SMNTY Classics: #MeToo 2: Louis CK Edition

Recently, Louis C.K. made a surprise appearance at the Comedy Cellar. A & B revisit his predatory behavior. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Bridget and this is Annie, and you're
listening to stuff Mom never told you. Um quick trigger warning,
we're talking about Louis c K. If that's a trigger
for you, I can imagine why it would be. Just

(00:27):
know that we're talking about today. So we wanted to
revisit this episode that we did about Louis c K
and his apology and me too, because Louis c K
has decided it is a good time to be back
in the spotlight. In late August, Louis c K made
his first comedy appearance since admitting to exposing himselves and
masturbating at a handful of women over his career. He

(00:49):
did a surprise set at the Comedy Seller in New York. Yeah,
and as you can imagine, this was an uncomfortable experience
for some audience members. Two women who sat through cks
set told Vulture that though the small venues audience was
overwhelmingly supportive of the comedian, one joke about rape whistles

(01:09):
was uncomfortable, and that there seemed to be a divide
between how men and women reacted to c k's presence.
One woman said it felt like he was being thrust
upon the audience without telling them. The audience was very
loud and c K walked in. They were clearly supportive
and surprised, and he showed up. But there were a
number of women sitting in the front row. According to Vulture,

(01:30):
from her seat to the left of the stage, she
could see a pair of women sitting stone faced. Her friend,
who asked not to be identified, noticed the same reaction.
She said, there at least four or five females that
I could see, and three or four of them were
not having it. They were just looking at him, deadpan, straight,
not having it. She went on and said that the
audience was mostly white, with lots of couples. Both women

(01:52):
say the set was awkward, but the first woman was
particularly upset by it. Quote it was an all male
set to begin with, then sort of exacerbated by c
ks presents. If someone had heckled him, I think they
would have been heckled out. It felt like there were
a lot of aggressive men in the audience and very
quiet women. Is the kind of vibe that doesn't allow
for dissenting voice. You're just expected to be a good

(02:14):
audience member. You're considered a bad sport if you speak out.
Here's my thing. If I hire a baby center, spend
money for a ticket, take the train all the way
into the comedy seller, you know, buy a drink, all
of that. If I go through all of those steps
and Luis c K makes a surprise appearance, my night
is ruined. My night is ruined. And so I just

(02:37):
think it's so telling the kind of person Lubis c
K is that he felt it was appropriate to spring
a surprise comedy set on people who didn't know he
was going to be there. I think I think that really,
for me, tells you all you need to know. Like
if he really was about, you know, making a comeback,

(02:59):
then put your name on a god marquee and sell
tickets at say Louis c K, and people can decide
whether they're going to go or not. But to have
it be a surprise set at a place where he knows,
like he he kind of got his start and was
a big part of his career, where no one is
going to boo him, or if you get up and
make a scene, people are going to, you know, scream
at you. I think putting that on unsuspecting people who

(03:20):
are just like trying to have a nice night is
so awful. And so I think it's so telling the
kind of person he is. By the way, on Twitter,
I saw a lot of people being like, oh, well
he's you know, he served his time, blah blah blah.
Excuse me. I mean, he basically went away for a
couple of months, and as far as I know, what

(03:44):
did he do to sort of make amends? And he
donate lots of money? Like what like, what did he
what did he do? Like? What actionable steps did he
take other than just be a rich guy who was
not on Twitter for a few months. Yeah. I can
only just thinking about how you you go in to

(04:05):
an experience like this and you think, oh, we're gonna
have a good time to night, we're gonna laugh and
maybe get some relief from like me too, or from
the constant deluge of news, and then to be confronted
unsuspecting with that is awful, just an awful thing. And again,

(04:28):
maybe you don't want to think about your sexual assault
when you're trying to watch comedy, So maybe not. Maybe
you don't want to. Maybe you don't want to be
in the in the room with an admitted sex criminal.
Maybe maybe that doesn't in like a safe situation. Maybe
you don't want to pay money to be in the
room with us admitted sex criminal. That's that's a reasonable
a reasonable position. Oh and by the way, in case
you're thinking, oh, like, maybe he's just testing the waters,

(04:52):
His stand up material included a joke about rape whistles.
According to the two women that Vulture spoke to, his
set included a joke about the phrase clean as a whistle,
which built up to a joke about how rape whistles
are not clean. One of the women said, when he
said rape whistle, people were laughing, and I was just
sitting there like, oh my, this is so uncomfortable and
so disgusting. Everybody around me was laughing. That was depressing.

(05:15):
Let me tell you something. If I go to a
comedy a comedy act and Louisy, I don't know what
thee'll do, but it will not be pretty like it
will be bridget Todd come up podcaster removed from Louis
from said, because I will make the biggest scene in
the If you think you've seen a scene, I would
make the biggest scene. And I don't blame these women

(05:37):
for not wanting to make a scene because you weren't
suspecting you weren't expecting to have to deal with this
kind of thing going to a comedy show, So you're thinking,
you know, do I get up and leave? Like I
could not in good faith sit and watch a Louisy
Caset without getting up, or I would have been It
would have been an uncomfortable situation. So I don't blame
these ladies for not, you know, throwing tomatoes at him
or whatever. But I guess what I'm saying is that

(06:00):
nobody should be putting that situation without prior warning, and
I think it's shitty that that's how he chose to
stage his comeback. Agreed, So we hope that you find
this episode, I guess, not enjoyable, but informative and it

(06:23):
maybe gives some more some more context to this whole situation. Hey,
this is Bridget and this is Emily, and you're listening
to stuff mom never told you, and today I have

(06:48):
to give a trigger warning. Not super thrilled to be
coming back to this topic again so soon, but here
we are. Men continue to be terrible in the Hollywood
media landscape. So we're back at it again. And me
to part two, the louise E k Edition. Now several
of y'all tweeted at us after Louise K released his
apology for apology in air quotes, I'm actually gonna just

(07:11):
call it a statement because he makes more sense. There
was no apology his statement regarding allegations that he had
been non consensually masturbating in uput of women in writer's
rooms and in the comedy world for a very long time.
Those allegations, as we all now know, turned out to
be very true. Several of you wrote in asking what
we thought about this situation, his statement and whether or

