February 27, 2019 • 38 mins
When people think of women and Mardi Gras, they probably imagine bare breasts and beads -- but that's certainly not the extent of women's participation in the Fat Tuesday fest. Just in time for Mardi Gras, enjoy this classic episode.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and you're listening to stuff Mom
never told you. As of recording Marty Gras, A K
Fat Tuesday is fast approaching. Recently, as part of the
(00:29):
other podcast I do, which is called Sabor, you should
check it out, we went on a field trip to
New Orleans to learn all about the food and drink
and history of that city, which, as you can't imagine,
was a little overwhelming. Lots going on in New Orleans.
If you're interested, those episodes have started coming out, so
I I would highly recommend checking them out. We interviewed
(00:50):
eighteen plus people and one of the things that surprised
me the most um talking to all these people, was
hearing locals talk about Marty Gras and describing it as
this family, communal, neighborhood celebration. And I don't know about
you listeners, especially you listeners not from New Orleans, but
when I thought of Marty Graw prior to this, I
(01:11):
thought of people who had too much to drink and
women showing their breast for beads. And while that does exist,
Marty Gras is so much more than that. One woman
we spoke to, um she's She talked about her experience
in Crew Bacchus, which is a crew or kind of
a group organization based around Star Wars. That's fantastic. The
(01:34):
role of women, and of race and of gender, all
of these things have a huge part in Marty Gras.
For those celebrating, have a happy and safe Marty Gras.
For those who are not the same, goes for your Tuesday,
and for all of you, I hope you enjoyed this
classic episode. Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from
(01:56):
how stup works dot com. Hello and welcome to the podcast.
I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline and happy Marty Raw. Thanks
you too, Thanks Caroline. Have you ever been to Marty
Graw in New Orleans? I haven't, really, no, I haven't.
(02:16):
Let me tell you a girl, Um, I've I've been
to Marty Gras a few times now, and I've been
to New Orleans a number of times because one of
my best friends lives there. And when I the prospect
of going the first time, I was skeptical because I
was in college, but I was still like, I don't know,
it seems like an awful lot of boobs and and booze,
(02:40):
which makes me sound like a real fun college kid. Um,
but it's fantastic. You don't. If you don't want to
see any exposed breasts, you don't have to, or if
you do, you can. Um. But there was one quote
about Marty Gras by this woman named Carol Flake, who
has written a lot about the history Marty Graw, who says,
there is a play in New Orleans Carnival for anyone
(03:01):
who cares to join in. And that is completely my experience.
Um So, I was really excited when you were down
to do an episode on Marty gro and women Marty
gra Yeah. I mean, the stereotype is absolutely the stereotype
that you had as a college student, which it is
just like this debaucherous, like X rated boo bearing you know, beadfest.
(03:24):
How do you like that for a literation? Hey, hey, well,
and it can absolutely be as X rated and wild
as you want it to be. Um. And we should
also know that the Marty Gras does not just happen
in New Orleans. It also takes place in in Metai,
uh in Mobile, Alabama, and in smaller towns all around
New Orleans and in in the Gulf area. Uh So,
(03:48):
let's just let's just start talking about Marty graw because
we're going to get into some stuff about Marty Gras
and women in gender and it's not all going to
be about boobs. Well, starting off, Marty Grat really is
just this teeny tiny, little six weeks celebration that has
more than thirty thousand parade writers and fifty nine crews.
No big deal, yeah it. I was astounded to find
(04:11):
out that it has. For money, nerds out there, get this,
a one billion dollar economic impact on New Orleans. I
am not surprised. I'm not surprised either. I mean, it
attracts around four million tourists today, but even in the
nineteen hundreds it was a major tourist attraction. As early
as nineteen hundred there were a hundred thousand people, which
(04:32):
was a lot for that time, going to New Orleans
to see Marty Graw. Well, its origins are not only
international but ancient. It goes all the way back to
those silly pagans hanging out over in Europe and Rome. Basically,
(04:52):
Marty grad itself is a Christian holiday and popular cultural
phenomenon and tradition, but actually dates back to spring and
fertility rights like Saturnalia and luper Callia, which was, you know,
just like whatever, just like a circus like orgy. No
big deal, no big deal. But moving from the pagan
orgies to Christianity, Marty Grass Season officially kicks off on
(05:14):
January six with the twelfth Night Feast of the Epiphany,
which commemorates uh In in Christian lore, the day that
the Three Wise Men visited Jesus, which is which is
a little funny, mean, because all of this is so
steeped in religion, and the Catholic Church has like officially
been like, all right, you can, you guys can have
(05:35):
Marty Gras because Marty grad Day is not only a
legal holiday in New Orleans, but it also is the
day before Lent starts. Right, you gotta get all that
crazy out, that's right, gotta shake that crazy idea. But
those pagan fertility rites and rituals were incorporated into Christianity
because when the religion arrived in Rome, religious leaders were like,
(06:00):
we really can't like do away with everything, you know,
they're they're gonna get upset, So we'll just incorporate it
into this tradition so that people can, you know, have
these parties before this this season of giving things up.
Basically yeah, it's that that forty day period of penance
between Ash Wednesday and Easter Sunday, and Marty Grass spread
(06:23):
from Rome to other European countries, including France, Germany, Spain,
and England. And of course it is France that gave
us the name Marty Gras, which is French for Fat Tuesday.
Fat Tuesday. It's also known as Carnival uh and celebrated
all over the world, mainly in countries with Roman Catholic populations.
But I don't know many people who would you know,
(06:45):
opt out of celebrating Marty Gras. I mean, it's it's
a fun time for anybody. It is a fun time
in kincake is delicious, so good, and you know what
Marty Gras like. I don't keep up with when it
is because it's always different, and I just I'm always
excited for a kincake and then I just let passed
me by. No. I know, I have gotten the baby
though before in the Kingkake. Well then you need to
(07:06):
get on it and buy a King cake for me, okay,
just for you. But in the United States, I didn't
know this. This is really fascinating. The first American Marty
Gras is thought to have taken place on March third,
six nine, when French explorers Yberville and Bienneville landed in
(07:26):
what is now Louisiana. They were basically camped out around
fifty miles outside of modern day New Orleans, and they
were like halls of Mardi Grawl. Yeah, they actually dubbed
the spot where they landed point du maldi gra. How
do you like that for a non accent. Anyway, a
lot New Orleans and other French settlements begin marking the
(07:48):
holiday with street parties, masked balls, and lavish dinners. And
that sounds pretty much like Marty Gras today actually, But
important note, Caroline, the very first modern day Marty Gras
celebration outside of you know, Yberville and Bienville hanging out,
it did not happen in New Orleans. It actually happened
in seventeen oh three in Mobile, Alabama, which still has
(08:12):
a Marta Gras tradition. And uh side note for documentary
fans out there, check out the Order of the Myths.
It came out in two thousand eight, all about Marty
Gras and Mobile and how it is still highly racially segregated. Um.
But a little a little fun Marde Gras fact for you.
But moving back to New Orleans, when the Spanish took control,
(08:33):
they abolished Marty Gras. How rude? How how would do?
Who would do with that? Yeah? And the band stayed
in place until Louisiana became a U S state in
eighteen twelve, and then you start to see it coming
back in full force. And in seven you have a
group of students who put on these colorful costumes and
dance to the streets of New Orleans, basically imitating all
(08:56):
of the revelry they'd seen while they were in Paris.
And a decade later, the first recorded New Orleans Marty
Gras took place. Yeah. But then in eighteen fifties seven
you have the origin of the cruise and that's crew
with a K and an E on the end um.
