SMNTY Classics: Feminism and the English Language with Wordslut

In this classic episode, Amanda Montell, author of 'Wordslut: A Feminist Guide to Taking Back the English Language', stops by to discuss reclaiming gendered insults, cursing, women's linguistic innovation, sexism in our language and owning your own voice.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I don't become to
stuff I never told you production of iHeart Radio. And
today we are bringing back a classic episode that we
did with the author of a Word Slut, A Feminist
Guide to taking Back the English Language by Amanda Montil,

(00:28):
and we're bringing it back based on our recent episode
about euphemisms about women masturbating, and there were so many
good ones there were, and it it's kind of become
a problem for me because now I can't stop thinking
of other euphemisms. I know, not necessarily about that, but

(00:49):
it's infiltrated my life, is what I'm trying to say.
And then I got like a very irresistible urge that
I'm trying to ignore to explain my orgasm and how
to or oh, I could do the how to if
you want it, like you might need to do a
how to. Oh Oh my gosh, I have I have

(01:11):
it down. But no, I was more like the crest
and falls of an orgasms. There is enough and how
it can last for an hour because I'm sure people
some people are listening and like there's no where that's possible, like,
oh it is, but it does have like ups and

(01:31):
downs it's kind of flowing, yes, but it's continuous. But
also the highs and the loaves. Anyway, I'm really digging
my whole much deeper now. But yes, we wanted to
bring this back because I do think there was a
conversation we had in here that is related. So please enjoy. Hey,

(01:55):
this is Annie and Samantha. I'm welcome to Stepman ever
told you protection of I Heart Radio. Today, we are
very excited to be joined by Amanda Montell, who is
a writer and a linguist, an author of the book

(02:17):
Words Sluts, a Feminist Guide to taking Back the English Language.
Thank you so much for being with us, Amanda, Oh,
thank you so much for having me. I I've often
told that I come with a wealth of information that
people's mom's never told them, so I thought this would
be a perfect fit. I'm thrilled to be here. I mean,
to be fair, In your book, you do talk to

(02:38):
moms about their outdated language, so that's kind of like
even better, you tell moms what they don't know. Yeah, yeah,
it's true. I um I found that moms really enjoy
words slut. I think the phrase word slut is you know,
it's scandalous but it's not too scandalous for a mom.
You know. It's a juxtaposition of a sort of like

(03:01):
nerdy word, which is word, and then an asy word,
which is slut. But you put them together and it's
sort of the crown nut of of an expletive that
mom seemed to be okay with, which is good because really,
this is a book about feminist socio linguistics that people
of of all of all genders and all ages, especially
those in their middle age, probably need. So first of all,

(03:24):
I'll give you a point for just just saying crow
nut in any kind of analogy, So good job. Oh well, anyone,
anyone who knows who knows that I am a portmanteau
slot portmanteau, portmanteau being a hybrid of of two different
words to create a new one, like brunch, frenemy, angry, affluenza,

(03:44):
man splain. There are a great many portmanteaus that the
feminist movement has come up with in order to name
previously unspoken experiences like man splain her story. Frat triarchy
is a fun one. Um, so that's one from Oh yeah,
A triarchy is what some social scientists have used to
describe the setup of our contemporary culture, which is run

(04:07):
less by the fathers and more by networks of the brothers.
So you know, uh, an example would be, you know,
Donald Trump and his bus bros. And that access Hollywood
recording would be a perfect example of frat triarchy, you know,
bros engaging in locker room banter in order to oppressed women.
We're really getting into this quickly. All I said, all

(04:28):
I said was grownut and here we are. Look. Yeah, yeah, anyway,
that is all to say that I love a portmanteau
even more than a pun. Then we have a battle.
Now she loves she's a queen of puns. Yes, I'm

(04:49):
a I'm a big language nerd. Listeners of this show. No,
so I'm very very excited to have this conversation. Um,
love the title and congrats on writing a book. Yes,
I know that's no easy thing. So oh that that's
that's very kind of you. Yeah, that was that was
the dream all along, you know. And um, the fact

(05:10):
that I got to marry my two loves, that being
linguistics the science of language and creative writing the art
of it. Um, that was just you know, that was
the cherry on top because my dream had always been
to write nonfiction. UM, and I I never could have
predicted that this sort of um useless, nerdy undergraduate degree

(05:30):
that I got would would help me in any sort
of fruitful way. UM. But I'm I'm thrilled that I
was able to write about this stuff that I love
so much and talk about in my everyday life and
bring it to a general audience of people who might
not even know what linguistics is. So that's been awesome,
Thank you. Yeah, and it was. It was wonderful to read.

(05:51):
Its super fun, very entertaining. Definitely listeners check it out. UM,
Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and
about out the inspiration behind this more than just getting
to marry the things that you Yeah, absolutely so. UM.
I grew up a total language nerd, hardcore. I was

(06:13):
obsessed with what I would later learn was a field
called socio linguistics UM, which is where language and sociology
and culture intersect. You know. I was always so fascinated
by the way that UM people spoke and how it
could inform our perceptions of them, and the way that
I spoke and the way that it informed other people's
perceptions of me. You know why was it that Um,

(06:37):
when I, as sort of a small woman, would would
curse or maybe even use um ten dollar words, UM,
people would be sort of surprised or scandalized, whereas when
my male colleagues would do so, they didn't get the
same reaction. And and then, you know, I was always

(06:57):
just obsessed with the thesaurus. I just loved big old words,
and I loved you know, the the swish and thwack
of different you know sounds. And I would later learn
that that stuff was called phonetics and phonology. UM. But
I I, yeah, I was obsessed with foreign languages and dialects.
And again how um, speaking of foreign language or or

(07:19):
having a certain accent or dialect feature could change the
way that a person saw you. So then when I
got to college and signed up for my first linguistics
one on one class, having no idea what the field was,
and learned there was this whole you know, small but
mighty um group of people studying formally um these subjects.

