December 26, 2018 • 50 mins
Recently, Cardi B's ex interrupted her concert to beg her to take her back, and some of her fans called 'toxic masculinity'. It has us thinking about how men handle (or don't) rejection in this classic episode.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hi, this is Annie, and you're listening to stuff Mo've
never told you. You might have seen this story in
the news lately. During one of her recent concerts, Cardi
B's X interrupted the whole thing to beg her to
(00:29):
come back to him. They had recently split over allegations
that he was cheating on Cardi B. And he had
this card of roses that spelled out take me back Cardi.
It was a whole thing. She did not look impressed.
Some news outlets do speculate that it was a big
PR stunt, but Cardi insist she was surprised by his appearance,
(00:50):
and as of recording this, I haven't heard anything differently
in either case, though. This is something I have seen before,
and I have experienced myself. Not the sold concert thing,
but a woman working and a man publicly interrupting to
demand your attention to emotionally manipulate you. There was a
guy once who wanted to date me, and he showed
(01:11):
up at my office with flowers with no warning, and
he expected that I would think this was a very
romantic thing, but instead I was very annoyed and I
had to take time out of my day. I had
to let him down easy, and then I had to
explain to my co workers who were expecting this sweet
story what had gone down, and they clearly were like,
(01:33):
oh no, it's so sweet, you should give him a chance.
And this is why I do not want a surprise
public engagement. Not that I ever plan on getting married,
but I have thought about this. There's a time and
a place for an apology, and it's not sprung on
someone in public while they're working. One fan of Cardi
(01:53):
B's wrote on Twitter, tonight should have been about Cardi
headlining the Rolling Loud Festival. Instead, it's all about out
what this dude did and how she reacted. No convos
about her performance. In fact, it's stealing thunder even from
other performers. Tonight, that's selfish, a f that's manipulation. Another wrote,
this public campaign is actually classic harassment. Women are always
(02:17):
expected to do the emotional labor of men, no matter
how badly they are betrayed or hurt. It also kind
of reminds me of that Jason Drulo song what You Say,
which is yeah, a throwback, but he's like, look, I
know I should have treated you better, I shouldn't have
cheated on you. But we've belonged together. So sorry you
caught me, but let's just move past this already. Come on.
And I don't know that's my interpretation of the song.
(02:39):
Perhaps you have a different interpretation. As we discussed in
our stocking episode, I think a lot of movies have
pushed this narrative that something like this is romantic. It's
not worth noting. Cardi b has asked for people to
stop bashing offset, but I would say that the whole
(02:59):
insta it is a wonderful example of men and not
handling women's sexual rejection in the best way. And in
this classic episode, we take a look at why that
might be. Please enjoy. Welcome to stuff Mom Never told
(03:19):
you from how Stop works dot com. Hello, and welcome
to the podcast. I'm Christen and I'm Caroline, and today
I'm gonna talk like men. We're gonna talk about rejection,
and we're going to talk about how a mind dating
offers documentary proof the guys fell and students you have
(03:45):
a hard time getting turned down sometimes. Heck, yeah, the
Internet is sort of a scary landscape. It is. And
should we go ahead and offer a disclaimer that, yes,
some women have a hard time with rejection sometimes as well,
and overreact getting turned down, especially if you're being sexually
(04:07):
turned down. Well, rejection is hard. Rejejection is the worst.
Rejecting is pretty bad too, But I mean it can
rejection of any kind can really sting, and and that
is not a gendered thing. It's a fact of life.
Rejection is the worst, and we hate it, we all
struggle with it. But there are some things that put
(04:28):
certain people at risk of being a bigger jerk than
other people when it comes to rejection. Yeah, I mean
this is a particular pattern when it comes to straight
dating and especially straight online dating, although it is more
of a thing of straight guys dating, I should say,
because the recipient of the offer, whether it's to you know,
(04:52):
have a drink bought or a date or sex or whatever, Um,
she can be of any orientation. Whatsoe her. It's really
more you know, straight guys processing being turned down and
what God is thinking about this whole thing was an
incident that happened on the internet in late August. Yeah.
I was actually on vacation when this happened, and I
(05:13):
just remember seeing, um, my internet, my personal internet, blowing
up over it. So BuzzFeed writer and comedian Grace Spellman
got a series of tweets and Facebook messages from this guy,
Ben Shane, who is a former Harry Potter podcast host
(05:34):
and who's also the co founder of the website theem Inspire.
He was clearly trying to charm Miss Spellman, and uh
he I guess it's an understatement to say that he
didn't really charm her. Yeah, the whole incident was kind
of bizarre because they had friended each other on Facebook
(05:55):
nine years ago when Shane was hosting this pot cast
called muggle Cast, which was super popular um and Spellman
was a fan, so they became friends on Facebook, but
they were weren't in contact whatsoever. So this time in
August was the first time he was messaging her ever,
so totally out of the blue, and at first he
(06:19):
was full of praise. So in one Facebook message he
sent her, he said, you do a remarkable job of
making your quirky personality shine through online. It's hyperactively beautiful.
And to to this, Spellman says, thanks, no, thanks, I've
good a boyfriend, wish you well turn him down politely. Well,
(06:44):
he was not too happy about that. No, No, that
would be also another understatement. He responded with a slew
of of not so nice messages, including just because you
work at BuzzFeed doesn't mean you're good. Good luck find
meaning and all of that garbage you call content. And
he also, I mean, he got more personal than that,
(07:06):
and he just wouldn't stop. He was contacting her on
all sorts of platforms just to tell her that she
was the worst. Basically, yeah, I mean, because it really
exploded when she publicized the private, in sensant private messaging
that he had been doing. And then of course that
only fanned his his outrage, and at one point he
wrote her an email saying, I was so angry and offended.
(07:28):
I wrote a draft putting you in your place, but
then he decided against it and wrote her this email instead.
But what was interesting to see was this White Knight
turn that it took when he issued a press statement
touting his fem Inspire cred saying I've done more for
the cause of advancing women's rights than any of the
(07:50):
people who are criticizing me. Um. Because this is after
Grace Spellman publicized this incident to her large Twitter fall
allowing and people kind of came out of the woodwork
saying either what a cree But also this has happened
to me before, and also yeah, this is why he
you know, I left them Inspire or why he is
(08:14):
not on our podcast anymore, etcetera. It does seem to
be fair that Ben Shane has some personal issues going
on that have led him to separate from other people
in his professional life, and that perhaps that behavior is
why he's no longer with the certain ventures that he
had been with before and what possibly led him to
(08:36):
be like incredibly creepy with Grace Spellman. But that about face,
going from you're brilliant and hyperactively beautiful and charming to
you're no good at all. All of your work is garbage.
I mean, that kind of about face is something that
we see happen so often anecdotally but now documented via
(08:57):
online dating. And this whole incident prompted Jessica roy Over
at the Cut to relate this to the broader pattern
of straight guys, in particular fellas we love you, but
straight guys not wanting to take no for an answer.
She writes, the whole exchange is pretty emblematic of the
(09:18):
inherent difficulties of rejecting men both online and off. Women
are frequently made to tow a line between being polite
enough not to set off a suitor, but not so
polite that their manners are interpreted as flirting. And when
I read that, I could immediately relate to what she
was saying. It totally resonated. Yeah, and it resonated with Spellman.
(09:40):
She agreed. She says, you can't win in these types
of situations. Even if you're polite in your rejection, they'll
demand that you tell them why you did it. It's
just a mixture of entitlement and the fragility of ego, which,
by the way, as we will get into it a
little bit, is backed up by research. Spellman speaks the truth.
She goes on to say, because you don't know how
they're going to handle it, you don't know if you
(10:01):
should be afraid or not. So the result is this
catch twenty two that comes up often of guys asking
for women to be straightforward and honest with them, which
is totally fair. That is a very reasonable request. Who
wants to be let on? Answer nobody unless you are
just a sucker for pain. But if she is in
(10:26):
fact straightforward, you can then be punished for being too straightforward.
Then you're a jerk or a word that we you know,
can't really say on the podcast. Um, and we should acknowledge. Yeah,
I mean some women do lead guys on. Some women
do put men in holding patterns of you know, wuying
(10:46):
their companionship but not wanting to take it to a
relationship level of sort of like I'm gonna, you know,
float on you for a little bit until I find
a guy that I do want to date. That does happen,
and that's not an okay pattern either. Um. But when
I made a YouTube video about this whole thing, the
comments were split between guys saying it would just be straightforward,
(11:10):
be honest, and girls saying when I was honest and straightforward.
I got so much blowback from it, and sprinkled in
that too, a lot of anecdotes from girls dealing with
guys not taking no for an answer in the sense
of if you say you're just not interested, that's really
(11:32):
not sufficient. They want to know why. They want an explanation,
and typically the only explanations that shut it down completely
are I have a boyfriend, or you hold up your
hand to show off an engagement ring or a wedding band,
and that will usually get them to stop. Which is
interesting how the primary way to get a guy to
(11:55):
take no for an answer is not for you to
say no, but rather for you to present another man
next to you, either literally or figuratively. Well, it seems
that that's the only way to put a stop to
a sense of entitlement to you, access to you. I UM.
