July 31, 2019 • 60 mins
For many LGBTQ folks, the personal takes on an element of the political when it's time to get dressed. In this classic episode, Caroline chats with designer Leon Wu, style expert Sonny Oram and beauty editor Aja Aguirre about the growing queer-fashion landscape and the importance of social media in helping shape communities and identities.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey, this is Annie and this is Math and Welcome
to Stuff I Never told your production of I Heart
Radio and Stop Works. For this this Saturday, we thought
we would rerun this classic episode that Caroline did around
(00:28):
queer fashion as activism, and she sat down with a
bunch of really rad people and discussed what that what
that looks like? Yes? Um, And so we hope you
enjoy Welcome to Stuff MOB Never Told You from how
stupp works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.
(00:55):
I'm Caroline and I'm Kristen, and today we're continuing our've
dived this week into discussing queer fashion, but this time
we're doing it with a couple of special guests who
we first started speaking with well via email. During south
By Southwest, we try to get in touch with some
(01:17):
awesome folks in the queer fashion community, but you know,
south By Southwest it's so busy, and we missed them,
We missed their panel, and so we were really lucky
and managed to nab them for a fantastic interview that
we hope you guys will enjoy. And so today you
will be hearing from Leon Wu, the founder and CEO
(01:38):
of Sharp Suiting, Sunny or Um, the founding editor of
style website Queer, and Asia Igire, the beauty editor of
Auto Straddle, and you mentioned south By Southwest Caroline and
that we unfortunately were not able to go to their panel,
which we did want to attend because it was about
queer style, visual active m and Fashions Frontier. So, uh,
(02:04):
this group and also Um the designer who started dapper q,
which is the leading style website for masculine presenting women
and trans identified people, were talking all about this concept
of queer style as an art form, and also the
new fashion frontier and and another branch of this too
(02:25):
is how mainstream fashion has kind of been co opting
a lot of queer fashion. So um, I think it's
such a great opportunity to get this diverse range of
perspectives and one that we started hearing from actually from
our listeners in response to our maternity Clothes Fashion History
(02:48):
episode a while back. Yeah, that's right. We heard from
some great fashion leaning listeners after that episode who had
created maternity lines specifically for uh, butch lesbians or masculine
identifying people, or really anyone who felt that they didn't
quite fit into that frills and polka dots maternity market
(03:11):
out there, and they stressed how important it was to
represent those people whoever, those people are who who are
often left behind in conversations about fashion or just in
looking at fashion in general. And so that's why we
were really excited to speak with this group today because,
like Kristen said, they do have a diverse array of
(03:33):
backgrounds from being active in design to being active in
the media talking about fashion. So in this conversation, which
is really a continuation of our last podcast, which was
about how Prince revolutionize the concept of androgynous fashion, so
you should absolutely go back and listen to that for
(03:53):
I mean a Prince, but also a little bit of
a primer on queer fashion. UM. But we're going to
be talking with first of all, Leon Wu. Like you said,
he's a founder and CEO of Sharp Suiting, which is
an a gender luxury clothing brand that creates custom and
ready to wear clothing, accessories and lifestyle products. And Sharp
(04:15):
Suiting is especially busy right now because swimsuit season is
upon us and it's actually the first clothing company to
focus on butch swimwear. UM and as part of creating
this ready to wear line and also custom clothing. They
created a high tech body measurement system to better fit
(04:39):
clothes on masculine identifying people not just butch, lesbians or transman,
but also sis men as well. So I mean talk
about taking all sorts of body types and presentations into account. Yeah,
And Sunny Lauram is a queer style expert who founded
that style website Quere that I mentioned in tw then
(05:00):
and they're the first trans blogger to be sponsored by
top Man. And Sunny described their goal in founding queer
as fighting oppression through fashion because they said fashion can
absolutely be a form of activism and this is something
that we'll talk with all three guests about in more
(05:21):
detail in the episode. Well, and that also echoes our
episode from a while back on so called faction and
the plus size blogging movement that really started a number
of years ago and it's coming to its own um
quite recently. Um. And then finally we have Asia Agrey,
who's the beauty editor at auto Straddle, which is a
(05:42):
site that we have referenced on so many stuff I've
never told you episodes, And in addition to auto Straddle,
Asia also leads the style blog Fit for fem and
as an advocate for queer women of color. Yeah, so
this is such a fantastic conversation, if do say so myself,
thanks to our really fascinating and talented guests. So should
(06:05):
we let the people hear it? Absolutely, let's roll to
get started. I'd love to have you guys just introduced
yourselves and tell our listeners what you do. So, Sonny,
we'll start with you. Hi. I'm Sonny or might run
the fashion website quare q w E a R. And
(06:28):
it's a style website for people who transcend social norms
through fashion, performance and gender expression. And I'm based in Boston.
I am Asia Giray. I am the current beauty editor
at Auto Straddle, which is the largest independent news media
website for queer women as well as the gosh. I
(06:48):
guess to call me the founding editor of Fit for
a FM, which I've been working on since two thousand
and eight as a as a place and source of
inspiration for fens to gather and get inspiration and just
kind of find their own people when it comes to
style and navigating the world as a fem My name
is Leon Woo and I am the founder and CEO
(07:10):
Sharp And that's sharp with an E at the end
uh suiting, and we make classic and modern clothing for
all genders. Okay, so if you could also now fill
me in on your backgrounds how I'm really curious about
how you guys each ended up in the fashion and
(07:30):
fashion adjacent realms. Sunny, do you want to start? Yeah?
So I kind of fell into it. Um. I was
doing music in college, and then when I graduated, I
started exploring my identity and style more and I kind
of just fell into it. I discovered fashion blogging, and
(07:50):
I decided to try to create a space that was
uniquely queer where we could all see each other and
where I could share my outfits and I was discovering
I loved and then it just it just grew from there.
I just kept kept blogging, and people wrote in and
asked questions, and people started writing for us, and it
grew into what it is today. Did you find that
(08:13):
people really felt that they needed what you were putting
out there? Yeah? People were immediately drawn to it because
there was so little, um advice for for queer people. Um,
I mean, for for me representing people who are female
assigned birth, but trying to find man's clothes that fit
that was really like, um, that was a need. I mean,
(08:34):
we didn't have companies like Sharp yet, so people just
wanted any advice they could get. What about you, Asia,
How did you end up in the fashion realm? Kind
of a similar story? Um? In two thousand eight, what
I started style blogs or both new and really sort
of blowing up an biguitus everywhere. And I didn't see
(08:56):
myself in any of them. I didn't. I didn't see
a lot of women of color to start, and I
didn't really see any that were queer women, especially queer
women of color. And I've been the kind of person
that people always have been like, I love what you're wearing,
I love your makeup, I love this and that, and
who came to me for advice and wanted me to
(09:17):
go shopping with them? Um? And so I thought, like,
I love this and I should just put it out
there into the world, um and see what happens. I
didn't have any real kind of like lofty expectations. I
just wanted to like stake out my place in the
world of style blogs because it seemed like something really
(09:38):
fun and cool and and I thought it would be great,
um if I did it. Then maybe other women would
do it, and that definitely happened, especially in San Francisco.
A way back in the day you had UM Lesbians
and s f UM, which had a couple of other
offshoots that just became sort of a very photo heavy
(09:58):
representation of queer women UM and queer and trance people
actually and what that style looked like at the time.
And then from there there were a few other ones
that were more plus sized fems and more focused on
firms of color. UM. So it was really great to
see myself become not the only one out there UM.
(10:21):
And that just over time, with the fem conferences that
used to go on, and UM auto straddle coming into
play and working on things with them and writing for
them a little bit, just all kinds of snowballed into
this awesome thing where another beauty editor, why do you
think a blog like fit for fem or auto straddle?
Why is it important to show feminine fashion that's different
(10:44):
from like more traditional quote unquote beauty magazines like Glamour?
How did how did those differ from the more mainstream
feminine fashion? Right, and not to insinuate that straight feminine
women are just sort of blindly doing what they're told
or anything. But I think especially for fems, and this
(11:04):
was really highlighted in the post that Sunny did featuring
fourteen fans of color that was just incredible. Um. Being fem,
as a queer woman or a trans woman is so
radical in its reclamation of femininity and in sort of
hijacking it away from a very heterosexual world, in a
(11:27):
very sort of binary world that has very very strong
and pervasive ideas about what women are supposed to look
and act like. Um. And it's interesting being a mother
of a straight teenager as well, watching how that influence
in the media and the media representation of women in
general is so negative and so laden with with just
(11:51):
these horrible ideas that that tell women what they're supposed
to look and act like. And I feel like when
as a queer woman or a trans woman, you embrace
all of that immenity um, both inside and outside Esthetically,
it's it says a lot. It's it's a very political statement,
and it is really difficult to navigate the world in
(12:13):
that way because at the first glance, the first take
is sort of like, this is for male consumption, this
is for the male gaze, um, and constantly fighting against
that is you have to be really strong to do that. Yeah,
I definitely want to put a pen in the political
statement comment for sure. Um. But Leon, I want you
(12:35):
to tell our listeners how you got involved in the
fashion world. Yes, so ever since I was little, I've
always have a strong desire or love for menous where
um like, I wanted to wear my dad's clothes growing up. Um,
I would actually literally sneak into his closet and try
on his clothes, put on his ties, you know, always
(12:56):
watch him tie and tie in the mirror. I was
just fascinated by it. And you know, I'd read kind
of g Q like on my owner in secret as
I was growing up. And um, you know, when I
was twenty one, just out of college, I joined a
draging troop called the Lost Boys in Los Angeles, and
(13:16):
through there, you know, I kind of learned the art
of of styling or fashioning masculinity on stage. I quickly
became the one who was the organizer of all costumes
for my troop. Um. That later extended throughout the years
and I joined another troop called the Beauty Kings of
(13:40):
Los Angeles as well, and became a co producer of
a show that's a queer gender bending show called Bent.
So you know that all of that has kind of
progressed up through about a year ago when Sharp got
crazy busy, um in a good way. Uh. And you know,
in terms of Sharp and how that started, you know, UM,
(14:02):
I did have a fashion design concept right before I
went to business school called Fade Designs, and we focused
on kind of butched swimwear as an alternative means of
of you know, wearing uh swimsuits that did not fit
into the very binary um swimwear uh industry. So uh,
(14:25):
that was about to go into production, and then instead
I went to business school and that was super busy
and all I could do is focus on networking and
meeting my classmates and recruiting there um and studying. Uh.
And then after business school, you know, I got kind
of comfortable my rather corporate job right after. But then
(14:46):
you know, more and more of my friends are getting
married or attending weddings where they wanted to wear suits.
