SMNTY Book Club: Unladylike

For our inaugural SMNTY feminist book club, we're digging into "Unladylike: A Field Guide to Smashing the Patriarchy and Claiming Your Space" with the authors, Cristen and Caroline!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stuff
I'll never told you a protection of iHeartRadio's house Stuffworks.
Be finally, finally, our launching our Sminty Feminis book Club. Yay,

(00:26):
it's been a long time coming. Please start sending in
suggestions please. We already have a few good ones. Oh, excellent,
kind of excited. Yeah, I've gotten some that. I'm definitely
very very excited about our first iteration of it. I
was gonna include the creators. I don't think we'll be
able to do that every time, but this time, right, Yes,

(00:48):
and it'll be two voices you should probably recognize, Kristen
and Caroline of Ladylike to talk about their book on
Lady Like a Field Guide to Smashing the Patriarchy and
Clan in your Space. And also yes, former hosts creators
of this very show. It was super meta and a
little intimidating for me because I started out as an intern,

(01:14):
young naive, didn't know much about feminism on this show.
I was intimidated then, and it's just it's been my
job for so long, I was the video producer, and
then to see them go and create this badass company
and write this book and their podcast and then be

(01:36):
on this one when I sort of have this this
whole history. It was a little it was a little
intimidating and kind of meta in a weirdness. It was meta.
I think I think they felt that too. Yeah, it
was odd. It was like we were in two different
timelines and we were converging or something. It's true post
and the present meet exactly exactly. But we had an

(01:59):
amazing conversation and I guess we should just go ahead,
hop right in, let's do this thing. Today is a
very special day. Today is the inaugural episode of our
book club, and we were so excited to get this going.
And as many of the listeners already know, this is

(02:22):
the amazing episode with the lovely Kristen and Caroline of Unladylike,
What Hell creators and host Subsementia. Now with Unlady Like,
would you like to introduce yourself? Okay, my name is
Kristin Conger. I'm happy to be here and I'm here

(02:43):
with my work wife and co host and co author,
Miss Caroline Irvin. Hi, I'm Caroline Irvin. I'm as Sagittarius.
I was born in Atlanta, and I am the other
half of them lady like media. Yeah, so how do
you feel like being born and Sagittarius is a very

(03:10):
unlady like sign. I also am a sage Kristin. Kristen's
only like a week younger plus a year. Oh wow,
I totally feel like I identify with the good parts.
Oh I like that. That's selective. Yes, I'm very selective. Yes,
astrology is wonderful as long as you're really selective about it.

(03:31):
I also feel like I identify with the bad parts
of being as Sagittarius. But I do feel like anytime
you're talking to someone and you mentioned that you're a sage,
usually get a like oh yeah, like immediate Underland. We
just interviewed a Leo with a Virgo moon and she

(03:51):
was thrilled to hear that she was talking to two Sagittarians.
I was like, cool, So next question. Yeah, well I
will look more into that later because I don't know
much about astrology, but you, Samantha, you bring it up
sometimes I do because I am absolutely a Libra as

(04:13):
you like balance. I like balance. I'm a little stubborn.
I got all the things under all the sign. Yeah,
I'm about justice and everybody chill out sounds good. I
like that. That's about how apparently I'm a little dramatic too.
I didn't think I was. But every now and again

(04:34):
she wishes, Hey, hey, let's keep this family. Can care
ki kids? Come on, come on, well, as this is
book club, we are here to talk about the book
that the two of you wrote. Congratulations. First of all,
that is no easy feats at all, and we were

(04:56):
both super excited to have you in here to talk
about it, super excited to read it. It is beautifully illustrated,
beautifully written. So thanks for being here. Could you give
us kind of a brief overview of the book and
what made you decide to write it and kind of
go the route that you did. Yes. So, the book

(05:16):
is unladylike a field guide to smashing the patriarchy and
claiming your space, and what it is is essentially a
top to bottom, head to tail, inside out look at
how gender works, where our very ideas about gender came from,
and also within that how patriarchy in particular, along with

(05:40):
all the other isms of racism, enableism, classism, all intertwined
to sort of shape the worlds around us and our
experiences in that and we really just kind of wanted
it to be a holistic feminist life guide slash like

(06:02):
semi self help manual. Yeah, we really wanted to reach
an audience of young folks. Sort of the target demo
was like folks just maybe out of college encountering these
isms in the real world for the first time. But honestly,
we've been really thrilled to have such a range of readers.

(06:23):
It's been really exciting. Yeah, I mean, it's in a
lot of ways, it's the book that we wish that
we had when when we were younger, when we were
even before, like getting into college and getting out into
the real world. But the Journey of unladylike both, I
would say, really the book, but even the podcast as well.
Started at a women's leadership conference at Clemson University where

(06:48):
a student asked us a question that left us kind
of scratching our heads, and rather than offering her a
succinct answer and forgetting about it and going on with
her life, was we kept thinking about it ended up
writing a whole book, Sokara, can you kind of pat So? Yeah,
we had done this talk on imposter syndrome, and a

(07:09):
bunch of young women came up to us after the talk,
and this one particular young woman said, listen, like, here
I am at this engineering school, I'm in classes with
so many more men than women, and how can I
speak up when I'm about to be shouted down at
any moment? Like all the time, I feel like I'm
always talked over. And you know, we did give her

(07:32):
some like basic advice, you know, like kind of you
go girl stuff, you got this, But on the car
ride home back from Clemson, we started thinking about, like
what would be some better advice because you know, there
are some really great books out there. You know, you
have Bad Feminist by Roxanne Gay, you have Yes Please,
you have Bossy Pants, you have all of these awesome

(07:53):
like memoirs and essay collections out there. But we kept
trying to think, like, what would be a more as
Kristen said, holistic guide to taking on some of these
issues that actually gets at the context, at the why.
Because we really felt like once you understand the why
why things are the way they are, that sets you

(08:13):
up way better to tackle the actual issues. And so yeah,
we started kind of brainstorming about, you know, would we
do Lady bios, would we do you know bios of
women from history. Would we just talk about dead women?
Oh God, we have to expand our vision. And one

(08:34):
of the reasons why it really stuck with us was
by that time we had been hosting stuff I've never
told you together for a number of years. We had
just been so immersed in like gender and feminism and
all these different facets, and the fact that we did
not have at the ready, like an easy answer to

(08:55):
what is a pretty straightforward question, like really through us
for a loop, and also thinking about like the identity
of this particular student who was asking us, because she
looked a lot like Caroline and me I e. She
it was a white young woman like sis gender sitting
there surrounded by all sorts of privilege you know that

(09:16):
comes with that. And if our like privilege is not
enough alone to like bulldoze through, then what are we
really looking at? And we realize that, like the bigger
question underneath all of that is like, well, okay, it's
the question is like, well, how how do you smash

(09:37):
the patriarchy? Like is that just a cute phrase? And
then what do we do? Once you smash the patriarchy?
You have to get your broom and clean it up?
Because that's also women's job. You cannot leave a mess
for someone else to clean up. Yeah, and so what
do you do after you smash this patriarchy, which is
honestly an ongoing act. It's it's all about claiming your

(09:59):
space so that you have a place to speak up
and maybe actually combat the feeling that you are about
to be shouted down at any moment. Yeah. I recently
was reading an articles as we ended the twenty ten
so we moved in the twenty twenties, and it was
talking about what is this future, what's going to happen?