I had an awkward moment in college when a friend
(12:16):
of mine told me that he had feelings for me,
and when I responded compassionate, I mean he we've been
friends for years. When I responded very you know, compassionately
that like, I understand, and I'm really sorry, but I
don't feel the same way. Like I love you as
(12:36):
a friend. We've been friends for so long. I just
am not on that same romantic wavelength. He got very upset.
I got very upset. We talked, and we I thought
made up, but then when he offered to like take
me out to dinner for tak us to let things
blow over, I was like, oh, good, like things are
back on track. It was actually a ruse because he
(12:59):
had taken me out for echoes to demand an explanation
of why I would not date him, saying that everything
we do and we hang out together is the same
thing that couples would do, or that a girlfriend and
a boyfriend would do, So why can't you just be
my girlfriend? And it made me really sad because it
made me realize that he must be feeling really powerless
(13:20):
in our friendship if he's telling me that I need
to change the way that I feel and change but
I'm doing to come over to his viewpoint of things.
The old Taco Ruse, Karen Taco Ruse. And the thing is,
so many of us have stories like that of having
(13:41):
to deal with what happens when when someone catches feelings.
But this whole conversation, especially when we look at in
the context of online dating and more of the hook
up culture side of things, it's not so much catching feelings.
It's more wanting to catch bodies. And if you cannot
catch that body, then you will send a series a
(14:03):
very mean text messages or okay Cupid messages that completely,
you know, turn your attraction on a dime, and suddenly
this woman is just the worst thing ever. So weird
to look at these messages because there are plenty of
blogs and things like that that now post them for
(14:23):
all to see and it's so weird to see like, Hey,
you're so hot, I want to date you. I'm being
very euphemistic with what I say, um, and the minute
the woman's like no thanks, so she doesn't respond, the
guy goes immediately to well, you're ugly and fat anyway,
and I don't want to date you, and nobody else
wants to date you, quote unquote date you, so just
(14:44):
never contact me again. It's like, whoa were you just
having a completely different conversation than I was. Wait, I
thought women were the crazy ones. Caroline, what happened? Yeah.
The fact that the Daily Dot published guidelines for dudes
getting rejected on tender that included quote once someone makes
it clear they're not interested in talking to you, stop
(15:05):
talking to them kind of points out that this is
something that happens now. I'm sure that your patients, if
you are a straight dude in these kinds of online dating,
scenarios can wear very thin because it is more of
a woman's game, a street woman's game with online dating,
because of the whole narratives, the broader social narratives as
(15:28):
men as the pursuers, women as the recipients of a
gentleman's attention, Um, and a lot of times, guys, do
you have to deal with a lot of rejection, which
we're going to talk about more in just a minute. Um.
But as Alexandra tweetings by philippe Instagram account illustrates repeatedly,
(15:49):
the reactions to this online dating rejection are so severe,
so many times. Yeah, and I mean yeah, that might
come out of a place of anger or online anonymity,
making it easier to be like, well, screw you, lady,
but that doesn't make it any less horrifying. Uh. Tweeting
(16:12):
writing in Miss magazine says that since creating by Philip,
which of course is a takeoff of by Felicia from Friday, Uh,
it has become a parent that a standard trajectory of
discourse with men online is this man hits on woman,
woman rejects or ignores him. Man lashes out with insults
or even threats. Now we should say that this Instagram
(16:33):
account is one of those social media accounts that displays
in full glory, uh, the interactions online between men and
women on dating sites tender, okay, cepid, what what have you? Um,
basically showing screen grabs of these text or email conversations
(16:54):
that more often than not are completely one thousand percent gross. Yeah,
they don't. They don't end well by Philip, they don't
end well at all. There was even one where a
guy was sending messages to a girl young enough to
be his daughter, and she was like, Hey, I am fourteen,
you have to leave me alone. Granted sub question what
(17:16):
side is she on that she's fourteen? Anyway, He was like, oh, well,
my bad, like, no disrespect, have a nice day. He
immediately comes back and it's like, well, you're going to
be fat when you grow up anyway, So just yeah,
like what what, why do you need to do that?
I don't know? What's people the power grab um yeah
tweet and writes that she started it to one commiserate
(17:37):
with other women who are dealing with this so commonly too,
to show guys what it's like to be a woman online.
We have talked a lot on the podcast before about
online harassment targeted at women, and three to quote expose
the problematic entitlement some men feel they need to exert
over women in general, and she did it. Also note
(18:01):
in an interview with BuzzFeed that, yeah, online dating is
often wretched four guys because they do have to often
message a lot of women you got you gotta swipe
a lot to get a match, and even if you
do get a match, it doesn't guarantee that that attraction
is going to be sustained. Well, I mean, I think
I think it's wretched for for everyone involved, because there's
(18:23):
plenty of anecdotes about guys setting up accounts pretending to
be women and men. There was one guy interviewed in
one of these articles we read where he was like,
I set up five women and five men as fake accounts,
and before I could even log back off, the women
had already received hundreds of messages, many of them gross,
(18:45):
many of them going straight to sex and like freaky
scary stuff at that, and like most of the men
had just received absolutely nothing. And so he's like, I
can see how it's demoralizing for everyone involved, because he's like,
some guy might have just emailed one of these women
to say hi, and if I responded as the woman
being like hey, what's up, where do you live or whatever,
(19:07):
it immediately was like super sexual, super here's what I'm
gonna do to you, And so yeah, it it immediately
went to like I want to come over and read
Judith butler together, drink some tea, yeah, and do you
have cats? Yeah? The more the merrier. Let's put on
our stretchy pants and let's read poetry. Ironically though this
(19:31):
is a little bit of a tangent, but ironically, Tinder
like the people who run Tinder had a bi Philip
level meltdown in response to this vanity Fair piece that
came out a couple of months ago on Tinder hookups,
this whole tender hookup culture by Nancy Joe Sales, who
(19:52):
did not paint Tinder usage, I should say in the
most positive light. It was made a lot of guys
who use it come off very smarmie, and it was a,
you know, one of those bigger pieces about oh, what
are we doing with this hookup culture and ruining everything?
And women are just being dragged along in the mud essentially.
(20:13):
And in response though to this very buzzed about vanity Fair,
Peace Tender spouted out thirty tweets in quick succession, including
one that said quote, if you want to try to
terrace down with one sided journalism, well that's your prerogative,
which is sort of reminiscent of the kinds of bi
(20:35):
Fillip style post rejection messages that women get, I mean,
in folks, if you haven't seen this, I do recommend
you google it because it's incredible to watch this, this
Tender by Phillip melt Down happening on the internet. It
almost felt unreal. Well, okay, then maybe you can explain.
There have been plenty of things online or in the
(20:59):
media about how, like, you know, apps like Tinder or
signify the end of times that basically like no one's
ever going to fall in love and have families again
because Tender is ruining life for everyone. What was it
about Nancy jos Sales? Do you know that that caused
Tender to get so upset? As I say tender like
it's a person, but the Tender Twitter person to get
(21:19):
so upset because she painted because Tinder was positioned in
her peace as instigating a post dating apocalypse essentially, and
you know, talks a lot about how these guys that
she interviewed in her story manipulate Tinder to basically get
(21:42):
as much sex as they want and treat women in
real life very very poorly. And it's just that insta
sex hookup culture that is even more troubling. It seems
like to Sales than the analog hookup culture, where I mean,
at least you're meeting at a party and one of
(22:03):
the things tender, or at least this person tweeting on
behalf of Tinder was most upset about was how Sales
did not interview anyone with Tinder for the piece, to
which Nancy Joe Sales on Twitter got the last word
in this whole tender Twitter meltdown, saying, ha ha, this
(22:24):
piece wasn't even about Tinder at all. Oh so you're
saying that, um, miss Vanity Fair hurt Mr tinders feelings
and Mr Tinder just lashed out and was like, Miss
Vanity Fair, you can go you aren't my type anyway. Yeah,
I mean it really, it really was like that. And listeners,
(22:45):
we will be posting a link to that Vanity Fair
piece over at stuff I've never told you dot com
on the podcast post for this, So if you haven't
read it, I highly recommend you go check it out.
If you are familiar with it, um and want us
to do a podcast, look at it. Just let us
know because it's I mean, there's a lot to talk
about in there. I love these weird personified, anthropomorphized versions
(23:09):
of websites of dating as Yeah, because I feel like Tinder,
who's obviously the hipper millennial on a smartphone, tweeting things
where has e harmonies at home on just on like
a rotary telephone calling you up, wondering why you're not answering. Oh,
we're gonna get so many letters from the harmony users.
(23:30):
And this is all it's all funny to joke about,
you know, if you if you can't laugh, you'll cry,
that kind of thing. But there is a darker, more
serious side to all of this, because it's not as
if this behavior and this language and these reactions are
limited to the Internet, to the online world. This is
(23:50):
very real stuff. This, this aggression, this masculinity threat, all
of this is very real. And the website when Women
Refuge is around Tumbler highlights that, Yeah, I mean this
Tumbler is essentially a collection of stories and graphic images
trigger warning of women who have endured domestic abuse from
(24:16):
either partners or strangers, you know, especially in context of
rejecting them in one way or another. And and it
really does get to that quote problematic entitlement that tweet
and says helped inspire by Philip I. Mean and and too.