(07:33):
not it was authentic and genuine. So today we're really
going to unpack what led up to this moment, how
rumors in the comedy and Hollywood and media landscape really
kind of we're all accurate in this case, and what
it means for Hollywood and women going forward. Now. The
last time, at the end of our me Too episode,
which we by the way, we're not intending to make

(07:54):
a series, but it's starting to feel like it might
become one, we had wrapped that conversation up by talking
about this so called witch hunt. First of all, I'm
still excited and motivated by this so called witch hunt.
I think this is like the witch hunt rolling out. However,
there was some concern around due process and like, is

(08:17):
this going to become, uh, you know, the rumor mill
run amuck. And I think we are starting to see
real accusations being put forth and actually resulting in serious
ramifications for every sexual predator, accept our president apparently Trump alert.
But one of you brilliant listeners actually tweeted at us
this really interesting component of the witch hunt which is

(08:40):
now gleefully underway, that I thought was so on point.
So thanks to Coyote Meal who tweeted at us, women
call men out on their bad behavior. Men wine and
cry quote, it's a witch hunt, no, boys. Witch Hunts
were when powerful men imprisoned and killed independent women. And
that's not your term to borrow hashtag take back, witch hunt,

(09:04):
hashtag history. And then she treated at mom Stone podcast
and full frontal sam b and I just thought that
is such a good point. This idea that this is
a witch hunt that they can wine and freak out
and complain about is ironic considering women were persecuted for
nothing other than I don't know, intelligence or independence, independence,

(09:25):
maybe having pockets when that wasn't when that was caused
for suspicion and this is the witch hunt edition, like
this is actually holding people accountable. Unfortunately, this is leading
to serious ramifications for folks like Louis Ka. It really is.
And even when we first recorded our last episode on

(09:46):
Me Too, which wasn't even that long, agough, a handful more,
you know, powerful people in Hollywood have gone down because
of allegations similar to those that Louis k found himself with.
In no way is this a complete list. There are
so many more. If we were to list them all,
we'd beat her all day because that's how gross this is. Uh.
So far, we have Bret Radner, very powerful Hollywood director,

(10:07):
who was accused by a handful of actresses for sexual
misconduct and allegations. We mentioned Kevin Spacey's allegations in an
earlier version of our Me Too podcast. Well, now Netflix
has canceled House of Cards, and really we've seen a
lot of swift movement for getting justice for his victims,
which is interesting to me because part of me wonders
if it's because he's a man and his victims were

(10:29):
male that it was so swift. Even with Harvey Weinstein,
it seemed like there was a couple of days where
it was like, Oh, what's gonna happen? Is he going
to get the boot? Blah blah blah. Would we believe
women exactly? Kevin Spacey, It seems very very quick. Another
instance that I found really telling and kind of fascinating
is this case with Biju Phillips. Basically, when Biju Phillips

(10:50):
is in this movie Bully back in the early two thousand's,
one of her co stars, Daniel Frenzies, you might know
as Damien from the movie Mean Girls, which of course
is a classic, He came out with allegations that when
they were filming the movie Bully way back when b
Phillips is pretty terrible to him. Now he's a gay man,
she's a woman. But that just goes to show you
that sexual harassment in the workplace isn't just man to woman.

(11:13):
It can be anyone to anyone, because it's really about power.
So he alleges that she made fun of his body
when he had to take his clothes off for different scenes,
that she would often make fun of him for being
gay in front of the other co stars. I mean,
she was harassing. That's harassing to harass, and it really
goes to show that these cases can often be about
power and making the other person feel powerless and exploiting

(11:33):
these power dynamics. And so again, this isn't something that
just happens men to women, although that tends to be
the conversation that we're having in Hollywood. It can happen
or men to men, It can happen to anyone, right.
Michael Risky's from NPR is the latest whose name is
in the headlines. NPR has been doing its own reporting
on it and an investigation into the allegations coming from

(11:55):
a lot of female producers at NPR. Matthew Weener, the
creator of Admin, is making headlines for allegations of sexual assaults. Yeah.
What I found so heartbreaking about the allegations of surrounding
Matthew Leaner is that this happened to a writer on
the show, Cater Gordon, and basically she her career was
on an upswing, right. She won an Emmy for her

(12:16):
work on Mad Men. She went from being an assistant
to a writer, and these allegations really had a big
impact on her career. She says, I had the Emmy,
but instead of being able to use that as a launchpad,
for the rest of my career. It became an anchor
because I felt I had to answer to the speculative
stories in the press. I eventually walked away instead of
fighting back. So she's someone whose career really never bounced back,

(12:38):
and that her career success actually became a burden because
of her association with this guy who she rasped her God.
And then we would be remiss to not mentioned Roy Moore,
the Alabama Senate nominee who is being asked now to
step aside by an unusual suspect, Mitch McConnell, who says,

(12:59):
by the way, I believe the women. I thought that
was an interesting Mitch McConnell quote after allegations of child
molestation in response to allegations that he was basically hitting
on and assaulting fourteen year old girl. Yeah, watching our
elected leaders and lawmakers say things like, well, it wasn't
non consensual because she was into it, or it was

(13:22):
actually romantic. He didn't have sex with her, it was
very romantic. He would play guitar and be really sweet
to her, as if that's not disgusting. And also, yeah,
and he was victim blaming in his statements about it. Saying,
you think it's a coincidence she waited all this time
to make these allegations right before my election, right before

(13:43):
this critical point in my career, and I'm thinking, dude,
this is the time, this is the time to take
people down. Like she's got the whole zeitgeist behind her.
Of course she's going to do this right now. I
don't blame her for exactly staying silent or not publicly
getting attention that she deserves to call you out on
this BS exact place. So it definitely seems like we're
in a cultural moment where people who have been silent

(14:03):
for a long time feel like they are empowered to
be silent no more. And that's something I'm really happy
to see. I'm happy that people all along the spectrum
are calling out inappropriate workplace and sexual harassment because it's
you know, it's high time, and it's it seems like
do process is still do process, but now people are
maybe more likely to believe victims for the first time ever.