(10:19):
And it had this whole section of I won't go
into the weeds because I'm a nerd. I love this stuff,
but post industrial economy and how that might be better
suited towards the women. And it was one of the
first time, not that I think this is going to
be quick or easy or maybe in my lifetime, probably not,
but I'd never even thought about what will happen, like,
what would happen if the patriarchy was gone, what would

(10:41):
that look like? What would that be like? I always
bought me to tears just thinking about it. And I
think it has been such a time of change really
quickly when it comes to a lot of the things
you tackled in this book. So it felt really timely.
And as someone who I learned a lot from both
of you, I was somebody who got out of college
and was just I didn't know. I didn't know a lot,

(11:03):
and there were a lot of things that I did
that I didn't realize were internalized misogyny or whatever it
might be. So I think that the time of this
is great, and I think how it's approachable for people
of all ages who might not know those things, and
it's sort of easy to digest and see it. And
the artwork and illustrations. Oh yeah, Tyler, Tyler fetter Y

(11:26):
so wonderful. And we have literally, as of this recording,
never met Tyler in person. Really, we encountered her on
the internet. I literally met on Twitter, yeah, and Kristin
Kristen reached out to her to see if you know, like, hey,
we don't I don't know you, but illustrate my book. Baby. Yeah.
Tyler was so instrumental to bringing unladylike to life because she,

(11:49):
without even like needing instruction, really understood that the kind
of representation we wanted to present in the book that
at some point, like you will whoever you are, whatever
your background, like you will see yourself reflected at some point.
Because also as like two white feminists to feminists who

(12:11):
are white writing a feminist guide, we also did not
want to just write another like white feminist guide and
going to like your point, Annie of sort of like
even envisioning a world without patriarchy, like and what that
would even mean. Another gap that we were trying to
fill is how sort of siloed feminism and gender conversations

(12:32):
can be. Like we'll talk about, oh, you need to
negotiate and like break some glass ceilings at work. Oh,
you know, like gender equal relationships, whatever that means. But
like a lot of times I feel like those we
never kind of take the bird's eye view of how
all of those things intersect, Like we don't. We're living

(12:53):
our lives in a much more like kind of fluid way. Yeah,
and it's easy to say, like go break a glass ceiling,
but it's another thing to actually understand how our different
identities intersect in a way that makes that a lot
harder for certain people than others. And that's like we
cover that. We have an entire chapter about money because

(13:13):
that's not just something you can like touch on and
be like one and done, just try to negotiate a salary.
Go girl, There's so much more to it. Yeah, So
we talk about money. We've got a chapter on mental health,
on our bodies, on beauty, on just the I want
to say mystery, but it's probably not so much of
a mystery, mystery to the patriarchy that is the uterus,

(13:39):
and we talk about like we unpack rape culture. We
also devote a chapter to activism, so really trying to
like again top to bottom, it's the clips we sometimes say,
well because also and it was necessary to do that
in our minds, because patriarchy is insidious, right, Annie, you
mentioned internalized misogyny. I mean when you talk about pay patriarchy,

(14:00):
we're not just talking about your like white boss, right,
We're like talking about a system that is so deeply
ingrained in our culture to the point where, yes, it
is even something that women uphold a lot of times
white women uphold, and so we wanted to sort of
interrogate and investigate how it snakes its way into every

(14:20):
corner of our lives, right, Yeah, And kind of going
off of that, obviously, feminism is a big topic and
it touches a lot, as does the patriarchy. And you
were talking this kind of early process of what do
I put in here? What do I have in here?
How did you arrive at what you you went with? Well,
we had a word count, true, always so by word count,

(14:43):
I mean we we wanted to put twice as much
as we could have. How did we really kind of
whittle it down? I mean I feel like we knew,
we knew the big kind of like topic areas that
we wanted to cover in terms of like body image,
beauty standards, money, mental health. But it took a long

(15:05):
time of shuffling those post it notes around quite literally
to figure out, like, well, what is the chapter? Is
the chapter when you're really young, when you're middle aged,
when you're elderly, or is it like when you're a student,
when you're a professional, Like how are we organizing all this?
And we kind of wrote two books, three books? How

(15:27):
many books did we write in the process of writing
this book? I think too too. Yeah, it was definitely
quite a process of just figuring out what went where.
But yeah, we knew the basics, we knew we had
to address the ways that things like mental health and
gender and race and ethnicity intersected with all of these

(15:49):
other aspects of life, And I think like a big
guiding question too, was what kinds of fastest of our
lives and facets of gender do we tend to take
for granted? And how can we actually pull the lens
back and provide real context as to where these ideas

(16:12):
even came from, what they even mean, and how they
apply and intersect with all of our other identities. So
really trying to constantly ask the question of but why, yeah, well,
and what is unlady like? Because definitely, in the course
of doing too much research and going down too many
rabbit holes, there's a bunch of information that didn't make

(16:34):
it into the book. Sure, but a lot of it
too was like wait, wait, wait, wait, let me back up,
Like this is interesting, this could potentially be helpful, but
how does it tie into the idea of what is
unlady like? How is this helping contextualize feminism and patriarchy?
And ultimately we had to define for ourselves, like what
is unlady like? It's going against expectations of gender, it's

(16:57):
going against expectations of sex. It's not just some tips
and tricks that are handy to pull out. Yeah at
a time. Yeah, it's not about etiquette so much as
again going into the research portion, especially in looking at
how our cultural idea of gender roles in womanhood, where

(17:18):
that even developed, and who was allowed to be a
lady in our society versus whoever wasn't, And it very
quickly crystallized that ladyhood and this idea of sort of
gendered respectability politics in a way, which is what white
ladies like initially leveraged in order to get any sort

(17:40):
of like social power in terms of suffrage and things
like that. But then realizing that ladyhood encompasses so much
about the problematic aspects of white feminism and digging beyond
just sort of the platitudes of yeah, gender equality. Right. So,
speaking of which, when it comes to inesectionality, you talk