And I had made some connections in school with Taylor's
in various cities internationally. Um, during my travels. It was
just something I was checked out when I was on
a business school trek or trip with my classmates, I
(15:06):
would talk to different Taylor's UM. I talked to Taylor's
in Savile Row, in London, UH, in Beijing, Shanghai, Hong Kong,
New York UH, and you know something, I noticed that
there was always a specific process that they all did
as a rather archaic um UH segment of fashion, and
(15:28):
I wanted to kind of revolutionize that. I also knew
a special way and how to measure people who identified
similar as me, like people who identify as either masculine
of center, masculine leaning, or trans men. And I knew
how to fit clothes on people who identified exactly this way.
(15:49):
So UM I started Sharp actually as a side operation,
and UM started making suits for friends and myself. Again,
wedding was a big reason for doing that, and within
the first year of UH existing as a business, we
sold a hundred suits. And that's when I kind of
(16:11):
took the leap of faith to leave my very financially
secure corporate job and jump full time into Sharp. We
had a Kickstarter that we planned for within the first
two months, and we raised six nine K, exceeding our
goal of six c K, and after that we raised
some more funds from friends and family, and you know
(16:32):
the rest is kind of it just kind of took
off and and we're heading in a direction where uh,
we are being all inclusive. Uh not just two people
in my immediate community, but anybody who wants to wear
sharp cloth clothing. So you'll see a lot of campaigns
this year where we are branching out a little bit
more um mainstream and trying to get them to be
(16:55):
aware of, uh you know, what the brand is and
what it was inspired by. Okay, well so and really
anybody can pick up this question who wants to go first?
But I'm really interested in how uh you guys feel
the queer fashion scene has changed, evolved and grown from
(17:16):
when you first developed an interest in close and fashion, um,
all the way up to when you started working professionally
and and now today. I mean I've seen a huge
evolution just from when I started queer and it's now
been almost five years. Even looking for people to feature,
it was hard to find people who really had their
(17:37):
own sense of style, um, because when when there's so
little representation of queer style, you, um, it's hard to
figure out how to address I mean, like you're there's
like Shane from The L Word, and then you know
Ellen Degenerous, and it's just like these a few celebrities
here and there. And then I mean, of course we
(17:59):
had had Asia already for for fem style, but yeah,
it's just people didn't really know how to dress and
we're asking lots of questions, simple questions like how do
I match my belt to my shoes or something. And
as time went on, I started to see a growth
in everyone. Um they started experimenting with patterns, with different styles,
(18:22):
and it just seemed like the queer community through social
media was starting to develop a sense of style. And
it's just been really amazing to watch everyone grow. Every year,
someone comes out with something different and it's just really amazing.
I um, Leon, when you did all the drag troops,
was that like the early two thousands, mid mid two thousand's. Yes, Yeah,
(18:46):
I feel like I came out way too late in life.
It's one of my big regrets. I didn't know, but
I feel like I came out in the very early
two thousand's and just sort of belossomed a time through
the mid to to late two thousand's when something just
really special was happening in the queer queer world in
(19:07):
terms of just like creativity and performance and music and
and that's so much of that manifested in style. Um.
I feel so lucky to have been there for all
of that, and I miss There's a lot I miss
about those days. There's a lot that I'm happy to
leave in the past. But I just I don't know
what's happened, And I think that there's a lot of
(19:29):
really incredible stuff happening now. But it's almost like, because
there was so much that we still were working towards
and fighting for as a queer community at large, those
spaces and that community was sacred in a different way,
and and because it was almost denser, it was more
(19:52):
powerful in those sort of create creative realms. Not that
that doesn't exist now. I just feel like it's become
more dilute across board, which is great because it means
that it's reaching more people and people have more options
and more roads to go down. But yeah, it's it's
been a very interesting shift, I think the last ten
ten or so years. Yeah, Um, I have to agree
(20:15):
with both Sonny and Asia. I have seen a lot
of developments since the two thousand's. Um. But I feel
like the biggest movement is definitely happening right now. I
mentioned earlier that I started I tried to start a
design concept right before I headed off to business school,
which is around two thousand and five two thousand six,
(20:37):
Me and another friend who was very passionate about queer
fashion of Vanessa Craig actually co produced what could have
been one of the first butch fashion shows, although I'm
sure other things were happening in various cities. Um. And
you know, it's mostly our friends in the community that
came out to support that, and it was a really
great event that I felt very fulfilled with. But it
(21:01):
was hard to bring that outside of the scope of
the community. And I think right now, because things are
really versioning, is it is a time to to do that.
And so that's what I'm trying to do with Sharp
is basically bring social impact through commerce and expand a
little bit further so people are more aware of these
(21:22):
other identities. UM. And there's so many, as you can see,
with all the various queer fashion brands that are out there, UM,
I can probably count at least you know, thirty, probably
fifty of them out there in the US and Canada
and UM, all of these different brands in a sense
(21:46):
represent a different type of identity in in the queer
fashion space, and you know, uh, people are more interested there.
I think people are wanting to see more than the
standard UM offering that's currently in the fact fashion industry
and UM. You know, I'm just kind of writing this
wave and seeing where it goes and finally having a
(22:07):
chance to to fulfill my passion wi Lee on how
big is the queer fashion designing community and what is
funding like? I mean, is it the same for more
quote unquote mainstream fashion. Yeah. So I will start out
by saying that UM, finding capital UM for fashion brands
(22:28):
is particularly hard in general if you're just looking across
the various UH industries for startups. UM. That said, being
a queer fashion brand adds another layer of challenges to it.
I think that people are more technology focused, So the
fact that Sharp is moving more UM and opening up
(22:50):
our line of business to e commerce certainly helps. But
if you're just a brick and mortar fashion brand, it's
very very difficult. I mentioned before that we raised we
surpassed our goal for Kickstarter, and that's because we have
enormous support from the community, and that was really exciting
(23:10):
for me to see. Um, we had some support and
we raised over a hundred k from friends of family,
and now we're expanding to you know and in a
sense cold pitching to the average person. And that is
definitely experienced because, um, I have to sit there and
explain exactly how we were inspired and what the background
(23:31):
of our story is, and then I have to kind
of bridge the gap and say why are how are
we going to become successful as you know any x
y Z fashion brand out there? Um, So that's definitely
the challenges that I'm facing right now. But I think, um,
you know, with our expansion, which you're gonna see on
(23:52):
e commerce, uh, that I think we have a real
shot at it. So I'm excited to see where that goes.
(24:13):
Is the e commerce queer fashion industry and those sales?
Are they driven by social media? Do you think kids
who are I mean, I say kids, but it's really
multiple generations, um, is it? You know? Kids who are
finally maybe coming out and they are looking to blogs
and websites like yours and saying, oh my gosh, I
(24:35):
don't have it in my x y z small town,
but I can at least get it online. Are you
hearing from people like that? Yeah? So I think you
said keyword, which is kids. We definitely have a lot
of kids following all of us, UM, myself, Sonny and Asia.
And that's great because then we get to to let
them know as they're growing and maturing as adults that hey,
(24:56):
there's a space for you in the future. UM. Again
though their kids, so they can't really afford you know,
UM items that are several hundred dollars, which you know,
some of our suits do cost that much money. UM.
But the hope is to stick around until that group
can actually partake and and be purchasers of this these items. UM.
(25:20):
But a lot of uh I think more effective UM
marketing goes into digital advertising right now, UM, and you
will see the older crowds and Facebook. So we have
a campaign that's gonna be coming on Facebook soon. UM.
And just a lot of connections or word of mouth,
especially for somebody that's being referred to as Taylor so
(25:43):
to speak. They want to know that that somebody else
that they know, uh really well has a nice personal
connection with their tailor. And it's referral based that way. So,
Sonny and Asia, have you guys heard from members of
the younger generation about fashion and and sexual identity and
sexual orientation. Yes, Um, I hear from kids all the time. Um.
(26:08):
A lot of the stories are heartbreaking, but some are
more uplifting. Um. A lot of kids who are struggling
with their identity and feel like they need to fit
into a box. Um they say like, I think, I
think I'm attracted to girls, but I don't know, like
you know, they get all confused and it's really cute. Um. Um.
(26:30):
And lots of kids right in with issues with their
school or their parents in terms of like not letting
them dress the way they want to. So, um, I've
given a lot of I've tried to give a lot
of advice to those people and um. But yeah, just
a lot of a lot of kids are also able
(26:51):
to express themselves more now and they have all these
new terms for how they identify and that's really cool
to see. Yeah, it's it's a little bit bizarre. Are
to have started fit for a FIM when I was
in my twenties and not in my thirties, um and
seeing that shift because I don't know necessarily that my
audience's age has reflected my own over I mean, only
(27:11):
on the Internet can you be called like too traditional
and old school and high concept in the same sentence.
Um So, what I get mostly at Fit for a FM,
because it's um so specific, is women who come to
me and they say, when I came out, when I
realized I was when I realized that I was queer.
(27:33):
I thought that that automatically meant I had to cut
my hair, I had to put on men's clothes, I
had to be more androidness or butchet up. And it
never really felt like me. I just felt like this
was the only way to be seen um as as
gay or lesbian are queer, and ultimately they stumble upon
Fit for a FM and they think to themselves, whoa
(27:56):
like I can do this? This this person is clearly
doing this, and then you know, finding things that I
connect to or or other people. It's a thing. It's
totally a thing, and suddenly it becomes an option for
women who, do you know, want to reclaim their femininity
and be out there and the worlds of them Leon,
did you have anything else to add to that, um No,
(28:17):
non particular. I think that sums it up well. You guys, Asia,
you directly touched on this earlier, but you guys have
also touched on the idea of fashion as a part
of activism and of making your identity clearer to yourself
clear to other people. So do you feel that fashion
(28:41):
is a branch of activism and and how how is
it a branch of activism? Well, I mean, I think
we're seeing with North Carolina that the battle is not over. Um.
There are still really really hard times being fought across
this country for a lot of folks who just fighting
for the right to exist. And human beings are very visual,
(29:05):
and so when being who you are visually and and
being identified puts you at risk or means that your
rights can be trampled on or you can be discriminated against,
and there's no repercussion for that. That that's definitely activism
to be who you are and to be out and
sort of not compromise on that front. And that's really
(29:29):
powerful and scary for a lot of people, um. And
the more you can just support them and help give
them courage and help them to be authentic and true
to themselves, that's a really privileged place to be in.