(24:37):
That kind of darker, darker, darker entitlement was also echoed
in the manifesto written by Elliott Roger, who murdered women
partially because he was so angry that he could not
sleep with them, he did not have access to them
(24:58):
in the way he felt like he should. Yeah, he
felt that women should be afraid of him. Well, that
women should be afraid of men and should be submissive
to them completely. And obviously that is a worst case
scenario kind of example. But ultimately it is all connected
because there are these common threads that run through that.
(25:19):
And we're going to talk about those threads and the
academic research that's been done on them when we come
right back from a quick bread. So we don't have
just Instagram accounts and anecdotes from our dating lives to
(25:44):
base this whole conversation on. There has actually been a
ton of research on romantic and sexual rejection and how
that often is processed through gendered lenses, says, as most
things are eventually processed through. Yeah, there was study called
(26:04):
the Prevalence and Nature of Unrequited Love, and it pointed
out that unrequited love and crushing on people was four
times more frequent than quote unquote equal love, that deep, actual,
real relationship where two people know that they're in a
relationship with each other and love each other. Um. Researchers
(26:28):
said that unrequited love was not a good simulation of
true romantic love, but an inferior approximation of that ideal.
And then it's more common among people with an anxious
or ambivalent attachment style. And this is to establish the
fact that rejection is gonna happen. I mean, this is
(26:50):
more the rule than the exception. Love and relationships are
the exception. Otherwise, I mean, how would we really get
on with our lives that we didn't have rejection happening
all the time. Yeah, But in calling it not a
good simulation of true romantic love, they're sort of explaining
the fact that it's so much more common than that
equal love, and it can be so much more intense,
(27:12):
it can stir up all of these feelings of inferiority
and anxiety, And so I think that it's absolutely important
to talk about that in relation to online dating, where
so much rejection happens. Yeah, And these similar kinds of
studies have found that men do tend to experience romantic
(27:32):
rejection more often than women, quite possibly because again of
this heteronormative role social role as the pursuer, men are
more expected to put themselves in positions where they could
be rejected compared to women. But the thing is, while
rejection is no fun, getting rejected is no fun. Of course,
(27:56):
studies have also shown that it's also painful to do
the rejecting, and this goes back to a study published
in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology that looked
at both sides of unrequited love, of the person who
was having to process receiving it in the person who's
dolling it out, and the authors wrote that rejectors depicted
(28:21):
themselves as morally innocent but still felt guilty about hurting someone,
But they also depicted the would be lovers persistent efforts
as intrusive and annoying, and in an article about this
in The New York Times, one of the study authors,
(28:41):
Roy Baumeister, described this experience of doing the romantic rejection
as agony, and also that if you're looking at rejecting
versus being rejected, that it's actually the people doing the
rejecting who remember that incident more than the people who
were rejected. I mean, obviously that's pens and then other
(29:01):
factors go into that, but it seems like that strange
experience of having to that strange and painful experience of
having to tell someone who's being very persistent that you're no,
I'm not interested, it really kind of sticks with you.
And so it's interesting to read about how people on
either side of this experience process it differently in order
(29:22):
to sort of justify their own behavior. And there's also
to this issue of rejectors, especially if there's an established
relationship between two people. This is probably happening more in
real life versus online dating um, but rejectors being expected
to not only do the rejecting but also comfort the
(29:44):
other person's wounded pride. But speaking of online dating, though,
that can explain this common demand for an explanation, because
that is a source of comfort. That's their closure. Tell
me why I'm not good enough? The old Taco rous,
the taco ruse. Caroline Bombaster also found that men are
more likely than women to fall in love with someone
(30:07):
who does not return their feelings. And that's also in
another like real life as opposed to online thing um
and echoing that is Philip Shaver at the University of
California Davis, who said that the people who are particularly
prone to falling in love with people who will reject
them are people who are so anxious about being loved
(30:28):
that they drive their partners away through being too clingy.
That anxious attachment, that anxious attachment that the person who's
doing the attaching sees us normal and just love me.
I just want to be loved, and the rejector feels like, God,
you're being a creep. I've been that person. I've been
that creep before, Caroline. I will own that and that
(30:48):
creep though issue is something that we could do an
entire podcast on because I feel like, especially in today's
um dating landscape, it seems like and also from what
I've heard from guys directly, that being rejected also comes
(31:10):
sometimes with this underlying panic of of yeah, Okay, I'm
not going to be able to, you know, ever get
with that person, but also, oh my god, does she
think I'm a creep? Being labeled as a creep, I
feel like, is so so so triggering, you know, of
anxiety and panic for for dudes, because that's almost the
(31:33):
worst thing that you can be called well yeah. And
it's also the frustration and fear of being misunderstood, like no, no, no,
I was just trying to compliment you and ask you
out and and be nice and kind and I just
you know, you're beautiful enough. But I don't want to
be considered a creep. I'm not a creep. I'm just
I just like you. So we already have this complicated
stew on the stove. But then when you add a
(31:56):
dash of this thing called masculinity threat, you have an
emotional powder keg really waiting to happen. So masculinity threat
is a sociological term referring to some men's expectations of
how they should fulfill hegemonic masculine roles. So masculinity threat
(32:19):
is a sociological term referring to when a guy feels
like his idea of what masculinity is and his role
in that is being challenged in some kind of way,
his masculinity being threatened. I guess you could say, yeah,
so that idea of I'm the breadwinner, I am strong,
I must be strong and stoic for my woman. And
(32:41):
of course I have to and am entitled to have
access to women's bodies. Sexually. So what happens when masculinity
is threatened, Well, you tend to get over compensation, which
is not that surprising. Um. There was a study in
social psychology that found that when men's masculinity is threatened,
(33:05):
they go overboard in distancing themselves from femininity or feminine
attributes or women and end up amping up the masculinity
the browishness. Uh the study authors right. Additionally, threatened men
claimed more stereotypically masculine attributes such as height, number of
past sexual relationships, and aggressiveness, which is interesting because your
(33:30):
height is just your height. And when these men's masculinity
was threatened or when they felt threatened, they said that
they were taller than they actually were. And so masculinity
is this sort of social power, and when that power
is endangered, men who are threatened will react, oftentimes in
(33:51):
an aggressive manner. Now all of that, too, though, is
predicated on how closely a man identifies with hegemonic masculine roles,
because there are plenty of guys who where this masculinity
threat is not going to be as big of a
deal for them because they don't see their role in this,
(34:13):
you know, kind of hegemonic box right there. Um, But
for the many, many men out there who do this
is a very real thing. And studies have also found
that provoking masculinity threat also diminishes men's perceptions of sexual
assault and violence as well. So again we start to
(34:34):
see these common threads along the spectrum of just you know,
feelings getting hurt that's totally understandable to violent outrage. Yeah. Well,
there was also a study in the American Journal of
Sociology that found that the more testosteron a man had,
the more overcompensating behaviors he exhibited when told that his
(34:56):
survey answers indicated femininity. In this particular study, Uh, when
men had less testosterone, they didn't really exhibit any real
overcompensation behavior to speak of. But key to that threat
is that men with more testosterone aren't necessarily walking around
being macho and aggressive of the time, twenty four hours
(35:17):
a day. It was it was the threat. It was
the telling, hey, you your your survey answers when we
asked about attributes of your life and behavior, they're they're
really indicated femininity, No, bro, And that's when the guys
with a lot more testosterone than the other men went
into those overcompensating behaviors, like why would you tell that
(35:38):
to a six ft five men? Impossible? And this can
also happen with women in terms of femininity threat where, uh,
if you identify with those feminine roles and you feel
like that is being threatened, which would be people thinking
that you are too strong or aggressive, then you might
(36:00):
minimize yourself or your role in some kind of way
to compensate, which equally is not all women, right, Um,
It's just a particular subset of women who would react
negatively being told that they're too strong or too masculine.
So where though, is all of this coming from if
we're talking about masculinity threat um? So Michael Kimmel wrote
(36:24):
a whole book about this um and he has built
a whole career actually on on studying masculinity UM. And
in his book Angry White Men Masculinity at the End
of an Era, he refers to the erosion of white
male privilege, particularly in the US as a quote aggrieved
(36:45):
entitlement basically of guys today not benefiting as much from
the privileges bestowed to say, their dads or their granddads. Yeah,
And in the same article, that was looking at Michael
Kimmel's research uh sociologists Tristan Bridges and Arrely tober So
that men are likely to turn to violence when they
(37:07):
perceive themselves to be otherwise unable to stake a claim
to a masculine gender identity. And of course this article
is very specifically talking about gun violence in the United
States as it relates to masculine aggression, but it does
seem to relate back to the aggressive responses that can
happen when rejection happens online or in dating scenarios, right,
(37:31):
because again this does seem to echo common demands for
those explanations as to why a girl doesn't want to
talk to you, go on a date with, sleep with, etcetera.
Them And the fact of the matter is some guys
are just jerks, just like some women or just jerks.
But there does seem to be something to the relationship
(37:56):
between masculinity threat and this pattern of rejection and how
we all process rejection, and also how that relates to
to this headonormative dating dynamic that has really not kept
up with gender progression and which does no one any good.