(14:26):
You know, maybe this is a great time to make
your voice heard if you are a victim, because the
likelihood of being believed, I don't think it's ever been higher,
totally so taking it back to Louis c K for
a minute, if you listen to our earlier episode about
the me to campaign, one of the things that came
up a lot is this idea of gossip and rumors
and how even though I think that we're conditioned to
just dismiss gossip and dismiss rumors and say, oh, do

(14:49):
you have any proof? Oh, you know, is there any
hard evidence, a lot of times when it comes to
things like harassment and sexual assault, gossip and rumors can
kind of function as a way to warn other and
to spread the truth about what's actually happening. And so
these Louis k rumors have been around on the Internet
and in comedy scenes for a very long time. Right,
if you're all read into the comments section of certain

(15:11):
feminist blogs or what's going on in comedy scenes, you've
no doubt heard these rumors. And the longest time, people
would often say, this is just rumors, this is just
one person, this is just one story, you know, dismissing them,
and actually it turned out to be very true. Yeah,
I mean, I think it's interesting if you look all
the way back to twelve, Gawker made this really interesting

(15:32):
editorial choice to run a piece titled which beloved comedian
likes to force female comics to watch him jerk off,
which was positive as a question and really describe what
was happening with Louis c K. But they made the
choice to not name the suspect. I remember reading that
article when it was published back in twelve and as

(15:54):
soon as I read it, I was like, I think
it's Louis King because he talks about masturbation, he does
a lot, and he just seemed I don't know. I
didn't have any proof. I didn't have any evidence. I
just had a feeling. I just had a feeling it
was him. It's like the rumor mill was fully functional.
And later in April, comedian Jen Kirkman talks about a

(16:15):
quote known PERV on her podcast without naming any names.
Once again, she said, and I quote, I had another
guy who's a very famous comic. He's probably at Cosby
level at this point. He is lauded as a genius.
He's basically a French filmmaker. At this point, you know,
new material every year. He's a known PERV, and there's
a lockdown on talking about him. His guy friends are

(16:38):
standing by him and you can't say a bad thing
about him. And I've been told by people, well say it,
then say it if it's true. If I say it,
my career is over. My manager and my agent have
told me that they didn't threaten it. They just said
it to me. They just said to me, you know what, Jen,
it's not worth it because then you'll be torn apart.
Look at the Cosby women. Something I find so telling

(17:02):
about her statement is that she doesn't think it was
a threat. It was just a fact. If you talk
about this, if you're done, yeah, it's I mean, that's
what's so scary about people at the peak of their
career success like Louis Kay. I mean, he was kicking it,
and so to be the wet blanket right to be

(17:22):
the the naysayer about the beloved comedian. It just comes
with so much personal risk. No one wanted to do
it alone. And furthermore, his manager, Dave Becky, was arguably
even more powerful than Louis himself was He managed some
of the biggest names in comedy. We're talking Amy Poehler
as Ziza Snari, people that you think of as you know, progressive,

(17:44):
funny people. And if you're a comedian who's up and coming.
You might really be afraid to cross someone that powerful,
who has a direct line with so many powerful comedians.
And once again, the entertainment industry is such a how
usual relationship driven industry, you know, Like I'd say, all

(18:05):
industries are pretty relationship driven. But there's no HR department
in the comedian stand up circuit, you know what I mean.
There's no hierarchy, there's no real authority. There's just power
as derived from popularity and influence, and so there's no
it's like such a wild wild West. Yeah. In our

(18:25):
last ME two episode, we talked about how because Hollywood
really functions on you know, sexual desire and looks as
a currency, and how it really allows abusers to fester.
I think comedy kind of presents another interesting way of
framing that, where it is relationships, it is personal connection,
It is having fond feelings about someone or thinking, oh

(18:47):
this guy is really funny. This guy's a truth teller
that I think allows people who are doing bad things
to really get away with it unchecked. Yeah, exactly, So
what was he getting away with? So? Basically, he admitted
to asturbating in front of at least five women, who
were also either writers or comedians are involved in the
comedy scene. Um. Sometimes he would barricade them and kind

(19:09):
of not let them, not let them leave a room
until he was finished. Um. One woman says that they
talked on the phone and then she realized through what
he was saying and how he was breathing, that he
was masturbating. Um. Yeah, it just really sounds. I don't
even have the words for it. It's just such a
I would be so shocked. And in one of the anecdotes,
the two women that he masturbates in front of, they

(19:30):
described not even having the time to take off their
winter coats, right exactly. This is the part of the
story I found so interesting and I'm glad the New
York Times decided to lead the story with this. Basically,
these two comedians, Daneman Goodman and Julia Woloff had landed
their big break, a chance to open the Comedy Arts
Festival in Aspen, Colorado, where Louis c k was also performing. So,

(19:54):
of course, when he invited them to hang out in
his hotel room for a nightcap afterwards, they took him
up on the offer, thinking like, of course, this is
a good opportunity to network, which is true and should
be a thing that women can do. And they said,
as soon as they sat down in his room, still
wrapped in their winter jackets and hats, Louis c K
asked if he could take out his penis. I'm sure

(20:16):
he didn't say it like that, though, like do you
mind if I whip out my Like that's the kind
of opening line that Louis went with. And they said,
I thought it was a joke and laughed it off,
which is a normal reaction to something like that, that
Louis c. K is a dirty comedian, like he would
joke about something like that. He jokes about masturbation on
the show frequently. So then he did it and they

(20:38):
were like, he proceeded to take all of his clothes off,
get completely naked, and start masturbating and they're like, still
wrapped up in their jackets, paralyzed. They were like, I
didn't know what to do, and I don't blame them,
because what the hell kind of a move was that?
I mean, I can't even fathom a grown man think

(21:00):
you that that isn't all a consensual encounter when the
people that you're doing that. In fin they just got
there I mean, what is that. Well, it's it's so
clearly not a sexual it's not sexually initiating something. It's
clearly an assault, you know what I mean. It's like
a power move your I don't know. It's so disrespectful

