and moved in
with her long time love. My dad remained in my
life and I always had a close relationship with him.
As many of your sources theorized, having a close relationship
with my dad taught me about how I wanted to
be treated by men. My dad thought I hung the
moon and my future husband would too. However, I learned
what a beautiful relationship looks like from my mom's. They
(33:03):
have always been crazy for each other and it shows.
Although they rarely so much as kiss in front of
their kids, their relationship is obviously so deep. They're equal
partners in all things. I knew that was the relationship
I wanted. Cut to today, and I'm engaged to a wonderful,
fiercely feminist man. He loves me the way my dad
taught me I should be loved, and we have a
(33:24):
relationship that mirrors the equality in my mom's relationship. Sorry
for the long note, I just had to share this
unique experience. Thanks for all the awesome podcasting. You ladies
help me make sense of the crazy world around me.
So thank you for your great letter, Mackenzie, and thanks
to everybody who's written into us. Mom Stuff at how
stuff works dot com is our email address, and again,
you can tweet us at mom stuff, podcasts or messages
(33:45):
on Facebook and for links to all of our social
media as well as all of our blogs, videos and podcasts,
including this one with our sources. In case you want
to learn more about the history of Trinkle's head on
over to stuff I'm Never Told You dot com for
(34:06):
more on this and thousands of other topics. Isn't how
stuff works dot com
Stuff Mom Never Told You News
Hosts And Creators
Anney Reese
Samantha McVey
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.