And these are the organizations that you see today that
(09:17):
put together those massive floats. And it was all really
started by rich white dudes who were like, hey, let's
start up a secret society. Yeah, that sounds fun. So
in eighteen fifty seven, the secret society of New Orleans
businessmen called the Mystic Crew of Comus organized a tortulit
Marty grab procession and they had marching bands and rolling
(09:41):
floats and all of the floats were themed around mythology
and literature, which you still see a lot today. Yeah,
and we have Commas to thank, honestly for not getting
Marty Gras cand again, because leading up to this time
it was pretty debaucherous. The maskers were pretty violent. It
was just kind have a girl's gone wild horrible type
(10:03):
of thing. But Commas was known to have beautified the
parade ensuring that it would stick around. And we should
also note that one important part of the Marty Gras
tradition that it also emerges during that first parade are
the flambeaux and flambeau's French for flame, and these were
usually slaves or freemen of color who would march alongside
(10:26):
these rich white guys floats with torches to light up
these magnificent creations that they had made. And you still
see the flambeaux tradition today. And in we had the
very first all female flambeau troop marching alongside the Muses
(10:47):
parade and they call themselves the Glambeaux. Oh I love it. Yeah, Well,
you know, speaking of women and people on the sidelines.
We we can't talk about Marty Gras in this podcast
and not address that gender aspect because in the early days,
in the mid to late nineteenth century, women were totally
(11:07):
in the background. They were not participating in any way
on the floats and things like that, except for maybe
the queen. But these elite male crews had working class
women designing their fancy costumes and the floats for the parades,
while the upper class women also played supporting roles, but
this time actually helping their husbands, their rich husbands display
(11:28):
their mock royalty. Yeah, it's it's kind of funny that
with the history of Martie Gras, it all starts out
with men really wanting to play dress up and have
these fancy balls and and pretend to be kings and
dukes and whatnot. And at the at those early balls,
the men would wear these elaborate costumes, whereas the wives
(11:49):
would just swear, you know, typical gowns. Um Although in
eighteen seventy two, at the very first Rex Parade, which
today is I mean it's still one of the biggest
super rus as they're called, there were some women who
dressed up as men in order to march behind the parade,
gotta cross dress just to even participate. That's right. Well, yeah,
(12:11):
like you said, women weren't really allowed or you know,
it wasn't the tradition for women to dress up or
you know, masquerade. But in e you have a group
of upper class women who founded Lay myster Uses that's
not how you say it, um, a non parading organization.
So they were dressing up, but they weren't parading, and
(12:33):
their big thing was to host a ball that reversed
gender traditions. They alone were allowed to dress in costumes
and in masquerade, concealing their identities, and they got They
picked a queen who selected her own queen. But they
only had held two balls and disbanded in nine. Yeah,
you see a number of these all women crews kind
(12:54):
of pop up and then sort of dissolve. Um. So
for instance, um, you have the mid which came around
in nineteen o one, which were composed of debutantes, but
it only lasted until nineteen twenty, and then in nineteen
o six you have the Mystic Maids, in nineteen eleven
the Crew of Yami, and then in nineteen seventeen though
(13:15):
you have the Crew of Iris, which is still in existence. Yeah.
And they began by hosting small king cake parties, which
sounds like exactly what I want to go to. Uh.
And they now claimed to be the oldest and largest
of all the female carnival crews. Uh. In nineteen forty
nine they held an extravagant first ball, which was actually televised,
(13:37):
and ten years later, in nineteen fifty nine, they actually
started parading. Yeah. It took that long for them to
start having parades, which to me seems so strange because
I mean, I know that the balls are a big deal. Um,
but okay, ball's fine, but I'm all about the parade. Sure, exactly,
Candy and beads man, that's right. Um. And it, like
(13:59):
I said, it's still parades, but it's a day parade
that happens two weekends before Marty Grass, So it's not
exactly in the in a prime spot, Yeah exactly. Um.
But in the nineteen twenties you do start to see
the formation of several African American women's crews, including the
Red Circle, Young Ladies twenty three and the Mystic Crew.
(14:19):
And this is notable because for the you know, crews
like the Crew of isis Mystic maids, and I'm sure
laymis Dee uses they were not inviting to women who
were not white and not of the upper upper cross standing. Yeah,
the defense that everybody in these kind of upper class
(14:41):
crews give is that it's like, well, it's just it's
just me my friends, you know, I'm just I'm not discriminating.
It's just that I'm only inviting my friends and family.
But thankfully, in scrappy New Orleans tradition, that does not
stop other people from forming crews. So you do have
the emergence of those early UM African American all women
(15:01):
crews like the Young Ladies twenty three UM. But we
should note too that in N one, that is when
you have the first women's parade. Even though the Crew
of Iris is older, it's the Crew of Venus with
their inaugural pageant that kicks off women parading. Yeah, and
they did not have an easy time of it. They
(15:22):
paraded during a downpour and the crowd was hardly kind.
It was very hostile. And Arthur Hardy, who's a Marty
Gras historian, points out that, yeah, they got a lot
of publicity, but none of it was positive. Yeah, he
was talking to the alt Weekly in New Orleans, the
Gambit saying, it's interesting to look at the newspaper clippings
from back then because it was front page news, women
(15:45):
on floats, the apocalypse is near, and he goes on
to say, I'm exaggerating a little bit, but really not much.
But what's also notable about the Crew of Venus is that, yes,
these are all white women, all wealthy women, but a
lot of them too at this time are becoming businesswomen
in their own right, and so they're starting up their
(16:07):
own crews because they don't need men to pay for them.
So they're like, hey, listen, guys, y'all can go do
your you know, your rex thing, and we're going to
do ours. And in a way, like Hardie talks about
how it was sort of symbolic of early glass ceiling
tapping at least that was going on defying gender norms
(16:28):
at Marty Gras, go for it, go for it well
all the way. Flash forward half a century into two
thousand and that's when you have the Crew of Muses
form and they are the first of the contemporary all
(16:49):
female parade and crews to organize a night parade which
occurs on the Thursday before Marty Gras, which is a
much more prestigious spot than the Crew of Iris had. Yeah,
and and Muses is part of this more recent movement
among newer crews to be more open and egalitarian, and
they have that open membership like you and I could
apply online right now, Caroline, UM as a way to
(17:13):
democratize the crewise system and make it not just a
thing where it's only white rich people, but opening it
up to make sure that it's economically diverse and also
racially diverse. And um, I would also like to note
that the Muses have one of the best premium throws
as in the you know the stuff that they toss
passers by. Um. They collect high heels from their members
(17:38):
throughout the year and then leading up to the Martigrad
parade they decorate them and all sorts of fun things
and throw them out and and it's uh all. Some
have said that they're just waiting for a lawsuit because
you can imagine throwing high heels into a crowd of
drunk people might not be wise, but that makes it
so exciting when you have big throw like that. It's
(18:00):
similar to the Zulu Parade where the signature throws a
coconut right, which tends to dent cars and heads. Yes,
but yeah, yeah, a similar thing. But you know Robin Roberts,
who in her two thousand six book on the topic
really really dove into the gender of gender and history
of Mardy Gras, points out the significance of holding this
(18:21):
night parade. This is this is a big deal, especially
for an all women group, because she says that by
scheduling their parade at night, the crew of Muses are
self consciously challenging the domination of these elite male crews.
They're moving from the behind the scenes roles that women
traditionally filled during Marty Gras, they're getting out there on
(18:42):
the parade route and uh now organizing and performing center
stage in their own parade. Like you said, they don't
need no stinking man. Well, and they become so popular
that there's actually a wait list now to even get
into the parade. It's one of the large is to cruise,
and it's only one of two all female super cruise.