(21:21):
at its core, it's not about a sexually mutual exchange
of anything. It's like, this is what I'm gonna do
over you, Like, I don't really care about your thoughts
or feelings about it. This is what I'm gonna do. Honestly,
I would love for the like sex therapists out there
to weigh in on the psychology of why men would,

(21:42):
why men do that? And men do men do? And
Laura knows, I don't understand men. If you if you
know anything about my romantic life, Laura knows, I don't
know crap about men. But this is something that I
just can't wrap my head around. But there's also this
narrative I've heard that's like, oh, he's sexually damaged, like
he's got problems. That's the thing that jumped out at

(22:03):
me in a lot of the encounters, and described that
in The New York Times when the women said, after
he asked, can I take out my penis and started
masturbating that she said no, and that his response was, oh,
I have problems, And so it does seem like whether
or not that's an actual thing, it does seem like
c K fell back on this idea of like, oh,

(22:24):
I have problems, I have sexual hangups whatever, as an
explanation for behavior that really just can't be excused. I
imagine if you walked into your boss's room or your
colleague's office and that happened. See I think because it's
the entertainment industry, because it was a late night in
a hotel room, the barriers seem a little wishier and washier,
a little more fluid. But compare this to your office, like,

(22:45):
compare this to your professional domain. The women who were
in that hotel room had just finished working with a
professional colleague. Just because it was in a hotel room
does not lower the bar of like decency. And a
lot of people on Twitter started saying, like, Wow, that's
weird and messed up and gross. But is it assault?
Is this against the law? You can't whip out? I mean,

(23:06):
there was real tension around people getting on board immediately
with that being an assault. Definitely, I definitely saw that,
and I thought to myself, the only spectrum we have
these days to talk about sexual misconduct is is it
a legal sexual assault or no? Then our whole conversation

(23:27):
is kind of well, it's it just goes back to consent.
We've got to train all people of all genders what
it looks like to have consensual sex, because that is
not a consensual exchange, and that is at its core
and aggressive one way move. It's like, I really don't
care if you say yes or no, this is going

(23:47):
to happen. I'm going to do this. This is me
wielding power over you and fundamentally disrespecting you. Absolutely, and
I think you really saw that in c k statement
about what happened. So one thing I will say about
this statement is that he did flat out say these
allegations are true. I did these things. And so having
that for me, having that be sort of the opening line,

(24:09):
I thought, well, at least he's not going through this
whole rigamarole of their lying. At least he's saying this happened,
which is commendable. We can we can say this is
disgusting and terrible. And also he owned up to it,
and that's commendable because I think in this date and age,
the what we expect from powerful men who are accused
of sexual assault or sexual harassment or sexual misconduct is right.

(24:31):
It's like a script right away. These allegations are false.
I have a daughter, I have a wife, Like there's
a playbook that usually happens. Women are there so low though,
That's what I realized. We were chatting a lot when
this stuff was breaking, and I was talking with a
lot of people in my life about it, and I
frankly realized that I was too easily impressed. Is the

(24:54):
bar so low for me? That just owning up to it,
even though he does not apologize and says something being pathetic,
like I never showed a woman my without asking first,
And I thought that's why it was okay, Like I
was playcated for all of five seconds before I started
talking about it with everyone around me, and I read
the New York Times piece out loud when I was

(25:15):
reading it and Brad was around, and I read the
statement and he just said, I'm not impressed. And I realized, like, damn,
I've been coming up in a world where this kind
of a statement was like playcated me, and I felt
sort of horrified by myself in that moment. Well, if
you checked out social media, you're far from alone. I
saw many people on Twitter applauding his statement, saying this

(25:38):
is a good model for how men can own when
they do something wrong and how they can publicly own it.
But here's and and here's the thing. Lubis c K's
whole stick is sort of calculated vulnerability and sort of
making you feel like he's being honest and authentic. That's
why his show was so good. That's what resonates with
his stand up. And so he is shameful. He's Saul

(25:59):
ashamed of himself correct, which reminded me of all the
people I've ever dated in my life except for Brad
the Boo. So I think I was like, I got
the psychological victimhood that he was playing. But do you
think it was authentic? I even think he was authentically ashamed? Yeah?
I do. So here's why I disagree. I definitely think

(26:19):
this is like your mileage made very thing. And I
saw people that I immensely respect saying this is like,
he does seem like he's owning this and that he understands.
But just two months ago he was on TV promoting
his gross movie, which We're gonna get you in a second,
saying these are rumors. I've done nothing wrong. I'm not
answer for this. And so even while that statement reads

(26:40):
to me as someone who is ashamed and feels bad
and gets it, gets why they've done something wrong, I
don't feel like you can go from I don't I
don't have to apologize for anything. I don't do anything wrong.
In fact, you're the one who's wrong for spreading rumors
that made me. I don't think he could go from
there too, genuinely apologetic and getting it in a series
of months. And I guess that's actually what Brad pointed

(27:02):
out to me, which was I bet so many men
out there have these statements ready to go, but they're
not going to own it until they absolutely have to.
That's the thing. And so I want to see the
guy who says, you know what, I'm volunteering, I did
something wrong, and they're probably all coming for me anyway,
So let's just get this out of the way now. Yeah,
I want to see that guy. Yeah. I don't feel
like Luis c k can. He has made a big show.

(27:26):
He went on Mark Marin's podcast and essentially lied. He
lied and said this never happened. It's a rumor. It
was a rumor about one night, and Mark Marin was like, yeah,
he lied to me on my own show. He came
into my garage but on my headphones, talked into my
microphone and lied. And so I just feel like, you know,
it's a note from me. It's a note from me. Yeah. Yeah,

(27:46):
that's very compelling. I'm convinced. And it actually really jarred
me in the same way that problematic fave Taylor Swift addition,
jarred me into realizing, Oh, I forgive a lot of
racism for people that I adore, and that's pretty messed
up when it comes to Taylor Swift, and when it
comes to Louis c K. Because I loved his comedy.