(38:20):
It does well, I mean I say that, but of
course the people who benefit from being on the top
of the heap. Of course they benefit from that, but
for I mean, I would argue that most people would
be better served if we weren't desperately clinging with our
fingernails sunk in to these ideas that men have to
(38:41):
be a certain way and women have to be a
certain way, and that men deserve x y z and
women need and should give x y z in response. Yeah,
and it just seems like there's something fundamentally broken too
with this structure that we've built up in terms of
straight you know, attraction, sex and pursuit, because as far
(39:07):
as I know, we don't see similar patterns. I mean,
of course there are incidents, but similar patterns happening with
LGBT dating. There's not the bi fleape grinder version, you know.
I mean, it just seems to be so so particular
to how men and women get together that just gets
(39:29):
my brain turning about what it really means, because clearly
this is not just about tender or online dating. This
is a bigger thing about how men and men and
women relate to each other. I think. Yeah, and the
idea that still that persists that people don't believe that
(39:52):
no means no. And in pop culture too, we have
loved stories of the underdog I who finally gets his
reward at some point for you know, hanging in there
with the girl who's dating the you know, the rich
guy who's more handsome but ultimately he'll win her, or
(40:12):
just wearing a woman down, which really only feeds into
this dysfunction. Well, one researcher quoted was it in the
New York Times article about this, pointed to all those
movies and said, like, listen, statistically speaking and scientifically, people
date and have relationships with people who are of equivalent
(40:35):
attractiveness and life status. And so that's kind of where
you get this idea of the nice guys of okay Cupid,
for instance, who voiced their entitlement to like a you know,
like a gazelle, like a freaking Cindy Crawford on okay Cupid,
that they just deserve to have this woman pay attention
to them, And so why won't you answer me as
to why you won't date me? But so how do
(40:58):
we change this? How do we go from here? I mean,
I I don't know that you and I sitting here
in a podcast studio are going to do it. What
is it going to take or will this ever change? Well,
i'd i'd like to think that one day it might change,
and that we can all treat each other like human
(41:20):
people who have feelings, um, and respect each other's decisions. Um.
But I don't know. Maybe it it's if women talking
about it isn't gonna work. Maybe it's going to take
men talking to each other about it. Yeah, I mean
that brings up a quote from Kimmel and Angry White Men.
(41:41):
He said, American men define their masculinity not as much
in relation to women, but in relation to each other. So, guys,
what's it going to take? And also, okay, folks, I
feel like we have a lot to learn from you,
so please please give us your wisdom because I know
we've heard from, for instance, some of our lesbian listeners
(42:05):
in response to our Division of household labor episode that yes,
there is sure there is a division. Somebody might like
to mow the law on, somebody like might like to
load the dishwasher Kristen Um, guilty, Um, But that there's
no stereotypical gender role to fall back on, and so
(42:27):
I would imagine it's the same in terms of dating
with the approach versus the approach e um that there's
no real script or schema for who should do the approaching,
who should do the rejecting or the accepting. And also too,
in terms of hookups gay men to take such a
more straightforward approach to it as well of sex being
(42:52):
sex do you want it or not? Done? And done
as well? Well, sure, because when it's a straight man
and a straight woman looking for each other on Tinder,
for instance, Mr tinder Um, you also have to deal
with all of the social stuff that says women who
just want sex on Tinder are gross or that they're
you know, sluts. So you've got all sorts of layers
(43:14):
of social grossness um putting pressure on everyone. We got
some baggage and talk about some relationship baggage will help
us sort through it. Folks. We're really curious to hear
from women who have experienced this online. Does this issue
resonate with you, especially in your online dating experience and
(43:35):
just generally everyone, what are your thoughts on this? Mom
Stuff at how stuffworks dot com is our email address.
You can also tweet us at mom stuff podcasts, or
messages on Facebook. And we've got a couple of messages
to share with you right now, and I've gotta let
her here. Caroline from listener Andy, who writes, thank you,
(44:00):
thank you, thank you for doing an episode on Asian fetishes?
Is this something I deal with from time to time
and it's hard to explain to others why it's an
issue or why it's creepy. You guys mentioned in the
podcast that having an Asian fetish is similar to merely
having a type. This is an argument I hear a lot.
The difference between having a fetish and a type comes
(44:21):
down to whether you can see the person as an
individual or merely as a member of their group. For instance,
Kristen said she's only dated white guys. But Kristen, do
you immediately hit on every white guy you meet because
he's merely white? Answer? Yes, it's exhausting. I'm totally kidding,
She says. Do you quiz him on his white cultural upbringing?
(44:42):
Do you ask him where he buys his silverware? I've
been asked where I buy my chopsticks. Everyone has a type.
Mine is lanky, pale, nerdy guys, but that doesn't mean
I find them interchangeable. Once again, I appreciate you doing
an episode on an Asian issue. Since we are the
quote model minority, it's sometimes hard to convince people that
(45:04):
racism against Asians exists or matters. While it's true that
in America, racism against Asians tends to be less violent
than racism towards other minorities, that doesn't mean it's not
a problem and that it shouldn't be examined. Thanks for
making this world a better place. Um, thank you, Andy.
That last line to escape me goose bumps. Well, I
(45:25):
have a letter here from Elizabeth in response to our
Samurai Women episode, and I just want to say, first
of all, Elizabeth, thank you. Her email is a six page,
essentially really super well written list of corrections, and I
wish I could read the whole thing that I can't,
so I want to pull out some points of clarification
(45:47):
that Elizabeth makes, So here we go. She says, I
posted this on Facebook as well because I felt it
was too hugely important to be glossed over, and I
was really hoping other fellow listeners would see it and
catch that the switch from ship to religion. Two more
disparaging views of women came from Confucianism and not Buddhism.
Both were introduced into Japan at the same time and
(46:09):
had long been tied together in China because of the
Chinese traditional religion, which really meant that Taoism, Buddhism, and
Confucianism were all simultaneously believed in and work together in
unison to form the belief of the Chinese people. Because
of the strong relation and tied to Confucianism, a lot
of the misogynistic ideas about how evil women were and
(46:29):
whether or not they could obtain enlightenment bled very heavily
into Buddhism. It's possible that there may have been some
not very accepting ideas about women in general and Buddhism,
but at its core that's not really part of the
Buddhist doctrine. She goes on to say. Historically, the more
firm that Confucianism took root in Japan, the less rights
women had. Every negative thing you mentioned in your podcast
(46:52):
as a cultural belief about women, those are all Confucianist beliefs.
For the hay On period. Women being behind closed doors
then was definitely a Confucian thing in part, but Confucianism
didn't have as strong of a hold then. Women had
relatively a lot of power in the hay On period
and a lot of social mobility if they were able
to get the means or attract the attention of the
(47:12):
right person, and being indoors was kind of more of
a luxurious choice for all parts of the aristocracy because,
as I mentioned in my Facebook post, it had to
do with labor. If you're tanned and go outside a lot,
it's because you're poor and you tend to the fields,
your skin darkens. Men were allowed to darken a little
because they had to run the country, so they went
out to court. Men were also the administrators for the
(47:35):
property of the women in their lives, since at this
time period women were allowed to inherit residences, property, and
obtain income in the form of rice. They held title
and core positions. But because you didn't literally live in
the fields, you had to send someone to go get
your rice for you. That was the job of the men,
although the most elite of men would still have people
to do that for them. If you are of low rank,
(47:56):
you probably have to go do that for yourself because
you'd have no other vast old. Low ranking women wouldn't
do this just because it'd be hard and honestly, they'd
have a better life if they tried to become a
lady in waiting for some prominent figure. So as a
social construct, they would be encouraged to be indoors more
often as well. And of course there Elizabeth is explaining
our discussion about how over certain periods in Japanese history,
(48:18):
women were basically quote unquote like not allowed to go outside,
that they it wasn't social acceptable for women to be
out and about um, so she's explaining the whole like
women staying in their rooms thing. She goes on to say, Oh,
and as a general note about loyalty and stuff, it's
been noted through different parts of Asia that women are
often believed to be more loyal than men, which is
also kind of an odd side effect of Confucianism as well.
(48:41):
Confucianism teaches that while you should respect the leaders and
people above you for their ultimate decision, if you believe
that they're doing wrong, you're allowed to attempt to set
them on the correct path. In terms of a leader
of vassal type relationship, if you're leaders a jerk, you're
allowed to quit and find a new allegiance. In China
and practice I remember from one course that the school
are had apparently remarked about the citizens in a town
(49:02):
facing the attack from an army, the men ran away
while the women valiantly killed themselves. Women were also thought
of as more willing and able to kill themselves because
of the social pressure put upon them by Confucianism. So
because they were subjected to so much and expected to
be loyal to the men in their lives, it was
easier for them to die for a greater cause, like
an incoming enemy, or even in the case of going
(49:22):
into battle. Plus, you know, women cheating and all that
was highly frowned upon. But because men didn't have to
adhere to loyalties day to day, they would change allegiances
easily or would run away. So Elizabeth, I'm really sorry
I couldn't read your whole email, but I do want
to thank you for ending it with anyway. Still love
the podcast and thanks for talking about all of these subjects,
(49:43):
and thanks to all of you who are written into us.
Moms Stuff at house Stuffworks dot com is our email address.
You can also find links to all of our social
media as well as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts,
including this one, with links to our sources so you
can read all about that tender melt down we can't
get enough. Head on over to stuff Mom Never told
You dot com for more on this and thousands of
(50:08):
other topics. Is it how stuff Works dot com
Hi, this is Annie, and you're listening to stuff Mo've
never told you. You might have seen this story in
the news lately. During one of her recent concerts, Cardi
B's X interrupted the whole thing to beg her to
(00:29):
come back to him. They had recently split over allegations
that he was cheating on Cardi B. And he had
this card of roses that spelled out take me back Cardi.
