SMNTY Book Club: All You Can Ever Know

Nicole Chung, author of the memoir All You Can Ever Know, joins us to discuss transracial adoption, family and writing.

Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to stuff
I've never told your production of I Heart Radio. So
today is a special episode and because of that, I'm
not you're off the hook, Samantha. I'm not gonna ask

(00:25):
a big question of the day, but I have so many.
You have the best questions, um and usually somewhat related
as opposed to my questions, which is, I'm just hungry,
so let's talk about food. So okay, I can't. I
love your questions, but all right, keeping on going. We
do have a very special episode because it's time for

(00:45):
another Sminty book Club, and today we are talking about
Nicole Chung's book All You Can Ever Know, a memoir
which was suggestion by Samantha. Yes. It tells the story
of Chung's experience with transracial option as a Korean who
was adopted into a white Catholic family and raised in
a very white town. The title refers to something her

(01:08):
adoptive mother told her about her adoption and her birth family,
that it may be all you Can Ever Know, And
it deals with themes of family, identity, adoption and all
of the complexities within those things. Yeah, and today is
a special one because we got to have an interview
with the author, and it was such a great interview, Um,
and I loved every moment of it, So thank you, Nicole.

(01:31):
But stick around for that because it is a big
portion of the show. We talked about this book in
depth and just kind of the the behind the scenes
and just kind of some of the thought processes with it. Yes, yes, Um,
but briefly we did want to give an overview. The
plot essentially follows Chung throughout her life growing up in Yes,
a religious family that believed her to be a gift

(01:51):
from God through adulthood, and her decision to seek out
her birth parents as she starts a family of her own.
Her first pregnancy is inter mind with her making contact
with her birth family right so as a child, when
Chung asked about her adoption, her parents always told her
the same story, a series of events that were the
will of God that led them to finding her and

(02:13):
adopting her. UM. And she was born premature. So that
is a big portion of the plot in her life.
Is that is how I would say, that's strange to
think of someone's life as a plot, but I said,
I mean, every everyone's life is a stage. So the
adoption happened very quickly, and it was a close adoption,
which meant that legally the birth parents were not supposed

(02:35):
to make contact with the birth child or the family rights.
Chung's time in school was marked by loneliness and isolation.
Um the only she was the only non white child
in her class. Her adoptive parents were color blind, which
is the term you probably recognize if you've been listening
to our previous But clubs would also just you know,
paying attention to what's all the conversations happening around um,

(02:57):
And in that way, they did not give her the
tool was to talk about racism or even really understand
it and her experiences with it. She writes about how
in many ways her adoptive parents were unprepared to raise
a Korean child. They also didn't have many answers for
Chunge when she asked for any information about her birth family.
So this led her to wonder why her birth family

(03:19):
gave her up if she mattered to them at all,
what were they like if they thought about her at all?
She went searching for any information she could find in
her house, and she discovered a letter indicating her birth
mother had reached out to her, and her adoptive parents
had not told her, so some of the chapters I
actually told from the point of view of Cindy, who
we find out as the book goes on, is Nicole's

(03:42):
birth sister. Their birth parents had told Cindy and Um
their other half sister Jessica, that Nicole had died at birth.
As Nicole gets older, she becomes sort of an adoption ambassador,
although it's kind of a theme throughout her life, collecting
stories and answering questions for people who are looking at
transracial adoption, and in doing so starts arriving at questions

(04:05):
of her own. She meets her husband and becomes pregnant,
and the questions get louder when she realizes she can't
really fill out the medical history. She starts the process
of reaching out to them, filing paperwork and scraps of
information as her pregnancy progresses, until just as her child
is born, she hears from her birth father and learned
she has a birth sister, Cindy, who was abused by

(04:28):
her birth mother. Cindy and her birth mother are estranged
and her birth parents are divorced. Um Nicole also learns
that yes, she has this step sister. Her birth father
especially regret at putting her up for adoption, explaining that
her birth mother had wanted a boy, that they didn't
have the money for sick child as Nicole was expected
to be, and later that she was abusive and he

(04:50):
believed adoption to be the best thing for Nicole. So
this clash with the story China told herself about her
birth family, UM and now it was complicated with abuse
and concerns that she was unprepared be a mother herself.
But it's a beautiful story because she starts in a
relationship with Cindy, her sister, one that goes on to
be close and loving. UM. It starts from emails and

(05:10):
to shared photos, to phone calls and eventually meeting in person.
They sharing their lives with each other, and she does
go on to form a tentative relationship with her birth
father and his new wife, a relationship she does not
keep from her adoptive parents. And it's really beautifully written
and moving and UM, as I was reading it, Samantha,

(05:33):
I've heard echoes of so many things you've told me
that you've shared with me, and um, I, it's also
so relatable to anyone, UM because I related to it too,
and during this interview that we're about to share, it
was really beautiful for me to kind of just sit
back and listen to you bond and and have this

(05:57):
more in depth conversation as you do have shared experiences
and and Nicole is very clear that you can't like
everybody's experience is different to their own life, but they're
just certain circumstances um that even though I can relate to.
It was really lovely for me to to kind of
sit back and let you have that space, let you

(06:20):
both have that lovely conversation, right, I will say, yeah,
our stories definitely the beginning, and she talks a little
bit about origin stories and the beginnings. Um though it
was different for her and I. She had the unusual
circumstances of being born in the US and her biological
parents being immigrants in the US and then being adopted

(06:41):
after the fact, as opposed to where I was adopted
from Korea while I was at an orphanage and was
at a young age six seven years old before I
came to the U S. So that was different. But
the whole internal monologue that she had growing up and
seeing her differences with the rest of our community was
so familiar and so too real and vivid for me

(07:03):
that it was really nice to have a moment just
kind of dissecting which what each other had experienced. Almostn't
around the same time because she and I are similar
in age, but she was in closer to Portland's Ish
and I was in Georgia. But having that similarity with
very different atmospheres, it was comforting at the same time,
it was very shockingly honest. Yeah. Yeah, and we're so

(07:26):
so glad um that she reached out and we were
able to do this interview. So without further build up,
let's get into the interview. But first let's get into
a quick break for word from our sponsor. And we're back.

(07:53):
Thank you sponsor. So let's take it away. So we
have someone very special here today our little book club
I shouldn't say little, should I for our gigantic book club,
with our people's, with our cementy people's. Um, we have
Nicole Chung, author of all you can ever know. Yeah,

(08:13):
I'm very excited about this, so welcome Nicole. Yes, thank
you so much. I'm really glad to be here. Um,
I'm not gonna lie when we started talking about our
next book, I was very excited to pick this one
up because obviously this is very personal for me as
an adoptee from Korea, so all my Korean people, yeah, um.
So having you even respond when I put up our

(08:37):
posts about our book club made me so excited. And
so we want to thank you for taking the time
to sit down because we are we're sitting down on
the interwebs, right is that this is what it's called
the vir down and talking with us about your book.
So if you don't mind, can you introduce yourself and
tell us a little bit about your book? Sure, somebody's

(08:58):
Nicole Chung. I'm the author of The More All You
Can Ever Know. It's my first book. I'm also the
editor in chief of Catapult Magazine. And I grew up
in Oregon, small town, very white in southern Oregon. I
tell people it's like five hours from Portland and six
hours from San Francisco, just to give you a sense.
It is truly in the middle of nowhere. And the