(28:07):
I was so easily placated by his book. But that's
the thing, that's how he gets you, like, his comedy
sucks you in that way, and I think it's a
it's a nature of comedy. The stand up comedy is
about making people feel like you're telling the truth that
you're that you're winning them over to how you see
the world, and Louis is great at that. That's why
his comedy is so good. And so when I saw

(28:29):
that statement, initially I was like, that was a good statement.
I had to take a step back and say, wait
a minute. He doesn't even say he's sorry, And as
Christina Cattarucci points out over at Slate in his own
statement about his misconduct, he really messes up the concept
of consent in a way that I think folks aren't
really talking about enough. She says. Even so, nestled in
a CK's admission effect quote these stories are true, are

(28:51):
several deliberate lies. C K's phrasing is cunning and specific.
Perhaps he did ask each women if he could take
out his penis before he showed it to them, but
he doesn't say if they said yes, because many didn't. Here,
c K is squeezing his history of harassment into the
narrative of misunderstood consent. He's claiming that, as an adult man,
he believed that repeatedly asking a woman in his workplace

(29:12):
to watch him masterm it in his office was appropriate.
The Times article says he proposed his favorite sex act
to the pair of women he didn't know but who
admired him. As soon as they sat down in a
room wrapped in their winter jackets and hats. When they
quote lacked it off, he did it anyway. C K
would have his fans believe that he honestly thought this
would be erotically pleasing for the two bundled up women,

(29:33):
that he truly believed that he had their consers exactly
because it has nothing to do with their interests or desires.
He's totally disrespectful and ignorant of and not interested in
understanding what they want and desire in that moment, because
it's sure as hell wasn't going to be to watch
him masturbate. Yes, duh, absolutely accurate. We're gonna get into
a little bit more about why c k's allegations seemed

(29:53):
a little bit different from the others after this quick
break and we're back and we were just talking about
Luis Ka and really why it was so tempting to
maybe give him a pass to say, oh this his
statement was good. And I really do think it's because

(30:15):
of how he functions in the comedy world. First of all,
as The New York Times points out, the man is
a comedy legend. He's so successful he sold out Medisine
Square Garden his show is huge. He's really sort of
known as kind of a tastemaker and the comedy in Hollywood.
So I wonder if that played into why these allegations
went unaddressed for so long. Yeah, you know, it's ironic

(30:36):
and now very horrifying. Is that Louis K built a
reputation as the unlikely conscience of a comedy scene. As
written in The New York Times, they go on to say,
he made audiences laugh about hypocrisy, especially male hypocrisy. And
I think that's exactly why men like c K can
be so insidious, because they make you believe that they're

(30:59):
these woke programs. A feminist. They get it, they get
what the women are going through, they get their own
role in it. But just saying the right stuff about
gender doesn't actually make you a feminist exactly. His work
really underscored and played up the grossness of men, which
made him kind of endearing. For instance, take his classic

(31:19):
joke about how dating men is dangerous. He says, how
do women still go out with guys? When you consider
that there is no greater threat to women than men?
Were the number one threat to women globally and historically
we are the number one cause of injury and mayhem
to women, which, by the way, I never thought was
that funny because it's so freaking true, you know what
I mean. That was like a scary, real joke. But

(31:41):
he got people laughing because he's the oh, like, we're
so bad, like terrible men like oh self deprecation on
steroids totally. And I have such a hard time seeing
through this when it's happening and like the guy is
in my good graces. But after that that, it's so
easy to call this out for what it is exactly.

(32:02):
And you know who did that beautifully is Francesca Ramsey,
who really articulated this in the perfect way on stage
just earlier this week. I think what really is the
worst is like looking back on his material and realizing
that he was doing all of this stuff to get
like head pats for being like a woke white guy

(32:23):
who like understands that's hard to be a woman, like you, dude.
He was telling jokes about himself. He was going up
and telling jokes about how hard it was to be
a woman because guys are coles, and he was talking
about himself, and he was getting millions of dollars for it,
and it's just honestly, I could out of put it
better myself. Um, I think it's I think she's absolutely

(32:44):
spot on right. We all kind of bought into this
idea of Luis c K as this feminist truth teller.
There's actually a Salon article about all about how he's
a male feminist comedian and it's this new thing, and
I just think we bought it, and he was making
millions doing it. Underscores to me just how enraged we
all should be about it. Absolutely, And I think the

(33:05):
fact that we gave him money for telling jokes about
his own gross disturbing behavior really say something about us.
Over at g Q, they write c K two had
a rep for being painfully honest, particularly in regard to
his own shortcomings as a husband, father, and man in general.
Looking back, it feels like c K's entire uvra was
less a deployment of harsh truths than a deft way

(33:26):
of laundering them, masking his truly unforgivable behavior. He was
strategically vulnerable, always in control of his own narrative. He
almost certainly got more cadarsis out of his act than
his audience did. C K also had a habit of
presuming his own personal flaws, his inner racism, his sexual hangouts, etcetera,
were universal aspects of the human condition. I know that
playbook well, and it's often used by a white dude

(33:48):
who thinks everyone else also thinks like a white dude,
which I'm sure many white dudes do, but like it doesn't.
It's not exactly inclusive comedy like that. That's why that
joke about men being the number one deadliest threat to
women was not funny to me. Right, But again, I
think a certain kind of man see C. K And says,

(34:09):
if I think like him, I'm a good guy. I'm
a progressive. I can be gross, I can do all
these gross things. I mean. He had an episode of
his show Louie where he basically tries to rape Pamula
Alden's character, and it's sort of framed as, Oh, he's
just this bumbling guy who doesn't know how to how
to be with women, and looking back, it's like, why
did we entertain that? Why did we allow that to

(34:32):
be wrapped up and kind of a you know, a
fluffy bow. Another episode that I actually had forgotten about
until just now is Louis. You know, he's this sort
of chronically single, can't get a date, hapless guy who
doesn't understand women, and it's supposed to be lovable on
the show. He goes to a supermarket and there's a
black woman behind the checkout counter and he buys like