(18:00):
a lot about very perspective on women of color, black women,
women of disabled who are gendered all of that. How
did you go into researching this because obviously I say
this as an Asian woman, I'm very one perspective. This
is what I know. I'll know it from white culture
because I was raised in white culture. How did you
come about in researching to make sure you had the
appropriate information in representation, as well as being a voice

(18:24):
for white women to be like, hey, we need to
look beyond our own selves and what is problematic and
what isn't. How did you guys go through in researching knowing, guessing,
I don't know how to put what in the book? Well, yeah,
I mean just from terms of like identity standpoint, as
you're talking about, we just we were very very strict
with ourselves about keeping that whole identity piece front and

(18:47):
center as we did everything. It was sort of one
of the guiding principles in terms of how we approached
all of these topics. It's like, we know we are
too like white, straight cis middle class, college educated women,
but we can't only address things that affect us. So
if you try to just move away from that singular

(19:07):
perspective and bring more people into the conversation, the research
and then the writing will be that much richer. Right,
So with that, what you have in here is awesome
because I was reading through and it was very beautiful.
The illustrations were very beautiful. I felt represented. Thank you,
thank you very much. How do people who because let's
Basically a lot of our listeners are white females, Sam

(19:31):
with a big quick For those who are seeking to
go beyond their own worlds or beyond their small friend groups,
how would you say for them to do it? Obviously
you've got some stuff in here in the book, but
it grows, like the continued knowledge is bigger and better,
whether it's the sixteen nineteen movement or whatever. As we're
listening to and hearing about today, how would you recommend
for someone who are seeking to go beyond their own

(19:52):
small world We've got a motto. We've got a moto
for that. We have a motto. I mean that motto.
So we have have an overall like guiding motto for
everything that we make for unladylike. It's certainly baked into
the book and it's also in like every podcast episode

(20:12):
that we make. And our motto is stay curious, build empathy,
raise hell because throughout like our personal and professional journeys,
like that has been the theme of what has gotten
us to this point. As fellow nerds. You two know
the power of just staying curious and relentlessly asking wait, wait, wait,

(20:36):
bo why boe why and like seeking out the information
until you can find it, and that curiosity cultivates empathy,
and empathy is so core to looking at the world
through an intersectional lens of actually opening your mind up
to be able to have difficult conversations and to even

(20:58):
to think beyond your own in group, and then taking
that and putting it into action, which we call raising hell.
I feel like you can raise hell. You know, we're
not talking about necessarily like burning down building. Okay, there's
a spectrum. It's not necessarily arson, but that can be.
That can be in everyday ways, whether it is having

(21:22):
conversations that you feel uncomfortable having with your partner or
with a friend, calling out that racist uncle at the
dinner table, whatever it might be, or going into your
boss and being like, I'm going to race some hell
in my own life and quit my job and go independent.
By I don't know anything about that. I do want

(21:45):
to come back to that racist uncle thing, not for
my own No, I just feel like a lot of people,
a lot of listeners, writing questions about that specifically, how
do I hand? Maybe we should go ahead and talk
about it as feminists and ones that raise hell. I'm
sure we're all familiar with kind of different shades of

(22:05):
blowback or are you having those moments of do I
engage right? And if so, what is going to be
the most beneficial? And you talk about that right a
little bit in the book at the end, So could
you go into you if you have anything that's worked
for you or just general for that racist uncle and
you're like, okay, is this the time? What do I do? Yeah?

(22:26):
One thing that we preach a lot is just asking why.
So on the one hand, we preach asking why for
your own education and enlightenment right to get the context
to understand to be a better feminist and a better human,
But we also preach actually verbally saying why to that
racist uncle or whoever else in your family is racist

(22:48):
or other ists, because being confrontational calling someone a racist
or a sexist tends not to work out very well conversationally.
Turns out people tend to shut down. Yes, so it
tends to also reinforce right those ideas, It makes them
tends to be people more defensive, right, right, And so

(23:10):
we definitely advocate asking why why do you believe that?
Or it sounds like you're saying xyz thing is that right? Oh? Well,
why do you think that way. Here's how I thought
it worked. And the more you can sort of productively
kind of challenge someone's ideas alongside them, the more productive

(23:33):
your conversation can be. Yeah, something else that comes to
mind is something we talked about a lot on an
Unladylike podcast a while back with a guest named Francesca Ramsey.
She has an amazing YouTube channel. She does all sorts
of stuff, but this is sort of her one of
her specialties, and she focuses a lot on calling out

(23:55):
versus calling in. So when you call someone out, that is,
you know, pointing out America's racist uncle and saying that's wrong,
what you just said is totally messed up and here's
the reason why, and kind of putting them on the spot,
And sometimes that can be effective. However, what is often

(24:15):
more effective and goes more to what Caroline's talking about
in terms of starting an actual dialogue or at least
attempting to. I mean, the other person might just be like,
I don't want to talk about those is calling in.
So actually pulling someone aside, not like putting them on
blast to publicly shame them, although again that can be
an effective tool, but you also have the other tool

(24:37):
of really trying to with an open mind, trying to
sit down and actually have a conversation, to understand where
they are coming from and actually see why they even
want you to know their opinion. It's a particular thing. Well,
and I find that storytelling is really effective too. I mean,
here we are, we're four podcasters in a room. We

(24:58):
understand the value of talking and sharing stories. And I
very personally in my own life recently have had conversations
with two different people who honestly just had questions about
certain gender and identity issues and we were able to
have a conversation about it, and it went really well

(25:19):
because I was able to share stories from my own life,
stories about people I know, And that's a much nicer
way to illustrate something. Not to argue that you should
believe in someone's humanity, because of course you should, and
if you don't, like I can't really help you not
be an asshole. So if you do find yourself in
a place where you actually are having a conversation with

(25:41):
this racist uncle or whoever, storytelling and sharing these personal
stories from your own life can be such an effective
way to help them see the benefits of basically having
an open mind slash minding their own business. And I
feel like this is also a lesson that Caroline and
I have learned learned, like in the process of being podcasters,

(26:04):
like so much of even us walking into a lady
like with an intersectional perspective, I attribute to things that
we really learned, specifically from stuff Mom've never told you,
listeners who called us in via email and we're like, hey,
I appreciate what you're doing, and I see your good

(26:25):
intent execution could be improved. Here is how and like
and those kind of moments like I appreciate, Like, it's
why it's why podcasting is so amazing, because there are
those it can create, those kinds of relationships and those
kinds of exchanges that we just don't really see that
much of on the internet in particular, where it's just

(26:46):
all hot takes, right right. Yeah, that's a good point.
I've never really thought about kind of listener correction as
being hey, I know, and it's and you you have
to kind of practice the whole like open mindedness, cutting
down your defense to say, defense of white women's syndrome,
nothing worse. Yeah, you gotta get white ladies. You've got