For me personally, um. Just like Asia was saying, it's
really hard to just move about the world. UM. I
guess this is a podcast, so you can't see what
(29:50):
I look like. But I identify as non binary and trans,
and you know, sometimes I pass as mails sometimes I don't,
especially probably over the podcast, I sound more like I
have a high voice. But so I just have to
kind of every time I get dressed, deal with what
people's reactions are going to be, and still try to
(30:11):
be true to myself. Like right now, I have a
butt in my hair, which makes people read me as
more female, but sometimes if I put on a bow tie,
I can pass. So you never really know what's going
to happen, and it's always kind of an adventure going
into the bathroom. So yeah, I think for in terms
of just the community at large, even people who aren't
(30:31):
non binary, UM, I think it's really important to recognize
that we that the fashion industry puts UM standards on
all of us, and even if you identify UM along
the binary UM. Just like Asia was saying, if you
are dressing it like if you're a woman dressing in
(30:52):
a body positive way, like your plus size, and you're
showing off your Middrift Like that is activism in itself
because you're saying that you are proud of who you
are instead of trying to hide it. Yeah. I think
that visual activism is a big part of of what
Sharp does. And there's still a law of work to
be done. I mentioned during the South By Southwest panel
(31:16):
that we had suited on the red carpet Phyllis Naggi,
who was the screenwriter of Carol as she was up
for a nomination. She was very visible and you know, yeah,
she looked great on the red carpet. Uh. She took
a chance by doing that, and she was very brave.
She's definitely a pioneer in in queer fashion because of that. UM.
(31:38):
We also flew to Monroe, Louisiana to deliver a tuxedo
for a high school student who was initially banned from
UM uh her ability to wear a tuxedo to her
own prom. When that band was lifted, then we were
there to provide her a suit and she got to
wear to a prom and have fun with her friends.
(32:00):
We're still, you know, always looking to see, you know,
how we can provide back to the community and um,
you know, advance kind of uh this these new styles
and identities into the fashion world. Um so yeah, I
think there's still a lot of work to be done.
(32:21):
Even within the queer community, there's a bunch of sub labels. Um,
even being a transman or transgender individual, there's still sub
labels like transfeminine and trans masculine And people have asked me,
you know, like which one do you identify with? And
I'm like, isn't interesting How we're trying to get away
from labels, but we give up more and more labels.
(32:43):
And I think, you know, the consensus is once we
have so many labels that everyone has their own label,
then maybe we won't need them anymore and a person
will just be a person because you can, ideally, I mean,
you can essentially have um a different label to per
day to right you think about it, you know, I
think weren't for us to be able to label ourselves
(33:05):
or not label ourselves as we wish? Yeah, it's a choice. Yeah,
do you think how long do you think it's going
to take or do you think it's going to happen?
But how long do you think it's going to take
for more mainstream media outlets to catch up with that idea?
Of not everybody is on this binary guys. Not everybody
(33:26):
uses the same one or two labels. Do you see
that happening right now or do you ever see it
happening at all? I feel like it's starting to trickle
in a little bit. But and I think especially with
like younger characters in the media who are trying to
figure themselves out. And I definitely know with younger people
(33:49):
being the mom of a teenager, like, they just don't care.
That's that's my take. They just seriously don't care, and
they're not really interested in categorizing, which is fascinating because
I feel like human beings, like your brain, just before
you can even consciously think about it, wants to categorize.
It wants to organize things and to meet little boxes.
(34:11):
Um for whatever reason, I'm sure people who studied that
sort of thing of the name for it. But um, yeah,
it's really interesting to see how that is gonna kind
of become more and more prevalent in media representation. We're
already seeing some mainstream designers Alexander Wayne Gucci showing androgynous
designs on the runway. Um and um, you know, the
(34:36):
the kind of the slim fit style that we're seeing
a lot in the mainstream is is very androgynous. Um uh.
You know, it kind of takes on more of a
diamond shape, and that is especially for hiding curves or
or body parts that are more defining as masculine versus feminine. Um.
So we are seeing that, and it is, in my opinion,
(34:58):
different from from the nineties campaign that you saw a
lot with Calvin Klein and that sort of androgyny. This
is more of, uh, this is something that's rather than oh,
I'm going to pick that label because they're going through
an androgyny trend, this is more of a we're gonna
include this going forward kind of a fashion movement. So
(35:20):
I do feel that, you know, main street is catching
onto to quote fashion as well. What oh, Sonny, did
you have something ab oh sure? Um yeah. Well, as
I mentioned in the panel to um, I do, I
I appreciate that the industry is doing a lot of
(35:41):
unisex uh androgynous lines, but at the same time, it's
very limited to white, essentially female assigned birth skinny people.
So I'm really hoping that we can expand that to
show that an androgyny can be for anyone of all
body types and um, I'm just personally, I'm really hoping
(36:04):
someday that that stores won't feel such a need to
separate things into women's and men's sections because we're all
shaped so differently that it's really I mean, uh, like, yes,
men maybe taller in general or or wider, but it's
just there's so there's so much diversity in body type
(36:26):
among all of us that I really don't think we
need to separate it nearly as much as people think.
And I feel the most free if I can just
shop um when all the clothes are just together, because
then I'm like like those like those teenagers, I'm just
not caring about labels and I'm just having fun. Yeah,
(36:47):
it is interesting to watch. Kristen and I did an
episode on essentially feminism in fashion, but from the perspective
of feminism being used as a trend in the argument
of well, is this a negative because feminism is being
used or is it a positive because at least feminism
(37:08):
is getting a platform and it's part of a larger discussion.
Do you feel like something similar is happening with more
androgynous looks or with um fashion that's sort of for everyone.
Do you feel like androgyny is a trend or do
you feel like more mainstream fashion is really starting to
adopt more of a fashionist for everyone ethos And I
(37:30):
think people are taking these terms like androgynous, tomboy, um
a gender, and a lot of brands are just kind
of throwing it around and it's really just code for like,
here are some clothes that look really good on skinny
people and don't particularly you know, have a gender to them.
(37:50):
Often they're more masculine leaning actually, So yeah, I do
think it's it's a trend that people are kind of using,
and I wish people were a little more careful with
their words because, um, there are some people who really
do identify as a gender or androgynous um and these people,
(38:13):
most of them aren't represented by this group. Yeah. I
almost feel like if to be a little bit of
a music nerd, if you go back into like punk
and new wave and those times and like the late
sixties through the mid eighties, I mean you had I
feel like you had almost true like a gender stuff
(38:35):
where um like adam Ant would wear you know, roughly
shirts and kind of very tight, hip huggy sort of
pants and a lot of a lot of detail, UM,
and you then you had just sort of the straight
up and down and again this goes to what you're
talking about, sunny, look, that's just like a plain white
(38:55):
shirt and you kind of st Laurent has actually been
doing a lot of stuff that looks like that. UM.
But at least that gives more of a balance to
where you see masculine people wearing sort of more feminine
or fussy or frilly clothing rather than just everybody kind
of meeting in this this so called androgynous to find
(39:17):
middle middle of the road, which isn't really because it
doesn't incorporate anything on the feminine side of the spectrum, right.
You know, UM, A gender is not just about a
bunch of butches and suits. It's UM. It's playing with
different types of not just tailoring, but also draping UM
and really kind of not using gender basically as a
(39:42):
way of styling. It's UM using clothing in a way
that UM doesn't have anything to do with that. If
you look at the origins of tailoring, they did initially
start tailoring, uh for people who were male or or
for men, and this is UM back in the day
and during the Renaissance era, everyone was wearing kind of um,
(40:07):
draping kind of clothing and then Tayloring came into play.
This is around the rise of Christianity, and um, you know,
it was only for men at that point. I think
we're at a point in fashion where it doesn't really matter.
You can um play with different shapes and um uh
(40:27):
you know. That's another reason why I chose suits, is
because I'd like to play with suits that typically are
very masculine type of symbol and clothing and and just
be able to suit all types of people women, um uh,
those who are female identified, draping it off the shoulders,
(40:48):
wearing them with shorts, you know, I mean, just playing
around with it, and we're finding that a lot of
people are actually liking these styles. Um So yeah, sorry,
that wasn't in very a direct answer, but it's I
could talk about this and I didn't want to go
into like a ten minute feel you know, but hopefully
that gives kind of an idea of you know, uh
(41:13):
a gender and how that pertains to fashion. I feel
like it's not only gender in terms like androgeny to
(41:36):
get thrown around for and and feminism that get thrown
around for sort of trendy fashion reasons, but also issues
of race and ethnicity. I'm interested in your take on
where the place is for women of color in or
you know, feminine identifying people in this discussion about queer
(41:59):
fashion in because, like you were saying, Sonny for instance,
so much of that quote unquote androgyn his fashion does
tend to focus on skinny white people. So what's here?
What's your take on the space for feminine or female
identifying people of color. One thing that we talked about
and kept going back to you and ourselves by Southwest
panel was give people who aren't represented more seats at
(42:23):
the table. Everybody agreed on that. Everybody was on the
same page about if you want to if your mainstream
fashion brand and you want to have a play at androgyny,
or you want to incorporate more women of color on
your runways or just people of color on your runways,
even bring more of those people to the table. You can't,
(42:46):
you know, work on those concepts and have it to
be divorced from from those folks having representation and say
and what that should look like, what that should feel like,
how that should be marketed. Um. So I think that's
just one of the key pieces. UM. I just worked
on a story UM at Auto Straddle that featured Cora Harrington,
(43:07):
who runs the lingerie addict UM her addict rather and UM,
it's a it's a great her blog is amazing. It's
just all it's a it's a lingerie drain. Basically, just
look at this wonderful, beautiful, incredible lingerie. And so she
worked with some other people on this idea of like,
let's let's do our own photo shoot representing these spring
(43:30):
summer trends um and work with little indie brands um
to just sort of put out into the world like
what this should look like, what lingerie marketing campaigns should
look like if they wanted to be representative of a
diverse group of people, and they had an older woman,
they had Cora, who's a black woman, UM, and she's
(43:51):
queer and she's gorgeous, but and she also rock natural
hair um. And then there was a non binary queer
woman as well, UM. And there was one other one
other galic it's escaping me right now um. And so
they came together and they did this incredible, really beautiful
(44:11):
photo shoot. UM. But even then, because Cora is slender
and has insane bone structure. Um. You know, some people
are like, how, well, how is this different? How is
she different from the norm? And it's because she's a
queer woman, and she's a queer woman of color, and
she's darker than most black women that are featured in
(44:34):
lingerie campaigns, and she's a little bit more her physique
is a little bit more muscular than is usually considered
acceptable and lingerie campaigns. I mean, I could go on
and on and on about what makes her unique and special. Um.
But it's interesting to have that conversation, and it's wonderful
to see people sort of taking it into their own
(44:56):
hands and putting what they want to see out into
the world. Yeah. That's one of my goals with Quaire
is to just provide this platform for everyone to express themselves.