(09:20):
book is about growing up adopted in a white family
in a very like white community, and what happened when
I grew up and decided to search for my Korean
birth family as an adult um and this is a
search that coincided with the birth of my first child,
So I mean, it was it was very strange to
have those two things happening at the same time, Like
the family was just changing in in so many ways

(09:42):
and really like being redefined for me. So I wanted
to write about it, and that's where this book came from.
Even though your story and my story are fairly different,
it was so comforting to see us having the similar
conversations and similar thought process, especially when we were ch
chidren Um. You you talk a lot about in your

(10:02):
book about realizing that you are different and having we
always know because obviously white Korean doesn't obvious um, but
having people say it to our faces, and instead of
being in our comfort zone with our family where we're
isolated and being told you know, you're part of the
family or part of the family, which is nice to hear,
but then coming outside of that, having mean little children

(10:24):
the same things that you don't want to talk about.
You're like, what the hell did you just say to me?
And yeah, not not even just getting it from kids,
but from adults. I mean, like I don't want to
make assumptions about your experience. But like I write about
in the book, I mean, we had exchanges in the
grocery store with total strangers, and it would come up
with like substitute teachers calling role. So it was definitely
like this thing that was a just a constant source

(10:46):
of questioning and conversation and sometimes in ways that felt
really intrusive, you know, from people of all ages, like
throughout my childhood. And as you point out, like it's
so different the difference between like knowing, of course you
look different from your family, and then going out of
that safe space if your home is a safe space,
like going out into the world and and suddenly realizing

(11:07):
like I'm also different from all these people, and like
having them call attention to it in different ways. Right, um.
And I didn't want to ask you because obviously for
me it was very personal and very vulnerable to see
it in writing in someone else's experience. Why do you
think it is important that you shared your story and
your experiences? Oh gosh, I mean, I just think we

(11:27):
need more adoption stories by adoptees in general. I mean
certainly not just mine, and it's not alone. There are
definitely others out there that I think it's in dialogue with,
but like by and large, the sort of mainstream conversation
like discourse. I know, we have probably like a love
hate relationship with that word. But the narrative, like the
overall mainstream adoption narrative, I think, is so dominated by

(11:49):
like adoptive parents who tend to be white, when like
most people in this country who are adopted is a
lot of us are people of color. There's a lot
of like industry voices, like adoption professionals, there's lawyers, you
know that, social workers. You've got everybody in the mix,
and sometimes it feels like the voices that are missing
are really the voices of the adoptees, for whom it
is like a deeply personal, lived experience. And I wanted

(12:11):
to tell this story, you know, not because I think
it's like representative at all of like all adoption stories,
all transracial adoptees, not even all Korean adoptees. And fact,
for various reasons, my situation is really atypical because I
wasn't actually born in Korea. My birth parents were immigrants.
But you know, I just really feel strongly that like
we need more stories by adoptees out there, you know,

(12:34):
And I read so many books as a kid, like
in some cases looking for myself, or families like mine,
or just like multicultural, multiracial families in general. And I
think it's getting better, but there certainly weren't, like you know,
there's certainly wasn't the volume of those types of stories
that I would have wanted growing up and coming of
age and even moving into adulthood. So I mean, I
just hoped that it would be one more addition to

(12:57):
different genres that I think need expanding. I mean, I
was in college before I read my first memoir by
an Asian American woman, and so I think, I think
there's just like a lot of space for like a
lot of different types of stories, and it's it's just
one more that I helped means something to people. But
that's the thing is that it's not one more. Is
one added because there's not enough representation in general. So

(13:18):
we have representation, but it's already so small for women
of color and specific the Asian women. But then even
talking about the economy of being an adoptee is even
smaller and almost of fetishized in a weird, weird save
your way, that you needed a breakdown, and I think
I really appreciated how open and vulnerable you were and

(13:39):
willing to talk about those situations. Um, but I didn't
want to come back because you are a writer. You're
not just you know this Korean girl is chalking about
you're a writer. You're in and you've been a writer.
It sounds like since you're a child, Like you're talking
about how you had to make up your own worlds
and create your own characters so you felt represented. So

(13:59):
you created it. Um for this book and for writing
in general, what is your process in writing? Oh my gosh,
I barely remember having a writing process, if I'm really honest.
There are also huge swaths of this book I don't
remember writing like I swear I did, but like it's
just kind of a big blur, you know. I started
it in like the months right before and then right

(14:20):
after the election, like there were it was in a
great time. I mean, this is not a great time,
but that was also not a great time. I remember
putting it down for three months and like barely opening
it and feeling like every time I opened it, oh,
this doesn't matter, and like kind of closing it so,
I mean it's always kind of a fraud process, and
that two kids, I've got a full term job, and
so a lot of this was just kind of crammed

(14:42):
in the margins. I mean I would write like every
evening for months on end. I would spend at least
half the weekend like writing. Lots of days my husband
would take the kids out of the house, like on
a Saturday, They'd be gone all day. I don't know
what they did. They would come back at night. I'd
be in the same position. He'd be like did you eat?
Did you drink? Like how we moved and I so,
you know, I so appreciated that I got that space

(15:04):
at all, But it was it was definitely not like
this like beautiful, tranquil writing process with a lot of
space and a lot of time. There were no like
playlists or candles burning. It was very much just like
you know, oh my god, I have thirty minutes. I've
better really used this thirty minute. But like, I mean,
it is more involved in that like there there was

(15:24):
definitely like some I mean I outlined it before a
little bit because I had to just sell it. I mean,
if I'm honest, I don't know if I would have
outlined it otherwise it wound up looking really different than
my outline. But I think if you can, if you
can outline a project, you know, you can kind of
write that project. Turns out your high school teacher was
sort of right about that, So, I mean that helped

(15:45):
me getting at a certain point. Getting reads from friends
or family really helped, you know, people always have, especially
when you read a memoir, lots of questions about like
how your family read, if they read, how they waited
in all of that, which we could talk about if
if you find it interesting. But I mean that was
also part of my process. It was figuring out who
to invite in and when and then like how to

(16:06):
incorporate those things in. But yeah, it was just a
lot of like mining memories. It was a fair amount
of interviewing also family members, just to make sure I
got my facts right. And like, looking back, I was
fortunate to have certain sources, like not just family lure
or interviews, but like I've journaled my whole life, you know,
so I had like these really detailed entries from around

(16:26):
the time I was searching, you know, I kept a
journal specifically about my search for my birth family, So
I had like, in some cases, whole conversations like written
down verbatim, which is great because I wrote this book
quite a few years after it happened, so I was
really fortunate to have that. But yeah, that's I mean,
that's a little bit about process, but truly, so much
of it is always just like sitting down and forcing

(16:48):
yourself to use the time that you have and and
giving yourself breaks to know when you need to take
a step back and actually think about a problem. Like
there are definitely issues that come up writing where it
doesn't matter how long you sit and stare like at
the at the words of the screen, you might just
need to step back and get some space and think
about it without that pressure. Yeah, any are you taking notes?