(27:07):
to get past it. You gotta allow yourself to be criticized.
White ladies who've had to get past it. You got
to get past it. Yeah, it'll be so much better
on the other side. Oh, I guess kind of related
to that. I feel like a lot of people hesitate
or shy away from the label of feminism because there
is this expectation that you have to be perfect otherwise

(27:29):
you are a bad feminist, which prox Saint Gay did
help kind of turn that on its head and was
amazing for me personally. But how have you found because
you've been you've both been in this world for a while,
have you found like a balance of having confidence in
your voice and saying no, this is my space and

(27:50):
I deserve to be heard. That's a good question. I
mean I haven't. No. I was about to say, like
from birth thanks to my mother. I was like, oh
so hashtag work in progress. No, I was raised by
a very strong slash. I don't know what other adjectives

(28:14):
that I can vibrant? Well, yes, I was like, okay,
if I'm going to be bleeped, what else can I say?
Just vibrant. She's a vibrant woman who would definitely not
describe herself as a feminist. She literally came to our
very first book event at Agnes Scott College and walked
up to Er Anderson, who is the executive director of
Kara's Circle, who was helping put on the event. Kara's

(28:36):
Circle is the nonprofit arm the foundation arm of Karras Books,
which is the oldest feminist bookstore in Georgia or in
the Southeast, I believe it's the Southeast anyway, put on
this wonderful event. My mother like walks right up to
Er and is like, I'm not a feminist. I don't
know where she gets it. I was lucky enough to

(29:00):
have two parents who would have like literally killed for
me and made it safe for me to always be
kind of loud and self righteous, and thank God, through
a process of socialization, being in college, starting to podcast,
I've definitely become better at pointing that energy in a

(29:22):
more like concentrated productive direction. See. I feel like I
took and am taking the opposite course to sort of
the same destination because I think the thing that has
and continues to sort of ground my feminism and my
confidence in it and my ownership of that label is

(29:48):
learning about the context and again like having some facts
and some know how to support like yeah, yeah, no, no no, no, no,
this is this is real what I'm talking about, and
these things do you make a difference. And this is
not just an empty label. I mean but even like

(30:09):
the term feminism too is so can be so slippery,
because we also don't want to get into the territory
of feminism just being a catch all for whatever a
woman makes up her mind to do. Therefore is feminist
because it is a woman doing things right, which I
think is often how it is unfortunately like portrayed. But yeah,
it's for me, It's it's all about context and grounding

(30:32):
myself first and also taking some time for self reflection
and asking myself like why I do feel these particular
ways and what kinds of personal experiences have shaped my
feminism Because similarly to you, Caroline, like I was not
raised in an overtly like feminist home. Oh god no,

(30:55):
like my I will never forget my dad loving dad
tell me, oh, well, uh you know, I know, I
know you're a feminist, but you're not like one of
those glorious stinus Oh I love it, which I was like, oh,
you have no idea dad, but even worse. But at

(31:17):
the same time, like they raised an accidental feminist because
they were very much on the like feeding and supporting
like curiosity as a kid. So yeah, it's funny, So okay, Like,
so I was answering more of the question of like
finding my voice. It was kind of a thing of like, well,
I actually had to like tone it down and refine

(31:38):
that voice. But yeah, in terms of feminism too, it
was another thing of like I was a slowly boiled frog,
Like I don't know a time when I didn't believe
in these sorts of philosophies and worldviews, but it just
became crystallized as I got older, did the reading, did
the listening, and figured out that there was language and
history and context around these things. And yeah, and so

(32:01):
that is definitely a thing of beauty because no, I
was not raised in a household where either of my
parents would have been like down with feminism. Well, and
I like one thing I think about to you in
terms of the insecurity that I, my younger self has
had with calling myself a feminist, you know, in like
everyday conversations. The point that I had to come to

(32:24):
with that was not asking like, well, what's wrong with feminism?
Do we need a different term? But rather asking myself
like why am why am I uncomfortable with possibly making
other people uncomfortable and possibly making other people think that,
you know, if other people think that I'm a man hater,
why is that my problem? Right? So, my roommate's dad

(32:46):
came to visit recently, and while he was waiting for
his daughter to get ready, he took a look at
my bookshelves, which are stocked with all sorts of subversive things.
And by that, I just mean like a couple of
feminist books in some novels, you know, like, but it
was when I say subversive, that's heavy air quotes and

(33:07):
it's subversive to him, yes, And he asked his daughter.
He did not ask this in front of me, but
he asked my roommate, so, uh, what kind of feminist
is Caroline? And she's like, what do you mean? And
he said, well, is she the like equal rights feminist?
Or is she like that I hate all men feminists?

(33:28):
She was like, well, Dad, of course she's like equal rights.
And I was like, well truth a day, but yeah,
but I but I do think that that's so funny
because I think perhaps a younger me would have been
concerned similarly of like not upsetting people, but like, I
don't want you to think that I'm mean and won't
listen and can't have a conversation and then I'm a bitch.

(33:51):
But yeah, as I've gotten older, also, I care so
much less about what other people think about meaning so much. Yeah,
I think that's what happens with age. Yes, start loving
the th that, hey, I'm just gonna go brawl us.
I don't care if i'll hand down. You're welcome. We
have some more of our conversation with unladylike, but first

(34:12):
we're gonna pause for a quick break forward from our sponsor,
and we're back. Thank you sponsor. Going back to the
bad feminism thing and how people, I think for some

(34:33):
people they shy away because they feel they can't hold
themselves to these standards. And I was that way for
a while. And I think that this is great because
it has chapters on things that we a lot of
us have a lot of anxiety around, like beauty or
you're like, well, am I supporting the patriarchy by doing
these things? Does it mean if I wear lipstick then
I'm a terrible feminist get out exactly exactly. So I

(34:56):
think it's great to have kind of as you said,
some people just have questions or some people just want
something to be like, Okay, no, this is all right.
I should think about why I have anxiety around it. Yeah,
but it's all right. We were discussing earlier when we
were talking about doing this that as you were pitching
this book it was twenty sixteen, yes, and you were

(35:20):
perhaps per pitching there was a different thing in your mind. Yes,
oh yeah, we were pitching a book for like a
feminist manual for this incredible age when we have the
first female president, and isn't feminism just like the Loveland now?

(35:41):
Like literally, like I fancy it's for all. At one
point when we when we finally we started actually writing
the book in twenty seventeen, and there was a point
when I had to stop and I was like, why
does this feel so difficult at this moment? And somehow

(36:02):
I like ran across like the initial like little kind
of like cover letter for the book, and I was like, oh,
because I thought we were writing it for a totally
different era. Okay. In our editing process and with our
actual editor, there were like so many Trump references that
had to be taken out. She's like, you want your
book to be evergreen, right, Yeah. The first draft I

(36:24):
think was us just like working out a lot of
initial anger. Yeah, so much anger. I was gonna say,
how would have changed now with a rerunning some of
the things that some of the mistakes that had happened
when you were first starting this book. I mean I
was okay, funny you asked smath because I was just
kind of thinking about that recently and like, what what

(36:48):
will be the next step, because like, regardless of what
happens in twenty twenty, and the thing that I came
back to was the white feminism of it all and
the problematic white lady ness of it all, and that

(37:11):
that is still a message that the white women need
to understand. I'm not articulating it well, but I know
what you're saying. No, I understand what you're saying. I like, no, no,
You're okay, I get what you're saying. Maybe because I'm like, yeah, well,
because there was first the shock of like, oh wait,

(37:32):
we America actually wanted to elect a racist misogynists like
orange human okay, and then there's been this kind of
slow roll out that I've noticed of white women in
particular still being shocked by white women in particular being

(37:54):
complicit in all of that, upholding all of that. Also
if we look at voting patterns like here in Georgia,
for instance, the twenty eighteen election was also a big
moment for me of like, Okay, maybe we need to
rewrite on ladylike, but just make it okay, dear white ladies,
pick up this book please, because Stacy Abrams was running

(38:19):
for governor, and the exit polling of that election was
so disheartening because so few white women were comfortable voting
for her. And that was also something that I heard,
particularly from older white women in my life, who would
not explicitly say that they weren't on board with her

(38:42):
because she is a black woman. But I could read
between those lines, and I think that that is there's
just still there's a long road to host still for
a lot of like white feminism needs to be I'm
making a gesture like I'm weeding y uprooted. Yes, yeah,

(39:04):
I like that gesture, or say, if you wanted to
add to it, oh well, the only thing that I
would add would be in terms of like what would
we potentially rewrite or do differently At this point, it's like, well,
not all that much, honestly, because we're still in a

(39:25):
same rerun bucket of sick bleep. So thank you, thank
you for helping us out anything I can do production,
including this conversation we're having about it. You already kind
of touched on this a little bit when we were
talking about finding you a voice and all of that,

(39:46):
because you do have a section about imposter syndrome, which
obviously is a huge thing still and will be for
a long, long, long while. Even as our new election
is coming on and we see the erasure of Elizabeth Warren,
and I find that one more kind of caveat of yeah,
this is why we have been imposited in Rome. Here's
this woman who we've been told that if she was

(40:08):
the elect before, she would have won because she's so likable.
But well we're here and we're being told, oh, no, no, no,
she's not really that like I. It's not that I
it's not that I wouldn't vote for a woman like
I would totally vote for Elizabeth Warren. It's just like
she's not the one running. It's Hillary. And now that
we're like, we're here, all right, y'all. Like, let's well,
I would totally vote for a woman, but but but

(40:30):
not any of these women who are running, right every time?
Can I just can I like nominate a woman from
like my neighborhood. I actually like told my grandma, oh
my god, oh god, I'm leaving. God, I'm leaving. All right,
I said the tea word that word. But yeah, but

(40:52):
with that, I mean that just kinds of adds to,
oh my gosh, these people who we see as the
standard of possibly succeeding are not succeeding, whether Sacy Abrams
as we talked about before, or Elizabeth Warren as we're
talking about, And it kind of adds to that whole
imposter syndrome once again, and you guys dive into it.
What do you say for and then you know, we've
talked about it many times, you've talked about it many times,

(41:13):
But what do we say for women who let's say politically,
because I want to talk to those who are thinking
about running, because we need more and more and more
representation out there about those who may be experiencing the
imposter syndrome and or breaking that down or how to
break away from it. Well, something that I think you
said earlier, Samantha jumps out in terms of starting with

(41:35):
a worldview that is like clear eyed about the realities
of sexism, racism, unconscious bias. That there is so much
research on now in terms of voting behaviors and things
like that. So I think that not to say that
like you have to assume that it's going to be
terrible and that you will win, but also understand that, like,

(41:57):
these are the forces that are in place. And one
thing that we really tried to focus on in the
women that we profile in unladylike like a Shirley Chisholm,
who also ran for president in nineteen seventy two, so
when she was running, Patsy Mink, a representative from Hawaii,

(42:17):
also ran the same year, and they understood very clearly
that their chances of winning were slim to none. And
the reason why they did it anyway was for the
visibility of it, so that women could see that women,
especially women of color, could and should run. That if

(42:40):
we keep waiting for the time to be right for
someone to be electable, let's say that you're going to
be waiting until you die. Yeah, Shirley CHISHLM has the
quote it's time to make that someday come. I feel
like we should start singing. Yeah, I write a song.
I don't have a song, So I don't know if
that's like a super hopeful message or not. But like
with the women that we revere from history for their accomplishments,

(43:03):
one thing that we discovered very quickly in actually digging
into all the things that led up to those accomplishments
is that there's usually a lot of struggle and troubleshooting
and failure and trying again that comes along the way.
And that's something I have to remind myself of, Like
if we think that like all of our icons are

(43:23):
just these like perfect women who are able to just
go out and elbow their way into the history books,
Like no, it takes. It takes work, And that's okay.
It takes work. It takes work. It takes, like Kristen said,
acknowledging the things that you will be up against, like sexism, racism,
the likability bs, but also understanding that there are concrete

(43:47):
steps that can help you build your confidence and build
the people around you who can then help lift you up.
So making those connections being accountable. You know, I feel
like people always talk about accountability with like their New
Year's resolutions, like tell a friend, and then they're going
guilty for it. But the same thing kind of almost
applies for running for office or you know, even if
that's like school board all the way up. Just telling

(44:08):
people that you love that you have this idea that
you want to do, finding people who will stand alongside you,
starting to ask people about like would you support a
campaign if I did something like this. Just getting those
initial questions and connections rolling is a great place to
start building your confidence. Yeah, and also just taking a
look at the hundreds of available elected offices, like you said, Caroline,

(44:33):
it might be school board, it might be county coroner,
Like there are all different kinds of things, like we
often think of like women running for office as running
for the office of the presidency, but looking at what
fits your skills, telling people the sooner the better to
get that accountability going. And also the good news is
that I do think there are so many organizations now

(44:57):
that have developed and strengthened to specially since twenty sixteen,
like an Emily's List in Georgia. Here there's the win List.
There are so many groups that are focused specifically on
getting women into office, getting women the tools that they
need to actually run a campaign. So, I mean, there's
never been a better time to run for office if

(45:19):
you are a woman. And also one thing that yeh,
and here we go announce that I'm running for president.
Podcast president done of this room? Wait what you don't
have my vote? Damn you're not likable, don't I know it?

(45:40):
No another thing I will say, so like, as you
are doing your confidence building and you're talking to people
and you're being accountable, please please, please keep in the
back of your mind just how many unqualified men are running, right,
and just let that light a fire under your ass.
What motto did Lacimo leave us with? Oh what would

(46:02):
Chad do? Yeah? What would white Chad do? Oh? Your
poor dad? I know my dad's name is Chad. So
we interviewed. We interviewed Lacey Mosley, who hosts the hilarious
podcast Scam Goddess, and we asked for any advice from
her at the end of the episode, and she gave
us a couple tips, and one of them was like,
lead with the confidence of a mediocre white man. What

(46:24):
would Chad do Chad would run for office, He'd be like,
if not me? The new speaking of mottos in your
imposter syndrome, at one point you do talk about a
mantra or sayings to have to shift to a realistic perspective.
Do you have a mantra? And if so, can you share?
So I have a new one. I'm very excited to

(46:46):
share this. So I go to therapy a lot, and
my therapist just introduced something to me that I literally
I don't do this. I mean, I have things that
I'll like repeat to myself every once in a while,
you know, as good reminders. But one thing that I've
saying to myself a lot is it's okay to do
what's right for you. I don't want to be gender essentialist,

(47:10):
but I feel like a lot of women still in
this day and age twenty twenty are, you know, putting
everyone else first, and it is okay to do what's
right for you, whether that's asking for something or taking
some sort of action. And I have been saying that
a lot because I feel like there's a lot of
stuff in this world that we as women are made

(47:33):
to feel guilty about, shamed of when we really don't
need to be carrying that guilt or shame around because
it's not our effing problem. Again, it's not our problem
what other people think of us. So yeah, that is
that is my current like one that I'm saying. I
also think that can apply to anyone who feels like

(47:55):
they are not worthy of the mantle of feminism in
terms of thinking of it as like all of these
rules and actions that you have to abide by, like
let that go. For myself in terms of a motto,
I also am deep in therapy and one of the

(48:16):
most important things that I have done for myself in
the past year is make a concerted effort to talk
to myself as I would a friend, because nobody can
cut me down faster than I can myself, and that
is such an easy trap to fall into, and it

(48:38):
is like so self reinforcing. Like if I'm spending all
my time tearing down everything that I do, if I
can't believe in myself, who's going on? Right? I like that?
Jumping into another portion of your book because that is
what I'm want to do is book club, We're going

(48:58):
to talk more about your book. So about modesty. Yes,
And one of the things that I was hitting me.
You did a whole bit about dressing modest and talking
about whether or not they feel supervocative. Did I do
this the question stage of whether it's an assault, whether
it's cat calling, whether it's being ignored. Was the way
I dressed or was what I look like the problem?

(49:19):
And this was actually a tactic once again used by
Donna Rotuno from the Harvey Weinstein case with So you
guys are familiar because we kind of spoke on this
on our update about attacking her, her sobriety, attacking her modesty,
attacking her just willingness to be there. Do you have
any thoughts about how to come to a point that
we can try to end this nonsensical approach that is

(49:40):
still happening obviously in very very big and in the open.
Thank you. This is what happens in the big, open open.
I don't mean to be glib about this, but it
seems so obvious to me that if we knew that

(50:05):
a uniform of turtlenecks and baggy sweatpants had the power
to prevent sexual assault and rape and harassment, would we
not all be wearing sweatpants and turtlenecks every day. It
all be walking around looking like Elizabeth Holmes? What do
you mean? Now? Do I tend to wear turtlenecks and

(50:31):
or sweatpants pretty much every day? Yes? I do. However
that is not the reason why. But you know what
I mean, Like, if modesty were as potent a force
as we are taught to believe, I mean, I very
much grew up in a modesty household. Ooh boy or
should I say who? Girl? Or ooh any gender? Okay,

(50:56):
if it were such a potent force, Like, how how
would rape culture even exist? Right? Right? Yeah? It is
something that's too deeply embedded at this moment slash throughout
history to be uprooted just by changing into a sweater.
Because when we all agree, I mean, it's it's a
widely accepted fact. I think we can say that sexual

(51:19):
assault and rape has existed since time immemorial, and that
takes into account all the different fashions that humans have
ever have ever warned and we've never no, haven't figured
out how to do that, like maybe tunics maybe, like
how many more like millennia do we need to understand
that it's not about the clothes? Well? And also, I

(51:41):
mean take into account the fact that the majority of
sexual assaults occur from someone you know as someone who's
close to you, and we tend to talk about this
type of thing as like some boogeyman jumping out of
the bushes because you're wearing a short skirt, you know, like, ah,
I can't control myself, and it's like that, that's not
the math doesn't add up. Yeah, stranger danger is like

(52:06):
sort of the least of our worries. Statistically speaking, we
do have a little bit more left for you listeners,
but first we have one more quick break forward from
our sponsor and we're back. Thank you sponsor. So we

(52:32):
did want to also get with our listener emails and
listener questions, and some of them are pretty open and
broad to talk about it. These are from Instagram. So
these are the questions. I came from Instagram and one
of the Instagram followers home Sweet Bakery. Oh cool, Hi, Yes,
I know cakes delicious, Your cake delicious, most cupcakes delicious.

(52:54):
I went and stocked who are your favorite boss ladies
and what makes them your favorite? Ooh, I mean definitely
surely Chisholm, because bring a folding chair to the table.
If there's not a seat at the table, bring a
folding chair. There we go. Probably one of my favorite
boss ladies just because of that attitude. She was not
gonna wait like we said earlier, she was not gonna
wait for some day to come. She was gonna make

(53:15):
some day happen. Now. She was also just like more
than just being like a lot of amazing talk, she
was also just an incredibly effective politician who cared so
much about the people she represented. There's nothing not to admire.
That's a double negative. And I apologize. Yeah, I mean
a go to that feels really obvious, but nonetheless important

(53:38):
is Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Yes, because not only is you know,
she obviously a badass on the Supreme Court, but also
just her journey to get there. I know this really
has nothing to do with feminism, but I am convinced
that the woman does not need sleep. Because there was
a time when she was in law school, so was

(53:58):
her now late husband, and he got sick. I believe
he had to go through cancer treatment. He was like
down and out. She also had a baby at the time.
She went to classes for the both of them and
got them both through that period and managed to raise
a child and also get on the Supreme Court's she

(54:20):
can fit in your pocket. I can barely do all
my laundry. But Kristen tell the people about her connection
to Polly Murray. Oh okay, So one of our unladylike
icons of the ages is a woman named Polly Murray.
And she was in law school a little bit before
Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and she was really sitting at the