It was a whole thing. She did not look impressed.
Some news outlets do speculate that it was a big
PR stunt, but Cardi insist she was surprised by his appearance,
(00:50):
and as of recording this, I haven't heard anything differently
in either case, though. This is something I have seen before,
and I have experienced myself. Not the sold concert thing,
but a woman working and a man publicly interrupting to
demand your attention to emotionally manipulate you. There was a
guy once who wanted to date me, and he showed
(01:11):
up at my office with flowers with no warning, and
he expected that I would think this was a very
romantic thing, but instead I was very annoyed and I
had to take time out of my day. I had
to let him down easy, and then I had to
explain to my co workers who were expecting this sweet
story what had gone down, and they clearly were like,
(01:33):
oh no, it's so sweet, you should give him a chance.
And this is why I do not want a surprise
public engagement. Not that I ever plan on getting married,
but I have thought about this. There's a time and
a place for an apology, and it's not sprung on
someone in public while they're working. One fan of Cardi
(01:53):
B's wrote on Twitter, tonight should have been about Cardi
headlining the Rolling Loud Festival. Instead, it's all about out
what this dude did and how she reacted. No convos
about her performance. In fact, it's stealing thunder even from
other performers. Tonight, that's selfish, a f that's manipulation. Another wrote,
this public campaign is actually classic harassment. Women are always
(02:17):
expected to do the emotional labor of men, no matter
how badly they are betrayed or hurt. It also kind
of reminds me of that Jason Drulo song what You Say,
which is yeah, a throwback, but he's like, look, I
know I should have treated you better, I shouldn't have
cheated on you. But we've belonged together. So sorry you
caught me, but let's just move past this already. Come on.
And I don't know that's my interpretation of the song.
(02:39):
Perhaps you have a different interpretation. As we discussed in
our stocking episode, I think a lot of movies have
pushed this narrative that something like this is romantic. It's
not worth noting. Cardi b has asked for people to
stop bashing offset, but I would say that the whole
(02:59):
insta it is a wonderful example of men and not
handling women's sexual rejection in the best way. And in
this classic episode, we take a look at why that
might be. Please enjoy. Welcome to stuff Mom Never told
(03:19):
you from how Stop works dot com. Hello, and welcome
to the podcast. I'm Christen and I'm Caroline, and today
I'm gonna talk like men. We're gonna talk about rejection,
and we're going to talk about how a mind dating
offers documentary proof the guys fell and students you have
(03:45):
a hard time getting turned down sometimes. Heck, yeah, the
Internet is sort of a scary landscape. It is. And
should we go ahead and offer a disclaimer that, yes,
some women have a hard time with rejection sometimes as well,
and overreact getting turned down, especially if you're being sexually
(04:07):
turned down. Well, rejection is hard. Rejejection is the worst.
Rejecting is pretty bad too, But I mean it can
rejection of any kind can really sting, and and that
is not a gendered thing. It's a fact of life.
Rejection is the worst, and we hate it, we all
struggle with it. But there are some things that put
(04:28):
certain people at risk of being a bigger jerk than
other people when it comes to rejection. Yeah, I mean
this is a particular pattern when it comes to straight
dating and especially straight online dating, although it is more
of a thing of straight guys dating, I should say,
because the recipient of the offer, whether it's to you know,
(04:52):
have a drink bought or a date or sex or whatever, Um,
she can be of any orientation. Whatsoe her. It's really
more you know, straight guys processing being turned down and
what God is thinking about this whole thing was an
incident that happened on the internet in late August. Yeah.
I was actually on vacation when this happened, and I
(05:13):
just remember seeing, um, my internet, my personal internet, blowing
up over it. So BuzzFeed writer and comedian Grace Spellman
got a series of tweets and Facebook messages from this guy,
Ben Shane, who is a former Harry Potter podcast host
(05:34):
and who's also the co founder of the website theem Inspire.
He was clearly trying to charm Miss Spellman, and uh
he I guess it's an understatement to say that he
didn't really charm her. Yeah, the whole incident was kind
of bizarre because they had friended each other on Facebook
(05:55):
nine years ago when Shane was hosting this pot cast
called muggle Cast, which was super popular um and Spellman
was a fan, so they became friends on Facebook, but
they were weren't in contact whatsoever. So this time in
August was the first time he was messaging her ever,
so totally out of the blue, and at first he
(06:19):
was full of praise. So in one Facebook message he
sent her, he said, you do a remarkable job of
making your quirky personality shine through online. It's hyperactively beautiful.
And to to this, Spellman says, thanks, no, thanks, I've
good a boyfriend, wish you well turn him down politely. Well,
(06:44):
he was not too happy about that. No, No, that
would be also another understatement. He responded with a slew
of of not so nice messages, including just because you
work at BuzzFeed doesn't mean you're good. Good luck find
meaning and all of that garbage you call content. And
he also, I mean, he got more personal than that,
(07:06):
and he just wouldn't stop. He was contacting her on
all sorts of platforms just to tell her that she
was the worst. Basically, yeah, I mean, because it really
exploded when she publicized the private, in sensant private messaging
that he had been doing. And then of course that
only fanned his his outrage, and at one point he
wrote her an email saying, I was so angry and offended.
(07:28):
I wrote a draft putting you in your place, but
then he decided against it and wrote her this email instead.
But what was interesting to see was this White Knight
turn that it took when he issued a press statement
touting his fem Inspire cred saying I've done more for
the cause of advancing women's rights than any of the
(07:50):
people who are criticizing me. Um. Because this is after
Grace Spellman publicized this incident to her large Twitter fall
allowing and people kind of came out of the woodwork
saying either what a cree But also this has happened
to me before, and also yeah, this is why he
you know, I left them Inspire or why he is
(08:14):
not on our podcast anymore, etcetera. It does seem to
be fair that Ben Shane has some personal issues going
on that have led him to separate from other people
in his professional life, and that perhaps that behavior is
why he's no longer with the certain ventures that he
had been with before and what possibly led him to
(08:36):
be like incredibly creepy with Grace Spellman. But that about face,
going from you're brilliant and hyperactively beautiful and charming to
you're no good at all. All of your work is garbage.
I mean, that kind of about face is something that
we see happen so often anecdotally but now documented via
(08:57):
online dating. And this whole incident prompted Jessica roy Over
at the Cut to relate this to the broader pattern
of straight guys, in particular fellas we love you, but
straight guys not wanting to take no for an answer.
She writes, the whole exchange is pretty emblematic of the
(09:18):
inherent difficulties of rejecting men both online and off. Women
are frequently made to tow a line between being polite
enough not to set off a suitor, but not so
polite that their manners are interpreted as flirting. And when
I read that, I could immediately relate to what she
was saying. It totally resonated. Yeah, and it resonated with Spellman.
(09:40):
She agreed. She says, you can't win in these types
of situations. Even if you're polite in your rejection, they'll
demand that you tell them why you did it. It's
just a mixture of entitlement and the fragility of ego, which,
by the way, as we will get into it a
little bit, is backed up by research. Spellman speaks the truth.
She goes on to say, because you don't know how
they're going to handle it, you don't know if you
(10:01):
should be afraid or not. So the result is this
catch twenty two that comes up often of guys asking
for women to be straightforward and honest with them, which
is totally fair. That is a very reasonable request. Who
wants to be let on? Answer nobody unless you are
just a sucker for pain. But if she is in
(10:26):
fact straightforward, you can then be punished for being too straightforward.
Then you're a jerk or a word that we you know,
can't really say on the podcast. Um, and we should acknowledge. Yeah,
I mean some women do lead guys on. Some women
do put men in holding patterns of you know, wuying
(10:46):
their companionship but not wanting to take it to a
relationship level of sort of like I'm gonna, you know,
float on you for a little bit until I find
a guy that I do want to date. That does happen,
and that's not an okay pattern either. Um. But when
I made a YouTube video about this whole thing, the
comments were split between guys saying it would just be straightforward,
(11:10):
be honest, and girls saying when I was honest and straightforward.
I got so much blowback from it, and sprinkled in
that too, a lot of anecdotes from girls dealing with
guys not taking no for an answer in the sense
of if you say you're just not interested, that's really
(11:32):
not sufficient. They want to know why. They want an explanation,
and typically the only explanations that shut it down completely
are I have a boyfriend, or you hold up your
hand to show off an engagement ring or a wedding band,
and that will usually get them to stop. Which is
interesting how the primary way to get a guy to
(11:55):
take no for an answer is not for you to
say no, but rather for you to present another man
next to you, either literally or figuratively. Well, it seems
that that's the only way to put a stop to
a sense of entitlement to you, access to you. I UM.
I had an awkward moment in college when a friend
(12:16):
of mine told me that he had feelings for me,
and when I responded compassionate, I mean he we've been
friends for years. When I responded very you know, compassionately
that like, I understand, and I'm really sorry, but I
don't feel the same way. Like I love you as
(12:36):
a friend. We've been friends for so long. I just
am not on that same romantic wavelength. He got very upset.