(17:11):
And she loves to write fan fiction and she's I
think she's she won't let me read it yet, but
um my fan fiction would destroy you, and I'd say
that it's devastating. She likes tragedy. But yeah, so, and
I love how you said that you have to give
a step back. And I'm just wondering for writing a

(17:34):
memoir because as a writer, I'm sure you're you're writing
into a world of fiction as well as as memoirs
and such. Is the process different? Is it? How do
you do it in a healthy manner? Because I can't
imagine trying to process some of the life experiences and
I'm sure sure traumas that's within that. How do you
process and do that? It's funny when I started this book,

(17:54):
I really thought I had done all the processing that
there was to do, or at least like nine of it.
I was like, and I was very consciously like not
writing for say Catharsis or like, I wasn't writing to process.
Certainly writing helps with that, But by the time I
decided to publish about it and have it be hopefully
like read by others, I was thinking about, like what

(18:16):
what does the reader need to know? Like what do
they need to know to understand the stakes? Like what
will they pull from this? What will they take away?
Because when you write a memoir, like it's not really
about you anymore, it is like so much about the reader,
Like what relationship will they have to it? You're hoping
it's a good story, like first and foremost that it
actually draws people in and they want to keep reading.

(18:36):
But then beyond that, you know, with memoir I think
memoir is a form that justifies itself by like through
the question like what is in this for someone else?
Like what can someone else who's not you, who's not
deeply already like internet with your experience? Like what do
they get out of it? So I was I was
thinking about that a lot, Like what is the writer
need to understand, like in order to care about this,

(18:59):
in order to maybe reconsider some ideas they might have
about adoption or about like you know, transitional adoption specifically,
or about like multicultural multiracial families like mine and families
that are built like not just through like marriage, birth,
but also adoption, Like what do they need to know
to really like get the story? Um, and to maybe
re examine some of their ideas about it? So that

(19:20):
was like very much what I was thinking. And and
I think I also again like because it is so personal,
and also because there were so many people in the
story whose like stories over left with mine. I was thinking, um,
you know, hopefully not in like a censoring way, but
just like a realistic way, how I'm going to portray
people as like fully human and complex and in a

(19:42):
respectful way, even if they make choices that are clearly
like questionable or choices that like are fine, but what
aren't what I would have done, you know, like making
room for for the humanity of every other person in
the story. I think that was also something that I
thought about. I'm like worried about to be honest a lot,
and that actually brings me to one of the quotes

(20:03):
you've read in your one of your interviews is right,
it took so long for me to realize that love
for my family didn't have to mean staying silent, and
that I had to write to my anger. And for
me as an adoptee, I always have a fear that's
saying I wasn't the perfect happy orphan adoptee UM would
cause hurt and have a lot of backlash. UM and
being completely honest for and for you to write about

(20:25):
it's such an inspiration. Again, like I say in this article,
when you say that, UM, you talk about how important
it is to listen to the quote uncomfortable stories of
adoptions as well as the good, happy ending ones. What
advice do you have for people who are scared to
tell that uncomfortable story Because you even talk about getting
an email being accused of being ungrateful, which I've heard

(20:47):
so much. Yeah, I've heard that too, and I'm like,
oh my god, please know I love my family, but
happened and and things were handled wrong, and I'm growing
from it, and I'm still talking like again, and I'm
still damaged by it, and I'm trying to unravel some things.
But what is your advice for people who are scared
to talk about it? Yeah, that's a really good question.

(21:08):
I mean, I guess the first thing, I'm an editor myself,
Like that's my day job, and I love it. I
love working with writers. It's a great privilege to get
to do that. I think, like I never want a writer,
regardless of their background or experience, to feel like they
owe the world, like their trauma or their you know,
the hardest, darkest moments. It takes like certain things have

(21:29):
to happen to you, like as a person and then
as a writer to get to a point where you
want to tell those stories. And I guess the first
thing I would say is you don't have to, like
if you're not ready, especially if you're not ready to
do it publicly, because like as well you all know,
there's such a difference between like working and stuff yourself
for working on it with your family and that's hard enough,
and then like to take that and like bring it

(21:50):
into at least some part of it into a public sphere.
It's not for everybody, it shouldn't have to be for everybody.
I am like super grateful when writers are willing to
do that because I've learned so much as a reader
by like reading outside my experience. Right, So, but like
you have to balance like what is good for you
personally and your family and those relationships, and then like

(22:11):
what could help others. So I mean that's the first
thing is that you don't owe it to anybody, but
if you want to, and like plenty plenty of people do.
And I've been asked by some plenty of adoptees like
who are trying to figure out ways to tell these stories?
Like I mean, I think just recognizing again that like

(22:31):
it's hard if if writing is going to be your
catharsis or like your only catharsis. So I would say,
like making sure you've already done the work, and like
you know, you have a good support system. I don't
like tell people you should go to therapy, but like
God does we could all benefit from therapy, like thank
God for therapy. So I mean I and I did.

(22:51):
I mean I went to I went to therapy, as
I wrote about in the book, like as a transitional adoptee,
like at the age of seven, eight nine, um, and
I haven't been in continuously my whole life, but like
I was really glad I was lucky to have at
that young age like an adoption competent therapist. Definitely have
run into some who aren't as knowledgeable about it. So

(23:11):
I mean to the extent that like people want to
write about it, I would just like see like how
like are you really okay? Are you ready to do this?
And I try not to have that sound condescending, because
you can be in the midst of real trauma and
still be ready to write about it. You know, that's
not a call I can make. But for me, like
there's a reason that like my search happened when it did,

(23:32):
and this book was published like almost ten years later,
Like I couldn't actually I told you, I journaled about it,
and that was for me that was kind of processing catharsis.
But like I could not have written this book while
it was happening. It would have been like too soon.
So I think just being really honest about where you
are and and knowing like if you're emotionally psychologically ready

(23:54):
for that are like other things. And then my like
my other big thing was just making sure in terms
of my family and those relationships. I did not want
the first time they ever learned that I had a
particular issue or problem or like you know, baggage. I
didn't want them to learn about it in an interview
in my book, in an essay, like I wanted us
to have had that discussion first. So I mean, this

(24:16):
is a privilege I had because I wasn't estranged from them,
because my parents like did love me. I think it
wasn't easy, but we were able to eventually have enough
conversations where I felt like, Okay, maybe parts of the
book would still be hard for them, or maybe they
wouldn't agree with other parts, but like it wouldn't be
a shock like we would have we would have done

(24:36):
that work already as a family. And I kind of
felt that with my sister too, and like other people
in the story, just like yeah, if if people were
in the book, you know, if if I'm in touch
with them, have a relationship with them, like I wanted
them to not be surprised by by what was shared.
That was just like a very important sort of ground
rule for me. I love that. I feel like that

(24:58):
advice is pretty much covers for anyone who's trying to
write a memoir in general, especially if it's traumatic, um
in any way, So thank you for that. And I
did want to go into the book and you talked
a little bit already about the reactions of your family,
and it looked like, for the most part, your parents,
your adoptive parents, were supportive of your book, and and

(25:20):
and um understanding, I know your father passed away before
you were able to publish it, is that correct, um, Now,
So I just wanted to know how those conversations went
down when you discussed the book, as you were talking
about and even with your sister, your biological sister, how
did all those conversations go. Yeah. So the first time,
I mean I started telling everybody that I was thinking

(25:40):
about writing a book, when it was like I'm like
getting a proposal together, it's going to go out on submission,
it was very hard for me to believe it was
gonna sell. So like I was like, you know, I
don't know, it may happen, it may not. Um, so
like take it with a grain of salt that like
I'm thinking about this and everyone that you know, I mean,
I say it gave me their blessing, but that's a
little too reductive. They were basically okay, like it's your life.