And I try to keep keep myself out of the
equation as much as possible. So if it's um, if
(45:16):
it's a column written by a queer woman of color, UM,
just making sure that it's really all hers and then
I'm just you know, pressing publish. UM. So that's that's
just really important to our values at Queer that we
give everyone a voice and that it's not dominated by
UM any one voice, you know, UM as sharp as
(45:41):
a business. UM, we do have to UM. It's it's
a very tricky balance, I think you know, UM, as
we've you know, bottom line is going to determine whether
we survive or whether I can continue to do this
or not. UM. So you know in our next campaign, UM,
you will see UM very slender cysts I guess, so
(46:05):
to speak, Caucasian guy wearing um our suits. And that
is because we are wanting to be all inclusive to
you know, the average guy who's sitting behind the computer,
who UM really wants to buy something that's more fashion
forward and UM also you know, maybe hipster and as
(46:25):
cool with you know that we're inspired by the l
g B, t Q UH community. UM So in the
product shots you will see that. But in all my
editorials on the runway, I'm always including all UM ethnicities,
all body types, all UH genders UH to you know,
as kind of an ode to who we are and
(46:46):
where we came from and who we're going to continue
to be. UM. But you know, again with marketing and
product marketing, we have to kind of take care of
our bottom line, so to speak. So it's gonna be
a tricky balance, but I hope I hope the community understands,
because um, it's it's better for a brand like Sharp
to be around someday then for us, you know, not
(47:07):
to exist at all, and then there's no work that
I can really do at that point. Yeah, in terms
of the community understanding, UM, I'm always I'm in a
unique position to get to talk to people like Yu
Leon who um are running your business and have all
these things you're dealing with, and then the community who's
having all of this feedback that's often negative, and I'm
(47:27):
trying to, like, you know, help balance um explaining to
the community like no, I'm serious that these people have
to charge this much like they worked all the numbers.
This is just what they have to charge. You know,
We're We're sorry it's too much for you, you know
that kind of thing. So um, So yeah, hopefully we
(47:48):
can bridge and understanding amongst each other. Yeah, it is
a delicate balance. UM. I know. I talked to Nick
Casey a lot about his business with his footwear she Wear.
It's like, um, well, if you want something that's made
uh with this sort of level of authenticity and quality,
(48:08):
then it's going to cost as much money. UM. Also,
just bear in mind that we are dealing with the
supply chain that is also very gendered and binary, and
so if we want to change things slightly, that costs
us money and so unfortunately that comes out in our
retail pricing. And you know, we've got to kind of
stick together to support each other. Um. You know, uh,
(48:31):
it's it's better, you know, to kind of pay a
little extra um for brands like this to be around,
and then when we get to a point where we've
changed things all the way vertically, then the prices can
come down right right. I feel like it's just something
that takes time, and a lot of folks who are
(48:51):
consumers simply don't understand because they're not they're not in
your physician, or they're not well verse, or they don't
know a super ton about the background of what it
takes to do that. You see that in like making
vegan clothing or vegan products or ethically sourced things. It
is expensive. There's a reason that fast fashion is fast fashion,
and it's so so so cheap, and it's very easy
(49:15):
to ignore the fact of why that is. Um. But
it's impossible to ignore as a as a business person
and as someone who is very intentional about buying ethically
sourced things or about supporting a queer business. Um, I mean,
I think those are excellent points in terms of balancing
the business against the constant sort of social outcry for no.
(49:39):
But I want, I want my fashion, and I want
it now. Um. I mean, I think it's an excellent point,
and I want to sort of start to wrap it up.
I've kept you good people too long, but I want
to get from each of you, uh, some advice if
you haven't. For young listeners out there, um, whether they're
(50:00):
queer or not, maybe just kids who feel like they're
different and outside of the mainstream, what is your advice
for them? As really fabulous fashion people, two kids who
maybe feel just a little different, Sunny, Let's start with you. Yeah,
just um it's cheesy, but just be yourself, I mean
(50:22):
you you really Everyone experiments to figure out what feels right.
So just try things on, you know. I I've had
a lot of embarrassing fashion moments in my day and
it was all part of the process of um, finding
my style, and I'm still discovering it. So just try
to be free, uh, and just surround yourself by friends
(50:43):
who support you in whatever stage you're in and who
don't make you feel like you have to conform to anything.
I agree. Uh, please don't go to some of my
older posts, but you could if you wanted to to
see how my style has evolved over the year. It's
just the nature of getting dressed as a human being.
(51:04):
Things cycle in and out and and it's exciting. It's
exciting to take part of those things. It's exciting to
go against the grain, and how you feel is more
important than anything else. UM. I would say one of
the more interesting things that I discovered moving from the
Bay Area to Boston four years ago was how reticent
(51:25):
people are to buy second hand or thrifted or clothing
that's that's not brand brand new. And I feel like
for a lot of young people who maybe don't have
access to a lot of money and can't spend what
they would ideally like to to achieve the style that
they want to represent or experiment or play with. UM,
(51:45):
don't be scared of that if there's nothing weird about it.
And I can't believe I had to say that to
so many clients as a personal stylist, but sometimes it's
one of the only ways to get the look that
you want from older clothing or are just there's no
way you can buy retail off the shelf, but you
can absolutely get that if you go and hunt for it,
um in the bins or at someplace like Buffalo Exchange
(52:05):
or crossroads where that stuff is a lot more accessible
than it is brand new. So just have fun and
don't be script out by any of that stuff. And yeah, nice,
thank you so much. UM. Could you go down the
line again and tell our listeners where they can find
you online and where they can find out more about
(52:26):
your work. Sonny, let's start with you. Yeah, so my
website is queer Fashion dot com. It's spelled q w
e a R fashion dot com and that's where you
can see everything we've done. You can find my style
blog Fit for a f M at Fit for a
FM dot com, um, just like it sounds, and auto
(52:46):
Straddle dot com is where you can find a lot
of my style and beauty coverage. Um, and that is
also just how it sounds. And if you want to
follow me on Instagram or Twitter, they're my heal is
dear jones e j O n E s E Y.
I know Instagram is super popular, so cool and uh
for sure We've got spring summer collection that's launching in
(53:08):
the next month or two and you can find that
at www Dot Sharp s h A r P E
Suiting s U I T I n g um dot
com or find us on Twitter, Instagram, uh, Facebook, and
the Twitter and Instagram is at Sharp Suiting. Great. Thank
you guys so much. It was such a pleasure talking
(53:30):
to you. I could honestly talk to you like for
three more hours. But thank you for having us. Yeah,
thank you so much for having us. And I just
want to thank Leon, Sunny and Asia so much for
(53:51):
joining us. I really think that our listeners will identify
with a lot of what they said, and I was
so pleased to be able to represent these fashion viewpoints
on our show. And I'm also looking forward to hearing
from listeners who are in the style and design fields,
M because I'm sure that you have even more insights
(54:13):
to talk about this, and also listeners within the l
g B t Q community. I mean, do these issues
resonate with you? Have there been challenges finding the fashion
that really fits who you are both inside and out? Um?
So mom stuff at how Stuff Works dot com is
(54:33):
where you can send all of your emails. Of course,
you can always tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or
message us on Facebook, and we've got a couple of
messages to share with you right now. Well, I have
a letter here from Olivia and Kristen. She has some
questions in here too for us to address. Okay, okay,
(54:56):
so Olivia says, first, I just want to say thank
you for doing what you do. I love listening to
your thoughtful conversations on the podcast while I'm doing everything
from working to cleaning, and it totally brightens my day.
I was listening to your most recent episode about the
lesbian wage bump, and the idea that many lesbians never
count on being attached to a male breadwinner really got
me thinking, I, a straight white CIS lady, have more
(55:19):
or less always counted on being in a partnership with
a male breadwinner. I knew from a very early age
that I wanted to get married someday, and I figured
my marriage would work the way my parents does. But
my mom lends a significant hand since she's back to
work after taking more time off when my sister and
I were little. I've never been encouraged to make being
a primary breadwinner a priority. This is presumably in part
(55:41):
because I'm female, but also because I come from a
family of creatives who always put following your passions before
making money. My decisions about my career have been made accordingly.
As a working artist, I'm much more concerned with the
career trajectory that will fuel my passions than with what
will be a stable source of income for a future family.
This feels like a betrayal of both feminism and my boyfriend.
(56:03):
I dislike the fact that I mentally bank on the
safety net when thinking about my future, and it feels
terribly unfair that I'm primarily concerned with chasing my passions
while my boyfriend has to balance that with having a
career stable enough to support any family we might eventually have,
though he assures me it's totally fine. All this to say,
I was wondering if you could do an episode on
(56:24):
reconciling one's radical feminism with being in typically quote unquote
female positions. Does this kind of thing grind other women's gears?
How many of us are in those positions by choice?
How do you navigate being a feminist while pursuing your dreams?
On another person's dime. I mean, I think that that
is all about partnership, gender aside, you know. I mean
(56:49):
there are times and long term relationships when one person
kind of has to carry more of the weight and
it evens out most likely it's point. And I don't
think that that it necessarily means that you're being a
bad feminist. Yeah, And and the same sentiment goes for
what job you choose. I mean, if you wanted to
(57:11):
be a prima ballerina, I'm thinking of like something super
you know, traditionally feminine. That doesn't matter if that is
your passion. And it would be one thing if you
were trying to take advantage and and get a leg
up over your partner. But it sounds like you guys
are in really open, clear honest communication with one another
(57:35):
that you really want to pursue your passion and your boyfriend,
who sounds like will become your husband one day or
you know, you guys are just in it for the
long haul. Um, it sounds like he's on board with
this too, And so no, like Christen said, I don't
think that makes you a bad feminist. And I don't
think that if you're in a traditionally uh female coded
(57:57):
or male coded line of work, or a female dominated,
male dominated line of work. I don't think either one
speaks to what kind of feminist you are. I don't
think that your passion or your skills speaks to feminism.
I think you can be a feminist and be in
a super traditional feminine role, female role, or you could
(58:18):
be a construction worker. You know what I mean, right?
I mean because I think we also conflate feminist and
feminine and consider that you know things that are feminine
or somehow the antithesis of feminism, and that's not the
point at all. So you know your own motivations and
it sounds like they're pure, and let your partner support you,
(58:41):
because that's what partnership is all about. So thanks for
your question. Um. I've got another letter here from Natasha
about our Lesbian wage Gap episode, and Natasha writes, I
listened to the Lesbian Wage Gap episode today while I
was out in the yard doing work, and I'm just
really glad you discussed it as a queer men who
grew up in a rural area and is continuing to
(59:02):
work at agriculture, and we'll live in a rural area
all my life. I really appreciated you talking about the
members of the queer community who live in rural areas
and the jobs we do. There's a big myth that
there's no queer people in rural areas and we all
want to flee to the cities. So even your discussion
of poverty and the difficulty living and working in rural
areas is super appreciated by me, because so often we
(59:24):
don't exist in anything. I've really been enjoying listening to
your podcasts as I'm walking fields all day. So thank
you and keep up the good work. Well. Thank you, Natasha,
and for all of our listeners. If you want to
send us and let our mom stuff at how stuff
works dot com is where you can do that, and
for let all of our social media as well as
(59:46):
all of our blogs, videos and podcasts with our sources
so you can learn more about queer fashion and our
fabulous panelists today. Head over to stuff Mom Never Told
You dot com For more on this and thousands of
other topics. Visit how stuff Works dot com.