(34:52):
a dozen roses and he says, these are for you,
and she's like, I can't accept these roses. I don't
want them. And he's like, no, I'm I bought them
for you. I bought them for you. She's like, no,
I'm not interested. He then waits until she gets off
of her job. He follows her back to her apartment
and this is New York, so she lives in like
Harlem its and it's involves, you know. He gets on
the subway with her and he goes back to her

(35:14):
apartment and it's like trying to woo her after she's
made it very very clear that she's not interested, and
the episode is played for sort of. He's this romantic
guy who's trying his best to woo this girl who
could not have made it any more clear that she's
not into it. And what's worse is that the girl
actually gives this very pointed kind of monologue about what's

(35:36):
happening and why it's messed up? She says, you think
this is going to be something where you come to
the hood and like come to Harlem and like make
my day and like buy me flowers, and it's supposed
to be so nice. I'm not into it. It's not romantic,
it's not cool, and you're thinking, oh, maybe he gets it.
But then here's the kicker. It's played for laughs because
as he's leaving her apartment, he sees another black woman

(35:58):
and they have like what is supposed to be humorous sex.
So basically essentially stalks a woman all the way through
her work day on the subway back to her home.
After she's like you need to leave her. I'm basically
called him the cops. He sleeps with another woman and
it's supposed to be funny and charming. And I wonder
where we all just caught up in that and exactly

(36:21):
what Fancesca was saying, this sort of bumbling white guy
progressivism that we kind of got dupe into thinking that
was cool. I think he is playing up the very
real problem that our society has on understanding consent. I
think the confusion around consent is honest clearly he doesn't
understand that whipping your get out in the workplace, even

(36:43):
if it is a hotel room after a comedy show
in front of two women who could not have looked
or seemed less interested, is not okay. So I think
this like hapless learning what consent means, Like clearly he
needs to understand what eighteen year olds are hopefully getting

(37:03):
through their heads a little more. Then it's like a
generational thing. Not that that's a pass, but I think
his comedy resonated because there is real confusion in this
country about what consent actually means. And once you add
power in a sense of entitlement to it, which white
men in our country seem to have an oversized amount
of right now and historically, then that's a that's a

(37:26):
pretty dangerous combination. A lack of respect around consent, an
outsized estimation of your own awesomeness right about your own
sex appeal perhaps or your entitlement and your power, and
an actual outsized amount of power in this country. I
would also go further and say an outsized estimation of
your own feminism, right, because I do think him being

(37:48):
sort of appointed as quote feminist dude perhaps did give
him a lot of leeway to make art that we
weren't super critical about in addition to getting away with
things that were really in apropriate. That's why I love
this piece that Sarah Ditman put out at the New Statement.
She says, it's typical of the low standards men benefit
from that Simply describing how men are bad for women

(38:09):
could be enough to get c K lauded as a
hero of the women's movement, in the same way that
a male primary school teacher who simply shows up for
work long enough can find himself glass elevator to the
head of leadership. Just dropping some about sex and power
can be enough to have a man seen appointed to
top feminist. And if, like c K, he seems to
be admitting to personal foibles as he goes, then he

(38:31):
can be praised all the more for his honesty. Yeah,
the bar is so low. The bar is so low
for male feminists is in the public eye and the
entertainment industry, And isn't interesting how a lot of times
these notable male feminists find themselves kind of dealing with
this kind of thing. I'm thinking of folks like Jamie Kilsten,
Josh Sweden, all of these men that sort of appoint

(38:52):
themselves as these feminist heroes, sometimes they end up being
kind of gross and kind of sleazy and using their
feminist street cred to prey on women. Yeah. I can
almost hear the guy listening though, saying, like, what am
I too much of a feminist now? It's like kind
of how Matt McGorry got a lot of shade after
he was like a little too front and center. I

(39:14):
almost wonder if it's one of those Malcolm Gladwell style
slipping points where when you're you're like woke, and then
you get to a point where it's like it's too woke,
and then you're like something's about to turn it down. Yeah,
something's about to It's like something something has to give, right.
It's the it's the idea of like um past the
mic exactly. Just as a personal thing, when a man
vocally and loudly calls himself a feminist, I'm always a

(39:35):
little skeptical. I'm like, I just feel as though if
you actually are truly down with the cause, you're not
just talking about it and tweeting about it, you're actually
out there being a good guy or actually out there passing,
passing the mic, and elevating women's vaces. You're actually out
there checking your bros when they do something inappropriate to

(39:56):
a woman, when they can't call a woman. You're actually
out there walking the walk, not just walking the talk. Yes,
you know. I actually heard Wade Davis speak at Mobilizing
the Power of Women the Elevate Networks conference in New
York earlier this year, and when he got up as
one of the handful of keynote speakers in the morning
of the conference, the first thing he said was, listen,

(40:19):
I'm not here to get brownie points. I think there's
a lot of things wrong with the men who get
up at these conferences to just get brownie points. So like,
this is not about me, and I come to you
humbly and like I'm here to learn and listen. And
I was just like, damn, you don't get that kind
of a message from a lot of speakers period, but

(40:39):
especially as an expert in diversity and inclusion, which he
is a former NFL player, an educator, and a diversitating
and inclusion consultant. You know, he was incredibly tactful and
how he walked the walk, which it definitely your actions
speak louder than your words when it comes to this
kind of thing. Well, I think the is kind of big.

(41:00):
Public moments like that can really be models for how
men can get it right and men can get it wrong.
And I gotta say I was a little disappointed by
one of our faves, John Stewart, looking back at footage
of him being asked about these allegations, it's mortifying. Basically,
he just misses it as quote some internet thing, right.
He doesn't even really take the rumor seriously, and he's

(41:22):
kind of just brushes them off. And that video today,
you know, it's a few years old. Watching it in
light of the recent allegations coming out to be true,
it really doesn't play well. But conversely, I thought it
was interesting that thirty Rocks Judy Friedlander really showed a
different model for how c ks comedy colleagues could really
hold them accountable and support the women who were coming forward.