(19:04):
There's also one called Nicks in y X. But Muses,
at least from my experience, is extremely popular. People love
the Muses parade. It's a lot of fun, but it's
also I mean, it's also at night, and if you're
a night parade during Marty Gras, it's probably gonna be
a little bit more fun because, let's face it, you've
been drinking hurricanes all day. Lord, I just can't imagine
(19:25):
how much I would how much I would pass out.
But you're also weighted down by beads. I get bead
fever whenever I go, And at first I get really
excited and start trying to catch as many beads as possible.
But then once you have about five pounds of beads
around your neck, you're like, nothing, nothing else. Don't toss
me anything else unless it's a bloody Mary. And I
(19:47):
feel like I'm I'm painting quite a rosy picture of
Marty Gras. But there is one thing that certainly stands
out in the parade, and that is the fact that
even today, it is very segregated racially. Yeah, the effort
to actually racially desegregate and we're not even talking about
(20:08):
gender yet, we're talking about racial segregation. The effort to
desegregate these parades and parties was led by a long
time civil rights advocate Dorothy May Taylor. She was the
first woman elected to the New Orleans City Council in
nineteen eighties six and back in nineteen she proposed an
ordinance to desegregate the gentleman's luncheon clubs that had been
(20:32):
the public face of the Marty Gros cruise crews weren't
actually desegregated until nineteen and basically the reasoning behind this
was like, it wasn't so much that, oh, we have
to have fifty fifty, or we need these quotas to
make these crews racially equal. It had a lot more
to do with going all the way back to the
origin of the American Marty Grass. So the origin of
(20:55):
Carnival and Marty Grass in general was the pagan rituals, right,
But in America it had a lot more to do
with businessmen, white upper class elite businessmen getting together and
striking deals. And if those deals are closed off to
the bulk of society, including African Americans, it's kind of
not a level playing field. Yeah, I mean, because that's
(21:16):
one thing you might not think about as an outsider
looking in at Mardi Gras, that views crews throughout the
year are actually very powerful networking opportunities, especially if you're
in something like uh, you know, the the Rex Crew,
which costs a lot of money to join. But in
this whole talk of desegregation really set off a firestorm
(21:39):
among a lot of these crews, and in fact, Comus
and another crew called Momus canceled their parades that year
in protest. They were like, listen, no, we don't we
don't want to have to do this. And um, I
was reading a story before we came into the studio
today from the Times Picune. I think it was came
out last year looking back at the or maybe it
(22:03):
was from two thousand twelve, because I was looking at
the twenty years since desegregation debacle because people were so
panicked by it. And um, the takeaway from the story
was that a lot of the desegregation that has happened
has been a lot more organic through organizations like the
Muses starting up. And I believe Orpheus is a newer
(22:26):
crew that's a lot you know, it just accepts everybody.
So it's almost like with a new generation coming in
and taking over Marty Gras, they're just sort of doing
it in their own way and not paying as much
attention to the old guard, like White Secret society factor. Yeah. Well,
(22:47):
an earlier version of Taylor's ordinance had actually called for
an end to gender discrimination as well, but it was
thrown out because not only were men not excited about this,
but women were like, hey, hey, wait, wait wait, we
want our own things too, Like you know, women today,
especially like the Muses, are like, no, we don't want
to have to accept men, so we're fine if they
(23:09):
don't accept us, because we're not accepting them either. Yeah,
it's funny they want to keep their own floats to themselves.
And one woman made a point saying that I think
she was she's a member of the Muses, talking about
how listen, Marty grav is the time when you know,
things can get weird really fast, and if you have
I mean, they're not supposed to drink on the floats,
but it totally happens. And they're like if you mix
(23:32):
alcohol and say a husband and wife standing next to
each other and the husband tosses beads too an attractive
girl in the sideline, she was like, it's just that's
just one example of how things could get uncomfortable, right,
And Arthur Hardy that Marty Gras historian UH talked to
a lot of these women, and he said, look, the
ladies crew said, we love men, but they are not
(23:54):
going to dress with us or being our floats. They
can just meet us at the end of the parade.
And so that ordinance was amended to allow for single
gender cruise gender exclusion. A okay on all sides that
it was that racial aspect that was the one that
was more contested. But we also need to talk about
how African Americans in New Orleans have also made their
(24:15):
own Marty Gras traditions. While this is happening, that that
initiative in wasn't like, oh, no, you know, there's nothing
for them. No, They've been doing their own thing for
a while, right, like the Marty Gras Indians who began
appearing in the late nineteenth century, and the first group
was the Creole wild West from the seventh ward. And
(24:37):
there's some origin theories about these participants, one of which
is that the groups are honoring Native Americans who helped
hide runaway slaves from bounty hunters and slave masters. Another
theory is that the Buffalo Bills Wild West show that
traveled through New Orleans in the late nineteenth century inspired
African Americans to dress as Indians. Others that were interviewed
(24:58):
in the news talked about how because a lot of
their costumes kind of harken back to like an Afro
Caribbean heritage or a West African heritage, that they are, yes,
honoring Native Americans, but also honoring their own West African heritage. Yeah.
And I mean then their costumes, which a lot of
them make themselves, are incredible in the level of like
(25:21):
craftsmanship and detail that goes into it. Um. But we've
also got to talk about the Crew of Zulu because
Zulu is a tough parade to make because it's early
in the morning and if you've been out at a
night parade, that can be hard to make, but it's
so worth it. The Crew of Zulu started out as
(25:42):
Zulu Social Aid and Pleasure Club, and apparently it was
essentially a group of like African American men who got
together to sort of parody these rich white guys secret
societies are like, oh, yeah, we're gonna do this to
look at these white guys wanting to make themselves kings
for a day. Yeah. And what's funny about the Crew
of Zulu is they are dressing in black face wearing
(26:04):
grass skirts and coconut bras, things that like, you know,
if if one of these elite white men and the
Rex Crew, for instance, were to do it would be
incredibly racist. Yeah, I mean, basically, what they're taking is
all of the racism that has been directed at them
and making a complete mockery out of it, right. And
(26:26):
uh So they came together and had marched together as
early as nineteen o one, but the first official Zulu
parade happened in nineteen o nine. And a few years
later we have the emergence of the million Dollar Baby Dolls.
And this was a group that I hadn't heard about before,
but it was an organization of African American women who
(26:47):
were a lot of them were working in the Storyville district,
which is no more, but it was a Storyville was
New Orleans red light district. Yeah, and so they sort
of used their profits from working in that red light
district to compete with other African American prostitutes on Mardi Gras.
