September 20, 2010 • 22 mins
Chivalry was originally the code of behavior for medieval knights; today, the term is synonymous with courteous male behavior towards women. But is modern chivalry obsolete? Molly and Cristen ponder chivalry, courtesy and feminism in this episode.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.
It's ready. Are you welcome to stump Mom Never told you?
From house top works dot com. Hello, welcome to the podcast.
This is Molly and I'm Kristin Kristen. If you're on
(00:21):
a first date with a fellow, what expectations do you
have about certain aspects of his manner towards you on
the date? Do you expect him to open the door
for you? Well, you know, I don't. I don't. I
don't want to say that I expect him to to
open or not open a door for me. If he
(00:42):
happens to open a door for me, then that's then
that's nice and I will walk through it. You're not
gonna make a mental note if he just walks in
without hole in the door for you, If he walks
in ahead of me and makes no attempt to hold
a door open. But yeah, I would find that rude,
a little bit rude. Um. So let's say, now the
night goes on and you're chilly in the restaurant, should
(01:05):
he give you his coat? Or not? Um? I mean,
am I visibly shivering? Oh? Well, well, you you know
I think he'd offer, maybe, so that you'd expect that,
I see. I hate. I hate saying all these expectations. Um,
if I you know, if I'm uncomfortable, I would I
wouldn't necessarily up put it this way. I wouldn't necessarily
(01:26):
expect him to give me his coat, because he might
not even be wearing a coat. Um, but I would
expect him to acknowledge my discomfort. That's a good way
to put it. Okay. Um, the waiter comes and he
just orders a bottle of wine without asking, how's that
going to go over? Not well? Not well? No, I
(01:48):
would like him. I would. I would expect for him
to be interested in my taste as well. You know,
you don't want him saying two steaks and two lobsters
right here? I mean, well, I'd be totally fine with
that order. Uh. I would again expect him to be
interested in what in my palate. All right, so he's ordered,
(02:12):
Let's say he's order the two steaks and the two
lobsters just for the sake of argument. Then the check
comes and he goes, let me go have season this one.
I would say, my friend, you ordered two steaks and
two lobsters. So I think that, Um, well, no, I
wouldn't say anything. If he said let's go have these,
I'd say all right, but I would do it be grudgingly.
(02:36):
You know, you'd make a mental note. I would make
a big mental note. Now, Chris and I tried to
pick extremes because I was just trying to give a
few examples of what people consider to be chivalry and
sort of an old fashioned sense of the word. You know,
if you think about mad Men are favorite show. The
guys are always ordering the food for the women. They're
(02:58):
giving coats away, are opening doors, They're standing and sitting
down when people exit an inter um, they take the check.
There would never be a question of I don't even
know what women had in their pocketbooks back then. It
certainly wasn't money cigarette cigarettes. True. Um, but there is
sort of this very old fashioned sense that the man
(03:19):
was in charge of the lady's comfort the whole night through. Yes,
and this behavior has become known as chivalry, even though
that's not the traditional original sense of the word. Yeah,
if we go back to the days of nights, okay,
(03:40):
and I h s yes, back to feudal feudal times,
my favorite time test of times, really, this is coming
from Encyclopedia Britannica. Um. Chivalry, of course is associated with knighthood,
and essentially it is the honorable and courteous conduct expected
of a night everything. Yeah, everything from like what they're
(04:02):
wearing too, how they hang their sword at night. Yeah,
and of course how they would treat women folk, which
was not actually schalry. It was sort of a subset
of salery called courtly love. Yes, courtly love practice during
the Middle Ages, which was it was kind of yeah,
sort of an addendum to the code of chivalry. And uh,
(04:25):
a lot of these rules of courtly love, Um, we're
actually written down there were you know, all the troubadours
of the day were expected to memorize them all, and
all the writers are writing tales of how these nights
exhibited courtly love. The rules as recorded by Frenchmen actually
have very little to do with what we consider chivalry today. Yeah.
(04:47):
These are more just kind of basic facts about love,
such I don't even think for facts I don't agree with. Yeah, yeah,
you know what I mean, just sort of a little
sayings like he who is not jealous cannot love. When
made public, love rarely endors. It is well known that
love is always increasing or decreasing. But no, nowhere in
(05:08):
here does it say he should always open the door
for his fair maidens. No, it says things like boys
do not love until they arrive at the age of maturity.
So I think that it's really interesting that those were
the Middle Ages rules of love. UM. But because of
that association with knights and with the concept of chivalry, UM,
(05:31):
chivalry has evolved the ages just to mean courtesy. Yeah,
that's sort of what UM people mean. In a general sense,
it's courtesy. But because the knights, for the traditional practitioners
of it usually means courtesy towards a woman because she
is a woman. And that's why, you know, a lot
of women today have a problem with so called acts
(05:55):
of chivalry because you know, with women today, we are
we're strong, and we don't necessarily need to be treated
like delicate flowers who can't make it across the road
on our own. Um. So thanks, but no thanks. I
can open the door, I can pay the tab, I
can you know, I can can do whatever a man
can do. And so that's why it's it's sort of
(06:16):
a complicated concept today. And that's why the question we're
gonna ask is should ship all Redie has its has
its time coming gone? Has its time coming gone? And
and Molly you were saying though, that this question is
not a new one at all. Know, when I started
researching this um, you know, I obviously expected a lot
(06:36):
to find a lot of sources that traced problems with
silry to second wave feminism, to those strides when we're
making in entering the workplace. But this question, you know,
the earliest instance that I've found of it being asked
was nineteen eleven in the New York Times, where some
man wrote a op ed that said, basically, if if
women want the right to vote, then I'm sure not
(06:59):
gonna sure not going to open any more doors for them.
Gali g gali gali g and uh. And now today
there was a Washington Post poll um not too long
ago found that eight out of ten Americans say that
women today are treated with less chivalry than in the past.
(07:21):
You know, and I would kind of agree with that.
I mean, if we're thinking about chivalry in terms of that,
you know, mad Men's style over the top women must
be taken care of moment to moment um, then sure, yeah,
we we aren't, you know, we aren't coddled kind of
like we used to be. But here's where we're gonna
get into some fine lines, Kristen, because you know, you
(07:43):
and I and we should note we are good Southern
girls born and raised in the South. We're bringing you
this very podcast from Atlanta, Georgia right here down in
Dan in Atlanta, Georgia's right, and uh, we have both
talked about how, despite the good feminist we are believing
in equality of every sort, that if we go on
(08:05):
a date, a first date, and the guy doesn't open
the door, we might make a mental note. Yeah maybe, yeah,
I mean, it's just you know, there are there are
certain behaviors that um that you do become accustomed to.
For instance, in our building that that Molly and I
work in. If you walk into an elevator and it's
(08:25):
you and a guy, you know that when the elevator
hits the lobby, you walk out first, exactly because otherwise
you you will have some like face down where he
will he will wait for you to get out of
the elevator, so you just you know, you just cruise
on exactly. If you're on public transportation, it's pretty much
a given that in this area, a man will give
(08:47):
up his seat for you. Yeah, so the question is,
you know, are those are those men uh demeeting us
by saying, you know, oh well she can't stand for
the duration of the strain trip. No. I don't think
that's the case of all that all. I think that
they're just trying to be to be polite and to
be courteous. I don't know that it's necessarily keeping me back,
(09:08):
and heck, I don't mind being the first person on
the elevator. All right, But that's the question we're going
to have to grapple with christ and I am really
interested to see if we're more willing to accept those
forms of politeness than maybe some of our other listeners are.
I do have one friend that um, when she's on
buses and a man offers her a seat, she won't
(09:28):
take it. She just will not take it. And I'd
be like, take that seat if you're not going to
take it, and uh So it's it's a really fine line,
and there are going to be critics of of us
who will say, well, you're trying to have it both ways.
You want to be equal in the workplace, but you
want someone to open the door for you can you
really have it both ways? And there are a lot
of trend pieces about how as crazy women are really
(09:52):
screwing up the dating world by having these contradictory impulses,
the impulse to be seen as a complete equal, uh,
in terms of the dinner conversation, in terms of our
earning power should we get married. Uh, you know, we
want to keep our last name. We've got all these ideals.
But the end of the night, you know, I'm not
going to turn down at dinner that someone else is
(10:13):
paying for, despite that earning power that I want you
to be so very aware of. And it's it is contradictory,
and it's but you know, it's it's somehow still feels right.
And I don't know how to reconcile that. Well, yeah, exactly,
and um, and I think it's for for our generation
of women, it is particularly tricky. And I'm gonna I'm
(10:35):
gonna quote now from uh, from an article by Tracy
Clark Florey in Salon in which she's kind of approaching
this question of the concept of modern day chivalry, if
you will, in dating and she takes on this uh,
this piece that was written by woman ks him a Witz,
(10:58):
who argues that young men are exposed to a series
of quote misques, cross purposes, and half conscious contradictory female
expectations that are alternately proudly egalitarian and coyly traditional. They
want you to open the door. They don't want you
to open the door, but they do want you to
pay for dinner. They want chivalry one moment and evolved
(11:19):
egalitarianism the next. And while I don't think that it's
you know, that's true one percent of the time, I
think that it is you know, she does make a
decent point there. I think we've already between the two
has probably sent out a lot of mixed signals in
terms of what we'd expect or what we and like
you said at the beginning, Christian expect is it wrong?