(26:03):
My mom was an adoptive mom. She was like, you know,
as long as you don't write anything bad about us,
Like yeah, it's definitely it's not going to be like
a hit piece, like that's not the goal. That would
it be satisfying And it was funny. She also said
got My mom was hilarious. She was like, like, you're
not famous, so like who's going to read it? You know,
which is like another it's just a very palm thing. Um.

(26:26):
I think she was picturing like, you know, the celebrity memoir, right,
and I'm like, that's true. I'm not famous. People do
not care about me individually. But yeah, so what we
talked about it so I I basically again this goes
back to my no surprises rule. But I you know,
even before I sold it, I wanted them to notice
a possibility. I told them when I sold it. I

(26:47):
told him when I was working on it, and then
it was like a lot of silence for a while
because like it's not very interesting to talk about how
you're struggling with your manuscript. And so, um, I think
I brought it up again with everybody, you know, like
I ask every now and then, but I mostly just
like when I'm actually working on something, I don't like
to let people in, Like I'm like you'll know about

(27:07):
it when it's published, or like if I want to
show you a draft beforehand. And that's what I did,
like when I had a full, like a full complete
draft that my editor was also like this is good.
Like that's when I showed it to my family and
was just like open comment, reading period, share all your
thoughts and feelings with me. So I mean that's that's

(27:28):
kind of how that went. My um my, So my
biological sister, like her story comes into this so much.
There's a lot I share that's like really specific and
personal like about her, And I told I told her,
I was like, you you're the one who gets veto power,
like this is so personal. Um, if there is anything
you want taken out, no questions asked, we'll take it out.

(27:50):
And so I mean she didn't ask me to take
anything out, but I absolutely would have. That was just
really important to me. Um, it was like a little
bit different like with my birth father my adoptive parents,
like I would have had a conversation with them about
stuff they really objected to. But I mean, first of all,
I didn't have to because no one strongly objected, which
was great. But also like I mean this goes back

(28:14):
to like I don't know, there's this like great Lucille
Clifton line. It's like it's from a poem and and
she says, like people want me to remember their memories,
but I keep remembering my own. I might have mangled
that somewhat, but I mean, a memory is it is.
It's a book, it's a work built on memories, and
it is so personal. Like my mother and I might remember,

(28:34):
say like a certain thing differently. Um, and when we do,
or when she's not sure or when I'm not sure,
I try to acknowledge that in the text, Like I'm
a big fan of those signals and saying I think this,
my mother says this, or you know, neither one of
us can totally remember, but like this is what we
think happened. Like I actually like that, but but yeah,

(28:54):
like it doesn't necessarily mean I would like take it out.
So it was a different kind of negotiation. But um,
but no one actually asked me to remove anything. You know.
I think my parents were like, you got this year wrong,
and like so I changed the year and my sister
thought of a couple of things too that like she
had told me that like it turned out, you know,
maybe I forget what exactly it was like sort of

(29:16):
minor corrections, but but nobody, nobody like quibbled with anything,
like you know, in terms of content. M I mean,
I hope that the other people in the story, especially
like my sister and my parents, like they do feel, um,
that it's true and that it honors them, because that
was something that I really wanted to do. Like I

(29:38):
don't know, it's it's like I just kind of wanted
them to feel like real and to feel fully human
and I am for people to have empathy with them
and not just me, And I figured if I could
do that, then then the book would be maybe doing
them justice as well. Um, but like this is going
to look different for everybody, of course, being writing personal stories.

(30:01):
It was just kind of like how I approached it
because because I, you know, I am in touch with
my family, because these relationships are really important to me,
and because I also wanted to tell the truth and
tell my truth. Um, you know how to do that
and how to negotiate that. When your story overlapped with
other people's lives, right, and you did a great job
of intertwining those stories. It was very beautiful and it

(30:24):
flowed so well, um that it didn't take it out
like for so many stories when it does, I it
kind of takes you out. You're like, what just happened?
Where am I? But for you, your story it was perfect.
It kind of just was a beautifully fleshed out, threaded
story together. So it was amazing. But I do want
to ask also, because your biological father was as a

(30:47):
writer as well as well in the academic did you
actually talk to him about your book? Did he read
it as well? Yeah? It's such a it's just such
a kick that my birth father turns out to be
a writer, and like not just a writer, but like
primarily an essayist, like writing not fiction. And he's told me,
he's like, you get this from me, you know, And
I think he's probably right because like nobody in my

(31:07):
adoptive family, you know, is a writer anyway, It's it's
just interesting. But but yeah, so he did. I told him.
At the same time I told my sister and my
adoptive parents, um, and then I sent all of them
the manuscript. I might have sent it to my sister
like a week ahead of the others, but like around
the same time, so everyone had a chance. My first father,
you know, he's Korean and he's fluent in English, but

(31:30):
it's not his first language, and so he read it. Okay. God,
First of all, I think my adoptive parents took forever
to read it, and I was getting getting increasingly anxious
the longer they held out to it. I was finally
I was like, it's been like four or six weeks.
I hadn't really heard. I was like, you know, what
do you think? Like, I know, it's like probably a
lot to read, but it's not like war in peace.

(31:52):
It's like, you know, it's just not that long. Can
we talk about it, please? But so he actually took
much longer, uh than they did, even and so that
I did hear from him. He again didn't ask me
to change anything. He said he was proud Um. I
know it was like a difficult thing for him to
read it at points. UM, but I think I mean,

(32:12):
out of everyone, he's probably I don't know. I think
both he and my biological sister, I think they understood
really like almost more than anybody. Why like why I
wanted to write it down, just like why that felt
very important? Um. You know, again, this is something that
he does himself, and so I don't know, Like, I
just think that part of it made sense to him,

(32:34):
like where I was, like in my adoptive family. I
think there there was and still is in some corners
this whole question of like why in the world would
you And like, I don't think that's a question to
the Korean side. I think, like because both my father
and my sister UM love to write, and like that's
how they remember and how they honor certain memories. I

(32:55):
just think I think they kind of instinctively understood that, right.
I love that. UM. So I also wanted to ask
because I know, as a person who is very open
about adoption for myself as well, I get a lot
of questions. I get a lot of people coming to me.
I'm also a social worker, so I have that kind

(33:15):
of actually an experts. Yeah, well not in adoption but
in child uh stuff. But that sounded really professional, didn't it?
Child stuff? That's how professional. I this is why I'm
no longer in such play. But like you have now
kind of touted as the expert um, do you feel
like this is something that is fairly heavy responsibility since

(33:38):
this is not just something that you research or something
that you studied. This is your actually your life that
you're basing your conversations on, your expertise on I guess
um that you continually have to keep sharing. Do you
feel like it's kind of just a wait, that's a
really good question, and no one's ever actually asked me
that before, Like I forget it. I forget what it was.

(34:01):
But like at some point, I think, like a year
or two ago, like right around the tim the book
was actually coming out, Like, there was a fellow adoptee
and I think she said something to me like how
does it feel to be like basically the spokesperson? And
I was like, I mean I felt really uncomfortable. And
then I was like, oh God, is that what adopted
you think I'm trying to do? Like I'm really not.
I don't think I have the authority or the right,

(34:23):
you know, as I've tried to stay over and over
in a way that I hope doesn't sound like dodging responsibility,
but like I can't and don't want to like speak
for like I mean really any adoptees but myself. And
then you balance that against like the fact that like
we are underrepresented, like to some degree, anyone who reads
my book will think that, like my experience is I

(34:46):
mean at least somewhat representative of a lot of us.
So like, what what's my responsibility there? Um? I knew
when I wrote it, i'd be kind of feeling some
of this pressure, like the rep sweats at the same time,
like I had written other things about adoption before, and
I got feedback and I've gotten questions, and I felt like, again,
just much more prepared for that than I would have, say,

(35:06):
ten years earlier. Um. And like in terms of some
of the emails I get from people like the one
that you referenced earlier, you know, people saying I'm ungrateful
or saying that like they feel sorry for my adoptive parents. Um,
you know, and it gets I mean I've gotten worse
that would have destroyed me ten years ago. I don't
enjoy them now, but I am able to kind of

(35:27):
like I wouldn't say struggled them off. But the vast
majority of much more positive feedback is like, first of all,
you know, like it sort of outweighs all that hearing
from adoptees means like everything to me, and I probably
hear from like a couple adopt these a week still,
so like that's really meaningful. I don't regret putting the
story out there, and I guess I don't feel too

(35:47):
much pressure because to me, I've always felt like I'm
just telling my story. It's only representative of me and
my family. Like every adoptee is an expert on their
own experience, you know, they're their expert. There the authority,
and that's why we need so many more stories, right,
But that's also why the pressure is kind of off
of me, because like maybe that's still cough out, but

(36:09):
like I just I've never felt maybe some people view
me differently, but I have never assumed like or accepted
like that responsibility. I really this is like this is
like the beauty and the power of memoir is that
it is so personal, like you're gesturing at something more universal, hopefully,
But at the end of the day, I can really

(36:29):
only tell my own experience, and so no, I don't
feel it's a burden. I feel really privileged. I feel really,
you know, lucky to have gotten to to tell the
story at all. And I feel so so grateful whenever
I hear, especially from like fellow adoptees, that the book
meant something to them, you know, But I I appreciate that,

(36:50):
But I truly I don't really think of myself as
like a spokes person any more than like every single
one of us, who ever talks about it in any
public way, is turned into a kind of ambassador for
for the experience. Like you know, as you mentioned yourself,
if people know they're going to ask, and like, like

(37:10):
I read about in the book, I was only like
twenty two and these perspective adoptive parents are asking me, like,
so do we adopt? Is it going to be okay?
You know it didn't. I hadn't written a book yet,
I hadn't written anything about adoption, but like I was
still in that position. So I mean, we all kind
of share that just by having this experience. Yeah, I
will say yeah, my well, not my first, but one

(37:32):
of the experiences that I remember clearly was in college
when I was asked to talk to a family who
considering it. So I was like, okay, what um, And
of course that's before I realized all the things that
I need to figure out my own self. And then
living in a world where I was a social worker
and I saw the impact of foster care well as um,

(37:53):
some of the faulty systems that happened within foster care
and adoption. But yeah, that's kind of an interesting thing
where you become like, well, this is your life, so
that means you know everything, correct? Yeah, I mean when
they started with us from such a young age, though,
they do as soon as people start to notice you
look different from your parents. Like, if anything, I got
fewer questions in college because my parents were not around.

(38:15):
But I mean I in a way like we're sort
of turned into these little spokespeople like at a very
young age, or transfertional adoptees because it's right there, like
people really will just kind of like ask whatever. It's
kind of that whole like ownership. You've let that, you
put it out there, so therefore now we can ask
you whatever we want type of level. Yeah, yeah, it

(38:39):
has occurred to me too, like if people are really curious,
maybe if they read my book, they will not send
the next eight year old adopting thing Like yeah, a
few of the questions I've heard in interviews, I'm like,
did you not read her book? Because she already inserting
people are busy, they can't read everything. We just touch
you on this time, but not actually read the book,
so here you go, which I'm sure it has happened

(39:01):
many times. But yeah, Also I did want to ask um,
kind of in reference to the book, you talk about
a scene where you first meet your sister Cindy, and
we talked about shopping and cooking food and making recipes.
One of the things for me as an actual person
who lived in Korea until I was six um six seven,
and like, I have a lot of memories about food.

(39:21):
And I know that's not necessarily your story, but kind
of it seemed like you had a moment of bonding
with your sister talking about food. Do you now have
a favorite Korean dish or do something that YouTube talk
about or make together or need that. That's a weird question.
I love food. No, it's Okay, I have to think
about it. It's hard to pick a favorite. I've liked
every Korean dish I've ever tried, and especially my sisters

(39:45):
because it's like home cooking and she made it for me.
That sounds amazing. She makes like very good everything. I
don't know, I'm trying to think. I don't know if
I have like a clear favorite, but like every time
I eat Korean food, even if it's just at a restaurant,
it reminds me of her, and it's very comforting and
like it's not the same as like growing up in
a Korean family where I ate it all the time,

(40:05):
learned how to prepare it myself, like it always there's
a strong childhood association, but it is like a very
strong association with her, and we still go to like
the closest Asian grocery whenever we're together, which like sadly
hasn't been for a while, um, but like we'll always
do at least one day where there's a big shop
and then like a big dinner. She made cream food

(40:27):
for me. Like the day that my book published, I
was I was staying with her in Portland, and like
this is like amazing, Like I don't know, so I
don't think it's like the same as it is like
for a lot of other people, but I do. I
do really associate it with like her and with family,
just like not quite with like childhood or home. Yeah,

(40:48):
it's like so different, but you're making new memories, which
is amazing. We do have more of this conversation for you,
but first we have one more quick break for word
fromer sponsor and we're back thanking sponsor. Let's get back

(41:12):
into it. Then you said you have two children, Now
if you kind of put that in their world as well,
like bringing that kind of culture to them, I know
you had referenced your daughter wanting to learn Korean um
and trying to become more part of that culture. Has
that been a big part of their growing up? I
guess yeah, it hasn't been as big as I would

(41:33):
have liked it to be. Honestly, I think it's just hard,
like being adopted up. I feel like I was always
starting from like so far behind that it's like just
it's not like I have like a goal of like
pete Korean that like when I get there, I'll just
feels right, Like I think I'll always feel just a
little bit shaky and the identity and it doesn't like

(41:55):
it is harder to pass on just because of that,
like total cultural separation. I mean that said, like I
do enjoy times when my daughter and I will like
you know, practice Korean or like make we'll try to
make food together. Like I'm not very good at it,
but you know, like there are and she really likes
and she also likes cooking with my sister, So like
when my sister is here, like it's it's great to

(42:17):
have someone who knows what they're doing. Um, I mean,
it is a part of their heritage and there I
think they're very proud of it, you know. And when
I think about like what it means for them to
have connections to other parts of their culture, I mean,
in a way, they're more connected to Korean and I
guess maybe like the Lebanese part of their culture because
of things like food, which is so I mean not

(42:39):
that you can reduce a culture to its food, but
it's just so I mean, it's so wonderful to share,
to pass on impact. You can hold onto that after
you've lost so many other things. I think like they
do identify with that, and I know my My older
daughter especially, like is much more aware of things, strongly
identifies as you know, as Asian and American, as Korean,

(43:02):
as not white. But I don't know. I think they're
their understandings are definitely still evolving, and I try not
to speak too much about their personal like how they identify.
I mean, that's their story to tell. But I do think,
I mean, I know it's like part of their life,
and probably more so than it would have been, like
if I hadn't searched, and so in that sense, it's
not like mission accomplished. It's just like, you know, that's

(43:25):
like one more thing I think about. And they have
these people in their lives to like my sister, like
their cousin, um, you know, who they wouldn't have had otherwise,
and that's you know, those relationships are important for so
many reasons. I love that. But yeah, you did say
something about identity, and actually I just posted recently on
my own Twitter, I'm so cool. I'm not about the

(43:49):
fact that when I was as I'm reading your book,
I'm having to unravel a lot, not just with the book,
but just my whole life in trying to figure out
my identity again, since honestly, even though beforehand, yes, racism
is always there. I've always known I'm a different race.
I'm always known that I have been the only white kid,
um not, that's what I've trid again, only Asian kids
in a very white community, only person of color in

(44:11):
a very white community. As well, growing up um and
understanding that I had a lot of things to deal
with and fighting so hard as a child to fit
in and assimilate that I had to almost and it
wasn't because of anybody else other than my own insecurity
is like hating myself for being a person of color,
for being a girl that was not wanted, you know,

(44:32):
in this time frame or in this culture, and then
trying to grow up and trying to figure out which
place do I sit, which way do I go? You know.
And one of the things that I had this conversation
and someone said to me, You're like, wow, it's like
a double imposter syndrome. And she's I'm like what she's like,
Not only are you trying to prove that you're Asian
and you don't know if your Asian community will accept you,

(44:54):
you're also trying to prove you're not Asian to Asian
for the white community at one point in time, so
they'll you know that model minority can be a part
of your identity, such my identity, um so on that.
Have you ever had that experience as well, like trying
to figure out and how have you gone through it

(45:14):
or have you been able to go and pass that. Yeah,
I don't know if there's any getting passed it, which
I hope there's not real discouraging to people. But like
by then, I just mean like it'll always be part
of your experience, even if like you get to a
point where I don't know you've done the work or
you're at peace with it, or like you've moved beyond
trying to like appease any other like individual or a

(45:35):
group of people. I just think like you carry that
with you, like that memory, and I think it's so
hard to see when you're in the midst of it.
Like I probably if I were still living in my
very white hometown, I don't know how much harder it
would have been to do this unpacking to figure it out.
I don't know if I ever would have been able
to because like the white by default framework was just

(45:56):
I mean, that was just like my day to day,
like I had to be removed from it and experienced
something else to like look back and even begin to
unpack the impact and to think about like ways like
the scars I carried, the ways it was like you know, harmful, um,
you know, the things that were often nobody's fault, but
just like a way of how I experienced the world

(46:18):
because I was the only one for so many years.
I definitely, I've said before, I think that to some
people transitional adoptees, and let's be honest, Asian American adoptees,
because of the model minority myth, I think in some
ways we are like to some white people like the
ultimate and like accessibility in terms of like people of
color like. But then I mean, like we're just so
easily if they can relate to anybody, they can relate

(46:40):
to us, because you know, because model minority, because we
grow up in white families, Like we're socialized in these
ways because like because there is a lot of assimilation
at work, um, and you've got that proximity to whiteness,
which is not the same as having white privilege ourselves.
But like there is definitely like some and I've never
really succeeded in gearing it out for myself. But there

(47:01):
is like some associated privilege, like in just in terms
of the proximity to whiteness and like having that comfort.
I mean, the flip side is it can also like
make you really unsure of yourself as like a Korean
or Asian American, right, And I've there were definitely like
years really not so much now, but like you know,
I could think of years where like an all white

(47:23):
room would have felt like way more comfortable to me,
say it than like an Asian American room. And you know,
God not that those are the only two races, but
you know what I'm saying, Like for the purposes of
my upbringing and identity, like those are the two things
I was caught between. And there are many years where
like I would have not wanted to be white even
but like that room would have felt more comfortable, Like
I would have felt like I knew how to handle myself.

(47:45):
So this is a very long winded way of saying,
like I think it's just ongoing, like um, the work
of like processing and dealing with that and thinking about
what it means and you know, like figuring out to
like because we're not the only people in the room,
Like what does solidarity look like? Like? What is required
of us? Like given our positioning and our proximity to whiteness,

(48:08):
and like whatever comfort we have or don't have with it.
Like I mean, that's like it's like taking it a
step further. But before you couldn't even think about, like
what what solidarity looks like? As like an adopted Asian
person in this country. You know, you have to think
you have to have already done the work of like
examining how how that's affected you and your your worldview

(48:28):
and your biases and all of that. Yeah, it's fascinating
and it's all really hard. It is. It is so
many things. Obviously I've made this on my show right now.
That's I'm asking all of the questions and I'm like,
let me ask you this, um, But I did have
one more and then Annie, I promise I'm done, because
I do want to come back to the bond between

(48:48):
you and your sister and just how important it is
that we are able to see that type of bond,
not only the fact that you guys reconnected and what's
not an impossible moment to connect and finding a kinship
in such a closeness. Um, just can you talk about
your relationship and how it has obviously there's a lot

(49:09):
of healing in that, and what that looked like for you. Yeah,
I mean I think, like a lot of adoptees, when
I used to imagine, like maybe I'll search for my
birth family someday, maybe we'll connect, I was always picturing
like my birth parents. I mean I was. I've also
always wanted siblings, so like it's kind of weird in
a way. I didn't think about birth siblings as much

(49:30):
as like a real possibility, but I didn't, Like I
was just so focused on like you know, I mean,
they're literally the people who made you, so I was.
I guess I was sort of focused on that. But
the reunion with my sister was just so unexpected in
so many ways, Like it was not I thought of
it as like an unlooked for gift, like it really
it was such a surprise to me that like that

(49:52):
this would be I don't know, the greatest, the greatest
thing that really came out of that whole experience for
both of us, you know, And in terms of healing,
like I also had always thought of it as kind
of like maybe if there was any healing at all,
it would be like in me finding answers to questions
I'd always had, and in my birth parents like knowing

(50:12):
that I was okay and like maybe not having to
like regret their choice if they had ever regretted it.
I mean this is also, I now know, like a
really simplestic way of looking at it, but like that's
what I was thinking, Like if we're able to offer
each other any like closure or healing at all, Like
surely that's what it will be. I had not thought again,
like what like what siblings could like need, um if

(50:34):
they were in the picture. Um, Like I wouldn't presume
to say, like I've healed my sister, and it's it's
even like maybe a little too reductive to say she's
healed me. But like we both really needed each other,
Like we both really needed for various reasons, like that
kind of family connection that kind of like like support
uh and mutual aid um, just like knowing that someone

(50:57):
was going to be in your corner no matter what,
Like I get lost inliche is sometimes when I talk
about it. But like I mean, I think we both
needed that that type of relationship, and it wouldn't have
occur to me that I could provide that for somebody
like I. I don't know. I just figured, like if
I had siblings, they would have been fine without me,
like they've been without me their whole lives like that.