(54:41):
intersection of gender and race, and she really sort of
developed the legal foundations of what we think of as intersectionality,
of realizing that there was not a space in the
law that took into account the discrimination that women of
color face, both as being women and being women of color,

(55:03):
and sort of the double jeopardy that that would put
them into. And she dedicated her life, her scholarship, her brilliance,
her allyship to really forging out a lot of what
would become the legal background for second wave feminism. And
Ruth Bader Ginsburg would go on to cite Polly Murray

(55:26):
in the case that she argued before the Supreme Court
that established gender discrimination as unconstitutional for the very first time.
So two amazing women, but also amazing again that Ruth
Bader Ginsburg is one of those white ladies. Yes, she
actually cited the work of a black woman who came

(55:47):
before and established this scholarship, right, which just phenomenal. Yeah,
so he got another one from our friends patron Saints
of pop culture. What is your all time favorite feminist
movie TV sho and why? I mean? I will say
Buffy the Vampire Slayer is hard to talk as far
as a TV show, Annie, I know you're a Fanily

(56:11):
and I only watched it for the first time like
a few years ago, and it has aged well. And
I mean watching Sarah Michelle Geller like kick some vampire
boutet still gives me a lyft. This is a really
weird answer. Just please roll with me. I'm gonna say

(56:33):
Outlander Claire is like such a feminist and I love
how it becomes part of the culture clash of her
going back to the eighteenth century. It's a time traveling show.
Speaking of time traveling, one of my new favorite feminist
movies is Little Women, Greta Gerwig's Little Women. It is

(56:54):
a feminist reinterpretation. I was unprepared for how much I
was going to love it, And if you'll haven't seen it,
definitely do, and I mean shrill Sex Education is a
show on Netflix that I'm loving. In terms of books,
I mean there's too many. Did she ask for books? Oh? Sorry,

(57:17):
I mean I'll limit it to on screen media. We
only want to have one book. There's only one book,
and my favorite feminist book is unlady like promote. You're
doing this wrong. Ashley J. Sanche asked what old school

(57:38):
Sminty episode would you redo on ladylike style? Oh? Uh, colorism? Colorism, Absolutely,
that's so colorism. We we you know, we talked about
black women, light skin, dark skin, discrimination, all of this stuff.
But the thing is when we did that episode, we
did not actually interview any black women. We talked at

(58:00):
the issue, we broke it down, We did our Sminty
thing of giving the history and the context and the
explanation of it all. That was an episode where we
heard from a lot of black women who were like things, Yeah,
I'm glad you're talking about it like it's important, But also,
do you maybe think it would have been better to

(58:21):
invite a I don't know black woman into the studio.
So yeah, and that's like to kind of jump off
that really quickly, Like that is definitely One of our
guiding principles of Unladylike the podcast is to bring in
people to tell their own stories rather than us talking
about other people's stories. So yeah, I would in a

(58:43):
heartbeat that would be one of one of mine. Yeah,
a big goal for ours with the Young Lady Like Podcast. Ironically,
question Mark is that we wanted to talk less and
listen more. M what would you redo? We're going to
just go with theirs because I was like, you've got
one through episodes. I know more than that. Leslie wrote,

(59:06):
I love how much you fit in the book, but no,
you probably had to leave a lot of information out.
How did you decide what you put in the book?
I'm currently reading it now and love it so sort
of what I asked earlier, but that is I'm sure
I how did you even start? Well? And then how
did you find all of the people that you put
into highlight? How did god so many more people, so

(59:28):
many more people than made it into the book. That
was one of the first things that we did, because
when we were even putting together the idea for the book,
we were thinking, like Caroline mentioned earlier, like there were
all these kind of feministy memoirs of like an Amy
Poll or a Tina Fame and de Kaling, but they

(59:49):
were just like individuals stories and we were like, well,
we have run across like so many incredible women that
I bet we could glean advice even for you know,
today's situations from them. And so one of the first
things that we did, because honestly it was just like
some fun homework, was let's find all of the coolest

(01:00:11):
women we've never heard of and put them on a
sheet and maybe we'll ride about all of them. Yep,
and we almost we almost did so. Originally the structure
of the book was that okay, yeah, you would have
the individual chapters, right, but within each chapter and this
is how the book is set up. Within each chapter,
there are sections of information and we were going to
have a bio of a person, not at the end

(01:00:34):
of every chapter, but at the end of every section. Wow,
And our editor was like, are you in so how
many days? How many volumes? I know, it's like a
twenty six volumes set. So yeah, there are a lot
of rad women we didn't get to include. But we
have just launched a Patreon called extra unladylike where some

(01:00:57):
of our episodes are getting to tell those those women's stories,
which is which is fun. Yeah. And in terms of
like deciding like what to put in there for each chapter,
something that really helped was starting with just a list
of questions we wanted to make sure that we answered
and everything else in addition to that, if it could fit,

(01:01:19):
would just be you know, gravy, nice gravy. God, there
it is. Who's cool? We carry on? You know, like
the kids say that slaps the kids say that do
the kids they do? I had slap bracelets as a kid.

(01:01:41):
They were very dangerous. God, I don't know. There was
a girl in first grade, Meredith. I was so jealous
of her because not only did she have like really beautiful, long,
dark brown hair, but she also showed her status by
wearing slap bracelets like up her forearms. I was like,

(01:02:02):
oh my god, she has so many slap bracelets. I
bet Meredith would feel so good to like Meredith today
would be like, oh you remember me for that? Yeah,
slap bracelets. That's what we're talking about. That was Usn't
that what we're always talking about is ultimate. I've never
heard of that slap so I'm very confused. Anyway, this
is a question from Facebook. Kathy wrote and asked how

(01:02:25):
scary was the branch out on your own? What clued
you in that it was time to start unladylike? Also,
will you be my unlady like friend? Kathy? First of all, yes,
love to be your unladylike friend. The point that I
knew that it was time to go was I had
reached a point when I was itching for more kind

(01:02:47):
of of a creative sandbox in terms of the podcast,
because by that point Caroline and I had literally recorded
like hundreds of episodes where it was I don't want
to say just us, but it was us like talk
having discussions amongst ourselves about all of these topics, and
as stuff Mo've never told you was kind of getting

(01:03:08):
off the ground in those early years, like the podcast
universe at large was also developing, and people were kind
of branching off and doing interesting things with audio. So
on the one hand, it was a desire to just
flex our creative muscles and see if we could tell

(01:03:30):
stories about feminism and gender in new sorts of ways
and reach new listeners that we otherwise could not as
long as we were to sis straight white women talking
to each other. Yeah, and also you got really inspired
when you went to a women's podcasting conference and just