(41:43):
When Freedlander was asked about sexual assault in the comedy world,
he said, there's a big rumor. I think you know
who I'm talking about. I've only ever read things on Gawker.
I got alarded to it a year ago when it
was online I don't generally deal with him. He's been
to me, so I know nothing about it. But if
anyone in the comedy community has been be used by anyone,
I support them a hundred percent. Whoever's doing it, no

(42:03):
matter how big or small, I hope they do time
for the crime. And you know, I bet that wasn't
an easy thing to do. I bet that did have
consequences for him. But there's a right way to be
an ally when you're a man, and there's a wrong
way to be an ally when you're a man. And
I think moments like this really show us how folks
can get it right or get it wrong. Yeah, and

(42:23):
it it involves taking risks to your own personal professional
credibility or potential, you know, like calling out like the
big fish in the scene does not come without consequences.
Absolutely absolutely. Let's take a quick break and talk a
bit more about what this means for c KS movies
and for the media landscape going forward. And we're back.

(42:54):
We were just talking about Louis c K and sort
of how he was able to function as a creep
in Hollywood for so long. And I would be remiss
to talk about Louis c K without mentioning that creepy,
creepy movie I Love You Daddy. To me, there is
no better evidence of how secure c K felt in

(43:15):
his status and in his standing in Hollywood and in
the New York comedy scene, and the fact that he
felt it was appropriate and a good idea to write, direct,
and self finance a movie called I Love You Daddy
that deals heavily with a seventeen year old high school
student possibly having sexual relations with a much older man,

(43:38):
mind you, in the style of other potentially noted creep
Woody Allen. Yeah, basically is a film whose plotline plays
homage to the Woody Allen era, in which like this creative, fumbling,
bumbling older man finds an inspiration in a muse who

(43:58):
is like basically barely like or in this case not legal. Yeah,
if you've ever seen Manhattan, I Love You Daddy, basically
it's an homage to Manhattan, wherein I think it's Brookshields
with fifteen is the love interest for very adult Woody Allen,
and it's just seen as a thing. And I think
the fact that Louis c K decided to pay homage

(44:20):
to Woody Allen, in my mind, it just makes me think, like, wow,
you really were Like this is like a this is
not subtle, right, Actually, I'm a Madison had a great
tweet about something else, but it reminded me so much
of this. This is like a movie where in the
serial killer sends taunting letters to the police. It's like,
we get it, dude, you're a creep, Like how many
other ways could you try to tell us that you're

(44:42):
a creep? It's so insane and you're right, like the
hootspa on this guy to think that he could get
away with that while he's busy doing this kind of
jerk off, you know, assault type strategy, Like why would
you do that? Because you no longer for your consequences
because you're very powerful and you're untouchable or so he thought,

(45:04):
and your powerful friends will all fall in line to
protect you because you're a great comedian like that. Like,
it's no question to me that he very clearly felt secure,
secure enough to make what I feel like it's such
an obvious, horrible idea of a movie, particularly in this
cultural climate, like even if these allegations about him never
came to light, even if they never came to be true,

(45:25):
making a movie about your seventeen year old daughter having
sex with a grown man, and you're sort of a
moral ambiguity around that is weird. Regardless, it takes a
lot of like you said, Huspa, to make a movie
like that in this climate and think it will just
be fine, yeah, and will. To be clear, we have
not seen this film ourselves. Alexander Schwartz and The New

(45:47):
Yorker sums it up in really what she describes as
the only generous way to read I Love You, Daddy,
which she says is as a portrait of male cowardice.
What kind of man would be so shamefully pathetic as
to avoid confronting the famous geezer who may or may
not be screwing his underage daughter because that geezer has

(46:08):
offered to read his latest script, the same man presumably
who winces but doesn't intervene, as his Dumbo comedian buddy
Charlie Day describes at gleeful length all the ways that
the man's daughter has probably been done spring Break. As
is often the case with the roles that Louis writes
for himself, there is a strong note of masochistic pleasure

(46:31):
in this extreme passivity. Louis famously obsessive and controlling of
his work. He writes, he directs, he edits, he acts,
he produces, he distributes, he does it all. Likes to
play losers who are at the mercy of others. Often
those others are women. It's hard not to wonder, in
the wake of Thursday's revelations, to what extent Louis has

(46:53):
used this persona to shield his reputation. But cowardice is
not just an avoidance of a moral stance. It is
a moral stance too, and not a flattering one. So basically,
in the movie, he's got this powerful older filmmaker who
he really admires, who he doesn't necessarily want to confront
about whether or not he's sleeping with his teenage daughter.

(47:16):
And like we're supposed to empathize with that kind of ambiguity, right,
And just like you were talking about before, how his
comedy and his show kind of served to launder his
own behavior and sort of put this sort of mask
of what does it all mean? Let's ask quote tough
questions about bad behavior of men and just asking questions, right, Like,

(47:37):
I feel like the film really sort of puts a
veneer of this is these are smart alreadie people having
smart already conversations about whether it's cool to have sex
with a fourteen year old. It almost sounds like he's
using his art or the this character that he seems

(47:58):
to play over and over again as a way of
denying his own responsibility in his own life. Absolutely at
maybe I'm not doing this. Maybe it's all just happening
to me, that infinite victimhood that honestly, I dated people
every every like dude I've dated, is like, I'm just

(48:18):
the victim here, And a lot of the controlling and
abuse of men that I've encountered in my life, whether
I was in a relationship with them or not, are
constantly feeling like victims, like hapless SAPs that just you know,
just want to love and be loved. I think Louis
plays that up so much, and I think it's no
coincidence that you see that in men who can come
off a little controlling in toxic. Is that constant shirking

(48:39):
of responsibility by seeing you as the victim of your
own life instead of having any agency or power or
responsibility over your actions so common place. It's so common. Yeah,
And I think kind of back to the movie, even
though I think I've talked at length about how gross
I think this movie is. Even beyond that. Something that

(48:59):
really troubles is that we give men like LOUII the
space to tell these stories. I'm in general sick of
the overcrowding of our media landscape with stories like this,
stories about men grappling with you know, wanting younger women
and all of that. Like, I just I'm done with that, right.