I got very upset. We talked, and we I thought
made up, but then when he offered to like take
me out to dinner for tak us to let things
blow over, I was like, oh, good, like things are
back on track. It was actually a ruse because he
(12:59):
had taken me out for echoes to demand an explanation
of why I would not date him, saying that everything
we do and we hang out together is the same
thing that couples would do, or that a girlfriend and
a boyfriend would do, So why can't you just be
my girlfriend? And it made me really sad because it
made me realize that he must be feeling really powerless
(13:20):
in our friendship if he's telling me that I need
to change the way that I feel and change but
I'm doing to come over to his viewpoint of things.
The old Taco Ruse, Karen Taco Ruse. And the thing is,
so many of us have stories like that of having
(13:41):
to deal with what happens when when someone catches feelings.
But this whole conversation, especially when we look at in
the context of online dating and more of the hook
up culture side of things, it's not so much catching feelings.
It's more wanting to catch bodies. And if you cannot
catch that body, then you will send a series a
(14:03):
very mean text messages or okay Cupid messages that completely,
you know, turn your attraction on a dime, and suddenly
this woman is just the worst thing ever. So weird
to look at these messages because there are plenty of
blogs and things like that that now post them for
(14:23):
all to see and it's so weird to see like, Hey,
you're so hot, I want to date you. I'm being
very euphemistic with what I say, um, and the minute
the woman's like no thanks, so she doesn't respond, the
guy goes immediately to well, you're ugly and fat anyway,
and I don't want to date you, and nobody else
wants to date you, quote unquote date you, so just
(14:44):
never contact me again. It's like, whoa were you just
having a completely different conversation than I was. Wait, I
thought women were the crazy ones. Caroline, what happened? Yeah.
The fact that the Daily Dot published guidelines for dudes
getting rejected on tender that included quote once someone makes
it clear they're not interested in talking to you, stop
(15:05):
talking to them kind of points out that this is
something that happens now. I'm sure that your patients, if
you are a straight dude in these kinds of online dating,
scenarios can wear very thin because it is more of
a woman's game, a street woman's game with online dating,
because of the whole narratives, the broader social narratives as
(15:28):
men as the pursuers, women as the recipients of a
gentleman's attention, Um, and a lot of times, guys, do
you have to deal with a lot of rejection, which
we're going to talk about more in just a minute. Um.
But as Alexandra tweetings by philippe Instagram account illustrates repeatedly,
(15:49):
the reactions to this online dating rejection are so severe,
so many times. Yeah, and I mean yeah, that might
come out of a place of anger or online anonymity,
making it easier to be like, well, screw you, lady,
but that doesn't make it any less horrifying. Uh. Tweeting
(16:12):
writing in Miss magazine says that since creating by Philip,
which of course is a takeoff of by Felicia from Friday, Uh,
it has become a parent that a standard trajectory of
discourse with men online is this man hits on woman,
woman rejects or ignores him. Man lashes out with insults
or even threats. Now we should say that this Instagram
(16:33):
account is one of those social media accounts that displays
in full glory, uh, the interactions online between men and
women on dating sites tender, okay, cepid, what what have you? Um,
basically showing screen grabs of these text or email conversations
(16:54):
that more often than not are completely one thousand percent gross. Yeah,
they don't. They don't end well by Philip, they don't
end well at all. There was even one where a
guy was sending messages to a girl young enough to
be his daughter, and she was like, Hey, I am fourteen,
you have to leave me alone. Granted sub question what
(17:16):
side is she on that she's fourteen? Anyway, He was like, oh, well,
my bad, like, no disrespect, have a nice day. He
immediately comes back and it's like, well, you're going to
be fat when you grow up anyway, So just yeah,
like what what, why do you need to do that?
I don't know? What's people the power grab um yeah
tweet and writes that she started it to one commiserate
(17:37):
with other women who are dealing with this so commonly too,
to show guys what it's like to be a woman online.
We have talked a lot on the podcast before about
online harassment targeted at women, and three to quote expose
the problematic entitlement some men feel they need to exert
over women in general, and she did it. Also note
(18:01):
in an interview with BuzzFeed that, yeah, online dating is
often wretched four guys because they do have to often
message a lot of women you got you gotta swipe
a lot to get a match, and even if you
do get a match, it doesn't guarantee that that attraction
is going to be sustained. Well, I mean, I think
I think it's wretched for for everyone involved, because there's
(18:23):
plenty of anecdotes about guys setting up accounts pretending to
be women and men. There was one guy interviewed in
one of these articles we read where he was like,
I set up five women and five men as fake accounts,
and before I could even log back off, the women
had already received hundreds of messages, many of them gross,
(18:45):
many of them going straight to sex and like freaky
scary stuff at that, and like most of the men
had just received absolutely nothing. And so he's like, I
can see how it's demoralizing for everyone involved, because he's like,
some guy might have just emailed one of these women
to say hi, and if I responded as the woman
being like hey, what's up, where do you live or whatever,
(19:07):
it immediately was like super sexual, super here's what I'm
gonna do to you, And so yeah, it it immediately
went to like I want to come over and read
Judith butler together, drink some tea, yeah, and do you
have cats? Yeah? The more the merrier. Let's put on
our stretchy pants and let's read poetry. Ironically though this
(19:31):
is a little bit of a tangent, but ironically, Tinder
like the people who run Tinder had a bi Philip
level meltdown in response to this vanity Fair piece that
came out a couple of months ago on Tinder hookups,
this whole tender hookup culture by Nancy Joe Sales, who
(19:52):
did not paint Tinder usage, I should say in the
most positive light. It was made a lot of guys
who use it come off very smarmie, and it was a,
you know, one of those bigger pieces about oh, what
are we doing with this hookup culture and ruining everything?
And women are just being dragged along in the mud essentially.
(20:13):
And in response though to this very buzzed about vanity Fair,
Peace Tender spouted out thirty tweets in quick succession, including
one that said quote, if you want to try to
terrace down with one sided journalism, well that's your prerogative,
which is sort of reminiscent of the kinds of bi
(20:35):
Fillip style post rejection messages that women get, I mean,
in folks, if you haven't seen this, I do recommend
you google it because it's incredible to watch this, this
Tender by Phillip melt Down happening on the internet. It
almost felt unreal. Well, okay, then maybe you can explain.
There have been plenty of things online or in the
(20:59):
media about how, like, you know, apps like Tinder or
signify the end of times that basically like no one's
ever going to fall in love and have families again
because Tender is ruining life for everyone. What was it
about Nancy jos Sales? Do you know that that caused
Tender to get so upset? As I say tender like
it's a person, but the Tender Twitter person to get
(21:19):
so upset because she painted because Tinder was positioned in
her peace as instigating a post dating apocalypse essentially, and
you know, talks a lot about how these guys that
she interviewed in her story manipulate Tinder to basically get
(21:42):
as much sex as they want and treat women in
real life very very poorly. And it's just that insta
sex hookup culture that is even more troubling. It seems
like to Sales than the analog hookup culture, where I mean,
at least you're meeting at a party and one of
(22:03):
the things tender, or at least this person tweeting on
behalf of Tinder was most upset about was how Sales
did not interview anyone with Tinder for the piece, to
which Nancy Joe Sales on Twitter got the last word
in this whole tender Twitter meltdown, saying, ha ha, this
(22:24):
piece wasn't even about Tinder at all. Oh so you're
saying that, um, miss Vanity Fair hurt Mr tinders feelings
and Mr Tinder just lashed out and was like, Miss
Vanity Fair, you can go you aren't my type anyway. Yeah,
I mean it really, it really was like that. And listeners,
(22:45):
we will be posting a link to that Vanity Fair
piece over at stuff I've never told you dot com
on the podcast post for this, So if you haven't
read it, I highly recommend you go check it out.
If you are familiar with it, um and want us
to do a podcast, look at it. Just let us
know because it's I mean, there's a lot to talk
about in there. I love these weird personified, anthropomorphized versions
(23:09):
of websites of dating as Yeah, because I feel like Tinder,
who's obviously the hipper millennial on a smartphone, tweeting things
where has e harmonies at home on just on like
a rotary telephone calling you up, wondering why you're not answering. Oh,
we're gonna get so many letters from the harmony users.
(23:30):
And this is all it's all funny to joke about,
you know, if you if you can't laugh, you'll cry,
that kind of thing. But there is a darker, more
serious side to all of this, because it's not as
if this behavior and this language and these reactions are
limited to the Internet, to the online world. This is
(23:50):
very real stuff. This, this aggression, this masculinity threat, all
of this is very real. And the website when Women
Refuge is around Tumbler highlights that, Yeah, I mean this
Tumbler is essentially a collection of stories and graphic images
trigger warning of women who have endured domestic abuse from
(24:16):
either partners or strangers, you know, especially in context of
rejecting them in one way or another. And and it
really does get to that quote problematic entitlement that tweet
and says helped inspire by Philip I. Mean and and too.
(24:37):
That kind of darker, darker, darker entitlement was also echoed
in the manifesto written by Elliott Roger, who murdered women
partially because he was so angry that he could not
sleep with them, he did not have access to them
(24:58):
in the way he felt like he should. Yeah, he
felt that women should be afraid of him. Well, that
women should be afraid of men and should be submissive
to them completely. And obviously that is a worst case
scenario kind of example. But ultimately it is all connected
because there are these common threads that run through that.