(01:03:50):
frankly saw the possibilities out in the universe for how
to play in that sandbox and just sort of what
the possibilities were creatively, at acatorially all of it. And
when we got the book deal, that is ultimately what
enabled us to leave our day jobs and start on

(01:04:12):
Ladylike Media the company, and so we had a little
bit of cash in the bank, and ultimately that is
what allowed us to pursue it. You know, if we
didn't have if we didn't have that financial boon, it
would have been a lot harder to step out. And
so while there was fear and you know, a little
bit of imposter syndrome, a little bit of concern, ultimately

(01:04:35):
we were like, we have to do this. We have
to be able to walk the walk and do what
we've been encouraging our own audience to do, which is
own your stuff, claim your space, get what you deserve.
And that made it a lot easier to then step out.
And I think some important context too, is that you

(01:04:56):
and I did not set out to become podcasters, like
they didn't even exist when we were in high school.
This was something an opportunity that I feel super fortunate
that it became a part of my job because after
I started how stuff works, then podcasting became a thing
and it became an opportunity that I could step into.

(01:05:19):
But once we were in the space for a while
and kind of had like our wherewithal, it was kind
of the first time that I know, for myself personally,
like it was the first time that I set my
sight on something. I don't know. I don't want to
say it was the first time I had a dream.
But I'd always played my life pretty safe. I never

(01:05:40):
envisioned myself not only like in the podcasting space, but
just in the self employment space, like that seemed what
what am I doing? But the timing just felt just
felt right and also too, I mean, leading up to
all of that, the Internet in twenty sixteen, leading up

(01:06:00):
to that election was such a dumpster fire that I
coasted just on rage for a good six months. I mean,
I wasn't scared of leaving. I was just like, oh, yeah,
we're going to do this. So she was the kool
aid man. I was the kool aid man. I kool
aid faked it till I made it, and by that
I made it into my therapist office. He smashed through

(01:06:22):
the wall of the office and left. Yeah, it was
it was once we were then actually in the process
of developing a new podcast, establishing a new business and brand,
and writing a book all at the same time, and
also like attempting to like have a life beyond that
when it started to actually get scary. And I'm so

(01:06:45):
glad that it took a while for the fear to
come because if oh, yeah, it hadn't you know, like
you've never would have happened, Right, if we had known
what we were in for, Like, the rewards have been
great in terms of being able to create this brand, right,
the book, all of this wonderful stuff, create a community
around what we're doing. But yeah, if we had had
an inkling of how intense it would be, it would

(01:07:09):
have been I think harder to make that leap. Yeah,
So timing was perfect, timing it was the best of times.
It was the worst of times. That's fair. Well, I'm
so thrilled that we could have both of you here
to do this because you've been inspirations for us and

(01:07:29):
I know for a lot of listeners, and we're so
eager to see what you continue to do. Hopefully collaborate more.
Any listeners who haven't read the book, please do it,
because it's well written, real researched, and it's just like,
I don't know how to It's hard to envision a
book that is about so much like intersectionality and feminism,

(01:07:50):
all these things that we sort of don't really like
having to deal with. I don't know it was I
read it, and I loved it. I keep handing mine out,
Caroline Yellow. Yeah, so I would buy them and then
handed out and be like I'd buy another one handed out. Yes,
Samantha kept giving it away, and so Samantha, JESU this book.
I want you to read what I inscribed out loud,

(01:08:13):
so it has to be bleeved for sure. This says,
this belongs to Samantha, very large capital letters. Don't give
this away, asked love Caroline. That's about right, So she
wants I told her I did it because Annie kind
of did the same thing. Loaned it, and I was like, hey,
we need to we're gonna get all things together. She's like,
do I need inscribe, Frany. I'm like, you mighty have to,

(01:08:36):
because I can't give mine handy. I can't give mine
away give this is gonna be a really awkward exchange.
But also for those out there who are wanting an
introduction to what feminism looks like today and why intersectionality
is important, this is a great book. I've given it
away to teenagers and younger people because I think it's

(01:08:58):
a fantastic guide. As you said that we never had
things that we had to guess and then try to
figure out what feminism really meant instead of the big
bad F word. And I think this is a fantastic,
fantastic book to get to everyone, male, female, non binary,
young old. Give it to them. Thank you Soman much
and and you know what, I'm also really glad that

(01:09:20):
we ended up taking the unlady like leap, because otherwise
we wouldn't be sitting here at the table talking to
these amazing co hos so stuff. I've never told you.
You know, we love you. It's mutual, I heard, But well,
this seems like the best finally making book club happening

(01:09:45):
having you here. Thank you? Where can listeners find you?
Do you have anything? I know you do? Exciting coming out? Yes,
it's hitting the road. We're doing an East Coast tour.
Tickets around sale. It's in April. Doing an East kicks
off April twenty six in Chicago. Call It kicks off
April twenty second in Chicago at Lincoln Hall, where we

(01:10:08):
will be meeting face to face for the very first time,
the one and only Unladylike illustrator Tyler Fetter. Yeah, it's
very exciting. It's like the biggest blind date of my life.
It's going to be amazing. I hope we love it.
Hope she likes us. I know that's a good question,
but yeah. You can definitely follow us at Unladylike Media

(01:10:28):
on all of the social media's. If you want to
write us a love letter, it's hello at Unladylike dot co.
We also have a private Facebook group because we're cool
like that. And uh yeah, you can go to patreon
dot com slash Unladylike Media to directly support us. Thanks
so much for having us. Thanks you all, fun y'all

(01:10:50):
for coming in. We're at the end of our first
our first book club. Yeah we did it. Hey, we
did it, and thanks everybody who sends in questions. That
was really awesome. In the future, we're hoping to maybe
have like an interactive wine or non alcoholic drinking part
of this. Yes, yeah, you know, cocktail, Yeah, in a cocktail, yes,

(01:11:14):
or one or the other exactly exactly, yes, but we
really need you to send in your suggestions. Send in suggestions,
and then when we start talking about the fact that
we're going to do it, send us questions. Be a
part of that. We want you to give us opinions
because it's probably better than what we have, or at
least it will add to well, okay, yeah, yeah. And

(01:11:34):
also just if you are there specific tropes or themes
you want us to dive into with these these books,
because otherwise, Samantha knows, I might just read my fan
fiction and you don't want that. And you can email
any of those questions, suggestions thoughts to Stuff Media mom
Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can also find us

(01:11:56):
on Instagram at Stuff I've Never Told You and on
Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always to our
super producer and Drew Howard, and thanks to you for
listening Stuff I've Never Told You. The production of Iheartradios
how Stuff works for more podcasts from iHeartRadio, was the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows,