September 29, 2018 • 33 mins
The 8th amendment banning abortion in the Republic of Ireland has been formally repealed. A & B look back at the history leading up to this point in this classic episode.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Bridget and this is Annie, and you're
listening to stuff Mom never told you. Now today we
have an update for you on something that we unpacked
a few months ago, and that is abortion in Ireland.
(00:27):
The Eighth Amendment, which effectively banned abortion in the Republic
of Ireland, has been formally repealed. Who in official Yeah.
Irish President Michael D. Higgins signed the Abortion ref Friendum
Bill into law on Tuesday. With the repeal of the
Eighth the Irish government's recommendation is that women will be
able to access a termination within the first twelve weeks
(00:49):
of their pregnancy. This is really a milestone for Ireland.
And I remember watching the election results sort of on
pins and needles. This has really been a long, hard,
bad for folks in Ireland, and I remember, you know,
hearing from a lot of the Semanti community who had
got home to vote to make their voices heard. So
I'm really thrilled that this is finally something that has happened,
(01:10):
and I hope that you'll enjoy this episode that really
chronicles how we got here, So please enjoy. Hey, this
is Bridget and this is Annie, and you're listening to
stuff Mom never told you. Now today we actually have
(01:37):
some good news. Yeah, good news. Hey you. I feel
like on the show so often we're talking about complete bummers. Yes,
this is true. Um, this episode will have some bummers,
but it's not a complete bummer and has a bit
of a happy ending, which is that Ireland last month
voted to end the country's ban on abortion. Yes, that
(01:58):
is very good news and it is a very long
time coming. And today we just wanted to talk a
little bit about the history of Ireland's abortion laws and
how we got to where we are today. Yes, because
terminating at pregnancy has been a crime in Ireland since
eighteen sixty one. That the debate really got started in
the nineteen seventies, when abortion laws and attitudes were changing
(02:18):
in many places. Exactly, the UK legalized abortion up to
twenty eight weeks in nineteen sixty seven, and here in
the United States, the Supreme Court essentially legalized abortion in
nineteen seventy three with Brow v. Wade. So basically, conservative
politicians and the Catholic Church were pretty alarmed by this
trend and they wanted to preempt any attempt to loosen
the Irish band on abortion, so they launched an active
(02:40):
campaign to introduce a constitutional amendment, which ended with a
referendum in nineteen eighty three. Sixty seven percent of Irish
voters voted for the Eighth Amendment, which basically banned abortion right.
The Eighth Amendment says the State acknowledges the right to
life of the unborn and with due regard to the
equal right to the life of the mother, garan tease
in its laws to respect and as far as practicable
(03:03):
by its laws, to defend and vindicate that right. This
law basically meant that you couldn't get an abortion in Ireland,
even in cases of vapor incest, and in some cases
even if it meant that you would die. Yeah, it
was fairly strict. One of the big flashpoints on the
issue in Ireland happened in with the case of x
(03:24):
X was an anonymous fourteen year old girl who, after
being raped, became pregnant. Her family planned to have her
travels with the UK to get an abortion, only to
find out that doing so was against the law. Ireland's
Attorney General blocked her traveling abroad through an injunction. Basically,
this girl was super depressed, he became suicidal and her
case really kind of became a flashpoint. It went to
(03:45):
the Supreme Court, which lifted the injunction and ruled that
abortions could take place if there was a real risk
to the life of the mother, including from suicide. But
since then, several attempts to remove suicide as grounds for abortion,
including a referendum into that and to have failed, but
that Supreme Court's ruling did not make it into legislation
for another twenty years. Wow. The this case led to
(04:09):
some changes. The government had a referendum on three questions,
whether suicide should be removed as grounds for abortion, whether
Irish people had a right to travel for abortion care,
and whether information about abortion should be available in Ireland.
The Irish voted to keep suicide as a legitimate reason
that abortion be permitted, and voted for the right to
(04:29):
travel and information. Two referendums in November of n made
it legal to travel abroad to seek abortions. Six or
two four percent of voters voted for this, and to
share information about foreign abortion services within Ireland. Nine women
and girls leave Ireland every day to get abortion services. Well,
(04:50):
I mean, on the one hand, it's good that people
had the ability to go, you know, to the UK
to get an abortion that they needed it. But that's
not accessible and it's expensive and not everybody can make
that journey. And so if the only way that you
have to get an abortion in Ireland is to spend
a lot of money to go to a different place
(05:11):
to get it, it's not really accessible. And if your
life depends on getting an abortion, that really could be
a death sentence. Absolutely. More than one seventy thousand women
and girls have traveled to another country for an abortion
since nineteen and the vast majority went to Britain, while
a smaller number went to the Netherlands. Getting the boat
is expensive and laborious and yeah, inaccessible. The Irish have
(05:35):
all kinds of euphemisms really in the country to get
an abortion, like getting the boat or simply traveling, but
it definitely hits lower income people harder. I mean, that's
a very expensive, yeah, And I think it's important to
point out that we're not just talking about Ireland. Here
in the United States, there are places where you have
(05:55):
to make a very expensive and very laborious journey to
get an abortion, and a pregnant person who lives in
rapid city South Dakota, for instance, would have to drive
three hundred and eighteen miles to reach Billings, Montana to
get an abortion. That was that's the nearest facility that
provides abortion services. And so we were talking about it
in regards to Ireland, but here in the United States
(06:17):
there are places where it is also very inaccessible, and
it is also a very expensive journey, particularly for those
who don't have access or are low income or otherwise marginalized. Absolutely,
and we also have some of you may have seen
in the news because it's kind of been making the
news a lot lately, that we have hospitals that are
run by Catholicism, like Catholic hospitals, but they're not outwardly
(06:40):
there's sort of no signage to saying that. And and
a lot of times if you're an emergency situation, and
here we're talking particularly about if you're pregnant and you're
taken in an ambulance of the nearest hospital, you might
not know and then you get there and they will
not allow you have an abortion if you're like having
a miscarriage or any thing like that. And it's it's
(07:01):
led to I think some serious health problems and I
believe death as well. Yeah, according to rewire. New reporting
that just came out literally an hour ago. About one
in six women in the United States name a Catholic
facility as their go to hospital for reproductive healthcare, but
more than a third of these women are unaware that
their hospital is Catholic, according to a survey reviewing an
(07:22):
information gap about Catholic hospitals. And so you're right. So
I want to make sure it's clear that we all
have a long way to go on this issue, and
that Ireland, the United States, this is stuff that's happening
that we're all sort of dealing with. We have to
get better because people's lives are on the line. Yeah. Absolutely.
In British Vogue, Irish journalist Lynn i'nwright imagined what could
(07:42):
have happened to her if her unwanted pregnancy had happened
back home in Ireland instead of in London. She writes,
perhaps I would have been one of them, making the
same surreptitious arrangements, booking days off work, telling the necessary
FIBs to employers and family, boarding a cheap Ryan Air
flight at six am as if going on holiday, and
the hundreds of pounds necessary to pay a private clinic
in Liverpool or London later my abortion fund not stretching
(08:05):
to a hotel room I would bleed and sweat, and
a cheap hostel many many miles from home. And I
think she really captures what this situation looked like for
so many Irish women. And those are the lucky ones,
the ones who could afford to make that journey. Yeah,
and it's already a difficult situation to be in, and
(08:26):
then to be in the hotel, probably by yourself after
in pain. Miserable just expounds on how difficult it already is.