And the origin of the name and their costumes came
(27:12):
from reclaiming what pimps called them basically, which were which
was baby doll. And so they donned short satin dresses,
stockings with garters and bonnets. But they paired that, you know,
play on dressing like baby dolls against bold and provocative
public behavior for at the time that not only exploited stereotypes,
(27:33):
but empowered them, made them visible. It brought them out
of that red light district where they were basically segregated
in their own black red light district, and brought them
out into the streets to parade. Yeah, and uh recently
Kim marie Vez wrote an entire book about this called
The Baby Dolls Breaking the race and gender barriers of
the New Orleans Mardi Gras tradition. And I don't think
(27:54):
the baby Dolls they aren't a crew necessarily, they don't
have their own float or anything like that, but they
march through the parades um. And in her History of
the Baby Dolls, Voz talks about how they later collected
dues and help dances to raise money for their baby
doll costumes, which possibly made them the first organization in
(28:15):
fact of parading women, predating that I believe crew of
Venus Parade that we mentioned earlier, and she talks about
how at the time high society white women's carnival organizations
held balls, but they didn't parade, So the baby dolls
were kind of the first and a lot of them
(28:36):
have resurfaced. A lot of women in New Orleans are
are kind of reforming these groups as a nod to
their heritage. Yeah, and and in one less nod again
to the African American traditions around Marti Gras. One of
my one of my favorite things too are the second
line parades that happen. And those are just the brass
bands that will march along behind the floats or alongside
(28:59):
the floats and really keep spirits high. I know, I
love those marching bands. I say, like I've been to
New Orleans, but I like them when I see them
on television exactly. Well, Caroline, now we've got to talk
about what I have a feeling a lot of podcast
listeners have been waiting for in this episode, which is
digging into the issue of boobs and beads. And we'll
(29:21):
talk about that right after we come back from a
quick break. But now, Caroline, boobs and beads. Yeah, I
would think, you know, if I, you know, as someone
who's never been to New Orleans, Marty Gras, I would
(29:45):
think that's all there is to it. That's that's what
people are doing morning, noon and night. And a lot
of women in New Orleans are very upset that this
is perceived as an entrenched tradition. Yeah, if you go
to more of the neighborhood Marty gross celebrations and go
and see like the larger parades, you're not going to
see a lot of nudity because, I mean there are
(30:08):
also kids everywhere up and down the streets and it's
more of a family kind of thing. It's really once
you get into the French Quarter and go to Bourbon
Street where you have all the balconies that you see
all the boobs and some penisils and butts. Yeah, women
writing on the website Marty Gros New Orleans dot com
(30:29):
blame it on basically some spring break college age tourists
who you know, end up getting fall down drunk on
Bourbon Street, losing their inhibitions and flashing various genitalia at
people on the floats. Yeah. But uh well, there wouldn't
be any floats in the French Quarter. This is all
(30:50):
people in the balconies with beads yelling down to people,
And I mean every now and then you have people
in the street yelling up. But yeah, it's it's a
sight to see in a sight that unfortunately you sometimes
can't forget. Um. But there is a paper called Ritual
Disrobement at Marty Grass Ceremonial Exchange in Moral Order by
(31:12):
a pair of researchers at l s U, which I
was very excited to find because I was like, yes,
there is an academic paper on boobs and beads at
Marty Gras. And they think though that the nudity began
in the mid seventies, largely because the French Quarter had
become sort of a haven for gay men and during
(31:32):
Marty Gras they would get really wild and the tendency
flashing their penises. Um. But they say that it really
didn't become a widespread feature until the nineteen eighties. So
he had big bangs and boobs coming out of this time. Yeah,
And they do they talk about the gender and social
hierarchies and do note that it was both men and
(31:54):
women ritually disrobing, but women disrobing far more often than men.
And what what these researchers did the It's the creepiest
methodology I've ever read, because they essentially set up cameras
all around the French Quarter to capture moments of disrobement,
and they found that in terms of catching beads without
(32:16):
flashing something, guys were getting beats seventy percent a time,
not haven't shown anything women. And this is French Quarter specific,
which makes a difference. But for women it was only
twenty two point five percent of the time. And it's true.
And if I walk down Bourbon Street, no, for the
record podcast listeners, no, I all of my beads have
come from non disrobement, keeping my shirt on. But if
(32:40):
I walked through Bourbon Street, now you're not going to
get anything. You're not showing showing off your gals. Well,
you know, I think that's good to hear. Yeah, I think.
I think the history of Marty Grass is so rich
and colorful and amazing. I I love that it came
from pagan orgies that were incorporated into Christianity and now
(33:04):
it's just like this long stretch of a good time
before you go into Lent. Speaking of those pagan rituals,
you could say that perhaps the nudity that you see
today is merely a manifestation of that uh shrum and
kilborn those l s U researchers right that, owing to
the continuing significance of gender differences in sexuality, women sometimes
(33:27):
adopt the identity of ritual objects who perform for the
veneration of the crowd and hence bear their breasts for beads.
So like, we're almost like floats too, exactly, we have
to we have two floats. We have two floats. Yeah,
but I would like to underscore on behalf of all
the New Orleans locals out there that yeah, you don't, ladies,
(33:51):
you don't have to show you boobs for beads. Yeah,
just go go and have a good time and have
a good time. And you know what, Hey, if you
if you, if you end up in the French Quarter
and you do and you want to do it, Okay,
we're not going to judge you. But in the era
of camera phones and Twitter, the fact that it still
(34:12):
happens astonishes me. I'm like, okay, yeah, i'd the era
of Joe Francis. Yeah, girls gone wild. Yeah. Um. So
this was really fun though, to look at the the
gender and racial intersections of Marty Graw because it's a
it's a whole lot of fun in general in terms
(34:32):
of just a wild event that I think everybody should
experience once. Um, but there's yeah, there's a lot of
rich history to it. There a lot of layers to this,
to the sill Kingcake and I mean I want to
hear listeners layers like I want to hear you tell
us about your Marty Grow experiences. So yeah, send us
all of your Marty Grow thoughts Mom stuff at Discovery
(34:55):
dot com. And hey, if you want a male Caroline
a Kingcake Kristen too, Yeah, I'll totally send it to
both of us. You can do that as well, uh
mom sa Discovery dot com. And for all of our
sources on this episode, you can head over to stuff
Mom and ever Told You dot com and click on
the podcast link and you will see the episode which
(35:18):
contains all of our sources for further Madigra reading. So
we've got a couple of letters to share with you
right now. In fact, I have a message here from
Mindy who wrote us to say thanks for the Understanding
miscarriage episode. It has been nine years and I have
(35:38):
two healthy children, but it sometimes causes a lot of heartache.
The podcast made it easier to talk to my best
friend about it, and we have had similar experiences. We
both feel like a huge load has been lifted and
we both feel a lot better. Thanks for being so amazing,
and thank you Mindy for your letter, and I'm so
glad it's sparked a conversation between you two. Well, I've
(36:00):
got an email here from Kara, and it's actually not
about a podcast that we've done, UM, but a Twitter
conversation that started a few weeks ago. And I asked
um Twitter followers at mom Stuff podcast about whether they
thought that quote unquote skinny shaming or thin shaming exists.
And this was in response to a question that we
(36:21):
had received on YouTube, and Kara not only tweeted back,
but she also sent a follow up email UM. And
and for the record, all of the Twitter responses that
I received were very much like, Yeah, I know this.
This totally exists, and we need to stop it as
much as fat shaming needs to stop. So, she writes,
I've been dealing with skinny shaming myself since I was
(36:41):
about fifteen years old. Ever since I hit puberty, I've
been tall, thin, and large breasted, and I've always been
criticized for it. I eat plenty of cheeseburgers, but I
also work out to stay active, and I also avoid
unhealthy foods, and on top of that, I am blessed
with a fast metabolism and quote unquote thin jeans. My
first experience with skinny mean came from my own grandmother,
who asked everyone in my family if I wasn't eating,
(37:04):
and whenever I went to the bathroom, she would follow
me and ask what I was doing because you thought
I was throwing up. Zero is my size because I
have a small waist and minimal hips doesn't mean that
anything is wrong. I believe if you're treating your body
with respect and living well, then your body is just right.
How many times have we heard that people come in
all shapes and sizes and this applies to everyone, no
(37:26):
matter how big or small. And I agree with Kara
and wanted to share this email to kind of open
up this discussion even more broadly, to see if we
should devote perhaps an entire podcast to this issue of
body shaming and how it often does get this divisive,
pitting fat shaming versus thin shaming, and wanted to get
(37:48):
listeners thoughts on that, so let us know. Mom Stuff
at Discovery dot com is where you can email us
or you can just also tweet us at mom Stuff
podcast or send us a message on Facebook as well.
And to find all things Sminty, all of our podcast,
blogs and videos, and all of our social media links,
you need to head over to our website It's Stuff
Mom Never Told You dot com for more on this
(38:15):
and thousands of other topics. Is it how Stuff Works
dot com
Hey, this is Annie and you're listening to stuff Mom
never told you. As of recording Marty Gras, A K
Fat Tuesday is fast approaching. Recently, as part of the
(00:29):
other podcast I do, which is called Sabor, you should
check it out, we went on a field trip to
New Orleans to learn all about the food and drink
and history of that city, which, as you can't imagine,
was a little overwhelming. Lots going on in New Orleans.
If you're interested, those episodes have started coming out, so
I I would highly recommend checking them out. We interviewed
(00:50):
eighteen plus people and one of the things that surprised
me the most um talking to all these people, was
hearing locals talk about Marty Gras and describing it as
this family, communal, neighborhood celebration. And I don't know about
you listeners, especially you listeners not from New Orleans, but
when I thought of Marty Graw prior to this, I
(01:11):
thought of people who had too much to drink and
women showing their breast for beads. And while that does exist,
Marty Gras is so much more than that. One woman
we spoke to, um she's She talked about her experience
in Crew Bacchus, which is a crew or kind of
a group organization based around Star Wars. That's fantastic. The
(01:34):
role of women, and of race and of gender, all
of these things have a huge part in Marty Gras.
For those celebrating, have a happy and safe Marty Gras.
For those who are not the same, goes for your Tuesday,
and for all of you, I hope you enjoyed this
classic episode. Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from
(01:56):
how stup works dot com. Hello and welcome to the podcast.
I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline and happy Marty Raw. Thanks
you too, Thanks Caroline. Have you ever been to Marty
Graw in New Orleans? I haven't, really, no, I haven't.
(02:16):
Let me tell you a girl, Um, I've I've been
to Marty Gras a few times now, and I've been
to New Orleans a number of times because one of
my best friends lives there. And when I the prospect
of going the first time, I was skeptical because I
was in college, but I was still like, I don't know,
it seems like an awful lot of boobs and and booze,
(02:40):
which makes me sound like a real fun college kid. Um,
but it's fantastic. You don't. If you don't want to
see any exposed breasts, you don't have to, or if
you do, you can. Um. But there was one quote
about Marty Gras by this woman named Carol Flake, who
has written a lot about the history Marty Graw, who says,
there is a play in New Orleans Carnival for anyone
(03:01):
who cares to join in. And that is completely my experience.
Um So, I was really excited when you were down
to do an episode on Marty gro and women Marty
gra Yeah. I mean, the stereotype is absolutely the stereotype
that you had as a college student, which it is
just like this debaucherous, like X rated boo bearing you know, beadfest.
(03:24):
How do you like that for a literation? Hey, hey, well,
and it can absolutely be as X rated and wild
as you want it to be. Um. And we should
also know that the Marty Gras does not just happen
in New Orleans. It also takes place in in Metai,
uh in Mobile, Alabama, and in smaller towns all around
New Orleans and in in the Gulf area. Uh So,
(03:48):
let's just let's just start talking about Marty graw because
we're going to get into some stuff about Marty Gras
and women in gender and it's not all going to
be about boobs. Well, starting off, Marty Grat really is
just this teeny tiny, little six weeks celebration that has
more than thirty thousand parade writers and fifty nine crews.
No big deal, yeah it. I was astounded to find
(04:11):
out that it has. For money, nerds out there, get this,
a one billion dollar economic impact on New Orleans. I
am not surprised. I'm not surprised either. I mean, it
attracts around four million tourists today, but even in the
nineteen hundreds it was a major tourist attraction. As early
as nineteen hundred there were a hundred thousand people, which
(04:32):
was a lot for that time, going to New Orleans
to see Marty Graw. Well, its origins are not only
international but ancient. It goes all the way back to
those silly pagans hanging out over in Europe and Rome. Basically,
(04:52):
Marty grad itself is a Christian holiday and popular cultural
phenomenon and tradition, but actually dates back to spring and
fertility rights like Saturnalia and luper Callia, which was, you know,
just like whatever, just like a circus like orgy. No
big deal, no big deal. But moving from the pagan
orgies to Christianity, Marty Grass Season officially kicks off on
(05:14):
January six with the twelfth Night Feast of the Epiphany,
which commemorates uh In in Christian lore, the day that
the Three Wise Men visited Jesus, which is which is
a little funny, mean, because all of this is so
steeped in religion, and the Catholic Church has like officially
been like, all right, you can, you guys can have
(05:35):
Marty Gras because Marty grad Day is not only a
legal holiday in New Orleans, but it also is the
day before Lent starts. Right, you gotta get all that
crazy out, that's right, gotta shake that crazy idea. But
those pagan fertility rites and rituals were incorporated into Christianity
because when the religion arrived in Rome, religious leaders were like,
(06:00):
we really can't like do away with everything, you know,
they're they're gonna get upset, So we'll just incorporate it
into this tradition so that people can, you know, have
these parties before this this season of giving things up.
Basically yeah, it's that that forty day period of penance
between Ash Wednesday and Easter Sunday, and Marty Grass spread
(06:23):
from Rome to other European countries, including France, Germany, Spain,
and England. And of course it is France that gave
us the name Marty Gras, which is French for Fat Tuesday.
Fat Tuesday. It's also known as Carnival uh and celebrated
all over the world, mainly in countries with Roman Catholic populations.
But I don't know many people who would you know,
(06:45):
opt out of celebrating Marty Gras. I mean, it's it's
a fun time for anybody. It is a fun time
in kincake is delicious, so good, and you know what
Marty Gras like. I don't keep up with when it
is because it's always different, and I just I'm always
excited for a kincake and then I just let passed
me by. No. I know, I have gotten the baby
though before in the Kingkake. Well then you need to
(07:06):
get on it and buy a King cake for me, okay,
just for you. But in the United States, I didn't
know this. This is really fascinating. The first American Marty
Gras is thought to have taken place on March third,
six nine, when French explorers Yberville and Bienneville landed in
(07:26):
what is now Louisiana. They were basically camped out around
fifty miles outside of modern day New Orleans, and they
were like halls of Mardi Grawl. Yeah, they actually dubbed
the spot where they landed point du maldi gra. How
do you like that for a non accent. Anyway, a
lot New Orleans and other French settlements begin marking the
(07:48):
holiday with street parties, masked balls, and lavish dinners. And
that sounds pretty much like Marty Gras today actually, But
important note, Caroline, the very first modern day Marty Gras
celebration outside of you know, Yberville and Bienville hanging out,
it did not happen in New Orleans. It actually happened
in seventeen oh three in Mobile, Alabama, which still has
(08:12):
a Marta Gras tradition. And uh side note for documentary
fans out there, check out the Order of the Myths.
It came out in two thousand eight, all about Marty
Gras and Mobile and how it is still highly racially segregated. Um.
But a little a little fun Marde Gras fact for you.
But moving back to New Orleans, when the Spanish took control,
(08:33):
they abolished Marty Gras. How rude? How how would do?
Who would do with that? Yeah? And the band stayed
in place until Louisiana became a U S state in
eighteen twelve, and then you start to see it coming
back in full force. And in seven you have a
group of students who put on these colorful costumes and
dance to the streets of New Orleans, basically imitating all
(08:56):
of the revelry they'd seen while they were in Paris.
And a decade later, the first recorded New Orleans Marty
Gras took place. Yeah. But then in eighteen fifties seven
you have the origin of the cruise and that's crew
with a K and an E on the end um.
And these are the organizations that you see today that
(09:17):
put together those massive floats. And it was all really
started by rich white dudes who were like, hey, let's
start up a secret society. Yeah, that sounds fun. So
in eighteen fifty seven, the secret society of New Orleans
businessmen called the Mystic Crew of Comus organized a tortulit
Marty grab procession and they had marching bands and rolling
(09:41):
floats and all of the floats were themed around mythology
and literature, which you still see a lot today. Yeah,
and we have Commas to thank, honestly for not getting
Marty Gras cand again, because leading up to this time
it was pretty debaucherous. The maskers were pretty violent. It
was just kind have a girl's gone wild horrible type
(10:03):
of thing. But Commas was known to have beautified the
parade ensuring that it would stick around. And we should
also note that one important part of the Marty Gras
tradition that it also emerges during that first parade are
the flambeaux and flambeau's French for flame, and these were
usually slaves or freemen of color who would march alongside
(10:26):
these rich white guys floats with torches to light up
these magnificent creations that they had made. And you still
see the flambeaux tradition today. And in we had the
very first all female flambeau troop marching alongside the Muses
(10:47):
parade and they call themselves the Glambeaux. Oh I love it. Yeah, Well,
you know, speaking of women and people on the sidelines.
We we can't talk about Marty Gras in this podcast
and not address that gender aspect because in the early days,
in the mid to late nineteenth century, women were totally
(11:07):
in the background. They were not participating in any way
on the floats and things like that, except for maybe
the queen. But these elite male crews had working class
women designing their fancy costumes and the floats for the parades,
while the upper class women also played supporting roles, but
this time actually helping their husbands, their rich husbands display
(11:28):
their mock royalty. Yeah, it's it's kind of funny that
with the history of Martie Gras, it all starts out
with men really wanting to play dress up and have
these fancy balls and and pretend to be kings and
dukes and whatnot. And at the at those early balls,
the men would wear these elaborate costumes, whereas the wives
(11:49):
would just swear, you know, typical gowns. Um Although in
eighteen seventy two, at the very first Rex Parade, which
today is I mean it's still one of the biggest
super rus as they're called, there were some women who
dressed up as men in order to march behind the parade,
gotta cross dress just to even participate. That's right. Well, yeah,
(12:11):
like you said, women weren't really allowed or you know,
it wasn't the tradition for women to dress up or
you know, masquerade. But in e you have a group
of upper class women who founded Lay myster Uses that's
not how you say it, um, a non parading organization.
So they were dressing up, but they weren't parading, and
(12:33):
their big thing was to host a ball that reversed
gender traditions. They alone were allowed to dress in costumes
and in masquerade, concealing their identities, and they got They
picked a queen who selected her own queen. But they
only had held two balls and disbanded in nine. Yeah,
you see a number of these all women crews kind
(12:54):
of pop up and then sort of dissolve. Um. So
for instance, um, you have the mid which came around
in nineteen o one, which were composed of debutantes, but
it only lasted until nineteen twenty, and then in nineteen
o six you have the Mystic Maids, in nineteen eleven
the Crew of Yami, and then in nineteen seventeen though
(13:15):
you have the Crew of Iris, which is still in existence. Yeah.
And they began by hosting small king cake parties, which
sounds like exactly what I want to go to. Uh.
And they now claimed to be the oldest and largest
of all the female carnival crews. Uh. In nineteen forty
nine they held an extravagant first ball, which was actually televised,
(13:37):
and ten years later, in nineteen fifty nine, they actually
started parading. Yeah. It took that long for them to
start having parades, which to me seems so strange because
I mean, I know that the balls are a big deal. Um,
but okay, ball's fine, but I'm all about the parade. Sure, exactly,
Candy and beads man, that's right. Um. And it, like
(13:59):
I said, it's still parades, but it's a day parade
that happens two weekends before Marty Grass, So it's not
exactly in the in a prime spot, Yeah exactly. Um.
But in the nineteen twenties you do start to see
the formation of several African American women's crews, including the
Red Circle, Young Ladies twenty three and the Mystic Crew.
(14:19):
And this is notable because for the you know, crews
like the Crew of isis Mystic maids, and I'm sure
laymis Dee uses they were not inviting to women who
were not white and not of the upper upper cross standing. Yeah,
the defense that everybody in these kind of upper class
(14:41):
crews give is that it's like, well, it's just it's
just me my friends, you know, I'm just I'm not discriminating.
It's just that I'm only inviting my friends and family.
But thankfully, in scrappy New Orleans tradition, that does not
stop other people from forming crews. So you do have
the emergence of those early UM African American all women
(15:01):
crews like the Young Ladies twenty three UM. But we
should note too that in N one, that is when
you have the first women's parade. Even though the Crew
of Iris is older, it's the Crew of Venus with
their inaugural pageant that kicks off women parading. Yeah, and
they did not have an easy time of it. They
(15:22):
paraded during a downpour and the crowd was hardly kind.
It was very hostile. And Arthur Hardy, who's a Marty
Gras historian, points out that, yeah, they got a lot
of publicity, but none of it was positive. Yeah, he
was talking to the alt Weekly in New Orleans, the
Gambit saying, it's interesting to look at the newspaper clippings
from back then because it was front page news, women
(15:45):
on floats, the apocalypse is near, and he goes on
to say, I'm exaggerating a little bit, but really not much.
But what's also notable about the Crew of Venus is that, yes,
these are all white women, all wealthy women, but a
lot of them too at this time are becoming businesswomen
in their own right, and so they're starting up their
(16:07):
own crews because they don't need men to pay for them.
So they're like, hey, listen, guys, y'all can go do
your you know, your rex thing, and we're going to
do ours. And in a way, like Hardie talks about
how it was sort of symbolic of early glass ceiling
tapping at least that was going on defying gender norms
(16:28):
at Marty Gras, go for it, go for it well
all the way. Flash forward half a century into two
thousand and that's when you have the Crew of Muses
form and they are the first of the contemporary all
(16:49):
female parade and crews to organize a night parade which
occurs on the Thursday before Marty Gras, which is a
much more prestigious spot than the Crew of Iris had. Yeah,
and and Muses is part of this more recent movement
among newer crews to be more open and egalitarian, and
they have that open membership like you and I could
apply online right now, Caroline, UM as a way to
(17:13):
democratize the crewise system and make it not just a
thing where it's only white rich people, but opening it
up to make sure that it's economically diverse and also
racially diverse. And um, I would also like to note
that the Muses have one of the best premium throws
as in the you know the stuff that they toss
passers by. Um. They collect high heels from their members
(17:38):
throughout the year and then leading up to the Martigrad
parade they decorate them and all sorts of fun things
and throw them out and and it's uh all. Some
have said that they're just waiting for a lawsuit because
you can imagine throwing high heels into a crowd of
drunk people might not be wise, but that makes it
so exciting when you have big throw like that. It's
(18:00):
similar to the Zulu Parade where the signature throws a
coconut right, which tends to dent cars and heads. Yes,
but yeah, yeah, a similar thing. But you know Robin Roberts,
who in her two thousand six book on the topic
really really dove into the gender of gender and history
of Mardy Gras, points out the significance of holding this
(18:21):
night parade. This is this is a big deal, especially
for an all women group, because she says that by
scheduling their parade at night, the crew of Muses are
self consciously challenging the domination of these elite male crews.
They're moving from the behind the scenes roles that women
traditionally filled during Marty Gras, they're getting out there on
(18:42):
the parade route and uh now organizing and performing center
stage in their own parade. Like you said, they don't
need no stinking man. Well, and they become so popular
that there's actually a wait list now to even get
into the parade. It's one of the large is to cruise,
and it's only one of two all female super cruise.
(19:04):
There's also one called Nicks in y X. But Muses,
at least from my experience, is extremely popular. People love
the Muses parade. It's a lot of fun, but it's
also I mean, it's also at night, and if you're
a night parade during Marty Gras, it's probably gonna be
a little bit more fun because, let's face it, you've
been drinking hurricanes all day. Lord, I just can't imagine
(19:25):
how much I would how much I would pass out.
But you're also weighted down by beads. I get bead
fever whenever I go, And at first I get really
excited and start trying to catch as many beads as possible.
But then once you have about five pounds of beads
around your neck, you're like, nothing, nothing else. Don't toss
me anything else unless it's a bloody Mary. And I
(19:47):
feel like I'm I'm painting quite a rosy picture of
Marty Gras. But there is one thing that certainly stands
out in the parade, and that is the fact that
even today, it is very segregated racially. Yeah, the effort
to actually racially desegregate and we're not even talking about
(20:08):
gender yet, we're talking about racial segregation. The effort to
desegregate these parades and parties was led by a long
time civil rights advocate Dorothy May Taylor. She was the
first woman elected to the New Orleans City Council in
nineteen eighties six and back in nineteen she proposed an
ordinance to desegregate the gentleman's luncheon clubs that had been
(20:32):
the public face of the Marty Gros cruise crews weren't
actually desegregated until nineteen and basically the reasoning behind this
was like, it wasn't so much that, oh, we have
to have fifty fifty, or we need these quotas to
make these crews racially equal. It had a lot more
to do with going all the way back to the
origin of the American Marty Grass. So the origin of
(20:55):
Carnival and Marty Grass in general was the pagan rituals, right,
But in America it had a lot more to do
with businessmen, white upper class elite businessmen getting together and
striking deals. And if those deals are closed off to
the bulk of society, including African Americans, it's kind of
not a level playing field. Yeah, I mean, because that's
(21:16):
one thing you might not think about as an outsider
looking in at Mardi Gras, that views crews throughout the
year are actually very powerful networking opportunities, especially if you're
in something like uh, you know, the the Rex Crew,
which costs a lot of money to join. But in
this whole talk of desegregation really set off a firestorm
(21:39):
among a lot of these crews, and in fact, Comus
and another crew called Momus canceled their parades that year
in protest. They were like, listen, no, we don't we
don't want to have to do this. And um, I
was reading a story before we came into the studio
today from the Times Picune. I think it was came
out last year looking back at the or maybe it
(22:03):
was from two thousand twelve, because I was looking at
the twenty years since desegregation debacle because people were so
panicked by it. And um, the takeaway from the story
was that a lot of the desegregation that has happened
has been a lot more organic through organizations like the
Muses starting up. And I believe Orpheus is a newer
(22:26):
crew that's a lot you know, it just accepts everybody.
So it's almost like with a new generation coming in
and taking over Marty Gras, they're just sort of doing
it in their own way and not paying as much
attention to the old guard, like White Secret society factor. Yeah. Well,
(22:47):
an earlier version of Taylor's ordinance had actually called for
an end to gender discrimination as well, but it was
thrown out because not only were men not excited about this,
but women were like, hey, hey, wait, wait wait, we
want our own things too, Like you know, women today,
especially like the Muses, are like, no, we don't want
to have to accept men, so we're fine if they
(23:09):
don't accept us, because we're not accepting them either. Yeah,
it's funny they want to keep their own floats to themselves.
And one woman made a point saying that I think
she was she's a member of the Muses, talking about
how listen, Marty grav is the time when you know,
things can get weird really fast, and if you have
I mean, they're not supposed to drink on the floats,
but it totally happens. And they're like if you mix
(23:32):
alcohol and say a husband and wife standing next to
each other and the husband tosses beads too an attractive
girl in the sideline, she was like, it's just that's
just one example of how things could get uncomfortable, right,
And Arthur Hardy that Marty Gras historian UH talked to
a lot of these women, and he said, look, the
ladies crew said, we love men, but they are not
(23:54):
going to dress with us or being our floats. They
can just meet us at the end of the parade.
And so that ordinance was amended to allow for single
gender cruise gender exclusion. A okay on all sides that
it was that racial aspect that was the one that
was more contested. But we also need to talk about
how African Americans in New Orleans have also made their
(24:15):
own Marty Gras traditions. While this is happening, that that
initiative in wasn't like, oh, no, you know, there's nothing
for them. No, They've been doing their own thing for
a while, right, like the Marty Gras Indians who began
appearing in the late nineteenth century, and the first group
was the Creole wild West from the seventh ward. And
(24:37):
there's some origin theories about these participants, one of which
is that the groups are honoring Native Americans who helped
hide runaway slaves from bounty hunters and slave masters. Another
theory is that the Buffalo Bills Wild West show that
traveled through New Orleans in the late nineteenth century inspired
African Americans to dress as Indians. Others that were interviewed
(24:58):
in the news talked about how because a lot of
their costumes kind of harken back to like an Afro
Caribbean heritage or a West African heritage, that they are, yes,
honoring Native Americans, but also honoring their own West African heritage. Yeah.
And I mean then their costumes, which a lot of
them make themselves, are incredible in the level of like
(25:21):
craftsmanship and detail that goes into it. Um. But we've
also got to talk about the Crew of Zulu because
Zulu is a tough parade to make because it's early
in the morning and if you've been out at a
night parade, that can be hard to make, but it's
so worth it. The Crew of Zulu started out as
(25:42):
Zulu Social Aid and Pleasure Club, and apparently it was
essentially a group of like African American men who got
together to sort of parody these rich white guys secret
societies are like, oh, yeah, we're gonna do this to
look at these white guys wanting to make themselves kings
for a day. Yeah. And what's funny about the Crew
of Zulu is they are dressing in black face wearing
(26:04):
grass skirts and coconut bras, things that like, you know,
if if one of these elite white men and the
Rex Crew, for instance, were to do it would be
incredibly racist. Yeah, I mean, basically, what they're taking is
all of the racism that has been directed at them
and making a complete mockery out of it, right. And
(26:26):
uh So they came together and had marched together as
early as nineteen o one, but the first official Zulu
parade happened in nineteen o nine. And a few years
later we have the emergence of the million Dollar Baby Dolls.
And this was a group that I hadn't heard about before,
but it was an organization of African American women who
(26:47):
were a lot of them were working in the Storyville district,
which is no more, but it was a Storyville was
New Orleans red light district. Yeah, and so they sort
of used their profits from working in that red light
district to compete with other African American prostitutes on Mardi Gras.
And the origin of the name and their costumes came
(27:12):
from reclaiming what pimps called them basically, which were which
was baby doll. And so they donned short satin dresses,
stockings with garters and bonnets. But they paired that, you know,
play on dressing like baby dolls against bold and provocative
public behavior for at the time that not only exploited stereotypes,
(27:33):
but empowered them, made them visible. It brought them out
of that red light district where they were basically segregated
in their own black red light district, and brought them
out into the streets to parade. Yeah, and uh recently
Kim marie Vez wrote an entire book about this called
The Baby Dolls Breaking the race and gender barriers of
the New Orleans Mardi Gras tradition. And I don't think
(27:54):
the baby Dolls they aren't a crew necessarily, they don't
have their own float or anything like that, but they
march through the parades um. And in her History of
the Baby Dolls, Voz talks about how they later collected
dues and help dances to raise money for their baby
doll costumes, which possibly made them the first organization in
(28:15):
fact of parading women, predating that I believe crew of
Venus Parade that we mentioned earlier, and she talks about
how at the time high society white women's carnival organizations
held balls, but they didn't parade, So the baby dolls
were kind of the first and a lot of them
(28:36):
have resurfaced. A lot of women in New Orleans are
are kind of reforming these groups as a nod to
their heritage. Yeah, and and in one less nod again
to the African American traditions around Marti Gras. One of
my one of my favorite things too are the second
line parades that happen. And those are just the brass
bands that will march along behind the floats or alongside
(28:59):
the floats and really keep spirits high. I know, I
love those marching bands. I say, like I've been to
New Orleans, but I like them when I see them
on television exactly. Well, Caroline, now we've got to talk
about what I have a feeling a lot of podcast
listeners have been waiting for in this episode, which is
digging into the issue of boobs and beads. And we'll
(29:21):
talk about that right after we come back from a
quick break. But now, Caroline, boobs and beads. Yeah, I
would think, you know, if I, you know, as someone
who's never been to New Orleans, Marty Gras, I would
(29:45):
think that's all there is to it. That's that's what
people are doing morning, noon and night. And a lot
of women in New Orleans are very upset that this
is perceived as an entrenched tradition. Yeah, if you go
to more of the neighborhood Marty gross celebrations and go
and see like the larger parades, you're not going to
see a lot of nudity because, I mean there are
(30:08):
also kids everywhere up and down the streets and it's
more of a family kind of thing. It's really once
you get into the French Quarter and go to Bourbon
Street where you have all the balconies that you see
all the boobs and some penisils and butts. Yeah, women
writing on the website Marty Gros New Orleans dot com
(30:29):
blame it on basically some spring break college age tourists
who you know, end up getting fall down drunk on
Bourbon Street, losing their inhibitions and flashing various genitalia at
people on the floats. Yeah. But uh well, there wouldn't
be any floats in the French Quarter. This is all
(30:50):
people in the balconies with beads yelling down to people,
And I mean every now and then you have people
in the street yelling up. But yeah, it's it's a
sight to see in a sight that unfortunately you sometimes
can't forget. Um. But there is a paper called Ritual
Disrobement at Marty Grass Ceremonial Exchange in Moral Order by
(31:12):
a pair of researchers at l s U, which I
was very excited to find because I was like, yes,
there is an academic paper on boobs and beads at
Marty Gras. And they think though that the nudity began
in the mid seventies, largely because the French Quarter had
become sort of a haven for gay men and during
(31:32):
Marty Gras they would get really wild and the tendency
flashing their penises. Um. But they say that it really
didn't become a widespread feature until the nineteen eighties. So
he had big bangs and boobs coming out of this time. Yeah,
And they do they talk about the gender and social
hierarchies and do note that it was both men and
(31:54):
women ritually disrobing, but women disrobing far more often than men.
And what what these researchers did the It's the creepiest
methodology I've ever read, because they essentially set up cameras
all around the French Quarter to capture moments of disrobement,
and they found that in terms of catching beads without
(32:16):
flashing something, guys were getting beats seventy percent a time,
not haven't shown anything women. And this is French Quarter specific,
which makes a difference. But for women it was only
twenty two point five percent of the time. And it's true.
And if I walk down Bourbon Street, no, for the
record podcast listeners, no, I all of my beads have
come from non disrobement, keeping my shirt on. But if
(32:40):
I walked through Bourbon Street, now you're not going to
get anything. You're not showing showing off your gals. Well,
you know, I think that's good to hear. Yeah, I think.
I think the history of Marty Grass is so rich
and colorful and amazing. I I love that it came
from pagan orgies that were incorporated into Christianity and now
(33:04):
it's just like this long stretch of a good time
before you go into Lent. Speaking of those pagan rituals,
you could say that perhaps the nudity that you see
today is merely a manifestation of that uh shrum and
kilborn those l s U researchers right that, owing to
the continuing significance of gender differences in sexuality, women sometimes
(33:27):
adopt the identity of ritual objects who perform for the
veneration of the crowd and hence bear their breasts for beads.
So like, we're almost like floats too, exactly, we have
to we have two floats. We have two floats. Yeah,
but I would like to underscore on behalf of all
the New Orleans locals out there that yeah, you don't, ladies,
(33:51):
you don't have to show you boobs for beads. Yeah,
just go go and have a good time and have
a good time. And you know what, Hey, if you
if you, if you end up in the French Quarter
and you do and you want to do it, Okay,
we're not going to judge you. But in the era
of camera phones and Twitter, the fact that it still
(34:12):
happens astonishes me. I'm like, okay, yeah, i'd the era
of Joe Francis. Yeah, girls gone wild. Yeah. Um. So
this was really fun though, to look at the the
gender and racial intersections of Marty Graw because it's a
it's a whole lot of fun in general in terms
(34:32):
of just a wild event that I think everybody should
experience once. Um, but there's yeah, there's a lot of
rich history to it. There a lot of layers to this,
to the sill Kingcake and I mean I want to
hear listeners layers like I want to hear you tell
us about your Marty Grow experiences. So yeah, send us
all of your Marty Grow thoughts Mom stuff at Discovery
(34:55):
dot com. And hey, if you want a male Caroline
a Kingcake Kristen too, Yeah, I'll totally send it to
both of us. You can do that as well, uh
mom sa Discovery dot com. And for all of our
sources on this episode, you can head over to stuff
Mom and ever Told You dot com and click on
the podcast link and you will see the episode which
(35:18):
contains all of our sources for further Madigra reading. So
we've got a couple of letters to share with you
right now. In fact, I have a message here from
Mindy who wrote us to say thanks for the Understanding
miscarriage episode. It has been nine years and I have
(35:38):
two healthy children, but it sometimes causes a lot of heartache.
The podcast made it easier to talk to my best
friend about it, and we have had similar experiences. We
both feel like a huge load has been lifted and
we both feel a lot better. Thanks for being so amazing,
and thank you Mindy for your letter, and I'm so
glad it's sparked a conversation between you two. Well, I've
(36:00):
got an email here from Kara, and it's actually not
about a podcast that we've done, UM, but a Twitter
conversation that started a few weeks ago. And I asked
um Twitter followers at mom Stuff podcast about whether they
thought that quote unquote skinny shaming or thin shaming exists.
And this was in response to a question that we
(36:21):
had received on YouTube, and Kara not only tweeted back,
but she also sent a follow up email UM. And
and for the record, all of the Twitter responses that
I received were very much like, Yeah, I know this.
This totally exists, and we need to stop it as
much as fat shaming needs to stop. So, she writes,
I've been dealing with skinny shaming myself since I was
(36:41):
about fifteen years old. Ever since I hit puberty, I've
been tall, thin, and large breasted, and I've always been
criticized for it. I eat plenty of cheeseburgers, but I
also work out to stay active, and I also avoid
unhealthy foods, and on top of that, I am blessed
with a fast metabolism and quote unquote thin jeans. My
first experience with skinny mean came from my own grandmother,
who asked everyone in my family if I wasn't eating,
(37:04):
and whenever I went to the bathroom, she would follow
me and ask what I was doing because you thought
I was throwing up. Zero is my size because I
have a small waist and minimal hips doesn't mean that
anything is wrong. I believe if you're treating your body
with respect and living well, then your body is just right.
How many times have we heard that people come in
all shapes and sizes and this applies to everyone, no
(37:26):
matter how big or small. And I agree with Kara
and wanted to share this email to kind of open
up this discussion even more broadly, to see if we
should devote perhaps an entire podcast to this issue of
body shaming and how it often does get this divisive,
pitting fat shaming versus thin shaming, and wanted to get
(37:48):
listeners thoughts on that, so let us know. Mom Stuff
at Discovery dot com is where you can email us
or you can just also tweet us at mom Stuff
podcast or send us a message on Facebook as well.
And to find all things Sminty, all of our podcast,
blogs and videos, and all of our social media links,
you need to head over to our website It's Stuff
Mom Never Told You dot com for more on this
(38:15):
and thousands of other topics. Is it how Stuff Works
dot com
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