(51:18):
In Cindy's case, she had no idea I was alive, um,
And so like, I don't know. At so many points
I was like are you sure? Like why, like why
are you wasting time with me? Like in a way,
because like what, I didn't know what I had to
really offer, um. And it was really only after like
meeting her in person and talking about like what our
families and our upbringings were like, and like thinking about

(51:41):
her life then you know, just like I started to
wonder like if there was something that she needed that
I could provide too. So I don't know. I mean
that's how it started. We're several years on now, let's see,
like at least twelve years, and we're still really close.
I missed her a lot. I don't know what I'm
going to get to see her because she lives across

(52:01):
the country. Um. But you know, up until like this year,
we tended to see each other at least once sometimes
we were lucky, and like it was twice a year.
I don't know how do even express it in words sometimes,
like I guess I'm not that good at a rider,
but like she really is in so many ways, just
like this steadfast um presence and like she's so strong

(52:23):
and she's so compassionate. She really is like like my
hero in a lot of ways. Um So I just
feel really fortunate that like this thing that I never
would have expected to come out of my search is
what what came out of it. And not just for me,
but again like for my kids, you know, she's just there.
You know, she's just there, charent Cindy, like they have
always known her. They don't remember not knowing her. And

(52:44):
like actually, like I don't know, for both my niece
and my kids, like I think they like to like
ask questions and hear about the story again because like
I mean, for them, it's just the way it is.
It's always been this way. They've always had each other
like us in their lives. But like I think it's
interesting to them how like it wasn't necessarily going to
be that way, Like if we hadn't both taken steps

(53:08):
to kind of put our family our family back together
in this way, like you know, they wouldn't know each other.
So I don't know, I don't know, Like I I'm
definitely rambling now. No, I love it. Heart feels so big. Yeah,
I just feel really again, just really really. Um. I'm
just really thankful that like that's what happened, because it

(53:30):
was not something I ever would have you know, I
would have expected. And I love that you have a
support system and through all of this became such a
beautiful story of bonding. Um, it was beautiful. Like I said,
it was written so well that I was just like,
that's fantastic. It always just like this a fiction. Thank you,
I mean, and thank you for reading it. I also

(53:51):
am conscious of how, like you know, I sometimes feel
like adoption stories hit really close to the bone for me. Um,
it's interesting. I kind of struggle more with it sometimes
in fiction, like where it's like a plot device. I
sometimes do better if it's nonfiction. But anyway, like I
appreciate you spending time with it because I just feel
like there's an extra emotional investment. Maybe maybe there's an

(54:12):
extra reward too with if you identify with any part
of it. Did I felt seen and I loved that
even though the story was different, there were still like
parts of this was like yes and and you. For
the lack of better words, like not necessarily a happy ending,
but things that made sense and coming together for you
does feel somewhat fulfilling for me as a person who

(54:34):
doesn't have that open apportioned to my or that insight
to that half of my life. So it's really nice
to see as well as being able to again feel represented.
Like I told Annie a while ago, one of the
only books that I've ever been able to read that
had anything to do with anything about me outside of
like having at least a Chinese person in the Babysitters

(54:55):
Club was just as long as We're Together by Judy
Blue Adopted Yes a young girl, um, and it made
me feel like, oh wow, well look there's someone else
who they're treating as a normal child having, you know,
and she's as an adolescent. This is beautiful. So to
see more and more, it's so important and it's so

(55:17):
wonderful to see. And yeah, I'm not gonna lie. I was.
I was hesitant because I was afraid of the things
that it may bring out of me. And I've had
to work out so much as a social worker in
this field trying to advocate for kids who are in
foster care and such. But seeing this story UM, not
only because yes, transracial adoption is is different from the

(55:38):
adoption within the U S and we know this UM
not just within the US, but within the cultures and
what it looks like and again what it has this
whole fetish size fairy tale behind it, and that's what
you see is representations. I'm like, oh God, what's wrong
with me if I'm not that perfect story that came
out like that. But to see something that's like, yeah,

(56:00):
this is the reality. It's not all bad, it's not
all great, and this is how it became. It was
a beautiful life to see that wasn't mine. That made sense.
So thank you for writing and thank you for coming on.
I'm not gonna lie again. I've been so excited and
kind of nervous emailing. No, I really appreciate the invitation. Yeah,

(56:21):
and thank you, m Annie. Sorry, no drining moment. I'm
so sorry. No, this is so great. This is so great,
and you you touched on like all of the things. Yeah,
we were kind of outlined on how we were going
to talk about the book. This is gonna be perfect. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

(56:46):
I guess I would just like to say that as
someone who does right, I've never considered writing a memoir,
but as a podcaster, we sometimes experienced that sort of
vulnerability if people know a lot about us but we
don't know them, And so I almost feel a little
strange asking me your personal questions about your life, even
though you who wrote the book. But I did appreciate, um,

(57:10):
how you painted the complexity of family and you talked
about um like the origin stories we often tell ourselves
and then questioning that and what that meant for you, um,
because I do think that even um, my dad wasn't adopted,
but he wasn't raised by his parents, He wasn't officially adopted.

(57:31):
And I didn't even know who my real grandparents were
until h well, I thought I thought my other grandparents
the day they weren't related to me and I didn't
know it. But like they were, these stories we tell
and having to come to terms of just how complicated
your feelings can be with family and why you tell them. Um.
So I was it was lovely to see that nuance

(57:54):
and complexity expressed. Uh. And I don't know if there's
any piece of that that you feel like you can
speak to or you want to expound on in terms
of like writing like a personal story for like public consumption.
You mean, yeah, and just like the kind of origin
stories we tell ourselves, I'm obsessed with those, like I, Um,

(58:15):
I don't know. We we can all think about those
stories and our families that have been told so many times.
It's like you might have you probably have like no
memory of it yourself, like probably many of them took
place before you were born, but you're just like, yeah,
that was like established fact, and like like there's just
no questioning that stuff is like bedrock. Um. And I
when I was writing the book, I was thinking about
how like questioning that can feel like questioning someone's religion,

(58:38):
you know, or like they're very just it's such a
deeply held personal belief. And yet that I think if
you're going to think about adoption or like any family
topic with real complexity, you have to build in a
little bit of space for questioning those like like the
family lore, and for like thinking about the people who
aren't there or whose voices maybe just aren't the loudest.

(58:58):
But that's the other thing I've noticed and families like
without naming names, like, I'm sure we can all think
of people in the family who, like it's sort of
like their take on things ends up being the dominant
take or like the people whose opinions are like kind
of the loudest in the strongnest. But that doesn't mean
other people aren't having like wildly different experiences or might

(59:18):
not have different opinions. And so I mean that's just
like a factor in every family, whether or not adoptions involved,
whether or not there's something like dramatic or whether there's estrangement.
You know, there's always there's always other perspectives. So now
I like to think about all that. Personally, I find
origin stories fascinating because they are literally what make us,
and like they form our world views in a lot

(59:40):
of ways. And yet like so much of the like
the biggest questions and like the hardest work and the
most interesting writing also comes from like when you start
to reconsider like those long held truths. I mean, I
just I love that stuff, and so yeah, I mean
I like to read it like beyond even beyond them more.
That's sort of like themes I look for in general.

(01:00:03):
I look for it in stories that I edit and publish.
I just like I always love to see a writer
asking those big questions are like challenging, like a dominant narrative. Yeah,
I mean, I think that's where a lot of the best,
like the best stories wind up coming from. Annie Spine.
More notes for her fan fiction. I write other things

(01:00:25):
and fan fiction, but I don't know. I don't believe you.
What do you do? You don't want me to. You
don't have to say no, no, no no. I write
um primarily Star Wars Original Trilogy and Harry Potter. Yeah,
and right now, the one I'm writing on right now
is two d and fifty pages, okay, and so tragic.