Is the wrong word? I don't think you'd go into
(11:41):
any date thinking, man, if he doesn't open the car
door for me, minus five points thanks, um. But you know,
it's just it's something you become aware of, and it
does become weird when it's uh twisted up in your
ideas of what common courtesy is. So I do understand
how that, um, there can be sort of that that
(12:02):
confusion among men. But what I was really kind of
disturbed by was that Clark Flory says that these men,
because we're giving them so many crazy cues, are practicing
something called dating Darwinism, in which they become sort of
the biggest jerks they can be to make the point
that they're not treating you any uh, with any special
(12:25):
respect at all. Yeah, they're basically turning there. It's like
the chivalry backlash basically where they just kind of treat
us like dirt and and we were like a dude.
I mean, if we want, you know, this is again
it's it's gonna be kind of tricky to navigate. But
if we do want to be seen as equal to guys,
then are we just one of the guys. So here's
(12:49):
my big question, though, Molly, we keep we keep interchanging
chivalry and courtesy and civility. Uh So, so my question
here is maybe we shouldn't be asking so much whether
or not chivalry should die, but whether chivalry and in
its true form and its actual definition, what what chivalry
(13:14):
really means, if it even exists today, or whether what
we're talking about is just social courtesy. Uh, you know,
these these kinds of social patterns that we've just kind
of adopted in terms of male female relations, you know,
sort of the knee jerk, open a door, knee jerk,
(13:34):
pick up a tab, all of those kind of things
that are being challenged, you know, as as we evolve,
you know, um, and especially in in the dating context,
is that whole landscape continues to change because it is
radically changed, I will say for our generation in particular.
(13:55):
So maybe maybe chivalry isn't even even the question anymore.
It's just such a loaded word. I mean, it's exactly
when we've had conversations about feminism. It's so loaded. And
if you go back to the original meaning, and if
it's about nights, you know, wearing certain you know, coats
of armor on certain days, it's not relevant. I think
when people get upset or concerned about how courtesy relates
(14:19):
to feminism is when it seems to be some sort
of special act that acknowledges gender. And I think that
maybe what we women don't do is look at the
ways in which we are in return courteous to men. Uh,
perhaps in a dating situation or on a train. I mean,
if if a young father comes on the train and
(14:40):
he's got like two kids, and he's trying to wrestle
them into place he can have the seat. It's not
a matter of the woman always wins. It's more a
matter of you know, I think that people see showry
is so one sided, and that's why it seems unfair
to put it in context with feminism, whereas there are
things that we do in return that maybe just aren't.
(15:01):
I mean, we put on the charm on our dinner dates,
we take showers, throw on some makeup. I'm not saying
that those are the equal acts to opening a door,
but I just wonder if because chalbry has become this
thing that men do, we overlook the things that women
do in return, be it cooking dinner one night, picking
up the grocery. Yeah, and goodness, Molly, I mean you
(15:23):
and I both opened doors for people. You know. It's
just it's something that that it just it happens now
as as a natural byproduct, whoever becauess the door first,
better opened the door door. Yeah, exactly, common courtesy. Here's
maybe they should do this to just create equality and dating,
every restaurant that might ever be used as a date
(15:43):
location should have either revolving doors or the double doors
I like the double doors because first one person opens
and the person goes in, and they get to the
second door first, and then they opened the door, but
the other person WHOA. I'm guessing the expense of putting
(16:03):
double doors in every place that might be used as
a dating locale would be would be excessive. But I
do like the double doors because that way everyone gets
to participate. Well, here's the thing. You know, you and
I have been hashing this out, and I think this
might be a good opportunity to toss in a male
perspective in this UM. This is from Men's News Daily,
(16:27):
which Molly and I subscribe to. Not really UM, but
the the This is Men's Wu's Aliens, an article kind
of hashing out UM for for men. This question of
whether or not, Yeah, whether or not chivalry and just
general politeness is really something that that guys need to
(16:48):
keep doing. And he says the very point of chivalry
is that it's a man's way of showing respect for
a woman by taking care of her physical safety, whether
by fending off an attacker simply pulling out a chair
for a woman. The traditional way to repay chivalry is
not by being chivalrous back but to repay the man
by being sweet or cooking some food for him. Chivalry
(17:10):
is therefore an intrinsic part of our traditional gender roles,
and the concept is impossible to preserve if you're for
a society where men and women have exactly the same roles.
And I think that is a pretty good point. Yeah,
I mean, I think that the biggest risk that we're
running here, Kristen is people will write in and say
that we're trying to have it both ways, that we
want all this equality, but we still don't mind taking
(17:33):
seats when they're offered to us. Yeah, And I mean
that's that's one thing. Like we said, we're from the South,
maybe we just um have different ideas of politeness um
and what courtesy is. And I don't see those I
don't always see a gender reason for why I'm being
offered a seat, even though that might be in the
person who's offering itce mind. But but if but if
(17:55):
someone pulls that seat out for you different and says,
take a load off those tiny tiny feet, take a
load all those gams, then yeah, I might I might
get a little skis out. I mean, he's he's saying
that if we're going to call it chivalry, there's gonna
be gender roles associated with it if we call it courtesy.
(18:18):
Are those gender roles still there? And is it as
potentially offensive? Yeah, I say, maybe not as much. Maybe
it's all maybe maybe we're just arguing semantics. Maybe it's
just all you know, problems with vocabulary. Chivalry is just
such a like you said, such a loaded term that
um that it's it will always at some point be
(18:41):
perceived as negative. Yeah, in some light, I don't know.
We don't know. I mean, we didn't start this podcast
with any answer in mind as if that is not
abundantly clear, and there was no expert source out there
to tell us what the right or wrong answer was.
That's why, that's kind of why we did it. Was
just to get people's viewpoints on it. And we are
(19:04):
asking all of you to write in to mom stuff
at how stuff or dot com. Are we are irrationalizing
if we're if we're good feminists, should we you know,
go Dutch? Should we pick up tabs more than we
might now? Or is it just not a big deal
if a guy opens a car door and guys, I mean,
are are we sending out all of these mixed signals
(19:26):
of like yeah, open the store but not that door,
and or pay for this but don't order that. You know,
is this is it? It's just a huge chivalrous mess
out there that you have to dive into as well.
We want to know your thoughts because clearly we're in
the same miss as you are. So email us at
(19:49):
Mom's Stuff at how stuff works dot com and let's
work this out together. Yes, I think with with all
our listeners we can we can nail down the hill,
right thing. Really, if you can do something, all right?
So let's read some listener mail. This one is from
Andy and he was writing about the Musical Instrument podcast.
(20:11):
It was called why I Don't always play the harp.
Andy writes, I recall the reason I started playing the cello.
In the third grade, the local high school orchestra came
and played for our class. It was then that I
discovered the girl who'd been my babysitter for years was
the first chair of the cello section. After a little concert,
she came over and talked to me about all the
awards she'd won and how she was going to be
getting a scholarship to play music. Of course, it didn't
(20:33):
hurt that she played a solo of the Star Wars
theme song from my friends and me. I thought she
was so cool that the very next week I signed
up for orchestra class and went straight for the cello.
Years later, once I was in high school and then college,
there was always a woman a chair head stopping me
from getting the top spot. So the cello is my
vote for the most gender neutral strange instrument. Supposedly, it's
traditionally a masculine choice, but all of the cellist I've
(20:55):
ever met were incredibly talented women. Well, I've got an
email here from Brian, and this is about our podcast
on your Brain. On a breakup, he says, a few
years ago, I went through a divorce. I decided that
rather than developing an alcohol problem, to deal with the depression,
I would start learning the Russian language. Whenever I'd get
(21:18):
into a funk, I would fire up my laptop and study, study, study.
After a time, the funk lessened, but I continued studying,
eventually making friends with some Russians, one of which became
my girlfriend and then my wife. So that's a nice story,
isn't it amazing how distractions can lead to different kinds
(21:40):
of distractions, and Brian says, thanks for all the hard
work to you and everybody at how stuff works, and
thank you Brian. And speaking of how stuff works, you
can email us at that domain It's Mom's Stuff at
how stuff works dot com. You can also head over
to Facebook and like us, leave calm and ask advice
(22:02):
whatever you please um And then you can also join
our Twitter conversation we are mom Stuff podcast over there,
and then finally you can head over to our blog
It's stuff mo'n ever told you and you can find
it at how stuff works dot com. For more on
(22:22):
this and thousands of other topics, is it how stuff
works dot com. Want more how stuff works, check out
our blogs on the house stuff works dot com home page.
Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera.
It's ready, are you
Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.
It's ready. Are you welcome to stump Mom Never told you?
From house top works dot com. Hello, welcome to the podcast.
This is Molly and I'm Kristin Kristen. If you're on
(00:21):
a first date with a fellow, what expectations do you
have about certain aspects of his manner towards you on
the date? Do you expect him to open the door
for you? Well, you know, I don't. I don't. I
don't want to say that I expect him to to
open or not open a door for me. If he
(00:42):
happens to open a door for me, then that's then
that's nice and I will walk through it. You're not
gonna make a mental note if he just walks in
without hole in the door for you, If he walks
in ahead of me and makes no attempt to hold
a door open. But yeah, I would find that rude,
a little bit rude. Um. So let's say, now the
night goes on and you're chilly in the restaurant, should
(01:05):
he give you his coat? Or not? Um? I mean,
am I visibly shivering? Oh? Well, well, you you know
I think he'd offer, maybe, so that you'd expect that,
I see. I hate. I hate saying all these expectations. Um,
if I you know, if I'm uncomfortable, I would I
wouldn't necessarily up put it this way. I wouldn't necessarily
(01:26):
expect him to give me his coat, because he might
not even be wearing a coat. Um, but I would
expect him to acknowledge my discomfort. That's a good way
to put it. Okay. Um, the waiter comes and he
just orders a bottle of wine without asking, how's that
going to go over? Not well? Not well? No, I
(01:48):
would like him. I would. I would expect for him
to be interested in my taste as well. You know,
you don't want him saying two steaks and two lobsters
right here? I mean, well, I'd be totally fine with
that order. Uh. I would again expect him to be
interested in what in my palate. All right, so he's ordered,
(02:12):
Let's say he's order the two steaks and the two
lobsters just for the sake of argument. Then the check
comes and he goes, let me go have season this one.
I would say, my friend, you ordered two steaks and
two lobsters. So I think that, Um, well, no, I
wouldn't say anything. If he said let's go have these,
I'd say all right, but I would do it be grudgingly.
(02:36):
You know, you'd make a mental note. I would make
a big mental note. Now, Chris and I tried to
pick extremes because I was just trying to give a
few examples of what people consider to be chivalry and
sort of an old fashioned sense of the word. You know,
if you think about mad Men are favorite show. The
guys are always ordering the food for the women. They're
(02:58):
giving coats away, are opening doors, They're standing and sitting
down when people exit an inter um, they take the check.
There would never be a question of I don't even
know what women had in their pocketbooks back then. It
certainly wasn't money cigarette cigarettes. True. Um, but there is
sort of this very old fashioned sense that the man
(03:19):
was in charge of the lady's comfort the whole night through. Yes,
and this behavior has become known as chivalry, even though
that's not the traditional original sense of the word. Yeah,
if we go back to the days of nights, okay,
(03:40):
and I h s yes, back to feudal feudal times,
my favorite time test of times, really, this is coming
from Encyclopedia Britannica. Um. Chivalry, of course is associated with knighthood,
and essentially it is the honorable and courteous conduct expected
of a night everything. Yeah, everything from like what they're
(04:02):
wearing too, how they hang their sword at night. Yeah,
and of course how they would treat women folk, which
was not actually schalry. It was sort of a subset
of salery called courtly love. Yes, courtly love practice during
the Middle Ages, which was it was kind of yeah,
sort of an addendum to the code of chivalry. And uh,
(04:25):
a lot of these rules of courtly love, Um, we're
actually written down there were you know, all the troubadours
of the day were expected to memorize them all, and
all the writers are writing tales of how these nights
exhibited courtly love. The rules as recorded by Frenchmen actually
have very little to do with what we consider chivalry today. Yeah.
(04:47):
These are more just kind of basic facts about love,
such I don't even think for facts I don't agree with. Yeah, yeah,
you know what I mean, just sort of a little
sayings like he who is not jealous cannot love. When
made public, love rarely endors. It is well known that
love is always increasing or decreasing. But no, nowhere in
(05:08):
here does it say he should always open the door
for his fair maidens. No, it says things like boys
do not love until they arrive at the age of maturity.
So I think that it's really interesting that those were
the Middle Ages rules of love. UM. But because of
that association with knights and with the concept of chivalry, UM,
(05:31):
chivalry has evolved the ages just to mean courtesy. Yeah,
that's sort of what UM people mean. In a general sense,
it's courtesy. But because the knights, for the traditional practitioners
of it usually means courtesy towards a woman because she
is a woman. And that's why, you know, a lot
of women today have a problem with so called acts
(05:55):
of chivalry because you know, with women today, we are
we're strong, and we don't necessarily need to be treated
like delicate flowers who can't make it across the road
on our own. Um. So thanks, but no thanks. I
can open the door, I can pay the tab, I
can you know, I can can do whatever a man
can do. And so that's why it's it's sort of
(06:16):
a complicated concept today. And that's why the question we're
gonna ask is should ship all Redie has its has
its time coming gone? Has its time coming gone? And
and Molly you were saying though, that this question is
not a new one at all. Know, when I started
researching this um, you know, I obviously expected a lot
(06:36):
to find a lot of sources that traced problems with
silry to second wave feminism, to those strides when we're
making in entering the workplace. But this question, you know,
the earliest instance that I've found of it being asked
was nineteen eleven in the New York Times, where some
man wrote a op ed that said, basically, if if
women want the right to vote, then I'm sure not
(06:59):
gonna sure not going to open any more doors for them.
Gali g gali gali g and uh. And now today
there was a Washington Post poll um not too long
ago found that eight out of ten Americans say that
women today are treated with less chivalry than in the past.
(07:21):
You know, and I would kind of agree with that.
I mean, if we're thinking about chivalry in terms of that,
you know, mad Men's style over the top women must
be taken care of moment to moment um, then sure, yeah,
we we aren't, you know, we aren't coddled kind of
like we used to be. But here's where we're gonna
get into some fine lines, Kristen, because you know, you
(07:43):
and I and we should note we are good Southern
girls born and raised in the South. We're bringing you
this very podcast from Atlanta, Georgia right here down in
Dan in Atlanta, Georgia's right, and uh, we have both
talked about how, despite the good feminist we are believing
in equality of every sort, that if we go on
(08:05):
a date, a first date, and the guy doesn't open
the door, we might make a mental note. Yeah maybe, yeah,
I mean, it's just you know, there are there are
certain behaviors that um that you do become accustomed to.
For instance, in our building that that Molly and I
work in. If you walk into an elevator and it's
(08:25):
you and a guy, you know that when the elevator
hits the lobby, you walk out first, exactly because otherwise
you you will have some like face down where he
will he will wait for you to get out of
the elevator, so you just you know, you just cruise
on exactly. If you're on public transportation, it's pretty much
a given that in this area, a man will give
(08:47):
up his seat for you. Yeah, so the question is,
you know, are those are those men uh demeeting us
by saying, you know, oh well she can't stand for
the duration of the strain trip. No. I don't think
that's the case of all that all. I think that
they're just trying to be to be polite and to
be courteous. I don't know that it's necessarily keeping me back,
(09:08):
and heck, I don't mind being the first person on
the elevator. All right, But that's the question we're going
to have to grapple with christ and I am really
interested to see if we're more willing to accept those
forms of politeness than maybe some of our other listeners are.
I do have one friend that um, when she's on
buses and a man offers her a seat, she won't
(09:28):
take it. She just will not take it. And I'd
be like, take that seat if you're not going to
take it, and uh So it's it's a really fine line,
and there are going to be critics of of us
who will say, well, you're trying to have it both ways.
You want to be equal in the workplace, but you
want someone to open the door for you can you
really have it both ways? And there are a lot
of trend pieces about how as crazy women are really
(09:52):
screwing up the dating world by having these contradictory impulses,
the impulse to be seen as a complete equal, uh,
in terms of the dinner conversation, in terms of our
earning power should we get married. Uh, you know, we
want to keep our last name. We've got all these ideals.
But the end of the night, you know, I'm not
going to turn down at dinner that someone else is
(10:13):
paying for, despite that earning power that I want you
to be so very aware of. And it's it is contradictory,
and it's but you know, it's it's somehow still feels right.
And I don't know how to reconcile that. Well, yeah, exactly,
and um, and I think it's for for our generation
of women, it is particularly tricky. And I'm gonna I'm
(10:35):
gonna quote now from uh, from an article by Tracy
Clark Florey in Salon in which she's kind of approaching
this question of the concept of modern day chivalry, if
you will, in dating and she takes on this uh,
this piece that was written by woman ks him a Witz,
(10:58):
who argues that young men are exposed to a series
of quote misques, cross purposes, and half conscious contradictory female
expectations that are alternately proudly egalitarian and coyly traditional. They
want you to open the door. They don't want you
to open the door, but they do want you to
pay for dinner. They want chivalry one moment and evolved
(11:19):
egalitarianism the next. And while I don't think that it's
you know, that's true one percent of the time, I
think that it is you know, she does make a
decent point there. I think we've already between the two
has probably sent out a lot of mixed signals in
terms of what we'd expect or what we and like
you said at the beginning, Christian expect is it wrong?
Is the wrong word? I don't think you'd go into
(11:41):
any date thinking, man, if he doesn't open the car
door for me, minus five points thanks, um. But you know,
it's just it's something you become aware of, and it
does become weird when it's uh twisted up in your
ideas of what common courtesy is. So I do understand
how that, um, there can be sort of that that
(12:02):
confusion among men. But what I was really kind of
disturbed by was that Clark Flory says that these men,
because we're giving them so many crazy cues, are practicing
something called dating Darwinism, in which they become sort of
the biggest jerks they can be to make the point
that they're not treating you any uh, with any special
(12:25):
respect at all. Yeah, they're basically turning there. It's like
the chivalry backlash basically where they just kind of treat
us like dirt and and we were like a dude.
I mean, if we want, you know, this is again
it's it's gonna be kind of tricky to navigate. But
if we do want to be seen as equal to guys,
then are we just one of the guys. So here's
(12:49):
my big question, though, Molly, we keep we keep interchanging
chivalry and courtesy and civility. Uh So, so my question
here is maybe we shouldn't be asking so much whether
or not chivalry should die, but whether chivalry and in
its true form and its actual definition, what what chivalry
(13:14):
really means, if it even exists today, or whether what
we're talking about is just social courtesy. Uh, you know,
these these kinds of social patterns that we've just kind
of adopted in terms of male female relations, you know,
sort of the knee jerk, open a door, knee jerk,
(13:34):
pick up a tab, all of those kind of things
that are being challenged, you know, as as we evolve,
you know, um, and especially in in the dating context,
is that whole landscape continues to change because it is
radically changed, I will say for our generation in particular.
(13:55):
So maybe maybe chivalry isn't even even the question anymore.
It's just such a loaded word. I mean, it's exactly
when we've had conversations about feminism. It's so loaded. And
if you go back to the original meaning, and if
it's about nights, you know, wearing certain you know, coats
of armor on certain days, it's not relevant. I think
when people get upset or concerned about how courtesy relates
(14:19):
to feminism is when it seems to be some sort
of special act that acknowledges gender. And I think that
maybe what we women don't do is look at the
ways in which we are in return courteous to men. Uh,
perhaps in a dating situation or on a train. I mean,
if if a young father comes on the train and
(14:40):
he's got like two kids, and he's trying to wrestle
them into place he can have the seat. It's not
a matter of the woman always wins. It's more a
matter of you know, I think that people see showry
is so one sided, and that's why it seems unfair
to put it in context with feminism, whereas there are
things that we do in return that maybe just aren't.
(15:01):
I mean, we put on the charm on our dinner dates,
we take showers, throw on some makeup. I'm not saying
that those are the equal acts to opening a door,
but I just wonder if because chalbry has become this
thing that men do, we overlook the things that women
do in return, be it cooking dinner one night, picking
up the grocery. Yeah, and goodness, Molly, I mean you
(15:23):
and I both opened doors for people. You know. It's
just it's something that that it just it happens now
as as a natural byproduct, whoever becauess the door first,
better opened the door door. Yeah, exactly, common courtesy. Here's
maybe they should do this to just create equality and dating,
every restaurant that might ever be used as a date
(15:43):
location should have either revolving doors or the double doors
I like the double doors because first one person opens
and the person goes in, and they get to the
second door first, and then they opened the door, but
the other person WHOA. I'm guessing the expense of putting
(16:03):
double doors in every place that might be used as
a dating locale would be would be excessive. But I
do like the double doors because that way everyone gets
to participate. Well, here's the thing. You know, you and
I have been hashing this out, and I think this
might be a good opportunity to toss in a male
perspective in this UM. This is from Men's News Daily,
(16:27):
which Molly and I subscribe to. Not really UM, but
the the This is Men's Wu's Aliens, an article kind
of hashing out UM for for men. This question of
whether or not, Yeah, whether or not chivalry and just
general politeness is really something that that guys need to
(16:48):
keep doing. And he says the very point of chivalry
is that it's a man's way of showing respect for
a woman by taking care of her physical safety, whether
by fending off an attacker simply pulling out a chair
for a woman. The traditional way to repay chivalry is
not by being chivalrous back but to repay the man
by being sweet or cooking some food for him. Chivalry
(17:10):
is therefore an intrinsic part of our traditional gender roles,
and the concept is impossible to preserve if you're for
a society where men and women have exactly the same roles.