(49:21):
Something that I often say that people give me a
lot of heat for is I don't actually read books
by men. I'm just sick of it something against men.
I just I get it. I feel like we have
heard these stories so often. What new thing could Louis
c K tell us about, you know, the human experience? Right?
And I just feel like, for so long we have

(49:42):
given men this past to make whatever kind of stories
they make, and people just take it seriously. Well, that's
why Tigna Taro's One Mississippi is so refreshing. Which, by
the way, did you hear her interview that chucked in
on It's It's a It's a amazing I love Ti
Tario again. She was one of the earliest people to
really call c K out and That's another thing that

(50:04):
really pissed me off about the situation. How many women,
how many women showrunners, women front runners, are going to
go down because of c KS. Pamula Auden's better things.
She's out there, like doing her own show about complicated women,
made a certain age stories that you don't see. Is
his situation going to like taint her project? Is his

(50:27):
situation going to taint tak Nataro's project because he sort
of like helped her get famous. Because when you look
at allegations of wrongdoing by men, so often we expect
the women in their orbit to answer for their wrong doings.
Look at Hillary Clinton, look at Huma ab Deen? Right,
how often do we expect women who are in the
orbit of powerful men, who who mess up, who mess up?

(50:51):
How often do we look at them and say, like,
where was she? What did she do? It was a relationship?
Stand by your man or not kind of song get
played over over again, But hopefully, because Luis E. K
is not romantically attached to any of these women, that
won't happen. But when I think about Pamuela Alden, I
only think about her in relation to c K, and
I think that there was a creatively correct. I was

(51:13):
just reading earlier today about how in comedy for women,
so often women aren't taken seriously as creators until they're
attached to a powerful man. I love Ray's Insecure, but
it was really Larry Wilmore kind of putting a stamp
on that that got her where she is and got
her that recognition and saying, Okay, we'll give her some
legitimacy as a content creator. Yeah. And I feel like

(51:34):
ether Ray is such a good example, like tig Natara
of like maybe we should give women comedians more money
to make more creative stuff. There are so many more
stories to be told than this. Woody Allen bs rerun
absolutely absolutely correct. And again I'm hoping that this moment
will really be a sea change, not just around the

(51:56):
fact that we're sick of powerful men getting away with
sex crimes, but also so we're sick of the stories
of men dominating our media landscape. I hope this moment
is a galvanizing one for women content creators and women comedians,
women writers and directors, and every aspect from agents and
managers to people who are behind the camera. I want

(52:16):
this to be a moment that says Listen, men have
had their run in Hollywood. It's our turn. Clearly you're
messing everything up. Clearly you can't keep it in your pants.
Clearly we're all sick of it. Anyone else, We're sick
of your stories because they're whack and tired. Sit down
and let us have a chance at the helm. Yes.
Also did to that for politics, Yes, and all the things.
Really like everything. I know, people chafe at that idea

(52:40):
of like, you've had your turn, give us a shot.
But that is valid. That is valid, and I think
I couldn't have said it better myself. The good news
is that you don't have to look very far for
evidence that the market is hungry for more stories, not
the Woody Allen rerun. Even this past weekend, women lead

(53:00):
films were crushing it at the box office. The new
Francis McDorman movie called Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri, open
to the third highest purse screen average for any movie
this year, with a stellar three thousand dollar take from
just four screens. It played alongside the movie with the

(53:20):
highest purse screen opening of that year, The Greta Gerwig
written and directed and Sores Ronan starring Ladybird which earned
per screen in its debut and widened in its second
weekend to become a bona fide specialty cinema smash hit,
which f y. I. I saw Ladybird over the weekend,
and honestly, it doesn't surprise me that a movie that

(53:41):
treats young women as actual thinking beings who have desires
and needs and all of that, as fully authentic people
was a smash hit this past weekend. And it can
really be seen in tandem with Luis c K's I
Love You Daddy. We're in his seventeen year old daughter.
It's just this object of desire right exactly exactly that,

(54:02):
And so I don't think it's a coincidence at all
that these authentic women fronted movies with these strong female
protagonists have been doing dang busters in light of all
these horrible allegations against powerful men in Hollywood. I also
see this playing out on the small screen, by the way,
how I am hungry for women led dramas. I think
The Crown was doing incredibly well. We've already discussed how

(54:24):
Reese Weatherspoon's production studio is changing the game with things
like Big Little Lies. I think as a TV fiend
who doesn't really actually get to the movies very often.
I don't know why. I'm not really a movie person,
but I am a TV series binge watcher extraordina um.
I see this playing out in my Netflix account as well,
and I want more of it. It's kind of like

(54:45):
music too. I give my dad and a lot of
the guy friends in my life a lot of credit
for introducing me to some of the most iconic bands
that I've ever loved, a lot of classic rock, And
then I realized, in the past decade, you don't listen
any women led bands, Like what is wrong with you?
Let me introduce you to some bands that you've been

(55:07):
missing out on as a musical artist, who you've been
missing out on. Although, to his credit, my dad did
introduce me to Janelle Mone Oh what yeah? Get it? Dad? Dad?
Areas Dad Aries? My Jewish white father went to a
Jenelle Money concert solo in Hartford, Connecticut, twenty minutes from
our house in the pouring rain, stayed to like meet

(55:29):
her backstage, pretty sure he was the only white Jewish
suburban father in the whole place, by the way, and
got her signed. I'm sure she was like, where's your
adopted black daughter. Oh he was so proud. I love it.
I love it well. Sminty listeners, we want to hear
from you. What was your take on Louie's statement about
these allegations? Did it seem genuine to you? Why am

(55:51):
I not? What's your take on why men masturbade in
front of women who are non consenting? And did anybody
else sort of catch themselves me being too easily placated
and then thankfully getting enraged all over again? The more
I read about this and is that problematic? Like? Do
you find yourself too easily placated by the celebrities you
formerly admired? Um in a statement of quote unquote apology

(56:17):
like this one, It's easy to do, totally understandable. So
hit us up on social media. You can find us
on Instagram at stuff Mom Never Told You, on Twitter
at mom Stuff Podcast, and as always on email at
mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com