(07:39):
I I was so smitten. And the gender and language
classes that I took really inspired me and like lit
a fire, um more than anything else, because they they
highlighted these hidden gender biases and stereotypes um, that we
all grow up using in our everyday language. UM. And

(08:03):
they're they're they're all over the way that we speak,
not only in English, but in other languages, to like
languages with grammatical gender um, where gender is literally built
into the grammatical system. UM. We don't have that in English, UM,
other than you know, our third singular pronouns he and she,
which you know, there's a reason why are our gender
third singular pronouns have become such a topic of contention

(08:24):
in in our language because they are really the only
um unit of grammar that we have in English that
is gendered. UM. And so that's you know, the little
category of language that's become sort of politicized. But yeah,
I was. I was so fascinated um and sort of horrified,
but also inspired um to learn about all the ways

(08:47):
that gender and gender stereotypes are lurking beneath the surface
of our language. Everything from you know, how we use
gendered insults and how there's such a such a more
robe bust wealth of of insults for women or referencing
femininity in English than there are for men, to the
ways that we criticize and perceive women's voices UM, whether

(09:11):
it's you know, using a certain feature like up talk UM,
where you end a declarative sentence in the upward intonation
of a question, or vocal fry, which is a vocal
quality where your larynx are very relaxed that sounds like this.
I mean, I'm sure as a as podcast hosts here
no stranger to criticisms of your voices. UM. And it
was really cool to learn about how so many judgments

(09:34):
not only of women's speech, but of the speech of
so many marginalized communities UM, have so little to do
with the speech itself at the end of the day,
and very much to do with our preconceived notions of
those speakers. UM. And just you know, the the idea
of of male defaultness in our in our culture and
in our language, and how the way that men UM,

(09:57):
specifically you know, middle aged whites great cis gender men
the way that they use language is UM what we
default consider prestigious and normal in our culture. UM. Even
though UH linguists have found time and time again that
young women and communities of color are our languages linguistic innovators, UM,

(10:18):
because these are the groups that use language as a
form of power and a culture that doesn't give them
a lot of other ways to do that. Um. The
other example of male defaultness and speech that I that
I like to give because it's sort of like it
tends to shock people, as it shocked me when I
first thought about it, was just the way that we
describe sex, like as penetration. You know that that word

(10:41):
places you know, penises as the protagonists and the narrators
of sex. You know, the opposite might be something like
envelopment or enclosure, or if you want to approach it
from a sling angle, something like she thing. And I
was just like, that is wild. How how word choice
um with regard to gender and so many other identities.

(11:03):
It's something that we don't even think about because we
grow up using language so organically. UM. And so you know,
the the opportunity to bring UM some of these empirical
studies that are kind of inaccessible and only really read
by linguistic students UM to a general audience was really
exciting to me. UM. But yeah, I guess you asked

(11:24):
me to talk about myself and then I just tended
you talking about linguistics. But but but yeah, I am
I am I'm a writer and I always dreamt of
being a writer. Um, and I I'm writing my second
book now, which is about the language of cults, from
scientology to soul cycle um, and how the how these groups,

(11:48):
you know, the wide spectrum of groups that the word
cult can be applied to in contemporary culture, from those
as a notorious and destructive as jonestown to those as um,
you know, seemingly innocuous and and constructive as something like
peloton um. How these groups use language to do things
that occult or a cult following would need to do,

(12:09):
like create community and solidarity and still ideology creating us
versus them, mentality, et cetera. So I guess the the
general theme with me is that I'm I'm really interested
in in language and culture and um, so that's that's
what I'm doing. But I want to write about all
kinds of things over the course of my career. So yeah,

(12:31):
you should. Yes, Yes, So that was a great answer,
And there's so much to impact there and I think
we will. But I want to start with a sample,

(12:52):
super easy question. Can you give us a brief rundown
on the history of the English language and perhaps particularly
when it comes to this question of is it sexist,
because you talked about that a little bit in the book,
right right, Yeah, So you know, the English language has
such a storied past um as as many languages do.

(13:16):
But um. You know, and this is the other fun
thing about social linguistics is that you get to track
how things like wars and epidemics actually to to you know,
be talking book all about it. Um can inform how
languages evolve. So let me think of how I wanna
tell this story in a succinct manner. So basically we
can start back in the fifth century a D. This

(13:39):
was long ago, folks Um. The fifth century a D.
That's when this trio of Germanic tribes from Scandinavia showed
up in the British aisles unannounced. Um. And you know,
we don't know if it was peaceful or violent, but
you know, probably violent. And um. Those tribes spoke this
language called English. Um. I actually don't quite remember how

(14:02):
to pronounce the name of the language that they spoke,
but it sounded like Lord of the Rings language. Um.
And so this lingo, along with some of the North
Germanic languages spoken by Vikings, push Britain's Celtic languages to
the outskirts of the country UM. And so the product
of all of these languages intermingling UM is what we

(14:22):
call Old English UM. And it's totally incomprehensible today, but
you know, you might have come across some Old English
UM if you took nerdy language courses in college like
I did. UM. Anyway, Old English was spoken until precisely
the year ten sixty six a d. And that's when
the Duke of Normandy UM, who was from France, this

(14:44):
terrifying little man came in UM. It came into England
and murdered a bunch of people and brought with him
an early form of French UM. And so that happened,
and it was all very violent. But then what was
even more violent, speaking of epidemics, was that the Black
Death swooped in and killed off about a third of
the population UM. And so by the fourteenth century, UM

(15:05):
English had become the dominant language of Britain, again not
not Old French. But at this point English had been
influenced so heavily by Old French UM that it gave
us a new form, which was Middle English. And then
a few centuries go by and a bunch of stuff happens,
like the Great vowel Shift. UM. And by the fifteen hundreds,
the traveled enabled British have started mingling with you know,

(15:28):
a ton of different people around the world, and so
globalization was starting to happen a little bit. The European
Renaissance was starting to happen a little bit, and UM
the printing press was invented, which was really important for
UM language standardization. So all of this starts to happen.
The first Webster's dictionary was printed. Actually I don't know

(15:49):
if it was Websters. The first dictionary was printed. It
had about hundred words. The sixteen hundreds come along. Colonization
of North America takes place, and that North American English
UM starts to evolve, and that's influenced by French and
Spanish and the West African slave trade, UM, and the
Industrial Revolution happens, and then the Internet happens, and UM

(16:12):
a bunch of happens, and then we have contemporary American English.
It was a great timeline I like it. Sorry that
was kind of long winded, but the history of English
is so dramatic I don't know how to sacctly describe it. Yes, yes,

(16:33):
that was a very big question, and I appreciate you.
I think you did a really great job getting that together. Yeah. So,
going off of that, you kind of discuss, um, how
the English language isn't necessarily sexist so much as like

(16:56):
the people in power have used it at serlutely. Yeah.
So there's nothing inherent about the thousand consonants of English
that would make it inherently sexist. Um. But you know,
as the story of the history of English shows culture
and human beings and how we interact with each other

(17:16):
and how we colonize and how we standardize really has
a huge effect on on the way that language moves.
And so you know, many of the characters in the
story of the history of English our men, you know,
the army dudes, and the aristocracy, and the merchants and
labors and the printers um, who you know invented the

(17:37):
printing press, um, and um started printing standardized English grammar guides, UM,
the dictionary makers, the industry and technology folks. You know,
because we live in a society where historically it hasn't
been as easy for women and other marginalized folks to
to do cool things from a high position of power. Um.

(17:57):
It's it's been hard for them to you define the
world from the top down. Um. But you know, as
it turns out, women do have a huge, huge, enormous
impact on how language evolves from the bottom up, which
is its own, um sort of even more important kind
of power. Um. And that's what the rest of words
let us about, really, right, yeah, um so sort of

(18:24):
really I know you talk about and we've talked about
this in an episode we did in the past, of
this sort of devolving of words like if you look
at um like master and mistress for example. UM, so
can you talk about that a little bit? Yeah, absolutely so. Um.
In English, we have these two forms of semantic change

(18:48):
called pejuration and amelioration. And pejoration describes a process of
how words over time, where a word that starts out
with a neutral or positive meaning eventually devolves too means
thing negative, and amelioration is the opposite process. So, sadly,
nearly every word the English language offers to describe a

(19:10):
woman has at some point during its lifespan been colored
some shade of obscene. Um. And there was this linguist
name Muriel Schultz Um who wrote this nine paper called
the semantic derogation of woman, and in it she describes
this process and looks at so many of the words UM,
for which this process is true. UM. And you know,

(19:32):
it's no coincidence that she wrote this paper in nineteen
because you know, the nineteen seventies, with the second wave
feminist movement, that's when we really saw the dawn of
the study of feminist socio linguistics. So it is relatively
new UM, and you know, expanding all the time and
becoming more intersectional all the time. And when when young
readers of the book, who who hold a complex intersection

(19:57):
of identities come to me and they tell me, like,
I want to write a about linguistics now, it's just
like makes me so happy because we're really, um, we're
missing a lot of voices in the world of feminist
social linguistics. And there are a ton of people doing
really important work UM in the field, but not enough
of them. So that's another conversation. But yeah, I mean,
we can compare certain minimal pairs of words, like you

(20:20):
talked about master and mistress. You know, these terms come
to English by way of old French, and and initially
both of them indicated a person in a position of authority,
like a male and female heads of household. Um. But
you know, mistress obviously, as we know, it devolved over
time to mean, you know, a sexually promiscuous woman with

(20:41):
whom a married man um for indicates. And meanwhile, master
um continues to describe a man who's in charge of
something like a household or an animal, or a person
who's conquered a difficult skill, like like a chef or
a karate master. Another example is buddy and sissy UM,

(21:01):
which you know, used to mean they were just synonyms
for brother and sister, but of course buddy ameliorated to
mean you know, a comrade or a pal. You know,
it has this friendly, cozy connotation, while cissy devolved to
come to mean you know, sort of a weak, overly
effeminate man who God forbid reminds you of a woman. Um.
Sir and madam is another minimal pair. But yeah, you

(21:24):
you come across a lot of those. But it's really
interesting because you know, so many of the words that
we think of as incredibly degrading towards women, like oh God,
and here's where I'm going to have to skirt around
some of these curse words. So slat actually started out
as a fairly neutral term. Um. You know, hundreds of
years ago it was used to describe a sort of

(21:46):
messy or untidy woman, and um, it was sometimes used
to describe men as well. Um. Chocer at a point
describes a male character as sluttish, which I find entertaining
um to describe, you know, this character slovenly nous. Um.
But what we find with slut, and what we find
with so many terms for women, is that over time

(22:06):
they they come to mean a sexual slur. That's where
they end up, and that really reflects the position of
of women in our culture. Um. You know, when we
go to insult a woman, we can't help but reduce
her to a sexual object. Um, whether that's by way
of calling her some type of animal or some type
of edible treat um, or just plain old, you know,

(22:30):
calling her a prostitute, which in itself is a problematic word. Um.
As you know, sex work is completely legitimate. Um. But yeah,
so I mean that that was a fascinating thing to discover.
And then what was also cool was to to learn
and share the information about reclamation um, because a reclamation

(22:51):
is sometimes you know, a controversial subject too, because you know,
not everybody is going to agree on which words deserve
to be abolished rather than claimed. And you know, something
that we see in culture is that, um, you know,
sometimes gendered insults will go out of style as soon
as the underlying belief in them does. So it's one

(23:13):
of the reasons why you never hear someone, you know,
call a woman an old maid or a spinster in earnest,
you know, really trying to damage them or disparage them anymore,
because it's no longer completely reprehensible to be a woman
who's over you know, thirty five and unmarried. Um. And
so you know, there were people there were, you know,

(23:33):
feminists who I respect who thought it was you know,
who would not have named their book word slut because
they think that slut is one of those words that
deserves to just go away entirely because it's problematic to
have a special word for women's promiscuity at all. Um.
And I agree with them there, But you know, I
might be slightly more of an optimist um when I

(23:56):
think about reclamation, because I like to think, you know,
if if we can only choose to use gendered insults
in positive contexts, so words slut or talking about, you know, sluttiness,
even if it has to do with sex in in
a positive way, like I had such a slutty night
last night, it was amazing. But if we can only

(24:18):
use bitch in context of like bad bitch, badass, bitch,
me and my bitches. Um. And by the way, we
have women in hip hop in nineties hip hop largely
to thank for the reclamation of the word bitch. Um,
you know, we can almost they almost singlehandedly um or
responsible for reclaiming that word. Um. If we can only

(24:38):
use these terms in positive context, then as the next
generation comes up hearing those contexts, then they will no
longer think of a slut or a bitch in a
negative light. Um. And you know, if we can do that,
and then when we go to insult people, because lord
knows I love to insult people, if when we insult

(24:59):
people we can target their behavior rather than their gender,
then we can be more inclusive, more specific, more incisive.
We can be meaner in fact when we when we
criticize their behavior, because we're actually addressing the thing about
them that we don't like, rather than just saying like, oh,

(25:19):
you're a bitch, you're a slut, you're a c U
n t um And the history of that word is
also fascinating and it and again did not start out
as a negative thing. Um. But yeah, that's why you know,
the naming the book word slut was sort of this, um,
the statement of of reclamation and my belief and in

(25:39):
using words only in in positive context that have so
long been used against us, because you know, a more
equal world is also one where less offense is taken
to language because there's, um, there's nothing disempowering about it,
and language can really um work to empower or disempower
people in a in a truly material way. So that's

(26:02):
my long winded answer to your question. Perfect. Um. Yeah,
it's it's funny because I've I've shared this story before
on the show. But yes, as podcasters, we do get
a lot of criticism on our voices and what we say.
And one of my favorites is back before I was
even a voice, I was just a producer. Um. I
got a comment that said, I know the producer of

(26:24):
this show and she's a huge slut, and I think
about that all the time. I'd like to I actually
know me, who are you out of nowhere like he
put out of his way to insult the producer. Um.
But has it anybody ever called angels slot there's that. Well.
I do think it's interesting that um and it and

(26:47):
it highlights some of that that male defaultness again when
we have words like man slut um, which highlights the
notion that, you know, someone who's contemptuously promiscuous must be female. Um.
If we have to attack that masculine modifier onto it
um in order for that to apply to men um.
And you know, we see the same thing or similar

(27:09):
thing with with words like man, bag, man, bun, guideliner,
you know, which which served to imply that objects often
thought to be frivolous, like makeup and purses, are inherently feminine.
And in a in a former career, I was a
beauty editor, so I can talk about the history of
makeup and and men and how it is not actually

(27:29):
inherently feminine. But that's another podcast. Um yeah, and how
you know, and my other sort of pet peeves, and
we all have language pet peeves. But the fun thing
about being a linguists and some something that I try
to communicate is that we're not interested in the way
that people should talk. We're interested in the way that
people do talk and so um, you know, correcting grammar.

(27:50):
That's something that people sometimes ask me when they hear that.
You know, I've studied linguistics that are like, oh, are
you always correcting people's grammar in your head? And I'm like, no,
just the opposite, you know. I'm not a pedant, I'm
not a grammarian. I'm I'm interested in the precise opposite,
you know. I want to know how people really do
talk in their most natural state and what that says
about their background and their experiences. And so I try

(28:15):
to remain as a non judgmental and as curious as
possible about language. And I think that in general that's
a that's a really good way to approach it. Um.
But yeah, I do that said, I do have my
own little pet peeves, and some of them are are when,
you know, when people say things like you know, girl
boss and she e o and mom preneur. You know,

(28:39):
they sort of like cutesify um terms that are are
not inherently gendered UM, which highlight and perpetuate the notion
that the words boss and entrepreneur and CEO are sort
of tacitly coded male. Um, even when people call me
a girl boss as a compliment, like I just cringe

(29:00):
because I'm like, what, First of all, I'm not the
boss of anyone. I literally have no employees. But also
if you're gonna call me that, please don't call me
a girl boss because let's not Let's not perpetuate and
reflect these stereotypes, shall we, Right, And that's not a
double whammy in itself, because obviously a girl is a

(29:20):
juvenile to begin with, dominutive. Yeah, not only does it
have to be hey, oh you're something special because you're
not male, so we have to say you're a female
of swords, but not only that, you're a child, so
you're a girl. So stop. I know. Can you imagine
calling some six year old man a boy boss. It
would be so silly. I just wouldn't make sense going

(29:42):
to now, Yeah, I know, give it a try. We
have some more for you listeners, but first we have
a quick break for word from our sponsor and we're back.

(30:05):
Thank you sponsored. Because, as we've discussed, the media, love
love love love loves to critique female women voices. Um,
how to stop vocal fry, how not to up talk,
stop saying sorry, stop using emoji, stop using exclamation points,
and emails, and largely it seems like what it's boiling

(30:29):
down to is telling women and other marginalized communities to
to fit into this conform to this male dominated workspace.
So what are some ways that you have found or
that you think that we can find our own voices
and own our own voices in those spaces. Yeah, yeah,

(30:51):
you're absolutely right, Um, these spaces. I mean, culture in
general wants women and and folks of other marginalized identities
who don't speak quote unquote standard English, which is of
course the standardized English um that was put in place
by you know, stuffy old white men. They want they

(31:13):
want everyone else to accommodate to that standard because we
all grew up thinking that that is proper English. Um,
it's prescriptive grammar. Um, that's the grammar that your English
teacher teaches you. Um. But really there is nothing inherently
better about it. And in fact, attempting to keep language
from moving forward or changing is a feudal effort because

(31:35):
it is going to change, and young women are you know,
going to be the ones to to change it. Um.
And that's what linguists have found time and time again
that young people tend to, you know, be quicker on
the uptake of linguistic change than older generations. And young
women tend to be about half a generation ahead of
young men. And so you know, really when it comes

(31:56):
to linguistic innovation, we should be celebrating that. And and
that doesn't only have to do with you know, innovations
that young women make, but you know, especially with with
everything that's that's going on in our country right now,
I can't not address how so often African American English
is criticized as being improper English or poorer grammar without acknowledging.

(32:21):
And this is something that you learn in linguistics, and
I'm so grateful for that that it is such a
complex and sophisticated, systematic dialect um that is a product
of Black Americans oppression but also their innovation um. And
Black Americans grow up learning from an extremely young age
to code switch, so that you know, in in certain

(32:43):
communities they're speaking one dialect and then maybe in an
office spaces or or white spaces, they're they're learning to
speak another dialect. And that's a form of bilingualism that
should be celebrated rather than condemned. But you know, I
remember growing up in Baltimore, or you know, my English
teachers in middle school in high school criticizing black students

(33:06):
voices when they weren't in class, when they were in
the hallway um and you know, telling them not to
use this verb tense or or you know that pronunciation
and um that really perpetuates stereotypes and in an extremely negative,
profound way, that that does keep people um from power,

(33:26):
and that does promote racism. But yeah, I mean, I
think you know, when you're talking about owning your voice
in some of these spaces, it is challenging because sometimes
a person's most authentic voice will you know, be a
hindrance to them, even though there's nothing inherently wrong with
their speech. In fact, their speech is probably more sophisticated

(33:47):
and more inventive and more communicative than the speech of
you know, their bosses. And actually, linguists have an acronym
for the least innovative population of English speakers there, non mobile,
older rural males, and linguists call them norms, which I
just think is fantastic. Um. So you know, when we're

(34:11):
when we're at work or or certainly when you're you know,
running for political office, or when you're you know, vying
for any sort of position of power, the expectation is
for you to accommodate to the speech of norms. And
you know, in in some workplaces, it's going to be
more acceptable to push back against that. You know, say, oh, hey,

(34:32):
I read in word slut that UH had vocal fry
and up talk and using like every other word. Um.
These are actually signs of linguistic savvy. And I can
point you to a number of empirical studies that disprove
these problematic standards that you've always held. UM. But obviously,
and not every workplace that is that going to be appropriate.
So sometimes what I like to tell people is that

(34:54):
when you get criticisms from a boss or something like that,
that you need to stop using vocal fry or so
many filler were words or exclamation points in your emails
or you know, whatever it is. UM. You might have
to briefly, you know, temporarily accommodate in order you know,
not to get fired, in order to keep your job. UM.
But then you can go back to your desk or

(35:15):
you can go home, not wasting any time second guessing yourself.
It's really you know, it's almost a form of gas
lighting when someone tells you that there's something wrong with
your speech, even though there's actually something wrong with their standards. Um.
But you can go back to your desk, or go home,
or log off Skype or Zoom or whatever service you're using,

(35:36):
and you can at least not waste any time worrying
that there is something inherently wrong about you, that your
voice is you know, naturally inauthoritative, and that you need
to change. You know, we all know what we need
to do in those spaces. Temporarily, we need to, you know,
just talk like our bosses for the time being. But
at least you will have the confident knowledge that your

(35:59):
speech is there for a logical, powerful, provable reason. And
so in you know, a couple of years, a few years,
when you become the boss, you can resist perpetuating those
standards when you now have young women and other folks
coming up under you. Um, because you know, so many
of the criticisms that I myself have received in the

(36:19):
workplace of saying like too much or you know, being
to quote unquote opinionated or allowed or um any of
these other criticisms. Yes, so so much of them have
come from female bosses, and often their criticism is even
harsher because they figured, you know, I had to do this,
I had to fight tooth and nail to climb the
corporate ladder. And these are always white women, by the way, um,

(36:42):
you know, the Karen's of the world. They they you know,
they think I had I had to accommodate, I had
to fight my way up the corporate ladder. So this
is just par for the course, and you need to
do it too, and I'm going to hold you to
an even stricter standard. Um. Meanwhile, like these these speech
quality is like like and vocal fry and and so

(37:03):
much of the slang that comes from African American and
English that you know, eventually within a few years ends
up taking a seat at the table of everyday English. Um.
These are qualities that everybody ends up using, um in
a in a number of years. It's just that there
are these growing pains because when norms here this language,
they you know, subconsciously feel the grounds of linguistic change

(37:26):
quaking beneath them, you know. And this is a sign
that the that a new generation is rising up and
coming into power and they don't like that, especially when
those people are people of color or women or both.
So yeah, my my advice is really just to not
let it get you down, not let these criticisms get
you down, not let them distract you. Remain open minded

(37:48):
about your speech and non judgmental about your speech, but
also non judgmental of the speech of others who who
aren't like you. And then when you're the boss, make
it an include of empowering space for folks who aren't norms.
And I did love reading in your book when you
were talking specifically about when the fact that the black

(38:09):
community would coin these terms or um language like woke
had been really taken over. It's now blown obviously all
kinds of ways um, and it's kind of ignored whence
it becomes popular and becomes a term that is acknowledged
that it was ever started. It began with the black
community and trying to beg those people that are not
black to understand what is happening in whatever political or

(38:34):
even just humanitarian a lot types of ways that their
rights were being taken away in any type of form.
And I did like that you did talk about that
A little bit can you talk a little more, and
I know it wasn't too big of an excerpt, but
you were talking about how it has originated there and
how it kind of just how big of an influence
it does have in everyday life. Oh absolutely, I mean,

(38:55):
we have we have African American folks and speakers of
African American English to thank for all of our treasured
slang terms in English. You know, terms as new as
woke and squad and boy, and as old as the
use of bad to mean good and the phrase. I mean.
I talked to this amazing linguist um at the University

(39:16):
of Texas at Austin named Sonia Lainhardt, who studies African
American English and women um, and she told me that
the first time she ever heard a white male news
anchor on the television use the phrase, she nearly spit
out her drink because that derived from African American English.
And you know, not only that, but so many of

(39:39):
today's most beloved slang terms that we see used on
social media all the time, like throwing shade and read
and work and yass um and iconic. These are terms
that are so often attributed to you know, broad city
or the Internet but they derive from ballroom culture, which

(40:00):
was a community of extremely marginalized black and Latin X
you know, trans and gay drag performers, um, whose heyday
was in nineteen eighties ballroom New York. And we so
often fail to recognize and you know, it's not, you know,
explicitly everyone's fault. It's just it's our culture. You know,
we don't want to give credit where credit is due,

(40:22):
and we don't want to acknowledge, um, the originators of
some of this language. And by the way, like sort
of like what you were saying, These folks don't create
slang because they think it will be trendy and catchy
and they want to create a hashtag and they want
to become Instagram famous. They create this language because it's
a matter of solidarity and survival. You know, when when
ballroom performers were using some of that language in the eighties,

(40:46):
it was so they could identify who was safe to trust,
who was a part of their their group, um, so
that they could avoid persecution, so that they could avoid violence. UM.
And that is so much of why know, many queer
communities and communities of color invent with language, UM, because
they're you know, they're at the risk of really you know,

(41:09):
real life violence. UM. And that's such an important thing
to recognize. And so it's like it's like everything else,
you know, we're seeing so much communication right now about
how you know, we wish that America loved black people
as much as they as we love black culture. And
that has to do with music and um and fashion

(41:31):
and very much has to do with language. And so
you know, the least we can do, if we're going
to use some of the products of of these communities
is to support them at every turn. And I talked
a lot with Sonia Laine hard about this, and she
very generously told me, you know, we don't have to
stop using words like like woke and boy and seven um.

(41:54):
And these are just a few of the countless examples.
But what we have to do is show up for
these communities or else we're hypocrites. Um. And because at
the end of the day, you know, our language and
our politics are connected, our language and our ethics are connected, um.
And we need to remember that. So, yeah, thank you

(42:16):
for bringing that up. I love that. Yeah. I loved
in your book how you described women's conversations like jazz
and then particularly black women's conversation sort of like speech building,
a community building and consensus, because I've never thought of
it in that way, but that was a really cool
way to think of it because a lot of the

(42:37):
things that we do demonize, the likes, which I also
like how you broke down there are four different types
of them, and they oh there are six, there are
six six. Oh my gosh, that's so cool. Those things
that we demonize are sort of a way of yes,
I hear you. I'm like with you as we're going
through this conversational journey and you're building something absolutely yeah. Yeah,

(43:00):
so right, so you're talking about how there's this linguist
who has dedicated a lot of her career to understanding
the many forms of the word like in English, and
they're actually six of them, and they all serve a
very distinct purpose, and um, we don't you know, we
don't even notice or acknowledge that because we just blame
you know, teenage girls for all these likes and for

(43:20):
ruining the English language, even though um, most people of
all ages and all genders use all six um, because
they all are extremely useful. But yeah, you were talking
about them. You know this the style of talk that
this one linguist in particular, Jennifer Coates noticed um in
women's conversations, um is is likened to a jam session,

(43:44):
like a jazz jam session. UM, because in conversations among women,
you'll often hear overlapping talk, you know, speakers repeating one
another or rephrasing one another's words. Um. And everyone is
sort of working together to construct meaning. UM. So you know,
the sort of like one speaker at a time rule
doesn't apply even though you see that one speaker at

(44:06):
a time structure and a lot of conversations among men
because you know, and these are these are large generalizations obviously,
but um, it's interesting to think about how a lot
of the time, you know, women are conditioned also, these
are these are not you know, ways of talking that
we are born understanding. We're we're conditioned to understand them
and to use them. But um, you know, women often,

(44:28):
you know, perceive the conversational floor on a horizontal level
as a way to you know, create meaning and build solidarity,
whereas men oftentimes see it um as a in a
vertical way, um, in order to express individual achievement. UM.
And so that's why you see this this jam session

(44:49):
E style. In in the talk of women and um
and Yeah, Sonia Elainhardt Um had talked about how minimal
responses are something you so often see in the speech
of of black women's communities, and how they especially are
are incredibly savvy at using things like minimal responses and

(45:09):
those are are words like mm hmm and you're right,
and yes, um to build on one another's points and
to uh support one another and um sort of emotionally
support each other. Um. And these are things that are
criticized even though they're not inherently bad. Actually, as recently
as yesterday, somebody tagged me in an Instagram post, a
new Instagram post where someone was, you know, perpetuating this

(45:34):
information that we see all the time, where they were saying, like, ladies,
we need to stop using filler words like just you
know actually and I feel like because these are just
words that we have all learned to use to soften
the confidence of our convictions. And just as we have
been taught to express insecurity about our appearance, we've been

(45:56):
taught to use these hedges or filler words. They don't
even know the word um. We've been taught to use
these filler words to express insecurity of what we're saying,
and we need to stop using them because that is
just telling men that we really are insecure. But that's
just a first impression and it's based on nothing, it's

(46:17):
based on no studies. The linguists who have empirically looked
into hedges UM that's a synonym for filler words. These
are also known as discourse markers, have found that they
are so rarely used to communicate insecurity UM, and that
they are much more often used to to do some

(46:37):
of those same things like build solidarity and check for
the face needs of everyone in a conversation UM. And
linguists have found that often speech lacking in legs you
knows and actually comes across as two careful and robotic
and unfriendly and these these you know legs and you knows.

(46:58):
And actually these hedges are only used more by women
than men because women more often than not dive into
sensitive territory during their discussions, so men aren't having as
sensitive of conversations and so these speech characteristics aren't as
useful to them. UM. But when women are talking about

(47:18):
everything from families to relationships to therapy to you know, politics, UM,
to social justice. You know, you need some of these
hedges in order to account for the face needs of
everyone in a discussion and to sort of soften really sensitive,

(47:38):
oftentimes harsh and hard to hear sentiments. So yeah, I'm
so right when I start to think like, oh, everybody
already knows this word slept stuff, I like get tagged
in a post like that, and I'm like, oh, no,
they do not. We have a little bit more for
you listeners, but first we have one more quick break

(47:59):
for work from Responsive and her back thanky sponsor. Oh
my gosh, I have so many things I want to
ask you, but we would be remiss if we didn't

(48:19):
talk about cursing yum, because this is actually something I've
been thinking about a lot. I had a friend who, uh,
she's actually my other podcast host over on Savor Lauren.
She curses a lot, and she pointed out to me,
like a month ago, if you think about it, you know,

(48:42):
we say motherfucker, what if we said father fucker, say
son of a bit? Like it's always an assault towards women,
that's in the end. Um. And so you mentioned the
history of the sea word and a bitch and slut
and me claiming these things. Is there like a particular
uh one that you would like to dive into the

(49:03):
history of and just women in cursing in general, because
we do have a real anxiety about that, as you
sort of alluded to. Yeah, yeah, so there was this study.
So basically, I guess to give a little bit of
context because we are talking about so many topics the
this book words lit. I'm sure some readers who are
are listeners who are unfamiliar, like what is this book

(49:25):
that talks about so many things? Basically, like every chapter
tackles a different subject having to do with language and gender,
from insults to grammatical gender, to the conversations among women
when men aren't around, and myths about gossip and things
like that too, cursing to genitalia, naming slang throughout history.
It like runs the gamut. It's it's it's a big
old beast. Um, it's a one on one, it's it's

(49:48):
a big one on one introduction. Absolutely. Yeah, it's funny
that you say that, because I in the early days
of like putting together, um, the outline for this book,
I kind of based it on my sex, gender and
Language college syllabus because I figured like, if I fell
in love with this material in this class, then that
then probably work on other people too. Obviously, it has

(50:10):
gotten pretty far from my college syllabus. Um. There there
is no chapter in my sex, Gender and Language class
called get an ode to Cursing while Female, which is
the chapter that you're referencing. Um, But I'm a potty
mouth too, and so I had to include it. But yeah,
I was really interested in talking about cursing because I
do curse so very much, and I'm also like so

