December 22, 2018 • 43 mins
You may have heard about some controversy around the Oscars lately. We throw our hat in the ring, and revisit this classic episode about the first female director of Hollywood.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hey, this is Annie, and you're listening to stuff mob
never told you. My family used to have this tradition
that we would go see a movie every Christmas Eve,
and it was one of my favorite things. Every year,
(00:28):
we rotated between my siblings on who got to pick
the movie, my siblings and my cousins. And I particularly
remember one year when my older brother chose star Trek Nemesis,
even though he knew I was terrified of aliens. That's
probably why he chose it. Let's be real, so I
spent that night wide awake out of fear instead of
out of excitement for Santa, as was the norm. As
(00:52):
comes to a close and we all start taking stock
of the year, here's a box office movie fact for you.
People like and we'll pay for movie starring women. I know,
it's a shocker. According to a study conducted by Creative
Artist Agency and Shift seven, which is a tech company,
it analyzed the three fifty top grossing films released in
the period from January to December. Turns out, movies with
(01:17):
a woman credited it in the lead role made more
money worldwide, which if you're wondering, These movies comprised of
one hundred and five out of the three fifty total examined.
Also of note movies that passed the Bechdel test, which is,
in case you didn't know, um, one more than one
female character to these female characters have a conversation, and
(01:38):
three not about men. Uh. These movies that passed the
test made more money than the movies that didn't pass
the test, and of the movie studied did not pass.
By the way, every single movie that passed the one
billion dollar goal post passed the Bechdel test. It goes
to show that phrase we commonly hear that people won't
(01:59):
pay to see movies with women in the lead roles
isn't true. Still, though, we have a lot more work
to do when it comes to inclusion. In fact, women
in lead roles and LGBTQ representation went down. In this
classic episode, we take a look at the evolution of
the female action hero from highly sexualized just still probably sexualized,
(02:22):
but maybe not as much. Enjoy Welcome to Stuff Mom
Never told You from how stupp works dot com. Hello,
and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline,
and the Hunger Game sequel, Catching Fire is soon coming
(02:46):
out and we have action heroines on the brain. As
a result, we do. Yeah, I mean, thanks to the
awesome Jennifer Lawrence, who I just kind of always wish
that I were best friends with her. It got us
thinking about some other amazing women who've been in film
and kind of where the female action hero or action
(03:08):
character fits into the genre. Yeah. So we've got a
lot to talk about, and we gotta first kick things
off with Pam Greer because even though she was largely
in a lot of black exploitation films, sexploitation films, uh,
she is Hollywood's first female action star, right. She kicks
(03:34):
so much but in those movies from the seventies, and
and she knows it because in her words from Pam Greer,
she says, I'm going to make movies the way I
see fit. No threatless, mindless women, no dumb situations. I
know I have to go slow, but I'm going to
sneak up on them little by little, and then I'm
going to create a monster. This girl isn't just another
(03:55):
body for their cameras. And I mean she she has
a great body, She's an incredibly beautiful woman. She is
you know, when you talk about Pam Greer or when
you read about Pam Greer, it almost can't be separated
from what she looks like, which is actually the same
for actually most other female action stars period. Yeah, and
(04:17):
in Ricky Schubert's The Female Hero in Action Cinema from
nineteen seventy to two thousand and six, she refers to
Greer first of all as the godmother of action films
and traces the timeline of Pam Greer's ascent. And she
started out in nineteen seventy one in a women in
prison film. This would be one of those exploitation kinds
(04:39):
of films, Uh really that just depict women in scant
clothing who are all in prison together and all sorts
of hijink, sexual and otherwise. And Sue and she did
a couple of these kinds of films and made such
a big impression that in nineteen seventy three, just a
couple of years later, she stars in ca Fee And
(05:00):
the tag line of that is She's the godmother of
them all, the baddest one chick hit squad that ever
hit town. And while yes, obviously Coffee, as you you
might assume from the title, is absolutely a black exploitation film,
it was nevertheless hailed by Hollywood because we have this
(05:21):
female action lead. I love taglines on these movie posters
because they go on for several paragraphs that seems like
just describing exactly how kick buttish these women are. Anyway,
So after she starting Coffee, Um, that made her the
number one action lead for women, and that led to
(05:41):
nine Foxy Brown and n Sheba Baby and then I
mean she didn't quit. She was in the movie Jackie Brown. Yeah,
that Quentin Tarantino film kind of revived her image as
that iconic female action lead. And in these film almes,
even though there's a lot of problematic stuff going on
(06:03):
in terms of racial stereotypes and misogyny, and clearly that
the exploitation of Pam Grier's amazing body. Um, there's a
lot of play going on in terms of anxiety over
masculinity and male sexual performance in Greer's films. One thing
that Hubert points out is how often she ends up shooting, kicking,
(06:28):
or punching men in the genitals, and she later says,
Pam Grier does that quote, we were making fun of men,
making fun of us and saying back at you. Yeah.
A lot of it circles around to the woman. The
female lead, Pam Greer kind of emasculating the male characters
out of revenge. Usually a lot of these are revenge flicks.
(06:50):
So either her, her sister, or her father or someone
in her family has been harmed in some way, usually
by like a pamper, a drug dealer, and so she's
this kind of quote unquote crazy, a woman out for
revenge on all of these men and uh. In a
Guardian interview, she said that as a strong woman, I
was seen as a threat. There was a fear that
women would mimic me in real life. I remember certain
(07:13):
people saying, oh, she's taking our jobs, she's castrating men.
As far as I was concerned, I thought, we don't
need to walk behind you, we should walk beside you.
And so, yeah, it's just like this, this powerful woman
who's more than powerful, she's dangerous, was seen as a
threat on screen and off. Yeah. And even though it
might seem like Pam Greer would be the victim of
(07:36):
the camera lens in this sense, being being in these
exploitative films, but in a lot of ways, there were
always strands of empowerment that were intertwined with this exploitation
and one thing that's pointed out I think this was
in an article from in the Week by Monica Bartsiel
talking about how race was never downplayed, nor her independence,
(08:01):
but at the same time, her sexuality and her body. Obviously,
we're always at the forefront of these films, and those
two issues of sexuality and the female body is something
that is still being talked about decades later in terms
of where are women in action films, or more where
are female action leads, because there are plenty of women
(08:21):
in action films who are dancels in distress being saved, right,
I mean, there is a lot of back and forth
about the positives and negatives of highlighting the body. But
we'll get to that in a little bit. And right now,
let's look at why Greer's career is so significant as
that powerhouse action character. Sociologist Katherine Gilpatrick examined female action
(08:45):
heroes and gender stereotypes in study. She looked at one
hundred and fifty seven heroines and films released from two
thousand five, So that's excluding Greer's early films as well
as characters like Ripley from Aliens. Yeah, but to get
an idea of just how how big of a deal.
(09:05):
It is that back in the seventies, Greer was an
action lead. Gilpatrick found that only seven percent of those
one and fifty seven heroines were what we might consider
a true action heroine, like a Laura Croft or a
Coffee or a Sheba Baby somebody like that. And that's
seventeen years after the reign of Pam Greer. And meanwhile,
(09:30):
fifty eight point six percent of these fifty seven women
were depicted as submissive to the male hero. Still they're
maintaining those feminine stereotypes. And thirty percent died by the
end of the film. Percent of those who died were
actually evil women characters who died for their crimes in
some sort of twisted fashion. Oh so so we're just
(09:53):
getting killed off. Yeah, they're like, oh, that woman is
stepping outside her bounds. We better just kill her off
at the end of the movie. And I mean Gilpatrick
does point out that this violent female character, whether she's
good or bad, is kind of redefining how female action
characters are appearing on screen, for better or for worse. Yeah,
but she also points out how the average v fact,
(10:16):
the violent female action character doesn't look very much at all, though,
like Greer's characters often they're young, they're white, highly educated,
and unmarried. And that jumped out to me in researching this,
because now, when we're going to talk about the more
contemporary female action leads that we think of, it is
(10:40):
mostly a roster of white women. And so I wonder
why it had to maybe be Pam Greer in a
black exploitation kind of film who was able to pave
the way. Does that make sense? Yeah? And why and
why African American characters like her have not and able
(11:00):
to really continue. Yeah, it was like at first we
would we were only Hollywood was only comfortable with seeing,
you know, a black woman being so violent and aggressive.
But now the outside of Halle Berry and Zoe Seldonna
and a few others, they're few and far between. No,
I really think that's an interesting point, and I wonder
(11:22):
this is complete just theory. I wonder if it just
has anything to do with directors or movie makers fearing
that their movies will be seen as like black exploitation
movies or sexploitation movies that Pam group started. Maybe they
don't want their movie to come off like that. Well,
I think it seems like the conversation right now is
(11:44):
so focused on just getting women in these action lead
roles that it's still a very normative sort of conversation
and just like, get anyone in there. Okay, let's put
Angelia Jolie, let's put you know, I mean, most of
the A list stars, a majority of them are going
to be the white women. And so it's like we
(12:07):
haven't even evolved to the point to where people are like, oh, well,
and now let's talk about diversity, which is unfortunate. Why
why we can't do both at the same time. I
don't know. Um, but let's let's go back a little
bit to the nineteen eighties, because that is when you
start to see this evolution of a tougher, more muscularized
(12:30):
woman action star. Yeah. Of course, we've already mentioned Sigourney
Weaver and Alien she had she delivers that excellent, excellent line,
uh that it contains that cur sports I'm not going
to say it. But we've also got Linda Hamilton's who's
also amazing and Terminator too. She is so ripped and
bad a um. And then there's Whoopi Goldberg. I mean,
(12:52):
we you know, we talked about a lack of diversity
and Whoopi Goldberg is is typically a comedy star. She
stars as a tough cop in Fatal not exactly like
some hard hitting action film, but she's still there as
like a non romantic, you know, action star. Yeah, and
in this next one. I have not seen this film, Caroline,
(13:13):
but I know that you're a big fan of it.
Long Kiss good Night with Gina Davis. I love it.
I actually haven't seen it in a long time, and
reading all about Action Stars made me want to read
it again. And Sam Jackson actually he co starred with
Gina Davis, and there was an interview with him and
Scarlett Johansson and Josh Wheden about this topic of women
action stars, and he kind of took over the interview
(13:34):
and talked about Long Kiss good Night a lot, saying
that it was one of the best female led action
movies out there and he was proud to be a
part of it. So Gina Davis gets real tough, she
gets rolls off, rolls off like she she uh, she's
a b a H kind of woman, a vamp. Yeah,
she's a b amf um. And that's great though, because
(13:55):
Gina Davis also is one of the top champions right
now that you hear about advocating for better representation of
women in Hollywood, right like she was in a misrepresentation.
Have you seen that she's in that documentary and talking
a lot at length about the importance of the depiction
and the perception of women on film, you know, in
(14:18):
society as well. And she's she's very admirable. I love
her well. And I'm sure that this issue of women
in action roles and not just being the damsel in
distress is part of that conversation because as we move
forward in our Hollywood evolution, we do have people like
Angelina Jolie who are in a lot of action roles.
(14:39):
You know, she was insult she was in Tomb Writer
of course, Mr and Mrs Smith. You have Uma Thurman
as Beatrix Kiddo and Kill Bill. She might be one
of my top five favorite action leads. Yeah, she was.
She was great in that movie. But I mean she's
so like single minded and incredible. Um one movie I
didn't see. I did watch the cartoon on MTV years ago. Uh,
(15:03):
despite how dark it is is Eon Flux Charlie's Theren
Oh and apparently that was quite a box office tank. Yeah,
I got panned, so I can't. I have no idea
whether it's any good or not. And then uh knew
me a repace. I'm sorry if I just butchered her name.
She was in Prometheus with Charlie's Theoren, but she was
also the original girl with the dragon tattoo. Yeah, and
then followed up with Rudy Mara who did the American version.
(15:27):
And obviously there are lots of names and movies that
we can continue tossing out, but circling back around to
The Hunger Games and Catnis. Everdeene played by Jennifer Lawrence.
When the first movie came out, Hollywood observers were particularly
excited about this heroine. Right Yeah, Rolling Stones Peter Travers
(15:51):
called her a female warrior worth cheering. I mean she
she is based on a character in the books, which
have about million copies in print. She's a character who
is on her own. She's not fighting for love, you know,
she's she's fighting for survival to protect her family. You
know she is. She kicks a lot of but and
(16:14):
she is independent and strong while doing so. Yeah, And
there's also commentary on house. She doesn't have any special power.
She's not a superhero. She it's just her against the world,
using her smarts, using obviously her bone arrow skills, um,
using her incredible running and jumping capabilities. Um. And it
(16:34):
doesn't even though there are semi romantic plot lines in
the books, it's not like a Twilight scenario when you're
either team Edward or team Jacob. And let's face it,
Bella's not the most exciting of action heroes, right. Someone
call her an empty vessel. Um. People thought that this movie,
(16:58):
they were like, oh, it's it's gonna be really interesting
to see how much money this movie takes in. I
bet it takes in like sixty million or something like that,
and which would be incredible, but the reality blew the
predictions out of the water. The movie on opening weekend
took in one hundred and fifty five million dollars. Yeah,
that was way more than expected. I think it actually
(17:18):
made a box office record. And the fact that The
Hunger Games was made on only seventy million dollars, which
is pennies in a bucket by Hollywood standards, and so
for that reason, this success surprised people even more. And
another person we should say he was really excited about
Catness was sociologist Katherine Gilpatrick who did that two thousand
(17:42):
and ten study on female action characters in film, and
she said, yes, she's a true action heroin she wants
to protect her family. She's smart, she's heroic, but she's
not played up as sexy, and she said that her
character undermined stereotypes of female dependency. So Catness, I feel like,
(18:04):
revived this conversation of women in these action leads. Although
she is she plays a younger character. I believe she's sixteen,
but still right, especially in light of the fact that
in her study Gilpatrick said that, you know, my research
shows that you know, the majority, the large majority of
(18:25):
women action characters are not empowering characters. You know, they're
they're kind of like the side show, the sexy shot
side show. And so I think, yeah, she was very
excited about Catness, just as a lot of other people are.
I mean, she is a refreshing departure from that Twilight
discussion of what boy is you know the lead going
(18:47):
to fall in love with? Yeah, And some people have
said that The Hunger Games is an example of a
surge in female lead action films. There is a movie,
hey Wire, starring the m m a fighter Gina Krano,
although kind of like a on flux hey Wire, did
not do too well at the box office for reasons
(19:09):
though that we'll get into in a little bit. Um
there's also sear Sha Ronan who plays a teenage assassin
in Hannah, and she was also a star of the
science fiction film The Host. Oh Hayley Steinfeld. I'm a
huge fan of her. She led the charge for revenge
in True Grit, which if you haven't seen it, what
(19:29):
are you waiting for? I love that movie and I
read the book and the movie is so good. The
movie is very good. And now now she'll be starring
an Enders game as well. And then we have a
little Chloe Morettes who is an Atlanta native Christen she
didn't know that. Yeah. She stars in kick Ass one
and two and the movie Let Me In. And on
the animated front, we can't forget Merida of Disney Pixar's Brave,
(19:52):
which was their very first female lad animated movie, which
also did very well at the box office, kind of
in a Hunger Game store of way where people are
like our folks gonna want to go see this? Will
children want to see a plucky young girl leading the charge. Yep, yeah, yeah,
they well, especially with all that crazy red hair that
I love exactly. So all of this. It's interesting that
(20:23):
we're talking about this surge now in because the way
that people are talking about it and talking about cantinets,
you would think that this is the first time we've
ever been around the block with female action characters and
and female led action movies. But we were having pretty
much this exact same conversation back in two thousand one,
when according to the Washington Monthly, action chicks were taking
(20:47):
over action chicks. What a what a descriptive phrase. Um,
but it's true though. This was when we had Laura
Croft hitting the box office and the massive success of
Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, and and critics were saying in
response to this that, oh, you know what, beefcake is
played out and reliance on brute force is passe. A
(21:09):
female action stars are where it's at. And yet a
decade later, we're having this conversation all over again, right,
And I mean it was the same, It was almost
the exact same thing. There were there were conversations of
you know, femininity versus masculinity, strength versus brains, you know,
all of that kind of stuff, whether whether it's okay
(21:32):
for a woman to kick a man's but on screen,
or in talking about how perhaps a female action lead
doesn't have to perform action in the same way that
a guide does. She doesn't have to necessarily have to
knock out some giant ogre. She might use her brains
(21:52):
more or use her bow and arrow ala Cadmus or
something like that. Um And in talking about why this
is coming up more today, Jeff Gomez, who is the
founder of the marketing company Starlight Runner, says that it's
a culmination and convergence of trends that have been building,
i e. The growing knowledge that women are making the
(22:14):
decisions in regard to entertainment choices, which I feel like
we've been doing that for a while. I think that's interesting.