(25:19):
And we're going to talk about those threads and the
academic research that's been done on them when we come
right back from a quick bread. So we don't have
just Instagram accounts and anecdotes from our dating lives to
(25:44):
base this whole conversation on. There has actually been a
ton of research on romantic and sexual rejection and how
that often is processed through gendered lenses, says, as most
things are eventually processed through. Yeah, there was study called
(26:04):
the Prevalence and Nature of Unrequited Love, and it pointed
out that unrequited love and crushing on people was four
times more frequent than quote unquote equal love, that deep, actual,
real relationship where two people know that they're in a
relationship with each other and love each other. Um. Researchers
(26:28):
said that unrequited love was not a good simulation of
true romantic love, but an inferior approximation of that ideal.
And then it's more common among people with an anxious
or ambivalent attachment style. And this is to establish the
fact that rejection is gonna happen. I mean, this is
(26:50):
more the rule than the exception. Love and relationships are
the exception. Otherwise, I mean, how would we really get
on with our lives that we didn't have rejection happening
all the time. Yeah, But in calling it not a
good simulation of true romantic love, they're sort of explaining
the fact that it's so much more common than that
equal love, and it can be so much more intense,
(27:12):
it can stir up all of these feelings of inferiority
and anxiety, And so I think that it's absolutely important
to talk about that in relation to online dating, where
so much rejection happens. Yeah, And these similar kinds of
studies have found that men do tend to experience romantic
(27:32):
rejection more often than women, quite possibly because again of
this heteronormative role social role as the pursuer, men are
more expected to put themselves in positions where they could
be rejected compared to women. But the thing is, while
rejection is no fun, getting rejected is no fun. Of course,
(27:56):
studies have also shown that it's also painful to do
the rejecting, and this goes back to a study published
in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology that looked
at both sides of unrequited love, of the person who
was having to process receiving it in the person who's
dolling it out, and the authors wrote that rejectors depicted
(28:21):
themselves as morally innocent but still felt guilty about hurting someone,
But they also depicted the would be lovers persistent efforts
as intrusive and annoying, and in an article about this
in The New York Times, one of the study authors,
(28:41):
Roy Baumeister, described this experience of doing the romantic rejection
as agony, and also that if you're looking at rejecting
versus being rejected, that it's actually the people doing the
rejecting who remember that incident more than the people who
were rejected. I mean, obviously that's pens and then other
(29:01):
factors go into that, but it seems like that strange
experience of having to that strange and painful experience of
having to tell someone who's being very persistent that you're no,
I'm not interested, it really kind of sticks with you.
And so it's interesting to read about how people on
either side of this experience process it differently in order
(29:22):
to sort of justify their own behavior. And there's also
to this issue of rejectors, especially if there's an established
relationship between two people. This is probably happening more in
real life versus online dating um, but rejectors being expected
to not only do the rejecting but also comfort the
(29:44):
other person's wounded pride. But speaking of online dating, though,
that can explain this common demand for an explanation, because
that is a source of comfort. That's their closure. Tell
me why I'm not good enough? The old Taco rous,
the taco ruse. Caroline Bombaster also found that men are
more likely than women to fall in love with someone
(30:07):
who does not return their feelings. And that's also in
another like real life as opposed to online thing um
and echoing that is Philip Shaver at the University of
California Davis, who said that the people who are particularly
prone to falling in love with people who will reject
them are people who are so anxious about being loved
(30:28):
that they drive their partners away through being too clingy.
That anxious attachment, that anxious attachment that the person who's
doing the attaching sees us normal and just love me.
I just want to be loved, and the rejector feels like, God,
you're being a creep. I've been that person. I've been
that creep before, Caroline. I will own that and that
(30:48):
creep though issue is something that we could do an
entire podcast on because I feel like, especially in today's
um dating landscape, it seems like and also from what
I've heard from guys directly, that being rejected also comes
(31:10):
sometimes with this underlying panic of of yeah, Okay, I'm
not going to be able to, you know, ever get
with that person, but also, oh my god, does she
think I'm a creep? Being labeled as a creep, I
feel like, is so so so triggering, you know, of
anxiety and panic for for dudes, because that's almost the
(31:33):
worst thing that you can be called well yeah. And
it's also the frustration and fear of being misunderstood, like no, no, no,
I was just trying to compliment you and ask you
out and and be nice and kind and I just
you know, you're beautiful enough. But I don't want to
be considered a creep. I'm not a creep. I'm just
I just like you. So we already have this complicated
stew on the stove. But then when you add a
(31:56):
dash of this thing called masculinity threat, you have an
emotional powder keg really waiting to happen. So masculinity threat
is a sociological term referring to some men's expectations of
how they should fulfill hegemonic masculine roles. So masculinity threat
(32:19):
is a sociological term referring to when a guy feels
like his idea of what masculinity is and his role
in that is being challenged in some kind of way,
his masculinity being threatened. I guess you could say, yeah,
so that idea of I'm the breadwinner, I am strong,
I must be strong and stoic for my woman. And
(32:41):
of course I have to and am entitled to have
access to women's bodies. Sexually. So what happens when masculinity
is threatened, Well, you tend to get over compensation, which
is not that surprising. Um. There was a study in
social psychology that found that when men's masculinity is threatened,
(33:05):
they go overboard in distancing themselves from femininity or feminine
attributes or women and end up amping up the masculinity
the browishness. Uh the study authors right. Additionally, threatened men
claimed more stereotypically masculine attributes such as height, number of
past sexual relationships, and aggressiveness, which is interesting because your
(33:30):
height is just your height. And when these men's masculinity
was threatened or when they felt threatened, they said that
they were taller than they actually were. And so masculinity
is this sort of social power, and when that power
is endangered, men who are threatened will react, oftentimes in
(33:51):
an aggressive manner. Now all of that, too, though, is
predicated on how closely a man identifies with hegemonic masculine roles,
because there are plenty of guys who where this masculinity
threat is not going to be as big of a
deal for them because they don't see their role in this,
(34:13):
you know, kind of hegemonic box right there. Um, But
for the many, many men out there who do this
is a very real thing. And studies have also found
that provoking masculinity threat also diminishes men's perceptions of sexual
assault and violence as well. So again we start to
(34:34):
see these common threads along the spectrum of just you know,
feelings getting hurt that's totally understandable to violent outrage. Yeah. Well,
there was also a study in the American Journal of
Sociology that found that the more testosteron a man had,
the more overcompensating behaviors he exhibited when told that his
(34:56):
survey answers indicated femininity. In this particular study, Uh, when
men had less testosterone, they didn't really exhibit any real
overcompensation behavior to speak of. But key to that threat
is that men with more testosterone aren't necessarily walking around
being macho and aggressive of the time, twenty four hours
(35:17):
a day. It was it was the threat. It was
the telling, hey, you your your survey answers when we
asked about attributes of your life and behavior, they're they're
really indicated femininity, No, bro, And that's when the guys
with a lot more testosterone than the other men went
into those overcompensating behaviors, like why would you tell that
(35:38):
to a six ft five men? Impossible? And this can
also happen with women in terms of femininity threat where, uh,
if you identify with those feminine roles and you feel
like that is being threatened, which would be people thinking
that you are too strong or aggressive, then you might
(36:00):
minimize yourself or your role in some kind of way
to compensate, which equally is not all women, right, Um,
It's just a particular subset of women who would react
negatively being told that they're too strong or too masculine.
So where though, is all of this coming from if
we're talking about masculinity threat um? So Michael Kimmel wrote
(36:24):
a whole book about this um and he has built
a whole career actually on on studying masculinity UM. And
in his book Angry White Men Masculinity at the End
of an Era, he refers to the erosion of white
male privilege, particularly in the US as a quote aggrieved
(36:45):
entitlement basically of guys today not benefiting as much from
the privileges bestowed to say, their dads or their granddads. Yeah,
And in the same article, that was looking at Michael
Kimmel's research uh sociologists Tristan Bridges and Arrely tober So
that men are likely to turn to violence when they
(37:07):
perceive themselves to be otherwise unable to stake a claim
to a masculine gender identity. And of course this article
is very specifically talking about gun violence in the United
States as it relates to masculine aggression, but it does
seem to relate back to the aggressive responses that can
happen when rejection happens online or in dating scenarios, right,
(37:31):
because again this does seem to echo common demands for
those explanations as to why a girl doesn't want to
talk to you, go on a date with, sleep with, etcetera.
Them And the fact of the matter is some guys
are just jerks, just like some women or just jerks.
But there does seem to be something to the relationship
(37:56):
between masculinity threat and this pattern of rejection and how
we all process rejection, and also how that relates to
to this headonormative dating dynamic that has really not kept
up with gender progression and which does no one any good.
(38:20):
It does well, I mean I say that, but of
course the people who benefit from being on the top
of the heap. Of course they benefit from that, but
for I mean, I would argue that most people would
be better served if we weren't desperately clinging with our
fingernails sunk in to these ideas that men have to
(38:41):
be a certain way and women have to be a
certain way, and that men deserve x y z and
women need and should give x y z in response. Yeah,
and it just seems like there's something fundamentally broken too
with this structure that we've built up in terms of
straight you know, attraction, sex and pursuit, because as far
(39:07):
as I know, we don't see similar patterns. I mean,
of course there are incidents, but similar patterns happening with
LGBT dating. There's not the bi fleape grinder version, you know.
I mean, it just seems to be so so particular
to how men and women get together that just gets
(39:29):
my brain turning about what it really means, because clearly
this is not just about tender or online dating. This
is a bigger thing about how men and men and
women relate to each other. I think. Yeah, and the
idea that still that persists that people don't believe that
(39:52):
no means no. And in pop culture too, we have
loved stories of the underdog I who finally gets his
reward at some point for you know, hanging in there
with the girl who's dating the you know, the rich
guy who's more handsome but ultimately he'll win her, or
(40:12):
just wearing a woman down, which really only feeds into
this dysfunction. Well, one researcher quoted was it in the
New York Times article about this, pointed to all those
movies and said, like, listen, statistically speaking and scientifically, people
date and have relationships with people who are of equivalent
(40:35):
attractiveness and life status. And so that's kind of where
you get this idea of the nice guys of okay Cupid,
for instance, who voiced their entitlement to like a you know,
like a gazelle, like a freaking Cindy Crawford on okay Cupid,
that they just deserve to have this woman pay attention
to them, And so why won't you answer me as
to why you won't date me? But so how do
(40:58):
we change this? How do we go from here? I mean,
I I don't know that you and I sitting here
in a podcast studio are going to do it. What
is it going to take or will this ever change? Well,
i'd i'd like to think that one day it might change,
and that we can all treat each other like human
(41:20):
people who have feelings, um, and respect each other's decisions. Um.
But I don't know. Maybe it it's if women talking
about it isn't gonna work. Maybe it's going to take
men talking to each other about it. Yeah, I mean
that brings up a quote from Kimmel and Angry White Men.
(41:41):
He said, American men define their masculinity not as much
in relation to women, but in relation to each other. So, guys,
what's it going to take? And also, okay, folks, I
feel like we have a lot to learn from you,
so please please give us your wisdom because I know
we've heard from, for instance, some of our lesbian listeners
(42:05):
in response to our Division of household labor episode that yes,
there is sure there is a division. Somebody might like
to mow the law on, somebody like might like to
load the dishwasher Kristen Um, guilty, Um, But that there's
no stereotypical gender role to fall back on, and so
(42:27):
I would imagine it's the same in terms of dating
with the approach versus the approach e um that there's
no real script or schema for who should do the approaching,
who should do the rejecting or the accepting. And also too,
in terms of hookups gay men to take such a
more straightforward approach to it as well of sex being
(42:52):
sex do you want it or not? Done? And done
as well? Well, sure, because when it's a straight man
and a straight woman looking for each other on Tinder,
for instance, Mr tinder Um, you also have to deal
with all of the social stuff that says women who
just want sex on Tinder are gross or that they're
you know, sluts. So you've got all sorts of layers
(43:14):
of social grossness um putting pressure on everyone. We got
some baggage and talk about some relationship baggage will help
us sort through it. Folks. We're really curious to hear
from women who have experienced this online. Does this issue
resonate with you, especially in your online dating experience and
(43:35):
just generally everyone, what are your thoughts on this? Mom
Stuff at how stuffworks dot com is our email address.
You can also tweet us at mom stuff podcasts, or
messages on Facebook. And we've got a couple of messages
to share with you right now, and I've gotta let
her here. Caroline from listener Andy, who writes, thank you,
(44:00):
thank you, thank you for doing an episode on Asian fetishes?
Is this something I deal with from time to time
and it's hard to explain to others why it's an
issue or why it's creepy. You guys mentioned in the
podcast that having an Asian fetish is similar to merely
having a type. This is an argument I hear a lot.
The difference between having a fetish and a type comes
(44:21):
down to whether you can see the person as an
individual or merely as a member of their group. For instance,
Kristen said she's only dated white guys. But Kristen, do
you immediately hit on every white guy you meet because
he's merely white? Answer? Yes, it's exhausting. I'm totally kidding,
She says. Do you quiz him on his white cultural upbringing?
(44:42):
Do you ask him where he buys his silverware? I've
been asked where I buy my chopsticks. Everyone has a type.
Mine is lanky, pale, nerdy guys, but that doesn't mean
I find them interchangeable. Once again, I appreciate you doing
an episode on an Asian issue. Since we are the
quote model minority, it's sometimes hard to convince people that
(45:04):
racism against Asians exists or matters. While it's true that
in America, racism against Asians tends to be less violent
than racism towards other minorities, that doesn't mean it's not
a problem and that it shouldn't be examined. Thanks for
making this world a better place. Um, thank you, Andy.
That last line to escape me goose bumps. Well, I
(45:25):
have a letter here from Elizabeth in response to our
Samurai Women episode, and I just want to say, first
of all, Elizabeth, thank you. Her email is a six page,
essentially really super well written list of corrections, and I
wish I could read the whole thing that I can't,
so I want to pull out some points of clarification
(45:47):
that Elizabeth makes, So here we go. She says, I
posted this on Facebook as well because I felt it
was too hugely important to be glossed over, and I
was really hoping other fellow listeners would see it and
catch that the switch from ship to religion. Two more
disparaging views of women came from Confucianism and not Buddhism.
Both were introduced into Japan at the same time and
(46:09):
had long been tied together in China because of the
Chinese traditional religion, which really meant that Taoism, Buddhism, and
Confucianism were all simultaneously believed in and work together in
unison to form the belief of the Chinese people. Because
of the strong relation and tied to Confucianism, a lot
of the misogynistic ideas about how evil women were and
(46:29):
whether or not they could obtain enlightenment bled very heavily
into Buddhism. It's possible that there may have been some
not very accepting ideas about women in general and Buddhism,
but at its core that's not really part of the
Buddhist doctrine. She goes on to say. Historically, the more
firm that Confucianism took root in Japan, the less rights
women had. Every negative thing you mentioned in your podcast
(46:52):
as a cultural belief about women, those are all Confucianist beliefs.
For the hay On period. Women being behind closed doors
then was definitely a Confucian thing in part, but Confucianism
didn't have as strong of a hold then. Women had
relatively a lot of power in the hay On period
and a lot of social mobility if they were able
to get the means or attract the attention of the
(47:12):
right person, and being indoors was kind of more of
a luxurious choice for all parts of the aristocracy because,
as I mentioned in my Facebook post, it had to
do with labor. If you're tanned and go outside a lot,
it's because you're poor and you tend to the fields,
your skin darkens. Men were allowed to darken a little
because they had to run the country, so they went
out to court. Men were also the administrators for the
(47:35):
property of the women in their lives, since at this
time period women were allowed to inherit residences, property, and
obtain income in the form of rice. They held title
and core positions. But because you didn't literally live in
the fields, you had to send someone to go get
your rice for you. That was the job of the men,
although the most elite of men would still have people
to do that for them. If you are of low rank,
(47:56):
you probably have to go do that for yourself because
you'd have no other vast old. Low ranking women wouldn't
do this just because it'd be hard and honestly, they'd
have a better life if they tried to become a
lady in waiting for some prominent figure. So as a
social construct, they would be encouraged to be indoors more
often as well. And of course there Elizabeth is explaining
our discussion about how over certain periods in Japanese history,
(48:18):
women were basically quote unquote like not allowed to go outside,
that they it wasn't social acceptable for women to be
out and about um, so she's explaining the whole like
women staying in their rooms thing. She goes on to say, Oh,
and as a general note about loyalty and stuff, it's
been noted through different parts of Asia that women are
often believed to be more loyal than men, which is
also kind of an odd side effect of Confucianism as well.
(48:41):
Confucianism teaches that while you should respect the leaders and
people above you for their ultimate decision, if you believe
that they're doing wrong, you're allowed to attempt to set
them on the correct path. In terms of a leader
of vassal type relationship, if you're leaders a jerk, you're
allowed to quit and find a new allegiance. In China
and practice I remember from one course that the school
are had apparently remarked about the citizens in a town
(49:02):
facing the attack from an army, the men ran away
while the women valiantly killed themselves. Women were also thought
of as more willing and able to kill themselves because
of the social pressure put upon them by Confucianism. So
because they were subjected to so much and expected to
be loyal to the men in their lives, it was
easier for them to die for a greater cause, like
an incoming enemy, or even in the case of going
(49:22):
into battle. Plus, you know, women cheating and all that
was highly frowned upon. But because men didn't have to
adhere to loyalties day to day, they would change allegiances
easily or would run away. So Elizabeth, I'm really sorry
I couldn't read your whole email, but I do want
to thank you for ending it with anyway. Still love
the podcast and thanks for talking about all of these subjects,
(49:43):
and thanks to all of you who are written into us.
Moms Stuff at house Stuffworks dot com is our email address.
You can also find links to all of our social
media as well as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts,
including this one, with links to our sources so you
can read all about that tender melt down we can't
get enough. Head on over to stuff Mom Never told
You dot com for more on this and thousands of
(50:08):
other topics. Is it how stuff Works dot com
Stuff Mom Never Told You News
Hosts And Creators
Anney Reese
Samantha McVey
Popular Podcasts
United States of Kennedy
United States of Kennedy is a podcast about our cultural fascination with the Kennedy dynasty. Every week, hosts Lyra Smith and George Civeris go into one aspect of the Kennedy story.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com