It doesn't need to be that miserable. It shouldn't be
that miserable. If there are things we can do to improve,
it should If you listen to the episode of the
Unladylike podcast, their first episode is about paying for abortions
(08:49):
and one of the women they talked to in the episode,
she basically had like the nicest abortion you know ever
was in a private facility and you know, there was
no protesters outside. It was a very you know, she
went into a pretty nondescript office. And for every smooth
abortion out there that goes well, and you know, it's
just go to a place and you have an appointment
(09:10):
and it's fine, it's done, you pay for it done.
There are people out there who have the worst experience
where it's you know, they have to scramble to find
money and they you know, it's a medical procedure and
it should be a smooth experience for everyone. Everyone deserves
to have their medical carapy something that is smooth, because
if you need medical services, are already probably stressed out enough.
And just like any other medical service, if it's within
(09:33):
our power to make it smooth for the people who
are undergoing it, we should be. It should be smooth
for everybody absolutely, Like I remember listening to that on
a lady like episode of thinking, like anybody who has
to get an abortion, I want them to have an
experience like that where it's not terrible. Yeah. And going
back to the Catholic Church, they have a lot to
do with this this situation in Ireland from Rewire, the
(09:55):
Catholic Church has been deeply intertwined with the Irish state
from its founding when in separating the English colonial control,
Ireland sought a national identity that was different, celebrating the
Catholicism that had been marginalized under British rule. Today, though
its influence has diminished, it controls primary schools and hospitals
across the country, and though it has played a smaller
(10:15):
role in the repeal campaign, Healy wrote, behind the scenes,
the Church are backing the know in a major way.
But the church's reputation was damaged by revelations around the
Magdalene Laundries, state funded church run institutions where girls were
locked away and put to unpaid labor for a range
of sins that often include sexual behavior and unwed pregnancy.
That reputation was further hurt by the discovery in twenty
(10:38):
seventeen of a mass grave of children at the Mother
and Baby Home at Tuam, where unwed mothers had given birth. Yikes,
that's horrifying. But I think it also really goes to
underscore how tight of a hold the Catholic Church has
on Ireland culturally, politically all of that. Those sentiments run
(10:59):
so deep that is really seems to dictate how folks
feel about this issue for a very long time. Yeah,
this about brings us to another flashpoint in this debate.
But first we're gonna take a quick break for word
from our sponsor. Uh m hm, and we're back. Thank
(11:24):
you sponsor. So in two thousand and twelve we come
to another kind of touched on a big event in
this debate, and that is with m Savitza Pravine hal
A Peta Ar Savita was a dentist who was born
in India and she moved to Ireland in two thousand
and eight and she settled in Galaway with her husband Pravine.
(11:45):
On October one, two thousand and twelve, she went to
University Hospital, Galway after complaining of back pain and eventually
suffered a miscarriage at seventeen weeks. Her miscarriage went on
for days, but saying they were bound by Irish abortion law,
hospital staff would not provide any medical aide to speed.
At the end of her pregnancy, a midwife manager told
(12:06):
her she couldn't terminate her pregnancy quote because Ireland it's
a Catholic country. Yeah, And according to the coroner, the
words quote went around the world and I would agree
with that. Yeah. This sort of became a galvanizing moment,
particularly that comment that the midwife manager made that Ireland
is a Catholic country. It's interesting they've identified the woman
(12:28):
who said that, and she admits saying and she feels
bad about saying it, But I don't think that she
knew that her comments would become this flashpoint for getting
people so angry and so upset about this issue that
it would ultimately spark this kind of massive change. Oh yeah,
I would bet she was quite surprised that it took off.
(12:49):
I'm sure to her it was probably like just fat
kind of Yeah, that's what she says. They interviewed her
and she said that she was just trying to explain,
you know, the why of this abortion law. And she
she's right that that was that was the case. But
using that as a basically as the explanation for why
someone is going to die is just so deeply, deeply,
(13:10):
deeply upsetting. Another thing to note about sevida situation is
that doctors told her that her miscarriage was inevitable and
she was still denied an abortion. There was no saving
this pregnancy, she was going to lose that pregnancy irregardless,
and they still let her die. Yeah, which I find,
I mean hard for me to think of a way
(13:35):
to defend that, and especially like, well, we're just a
Catholic country, like I suppose that goes to show how
acceptable we find or at least in some religions, were
able to justify the death of the woman rather than
provide them this service that has been deemed immoral. Right.
And she died a painful, agonizing long and probably emotionally,
(13:59):
I mean she she died at really really unimaginably cruel
death on all fronts, emotionally, mentally, physically, on all fronts.
Her death was unimaginably cruel. Yeah. A report by the
Health Service Executive found later that there had been quote
an over emphasis by hospital staff on the welfare of
(14:20):
Mrs Hall, a pan of ours unviable fetus, and under
emphasis on her deteriorating health and they could it sound
like they could have saved her. Yeah, And if you know,
if the miscarriage is inevitable, what are you doing right, Like, like,
who are you helping no one? You're killing someone. You're
killing someone, yeah, and you're making them die a agonizing death.
(14:45):
Like it just just so awful, It just just so awful.
As awful as this was, her death became a symbol,
sparking protests and vigils all across Ireland. Campaigners began urging
that folks remember Sevita and calling for chain as to
ireland strict abortion laws. Here's Ruth Coppinger, an Irish Solidarity
People before Profit politicians, speaking at a rally to remember
(15:08):
Cevida friends. We're here today in huge numbers to show
usinate said our solidarity with the family on the friends
of Sevisa and we want to send a message to
her family if you have huge support here in Ireland,
(15:28):
absolutely massive support, and that pretty much brings us to
where we're at today. You know, her tragic death was
really this flashpoint for enough outrage and anger and justified
(15:49):
rage to coalesce to get someplace on this issue. I
think so many women saw this story and thought that
could be me, that could be my kid. I don't
want to live in an Ireland where that happens for
no reason. Yeah, and so people came together and they
made a change, and we're gonna talk more about that,
(16:11):
but first we're gonna take one more quick break for
a word from our sponsor m HM, and we're back,
Thank you sponsor. Yeah. So, last month, Ireland held a
vote to repeal the Eighth Amendment. Thousands of Irish immigrants
(16:33):
flew from all over the world back to Ireland to vote,
including a few smentthy listeners. That's right. Shout out to
Instagram user j O Grady who told me that she
came all the way from Boston to Ireland to vote yes,
so you go. Good for you. And this is the
stuff that like warms my organizer heart. People getting together
(16:54):
and saying, hey, all of y'all young people who left
Ireland for other places, we need you to if you
can do it, come back vote. Help be the force
that pushes the needle on this issue. Yeah. And they
shared their journeys using the hashtag home to Vote, and
if you scrolled that hashtag, there were so many brilliant
(17:15):
stories of people traveling from far and wide about why
they were doing it. Some people said things like oh,
I didn't want this could be me. Some people expressed
interest in moving back to Ireland one day, but they
didn't want to live in Ireland where basic healthcare was
just this inaccessible, and really it was. It was quite
a beautiful sort of touching thing. Here's the London Irish
Abortion Rights campaign video urging young Irish people to come
(17:38):
home to vote. If you're an Irish citizen and I've
lived in Ireland in the past eighteen months, wherever you
are in the world right now, you may be eligible
to vote. Three years ago, young Irish people traveled from
all over the planet to make Ireland a more equal place.
We need you again. On the twenty May. We're getting
a once in a generation chance to make Ireland a safer,
fair place for women. Let's do it together. Come home
(18:01):
to vote yes to repeal the Eighth Amendment. Together Together,
Together together, Kayla, together together. Wonderful. Yeah, and it is.
I think it's the organizer in me, applods Eat and
every one of those those Irish folks who came back
to vote, because you know that's no easy feet, you know,
(18:22):
flying from Boston, l A, wherever to Ireland to vote,
Like not everybody can do that, but I think it again,
it goes to underscore this idea that if you have
the ability, you have the money, you can get the
time off whatever to make that trip you It's important.
And I remember seeing someone sign when I was looking
through the hashtag. The sign said, I'm making this journey
so the women who can't don't have to, So they
(18:44):
don't want to get on that boat and they don't
want to scrape together that money or stay in that
hostels like I can, I can make this journey so
that other women don't have to. Yeah, and um some
of the women are um assuming women. Some of the
people returned home. They or flights paid for by generous
strangers in the Abroad for Yes Facebook group with over
(19:04):
three thousand, eight hundred members willing to sponsor flights, which
is also very lovely. It is lovely, you know in
that expression, feminism isn't something you are, it's something that
you do. That's That's what this is to me in
a kind of way. It's putting your money where your
mouth is and doing that thing. Whether it's paying for
somebody else's flight because you can't vote in Ireland, or
(19:25):
it's it's righting together the money and taking the time
off work and going home to Ireland to vote. I
think it's just it's just really powerful. It's really something.
Sevida's parents made a video before the vote urging Irish
voters to vote yes and remember his daughter, and after
the vote he thanked the people of Ireland for really
coming out in droves and supporting the tragic loss of
(19:48):
his daughter, and I'm keeping that in mind at the polls.
He said he was quote very happy at the result
of Ireland's referendum. We've got justice for Sevita and what
happened to her will not happen to any other family.
Right now, I have no words to express my gratitude
to the people of Ireland at this historic moment. In
many Irish people similarly went home to vote to pass
(20:09):
marriage equality, and you know, while pushes like home to
vote and urging folks to come home and make their
voices heard if they can are obviously awesome. Connor O'Neil,
the co founder of We're Coming Back, a campaign for
emigrant voting rights, points out at The Irish Times that
Irish citizens shouldn't actually have to do this. They shouldn't
have to go all the way back to Ireland just
(20:31):
to make their voice heard. He writes, citizens shouldn't need
to do this. It's expensive, exclusionary, and for every incredible
home to voter, someone couldn't travel. Most countries recognize this,
but Ireland remains one of the few democracies with no
facility for overseas voting, a legacy of our high rates
of emigration and the failure of successive governments to put
(20:51):
an effective system in place. Our rules are some of
the most restrictive in the world. No postal facility exists,
and under the Electoral Acts, returning to vote beyond a
meager eighteen months abroad is a crime punishable up to
two years imprisonment. Many voters vote have known this on
a three year working visa. Surely the ballots waiting at
home don't come with criminal charges. Given the landslide result,
(21:13):
even the wildest estimates of how many returned couldn't have
impacted the outcome. But the absurd contradiction remains. We cheer
these voters home, but our laws treat them as criminals. Yeah,
it should not be that difficult as a citizen to
vote in your countries and things impacting your country in
a country that you have citizenship in. But nonetheless yea,
(21:39):
the campaign was successful. Free wire News quotes one longtime campaigner,
zy Kankazi. One of the things in this campaign is
that women have talked about that. Women have kept that
silent for years and have talked to their friends and
family about that and about why the law needs to change.
This whole silent underground campaign that is going on with
women who are talking about their personal experiences under the
(21:59):
law and not just of abortion, because the Eighth Amendment
also affects the care of women in every pregnancy. Absolutely correct.
Something I love about Izzy kamakazees comments here is that
they really help us understand that the Eighth Amendment was
obviously about access to abortion, but also even if you
are someone who is carrying a pregnancy to term, you
are so impacted by this legislation. It's not just for
(22:21):
people who are seeking abortions or to terminate a pregnancy.
Take for instance, the case of Mother B. In Mother
B wanted to give worth vaginally, but she was shocked
when the Health Service Executive or the h s E,
applied to the High Court to force her to have
a cesarean section against her will to vindicate the right
to life of her unborn child. They sought permission to
(22:42):
keep Mother B from leaving the hospital and to enlist
police to arrest her if she did. The fetus was
given its own attorney. There was a court injunction and
ultimately the court allowed her to give worth vaginally. But
this just goes to show this legislation is obviously about abortion,
but anybody who wants the reproductive rights respected, whether it
(23:02):
is the right to carry your pregnancy to term the
way that you want, or the right to not do so.
Anybody along that spectrum has a steak in this conversation. Absolutely,
and ultimately the yes vote did win violence side of
sixty six point four percent of voters voting to repeal
(23:22):
the amendments. So it looks like a lot of women
or I keep the saving women, but this is an
issue that impacts everybody. Yeah, and I mean women aren't
the only folks who get pregnant. We need to say that,
you know, anybody with a uterus, anybody with a steak
and health care and reproductive rights, they understood what you
were saying, Bridget that it is not just a portion.
(23:43):
This impacts so much, so much more. And I'm I'm
very very happy that it was the eighth was repealed.
I am too. So you might be asking what happens now, Well,
in the short term, nothing, nothing will change immediately, According
(24:04):
to Wendy Lyon, a lawyer and pro choice organizer based
in Ireland, because the anti choice law is still on
the books, we're pretty much guaranteed that there's gonna be
some attempt to challenge it. They've done this with pretty
much every referendum that has advocated a liberal agenda. As
she says, they failed every time, but they will try
it again. And Dublin City Councilor Ellis Ryan points out
that another important aspect of this conversation going forward is
(24:27):
how abortion access will be handled in Ireland. It is
not enough for it to be legal, It also has
to be accessible and really the only way that you
can do that is through a public health service. That
is going to be the next battle for socialist campaigners
pro choice campaigners is how can we ensure that this
is not yet another service that is outsourced to a
private company that doesn't have women's best interests at heart.
(24:47):
And I think that really is so true that it's
not enough for this to just be legal, it has
to also be accessible, right otherwise what's the point? Yeah, exactly,
And going back to the US for a second. Abortion
access here remains under attack and campaigners are looking to
Ireland as a beacon of light. In Rhode Island, campaigners
are pushing for the Reprojective Healthcare Act the r h
(25:09):
A and pointing to Ireland's recent landslide vote to legalize
abortion care as an example to follow. So this is
having an impact outside of Ireland as well. That's always
kind of a kind of comforting reminder. Yeah, we're this
is global, We're all in this together. This is this
is a global fight. In Rhode Island right now, if
Roe v. Wade were overturned, which I know that to
(25:31):
some of you that might sound unthinkable, but anti choice
politicians are waging attacks on it every day in so
many different ways. If it were overturned in Rhode Island,
abortion will be illegal unless the Reproductive Healthcare Act, which
right now is stuck on committee, was passed. The pro
choice legislation would codify Roe v. Wade protections into state law.
(25:51):
And I think why Rhode Island is looking to Ireland,
it's because Rhode Island is the most heavily Catholic state
in the United States, and so a lot of similarly
to Ireland might think, oh, our state is just so
culturally and politically gripped by the Catholic Church that this
thing will never pass. But Ireland shows us that that's
(26:12):
not necessarily true. Right. I did not know that about
Rhode Islands. Hillary Levy Friedman, president of the Rhode Island
chapter of the National Organization for Women, said the student
is looking towards Ireland as a model that heavily Catholic
cultures can still move the needle on reproductive rights. Quote.
One of the biggest issues raised in opposition to the
Reproductive Health Care Act in Rhode Island is that this
(26:34):
is the most Catholic state in America. That said, Ireland,
a nation founded on the basis of Catholicism, has just
made abortion legal, so clearly it can be done. It
can be done. It was done. Yes, y'all did it.
And again it makes me so sad that it took
a tragedy of someone dying and needless and needless and painful,
(26:54):
unacceptable death to get where we are. But I'm just
so happy that voters in Ireland remembered Cevita. Yes and
um virget and I were in the studio when they
that news. We got the news about it. We were
very excited. I was checking checking my phone every five minutes.
I had a feeling it was going to pay. I
(27:16):
had a feeling it was going to pass by a landslide.
I did not express those feelings. I learned from a
certain election that you probably don't want to get to
ahead of yourself about verbalizing your thoughts on how an
election is going to go. But I was pretty confident
it was going to be a landslide. I didn't want
to say anything, but it was very confident. Yes, and
(27:37):
we are happy that that turned out to be the case.
So that's that's what we have to say. Uh, please
Irish anyone, any Irish listeners out there, We'd love to
hear from you, and not just because we love your accents, no,
because we would be imagining the accent in our heads.
Since generally there is no audio component of mail or
(27:59):
social media, you can do an attachment. Yes, sink big Annie.
I'm still stuck in my ways of text and behind
the times and the times. But speaking of this brings
us to listener mail. Our first letter letter is from Renee. Hey, ladies,
(28:25):
I love your show and recently listened to the Action
Figures episode followed by the gender reveal episode, and I
thought I would write in I'm thirty two and identify
myself proudly as a nerd. I think that has made
me seek out the clothes I are my daughter Jimma
want no matter the department label. But it's very frustrating
that not only do girls not always get the cool,
nerdy things we love, but the sizes are so different
(28:46):
in each department. I recently went through her clothes and everything,
and a five T from the girl's department was too small,
both short and tight, but her stuff from the boy
section still had room to grow. I also have issues
about how a lot of kids clothing lines set shualized
girls from birth with tighter, shorter clothes, even bikinis for infants.
Not only is that disgusting, but not every child is
(29:06):
built alike. So the sorts you think are okay length
on your fin athletic toddler make my thicker built big
booty one look not great to put it nicely from birth,
I've just hearned space science and several fandoms of clothing.
If I saw something I liked, we bought it. If
she wanted a Star Wars shirt like Daddy, I found
her one Jim and will be four on Saturday, and
she has been telling us for over a years she
wants to be an astronaut when she goes up. I
(29:29):
see a definite connection and the clothes that she wears
in her attitude towards what are typically labeled boy She
also loves fluffy cats and pink, but will argue the
fact she knows more about why the sun shines with you.
Raising a girl is so much fun, But we make
a decided effort in her home to literally encourage her
to be whatever she wants, not just what society thinks
she should be. I'm continuing to foster her dreams with toys.
(29:50):
For a birthday this year, she'll be getting the new
American Girl Doll Luciana, who also wants to be an
astronaut when she grows up. I knew that toys mattered,
but your show finally reinforced that for me. I've attached
pictures of the past four years of her outfits below
because I'm totally biased. She's adorable. She was a rock
star astronaut for Halloween, so I thought the bowie makeup
(30:10):
was appropriate. Cute. Happy birthday, Gemma, so cute. I know
a rock star astronauts going to argue with you about
the sunshine, ng this is my time. I want to
make this kid. It sounds like she sounds like a
rad kid. She do. I mean, she sounds really cool
and yeah, I'm happy that she has such an awesome mom.
(30:33):
Yeah yea. Our next email is from Quentin. Quentin writes,
I just wanted to reach out to you both. Following
the Female Action Figures podcast. I especially identified with the
missed potential due to marketing across the gender boundary. But
from the other direction, My family and I are major
Disney fans, and my personal favorite character is tinker Bell.
Tinker Bell is awesome by the way. Disney launched the
(30:54):
Disney Fairies line back into two thousand five with toys, apparel,
and movies. In this franchise, tinker Bell solved her problems
through tinkering, which basically means building and engineering. I saw
her as an early stem role model for young kids,
and especially young girls. As an engineer, I fell in
love with the character. In the two thousand nine direct
to home film tinker Bell and the Lost Treasure, she
(31:14):
built a hot air balloon from a found item and
even had her own adventuring outfit. They've since phased out
this line, which I think is a missed opportunity. Every
visit to the Disney Store or Disney Parks, I'm always
on the lookout for tinker Bell merchandise. A few years back,
I did come across a great dark blue hoodie with
a nice Tinkerball design on the back, and I wore
the heck out of it, but I've never found anything
(31:35):
like it. Since everything is strongly marketed at girls and women,
I guess in their minds, guys can't be fans of
a character or a Disney princess. As you discussed in
the podcast, they really seem to be missing an opportunity
if they just included a few more gender neutral options
for their characters. This applies not only to making action
figures for girls, but opening up some of their other
great characters for guys as well. Quentin, I cannot agree more.
(31:58):
I really want to see this hoodie. I want to
see all the tinker Bell items that you've amasked and
I didn't. It didn't even occur to me that tinker
Bell was this like mini engineer, fairy tinkering. No, it
didn't to me either, and I'm so glad to know that.
But absolutely, like, I'm all for It's okay if you wanna,
you can play whatever with whatever toys you want. We
(32:19):
don't have to say there for ex gender or ex gender.
So yeah, I'm all about all about toys for everybody
here here. Yeah, So thank you to both of them
for writing. Thanks as always to our producers, Dylan Fagan
and Kathleen Willian. If you would like to write toys,
you can. Our email is mom Stuff at how Stuff
(32:41):
works dot com, and you can find is on social
Can't you bridget You Sure can, or on Twitter at
mom Stuff Podcast and on Instagram at Stuff Mom Never
told You
Hey, this is Bridget and this is Annie, and you're
listening to stuff Mom never told you. Now today we
have an update for you on something that we unpacked
a few months ago, and that is abortion in Ireland.
(00:27):
The Eighth Amendment, which effectively banned abortion in the Republic
of Ireland, has been formally repealed. Who in official Yeah.
Irish President Michael D. Higgins signed the Abortion ref Friendum
Bill into law on Tuesday. With the repeal of the
Eighth the Irish government's recommendation is that women will be
able to access a termination within the first twelve weeks
(00:49):
of their pregnancy. This is really a milestone for Ireland.
And I remember watching the election results sort of on
pins and needles. This has really been a long, hard,
bad for folks in Ireland, and I remember, you know,
hearing from a lot of the Semanti community who had
got home to vote to make their voices heard. So
I'm really thrilled that this is finally something that has happened,
(01:10):
and I hope that you'll enjoy this episode that really
chronicles how we got here, So please enjoy. Hey, this
is Bridget and this is Annie, and you're listening to
stuff Mom never told you. Now today we actually have
(01:37):
some good news. Yeah, good news. Hey you. I feel
like on the show so often we're talking about complete bummers. Yes,
this is true. Um, this episode will have some bummers,
but it's not a complete bummer and has a bit
of a happy ending, which is that Ireland last month
voted to end the country's ban on abortion. Yes, that
(01:58):
is very good news and it is a very long
time coming. And today we just wanted to talk a
little bit about the history of Ireland's abortion laws and
how we got to where we are today. Yes, because
terminating at pregnancy has been a crime in Ireland since
eighteen sixty one. That the debate really got started in
the nineteen seventies, when abortion laws and attitudes were changing
(02:18):
in many places. Exactly, the UK legalized abortion up to
twenty eight weeks in nineteen sixty seven, and here in
the United States, the Supreme Court essentially legalized abortion in
nineteen seventy three with Brow v. Wade. So basically, conservative
politicians and the Catholic Church were pretty alarmed by this
trend and they wanted to preempt any attempt to loosen
the Irish band on abortion, so they launched an active
(02:40):
campaign to introduce a constitutional amendment, which ended with a
referendum in nineteen eighty three. Sixty seven percent of Irish
voters voted for the Eighth Amendment, which basically banned abortion right.
The Eighth Amendment says the State acknowledges the right to
life of the unborn and with due regard to the
equal right to the life of the mother, garan tease
in its laws to respect and as far as practicable
(03:03):
by its laws, to defend and vindicate that right. This
law basically meant that you couldn't get an abortion in Ireland,
even in cases of vapor incest, and in some cases
even if it meant that you would die. Yeah, it
was fairly strict. One of the big flashpoints on the
issue in Ireland happened in with the case of x
(03:24):
X was an anonymous fourteen year old girl who, after
being raped, became pregnant. Her family planned to have her
travels with the UK to get an abortion, only to
find out that doing so was against the law. Ireland's
Attorney General blocked her traveling abroad through an injunction. Basically,
this girl was super depressed, he became suicidal and her
case really kind of became a flashpoint. It went to
(03:45):
the Supreme Court, which lifted the injunction and ruled that
abortions could take place if there was a real risk
to the life of the mother, including from suicide. But
since then, several attempts to remove suicide as grounds for abortion,
including a referendum into that and to have failed, but
that Supreme Court's ruling did not make it into legislation
for another twenty years. Wow. The this case led to
(04:09):
some changes. The government had a referendum on three questions,
whether suicide should be removed as grounds for abortion, whether
Irish people had a right to travel for abortion care,
and whether information about abortion should be available in Ireland.
The Irish voted to keep suicide as a legitimate reason
that abortion be permitted, and voted for the right to
(04:29):
travel and information. Two referendums in November of n made
it legal to travel abroad to seek abortions. Six or
two four percent of voters voted for this, and to
share information about foreign abortion services within Ireland. Nine women
and girls leave Ireland every day to get abortion services. Well,
(04:50):
I mean, on the one hand, it's good that people
had the ability to go, you know, to the UK
to get an abortion that they needed it. But that's
not accessible and it's expensive and not everybody can make
that journey. And so if the only way that you
have to get an abortion in Ireland is to spend
a lot of money to go to a different place
(05:11):
to get it, it's not really accessible. And if your
life depends on getting an abortion, that really could be
a death sentence. Absolutely. More than one seventy thousand women
and girls have traveled to another country for an abortion
since nineteen and the vast majority went to Britain, while
a smaller number went to the Netherlands. Getting the boat
is expensive and laborious and yeah, inaccessible. The Irish have
(05:35):
all kinds of euphemisms really in the country to get
an abortion, like getting the boat or simply traveling, but
it definitely hits lower income people harder. I mean, that's
a very expensive, yeah, And I think it's important to
point out that we're not just talking about Ireland. Here
in the United States, there are places where you have
(05:55):
to make a very expensive and very laborious journey to
get an abortion, and a pregnant person who lives in
rapid city South Dakota, for instance, would have to drive
three hundred and eighteen miles to reach Billings, Montana to
get an abortion. That was that's the nearest facility that
provides abortion services. And so we were talking about it
in regards to Ireland, but here in the United States
(06:17):
there are places where it is also very inaccessible, and
it is also a very expensive journey, particularly for those
who don't have access or are low income or otherwise marginalized. Absolutely,
and we also have some of you may have seen
in the news because it's kind of been making the
news a lot lately, that we have hospitals that are
run by Catholicism, like Catholic hospitals, but they're not outwardly
(06:40):
there's sort of no signage to saying that. And and
a lot of times if you're an emergency situation, and
here we're talking particularly about if you're pregnant and you're
taken in an ambulance of the nearest hospital, you might
not know and then you get there and they will
not allow you have an abortion if you're like having
a miscarriage or any thing like that. And it's it's
(07:01):
led to I think some serious health problems and I
believe death as well. Yeah, according to rewire. New reporting
that just came out literally an hour ago. About one
in six women in the United States name a Catholic
facility as their go to hospital for reproductive healthcare, but
more than a third of these women are unaware that
their hospital is Catholic, according to a survey reviewing an
(07:22):
information gap about Catholic hospitals. And so you're right. So
I want to make sure it's clear that we all
have a long way to go on this issue, and
that Ireland, the United States, this is stuff that's happening
that we're all sort of dealing with. We have to
get better because people's lives are on the line. Yeah. Absolutely.
In British Vogue, Irish journalist Lynn i'nwright imagined what could
(07:42):
have happened to her if her unwanted pregnancy had happened
back home in Ireland instead of in London. She writes,
perhaps I would have been one of them, making the
same surreptitious arrangements, booking days off work, telling the necessary
FIBs to employers and family, boarding a cheap Ryan Air
flight at six am as if going on holiday, and
the hundreds of pounds necessary to pay a private clinic
in Liverpool or London later my abortion fund not stretching
(08:05):
to a hotel room I would bleed and sweat, and
a cheap hostel many many miles from home. And I
think she really captures what this situation looked like for
so many Irish women. And those are the lucky ones,
the ones who could afford to make that journey. Yeah,
and it's already a difficult situation to be in, and
(08:26):
then to be in the hotel, probably by yourself after
in pain. Miserable just expounds on how difficult it already is.
It doesn't need to be that miserable. It shouldn't be
that miserable. If there are things we can do to improve,
it should If you listen to the episode of the
Unladylike podcast, their first episode is about paying for abortions
(08:49):
and one of the women they talked to in the episode,
she basically had like the nicest abortion you know ever
was in a private facility and you know, there was
no protesters outside. It was a very you know, she
went into a pretty nondescript office. And for every smooth
abortion out there that goes well, and you know, it's
just go to a place and you have an appointment
(09:10):
and it's fine, it's done, you pay for it done.
There are people out there who have the worst experience
where it's you know, they have to scramble to find
money and they you know, it's a medical procedure and
it should be a smooth experience for everyone. Everyone deserves
to have their medical carapy something that is smooth, because
if you need medical services, are already probably stressed out enough.
And just like any other medical service, if it's within
(09:33):
our power to make it smooth for the people who
are undergoing it, we should be. It should be smooth
for everybody absolutely, Like I remember listening to that on
a lady like episode of thinking, like anybody who has
to get an abortion, I want them to have an
experience like that where it's not terrible. Yeah. And going
back to the Catholic Church, they have a lot to
do with this this situation in Ireland from Rewire, the
(09:55):
Catholic Church has been deeply intertwined with the Irish state
from its founding when in separating the English colonial control,
Ireland sought a national identity that was different, celebrating the
Catholicism that had been marginalized under British rule. Today, though
its influence has diminished, it controls primary schools and hospitals
across the country, and though it has played a smaller
(10:15):
role in the repeal campaign, Healy wrote, behind the scenes,
the Church are backing the know in a major way.
But the church's reputation was damaged by revelations around the
Magdalene Laundries, state funded church run institutions where girls were
locked away and put to unpaid labor for a range
of sins that often include sexual behavior and unwed pregnancy.
That reputation was further hurt by the discovery in twenty
(10:38):
seventeen of a mass grave of children at the Mother
and Baby Home at Tuam, where unwed mothers had given birth. Yikes,
that's horrifying. But I think it also really goes to
underscore how tight of a hold the Catholic Church has
on Ireland culturally, politically all of that. Those sentiments run
(10:59):
so deep that is really seems to dictate how folks
feel about this issue for a very long time. Yeah,
this about brings us to another flashpoint in this debate.
But first we're gonna take a quick break for word
from our sponsor. Uh m hm, and we're back. Thank
(11:24):
you sponsor. So in two thousand and twelve we come
to another kind of touched on a big event in
this debate, and that is with m Savitza Pravine hal
A Peta Ar Savita was a dentist who was born
in India and she moved to Ireland in two thousand
and eight and she settled in Galaway with her husband Pravine.
(11:45):
On October one, two thousand and twelve, she went to
University Hospital, Galway after complaining of back pain and eventually
suffered a miscarriage at seventeen weeks. Her miscarriage went on
for days, but saying they were bound by Irish abortion law,
hospital staff would not provide any medical aide to speed.
At the end of her pregnancy, a midwife manager told
(12:06):
her she couldn't terminate her pregnancy quote because Ireland it's
a Catholic country. Yeah, And according to the coroner, the
words quote went around the world and I would agree
with that. Yeah. This sort of became a galvanizing moment,
particularly that comment that the midwife manager made that Ireland
is a Catholic country. It's interesting they've identified the woman
(12:28):
who said that, and she admits saying and she feels
bad about saying it, But I don't think that she
knew that her comments would become this flashpoint for getting
people so angry and so upset about this issue that
it would ultimately spark this kind of massive change. Oh yeah,
I would bet she was quite surprised that it took off.
(12:49):
I'm sure to her it was probably like just fat
kind of Yeah, that's what she says. They interviewed her
and she said that she was just trying to explain,
you know, the why of this abortion law. And she
she's right that that was that was the case. But
using that as a basically as the explanation for why
someone is going to die is just so deeply, deeply,
(13:10):
deeply upsetting. Another thing to note about sevida situation is
that doctors told her that her miscarriage was inevitable and
she was still denied an abortion. There was no saving
this pregnancy, she was going to lose that pregnancy irregardless,
and they still let her die. Yeah, which I find,
I mean hard for me to think of a way
(13:35):
to defend that, and especially like, well, we're just a
Catholic country, like I suppose that goes to show how
acceptable we find or at least in some religions, were
able to justify the death of the woman rather than
provide them this service that has been deemed immoral. Right.
And she died a painful, agonizing long and probably emotionally,
(13:59):
I mean she she died at really really unimaginably cruel
death on all fronts, emotionally, mentally, physically, on all fronts.
Her death was unimaginably cruel. Yeah. A report by the
Health Service Executive found later that there had been quote
an over emphasis by hospital staff on the welfare of
(14:20):
Mrs Hall, a pan of ours unviable fetus, and under
emphasis on her deteriorating health and they could it sound
like they could have saved her. Yeah, And if you know,
if the miscarriage is inevitable, what are you doing right, Like, like,
who are you helping no one? You're killing someone. You're
killing someone, yeah, and you're making them die a agonizing death.
(14:45):
Like it just just so awful, It just just so awful.
As awful as this was, her death became a symbol,
sparking protests and vigils all across Ireland. Campaigners began urging
that folks remember Sevita and calling for chain as to
ireland strict abortion laws. Here's Ruth Coppinger, an Irish Solidarity
People before Profit politicians, speaking at a rally to remember
(15:08):
Cevida friends. We're here today in huge numbers to show
usinate said our solidarity with the family on the friends
of Sevisa and we want to send a message to
her family if you have huge support here in Ireland,
(15:28):
absolutely massive support, and that pretty much brings us to
where we're at today. You know, her tragic death was
really this flashpoint for enough outrage and anger and justified
(15:49):
rage to coalesce to get someplace on this issue. I
think so many women saw this story and thought that
could be me, that could be my kid. I don't
want to live in an Ireland where that happens for
no reason. Yeah, and so people came together and they
made a change, and we're gonna talk more about that,
(16:11):
but first we're gonna take one more quick break for
a word from our sponsor m HM, and we're back,
Thank you sponsor. Yeah. So, last month, Ireland held a
vote to repeal the Eighth Amendment. Thousands of Irish immigrants
(16:33):
flew from all over the world back to Ireland to vote,
including a few smentthy listeners. That's right. Shout out to
Instagram user j O Grady who told me that she
came all the way from Boston to Ireland to vote yes,
so you go. Good for you. And this is the
stuff that like warms my organizer heart. People getting together
(16:54):
and saying, hey, all of y'all young people who left
Ireland for other places, we need you to if you
can do it, come back vote. Help be the force
that pushes the needle on this issue. Yeah. And they
shared their journeys using the hashtag home to Vote, and
if you scrolled that hashtag, there were so many brilliant
(17:15):
stories of people traveling from far and wide about why
they were doing it. Some people said things like oh,
I didn't want this could be me. Some people expressed
interest in moving back to Ireland one day, but they
didn't want to live in Ireland where basic healthcare was
just this inaccessible, and really it was. It was quite
a beautiful sort of touching thing. Here's the London Irish
Abortion Rights campaign video urging young Irish people to come
(17:38):
home to vote. If you're an Irish citizen and I've
lived in Ireland in the past eighteen months, wherever you
are in the world right now, you may be eligible
to vote. Three years ago, young Irish people traveled from
all over the planet to make Ireland a more equal place.
We need you again. On the twenty May. We're getting
a once in a generation chance to make Ireland a safer,
fair place for women. Let's do it together. Come home
(18:01):
to vote yes to repeal the Eighth Amendment. Together Together,
Together together, Kayla, together together. Wonderful. Yeah, and it is.
I think it's the organizer in me, applods Eat and
every one of those those Irish folks who came back
to vote, because you know that's no easy feet, you know,
(18:22):
flying from Boston, l A, wherever to Ireland to vote,
Like not everybody can do that, but I think it again,
it goes to underscore this idea that if you have
the ability, you have the money, you can get the
time off whatever to make that trip you It's important.
And I remember seeing someone sign when I was looking
through the hashtag. The sign said, I'm making this journey
so the women who can't don't have to, So they
(18:44):
don't want to get on that boat and they don't
want to scrape together that money or stay in that
hostels like I can, I can make this journey so
that other women don't have to. Yeah, and um some
of the women are um assuming women. Some of the
people returned home. They or flights paid for by generous
strangers in the Abroad for Yes Facebook group with over
(19:04):
three thousand, eight hundred members willing to sponsor flights, which
is also very lovely. It is lovely, you know in
that expression, feminism isn't something you are, it's something that
you do. That's That's what this is to me in
a kind of way. It's putting your money where your
mouth is and doing that thing. Whether it's paying for
somebody else's flight because you can't vote in Ireland, or
(19:25):
it's it's righting together the money and taking the time
off work and going home to Ireland to vote. I
think it's just it's just really powerful. It's really something.
Sevida's parents made a video before the vote urging Irish
voters to vote yes and remember his daughter, and after
the vote he thanked the people of Ireland for really
coming out in droves and supporting the tragic loss of
(19:48):
his daughter, and I'm keeping that in mind at the polls.
He said he was quote very happy at the result
of Ireland's referendum. We've got justice for Sevita and what
happened to her will not happen to any other family.
Right now, I have no words to express my gratitude
to the people of Ireland at this historic moment. In
many Irish people similarly went home to vote to pass
(20:09):
marriage equality, and you know, while pushes like home to
vote and urging folks to come home and make their
voices heard if they can are obviously awesome. Connor O'Neil,
the co founder of We're Coming Back, a campaign for
emigrant voting rights, points out at The Irish Times that
Irish citizens shouldn't actually have to do this. They shouldn't
have to go all the way back to Ireland just
(20:31):
to make their voice heard. He writes, citizens shouldn't need
to do this. It's expensive, exclusionary, and for every incredible
home to voter, someone couldn't travel. Most countries recognize this,
but Ireland remains one of the few democracies with no
facility for overseas voting, a legacy of our high rates
of emigration and the failure of successive governments to put
(20:51):
an effective system in place. Our rules are some of
the most restrictive in the world. No postal facility exists,
and under the Electoral Acts, returning to vote beyond a
meager eighteen months abroad is a crime punishable up to
two years imprisonment. Many voters vote have known this on
a three year working visa. Surely the ballots waiting at
home don't come with criminal charges. Given the landslide result,
(21:13):
even the wildest estimates of how many returned couldn't have
impacted the outcome. But the absurd contradiction remains. We cheer
these voters home, but our laws treat them as criminals. Yeah,
it should not be that difficult as a citizen to
vote in your countries and things impacting your country in
a country that you have citizenship in. But nonetheless yea,
(21:39):
the campaign was successful. Free wire News quotes one longtime campaigner,
zy Kankazi. One of the things in this campaign is
that women have talked about that. Women have kept that
silent for years and have talked to their friends and
family about that and about why the law needs to change.
This whole silent underground campaign that is going on with
women who are talking about their personal experiences under the
(21:59):
law and not just of abortion, because the Eighth Amendment
also affects the care of women in every pregnancy. Absolutely correct.
Something I love about Izzy kamakazees comments here is that
they really help us understand that the Eighth Amendment was
obviously about access to abortion, but also even if you
are someone who is carrying a pregnancy to term, you
are so impacted by this legislation. It's not just for
(22:21):
people who are seeking abortions or to terminate a pregnancy.
Take for instance, the case of Mother B. In Mother
B wanted to give worth vaginally, but she was shocked
when the Health Service Executive or the h s E,
applied to the High Court to force her to have
a cesarean section against her will to vindicate the right
to life of her unborn child. They sought permission to
(22:42):
keep Mother B from leaving the hospital and to enlist
police to arrest her if she did. The fetus was
given its own attorney. There was a court injunction and
ultimately the court allowed her to give worth vaginally. But
this just goes to show this legislation is obviously about abortion,
but anybody who wants the reproductive rights respected, whether it
(23:02):
is the right to carry your pregnancy to term the
way that you want, or the right to not do so.
Anybody along that spectrum has a steak in this conversation. Absolutely,
and ultimately the yes vote did win violence side of
sixty six point four percent of voters voting to repeal
(23:22):
the amendments. So it looks like a lot of women
or I keep the saving women, but this is an
issue that impacts everybody. Yeah, and I mean women aren't
the only folks who get pregnant. We need to say that,
you know, anybody with a uterus, anybody with a steak
and health care and reproductive rights, they understood what you
were saying, Bridget that it is not just a portion.
(23:43):
This impacts so much, so much more. And I'm I'm
very very happy that it was the eighth was repealed.
I am too. So you might be asking what happens now, Well,
in the short term, nothing, nothing will change immediately, According
(24:04):
to Wendy Lyon, a lawyer and pro choice organizer based
in Ireland, because the anti choice law is still on
the books, we're pretty much guaranteed that there's gonna be
some attempt to challenge it. They've done this with pretty
much every referendum that has advocated a liberal agenda. As
she says, they failed every time, but they will try
it again. And Dublin City Councilor Ellis Ryan points out
that another important aspect of this conversation going forward is
(24:27):
how abortion access will be handled in Ireland. It is
not enough for it to be legal, It also has
to be accessible and really the only way that you
can do that is through a public health service. That
is going to be the next battle for socialist campaigners
pro choice campaigners is how can we ensure that this
is not yet another service that is outsourced to a
private company that doesn't have women's best interests at heart.
(24:47):
And I think that really is so true that it's
not enough for this to just be legal, it has
to also be accessible, right otherwise what's the point? Yeah, exactly,
And going back to the US for a second. Abortion
access here remains under attack and campaigners are looking to
Ireland as a beacon of light. In Rhode Island, campaigners
are pushing for the Reprojective Healthcare Act the r h
(25:09):
A and pointing to Ireland's recent landslide vote to legalize
abortion care as an example to follow. So this is
having an impact outside of Ireland as well. That's always
kind of a kind of comforting reminder. Yeah, we're this
is global, We're all in this together. This is this
is a global fight. In Rhode Island right now, if
Roe v. Wade were overturned, which I know that to
(25:31):
some of you that might sound unthinkable, but anti choice
politicians are waging attacks on it every day in so
many different ways. If it were overturned in Rhode Island,
abortion will be illegal unless the Reproductive Healthcare Act, which
right now is stuck on committee, was passed. The pro
choice legislation would codify Roe v. Wade protections into state law.
(25:51):
And I think why Rhode Island is looking to Ireland,
it's because Rhode Island is the most heavily Catholic state
in the United States, and so a lot of similarly
to Ireland might think, oh, our state is just so
culturally and politically gripped by the Catholic Church that this
thing will never pass. But Ireland shows us that that's
(26:12):
not necessarily true. Right. I did not know that about
Rhode Islands. Hillary Levy Friedman, president of the Rhode Island
chapter of the National Organization for Women, said the student
is looking towards Ireland as a model that heavily Catholic
cultures can still move the needle on reproductive rights. Quote.
One of the biggest issues raised in opposition to the
Reproductive Health Care Act in Rhode Island is that this
(26:34):
is the most Catholic state in America. That said, Ireland,
a nation founded on the basis of Catholicism, has just
made abortion legal, so clearly it can be done. It
can be done. It was done. Yes, y'all did it.
And again it makes me so sad that it took
a tragedy of someone dying and needless and needless and painful,
(26:54):
unacceptable death to get where we are. But I'm just
so happy that voters in Ireland remembered Cevita. Yes and
um virget and I were in the studio when they
that news. We got the news about it. We were
very excited. I was checking checking my phone every five minutes.
I had a feeling it was going to pay. I
(27:16):
had a feeling it was going to pass by a landslide.
I did not express those feelings. I learned from a
certain election that you probably don't want to get to
ahead of yourself about verbalizing your thoughts on how an
election is going to go. But I was pretty confident
it was going to be a landslide. I didn't want
to say anything, but it was very confident. Yes, and
(27:37):
we are happy that that turned out to be the case.
So that's that's what we have to say. Uh, please
Irish anyone, any Irish listeners out there, We'd love to
hear from you, and not just because we love your accents, no,
because we would be imagining the accent in our heads.
Since generally there is no audio component of mail or
(27:59):
social media, you can do an attachment. Yes, sink big Annie.
I'm still stuck in my ways of text and behind
the times and the times. But speaking of this brings
us to listener mail. Our first letter letter is from Renee. Hey, ladies,
(28:25):
I love your show and recently listened to the Action
Figures episode followed by the gender reveal episode, and I
thought I would write in I'm thirty two and identify
myself proudly as a nerd. I think that has made
me seek out the clothes I are my daughter Jimma
want no matter the department label. But it's very frustrating
that not only do girls not always get the cool,
nerdy things we love, but the sizes are so different
(28:46):
in each department. I recently went through her clothes and everything,
and a five T from the girl's department was too small,
both short and tight, but her stuff from the boy
section still had room to grow. I also have issues
about how a lot of kids clothing lines set shualized
girls from birth with tighter, shorter clothes, even bikinis for infants.
Not only is that disgusting, but not every child is
(29:06):
built alike. So the sorts you think are okay length
on your fin athletic toddler make my thicker built big
booty one look not great to put it nicely from birth,
I've just hearned space science and several fandoms of clothing.
If I saw something I liked, we bought it. If
she wanted a Star Wars shirt like Daddy, I found
her one Jim and will be four on Saturday, and
she has been telling us for over a years she
wants to be an astronaut when she goes up. I
(29:29):
see a definite connection and the clothes that she wears
in her attitude towards what are typically labeled boy She
also loves fluffy cats and pink, but will argue the
fact she knows more about why the sun shines with you.
Raising a girl is so much fun, But we make
a decided effort in her home to literally encourage her
to be whatever she wants, not just what society thinks
she should be. I'm continuing to foster her dreams with toys.
(29:50):
For a birthday this year, she'll be getting the new
American Girl Doll Luciana, who also wants to be an
astronaut when she grows up. I knew that toys mattered,
but your show finally reinforced that for me. I've attached
pictures of the past four years of her outfits below
because I'm totally biased. She's adorable. She was a rock
star astronaut for Halloween, so I thought the bowie makeup
(30:10):
was appropriate. Cute. Happy birthday, Gemma, so cute. I know
a rock star astronauts going to argue with you about
the sunshine, ng this is my time. I want to
make this kid. It sounds like she sounds like a
rad kid. She do. I mean, she sounds really cool
and yeah, I'm happy that she has such an awesome mom.
(30:33):
Yeah yea. Our next email is from Quentin. Quentin writes,
I just wanted to reach out to you both. Following
the Female Action Figures podcast. I especially identified with the
missed potential due to marketing across the gender boundary. But
from the other direction, My family and I are major
Disney fans, and my personal favorite character is tinker Bell.
Tinker Bell is awesome by the way. Disney launched the
(30:54):
Disney Fairies line back into two thousand five with toys, apparel,
and movies. In this franchise, tinker Bell solved her problems
through tinkering, which basically means building and engineering. I saw
her as an early stem role model for young kids,
and especially young girls. As an engineer, I fell in
love with the character. In the two thousand nine direct
to home film tinker Bell and the Lost Treasure, she
(31:14):
built a hot air balloon from a found item and
even had her own adventuring outfit. They've since phased out
this line, which I think is a missed opportunity. Every
visit to the Disney Store or Disney Parks, I'm always
on the lookout for tinker Bell merchandise. A few years back,
I did come across a great dark blue hoodie with
a nice Tinkerball design on the back, and I wore
the heck out of it, but I've never found anything
(31:35):
like it. Since everything is strongly marketed at girls and women,
I guess in their minds, guys can't be fans of
a character or a Disney princess. As you discussed in
the podcast, they really seem to be missing an opportunity
if they just included a few more gender neutral options
for their characters. This applies not only to making action
figures for girls, but opening up some of their other
great characters for guys as well. Quentin, I cannot agree more.
(31:58):
I really want to see this hoodie. I want to
see all the tinker Bell items that you've amasked and
I didn't. It didn't even occur to me that tinker
Bell was this like mini engineer, fairy tinkering. No, it
didn't to me either, and I'm so glad to know that.
But absolutely, like, I'm all for It's okay if you wanna,
you can play whatever with whatever toys you want. We
(32:19):
don't have to say there for ex gender or ex gender.
So yeah, I'm all about all about toys for everybody
here here. Yeah, So thank you to both of them
for writing. Thanks as always to our producers, Dylan Fagan
and Kathleen Willian. If you would like to write toys,
you can. Our email is mom Stuff at how Stuff
(32:41):
works dot com, and you can find is on social
Can't you bridget You Sure can, or on Twitter at
mom Stuff Podcast and on Instagram at Stuff Mom Never
told You
Stuff Mom Never Told You News
Hosts And Creators
Anney Reese
Samantha McVey
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