I I I wish that there was a little bit
more information from from Mr Gomez. Uh. I think that
was in a Huffington's Post story, because I mean, what's
the difference now, Like we're women not allowed to say
what movies they wanted to go to back when you know,
(22:36):
g I Jane or Long Kiss Good Night we're in theaters,
like I do. I wonder what that means well, a
lot of times when we talk about action movies, we're
talking about blockbusters and movies with huge budgets, and a
lot of times those movies draw more male audiences. But
it might just be because it's you know, Sylvester stallone
(23:00):
own on screen. You can't even understand it's true. Um anyway, Well,
another another reason for the episode could be that you know,
people have I say people, I mean like movie makers.
Filmmakers have seen the incredible popularity of films film series
really like Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter, and
they're trying to find a new way to tell the story.
(23:22):
How do we take this successful formula and tweak it?
And so maybe you know, let's let's stig a woman
in there instead. Well, in speaking of let's stick a
woman in there instead, um, there's also this idea that, hey,
maybe younger viewers are more into the idea of going
to see an action movie, regardless of whether it's starring
(23:45):
Jennifer Lawrence or give me a name of a strong
men Chris Hemsworth, Chris Hemsworth, thank you. And Hunger Games
producer Nina Jacobson was talking about this about how viewers
under twenty five are more open to the idea that
a character's identity isn't defined by gender alone, and that's
(24:07):
I mean, that's a refreshing thing. I hope that's true. Yeah. Absolutely.
But there's also the legacy issue too, in which you know,
filmmakers and production houses want to make money obviously off
their films, and if female at action movies in the
past tank like an a on flux, like a haywire,
(24:29):
then when someone comes back around pitching an idea for
a female at action film, the funders say that didn't
work so well in the past, right, So it's not
necessarily direct like hatred of women per se. It's it's
more of like, well, if it's not going to make money,
I don't care who the star is. Yeah, I mean,
(24:49):
it's executives making executive type business decisions, which is why
the success again of a Hunger Games like movie is
so huge for the future of women in action. Absolutely,
And I mean I do wonder, like I mean, I know,
I I I kind of speak poorly of the Twilight series, Um,
(25:12):
but I wonder if that did help usher in catness. Oh,
I'm sure it did, because both of them were based
on book series, and both of those Twilight and Hunger
Game series skewed female in their readership, and those were,
you know, the people who did end up buying the
bulk of the tickets, although there were still plenty of
dudes who filled those theater seats as well. But in
(25:37):
considering though, why more female action leads on the big
screen is important other than just basic parody, It's worthwhile
considering what we really want from this as an audience
because some could say, well, aren't you just glorifying violence?
Or you know, these women are often, you know, very
(26:00):
sexy and their bodies are always on display. So what
is it about the female action hero that's so great
for audiences? Yeah. Um Inku Kang wrote for ny y
R in June that these female action stars need to
be positive role models. That's the that's the role that
they should serve, because she says we've been waiting a
(26:22):
long time to see more female protagonists distinguished by their heart, courage,
and smarts instead of their cup size. But she does
admit that these female stars should not be considered less
of a role model because their conventional attractiveness is on display,
these bodies show strength, and she even mentions Michelle Obama
(26:42):
because she said, you know, it can't be a bad
thing to show a female head basically on a strong
muscular body. Yeah. And that doesn't necessarily mean, though, that
they have to model male behavior. As Elissa Rosenberg points
out at Think Progress, she says that male action heroes
(27:02):
are heightened versions of the ideals and traits to which
men are supposed to aspire. Success with getting women in
action leads does not mean just putting jamming women into
those same kinds of aspirational characters, right. She talks about
how if they're going to model some behavior, that they
(27:25):
should filmmakers, directors whoever, should acknowledge the differences in strength
and the different strengths that exist between men and women.
For instance, brains tact in maternal nature and women versus strength, bravery,
and protectiveness in men. I don't disagree, however, I just
is it maternal? The word maternal that kind of raises
(27:46):
your eyebrow. Not necessarily, but why you know, I think strength, bravery,
and protectiveness are sure not gender specific. Agreed, you know?
And and and yes, I get what what they're sayinging
as far as you know, you have like a thor
a Chris Hemsworth, you know, fighting and hammering and look
(28:07):
and gorgeous when he does it, you know, And and
so it's not that a woman can't do that. They're
arguing that, I guess women should be you know used there. Well,
it's like if speaking of Thor. Okay, this comes up
in conversations about The Avengers and Scott Johansson's role as
a black widow in that where yes, she's in fight
(28:27):
scenes and she definitely knows how to take some people
down with her brute strength, but her brute strength is
not in a Thor kind of way her number one
contribution to the group. She's able to outsmart people and
use maybe a broader array of talents. Yeah, I mean,
(28:49):
because Rosenberg does cite Sigourney Weaver's uh portrayal of that
maternal instinct. You know, it's Sigourney Weaver mother versus alien
mother going head to head and how how that maternal
force propels her to defeat the aliens and so yeah, no,
I get it, but I think that we shouldn't, you know,
(29:09):
we shouldn't stick people in those strict strict roles. Well,
and even Katie sack Off, who is a Battlestar Galactica. Alum,
she plays Starbuck. I believe. Um. She says, yeah, just
you don't just make them dudes. She was talking to
Vanity Fair about this, and she said, I'm tired of
women playing action heroes like men because they aren't men,
(29:32):
but sometimes they are written like men. I want women
who play these roles to realize that you don't have
to take away the vulnerability and the femininity. Those things
just make the character stronger. Because you take the sensibilities
of being a woman with the physical training of a man,
you'd be unstoppable. So maybe instead of like saying that
women have to use their feminine wiles and men have
(29:54):
to use their brute strength, we we can switch it
up a little exactly and everybody gets a piece of
both of those things. Well, in speaking of the feminine
wiles issue, what about the sexiness? This comes up a lot.
I mean, starting with a conversation about you know, Pam Greer,
where sex was always at the forefront of everything, and
even it was like before she could punch a guy
(30:16):
in his crotch, she would first probably have to feign
at least starting to have sex with him or something
like that. Right, And actually that's kind of what Katie
Waldman from Slate wrote. She said that women use sex
appeal as a weapon farm more than male characters do,
and that they tend to reach a point in their
missions where they must feign a desire for a powerful
(30:38):
male to get what they want. But she asks if
female action here is excel and marshaling that sexuality, does
that take away from their athletic or mental feet well?
And also as I was reading this, two words came
into my mind. James Bond. That's all the guy does
is trick women into bed and then you're shuddering with
(30:59):
the light you Craig looks so good in this suit,
but in every Double O seven film, the plot line
eventually involves him getting in bed with someone and that
and the interesting thing is that we think of James Bond,
you know, being more of a guy type of flick
(31:19):
where you know, his sexiness, though, is integral to the
whole franchise. Sure, his his sexiness, but also, I mean,
James Bond isn't doing a lot of hand to hand combat.
I mean he's not. He doesn't have a thor hammer,
He's not running around punching people in the face necessarily,
he's he's being sneaky. He's he's using his brains and
(31:40):
his technological knowledge uh and his his uh, his sex
appeal to to win these missions. While Scott Johansson, in
that conversation referenced earlier with Joss Wheden and some other folks,
was talking about how she feels like, as someone who
has played this role before, that there is too much
(32:00):
focus on sexuality. She should have funny quote saying I
think they're always fighting in a bra so while it
might be exciting for a still photo, it's ridiculous. But
I have a feeling she might have also been exasperated
at this point because on the press tour for The Avengers,
the number of questions that she got about losing weight
(32:23):
for the role, what whether she was wearing underwear in
her Cats suit, all of these absurd questions that, of
course none of the other guys were asked, and she
called the journalists out for it, which is great, But yeah,
I can imagine why she thinks something like that. She
should just probably hold up que cards at some point
(32:44):
and be like, here, just write this down. Yeah, this
is this is my my stance on that um. But
you know, I mean, say what you will, that sex
appeal helps draw quite quite a large audience. And the
thing is, at least according to this too and three
thesis that we found UM from the University of Washington,
male viewers are drawn to female action lead movies because
(33:10):
in part of the sexiness the sex factor, whereas women
tend to watch action films to see complex female characters
in complex roles. Yeah. I I I'm not a huge
action movie fan. I don't really go out of my
way to watch action movies. But in in more thinking
(33:31):
that type of action movies, I do like to see
the type of women characters that they have versus like
a romantic comedy. Sure well, and the thing is plenty
of men, like we've said, are going to see these movies.
And not to make it sound like this episode of
sponsored by Hunger Games, you know, but but of Jennifer
Lawrence would like to come to the podcast. This is
(33:53):
her invitation, um. But thirty nine of the opening weekend
audience at the Hunger Games was men, right, and they
made up of the opening weekend audience for Brave, although
I wonder if that was Dad's taking little girls either way.
Either way, it's a good thing, and they made up
(34:14):
almost half of the Snow White and the Huntsman audience.
But that might tie into to the fact that it
was starring Kristen Stewart and Charlie's Throne, two very attractive women,
and that might tie into that sex appeal aspect of
this whole conversation. And I'm trying to think of the
(34:34):
previews too. I did not see the movie, but I
remember the previews being very like action oriented, not not
any sort of like somebody falling in love with someone
else oriented, And so I wonder if that was more
of a draw too. Well, And something that's come up
to is a likability issue. We're circling back around to Haywire,
which was the action movie starring m M A Fighter
(34:56):
Gina Kurano, which tanked at the box office, and Jeff Gomez,
again speaking to having to Post, thinks that it has
to do with the trailer showing a relatively unknown actress
beating up well liked male co stars Channing Tatum and
you and McGregor. Yeah, And he says that this makes
(35:18):
her threatening to men and unsympathetic to women. I didn't
see that movie because well, I'm just so really good
at the theater. I don't know how many times in
this podcast I'm gonna say I haven't seen that movie. Um,
but I thought the trailer looked really cool. I don't.
I mean, how is it any different than what's your Name? Um?
Girl with the dragon tattoo beating up guys in that movie?
(35:39):
But yeah, I mean, I think this is not so
much an issue of not wanting to see Channing Tatum
getting his face beaten in by a woman, but the
issue of it's hard to probably make a big box
office draw starring someone unknown period. Well, I mean, and
that like aility ties into this idea coming from the
(36:03):
Washington Monthly, that men will watch these movies, but only
to a point. Uh. They wrote that women are still
only allowed to be violent within certain parameters, largely prescribed
by what men are willing to tolerate, and while what
they will tolerate on screen has changed. The writer says
women action characters violence is more sterilized and their appearance
(36:24):
is less messy. But then, to give the final word
to Josh Sweden, for whom we have Buffy the Vampire
Slayer to think, he says that actually, guys really, really
really do want to see women in action on screen? Right? Yeah?
He he admits that there's a glass ceiling cinematically. Um.
He says, there's not a major studio that is out
(36:46):
there that is trying to make a movie about a
female superhero. They'll say this is guy stuff. They'll say
women don't want to see action or men don't want
to see women, And I'm like, men don't want to
see women of us? Really do? Well? It reminds me
of the Heat that came out this summer, which was
starring Sandra Bullock and Melissa McCarthy, and it did huge
numbers at the box office, and it was the first
(37:07):
of its kind as a softer sort of action film,
but it was a buddy cop movie starring two women,
and people were initially kind of like with the preview
of Hunger Game, saying, well, this is actually gonna draw
any any money? Oh yeah, it does because we get
excited about these kinds of things. We get excited about
seeing women in new kinds of roles. And it's going
(37:31):
back to what we said earlier about uh, you know, legacy,
about when something is successful before it's more likely to
be recreated made again. More money put invested into it,
and so somebody like Melissa McCarthy, who's known to be
hilarious and she was in Bridesmaids, which was hugely successful. Also,
people are more willing to be like, Okay, she's not
(37:51):
a face that I would normally associate with this type
of movie, but you know, she's starring with Sandra Bullock,
who's you know, an incredible actors. Let me go see it. Yeah, exactly.
One thing that we haven't circled back around to is
the diversity factor, because again, it's mostly white actress after
a white actress for the most part. But in terms
of women in action films, it does seem like it's
(38:14):
not just a deja bu of two thousand one, that
there is actually progress being made in Hollywood. And I
think Hunger Games is partially to thank for that. Yeah. Absolutely,
so best of luck to Jennifer Lawrence and her crew.
I hope you bring in so many millions of dollars
catching fire. Yeah, so so that they'll just keep making
(38:36):
more amazing roles for amazing female heroin action character ladies.
Just exactly what you said, Caroline, put it on a
T shirt. So let us tell your thoughts. So, if
you're you're an action fan listening, we want to hear
from you. Mom Stuff at Discovery dot com is where
you can send your letters. You can also message us
(38:57):
on Facebook and tweet us at mom Stuff podcast asked,
and we've got a couple of letters to share with
you when we come right back from a quick break
and now back to our letters. So Lana wrote us
(39:19):
with the story of trying to not be sexy on Halloween.
She writes, I just want a costume contest for Halloween,
and I feel pretty cool. I dressed up as a
Victorian era lion tamer. I'm really into authentic costumes, so
I put this together from a lot of different places
on Etsy. I didn't just buy a typical sexy lion
(39:40):
tamer costume. I'm not very comfortable being viewed as sexy,
but I do want everyone to think that I looked
really good. I recognize it's a fine line, but I
thought I did it very well with his costume. I
was pretty much fully covered. I felt really pretty in
my costume and totally comfortable. I was no sexy lion tamer.
I was a bad asked lion tamer, but on my
(40:01):
way to the bar where the contest was being held,
A guy dressed up like a top gun pilot told me,
you sure are falling out of that Huh. I was
totally stunned. I'm an hourglass shape with a big hips
and a large bus and a tiny waist. Obviously the
course it emphasizes, but I'd worked so hard to make
sure there was no cleavage. I don't know what I'm
supposed to do about the way my poor body is shaped.
(40:23):
I had no way tried to be sexy, but on
that street corner, this random guy made me feel like
I had purchased a sexy lion Tamer costume just for him.
Was he hitting on me? Was that the intent? Who knows?
I was feeling pretty sucky about my decision to wear
a corset. I just wanted to look pretty, not sexy.
When I got to the bar, I won the costume contest,
and that made me feel way better. But now I'm
(40:46):
really thinking about next year and what a girl with
my body type is allowed to do. But well, no,
I think I think, Alana, that you need to embrace
your curvy body shape. Your body is not poor, your
body is wonderful, and you're allowed to do whatever you want. Yeah,
And a guy making comments to you on the street
(41:07):
corner is what is out of line? Not you? And
you're awesome award winning Victorian line Tamer costume which does
sound quite cool? That does. And and if you want
to send us a picture, I would love to see it. Yeah.
And by the way, if you if there's an app
for cat calling, it's called hollaback and download it and
(41:28):
it can give you some tips on and how to
deal with dudes like that sounds good to me. This
is a Facebook message from Mandy. She's responding to our
Crazy Women podcast and said that it really resonated with her.
She says, it really irks me when people label someone
else is crazy, and it absolutely seems to happen way
more to women and girls than it ever does to
(41:50):
men and boys. I didn't really fit in in the
small town I grew up in, and one of the
mean things people said about me was that I was
crazy or a psycho. I didn't do anything to deserve
such harsh treatment, and pain of that still sticks with
me to this day, considering at the time that I
was going through such an anxiety disorder brought on by
undiagnosed obsessive compulsive disorder, being called crazy and wondering if
it was true made for some pretty miserable times in
(42:12):
my life. Now I'm a successful woman who runs around
business and is raising a young family. Through hard work
and behavior cognitive therapy as well as medication, I'm able
to live a life mostly free of o c D
and the symptoms of it, such as anxiety and depression.
I used to hide the emotional and mental problems I've
been through in my life, but now I am very
open and honest about it and hopes that I break
down this crazy stigma. And I'm always floored by the
(42:35):
amount of people, especially women, who have had similar experiences
and similar problems as me, but we're too afraid to
tell anyone or seek help for fear of being labeled. Crazy.
Words can hurt and do a lot of damage, and
crazy is no exception. So thank you so much Mandy
for sharing your story. I think it's very enlightening and
I hope uh some listeners out there take it to heart. Yeah,
(42:56):
and thanks to everyone who's written in mom Stuff. Discovery
dot Com is our email dress, so you can also
message us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter at mom
Stuff Podcast. You can also find us on Instagram at
stuff mom Never Told You and on Tumbler as well.
It's stuff I'm Never told You dot tumbler dot com.
And last, but certainly not least, we have a YouTube
channel and you should check it out. It's YouTube dot com,
(43:17):
slash stuff mom Never Told You, and don't forget to
subscribe for more on this and thousands of other topics.
Is it how stuff works dot com
Hey, this is Annie, and you're listening to stuff mob
never told you. My family used to have this tradition
that we would go see a movie every Christmas Eve,
and it was one of my favorite things. Every year,
(00:28):
we rotated between my siblings on who got to pick
the movie, my siblings and my cousins. And I particularly
remember one year when my older brother chose star Trek Nemesis,
even though he knew I was terrified of aliens. That's
probably why he chose it. Let's be real, so I
spent that night wide awake out of fear instead of
out of excitement for Santa, as was the norm. As
(00:52):
comes to a close and we all start taking stock
of the year, here's a box office movie fact for you.
People like and we'll pay for movie starring women. I know,
it's a shocker. According to a study conducted by Creative
Artist Agency and Shift seven, which is a tech company,
it analyzed the three fifty top grossing films released in
the period from January to December. Turns out, movies with
(01:17):
a woman credited it in the lead role made more
money worldwide, which if you're wondering, These movies comprised of
one hundred and five out of the three fifty total examined.
Also of note movies that passed the Bechdel test, which is,
in case you didn't know, um, one more than one
female character to these female characters have a conversation, and
(01:38):
three not about men. Uh. These movies that passed the
test made more money than the movies that didn't pass
the test, and of the movie studied did not pass.
By the way, every single movie that passed the one
billion dollar goal post passed the Bechdel test. It goes
to show that phrase we commonly hear that people won't
(01:59):
pay to see movies with women in the lead roles
isn't true. Still, though, we have a lot more work
to do when it comes to inclusion. In fact, women
in lead roles and LGBTQ representation went down. In this
classic episode, we take a look at the evolution of
the female action hero from highly sexualized just still probably sexualized,
(02:22):
but maybe not as much. Enjoy Welcome to Stuff Mom
Never told You from how stupp works dot com. Hello,
and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline,
and the Hunger Game sequel, Catching Fire is soon coming
(02:46):
out and we have action heroines on the brain. As
a result, we do. Yeah, I mean, thanks to the
awesome Jennifer Lawrence, who I just kind of always wish
that I were best friends with her. It got us
thinking about some other amazing women who've been in film
and kind of where the female action hero or action
(03:08):
character fits into the genre. Yeah. So we've got a
lot to talk about, and we gotta first kick things
off with Pam Greer because even though she was largely
in a lot of black exploitation films, sexploitation films, uh,
she is Hollywood's first female action star, right. She kicks
(03:34):
so much but in those movies from the seventies, and
and she knows it because in her words from Pam Greer,
she says, I'm going to make movies the way I
see fit. No threatless, mindless women, no dumb situations. I
know I have to go slow, but I'm going to
sneak up on them little by little, and then I'm
going to create a monster. This girl isn't just another
(03:55):
body for their cameras. And I mean she she has
a great body, She's an incredibly beautiful woman. She is
you know, when you talk about Pam Greer or when
you read about Pam Greer, it almost can't be separated
from what she looks like, which is actually the same
for actually most other female action stars period. Yeah, and
(04:17):
in Ricky Schubert's The Female Hero in Action Cinema from
nineteen seventy to two thousand and six, she refers to
Greer first of all as the godmother of action films
and traces the timeline of Pam Greer's ascent. And she
started out in nineteen seventy one in a women in
prison film. This would be one of those exploitation kinds
(04:39):
of films, Uh really that just depict women in scant
clothing who are all in prison together and all sorts
of hijink, sexual and otherwise. And Sue and she did
a couple of these kinds of films and made such
a big impression that in nineteen seventy three, just a
couple of years later, she stars in ca Fee And
(05:00):
the tag line of that is She's the godmother of
them all, the baddest one chick hit squad that ever
hit town. And while yes, obviously Coffee, as you you
might assume from the title, is absolutely a black exploitation film,
it was nevertheless hailed by Hollywood because we have this
(05:21):
female action lead. I love taglines on these movie posters
because they go on for several paragraphs that seems like
just describing exactly how kick buttish these women are. Anyway,
So after she starting Coffee, Um, that made her the
number one action lead for women, and that led to
(05:41):
nine Foxy Brown and n Sheba Baby and then I
mean she didn't quit. She was in the movie Jackie Brown. Yeah,
that Quentin Tarantino film kind of revived her image as
that iconic female action lead. And in these film almes,
even though there's a lot of problematic stuff going on
(06:03):
in terms of racial stereotypes and misogyny, and clearly that
the exploitation of Pam Grier's amazing body. Um, there's a
lot of play going on in terms of anxiety over
masculinity and male sexual performance in Greer's films. One thing
that Hubert points out is how often she ends up shooting, kicking,
(06:28):
or punching men in the genitals, and she later says,
Pam Grier does that quote, we were making fun of men,
making fun of us and saying back at you. Yeah.
A lot of it circles around to the woman. The
female lead, Pam Greer kind of emasculating the male characters
out of revenge. Usually a lot of these are revenge flicks.
(06:50):
So either her, her sister, or her father or someone
in her family has been harmed in some way, usually
by like a pamper, a drug dealer, and so she's
this kind of quote unquote crazy, a woman out for
revenge on all of these men and uh. In a
Guardian interview, she said that as a strong woman, I
was seen as a threat. There was a fear that
women would mimic me in real life. I remember certain
(07:13):
people saying, oh, she's taking our jobs, she's castrating men.
As far as I was concerned, I thought, we don't
need to walk behind you, we should walk beside you.
And so, yeah, it's just like this, this powerful woman
who's more than powerful, she's dangerous, was seen as a
threat on screen and off. Yeah. And even though it
might seem like Pam Greer would be the victim of
(07:36):
the camera lens in this sense, being being in these
exploitative films, but in a lot of ways, there were
always strands of empowerment that were intertwined with this exploitation
and one thing that's pointed out I think this was
in an article from in the Week by Monica Bartsiel
talking about how race was never downplayed, nor her independence,
(08:01):
but at the same time, her sexuality and her body. Obviously,
we're always at the forefront of these films, and those
two issues of sexuality and the female body is something
that is still being talked about decades later in terms
of where are women in action films, or more where
are female action leads, because there are plenty of women
(08:21):
in action films who are dancels in distress being saved, right,
I mean, there is a lot of back and forth
about the positives and negatives of highlighting the body. But
we'll get to that in a little bit. And right now,
let's look at why Greer's career is so significant as
that powerhouse action character. Sociologist Katherine Gilpatrick examined female action
(08:45):
heroes and gender stereotypes in study. She looked at one
hundred and fifty seven heroines and films released from two
thousand five, So that's excluding Greer's early films as well
as characters like Ripley from Aliens. Yeah, but to get
an idea of just how how big of a deal.
(09:05):
It is that back in the seventies, Greer was an
action lead. Gilpatrick found that only seven percent of those
one and fifty seven heroines were what we might consider
a true action heroine, like a Laura Croft or a
Coffee or a Sheba Baby somebody like that. And that's
seventeen years after the reign of Pam Greer. And meanwhile,
(09:30):
fifty eight point six percent of these fifty seven women
were depicted as submissive to the male hero. Still they're
maintaining those feminine stereotypes. And thirty percent died by the
end of the film. Percent of those who died were
actually evil women characters who died for their crimes in
some sort of twisted fashion. Oh so so we're just
(09:53):
getting killed off. Yeah, they're like, oh, that woman is
stepping outside her bounds. We better just kill her off
at the end of the movie. And I mean Gilpatrick
does point out that this violent female character, whether she's
good or bad, is kind of redefining how female action
characters are appearing on screen, for better or for worse. Yeah,
but she also points out how the average v fact,
(10:16):
the violent female action character doesn't look very much at all, though,
like Greer's characters often they're young, they're white, highly educated,
and unmarried. And that jumped out to me in researching this,
because now, when we're going to talk about the more
contemporary female action leads that we think of, it is
(10:40):
mostly a roster of white women. And so I wonder
why it had to maybe be Pam Greer in a
black exploitation kind of film who was able to pave
the way. Does that make sense? Yeah? And why and
why African American characters like her have not and able
(11:00):
to really continue. Yeah, it was like at first we
would we were only Hollywood was only comfortable with seeing,
you know, a black woman being so violent and aggressive.
But now the outside of Halle Berry and Zoe Seldonna
and a few others, they're few and far between. No,
I really think that's an interesting point, and I wonder
(11:22):
this is complete just theory. I wonder if it just
has anything to do with directors or movie makers fearing
that their movies will be seen as like black exploitation
movies or sexploitation movies that Pam group started. Maybe they
don't want their movie to come off like that. Well,
I think it seems like the conversation right now is
(11:44):
so focused on just getting women in these action lead
roles that it's still a very normative sort of conversation
and just like, get anyone in there. Okay, let's put
Angelia Jolie, let's put you know, I mean, most of
the A list stars, a majority of them are going
to be the white women. And so it's like we
(12:07):
haven't even evolved to the point to where people are like, oh, well,
and now let's talk about diversity, which is unfortunate. Why
why we can't do both at the same time. I
don't know. Um, but let's let's go back a little
bit to the nineteen eighties, because that is when you
start to see this evolution of a tougher, more muscularized
(12:30):
woman action star. Yeah. Of course, we've already mentioned Sigourney
Weaver and Alien she had she delivers that excellent, excellent line,
uh that it contains that cur sports I'm not going
to say it. But we've also got Linda Hamilton's who's
also amazing and Terminator too. She is so ripped and
bad a um. And then there's Whoopi Goldberg. I mean,
(12:52):
we you know, we talked about a lack of diversity
and Whoopi Goldberg is is typically a comedy star. She
stars as a tough cop in Fatal not exactly like
some hard hitting action film, but she's still there as
like a non romantic, you know, action star. Yeah, and
in this next one. I have not seen this film, Caroline,
(13:13):
but I know that you're a big fan of it.
Long Kiss good Night with Gina Davis. I love it.
I actually haven't seen it in a long time, and
reading all about Action Stars made me want to read
it again. And Sam Jackson actually he co starred with
Gina Davis, and there was an interview with him and
Scarlett Johansson and Josh Wheden about this topic of women
action stars, and he kind of took over the interview
(13:34):
and talked about Long Kiss good Night a lot, saying
that it was one of the best female led action
movies out there and he was proud to be a
part of it. So Gina Davis gets real tough, she
gets rolls off, rolls off like she she uh, she's
a b a H kind of woman, a vamp. Yeah,
she's a b amf um. And that's great though, because
(13:55):
Gina Davis also is one of the top champions right
now that you hear about advocating for better representation of
women in Hollywood, right like she was in a misrepresentation.
Have you seen that she's in that documentary and talking
a lot at length about the importance of the depiction
and the perception of women on film, you know, in
(14:18):
society as well. And she's she's very admirable. I love
her well. And I'm sure that this issue of women
in action roles and not just being the damsel in
distress is part of that conversation because as we move
forward in our Hollywood evolution, we do have people like
Angelina Jolie who are in a lot of action roles.
(14:39):
You know, she was insult she was in Tomb Writer
of course, Mr and Mrs Smith. You have Uma Thurman
as Beatrix Kiddo and Kill Bill. She might be one
of my top five favorite action leads. Yeah, she was.
She was great in that movie. But I mean she's
so like single minded and incredible. Um one movie I
didn't see. I did watch the cartoon on MTV years ago. Uh,
(15:03):
despite how dark it is is Eon Flux Charlie's Theren
Oh and apparently that was quite a box office tank. Yeah,
I got panned, so I can't. I have no idea
whether it's any good or not. And then uh knew
me a repace. I'm sorry if I just butchered her name.
She was in Prometheus with Charlie's Theoren, but she was
also the original girl with the dragon tattoo. Yeah, and
then followed up with Rudy Mara who did the American version.
(15:27):
And obviously there are lots of names and movies that
we can continue tossing out, but circling back around to
The Hunger Games and Catnis. Everdeene played by Jennifer Lawrence.
When the first movie came out, Hollywood observers were particularly
excited about this heroine. Right Yeah, Rolling Stones Peter Travers
(15:51):
called her a female warrior worth cheering. I mean she
she is based on a character in the books, which
have about million copies in print. She's a character who
is on her own. She's not fighting for love, you know,
she's she's fighting for survival to protect her family. You
know she is. She kicks a lot of but and
(16:14):
she is independent and strong while doing so. Yeah, And
there's also commentary on house. She doesn't have any special power.
She's not a superhero. She it's just her against the world,
using her smarts, using obviously her bone arrow skills, um,
using her incredible running and jumping capabilities. Um. And it
(16:34):
doesn't even though there are semi romantic plot lines in
the books, it's not like a Twilight scenario when you're
either team Edward or team Jacob. And let's face it,
Bella's not the most exciting of action heroes, right. Someone
call her an empty vessel. Um. People thought that this movie,
(16:58):
they were like, oh, it's it's gonna be really interesting
to see how much money this movie takes in. I
bet it takes in like sixty million or something like that,
and which would be incredible, but the reality blew the
predictions out of the water. The movie on opening weekend
took in one hundred and fifty five million dollars. Yeah,
that was way more than expected. I think it actually
(17:18):
made a box office record. And the fact that The
Hunger Games was made on only seventy million dollars, which
is pennies in a bucket by Hollywood standards, and so
for that reason, this success surprised people even more. And
another person we should say he was really excited about
Catness was sociologist Katherine Gilpatrick who did that two thousand
(17:42):
and ten study on female action characters in film, and
she said, yes, she's a true action heroin she wants
to protect her family. She's smart, she's heroic, but she's
not played up as sexy, and she said that her
character undermined stereotypes of female dependency. So Catness, I feel like,
(18:04):
revived this conversation of women in these action leads. Although
she is she plays a younger character. I believe she's sixteen,
but still right, especially in light of the fact that
in her study Gilpatrick said that, you know, my research
shows that you know, the majority, the large majority of
(18:25):
women action characters are not empowering characters. You know, they're
they're kind of like the side show, the sexy shot
side show. And so I think, yeah, she was very
excited about Catness, just as a lot of other people are.
I mean, she is a refreshing departure from that Twilight
discussion of what boy is you know the lead going
(18:47):
to fall in love with? Yeah, And some people have
said that The Hunger Games is an example of a
surge in female lead action films. There is a movie,
hey Wire, starring the m m a fighter Gina Krano,
although kind of like a on flux hey Wire, did
not do too well at the box office for reasons
(19:09):
though that we'll get into in a little bit. Um
there's also sear Sha Ronan who plays a teenage assassin
in Hannah, and she was also a star of the
science fiction film The Host. Oh Hayley Steinfeld. I'm a
huge fan of her. She led the charge for revenge
in True Grit, which if you haven't seen it, what
(19:29):
are you waiting for? I love that movie and I
read the book and the movie is so good. The
movie is very good. And now now she'll be starring
an Enders game as well. And then we have a
little Chloe Morettes who is an Atlanta native Christen she
didn't know that. Yeah. She stars in kick Ass one
and two and the movie Let Me In. And on
the animated front, we can't forget Merida of Disney Pixar's Brave,
(19:52):
which was their very first female lad animated movie, which
also did very well at the box office, kind of
in a Hunger Game store of way where people are
like our folks gonna want to go see this? Will
children want to see a plucky young girl leading the charge. Yep, yeah, yeah,
they well, especially with all that crazy red hair that
I love exactly. So all of this. It's interesting that
(20:23):
we're talking about this surge now in because the way
that people are talking about it and talking about cantinets,
you would think that this is the first time we've
ever been around the block with female action characters and
and female led action movies. But we were having pretty
much this exact same conversation back in two thousand one,
when according to the Washington Monthly, action chicks were taking
(20:47):
over action chicks. What a what a descriptive phrase. Um,
but it's true though. This was when we had Laura
Croft hitting the box office and the massive success of
Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, and and critics were saying in
response to this that, oh, you know what, beefcake is
played out and reliance on brute force is passe. A
(21:09):
female action stars are where it's at. And yet a
decade later, we're having this conversation all over again, right,
And I mean it was the same, It was almost
the exact same thing. There were there were conversations of
you know, femininity versus masculinity, strength versus brains, you know,
all of that kind of stuff, whether whether it's okay
(21:32):
for a woman to kick a man's but on screen,
or in talking about how perhaps a female action lead
doesn't have to perform action in the same way that
a guide does. She doesn't have to necessarily have to
knock out some giant ogre. She might use her brains
(21:52):
more or use her bow and arrow ala Cadmus or
something like that. Um And in talking about why this
is coming up more today, Jeff Gomez, who is the
founder of the marketing company Starlight Runner, says that it's
a culmination and convergence of trends that have been building,
i e. The growing knowledge that women are making the
(22:14):
decisions in regard to entertainment choices, which I feel like
we've been doing that for a while. I think that's interesting.
I I I wish that there was a little bit
more information from from Mr Gomez. Uh. I think that
was in a Huffington's Post story, because I mean, what's
the difference now, Like we're women not allowed to say
what movies they wanted to go to back when you know,
(22:36):
g I Jane or Long Kiss Good Night we're in theaters,
like I do. I wonder what that means well, a
lot of times when we talk about action movies, we're
talking about blockbusters and movies with huge budgets, and a
lot of times those movies draw more male audiences. But
it might just be because it's you know, Sylvester stallone
(23:00):
own on screen. You can't even understand it's true. Um anyway, Well,
another another reason for the episode could be that you know,
people have I say people, I mean like movie makers.
Filmmakers have seen the incredible popularity of films film series
really like Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter, and
they're trying to find a new way to tell the story.
(23:22):
How do we take this successful formula and tweak it?
And so maybe you know, let's let's stig a woman
in there instead. Well, in speaking of let's stick a
woman in there instead, um, there's also this idea that, hey,
maybe younger viewers are more into the idea of going
to see an action movie, regardless of whether it's starring
(23:45):
Jennifer Lawrence or give me a name of a strong
men Chris Hemsworth, Chris Hemsworth, thank you. And Hunger Games
producer Nina Jacobson was talking about this about how viewers
under twenty five are more open to the idea that
a character's identity isn't defined by gender alone, and that's
(24:07):
I mean, that's a refreshing thing. I hope that's true. Yeah. Absolutely.
But there's also the legacy issue too, in which you know,
filmmakers and production houses want to make money obviously off
their films, and if female at action movies in the
past tank like an a on flux, like a haywire,
(24:29):
then when someone comes back around pitching an idea for
a female at action film, the funders say that didn't
work so well in the past, right, So it's not
necessarily direct like hatred of women per se. It's it's
more of like, well, if it's not going to make money,
I don't care who the star is. Yeah, I mean,
(24:49):
it's executives making executive type business decisions, which is why
the success again of a Hunger Games like movie is
so huge for the future of women in action. Absolutely,
And I mean I do wonder, like I mean, I know,
I I I kind of speak poorly of the Twilight series, Um,
(25:12):
but I wonder if that did help usher in catness. Oh,
I'm sure it did, because both of them were based
on book series, and both of those Twilight and Hunger
Game series skewed female in their readership, and those were,
you know, the people who did end up buying the
bulk of the tickets, although there were still plenty of
dudes who filled those theater seats as well. But in
(25:37):
considering though, why more female action leads on the big
screen is important other than just basic parody, It's worthwhile
considering what we really want from this as an audience
because some could say, well, aren't you just glorifying violence?
Or you know, these women are often, you know, very
(26:00):
sexy and their bodies are always on display. So what
is it about the female action hero that's so great
for audiences? Yeah. Um Inku Kang wrote for ny y
R in June that these female action stars need to
be positive role models. That's the that's the role that
they should serve, because she says we've been waiting a
(26:22):
long time to see more female protagonists distinguished by their heart, courage,
and smarts instead of their cup size. But she does
admit that these female stars should not be considered less
of a role model because their conventional attractiveness is on display,
these bodies show strength, and she even mentions Michelle Obama
(26:42):
because she said, you know, it can't be a bad
thing to show a female head basically on a strong
muscular body. Yeah. And that doesn't necessarily mean, though, that
they have to model male behavior. As Elissa Rosenberg points
out at Think Progress, she says that male action heroes
(27:02):
are heightened versions of the ideals and traits to which
men are supposed to aspire. Success with getting women in
action leads does not mean just putting jamming women into
those same kinds of aspirational characters, right. She talks about
how if they're going to model some behavior, that they
(27:25):
should filmmakers, directors whoever, should acknowledge the differences in strength
and the different strengths that exist between men and women.
For instance, brains tact in maternal nature and women versus strength, bravery,
and protectiveness in men. I don't disagree, however, I just
is it maternal? The word maternal that kind of raises
(27:46):
your eyebrow. Not necessarily, but why you know, I think strength, bravery,
and protectiveness are sure not gender specific. Agreed, you know?
And and and yes, I get what what they're sayinging
as far as you know, you have like a thor
a Chris Hemsworth, you know, fighting and hammering and look
(28:07):
and gorgeous when he does it, you know, And and
so it's not that a woman can't do that. They're
arguing that, I guess women should be you know used there. Well,
it's like if speaking of Thor. Okay, this comes up
in conversations about The Avengers and Scott Johansson's role as
a black widow in that where yes, she's in fight
(28:27):
scenes and she definitely knows how to take some people
down with her brute strength, but her brute strength is
not in a Thor kind of way her number one
contribution to the group. She's able to outsmart people and
use maybe a broader array of talents. Yeah, I mean,
(28:49):
because Rosenberg does cite Sigourney Weaver's uh portrayal of that
maternal instinct. You know, it's Sigourney Weaver mother versus alien
mother going head to head and how how that maternal
force propels her to defeat the aliens and so yeah, no,
I get it, but I think that we shouldn't, you know,
(29:09):
we shouldn't stick people in those strict strict roles. Well,
and even Katie sack Off, who is a Battlestar Galactica. Alum,
she plays Starbuck. I believe. Um. She says, yeah, just
you don't just make them dudes. She was talking to
Vanity Fair about this, and she said, I'm tired of
women playing action heroes like men because they aren't men,
(29:32):
but sometimes they are written like men. I want women
who play these roles to realize that you don't have
to take away the vulnerability and the femininity. Those things
just make the character stronger. Because you take the sensibilities
of being a woman with the physical training of a man,
you'd be unstoppable. So maybe instead of like saying that
women have to use their feminine wiles and men have
(29:54):
to use their brute strength, we we can switch it
up a little exactly and everybody gets a piece of
both of those things. Well, in speaking of the feminine
wiles issue, what about the sexiness? This comes up a lot.
I mean, starting with a conversation about you know, Pam Greer,
where sex was always at the forefront of everything, and
even it was like before she could punch a guy
(30:16):
in his crotch, she would first probably have to feign
at least starting to have sex with him or something
like that. Right, And actually that's kind of what Katie
Waldman from Slate wrote. She said that women use sex
appeal as a weapon farm more than male characters do,
and that they tend to reach a point in their
missions where they must feign a desire for a powerful
(30:38):
male to get what they want. But she asks if
female action here is excel and marshaling that sexuality, does
that take away from their athletic or mental feet well?
And also as I was reading this, two words came
into my mind. James Bond. That's all the guy does
is trick women into bed and then you're shuddering with
(30:59):
the light you Craig looks so good in this suit,
but in every Double O seven film, the plot line
eventually involves him getting in bed with someone and that
and the interesting thing is that we think of James Bond,
you know, being more of a guy type of flick
(31:19):
where you know, his sexiness, though, is integral to the
whole franchise. Sure, his his sexiness, but also, I mean,
James Bond isn't doing a lot of hand to hand combat.
I mean he's not. He doesn't have a thor hammer,
He's not running around punching people in the face necessarily,
he's he's being sneaky. He's he's using his brains and
(31:40):
his technological knowledge uh and his his uh, his sex
appeal to to win these missions. While Scott Johansson, in
that conversation referenced earlier with Joss Wheden and some other folks,
was talking about how she feels like, as someone who
has played this role before, that there is too much
(32:00):
focus on sexuality. She should have funny quote saying I
think they're always fighting in a bra so while it
might be exciting for a still photo, it's ridiculous. But
I have a feeling she might have also been exasperated
at this point because on the press tour for The Avengers,
the number of questions that she got about losing weight
(32:23):
for the role, what whether she was wearing underwear in
her Cats suit, all of these absurd questions that, of
course none of the other guys were asked, and she
called the journalists out for it, which is great, But yeah,
I can imagine why she thinks something like that. She
should just probably hold up que cards at some point
(32:44):
and be like, here, just write this down. Yeah, this
is this is my my stance on that um. But
you know, I mean, say what you will, that sex
appeal helps draw quite quite a large audience. And the
thing is, at least according to this too and three
thesis that we found UM from the University of Washington,
male viewers are drawn to female action lead movies because
(33:10):
in part of the sexiness the sex factor, whereas women
tend to watch action films to see complex female characters
in complex roles. Yeah. I I I'm not a huge
action movie fan. I don't really go out of my
way to watch action movies. But in in more thinking
(33:31):
that type of action movies, I do like to see
the type of women characters that they have versus like
a romantic comedy. Sure well, and the thing is plenty
of men, like we've said, are going to see these movies.
And not to make it sound like this episode of
sponsored by Hunger Games, you know, but but of Jennifer
Lawrence would like to come to the podcast. This is
(33:53):
her invitation, um. But thirty nine of the opening weekend
audience at the Hunger Games was men, right, and they
made up of the opening weekend audience for Brave, although
I wonder if that was Dad's taking little girls either way.
Either way, it's a good thing, and they made up
(34:14):
almost half of the Snow White and the Huntsman audience.
But that might tie into to the fact that it
was starring Kristen Stewart and Charlie's Throne, two very attractive women,
and that might tie into that sex appeal aspect of
this whole conversation. And I'm trying to think of the
(34:34):
previews too. I did not see the movie, but I
remember the previews being very like action oriented, not not
any sort of like somebody falling in love with someone
else oriented, And so I wonder if that was more
of a draw too. Well, And something that's come up
to is a likability issue. We're circling back around to Haywire,
which was the action movie starring m M A Fighter
(34:56):
Gina Kurano, which tanked at the box office, and Jeff Gomez,
again speaking to having to Post, thinks that it has
to do with the trailer showing a relatively unknown actress
beating up well liked male co stars Channing Tatum and
you and McGregor. Yeah, And he says that this makes
(35:18):
her threatening to men and unsympathetic to women. I didn't
see that movie because well, I'm just so really good
at the theater. I don't know how many times in
this podcast I'm gonna say I haven't seen that movie. Um,
but I thought the trailer looked really cool. I don't.
I mean, how is it any different than what's your Name? Um?
Girl with the dragon tattoo beating up guys in that movie?
(35:39):
But yeah, I mean, I think this is not so
much an issue of not wanting to see Channing Tatum
getting his face beaten in by a woman, but the
issue of it's hard to probably make a big box
office draw starring someone unknown period. Well, I mean, and
that like aility ties into this idea coming from the
(36:03):
Washington Monthly, that men will watch these movies, but only
to a point. Uh. They wrote that women are still
only allowed to be violent within certain parameters, largely prescribed
by what men are willing to tolerate, and while what
they will tolerate on screen has changed. The writer says
women action characters violence is more sterilized and their appearance
(36:24):
is less messy. But then, to give the final word
to Josh Sweden, for whom we have Buffy the Vampire
Slayer to think, he says that actually, guys really, really
really do want to see women in action on screen? Right? Yeah?
He he admits that there's a glass ceiling cinematically. Um.
He says, there's not a major studio that is out
(36:46):
there that is trying to make a movie about a
female superhero. They'll say this is guy stuff. They'll say
women don't want to see action or men don't want
to see women, And I'm like, men don't want to
see women of us? Really do? Well? It reminds me
of the Heat that came out this summer, which was
starring Sandra Bullock and Melissa McCarthy, and it did huge
numbers at the box office, and it was the first
(37:07):
of its kind as a softer sort of action film,
but it was a buddy cop movie starring two women,
and people were initially kind of like with the preview
of Hunger Game, saying, well, this is actually gonna draw
any any money? Oh yeah, it does because we get
excited about these kinds of things. We get excited about
seeing women in new kinds of roles. And it's going
(37:31):
back to what we said earlier about uh, you know, legacy,
about when something is successful before it's more likely to
be recreated made again. More money put invested into it,
and so somebody like Melissa McCarthy, who's known to be
hilarious and she was in Bridesmaids, which was hugely successful. Also,
people are more willing to be like, Okay, she's not
(37:51):
a face that I would normally associate with this type
of movie, but you know, she's starring with Sandra Bullock,
who's you know, an incredible actors. Let me go see it. Yeah, exactly.
One thing that we haven't circled back around to is
the diversity factor, because again, it's mostly white actress after
a white actress for the most part. But in terms
of women in action films, it does seem like it's
(38:14):
not just a deja bu of two thousand one, that
there is actually progress being made in Hollywood. And I
think Hunger Games is partially to thank for that. Yeah. Absolutely,
so best of luck to Jennifer Lawrence and her crew.
I hope you bring in so many millions of dollars
catching fire. Yeah, so so that they'll just keep making
(38:36):
more amazing roles for amazing female heroin action character ladies.
Just exactly what you said, Caroline, put it on a
T shirt. So let us tell your thoughts. So, if
you're you're an action fan listening, we want to hear
from you. Mom Stuff at Discovery dot com is where
you can send your letters. You can also message us
(38:57):
on Facebook and tweet us at mom Stuff podcast asked,
and we've got a couple of letters to share with
you when we come right back from a quick break
and now back to our letters. So Lana wrote us
(39:19):
with the story of trying to not be sexy on Halloween.
She writes, I just want a costume contest for Halloween,
and I feel pretty cool. I dressed up as a
Victorian era lion tamer. I'm really into authentic costumes, so
I put this together from a lot of different places
on Etsy. I didn't just buy a typical sexy lion
(39:40):
tamer costume. I'm not very comfortable being viewed as sexy,
but I do want everyone to think that I looked
really good. I recognize it's a fine line, but I
thought I did it very well with his costume. I
was pretty much fully covered. I felt really pretty in
my costume and totally comfortable. I was no sexy lion tamer.
I was a bad asked lion tamer, but on my
(40:01):
way to the bar where the contest was being held,
A guy dressed up like a top gun pilot told me,
you sure are falling out of that Huh. I was
totally stunned. I'm an hourglass shape with a big hips
and a large bus and a tiny waist. Obviously the
course it emphasizes, but I'd worked so hard to make
sure there was no cleavage. I don't know what I'm
supposed to do about the way my poor body is shaped.
(40:23):
I had no way tried to be sexy, but on
that street corner, this random guy made me feel like
I had purchased a sexy lion Tamer costume just for him.
Was he hitting on me? Was that the intent? Who knows?
I was feeling pretty sucky about my decision to wear
a corset. I just wanted to look pretty, not sexy.
When I got to the bar, I won the costume contest,
and that made me feel way better. But now I'm
(40:46):
really thinking about next year and what a girl with
my body type is allowed to do. But well, no,
I think I think, Alana, that you need to embrace
your curvy body shape. Your body is not poor, your
body is wonderful, and you're allowed to do whatever you want. Yeah,
And a guy making comments to you on the street
(41:07):
corner is what is out of line? Not you? And
you're awesome award winning Victorian line Tamer costume which does
sound quite cool? That does. And and if you want
to send us a picture, I would love to see it. Yeah.
And by the way, if you if there's an app
for cat calling, it's called hollaback and download it and
(41:28):
it can give you some tips on and how to
deal with dudes like that sounds good to me. This
is a Facebook message from Mandy. She's responding to our
Crazy Women podcast and said that it really resonated with her.
She says, it really irks me when people label someone
else is crazy, and it absolutely seems to happen way
more to women and girls than it ever does to
(41:50):
men and boys. I didn't really fit in in the
small town I grew up in, and one of the
mean things people said about me was that I was
crazy or a psycho. I didn't do anything to deserve
such harsh treatment, and pain of that still sticks with
me to this day, considering at the time that I
was going through such an anxiety disorder brought on by
undiagnosed obsessive compulsive disorder, being called crazy and wondering if
it was true made for some pretty miserable times in
(42:12):
my life. Now I'm a successful woman who runs around
business and is raising a young family. Through hard work
and behavior cognitive therapy as well as medication, I'm able
to live a life mostly free of o c D
and the symptoms of it, such as anxiety and depression.
I used to hide the emotional and mental problems I've
been through in my life, but now I am very
open and honest about it and hopes that I break
down this crazy stigma. And I'm always floored by the
(42:35):
amount of people, especially women, who have had similar experiences
and similar problems as me, but we're too afraid to
tell anyone or seek help for fear of being labeled. Crazy.
Words can hurt and do a lot of damage, and
crazy is no exception. So thank you so much Mandy
for sharing your story. I think it's very enlightening and
I hope uh some listeners out there take it to heart. Yeah,
(42:56):
and thanks to everyone who's written in mom Stuff. Discovery
dot Com is our email dress, so you can also
message us on Facebook, follow us on Twitter at mom
Stuff Podcast. You can also find us on Instagram at
stuff mom Never Told You and on Tumbler as well.
It's stuff I'm Never told You dot tumbler dot com.
And last, but certainly not least, we have a YouTube
channel and you should check it out. It's YouTube dot com,
(43:17):
slash stuff mom Never Told You, and don't forget to
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