Hey, this is Annie and this is Math and Welcome
to Stuff I Never told your production of I Heart
Radio and Stop Works. For this this Saturday, we thought
we would rerun this classic episode that Caroline did around
(00:28):
queer fashion as activism, and she sat down with a
bunch of really rad people and discussed what that what
that looks like? Yes? Um, And so we hope you
enjoy Welcome to Stuff MOB Never Told You from how
stupp works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.
(00:55):
I'm Caroline and I'm Kristen, and today we're continuing our've
dived this week into discussing queer fashion, but this time
we're doing it with a couple of special guests who
we first started speaking with well via email. During south
By Southwest, we try to get in touch with some
(01:17):
awesome folks in the queer fashion community, but you know,
south By Southwest it's so busy, and we missed them,
We missed their panel, and so we were really lucky
and managed to nab them for a fantastic interview that
we hope you guys will enjoy. And so today you
will be hearing from Leon Wu, the founder and CEO
(01:38):
of Sharp Suiting, Sunny or Um, the founding editor of
style website Queer, and Asia Igire, the beauty editor of
Auto Straddle, and you mentioned south By Southwest Caroline and
that we unfortunately were not able to go to their panel,
which we did want to attend because it was about
queer style, visual active m and Fashions Frontier. So, uh,
(02:04):
this group and also Um the designer who started dapper q,
which is the leading style website for masculine presenting women
and trans identified people, were talking all about this concept
of queer style as an art form, and also the
new fashion frontier and and another branch of this too
(02:25):
is how mainstream fashion has kind of been co opting
a lot of queer fashion. So um, I think it's
such a great opportunity to get this diverse range of
perspectives and one that we started hearing from actually from
our listeners in response to our maternity Clothes Fashion History
(02:48):
episode a while back. Yeah, that's right. We heard from
some great fashion leaning listeners after that episode who had
created maternity lines specifically for uh, butch lesbians or masculine
identifying people, or really anyone who felt that they didn't
quite fit into that frills and polka dots maternity market
(03:11):
out there, and they stressed how important it was to
represent those people whoever, those people are who who are
often left behind in conversations about fashion or just in
looking at fashion in general. And so that's why we
were really excited to speak with this group today because,
like Kristen said, they do have a diverse array of
(03:33):
backgrounds from being active in design to being active in
the media talking about fashion. So in this conversation, which
is really a continuation of our last podcast, which was
about how Prince revolutionize the concept of androgynous fashion, so
you should absolutely go back and listen to that for
(03:53):
I mean a Prince, but also a little bit of
a primer on queer fashion. UM. But we're going to
be talking with first of all, Leon Wu. Like you said,
he's a founder and CEO of Sharp Suiting, which is
an a gender luxury clothing brand that creates custom and
ready to wear clothing, accessories and lifestyle products. And Sharp
(04:15):
Suiting is especially busy right now because swimsuit season is
upon us and it's actually the first clothing company to
focus on butch swimwear. UM and as part of creating
this ready to wear line and also custom clothing. They
created a high tech body measurement system to better fit
(04:39):
clothes on masculine identifying people not just butch, lesbians or transman,
but also sis men as well. So I mean talk
about taking all sorts of body types and presentations into account. Yeah,
And Sunny Lauram is a queer style expert who founded
that style website Quere that I mentioned in tw then
(05:00):
and they're the first trans blogger to be sponsored by
top Man. And Sunny described their goal in founding queer
as fighting oppression through fashion because they said fashion can
absolutely be a form of activism and this is something
that we'll talk with all three guests about in more
(05:21):
detail in the episode. Well, and that also echoes our
episode from a while back on so called faction and
the plus size blogging movement that really started a number
of years ago and it's coming to its own um
quite recently. Um. And then finally we have Asia Agrey,
who's the beauty editor at auto Straddle, which is a
(05:42):
site that we have referenced on so many stuff I've
never told you episodes, And in addition to auto Straddle,
Asia also leads the style blog Fit for fem and
as an advocate for queer women of color. Yeah, so
this is such a fantastic conversation, if do say so myself,
thanks to our really fascinating and talented guests. So should
(06:05):
we let the people hear it? Absolutely, let's roll to
get started. I'd love to have you guys just introduced
yourselves and tell our listeners what you do. So, Sonny,
we'll start with you. Hi. I'm Sonny or might run
the fashion website quare q w E a R. And
(06:28):
it's a style website for people who transcend social norms
through fashion, performance and gender expression. And I'm based in Boston.
I am Asia Giray. I am the current beauty editor
at Auto Straddle, which is the largest independent news media
website for queer women as well as the gosh. I
(06:48):
guess to call me the founding editor of Fit for
a FM, which I've been working on since two thousand
and eight as a as a place and source of
inspiration for fens to gather and get inspiration and just
kind of find their own people when it comes to
style and navigating the world as a fem My name
is Leon Woo and I am the founder and CEO
(07:10):
Sharp And that's sharp with an E at the end
uh suiting, and we make classic and modern clothing for
all genders. Okay, so if you could also now fill
me in on your backgrounds how I'm really curious about
how you guys each ended up in the fashion and
(07:30):
fashion adjacent realms. Sunny, do you want to start? Yeah?
So I kind of fell into it. Um. I was
doing music in college, and then when I graduated, I
started exploring my identity and style more and I kind
of just fell into it. I discovered fashion blogging, and
(07:50):
I decided to try to create a space that was
uniquely queer where we could all see each other and
where I could share my outfits and I was discovering
I loved and then it just it just grew from there.
I just kept kept blogging, and people wrote in and
asked questions, and people started writing for us, and it
grew into what it is today. Did you find that
(08:13):
people really felt that they needed what you were putting
out there? Yeah? People were immediately drawn to it because
there was so little, um advice for for queer people. Um,
I mean, for for me representing people who are female
assigned birth, but trying to find man's clothes that fit
that was really like, um, that was a need. I mean,
(08:34):
we didn't have companies like Sharp yet, so people just
wanted any advice they could get. What about you, Asia,
How did you end up in the fashion realm? Kind
of a similar story? Um? In two thousand eight, what
I started style blogs or both new and really sort
of blowing up an biguitus everywhere. And I didn't see
(08:56):
myself in any of them. I didn't. I didn't see
a lot of women of color to start, and I
didn't really see any that were queer women, especially queer
women of color. And I've been the kind of person
that people always have been like, I love what you're wearing,
I love your makeup, I love this and that, and
who came to me for advice and wanted me to
(09:17):
go shopping with them? Um? And so I thought, like,
I love this and I should just put it out
there into the world, um and see what happens. I
didn't have any real kind of like lofty expectations. I
just wanted to like stake out my place in the
world of style blogs because it seemed like something really
(09:38):
fun and cool and and I thought it would be great,
um if I did it. Then maybe other women would
do it, and that definitely happened, especially in San Francisco.
A way back in the day you had UM Lesbians
and s f UM, which had a couple of other
offshoots that just became sort of a very photo heavy
(09:58):
representation of queer women UM and queer and trance people
actually and what that style looked like at the time.
And then from there there were a few other ones
that were more plus sized fems and more focused on
firms of color. UM. So it was really great to
see myself become not the only one out there UM.
(10:21):
And that just over time, with the fem conferences that
used to go on, and UM auto straddle coming into
play and working on things with them and writing for
them a little bit, just all kinds of snowballed into
this awesome thing where another beauty editor, why do you
think a blog like fit for fem or auto straddle?
Why is it important to show feminine fashion that's different
(10:44):
from like more traditional quote unquote beauty magazines like Glamour?
How did how did those differ from the more mainstream
feminine fashion? Right, and not to insinuate that straight feminine
women are just sort of blindly doing what they're told
or anything. But I think especially for fems, and this
(11:04):
was really highlighted in the post that Sunny did featuring
fourteen fans of color that was just incredible. Um. Being fem,
as a queer woman or a trans woman is so
radical in its reclamation of femininity and in sort of
hijacking it away from a very heterosexual world, in a
(11:27):
very sort of binary world that has very very strong
and pervasive ideas about what women are supposed to look
and act like. Um. And it's interesting being a mother
of a straight teenager as well, watching how that influence
in the media and the media representation of women in
general is so negative and so laden with with just
(11:51):
these horrible ideas that that tell women what they're supposed
to look and act like. And I feel like when
as a queer woman or a trans woman, you embrace
all of that immenity um, both inside and outside Esthetically,
it's it says a lot. It's it's a very political statement,
and it is really difficult to navigate the world in
(12:13):
that way because at the first glance, the first take
is sort of like, this is for male consumption, this
is for the male gaze, um, and constantly fighting against
that is you have to be really strong to do that. Yeah,
I definitely want to put a pen in the political
statement comment for sure. Um. But Leon, I want you
(12:35):
to tell our listeners how you got involved in the
fashion world. Yes, so ever since I was little, I've
always have a strong desire or love for menous where
um like, I wanted to wear my dad's clothes growing up. Um,
I would actually literally sneak into his closet and try
on his clothes, put on his ties, you know, always
(12:56):
watch him tie and tie in the mirror. I was
just fascinated by it. And you know, I'd read kind
of g Q like on my owner in secret as
I was growing up. And um, you know, when I
was twenty one, just out of college, I joined a
draging troop called the Lost Boys in Los Angeles, and
(13:16):
through there, you know, I kind of learned the art
of of styling or fashioning masculinity on stage. I quickly
became the one who was the organizer of all costumes
for my troop. Um. That later extended throughout the years
and I joined another troop called the Beauty Kings of
(13:40):
Los Angeles as well, and became a co producer of
a show that's a queer gender bending show called Bent.
So you know that all of that has kind of
progressed up through about a year ago when Sharp got
crazy busy, um in a good way. Uh. And you know,
in terms of Sharp and how that started, you know, UM,
(14:02):
I did have a fashion design concept right before I
went to business school called Fade Designs, and we focused
on kind of butched swimwear as an alternative means of
of you know, wearing uh swimsuits that did not fit
into the very binary um swimwear uh industry. So uh,
(14:25):
that was about to go into production, and then instead
I went to business school and that was super busy
and all I could do is focus on networking and
meeting my classmates and recruiting there um and studying. Uh.
And then after business school, you know, I got kind
of comfortable my rather corporate job right after. But then
(14:46):
you know, more and more of my friends are getting
married or attending weddings where they wanted to wear suits.
And I had made some connections in school with Taylor's
in various cities internationally. Um, during my travels. It was
just something I was checked out when I was on
a business school trek or trip with my classmates, I
(15:06):
would talk to different Taylor's UM. I talked to Taylor's
in Savile Row, in London, UH, in Beijing, Shanghai, Hong Kong,
New York UH, and you know something, I noticed that
there was always a specific process that they all did
as a rather archaic um UH segment of fashion, and
(15:28):
I wanted to kind of revolutionize that. I also knew
a special way and how to measure people who identified
similar as me, like people who identify as either masculine
of center, masculine leaning, or trans men. And I knew
how to fit clothes on people who identified exactly this way.