(01:00:51):
It is what I've discovered. She will always come up with,
oh my god, the things I've done to my characters.
I'm so sad about it. Sometimes I feel legitimate guilt. Sorry,
keep going. I just wanted to push that in Always
I'm telling people your your hobbies, thank you. I'm sure
it's not without embarrassing me, not at all. I'm proud

(01:01:14):
of what you do because I could not do it.
I've written many of things, and they're all short stories
because I'm like and I'm done. Sort stories are so
hard though, Like just the I'm like, how do you
do it? How do you like create? I can't do
beyond that because I'm like, I'm done now. It's such
a I'm just like, how do you have the arc
and the characterization and the setting, I mean, the basic

(01:01:36):
building plots of the story in a very very small space,
knowing you don't get anymore. Like that's it. I think
that's actually magic. I feel like I know writer's best
when I can get their short stories like that. I
think that's why I love like Southern Gothic, because a
lot of those writers start off with small essays. And
I love that death because I like that mystery that

(01:01:57):
it involts. Anyway, this has gone to it completely difficult.
I'm sorry, eight no questions that I just cut you
off of. No, this relates a great segue. Um. Do
you have any projects that you're working on that you're
excited about? Oh gosh, I mean I'm always like working
on like essays here and there. I've like started unfinished
novels and I have sold my second book, so I'm

(01:02:18):
working on another work. It's I mean, I keep calling
it like a memoir and essays. I think it'll feel.
I think it'll feel quite different in form than all.
You can never know, but um, but yeah, it's it's
it's going to be like essays revolving around like grief
and class and my I mean, I actually sold it
before my mother, my adoptive mom passed away earlier this year,

(01:02:40):
just three months ago, and it's strange to be writing
about grief in the midst of this. This. Also, I
wasn't actually anticipating when the books sold, but I mean,
I think I have a lot of work to do before.
I think it'll just take time. Um, but that is
the next thing. It's been sold, so I do have
to deliver it. Um. So yeah, it'll it'll be a
why oncoming. But that's very exciting, um to read the book,

(01:03:04):
not the process. Sorry, um. And yeah it's you. I've
read a few essays you as you were talking about
um writing uh doing grief and what would because I
think people as you talk about it, it is cathartic
for people as well as there's many writers who are
going through some really tough times, whether it's grief of

(01:03:27):
a love more like you said, what is your advice
on that and how do you care for yourself At
the same time, yeah, I feel much less qualified to
give advice in this because I feel like I'm not.
It's honestly just been really hard because I don't have
Like with the first book, I had several years of
removal from it, and this is all just really fresh

(01:03:48):
and it's really raw, and in some ways like that
means the emotions very easy to access, and in other
ways it could just feel like a flood sometimes I can.
I find it seems very overwhelming. So like, in terms
of taking care of yourself, like I mean, I do,
I give myself permission to take breaks, sometimes quite long ones.
I recognized how much of this book will probably like

(01:04:09):
take form when I'm not writing, so like when I
when I do step back and go for a long walk,
or like really think or look through photos or just
like remember my parents. Um, like, I think a lot
of a lot of the work of this book will
It'll have to be done like well, I'm not writing,
which is which is not to say writing isn't still
the job, because it's the job, but I'm learning as

(01:04:32):
I get older, how much of writing is everything else
that you do too? I mean and specifically the time
that you take just think and just be um and
ask yourself questions and like you know, try to answer them.
So much of that work is interior, you know, or
you could actually do it with friends and family, but
it's so like it takes place away from the computer

(01:04:52):
screen and then hopefully you go back and you've got
a clearer vision and you've got more focus and you're
feeling the plenish and you can tackle like the next,
the next thing. But it is it's a really different
experience from writing the first book, and which was fast.
I mean I wrote it in like ten eleven months.
I think this will take longer and I think it
will be harder. I joked about it on Twitter recently.
I was like, I found it really hard to revisit

(01:05:14):
things I've written before, and like, eventually I developed kind
of a deep loathing for everything I wrote, like, let's
say more than three years ago. So I'm not saying
the book sex because buy the book and read it.
But what I mean is like, as a writer, I
do feel like I always have my best works ahead,
Like I have to actually believe that in order to
keep writing, because it's hard. So um yeah, I mean

(01:05:35):
I keep telling myself like, this is difficult, but like
if you can do it, like I think it will
mean something and I think, you know, I hope it
can be. I hope it just builds on like what
I've done. And again, you always just hope it means
something to someone. Where can people find you? I'm at
Nicole s J Chum on both Twitter and Instagram. Yes,

(01:05:56):
and that's how we found you. It's online, um And
yes you should also if you haven't already read her
book all you can ever know. It's not just for adoptees, obviously.
It is a beautiful story about relationships, love, finding yourself, childhood, children,
all the things, all the good things in there. So
I'm really thankful to you both for like reading the

(01:06:16):
book and taking the time. It was my pleasure to
be here. Thank you so much. And now you are
also one of the people that I will call a
close friend because this is what I do. I use
the show to make friends with people. Sorry, checks out.
I think that's fine. I'm gonna tell everyone this is
my close friend Nicole. Yeah, you're gonna read her book.

(01:06:37):
We've talked for a while. I think I think it's
a solid and that brings us to the end of
this very special edition of book Club. So thank you
so much Nicole for joining us. I cannot say how
much this meant to me on a personal level, and
and we do want to eventually come back and revisit

(01:07:00):
the conversation of females and women, baby girls being adopted
more so than boys and sons, in this whole conversation
of why our son's preferred over daughters. And I know
this has been in a conversation before in our podcast previously.
I know the controversy of trans racial adoption has already
been talked about, but kind of digging deeper up this

(01:07:20):
value of you know, male or female and then the
complexity of adoption how it gets intertwined. So we do
want to talk about that too. For those who are like, wait,
this is not specific to feminism, get it, um, but
it's uh, it's it was such a personal thing for
me and um. Having her as a writer who is
a strong mother, sister, daughter, in playing this whole scenario

(01:07:46):
her life out for the public has been a privilege
to discuss with our So again, thank you Nicole for
being a part of this. For those who stuck around
and listen to the whole thing. I hope you did,
because it was really fun for us to do. For
for me specifically, thank you for listening and kind of
digging into what it is to see in this type
of life and childhood. Yes, yes, absolutely, and uh I

(01:08:10):
cannot recommend it enough. It did occur to me that, like,
I don't know if it's made the final cut, but
you kept bringing up my fan fiction and she Nicole asked,
what fandoms are you writer? Do you write? I was
like Harry Potter and Star Wars, which are both like
use adoption um as kind of a plot point, and
you were what you helped me understand that better for

(01:08:32):
my fan fiction, Semantha. It came to Leah and Luke.
But yeah, yeah, so just in thinking about that, how
often we do see that intermedia? Um? But yes, yes,
uh so thanks again to Nicole. If you have any
recommendations for our next book club, we're all ears, thanks

(01:08:53):
to anyone, to everyone who's already sent them. Um, we
are keeping a list, we do. You keep track, but
keep them coming. You can email us at Stuff Media,
mom Stuff at iHeart media dot com, or you can
find us on Twitter at Mom's Stuff podcast or on
Instagram at Stuff I've Never Told You. Thanks It's always
to our super producer Andrew Howard, thank you, and thanks
to you for listening Stuff I've Never Told You the

(01:09:15):
protection of I Heart Radio. For more podcast on iHeart Radio,
visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows.