SMNTY Classics: Cuddle Puddle

Cuddling permeates many of our closest relationships, whether platonic or romantic - but why? In this classic episode, Cristen and Caroline investigate the nature and nurture of cuddling, why some people are now paying for a good snuggle and who wins the spooning battle of the sexes.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I don't welcome to
stuff I've never told your production of I Heart Radio.
So as we record this, it's January, but by the
time it comes out, it will be February, which means
that it is the month of Valentine's Day and the

(00:28):
month of romance and love. Or back when we went out,
the stores would be bedecked with heart shaped chocolate things
and bears. And tell me what the outside world is
like right now? Stuff out like they've had Valenttized Day
stuff out. Yes, yes, I don't know why it sounds

(00:50):
so annoyed about that. Everyone's struggling right now. If you
want to get your Valentine's Day stuff out early, who
am I to say? They want to make that money.
I want to make that money. Don't be alone as
Valentine's Valentine's I'm just playing. I don't think I've ever
had a successful romantic Valentine's And I think I've said

(01:10):
this before on the show, but I dated like three
guys in a row that had a birthday on or
near Valentine's and that was really that was tough. But
I've had a lot of good like Galantines and that
sort of dorky friendship point. I've had a lot of
good times with that. But for today's question, I wanted
to ask, are you a cuddler? Do you like cuddling?

(01:33):
It's according to who the person is. So typically I
am not a handsy, touchy person, but definitely, when I
am involved with someone and I feel like I can
trust them, I definitely am cold cuddle. Not all the time, like,
not all the time. I need my space, for sure,
but there are times and I'm like, I need a cuddle.

(01:55):
And this is when I was telling you that I
would say the word huggle, yes, because I want I
want to hug and snuggles at the same time, obviously,
which is pretty much cuddling. I guess there's already a
word for it, but I don't want to use that word.
You don't want to make your old cash right, But yeah,
it's for me. Cuddling seems so intimate that it has

(02:17):
to be people I trust. So when I'm sick, I
don't like being touched, but I want to be pet
by my mother, like I like her coming and coddling me.
But she's the only one who could do that. But
now like, if I'm in a relationship and I'm I'm
trusting you, then yes, Also if I've been drinking and
I trust you, Like, it's really different that when I've
had a little libation. Typically will go to my closest

(02:40):
girlfriends and like we'll we touch you with them. And
so whether like Caroline and I met the first time
we've actually met and hung out, I really liked her.
I ended up sitting in her lap. I don't know why.
It just kind of hal and it kind of cemented
our relationship Caroline from unladylike. But that's kind of how
I am. And it's all that number of trust. So
it's kind of like who I see as someone that

(03:01):
is so oddly enough, cuddle lilng is a measure of
how much I trust you. Yeah, I can see that
that what about you. It's a very intimate thing. I
I think kind of similarly, I do cuddle a lot
with like pillows. I'm a very big pillow cuddler. Yeah,
I bring like a pillow everywhere. And uh, in my

(03:22):
last long term relationship, when I was upset, I wanted
to cuddle like it was never a sign of like
times are going well for me. It was usually Oh,
I'm upset and I want somebody to hold me. And
I used to have a recurring dream where I was
just leaning on someone's chest and I didn't have no
idea who they were, but I would listen to their

(03:42):
heartbeat and I would find it very comforting. My problem
is a lot of it is intimate, and there's a
trust issue there. But also I thought I was worried
it would lead to other things that I didn't want,
So it was almost never a good thing that I
was cuddling. But as everyone knows, I'm writting this epic
fan fiction and I see that cuddling shows up quite

(04:05):
a bit of it. So it is. I do think
there's a level of trust for a lot of us.
I won't say for everybody, but for a lot of
people involved in cuddling, right, yes, So well to look
into why that might be, we have this classic episode
for you on cuddling, so please enjoy. Welcome to Stuff

(04:30):
Mom Never told you from House Top Works, not col Hello,
and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline
and Caroline. Today's topic is one of those that I
did not expect to find as much research and in

(04:54):
depth investigations on something as simplistic, at least seemingly some
the stick as cuddling. I know, well, I was not surprised.
I totally expected that there would be plenty of first
person accounts or anecdotal stories or even think pieces and
analysis about who cuddles and why. I didn't expect. Similarly,

(05:17):
I did not expect the actual amount of academic research
that's out there. But once I started reading about cuddling
and thought about all of the different variations of cuddling,
which I gotta say side note, cuddling is like one
of those like moist work for me. Yeah, cudling, cuddle

(05:40):
why But why is that because you're cuddling a verse
I'm a verse to referring to the act of cuddling.
Is cuddling? Does it signify? I think, as my therapist
would say, Christen, I'm sensing that there's a lot of
emotion around this. No, I think I just prefer spooning.
I think I just don't like the sound of cuddling.
You know, it's similar are to how a square is

(06:02):
a rahombus, but arambas is not a square. You know,
Spooning can be cuddling, But cuddling doesn't necessarily equate to sponing,
and spooning doesn't sound quite as much like the word curdling.
So I think that's I think that's what's going on
in my brain. You're also right there, yes, because when
I think of cuddling, I automatically think of like cottage

(06:23):
cheese cuddling. I think of care bears. I don't know why.
I literally like, I've never had what I just said
to you out loud. I've never had that concrete thought,
but I was like cuddling, Yeah, I just I think
of the care bears on their little clouds. That's what
I think of. We are really unpacking some deep stuff
already in this Why am I paying for therapy? Cottage

(06:46):
cheese care bears is incredible? Um. But thinking though about
all these variations of cuddling, snugging, snugging, snugg e ng
when you put on a snuggie and cuddle someone, or
snuggling as far as people call it, um, then there's spooning.
All these you know, this kind of intimate close contact

(07:09):
that might seem like frivolous behavior to explore, but there
really is a lot of gendered hang ups with it.
There's a lot of evolutionary theory behind cuddling. Um, there
are lots of social rules around cuddling and new developments
in the world of cuddling today. Can't wait, Yeah, I

(07:30):
can't wait to get into the there there's a lot.
I mean, whether you listeners, whether you are pro cuddling
or anti cuddling, there's something in here for everyone. What
a divide, I know, I hope this is not too
controversial for people. Well, it's it's related to the are
you a hugger or not? Question? Because some people not
so much huggers. Other people all about the hug, always

(07:52):
going to go straight in for the hug. Sure, And
I do find that that relates to the larger personality.
I mean, if I don't consider myself a hugger, but
there are people that I enjoy hugging. Same with cuddling.
I never really considered myself much of a cuddler, and
still until I started dating boyfriend dog. Yeah, I consider
myself a hearty handshaker. We'll see. I'm anxious all the

(08:16):
time and my palms get sweaty. I hate handshaking. Yeah,
I mean, I don't mind a good hug every now
and then. Um, but you mentioned your boyfriend dog when
I asked my fiancee about cuddling, because of course I
needed to get the guy's perspective on the topic, because
there's a whole stereotyping of men don't like to cuddle,

(08:37):
cuddle something cuddling is something that only only chicks like
to do, and that in no way is an impression
of my fiance But I asked him whether he liked
cuddling or not because we we sleep real close, and
he said I was the first person he had ever

(08:58):
been down to cuddle. Interest sting, I know. And I
was walking on air for like two days, and but
I hate it. No, I love it. I love it.
And the next day I was in a really good
mood and he was like, this is because I told
you about the cuddling thing, isn't it. I was like,
maybe a little bit. Yeah, Well it's interesting to see,
and I mean, we'll we'll definitely get into all that
hard hitting cuddling research in a minute, but very hard hitting.

(09:21):
But it is interesting to think about it from a
personal perspective and and past relationships and current relationships about
how yeah, it does seem to be related to your
larger personality, for instance, whether you're a hugger and in
what circumstances, but also your attachment style. There's all this
research into whether you are UM an anxiously attached person
or a securely attached person or avoidant attachment, and whether

(09:46):
that means you will cuddle or not. So in terms
of the psychology of cuddling in these attachment styles, we
can look at it not just in romantic context but
also like platonic and familial context as well, because probably
the very first cuddling that we experience is when we're

(10:07):
little babies, being being cuddled and snuggled all over the time. UM.
And there has been a lot of research on childhood
development and cuddling and how it might influence attachment styles
and also um outcomes for kids. And in a piece
on cuddling, a very end up piece on cuddling and

(10:29):
Slate written by David Merritt John's um, he looks into
the history of our cultural attitudes towards that parent child cuddling. Yeah,
and so in the early twentieth century, UH, cuddling was
thought to be a negative in in the family context,
you you might be making your children too soft or

(10:51):
too dependent on you, um, which of course made me,
I say, of course, like you guys know what the
heck I'm talking about. But it made me think of
my grandma there, of course, my grandmother. Of course it
made me think of her too. I know. Well, my
dad's mom was a very cold woman, and so according
to family legend, I say that like nobody my family
ever met her was her mother. And it was said

(11:15):
that my great grandmother never hugged were cuddled up to
my grandmother because she herself had had sort of a
traumatic upbringing. Her mother died at a very young age.
Her stepmother like basically didn't like her. Um. So it
is like interesting to see that sort of cultural sadness

(11:36):
and unfortunateness passed down. Luckily, my dad was snugly with
me so well, and a lot of moms back in
the day were advised not to cuddle, especially during the
progressive era. Around the turn of the century, you have
the rise of what's called scientific mothering and uh David
Merritt John's sites this landmark text The Care and Feeding

(11:59):
of Children by pediatrician named Luther Emmett Holt, and it
was super popular to the point that the US Labor
Department actually recruited doctor Holt to write a mass produced
pamphlet on proper child rearing, which was a pamphlet. Guess,
a pamphlet back in the days when pamphlets were were cool.
Well that's all there is to parenting. It's like a
pamphlet worth Yeah, really, that's all you need. Um. So

(12:23):
it was unfortunate though, that Holt was tasked to write
these pamphlets because he was decidedly anti cuddling, and it
was kind of the um conflating cuddling with coddling. Um.
And and this even extended to rocking a baby. Holt
wrote by no means should you do that. It's a
habit easily acquired in a very useless and sometimes injurious one. Yeah,

(12:49):
my parents rocked me for a long time. So I
got home on the weekend and I just we hopped
in that rocker and I just I just rock off
to sleep. That sounds a real healthy attachment there, Caroline,
not not too close. Nothing, nothing is weird about that. Um.
And then in Parenting takes a psychological turn with the

(13:10):
publishing of Dr John Watson's Behavior is a Manual psychological
care of infant and child. And I mean he sounds
like a great, great guy that you'd really want to
invite over to your child's birthday party. He wrote, treat
them your children as though they were young adults. Never
hug and kiss them, never let them sit in your lap.

(13:31):
If you must, kiss them once on the forehead when
they say good night, shake hands with them in the morning.
So very half a very business appropriate relationship with your children.
Since I don't have any kids and only have a
very old Labrador Retriever, I'm just imagining doing doing them
that to Buddy, just kiss him on the forehead and

(13:52):
shaking a little Paul before I leave in the morning.
Does he shake? Yeah, you can shake. Yeah you can't, Caroline,
Smart Smart, You're a good dog mom. But then it's
in the World War two era when it seems like
cuddling starts to take on more gendered meanings in terms
of the stereotype that is alive and well today, of
assuming that guys aren't into cuddling and that cuddling is

(14:15):
not a manly, masculine thing to do. Because as we
talked about in our Mama's Boys podcast a while back,
this was the era of mom is um and along
with the popular psychologists of the day, there was this
idea that overmothering was ruining the nation's young men and

(14:38):
softening them and making them, you know, too attached to
their moms and the whole. I mean that extends to
representations on screen. You can see it in Psycho and
Norman baits um so. And that's also there are lots
of undercurrents of homophobia, I think as well, because wasn't
it in like the nineteen twenties that we start to
see the rise of well, because it's in the way

(15:00):
ake of psychoanalysis coming around all these fears of people
who don't leave their same sex tendencies behind. You know,
Freud wrote about, oh, well, everyone has an attraction to
members of the same sex, but then you leave it
behind or elt you become anal retentive. So it seems
like this is also rising with alongside fears of homosexuality. Yeah,

(15:21):
and I would assume that all of that embedded itself
into our cultural views of cuddling as well. Yeah. Well,
in the nineteen fifties we start to get more of
a clue that maternal nurture and presumably in with this
cuddling is important because we get psychologist Harry Harlow's famous
baby monkey experiments at the University of Wisconsin. And for

(15:44):
those of you who might not have taken like a
psychology one oh one class and read about this study,
it is so heartbreaking. Tell us about it, Caroline Well
monkey babies. UM. So, basically, he was seeking to find
out the whole nature of our his nurture argument, and
whether adoption children who were adopted could be happy, healthy,

(16:06):
and successful just like children who were biologically born to
their families. Um. And so he takes these infant monkeys
away from their mothers and puts them either with like
a wire structure of a monkey kind of the dispenses milk,
or a milk less wire structure that's covered with soft

(16:30):
hairry cloth. And he found that despite the fact that
neither one was an actual monkey or a mother, um,
the monkeys who grew up being able to cling to
cuddle with and rub on the terry cloth monkey pseudo
monkey developed more normally. Those who were able to comfort

(16:51):
themselves by going and kind of cuddling with this terry
cloth structure ended up being a little more normally developed
than the monkeys who grew up with the wire structure,
because they found that when they did test later and
either scared the monkeys or stressed them out, the ones
who grew up with the terry cloth mother reacted in
a more healthy way. They might run to the terry
cloth structure and kind of cling to it and then

(17:12):
be okay. They've helped adjust themselves to the fear of
the stress, whereas the ones that grew up with the
wire structure threw themselves down on the floor, screamed, got
in the fetal position, rocked back and forth. And they
said that it resembled the way that children who are
completely neglected or deprived from a young age react to

(17:32):
stress and fear. And it's also similar to what they
saw among a lot of adults who had been locked
away in um mental institutions for years. Well. And they
found too that if given the choice, the monkeys would
forego getting fed from the wire hanger the dispensed milk
and instead go get comfort in contact from the terry cloth. Yeah.

(17:53):
And he found by following these monkeys for a while,
following them down the street, I don't know, by like
curious George and his friend right by continuing to observe
the monkeys, he realized that no amount of later life cuddling,
affection whatever, could right the path of the monkeys. He'd
grown up with the wire structure well, and that need

(18:17):
for in eight need for cuddling in you know, the
primate species will come in later in the episode when
we talk about the science and evolutionary theories behind why
we do this kind of bizarre behavior of rubbing up
on each other. Oh, you're a joy to go to
a bar with, I guess, oh yes, oh yes. But

(18:39):
if we if we move from parent child cuddling, that
familial cuddling, to platonic friendly, same sex cuddling and look
at the culture around that in our assumptions, we see
that it gets very gendered very fast too, because it
used to be more common when and girls were largely

(19:01):
socialized separately. This would have been kind of pre twentieth century.
Boys and girls kind of grew up in their own spheres,
and so friendships between boys and girls were what I
should say, like between boys and boys and girls and
girls would be very intimate. I mean to the point
of a lot of you know, physical contact and intimacy

(19:21):
that we think of today in terms of girl friendships,
but not so much with boys. Yeah, I mean into
the early twentieth century, emotionally and physically expressive friendships between
men were super common, and guys would even share beds,
like the The story that jumps to mind is, of course,
Abraham Lincoln and Joshua Speed sharing a bed. And there's
all of these people today who look at that out

(19:44):
of context and they're like, oh, Lincoln must have been gay.
He was like gay. Oh my god, We're so afraid
of him. And it's like, well, okay, there's nothing to
be afraid of. But b you've got to look at
it in the context of the time when it was
super common for men to share beds and then for
men to share room. So there might be a bunch
of guys sharing a room if they're traveling. Yeah. And

(20:05):
John Ibsen actually published a whole book of photographic evidence
of these physically intimate friendships between men called Picturing men
Um And it's incredible to see this comfortable intimacy without
that that fear of being perceived as gay. It's this,
you know, I mean, it's homophobia free expressions of of

(20:29):
genuine love between dudes and it's really sweet to see
guys not just like with their arms around each other, um,
but really close, like legs entwined and having those formal
poses that you might see like family portraits, but two
men with like their arms resting on each other's thighs.
And it really it doesn't seem sure. There was one

(20:49):
like Civil War air picture where a guy sitting on
his buddies lapsing for the camera, you know, like you do.
There's only one chair. What are you supposed to do
but signal ling that homophobia may at long last be waning,
and my goodness, we certainly hope it is a viral
study among forty British male student athletes found thirty seven

(21:13):
of them reported cuddling with their bros, even describing the
super chill way that they deal with accidental erections. Let's
say that the big spoon, you know they're like bros
hanging out binging on Netflix on the couch, wants the
big spoon and because of contact, you know, he gets
an erection. And they told the researchers that they usually

(21:37):
deal with it one of two ways, where the little
spoon is like, hey mate, you know, get rid of
your erection. Or then the other guys like I'm gonna
go pop to the loop b r B and then
they just you know, take care of it. I mean,
Caroline's true. And it might sound and listeners, I know

(22:01):
that might sound far fetch, but I am legitimately recounting
what is in this right qualitative study. It's a study,
but and it's a study that went viral. The thing
is about the study, a very small sample study sample,
but also judging by the coverage that it got and

(22:22):
a lot of leaping to lots of conclusions about how, oh,
college boys cuddle each other all of the time. Um,
is I don't know, to me a sign that we
we maybe aren't so far away from cuddling if we're
so amazed at the fact that, you know, um, athletic
jock kind of dudes can touch each other and it's fine.

(22:43):
I mean, we talked about this back in the day
in our Bromance episode, which I encourage you to go
listen to if this topic interest to you. Um, because yeah,
in that episode, which was a couple of years ago,
we talked about trend pieces looking at dudes, bros, guys
who were like cuddle. So what we're just buds were
friends and um for guys listening, I don't want to

(23:05):
imply that anytime you cuddle you automatically get a direction.
I'm just saying that that was something that was noted
in that study. Right, sometimes it happens, Sometimes it happened,
wanders whatever. But if we look at girlfriends cuddling in
this context of what are called romantic friendships, they were

(23:27):
and still are super common. I mean, as I was
reading about, you know, girls cuddling their girl friends, I
immediately thought of Girls the show. I mean, there are
so many scenes of uh, Lena and her friends being
in bed together, taking baths together. It's very close and
physically intimate. Yeah, like all my two best girlfriends in

(23:49):
the world, if we're like on the couch or whatever,
we'll totally like throw our legs over each other whatever
without a thought. Like but then it's the same thing
as as what we talked about at the top of
the podcast, with like hugging or you know, who do
you cuddle with or who do you want to cuddle with?
There is that degree of like super closeness for me
that proceeds like I'm gonna throw my legs over your

(24:10):
lap you're just gonna deal with it. Listen, You're gonna
swaddle me and rock me like a baby. You want
to be my bff. Yeah, I have weird weekend. Um,
But this was really interesting to see in the early
twentieth century, as homophobia starts creeping in and it is,
it's interesting to see for girls and and female friendships.

(24:33):
How in the same way that homophobia started creeping into
guy friendships, a lot of it being fueled by the
rise of psychoanalysis, there was concern about physical intimacy between
girl friendships as well. Um, as marriages for love became

(24:54):
the norm, especially once we get into the nineteen hundreds,
and along with the idea of your spouse being a friend, um,
there were warnings to parents that they should make sure
that their daughters aren't too physically friendly with their girlfriends
because that might lead to lesbianism because of our quote

(25:15):
unbridled libidos. Um. Yeah. William James uh was writing in
the eighteen seventies, I believe, and I was discussing how men,
you know, just have this natural aversion to wanting to
be attracted to their male peers. You know, it's inherent

(25:37):
in us, but it's disgusting, and so there's a natural
aversion to it, whereas you know that natural aversion is
not as strong or as common in women because we're
also pretty, you know, we are so and so soft
it smell good. But I just I think it's so
funny when you come back through history and you look

(25:58):
at from particularly men's view of like women's relationships with
or without sexuality involved. But like there there are so
many anxieties prop up around this time. Well, I mean,
and and definitely the rules for expressiveness in men's friendships

(26:18):
have been far more rigid in modern times because I mean,
even even though yes, there was that that panic over
same sex attraction within girl friendships, still because of the
assumption that women are naturally more nurturing, um, cuddling and
those kinds of behaviors have still been accepted though, I mean,

(26:41):
you have you know, girls are probably likelier to have
sleepovers where we brush each other's hair and oh my god,
being in elementary school and the library for reading time,
and like having your best girlfriends braid your hair or
you give each other massages, give each other's nails. I
wish someone would come braid my hair out. It's like
the most soothing. Maybe that's a cure for insomnia. That's

(27:03):
probably weird. I don't think my boyfriend would braid my hair.
Have you asked? I haven't? You know, you never know,
not a topic I've broached. Well, speaking of your boyfriend
braiding your hair, Caroline, that's the perfect segue to talking
about opposite sex cuddling, because it's always been this fraud
issue because of the sex factor and the whole accidental

(27:27):
for play factor. Yeah. So, if you go back to
eighteenth century colonial America, which let me tell you, was
a laugh riot, which is real fun. Back then, wintertime
courtship might have involved this thing called bundling, which to me,
in my head, even though I know what it is,
I still just pictured two people in sleeping bags bumping
up against each other. It was kind of like that.

(27:48):
I know. It was basically trial cuddling for people who
were likely on the marriage track. So it's wintertime, it's cold,
you don't have central heat and air, God forbid, and
so the guy would sleep over at the girl's house
in the same bed. And of course this was more
about body heat than lust per se, although I'm sure

(28:11):
that there was a lust undercurrent lounder current alunder current
a lounder current. Um. And this was supposed to help
see if they were compatible for marriage, but to prevent
the sex from happening. They might sleep in this bifurcated
bundling sack, which again like do they make these at

(28:31):
camping stores? Can I get these? Yeah? At yield ARII
had the bifurcated bundling sack. Um. I'm sure, like all
with this artisan thing going on, I'm sure, like Etsy,
somebody makes bifurcated bundling. Do you want to bring back bundling? Yeah,
bundler Yeah, it's our new it's our tender app competitor,
right and and like those apps, there's no e er,

(28:53):
it's just are of course bundle Um. So they would
be in the sack and or have a bundle ing
board between them, and I'm like, wait, why are you
having a board if this is about body heat? Well,
I bet Caroline, the loundertones combined with the body heat
would permeate the bundling board, which listeners. A bundling board

(29:15):
is exactly what it sounds like. It's just it's just
a board that they put down the middle of the bed. Yeah,
and so I mean, at least in this way, if
those undertones do overtake you, the family would at least
know what man was responsible for impregnating their daughter. Yeah,
I mean, because it's funny. So this was happening in
the context of premarital pregnancy being on the rise. So

(29:41):
this was kind of a way for parents to be like, listen,
I guess if it's going to happen, we need to
know who to marry a little susan off to, just
in case. The Puritans though, by the way, we're just
outraged by this whole bundling trend um. But as our
sexual mores have loosened up as we and dart bundling boards,

(30:01):
so to speak, much of our headonormative romantic cuddling discourse
really revolves around two major assumptions. That men use cuddling
to initiate sex, and that women use cuddling to bond
after sex. Yeah, very divided these assumptions. Yeah, for us,
it's bonding, for them, it's just spreading their feed. Yeah.

(30:25):
And so we're gonna unravel the gendering of these cuddle
preferences when we come right back from a quick break.
So before we get into the cuddling battle of the

(30:45):
sexes in quotes. Let's talk for a minute about why
this behavior permeates our closest relationships, because there is some
science to this. Yeah, I mean, basically it promotes bonding.
You get the release of oxytocin, which is that bonding hormone,
and it basically communicates social information, including touch, to our

(31:09):
brains reward system. It's like it's like candy. It's like
eating a delicious chocolate bar. Yeah, it would be like
when when your boyfriend dog braids your hair, your oxytocin
would are we are we in our bundling sack, in
your bundling sack. Yes, your oxytocin in your brain would
gather up boyfriend dog hair braiding, the sense of calm

(31:33):
and then deliver that to your brain's reward system and
you'd be like, oh, I really like that, right, and
so then your stress levels plummet. As basically, anyone who's
had a good old cuddle can attest that good old cuddle,
good old cuddle, little cuddle, puddle, good solid cup. So
if we look back for a minute at that parent
child cuddling, we start to see this these neurological benefits

(31:55):
playing out from the very beginnings of our lives because
our rains really are wired to enjoy this. Uh. There
was a study published in two thousand nine in Nature Neuroscience,
for instance, that located receptors in our skin that transmit
pleasant touch sensations not limited to cuddling. But in a way,

(32:17):
they're kind of like our cuddle receptors, being like, oh,
I like, I like how this feels. This is nice,
I feel safe. Yeah, my boyfriend has strong cuddle receptors.
But we'll get into that when we talk more about
the gender division. But so, speaking of people with strong
cuddling receptors, there's this mom from Amsterdam, and Kristen and
I both posted this to our social media because it
was like kind of funny but also horrifying. She knitted

(32:42):
a full life size replica of her son. She knitted
a suit of her son because she was like, he
doesn't cuddle with me as much anymore now that he's
a teen or a tween or whatever, and so you know,
I wanted to hold onto those cuddling day is, so
I knitted a suit of him. Yeah, and it looks

(33:03):
super creepy because he wears it, like it's hollow. It's
not like she stuffed it with stuffing. I mean, like
her human son wears it. Okay, but here's the thing, Um,
I feel a little bad for her because of course
the story went viral and people freaked out saying like,
you're the creepiest mom on earth. Also, how long did
that take? But anyway, Uh, it was a joke. She

(33:24):
did it, you know, trying to be funny, but of
course some things were lost in translation and people just
saw cuddling son and this kind of disturbing replica. Yeah,
bless her heart. It is a horrifying it's a horrifying creation.
It's a little and I totally dig the sense of
humor though, but if you really just literally do see

(33:48):
the picture and the quote about like I miss cuddling
my son because I know. On when I posted it
to our tumbler, people were like, oh my god, this
woman needs help. Yeah yeah, but there is some science
to do back up that desire, her desire to cuddle
her song, because I think that is legit. Because when
we did post it to the stuff I've Never Told

(34:08):
You Facebook page, a few moms commented saying, I know
exactly what she's talking about because it's in our d
n A. A two thousand six study found quote a
maternal predisposition toward touch significantly predicted babies touch receptivity, and
another study found twins tend to have comparable cuddle levels.

(34:32):
So I mean, it seems like if you, if you
are like this lady and you really like to, you know, cuddle,
and that's one of your love languages, you might say, yeah,
one of the ways that you bond, then um, then yeah,
maybe you maybe you do knit a life size replica
of your child. Sure, yeah, if you're into that, I
bet she's a hugger too. Oh yeah, But I thought

(34:55):
it was interesting. In that Slate piece when David Merritt
John's was talking about the sex difference between male and
female babies cuddle receptivity, he says that it's basically when
he was speaking with temperament experts, but he said it
was basically the same no matter the sex of the child.
It's just that some babies, male or female, aren't as

(35:17):
down for super cuddling as others. Some are total snuggle
babies and others are like, well, I'm gonna go stiff
as a board, Please put me down. Yeah, it's about
fifteen percent or kind of like cats. You know, it's
trying to cuddle a cat and it's like, oh, get
me out of here, um and oh man, I love
trying to cuddle a cat because it's just fun shouting
some are down. Before we came into the studio, I

(35:38):
was just talking to Holloway from History stuff about kiddies,
and she was like, because I told her how much
I wanted a dog, and she was like, well, you know,
you should get a cat. And I was like, well,
if I could guarantee that it would be a cuddly
dog like cat, I would totally get one. But you
never know. Well, listeners, if you know of any good
dog like cats Caroline could cuddle, let us know and
please send pictures. Yeah, I'll rent it, Like I mean,

(35:59):
I can't have a pet right now, but like I'll
absolutely rent it from you rent a kitty. Um. So
if we look though at friendly cuddling, that same sex
platonic cuddling that we talked about a little while ago,
scientists think that it might be our primate version of
grooming each other. So Caroline, I'm not going to come
up to you and like dig through your hair and

(36:21):
look for fleas or or bugs or things like that.
Thank you, You're welcome as much as I want to. Um.
But they think that, you know, our cuddling behavior is
related to that. I mean, think of how you know,
girlfriends will hold hands, will link arms. We I mean,
I might brush your hair and then and then secretly

(36:41):
try to see if you have any any phase in
your hair, so that you know to bolt if you
see one. Well, didn't. These researchers also say that they
thought that not only was the primate you know, tick
searching or flea searching and grooming a precursor to our cuddling,
but that it was also a precursor to like gossip circles.

(37:02):
It's a way to spend time with people you love
and care about in like an intimate way. Um. And
then you know, once we actually gain the ability to
talk and say human words. Uh, then we're just talking
smack about the cave women next to us. I think
about this too whenever, Um, I groom my dog. Now,
you guys tell each other's secret. Yes, he tells me

(37:23):
all of his secrets, and I brush out his old fur.
You know, good way to spend time together and gossip
about the other dogs, that your your apartment complex is
always talking smack about my fiance. Let me just tell
you home man. But when it comes to romantic cuddling,
the cuddling, that's that's the most controversial, the most fraught

(37:44):
with stereotypes. Evolutionary theory explains post quital cuddling motivated by
women wanting to make sure that the dude who might
have just impregnated her is going to stick around and
gotta love some always heteronormative and predictable evolutionary theory because

(38:06):
on the flip side, they maintain that men might be
more inclined to engage in more hedonic activities like pleasure
seeking activities like having a smoke, eating or having sex
again rather than wanting to cuddle, because guys are just
about that, about that pleasure center, all about that base. Um.
Which great, that's gonna be in my head forever now. Um.

(38:30):
But biologically, researchers say cuddling off of boost sexual attraction
because it's linked to an increase in testosterone, which might
also explain how cuddling does double duty as both for
play and post coital relaxing. And there was this study
in the archives of sexual behavior that we looked at
that discussed how couples who partake in post sex cuddling

(38:54):
felt more satisfied with their sex lives but also their
relationships in general. And they found it mattered. Cuddling mattered
more than the fore play or the duration of the
actual intercourse because our brains look at it as a
positive post sex reward, and I can only imagine that
no matter male or female, if you do have this

(39:16):
stronger like touch reward receptors, that it's even better. But
what's what I loved is that they found that it's
not just post coital like I feel so rewarded, so fulfilled,
I'm so happy with my partner, but also the effects
lasted for a long time, like months, Yeah, I mean,
and even isolated outside of sex, just cuddling on its

(39:38):
own when you're laying on the couch and bene watching Netflix.
Yet again, it can be, you know, a bonding activity
for couples, not surprisingly, and there's research to back it up.
So I mean, it's just funny in looking up research
for this podcast, how the media really love to make

(40:00):
like sweeping generalizations about cuddling. Um in terms of oh science,
finally proves that couples who cuddle are better than everyone else,
or science proves that men love cuddling and women actually
loathe it. And we've kind of concocted, because of a
lot of our sort of misinterpretation of studies, um and

(40:21):
and assumptions, uh, that there is this cuddling war going
on in this battle of the sexes, almost the most
adorable war, the softest care bears just hitting each other
with pillows. Yeah, exactly, because the assumption that most men

(40:41):
don't like cuddling is based far more on gender norms
than hardwiring, all of that neuroscience we've just been talking about.
For instance, in nineteen seventy six, scientists Mark Hollander at
Vanderbilt studied gender differences in cuddling. On the basis. Going
into this study, h Hollander assumed that, quote, according to

(41:04):
our prevailing viewpoint, it's unmanly to want to be held
or cuddled. Only women are permitted or encouraged to express
such feminine wishes. Yeah, but when you look at statistics,
which we so love to do, there isn't really a
huge difference. And how much all dudes and all ladies
like to cuddle. Yeah, as much as a headline every

(41:26):
other month will claim that, oh yeah, women really do
love to cuddle. No no, no, wait, it's actually guys
who love to cuddle more than women. No, it's it's
kind of it's kind of breaks even, sort of like
the sex differences in babies, where it's like, you know,
we just have a subset where they're they're just the cats,
the cats of the world who don't want to be cuddled. Right.
There was this twenty eleven Kinds the Institute study on

(41:49):
older long term couples that found a slightly stronger twelve
versus nine relationship between cuddling and kissing and relationship satisfied
action among men. Of course, there's all sorts of things
you have to take into account, including like who in
this long term study has dropped out due to divorce,
Like maybe all you're left with is the people who

(42:10):
genuinely just love spending time together. Well, and the chicken
egg too, of which comes first the relationship satisfaction or
cuddling and kissing behavior. But the way that three percent
edge was interpreted in headlines across the internet was men
love cuddling. They love it way more than women. So
much more than women. And I feel like if you

(42:31):
just ask humans about cuddling, it's like what we've been
saying the past couple of minutes that it's literally like, yeah,
you've got some people who like it and some people
who don't, and some people like me who really hated
it and weren't really down with it until they met
their person exactly. Yeah. Um, But there is an interesting
link to between cuddling and attachment styles, So we talked

(42:56):
about um earlier in the podcast. A two thousand and
fourteen stuff examining attachment style and both cuddling among parent
child relationships and romantic relationships did find that women overall
reported more positive feelings about cuddling, but the researchers weren't
entirely sure why. Well, here's the thing I mean. So,

(43:17):
as you mentioned at the top of the podcast, you've
got the spectrum of attachment styles, everything from avoidant attachment,
which is like, oh, I love you, but like I'm
going to keep an arm out, uh, to secure attachment,
which is you're well adjusted, you like cuddling, You're not
going to spend twenty four hours a day with your person,
but you love them whatever. All the way to the
anxious attachment, which is fear of abandonment. It's I've got

(43:40):
to cuddle you because you might leave me, Like I've
got to cuddle you because it makes me feel better.
It's a self seething behavior. And as I was reading this,
I was like, oh, okay, Because although my boyfriend and
I are sort of each at the middle of the
spectrum in terms of attachment styles, I would say that
I am I don't I don't know, left of center
in terms of the avoidant attachment style, and he's a

(44:02):
little bit right of center in terms of the anxious
attachment style. Although we are obviously very secure with each
other and in love and all that griss stuff. But
I think that that sort of helps encapsulate our individual
relationship with cuddling, where I came into being like, uh,
and he just I mean that boy wants to cuddle
all the time. But a notable thing about that study

(44:22):
on attachment style and cuddling was that avoidantly attached people
were not down to cuddle. They found like there was
a strong relationship between you know, not being into it
and being avoidantly attached, Whereas you would assume that anxiously
attached people would want to cuddle all the time, but
researchers um like, to their surprise, did not find a

(44:45):
relationship wasn't It was a much weaker link between the
anxiously attached style and cuddling. So it could just be
that my boyfriend just like likes to cuddle just I mean,
I wonder if that speaks so to the universality of
ling where I mean, it is such a such a
common behavior that it's not really much of an outlier

(45:07):
for someone to like to to cuddle. Yeah. Sure, I mean,
I'm definitely a convert, you know. Like my boyfriend had
been um basically like out of town for two weeks,
and I went over to his house that was night,
and we just lay on the couch just like silently
just cuddled for a long time. It was a way
to reconnect. It's that it's that oxytocin, those good bonding chemicals.

(45:27):
You gotta get that oxytocin refilled sometimes. And you know what,
I was the big spin, Oh, yeah, that's really sweet
because your boyfriend is super tall. I know, I just
love cuddling up to that. But but even in hookup context,
there isn't a huge gender gap either. And I was

(45:49):
thrilled to see this studied because I feel like this
is where the cuddling stereotypes totally come out of UM
Anecdotally in conversations I've had with my girlfriends about hookups.
UM Binghamton Universities, justin Garcia UM did a survey and
found that dudes and sixty one of women wanted to

(46:10):
snuggle post hook ups. So yeah, more women, but still
a lot of dudes. Meanwhile, in committed relationships, there was
no difference at all of all the people wanted to
cuddle and liked doing it. UM. So that said to me, like,
we are maybe making up some of these stereotypes. Obviously

(46:32):
there are some some differences, but they are narrower than
we probably assume or tend to read into. Well, it's
all of the crap about gender norms. It's almost like
we want to believe it. It's funny. It's like it's
funny to believe that a man who likes to cuddle
is feminine or weak or whatever or like Macina smother

(46:56):
you clingy. Yeah, all of that junk, and that you
know woman who doesn't like to cuddle is you know
a tramp who's going to leave you, she's so tough,
doesn't need to cuddle so independent. Um, in straight long
term couple of contexts because ps, there is zero research
at least that we found on same sex snuggling, so

(47:18):
researchers up to it well same sex romantic relationships, not
same sex platonic friends specifically British college jocks, um. But
in the straight long term couple contexts, cuddling is mutually
beneficial related to healthy, satisfied relationships, whether it's used to

(47:39):
initiate sex or not. And that's something Caroline, that you
talked about in that study where it's like whether we're
doing it before sex, after sex, are just on a
random evening when you haven't seen each other in a
long time. Cuddling can be good for you and it
makes a lot of sense because of the you know,
the physiological effects of it. Well, you mentioned that there's

(47:59):
little to no research among same sex romantic relationships uncuddling,
but this is also an area where we could use
more research for the a sexual community. You know, we've
we've got a lot of letters in recent months from
members of the a sexual and a romantic community who
you know, obviously want to hear themselves represented in media

(48:22):
and in research, and there's really nothing out there about
them either. Yeah, I mean they have a lot of
kind of crowdsourced resources. And um, I looked in that
for thoughts on cuddling because there are people within you know,
the A sexuality spectrum who are totally down to snuggle

(48:43):
and really love snuggling and cuddling and spooning, but just
don't desire any sexual contact beyond that. And so there
are you know, lots of questions at that point for
you know, for their partners, how do they you know,
make sure that's not misleading in any kind of way. Um?

(49:03):
And is it mutually satisfying? And so I would love
to hear from any a sexual or a romantic listeners
about the cuddling issue too. And a word about context.
And you hinted it this Carolina a second ago when
you said that you are cuddling convert, because I mean,

(49:25):
I think how much someone likes cuddling in the moment
when you ask them like do you enjoy cuddling depends
a lot on the circumstances around it. Are you tired?
Is it super hot in the room? Are you not
really like into that person? Who's next to you for
whatever reason. You know, Sometimes do you just want to

(49:47):
sleep on your stomach with a pillow over your head
and call it a day? Yes, I do. My name
is Kristen. Yeah. No, I Even within my relationship, there
are obviously times that I'm like, get away from me,
especially when it's time to sleep, Like I'm fine cuddling
up before we go to sleep, but when it's time
for lights out, like, get off me, don't touch me.

(50:08):
Although of course it's freezing in my boyfriend's house all
the time. Sometimes we'll do the thing and this is
probably t m I, but we'll like fall asleep kind
of snuggled up because we're freezing, and then wake up
in the middle of the night drenched. I know that
feeling Well, sorry for grossing anyone out, but I mean,
if you don't have a super cuddler like my boyfriend,

(50:31):
which you better not, Uh, there are other cuddling opportunities
out there. Okay, Yes, this brings us to the strangest
wrinkle in this cuddle puddle. More people these days are
cuddling with perfect strangers like Balky. Yes, where people are
cuddling Balky um. And here's the thing. While it scientifically

(50:55):
makes sense that we crave pleasant touch and it's physiological effects,
does not make any socio scientific sense to cuddle with
a stranger because it kind of violates so many norms
and uh is perplexing to a lot of researchers because

(51:16):
I mean, even even for me, as someone who is
um more of a non hugger than a than a hugger,
the idea of just meeting someone in a park and
laying down and then having their you know, body odor
and and hot breath so close to me and not
knowing them makes my skin crawl because it just seems

(51:36):
so it seems very unsafe to me. Um, but there's
an app for that. If you are a cuddler and
there are a lot of colors out there, has someone
already made bundler? No one's made bundler. We can make
buddler okay, okay, and our bifurcated bundle bags trademarked Sminty
of course. Yes. Um, but there is an app formerly

(51:58):
known as cuddler. It's called Spooner, and geo locates people
around you who are down for a cuddle. Yeah. This
sounded like woe danger zone to me because just you know,
dating websites can be sketched in general, or websites apps.
I don't know, I'm old. Hello, Um, anything in the
outside world. Yeah, things that are outside of my comfort zone,

(52:21):
I e. The podcast studio. Um. But Charlie Williams, who's
the founder of Spooner, told Salon that I think is
a culture we're ready to consider. Cuddling is more than
just something that happens before after sex, but it's something
worth pursuing in its own right. Cuddling takes communication, respect
for boundaries, and self control. And he's telling them all
about how like, no, it's totally fine, it's totally safe,

(52:43):
Like it helps you and even in your personal life
work on your communication skills about what you want, what
you don't want. And this is not about sex. This
is not meeting to pick people up for sex. This
is literally for cuddling. And hey, if people like hit
it off and want a date after, like cool, that's fine.
But I was reading this like, there's no way that
is so like murder central in my brain. And and

(53:07):
I know a lot of people out there are we
just got really offended. I'm I'm i am sorry. That's
just me personally being totally afraid to cuddle with strangers. Yeah, yeah,
you and I have similar I think personal cuddle boundaries. Yeah,
I mean that sense if I don't even like shaking hands,
and you don't want a sweaty cuttle, I don't I have.
When I was in high school, UM, like a bunch

(53:30):
of friends and I used to have like we'd all
be hanging out at night or whatever, and we used
to have, um basically the congo line equivalent of cuddling.
There would be like fifteen or twenty of us like
lying down, just spooning. It was hysterical. Maybe some alcohol
was involved. It's the smelly cuttle um when I don't

(53:51):
have her name in front of me. But a writer
over at Daily Dot tested out the Spooner app, and
one of her main complaints in terms of safe d
was that you can't um select by gender. So if
you want a same sex cuddle because that might make
you feel safer, um, Spooner doesn't let you do that

(54:13):
because Williams thinks that you know, it should be because
Williams thinks that it shouldn't be a sexual thing. But
in her experience, the people who are messaging her were
almost exclusively dudes who seem to want uh well, who
want a sexy times Hello, have you been on the internet. Yes,

(54:34):
that is how those things are gonna work. Sorry, Charlie Williams.
And you're like utopian view of cuddling apps literally, sorry Charlie. Yeah, yeah,
I wonder though, if there are any listeners who have
tried spooner, please tell us if it goes better then
it seems like it might. This is why the world
needs Bundler, Kristen. We would ensure that there was a

(54:54):
gender selection, but would it only be for proper courtship.
I don't know. I haven't thought that. We haven't. We
haven't developed our business plan yet. Um. But if you
want to cuddle in a safer context, you can go
to a cuddle party. Caudle parties exist and they are
organized by groups around the country, like Minnesota's Nurture Yourself,

(55:14):
Um and you started in early two thousand's And usually
if you go to a cuddle party, it's exactly what
it sounds like. It's kind of like Carolines high school experience,
minus the booze. You're not allowed to go drunk, um,
but you wear pj's a lot of cuddle party rules
asked that you don't eat garlic beforehand. Smart are very smart,
and I will give them this. There are a lot

(55:36):
of rules around consent. Yeah. Yeah, they make sure to
set it up ahead of time that you know, no
means no respect everybody's boundaries, all of that stuff, which
is incredibly important in any context. But I especially appreciated
how Nurture Yourself noted that crying and giggling are encouraged
at their cuddle parties. Um, and it's exactly what it

(55:58):
sounds like. I mean, you kind of you start off
with sort of a group orientation and then gradually it
evolves into one giant cuddle puddle. Yeah, and people are
making money off of this. People are there are professional
cuddlers out there. And you know, we're not talking about
some Japanese trend that has probably been misinterpreted in American media.

(56:18):
We're talking about in the United States, professional cuddlers have
opened up shop. And this was reported on in the
Wall Street Journal, which I especially appreciate it. I love
picturing my father picking up the Wall Street Journal, which
he gets in the mail, and reading an article about

(56:38):
professional cuddlers. I imagine he just clears his throat very
and comfortably, puts the paper down and makes a sandwich.
But it's a serious business. These professional cuddlers will charge
clients for non sexual snuggles. Obviously the number one thing
that these professionals have to combat our perceptions that it
is a form of prostitute san essentially her sex work. Um.

(57:02):
But business names include Cuddle Up to Me, The Snuggery,
and Cuttle Therapy. And I think Cuddle Therapy was one
of the original ones, open not surprisingly in San Francisco.
And I mean, obviously it is easy to laugh and
dismiss this kind of stuff, but they also talked to
a woman named Samantha Hess who opened up Portland's Cuddle
Up to Me, and she specializes in cuddles for people

(57:25):
who've experienced trauma, people with autism, and she says that
she regularly sees people with disabilities and disfigurements who just
in a very human nature way, just need that human contact. Yeah,
I mean, in that way, it's um it makes sense
that these businesses exist and that in that clients seek
them out for for non sexual purposes. Just I think

(57:47):
it was it was her talking about how you know,
a lot of These people just want to feel special
and loved for a moment um. And she's actually developed
an entire curriculum of areas, types of cuddles that clients
can come in and select. Um. I think there are
lots of elderly patients or clients I should say as well,

(58:09):
because they live in such isolation. Human touch is so important,
it is. I'm a total convert, Yeah, todu to professional cuddling. Uh,
not for me personally, but now I'm a I'm a
convert since I started dating my boyfriend to convert general cuddling. Well,

(58:30):
now I'm curious to know about our listeners. Are you
into cuddling? Do you have any thoughts about cuddling? Have
you ever been to a cuddle party? We want to
know all of your cuddling thoughts and guys, do you
ever encounter those bogus gender stereotypes if you're a dude
who likes to cuddle, has it ever backfired on you?
Mom Stuff at house stuff works dot Com is our

(58:52):
mailing address. You can also tweet us at mom stuff
podcast or messages on Facebook and We've got a couple
of messages to share with you when we come right
back from a break, Caroline. I'm in the process of
giving my personal site, christ and Conger dot com a
makeover thanks to square Space, and I can tell you
firsthand that it is super easy to use, intuitive and

(59:15):
they have fantastic design aesthetics. So my new site is
going to look real nice. It's just pictures of Beyonce though,
right pretty much? Yeah? Basically, um So, regardless of what
celebrity you put on your personal website, we use square Space.
It's going to look professionally designed, regardless of skill level,
and there's no coding required. They've got intuitive and easy

(59:36):
to use tools, and you get a free domain if
you sign up for a year. But folks, that means
that Kristen Conger dot com is taken, so don't even dry.
But to start your free trial today, head on over
to square space dot com. And when you de sign
to sign up for square Space, make sure you use
our offer code mom staff to get ten percent off

(59:59):
your first per which squarespace you should. And now back
to the show. I have a let her here from
Michelle in response to our episode on Wrinkles. She says, Hello,
I've been listening for a long time and I'm writing
in for the first time. Now. I just listen to
your episode on wrinkles, and something you mentioned sounded exactly

(01:00:22):
like what I've been told in real life. You talked
about a study where older women are judged to look
angry and unapproachable because of their sagging skin. Those exact
same words angry and unapproachable were thrown at me in
a job evaluation a couple of years ago. I'm fairly
young and don't have wrinkles yet, but do have resting
bitch face. I'm already hyper conscious of what my face

(01:00:44):
is doing at all times now thanks to that evaluation,
and I'm terrified now of what's going to happen when
I start getting wrinkles. Will I be judged to be
even angrier and more unapproachable than I am now? Will
I live alone forever with my cat because other humans
don't think I'm pleasant enough of The connection between resting
bitch face and wrinkles is one I hadn't made before.
Men are allowed to have normal, resting faces and age

(01:01:07):
while women are not. At the same time, a male
coworker that had what I would call arresting angry face
and I were talking about our evaluations. I told him
that I was called angry. He said that he was
simply told to work on his communication skills. It's enough
to make my mood reflect what my face is apparently
already showing. Here's to hoping that society changes enough by

(01:01:29):
the time I start getting wrinkles to keep me from
being friendless forever. I know you've done a video on
resting bitch Face, but if you ever do a whole podcast,
I'll certainly be interested. Thank you for all the work
you do well. Thank you, Michelle, and I'm sorry about
your evaluation at work. That's a fantastic idea. We should
so do a Resting Bitch Face episode. Uh So, I've

(01:01:53):
got a letter here from Janice about our street Art
Sisterhood podcast, and she writes, while I'm not at artists,
I am a professional visual artist. About three years ago,
I took a deep breath, scrapped the serving job I had,
and went into business for myself full time as an artist.
Since then, I've been really working to build my portfolio
and get into galleries and such here in the Austin

(01:02:15):
area while surviving off of commissions and a part time
job at a local arts store. Thanks to the Internet,
I'm now able to reach an audience that allows me
to actually do this, but it also gives me a
mask to wear, and it sometimes gives me some interesting
insights into how artists are viewed. One such insight I've
blamed is that people almost always assume that I'm male.
I'm almost without fail, referred to as a heat even

(01:02:38):
though my name is Jannist and a lot of people
find me through my website. Here's a real insight though,
for myself. I learned early on that the mask of
anonymity can actually help me get a better sale. I'm
not sure why, but when people find out I'm female,
they seem to want to haggle with the price more.
Not sure if everyone else's experiences, but it seems that

(01:02:58):
people think the work of women is somehow diminished versus
the work of a male counterpart. I've only been listening
to your podcast for about a month, and I'm so
excited to have found you, and I listened to you
know all the time while I'm painting and creating. Thank
you so much for the really interesting topics and a
more female viewpoint. A lot of podcasts have resonated with
me a great deal and I'm excited to go back
through all of the interesting topics. So thank you, Janie

(01:03:22):
and for other visual artists out there listening. I'm curious
if you found a similar thing in terms of people
wanting to haggle more with you and talk your price
down once they find out. But you are a lady creator.
Let us know mom stuff at house stuff works dot
Com is our email address and for links to all
of our social media as well as all of our blogs,

(01:03:42):
videos and podcasts with our sources so you can learn
more about the science of cuddling. Head on over to
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this and thousands of other topics. Because it housetof works
dot com. Se