(50:35):
resentful of the stereotypes that people who curse just can't
think of anything better to say. And I was like,
I really and also, you know, I I was so
mystified by why I, as a female, was perceived as
being you know, even more crass or almost more intriguing
in a way for cursing, um than men. And so

(50:58):
I found this study that was looking into young men's
and women's self reported reasons for cursing, and it was
it was pretty interesting because, um, I related to a
lot of the answers that the women in this study gave. Um.
You know a lot of them talked about how there
are reasons for cursing. Well, first of all, I want

(51:18):
to mention that linguist who studied cursing have found that
cursing is not inherently aggressive or violent, even though it
is perceived that way, which is also why it's perceived
as an inherently more masculine thing. But in very few
instances of everyday cursing are people using it to convey
aggression or violence. You know, there are in fact forms

(51:40):
of polite cursing, as in the sentence oh my god,
this banana breag you just baked is the ship? Or
I think love your jacket. You know, these are actively
polite forms of cursing. They might be crassed, they might
be bleeped on I Heart radio, but you know, they
are not inherently violent. Um So, anyway, that some of

(52:03):
these self reported reasons for cursing by women interested me
because they were having to do with um personality and
emphasis and crafting a certain identity. You know, these were
some of the reasons why women cursed, where men self
reported that they cursed just because it was expected. And
I thought that was interesting because people have this sort

(52:24):
of um awareness that there are these gender disparities in
our expectations of how men and women should use language
with regard to cursing. And I was thinking in my head,
you know, like I do that too. I curse for emphasis,
for personality, for kutzpuff, for shock value. Um never because

(52:44):
it's expected. Sometimes I'll actively do it just to like
shake things up in a business meeting, you know what
I mean, Just like, let's see what if I throw
up if I throw an F word out here on
one of these stuffy people in suits, gonna do um
and that, And that's sort of an act of, you know,
rebellion against expectations and an act of crafting a certain identity.

(53:06):
And I think that's what a lot of women do
with cursing. UM. But yeah, I think a lot of
curse words to um, like to your point, are reflecting
a masculine point of view, and we talk about some
of them are are profoundly homophobic as well. UM. And
so you know, I I love cursing, and I love

(53:26):
the phono symbolism of cursing, the sort of you know,
hard plosive consonants, the cuz and the puzz and the
puzz and the uzz. I just like love the power
and those sounds. Um. Those are also some of the
first sounds that babies utter in their babbling phase, so
they're sort of some of our favorite sounds from birth.

(53:49):
And so um. You know, something that that I sometimes
like to experiment with and invite other people to experiment with,
is um like creating our own curse words, like in
the in the book, at a point I suggest, and
do I buy any means envision our culture doing away
with our current vocabulary of curse words and replacing them

(54:11):
with you know, more feminist ones. No, but it is
fun to think about it. It is fun to kind
of reframe our perception of language um as you know,
as one of like, oh, we can get creative with
this stuff. So um. One of the ones that I
that I suggest is holy clit, which I think is
kind of fun. Um. You know. Obviously. The other thing

(54:32):
too that's really interesting is that our curse words really reflect, um,
the standards and fears of our culture. So in um
Canadian French, for example, so many of their curse words
have to do with religion and Catholicism, like tabianic like
which means tabernacle or I don't even know how to
say that I'm Jewish, so um. But but um in

(54:54):
in English, so many of our curse words have to
do with sex, right, and that really you know, it's
it's the puritanism of it all and the and the
scandal of sex um is what that really reflects. But
we also have a whole category of cursing that's you know, schatology.
Um like asked, which I know because you told me
will be bleeped. I think that's so funny. Why is

(55:16):
asked not believed but asked? I guess because asked is
sort of subtly implying just the cheeks, and then asked
was a little more internal. You could probably get away with,
you know, it's a donkey thing or whatever. My favorite,
like two of my favorites would be asked hat because
I don't think it's used us just fun that's a

(55:37):
funny vision. That's like it was a literal thing. I
was like, ah, that's you have an asked for a
hat or you know, something like dick. Like that's one
of my other favorite was because it's a funny is
not many I thought, it's not as known as what
do you mean dick? And I was like, what, you know,
he's a dick or there a dick, you know, stuff
like that, and it's kind of like people kind of confused,

(56:00):
is if I'm not saying, you know, any other cards words.
But also because of the sounds, it's a really hard
Yeah yeah, exactly exactly, Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's true like
so so many of our and Dick is like sort
of the one outlier that paints, um, you know, fallacism
and is that even a word, fallacism in a negative light? Um,

(56:21):
whereas we have so many that portray you know, Volva's
in in a negative light. Um. But yeah, I mean
not to men like douchebag, like all these terms. Oh
my god. This is a story that I don't think
I've ever told, like in an event or a podcast
or anything before. But I remember, like it's so funny
when you're experimenting with cursing for the first time when

(56:41):
you're a kid, because you're like so intrigued by this
language that you know is taboo. You just like have
a feeling is taboo. But but you don't know what
these individual words mean, and the only way to learn
what they mean is to like use them. But sometimes
you use them in a context that's like so just
like such a misstep. Like I remember the first time

(57:03):
I ever used the word douche. I called my mom
a douche. I was like seven. I don't know where
I heard it. I must have heard it at school, uh,
And I called my mom a douche and she was
just like what, Like where did you hear that? My
mom was like a very composed scientist. By the way,
like my mom, I didn't really curse in front of

(57:26):
my parents in the way that I genuinely do in
my everyday life until I was like in my twenties
because I just didn't think they could handle it because
they're not really that vulgar. They're these very like mild
mannered scientists. But um, yeah, I like called my mom
a douche and she was like, Amanda, do you know
what that is? And then of course she very clinically
described this like yeast infection causing even like product that

(57:51):
was invented because our culture thinks that vaginas are dirty, um,
when really there's some cleaning books. Um. But anyways, um, yeah,
that's just a funny story about how like we just
the way that we come to use curse words or
come to learn curse words is such an awkward process,
So like why not make that awkward process for the

(58:13):
next generation, just a little more feminist, you know, have
your seven year old come to you and be like,
holy clip, pepper pig is on again. Whatever that is.
As soon as I thought, I don't think I have
ever thought I would hear, so thank you for that.
I enjoyed that one. So right now as we record this,

(58:37):
probably by the time it comes out it's no longer true.
But right now it's Pride month, um, and we are
seeing this massive social push for change and protesting, and
and your book you you write um about how in
the right hands, uh, language can change the world, and

(58:58):
that you say it may sound melodramatic, but it isn't. Um. Yeah,
so can you. I guess to close this out because
this we have talked. We've talked a little bit about
those things, about how the black community and the gay
community has given us so much and they've been like
these innovators in language. And you have a chapter on
the gay voice, and while lesbians don't really have the

(59:20):
gay voice, and I feel like they are, there's so
many things we do take for granted. And just to
tag on because this is a complete sub different subject,
but I know you talk a lot about gender specifically,
and obviously that's a really big topic right now with
some of the um things with our novelists who people

(59:41):
want to love. I'm not going to call her she
who shall not be named, but just that conversation, I
know you had a whole chapter on that, and I
found it really fascinating because you kind of just instead
of like being antagonistic, you took down the actual history
of it. So if you can align both of those things. Yeah,
I know that's different. No, No, that no, I think

(01:00:03):
like I think the through line really is that, you know,
there's there was some French philosopher who said that language
is the medium for humans, just as water as to fish,
Like we create the world with language. We don't just
reflect it, we don't just describe it. We actively create

(01:00:26):
the world through the repetition of language, through everything we say.
And that's a a theory called linguistic performativity, and it
was in part pioneered by the feminist icon Judith Butler,
who talked about gender performativity. And that's a whole that
that's kind of that's like gender studies class now. But um,

(01:00:46):
but it is it is so true that we cultivate
our beliefs through language. There is no other way to
do it. We don't have beliefs without language what we do.
And that's another theory called linguistic determinism versus linguistic relativism. Um.
But yeah, but um. And this actually relates to you know,

(01:01:08):
some of what I'm I'm writing about in the cult
book UM as well is that, you know, ideology could
not be instilled or proliferated without language. And so the
way that we describe things, whether it's gender or sexuality
or race, it not only you know, reflects what we believe,

(01:01:31):
but it creates a world. It creates a system of beliefs,
the culture of beliefs. And so becoming aware of the
histories of some of these words and the history of
how language develops, UM can really better. It can help
us make better informed decisions about how we want to

(01:01:52):
use language. It can help us create the world that
we want to live in, or continue to perpetuate a
world that that isn't equal and that is problematic, and
that is oppressive. And this isn't stuff that we learn
in elementary or middle or high school. We don't learn
about these things. We just come to use language. So naturally,

(01:02:14):
and so my whole mission with with socio linguistics, and
it's one that I so hope continue is far past
what I'm able to write, is that I don't want
to police anyone's language or force anyone to say anything.
I don't want my language to be policed. I don't
want people to tell me that I can't name my

(01:02:35):
book words let I don't want people to tell me
that singular they is ungrammatical. I don't want people to
tell me any of that stuff. But really, what this
information and why I'm so grateful to these linguists, why
this stuff is important, is because it's allowing us to
become more educated, so then we can make our own

(01:02:56):
decisions about how we want to use language to create
the role that we want to see. UM. And you know,
there's this amazing linguist that I talked to a ton
for this book named law Zaman, who UM studies language
and gender, particularly is it relates to transgender communities. He's
at the University of California, Santa Barbara, and he and I,

(01:03:16):
he and I were really share a lot of of
points because you can get really pessimistic about a lot
of things. UM, particularly when you see how like whenever
there's a push for inclusive language, a lot of the
times the opposition is like more powerful than the initial
than the initial movement, and you have all this backlash

(01:03:38):
and all this hate speech because people don't want to
see language change, because people don't want to see culture change. Um.
But he's incredibly optimistic, and like the last line in
in my book, UM says, like he says, I have
to be optimistic to make it through. You have to
believe it's possible. You know you have and this and

(01:03:59):
this has to do with activism, It has to do
with language, It has to do with everything. Like you
have to believe that if you put forth the effort
to educate yourself and make sure that your actions and
your language is reflecting that education, you have to believe
that that will create a better world. And and language
is a is an incredibly peaceable way to do that.

(01:04:20):
And you don't even have to leave your house. Um.
So you know, language change and ideological societal cultural change
go hand in hand. You cannot force someone to use
language a certain way and expect their ideology to follow.
So you have to get people on board with the
ideology first. But if you are already on board with equality,

(01:04:42):
with gender, equality, with you know, with certain sexual and
gender identities that maybe weren't approved of fifty years ago,
with racial quality, then goodness knows, our our speech and
our language should reflect that. And you know, what I'm
trying to do is give people the tools to make
that happen. Just some of the tools. UM. So that

(01:05:04):
those are kind of generalized statements, but they can apply
to to so many communities. I think, yes, um, and
thank you so much for for joining us and having
this conversation, for writing the book. Um, there's so many
things listeners, if you want to know, like about the
history of gender, which is much shorter than I thought
it was history, The word gender, yeah it is. Yeah,

(01:05:29):
I was like, what the history of curse words? Um?
Our thoughts about sex, which we didn't get to get into.
But how words shape our our thoughts about sex and
our bodies. That's all in this running of the Gamut book.
The defense of y'all, which I really appreciated since here
in the South, as Georgians, we definitely really appreciated that.

(01:05:52):
Oh hell yeah, I will always go to bat for
you all. I have felt so judged for so long,
but I feel it's being more accepted now. Yeah. Um, okay,
the listeners where they can find you, where they can
get your book, all those things. Yeah yeah. You can
find me on Instagram at Amanda Underscore Montell and there

(01:06:14):
I postum some little short mini lessons about language and gender.
Um quite a lot. So if you want even more
of the stuff in micro doses, you can find it
there um. And then you can find word Slut wherever
books are sold. It's also available in e book and audiobook.
And I recorded it so nice, nice, Well, thank you again,

(01:06:36):
thank you so much for joining us. Definitely go check
Amanda out. Listeners, go read word Slut. It was a
very fun, wonderful read um. And if you would like
to find out as you can, you can email us
at Stuff Media, mom Stuff at i heeart media dot com.
You can find us on Instagram at stuff I've Never
Told You, are on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks

(01:06:56):
as always to our superproducer Andrew Howard. Thanks and thanks
to you for listening Stuff I've Never Told You. His
protection of I Heeart Radio for more podcasts from I
Heart Radio, but the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or
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