And I think that is a pretty good point. Yeah,
I mean, I think that the biggest risk that we're
running here, Kristen is people will write in and say
that we're trying to have it both ways, that we
want all this equality, but we still don't mind taking
(17:33):
seats when they're offered to us. Yeah, And I mean
that's that's one thing. Like we said, we're from the South,
maybe we just um have different ideas of politeness um
and what courtesy is. And I don't see those I
don't always see a gender reason for why I'm being
offered a seat, even though that might be in the
person who's offering itce mind. But but if but if
(17:55):
someone pulls that seat out for you different and says,
take a load off those tiny tiny feet, take a
load all those gams, then yeah, I might I might
get a little skis out. I mean, he's he's saying
that if we're going to call it chivalry, there's gonna
be gender roles associated with it if we call it courtesy.
(18:18):
Are those gender roles still there? And is it as
potentially offensive? Yeah, I say, maybe not as much. Maybe
it's all maybe maybe we're just arguing semantics. Maybe it's
just all you know, problems with vocabulary. Chivalry is just
such a like you said, such a loaded term that
um that it's it will always at some point be
(18:41):
perceived as negative. Yeah, in some light, I don't know.
We don't know. I mean, we didn't start this podcast
with any answer in mind as if that is not
abundantly clear, and there was no expert source out there
to tell us what the right or wrong answer was.
That's why, that's kind of why we did it. Was
just to get people's viewpoints on it. And we are
(19:04):
asking all of you to write in to mom stuff
at how stuff or dot com. Are we are irrationalizing
if we're if we're good feminists, should we you know,
go Dutch? Should we pick up tabs more than we
might now? Or is it just not a big deal
if a guy opens a car door and guys, I mean,
are are we sending out all of these mixed signals
(19:26):
of like yeah, open the store but not that door,
and or pay for this but don't order that. You know,
is this is it? It's just a huge chivalrous mess
out there that you have to dive into as well.
We want to know your thoughts because clearly we're in
the same miss as you are. So email us at
(19:49):
Mom's Stuff at how stuff works dot com and let's
work this out together. Yes, I think with with all
our listeners we can we can nail down the hill,
right thing. Really, if you can do something, all right?
So let's read some listener mail. This one is from
Andy and he was writing about the Musical Instrument podcast.
(20:11):
It was called why I Don't always play the harp.
Andy writes, I recall the reason I started playing the cello.
In the third grade, the local high school orchestra came
and played for our class. It was then that I
discovered the girl who'd been my babysitter for years was
the first chair of the cello section. After a little concert,
she came over and talked to me about all the
awards she'd won and how she was going to be
getting a scholarship to play music. Of course, it didn't
(20:33):
hurt that she played a solo of the Star Wars
theme song from my friends and me. I thought she
was so cool that the very next week I signed
up for orchestra class and went straight for the cello.
Years later, once I was in high school and then college,
there was always a woman a chair head stopping me
from getting the top spot. So the cello is my
vote for the most gender neutral strange instrument. Supposedly, it's
traditionally a masculine choice, but all of the cellist I've
(20:55):
ever met were incredibly talented women. Well, I've got an
email here from Brian, and this is about our podcast
on your Brain. On a breakup, he says, a few
years ago, I went through a divorce. I decided that
rather than developing an alcohol problem, to deal with the depression,
I would start learning the Russian language. Whenever I'd get
(21:18):
into a funk, I would fire up my laptop and study, study, study.
After a time, the funk lessened, but I continued studying,
eventually making friends with some Russians, one of which became
my girlfriend and then my wife. So that's a nice story,
isn't it amazing how distractions can lead to different kinds
(21:40):
of distractions, and Brian says, thanks for all the hard
work to you and everybody at how stuff works, and
thank you Brian. And speaking of how stuff works, you
can email us at that domain It's Mom's Stuff at
how stuff works dot com. You can also head over
to Facebook and like us, leave calm and ask advice
(22:02):
whatever you please um And then you can also join
our Twitter conversation we are mom Stuff podcast over there,
and then finally you can head over to our blog
It's stuff mo'n ever told you and you can find
it at how stuff works dot com. For more on
(22:22):
this and thousands of other topics, is it how stuff
works dot com. Want more how stuff works, check out
our blogs on the house stuff works dot com home page.
Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera.
It's ready, are you
Stuff Mom Never Told You News
Hosts And Creators
Anney Reese
Samantha McVey
Popular Podcasts
United States of Kennedy
United States of Kennedy is a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week, hosts Lyra Smith and George Civeris go into one aspect of the Kennedy story.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com