(15:49):
So UM I started Sharp actually as a side operation,
and UM started making suits for friends and myself. Again,
wedding was a big reason for doing that, and within
the first year of UH existing as a business, we
sold a hundred suits. And that's when I kind of
(16:11):
took the leap of faith to leave my very financially
secure corporate job and jump full time into Sharp. We
had a Kickstarter that we planned for within the first
two months, and we raised six nine K, exceeding our
goal of six c K, and after that we raised
some more funds from friends and family, and you know
(16:32):
the rest is kind of it just kind of took
off and and we're heading in a direction where uh,
we are being all inclusive. Uh not just two people
in my immediate community, but anybody who wants to wear
sharp cloth clothing. So you'll see a lot of campaigns
this year where we are branching out a little bit
more um mainstream and trying to get them to be
(16:55):
aware of, uh you know, what the brand is and
what it was inspired by. Okay, well so and really
anybody can pick up this question who wants to go first?
But I'm really interested in how uh you guys feel
the queer fashion scene has changed, evolved and grown from
(17:16):
when you first developed an interest in close and fashion, um,
all the way up to when you started working professionally
and and now today. I mean I've seen a huge
evolution just from when I started queer and it's now
been almost five years. Even looking for people to feature,
it was hard to find people who really had their
(17:37):
own sense of style, um, because when when there's so
little representation of queer style, you, um, it's hard to
figure out how to address I mean, like you're there's
like Shane from The L Word, and then you know
Ellen Degenerous, and it's just like these a few celebrities
here and there. And then I mean, of course we
(17:59):
had had Asia already for for fem style, but yeah,
it's just people didn't really know how to dress and
we're asking lots of questions, simple questions like how do
I match my belt to my shoes or something. And
as time went on, I started to see a growth
in everyone. Um they started experimenting with patterns, with different styles,
(18:22):
and it just seemed like the queer community through social
media was starting to develop a sense of style. And
it's just been really amazing to watch everyone grow. Every year,
someone comes out with something different and it's just really amazing.
I um, Leon, when you did all the drag troops,
was that like the early two thousands, mid mid two thousand's. Yes, Yeah,
(18:46):
I feel like I came out way too late in life.
It's one of my big regrets. I didn't know, but
I feel like I came out in the very early
two thousand's and just sort of belossomed a time through
the mid to to late two thousand's when something just
really special was happening in the queer queer world in
(19:07):
terms of just like creativity and performance and music and
and that's so much of that manifested in style. Um.
I feel so lucky to have been there for all
of that, and I miss There's a lot I miss
about those days. There's a lot that I'm happy to
leave in the past. But I just I don't know
what's happened, And I think that there's a lot of
(19:29):
really incredible stuff happening now. But it's almost like, because
there was so much that we still were working towards
and fighting for as a queer community at large, those
spaces and that community was sacred in a different way,
and and because it was almost denser, it was more
(19:52):
powerful in those sort of create creative realms. Not that
that doesn't exist now. I just feel like it's become
more dilute across board, which is great because it means
that it's reaching more people and people have more options
and more roads to go down. But yeah, it's it's
been a very interesting shift, I think the last ten
ten or so years. Yeah, Um, I have to agree
(20:15):
with both Sonny and Asia. I have seen a lot
of developments since the two thousand's. Um. But I feel
like the biggest movement is definitely happening right now. I
mentioned earlier that I started I tried to start a
design concept right before I headed off to business school,
which is around two thousand and five two thousand six,
(20:37):
Me and another friend who was very passionate about queer
fashion of Vanessa Craig actually co produced what could have
been one of the first butch fashion shows, although I'm
sure other things were happening in various cities. Um. And
you know, it's mostly our friends in the community that
came out to support that, and it was a really
great event that I felt very fulfilled with. But it
(21:01):
was hard to bring that outside of the scope of
the community. And I think right now, because things are
really versioning, is it is a time to to do that.
And so that's what I'm trying to do with Sharp
is basically bring social impact through commerce and expand a
little bit further so people are more aware of these
(21:22):
other identities. UM. And there's so many, as you can see,
with all the various queer fashion brands that are out there, UM,
I can probably count at least you know, thirty, probably
fifty of them out there in the US and Canada
and UM, all of these different brands in a sense
(21:46):
represent a different type of identity in in the queer
fashion space, and you know, uh, people are more interested there.
I think people are wanting to see more than the
standard UM offering that's currently in the fact fashion industry
and UM. You know, I'm just kind of writing this
wave and seeing where it goes and finally having a
(22:07):
chance to to fulfill my passion wi Lee on how
big is the queer fashion designing community and what is
funding like? I mean, is it the same for more
quote unquote mainstream fashion. Yeah. So I will start out
by saying that UM, finding capital UM for fashion brands
(22:28):
is particularly hard in general if you're just looking across
the various UH industries for startups. UM. That said, being
a queer fashion brand adds another layer of challenges to it.
I think that people are more technology focused, So the
fact that Sharp is moving more UM and opening up
(22:50):
our line of business to e commerce certainly helps. But
if you're just a brick and mortar fashion brand, it's
very very difficult. I mentioned before that we raised we
surpassed our goal for Kickstarter, and that's because we have
enormous support from the community, and that was really exciting
(23:10):
for me to see. Um, we had some support and
we raised over a hundred k from friends of family,
and now we're expanding to you know and in a
sense cold pitching to the average person. And that is
definitely experienced because, um, I have to sit there and
explain exactly how we were inspired and what the background
(23:31):
of our story is, and then I have to kind
of bridge the gap and say why are how are
we going to become successful as you know any x
y Z fashion brand out there? Um, So that's definitely
the challenges that I'm facing right now. But I think, um,
you know, with our expansion, which you're gonna see on
(23:52):
e commerce, uh, that I think we have a real
shot at it. So I'm excited to see where that goes.
(24:13):
Is the e commerce queer fashion industry and those sales?
Are they driven by social media? Do you think kids
who are I mean, I say kids, but it's really
multiple generations, um, is it? You know? Kids who are
finally maybe coming out and they are looking to blogs
and websites like yours and saying, oh my gosh, I
(24:35):
don't have it in my x y z small town,
but I can at least get it online. Are you
hearing from people like that? Yeah? So I think you
said keyword, which is kids. We definitely have a lot
of kids following all of us, UM, myself, Sonny and Asia.
And that's great because then we get to to let
them know as they're growing and maturing as adults that hey,
(24:56):
there's a space for you in the future. UM. Again
though their kids, so they can't really afford you know,
UM items that are several hundred dollars, which you know,
some of our suits do cost that much money. UM.
But the hope is to stick around until that group
can actually partake and and be purchasers of this these items. UM.
(25:20):
But a lot of uh I think more effective UM
marketing goes into digital advertising right now, UM, and you
will see the older crowds and Facebook. So we have
a campaign that's gonna be coming on Facebook soon. UM.
And just a lot of connections or word of mouth,
especially for somebody that's being referred to as Taylor so
(25:43):
to speak. They want to know that that somebody else
that they know, uh really well has a nice personal
connection with their tailor. And it's referral based that way. So,
Sonny and Asia, have you guys heard from members of
the younger generation about fashion and and sexual identity and
sexual orientation. Yes, Um, I hear from kids all the time. Um.
(26:08):
A lot of the stories are heartbreaking, but some are
more uplifting. Um. A lot of kids who are struggling
with their identity and feel like they need to fit
into a box. Um they say like, I think, I
think I'm attracted to girls, but I don't know, like
you know, they get all confused and it's really cute. Um. Um.
(26:30):
And lots of kids right in with issues with their
school or their parents in terms of like not letting
them dress the way they want to. So, um, I've
given a lot of I've tried to give a lot
of advice to those people and um. But yeah, just
a lot of a lot of kids are also able
(26:51):
to express themselves more now and they have all these
new terms for how they identify and that's really cool
to see. Yeah, it's it's a little bit bizarre. Are
to have started fit for a FIM when I was
in my twenties and not in my thirties, um and
seeing that shift because I don't know necessarily that my
audience's age has reflected my own over I mean, only
(27:11):
on the Internet can you be called like too traditional
and old school and high concept in the same sentence.
Um So, what I get mostly at Fit for a FM,
because it's um so specific, is women who come to
me and they say, when I came out, when I
realized I was when I realized that I was queer.
(27:33):
I thought that that automatically meant I had to cut
my hair, I had to put on men's clothes, I
had to be more androidness or butchet up. And it
never really felt like me. I just felt like this
was the only way to be seen um as as
gay or lesbian are queer, and ultimately they stumble upon
Fit for a FM and they think to themselves, whoa
(27:56):
like I can do this? This this person is clearly
doing this, and then you know, finding things that I
connect to or or other people. It's a thing. It's
totally a thing, and suddenly it becomes an option for
women who, do you know, want to reclaim their femininity
and be out there and the worlds of them Leon,
did you have anything else to add to that, um No,
(28:17):
non particular. I think that sums it up well. You guys, Asia,
you directly touched on this earlier, but you guys have
also touched on the idea of fashion as a part
of activism and of making your identity clearer to yourself
clear to other people. So do you feel that fashion
(28:41):
is a branch of activism and and how how is
it a branch of activism? Well, I mean, I think
we're seeing with North Carolina that the battle is not over. Um.
There are still really really hard times being fought across
this country for a lot of folks who just fighting
for the right to exist. And human beings are very visual,
(29:05):
and so when being who you are visually and and
being identified puts you at risk or means that your
rights can be trampled on or you can be discriminated against,
and there's no repercussion for that. That that's definitely activism
to be who you are and to be out and
sort of not compromise on that front. And that's really
(29:29):
powerful and scary for a lot of people, um. And
the more you can just support them and help give
them courage and help them to be authentic and true
to themselves, that's a really privileged place to be in.
For me personally, um. Just like Asia was saying, it's
really hard to just move about the world. UM. I
guess this is a podcast, so you can't see what
(29:50):
I look like. But I identify as non binary and trans,
and you know, sometimes I pass as mails sometimes I don't,
especially probably over the podcast, I sound more like I
have a high voice. But so I just have to
kind of every time I get dressed, deal with what
people's reactions are going to be, and still try to
(30:11):
be true to myself. Like right now, I have a
butt in my hair, which makes people read me as
more female, but sometimes if I put on a bow tie,
I can pass. So you never really know what's going
to happen, and it's always kind of an adventure going
into the bathroom. So yeah, I think for in terms
of just the community at large, even people who aren't
(30:31):
non binary, UM, I think it's really important to recognize
that we that the fashion industry puts UM standards on
all of us, and even if you identify UM along
the binary UM. Just like Asia was saying, if you
are dressing it like if you're a woman dressing in
(30:52):
a body positive way, like your plus size, and you're
showing off your Middrift Like that is activism in itself
because you're saying that you are proud of who you
are instead of trying to hide it. Yeah. I think
that visual activism is a big part of of what
Sharp does. And there's still a law of work to
be done. I mentioned during the South By Southwest panel
(31:16):
that we had suited on the red carpet Phyllis Naggi,
who was the screenwriter of Carol as she was up
for a nomination. She was very visible and you know, yeah,
she looked great on the red carpet. Uh. She took
a chance by doing that, and she was very brave.
She's definitely a pioneer in in queer fashion because of that. UM.
(31:38):
We also flew to Monroe, Louisiana to deliver a tuxedo
for a high school student who was initially banned from
UM uh her ability to wear a tuxedo to her
own prom. When that band was lifted, then we were
there to provide her a suit and she got to
wear to a prom and have fun with her friends.
(32:00):
We're still, you know, always looking to see, you know,
how we can provide back to the community and um,
you know, advance kind of uh this these new styles
and identities into the fashion world. Um so yeah, I
think there's still a lot of work to be done.
(32:21):
Even within the queer community, there's a bunch of sub labels. Um,
even being a transman or transgender individual, there's still sub
labels like transfeminine and trans masculine And people have asked me,
you know, like which one do you identify with? And
I'm like, isn't interesting How we're trying to get away
from labels, but we give up more and more labels.
(32:43):
And I think, you know, the consensus is once we
have so many labels that everyone has their own label,
then maybe we won't need them anymore and a person
will just be a person because you can, ideally, I mean,
you can essentially have um a different label to per
day to right you think about it, you know, I
think weren't for us to be able to label ourselves
(33:05):
or not label ourselves as we wish? Yeah, it's a choice. Yeah,
do you think how long do you think it's going
to take or do you think it's going to happen?
But how long do you think it's going to take
for more mainstream media outlets to catch up with that idea?
Of not everybody is on this binary guys. Not everybody
(33:26):
uses the same one or two labels. Do you see
that happening right now or do you ever see it
happening at all? I feel like it's starting to trickle
in a little bit. But and I think especially with
like younger characters in the media who are trying to
figure themselves out. And I definitely know with younger people
(33:49):
being the mom of a teenager, like, they just don't care.
That's that's my take. They just seriously don't care, and
they're not really interested in categorizing, which is fascinating because
I feel like human beings, like your brain, just before
you can even consciously think about it, wants to categorize.
It wants to organize things and to meet little boxes.
(34:11):
Um for whatever reason, I'm sure people who studied that
sort of thing of the name for it. But um, yeah,
it's really interesting to see how that is gonna kind
of become more and more prevalent in media representation. We're
already seeing some mainstream designers Alexander Wayne Gucci showing androgynous
designs on the runway. Um and um, you know, the
(34:36):
the kind of the slim fit style that we're seeing
a lot in the mainstream is is very androgynous. Um uh.
You know, it kind of takes on more of a
diamond shape, and that is especially for hiding curves or
or body parts that are more defining as masculine versus feminine. Um.
So we are seeing that, and it is, in my opinion,
(34:58):
different from from the nineties campaign that you saw a
lot with Calvin Klein and that sort of androgyny. This
is more of, uh, this is something that's rather than oh,
I'm going to pick that label because they're going through
an androgyny trend, this is more of a we're gonna
include this going forward kind of a fashion movement. So
(35:20):
I do feel that, you know, main street is catching
onto to quote fashion as well. What oh, Sonny, did
you have something ab oh sure? Um yeah. Well, as
I mentioned in the panel to um, I do, I
I appreciate that the industry is doing a lot of
(35:41):
unisex uh androgynous lines, but at the same time, it's
very limited to white, essentially female assigned birth skinny people.
So I'm really hoping that we can expand that to
show that an androgyny can be for anyone of all
body types and um, I'm just personally, I'm really hoping
(36:04):
someday that that stores won't feel such a need to
separate things into women's and men's sections because we're all
shaped so differently that it's really I mean, uh, like, yes,
men maybe taller in general or or wider, but it's
just there's so there's so much diversity in body type
(36:26):
among all of us that I really don't think we
need to separate it nearly as much as people think.
And I feel the most free if I can just
shop um when all the clothes are just together, because
then I'm like like those like those teenagers, I'm just
not caring about labels and I'm just having fun. Yeah,
(36:47):
it is interesting to watch. Kristen and I did an
episode on essentially feminism in fashion, but from the perspective
of feminism being used as a trend in the argument
of well, is this a negative because feminism is being
used or is it a positive because at least feminism
(37:08):
is getting a platform and it's part of a larger discussion.
Do you feel like something similar is happening with more
androgynous looks or with um fashion that's sort of for everyone.
Do you feel like androgyny is a trend or do
you feel like more mainstream fashion is really starting to
adopt more of a fashionist for everyone ethos And I
(37:30):
think people are taking these terms like androgynous, tomboy, um
a gender, and a lot of brands are just kind
of throwing it around and it's really just code for like,
here are some clothes that look really good on skinny
people and don't particularly you know, have a gender to them.
(37:50):
Often they're more masculine leaning actually, So yeah, I do
think it's it's a trend that people are kind of using,
and I wish people were a little more careful with
their words because, um, there are some people who really
do identify as a gender or androgynous um and these people,
(38:13):
most of them aren't represented by this group. Yeah. I
almost feel like if to be a little bit of
a music nerd, if you go back into like punk
and new wave and those times and like the late
sixties through the mid eighties, I mean you had I
feel like you had almost true like a gender stuff
(38:35):
where um like adam Ant would wear you know, roughly
shirts and kind of very tight, hip huggy sort of
pants and a lot of a lot of detail, UM,
and you then you had just sort of the straight
up and down and again this goes to what you're
talking about, sunny, look, that's just like a plain white
(38:55):
shirt and you kind of st Laurent has actually been
doing a lot of stuff that looks like that. UM.
But at least that gives more of a balance to
where you see masculine people wearing sort of more feminine
or fussy or frilly clothing rather than just everybody kind
of meeting in this this so called androgynous to find
(39:17):
middle middle of the road, which isn't really because it
doesn't incorporate anything on the feminine side of the spectrum, right.
You know, UM, A gender is not just about a
bunch of butches and suits. It's UM. It's playing with
different types of not just tailoring, but also draping UM
and really kind of not using gender basically as a
(39:42):
way of styling. It's UM using clothing in a way
that UM doesn't have anything to do with that. If
you look at the origins of tailoring, they did initially
start tailoring, uh for people who were male or or
for men, and this is UM back in the day
and during the Renaissance era, everyone was wearing kind of um,
(40:07):
draping kind of clothing and then Tayloring came into play.
This is around the rise of Christianity, and um, you know,
it was only for men at that point. I think
we're at a point in fashion where it doesn't really matter.
You can um play with different shapes and um uh
(40:27):
you know. That's another reason why I chose suits, is
because I'd like to play with suits that typically are
very masculine type of symbol and clothing and and just
be able to suit all types of people women, um uh,
those who are female identified, draping it off the shoulders,
(40:48):
wearing them with shorts, you know, I mean, just playing
around with it, and we're finding that a lot of
people are actually liking these styles. Um So yeah, sorry,
that wasn't in very a direct answer, but it's I
could talk about this and I didn't want to go
into like a ten minute feel you know, but hopefully
that gives kind of an idea of you know, uh
(41:13):
a gender and how that pertains to fashion. I feel
like it's not only gender in terms like androgeny to
(41:36):
get thrown around for and and feminism that get thrown
around for sort of trendy fashion reasons, but also issues
of race and ethnicity. I'm interested in your take on
where the place is for women of color in or
you know, feminine identifying people in this discussion about queer
(41:59):
fashion in because, like you were saying, Sonny for instance,
so much of that quote unquote androgyn his fashion does
tend to focus on skinny white people. So what's here?
What's your take on the space for feminine or female
identifying people of color. One thing that we talked about
and kept going back to you and ourselves by Southwest
panel was give people who aren't represented more seats at
(42:23):
the table. Everybody agreed on that. Everybody was on the
same page about if you want to if your mainstream
fashion brand and you want to have a play at androgyny,
or you want to incorporate more women of color on
your runways or just people of color on your runways,
even bring more of those people to the table. You can't,
(42:46):
you know, work on those concepts and have it to
be divorced from from those folks having representation and say
and what that should look like, what that should feel like,
how that should be marketed. Um. So I think that's
just one of the key pieces. UM. I just worked
on a story UM at Auto Straddle that featured Cora Harrington,
(43:07):
who runs the lingerie addict UM her addict rather and UM,
it's a it's a great her blog is amazing. It's
just all it's a it's a lingerie drain. Basically, just
look at this wonderful, beautiful, incredible lingerie. And so she
worked with some other people on this idea of like,
let's let's do our own photo shoot representing these spring
(43:30):
summer trends um and work with little indie brands um
to just sort of put out into the world like
what this should look like, what lingerie marketing campaigns should
look like if they wanted to be representative of a
diverse group of people, and they had an older woman,
they had Cora, who's a black woman, UM, and she's
(43:51):
queer and she's gorgeous, but and she also rock natural
hair um. And then there was a non binary queer
woman as well, UM. And there was one other one
other galic it's escaping me right now um. And so
they came together and they did this incredible, really beautiful
(44:11):
photo shoot. UM. But even then, because Cora is slender
and has insane bone structure. Um. You know, some people
are like, how, well, how is this different? How is
she different from the norm? And it's because she's a
queer woman, and she's a queer woman of color, and
she's darker than most black women that are featured in
(44:34):
lingerie campaigns, and she's a little bit more her physique
is a little bit more muscular than is usually considered
acceptable and lingerie campaigns. I mean, I could go on
and on and on about what makes her unique and special. Um.
But it's interesting to have that conversation, and it's wonderful
to see people sort of taking it into their own
(44:56):
hands and putting what they want to see out into
the world. Yeah. That's one of my goals with Quaire
is to just provide this platform for everyone to express themselves.
And I try to keep keep myself out of the
equation as much as possible. So if it's um, if
(45:16):
it's a column written by a queer woman of color, UM,
just making sure that it's really all hers and then
I'm just you know, pressing publish. UM. So that's that's
just really important to our values at Queer that we
give everyone a voice and that it's not dominated by
UM any one voice, you know, UM as sharp as
(45:41):
a business. UM, we do have to UM. It's it's
a very tricky balance, I think you know, UM, as
we've you know, bottom line is going to determine whether
we survive or whether I can continue to do this
or not. UM. So you know in our next campaign, UM,
you will see UM very slender cysts I guess, so
(46:05):
to speak, Caucasian guy wearing um our suits. And that
is because we are wanting to be all inclusive to
you know, the average guy who's sitting behind the computer,
who UM really wants to buy something that's more fashion
forward and UM also you know, maybe hipster and as
(46:25):
cool with you know that we're inspired by the l
g B, t Q UH community. UM So in the
product shots you will see that. But in all my
editorials on the runway, I'm always including all UM ethnicities,
all body types, all UH genders UH to you know,
as kind of an ode to who we are and
(46:46):
where we came from and who we're going to continue
to be. UM. But you know, again with marketing and
product marketing, we have to kind of take care of
our bottom line, so to speak. So it's gonna be
a tricky balance, but I hope I hope the community understands,
because um, it's it's better for a brand like Sharp
to be around someday then for us, you know, not
(47:07):
to exist at all, and then there's no work that
I can really do at that point. Yeah, in terms
of the community understanding, UM, I'm always I'm in a
unique position to get to talk to people like Yu
Leon who um are running your business and have all
these things you're dealing with, and then the community who's
having all of this feedback that's often negative, and I'm
(47:27):
trying to, like, you know, help balance um explaining to
the community like no, I'm serious that these people have
to charge this much like they worked all the numbers.
This is just what they have to charge. You know,
We're We're sorry it's too much for you, you know
that kind of thing. So um, So yeah, hopefully we
(47:48):
can bridge and understanding amongst each other. Yeah, it is
a delicate balance. UM. I know. I talked to Nick
Casey a lot about his business with his footwear she Wear.
It's like, um, well, if you want something that's made
uh with this sort of level of authenticity and quality,
(48:08):
then it's going to cost as much money. UM. Also,
just bear in mind that we are dealing with the
supply chain that is also very gendered and binary, and
so if we want to change things slightly, that costs
us money and so unfortunately that comes out in our
retail pricing. And you know, we've got to kind of
stick together to support each other. Um. You know, uh,
(48:31):
it's it's better, you know, to kind of pay a
little extra um for brands like this to be around,
and then when we get to a point where we've
changed things all the way vertically, then the prices can
come down right right. I feel like it's just something
that takes time, and a lot of folks who are
(48:51):
consumers simply don't understand because they're not they're not in
your physician, or they're not well verse, or they don't
know a super ton about the background of what it
takes to do that. You see that in like making
vegan clothing or vegan products or ethically sourced things. It
is expensive. There's a reason that fast fashion is fast fashion,
and it's so so so cheap, and it's very easy
(49:15):
to ignore the fact of why that is. Um. But
it's impossible to ignore as a as a business person
and as someone who is very intentional about buying ethically
sourced things or about supporting a queer business. Um, I mean,
I think those are excellent points in terms of balancing
the business against the constant sort of social outcry for no.
(49:39):
But I want, I want my fashion, and I want
it now. Um. I mean, I think it's an excellent point,
and I want to sort of start to wrap it up.
I've kept you good people too long, but I want
to get from each of you, uh, some advice if
you haven't. For young listeners out there, um, whether they're
(50:00):
queer or not, maybe just kids who feel like they're
different and outside of the mainstream, what is your advice
for them? As really fabulous fashion people, two kids who
maybe feel just a little different, Sunny, Let's start with you. Yeah,
just um it's cheesy, but just be yourself, I mean
(50:22):
you you really Everyone experiments to figure out what feels right.
So just try things on, you know. I I've had
a lot of embarrassing fashion moments in my day and
it was all part of the process of um, finding
my style, and I'm still discovering it. So just try
to be free, uh, and just surround yourself by friends
(50:43):
who support you in whatever stage you're in and who
don't make you feel like you have to conform to anything.
I agree. Uh, please don't go to some of my
older posts, but you could if you wanted to to
see how my style has evolved over the year. It's
just the nature of getting dressed as a human being.
(51:04):
Things cycle in and out and and it's exciting. It's
exciting to take part of those things. It's exciting to
go against the grain, and how you feel is more
important than anything else. UM. I would say one of
the more interesting things that I discovered moving from the
Bay Area to Boston four years ago was how reticent
(51:25):
people are to buy second hand or thrifted or clothing
that's that's not brand brand new. And I feel like
for a lot of young people who maybe don't have
access to a lot of money and can't spend what
they would ideally like to to achieve the style that
they want to represent or experiment or play with. UM,
(51:45):
don't be scared of that if there's nothing weird about it.
And I can't believe I had to say that to
so many clients as a personal stylist, but sometimes it's
one of the only ways to get the look that
you want from older clothing or are just there's no
way you can buy retail off the shelf, but you
can absolutely get that if you go and hunt for it,
um in the bins or at someplace like Buffalo Exchange
(52:05):
or crossroads where that stuff is a lot more accessible
than it is brand new. So just have fun and
don't be script out by any of that stuff. And yeah, nice,
thank you so much. UM. Could you go down the
line again and tell our listeners where they can find
you online and where they can find out more about
(52:26):
your work. Sonny, let's start with you. Yeah, so my
website is queer Fashion dot com. It's spelled q w
e a R fashion dot com and that's where you
can see everything we've done. You can find my style
blog Fit for a f M at Fit for a
FM dot com, um, just like it sounds, and auto
(52:46):
Straddle dot com is where you can find a lot
of my style and beauty coverage. Um, and that is
also just how it sounds. And if you want to
follow me on Instagram or Twitter, they're my heal is
dear jones e j O n E s E Y.
I know Instagram is super popular, so cool and uh
for sure We've got spring summer collection that's launching in
(53:08):
the next month or two and you can find that
at www Dot Sharp s h A r P E
Suiting s U I T I n g um dot
com or find us on Twitter, Instagram, uh, Facebook, and
the Twitter and Instagram is at Sharp Suiting. Great. Thank
you guys so much. It was such a pleasure talking
(53:30):
to you. I could honestly talk to you like for
three more hours. But thank you for having us. Yeah,
thank you so much for having us. And I just
want to thank Leon, Sunny and Asia so much for
(53:51):
joining us. I really think that our listeners will identify
with a lot of what they said, and I was
so pleased to be able to represent these fashion viewpoints
on our show. And I'm also looking forward to hearing
from listeners who are in the style and design fields,
M because I'm sure that you have even more insights
(54:13):
to talk about this, and also listeners within the l
g B t Q community. I mean, do these issues
resonate with you? Have there been challenges finding the fashion
that really fits who you are both inside and out? Um?
So mom stuff at how Stuff Works dot com is
(54:33):
where you can send all of your emails. Of course,
you can always tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or
message us on Facebook, and we've got a couple of
messages to share with you right now. Well, I have
a letter here from Olivia and Kristen. She has some
questions in here too for us to address. Okay, okay,
(54:56):
so Olivia says, first, I just want to say thank
you for doing what you do. I love listening to
your thoughtful conversations on the podcast while I'm doing everything
from working to cleaning, and it totally brightens my day.
I was listening to your most recent episode about the
lesbian wage bump, and the idea that many lesbians never
count on being attached to a male breadwinner really got
me thinking, I, a straight white CIS lady, have more
(55:19):
or less always counted on being in a partnership with
a male breadwinner. I knew from a very early age
that I wanted to get married someday, and I figured
my marriage would work the way my parents does. But
my mom lends a significant hand since she's back to
work after taking more time off when my sister and
I were little. I've never been encouraged to make being
a primary breadwinner a priority. This is presumably in part
(55:41):
because I'm female, but also because I come from a
family of creatives who always put following your passions before
making money. My decisions about my career have been made accordingly.
As a working artist, I'm much more concerned with the
career trajectory that will fuel my passions than with what
will be a stable source of income for a future family.
This feels like a betrayal of both feminism and my boyfriend.
(56:03):
I dislike the fact that I mentally bank on the
safety net when thinking about my future, and it feels
terribly unfair that I'm primarily concerned with chasing my passions
while my boyfriend has to balance that with having a
career stable enough to support any family we might eventually have,
though he assures me it's totally fine. All this to say,
I was wondering if you could do an episode on
(56:24):
reconciling one's radical feminism with being in typically quote unquote
female positions. Does this kind of thing grind other women's gears?
How many of us are in those positions by choice?
How do you navigate being a feminist while pursuing your dreams?
On another person's dime. I mean, I think that that
is all about partnership, gender aside, you know. I mean
(56:49):
there are times and long term relationships when one person
kind of has to carry more of the weight and
it evens out most likely it's point. And I don't
think that that it necessarily means that you're being a
bad feminist. Yeah, And and the same sentiment goes for
what job you choose. I mean, if you wanted to
(57:11):
be a prima ballerina, I'm thinking of like something super
you know, traditionally feminine. That doesn't matter if that is
your passion. And it would be one thing if you
were trying to take advantage and and get a leg
up over your partner. But it sounds like you guys
are in really open, clear honest communication with one another
(57:35):
that you really want to pursue your passion and your boyfriend,
who sounds like will become your husband one day or
you know, you guys are just in it for the
long haul. Um, it sounds like he's on board with
this too, And so no, like Christen said, I don't
think that makes you a bad feminist. And I don't
think that if you're in a traditionally uh female coded
(57:57):
or male coded line of work, or a female dominated,
male dominated line of work. I don't think either one
speaks to what kind of feminist you are. I don't
think that your passion or your skills speaks to feminism.
I think you can be a feminist and be in
a super traditional feminine role, female role, or you could
(58:18):
be a construction worker. You know what I mean, right?
I mean because I think we also conflate feminist and
feminine and consider that you know things that are feminine
or somehow the antithesis of feminism, and that's not the
point at all. So you know your own motivations and
it sounds like they're pure, and let your partner support you,
(58:41):
because that's what partnership is all about. So thanks for
your question. Um. I've got another letter here from Natasha
about our Lesbian wage Gap episode, and Natasha writes, I
listened to the Lesbian Wage Gap episode today while I
was out in the yard doing work, and I'm just
really glad you discussed it as a queer men who
grew up in a rural area and is continuing to
(59:02):
work at agriculture, and we'll live in a rural area
all my life. I really appreciated you talking about the
members of the queer community who live in rural areas
and the jobs we do. There's a big myth that
there's no queer people in rural areas and we all
want to flee to the cities. So even your discussion
of poverty and the difficulty living and working in rural
areas is super appreciated by me, because so often we
(59:24):
don't exist in anything. I've really been enjoying listening to
your podcasts as I'm walking fields all day. So thank
you and keep up the good work. Well. Thank you, Natasha,
and for all of our listeners. If you want to
send us and let our mom stuff at how stuff
works dot com is where you can do that, and
for let all of our social media as well as
(59:46):
all of our blogs, videos and podcasts with our sources
so you can learn more about queer fashion and our
fabulous panelists today. Head over to stuff Mom Never Told
You dot com For more on this and thousands of
other topics. Visit how stuff Works dot com.
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