SMNTY Classics: #MeToo Update

A & B discuss some updates on #MeToo, and take a look back at how it started in this classic episode. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hello, this is Annie and this is Bridget and you're
listening to stuff mom never told to you. And we've
got another update for you, another update episode. Um, so
we're updating the episode that you, Bridget and Emily did

(00:29):
on me to the me Too movement. As we write this,
Harvey Weinstein has turned himself into the police department. The
NYPD released a statement saying that Weinstein was arrested, processed,
and charged with rape, criminal sex act, sex abuse, and
sexual misconduct for incidents involving two separate women. He has played.
Not guilty, Yeah, right, not guilty, my ass. I'm supposed

(00:53):
to say, like blah blah blah video groping somewhat. Yeah,
I hope one would hope that would be enough, one
would hope. So. Um, since Me Too took off in April,
over two hundred and twenty powerful men have been accused
of sexual misconduct. By the time you hear this, it's

(01:16):
probably more than Oh, it's if we should have like
a ticking clock. McDonald's has you know, like a hundred
thousand served? Yeah, are there the dead clock, traded dead clock,
the creep clock? What's the creep clock? The creep clock
that should be what we have creep every minute, okay, um,
Vox and Glamour both have comprehensive list before this creep

(01:39):
clock comes to be. You can look there of those
accused and the ramifications to them, And that was one
of the things I'm really interested in. What happens after
um and a lot of times nothing but um and
a disheartened number of cases. There have been no ramifications
as of yet. However, this is changing, and it is

(02:00):
changing the attitudes of several organizations and industries and sparking
a lot of conversations. Take for instance, streaming services. A
while back, Spotify announced a new policy of not streaming quote,
hate music or the music of artists that engage in
hateful conduct. Pandora and Apple Music came out with similar
policies soon thereafter. Now, this was largely in response to

(02:20):
drop R kelly music from their playlists. Unless even living
under a rock you probably know R Kelly has been
accused of some very very very serious allegations, including keeping
underaged girls locked up in his house against their will
in a kind of sex cult. Now we should mention
that Spotify just recently backed off of this new policy,

(02:42):
but it does seem indicative of some sort of cultural
change around this conversation. Furthermore, if you look at Netflix
and Amazon Prime, we've got Kevin Spacey. Spacey is currently
under investigation in Massachusetts and seeking some sort of unspecified treatment.
He was fired from the show House of Cards and
replaced and really, Scott's be all the money in the world.
You've also got um. The allegations against Jeffrey Tambor have

(03:06):
him leaving Amazon's Transparent, and it's sort of changed the
conversation around Netflix's new season of Arrested Development, especially after
several male cast members of the show dismissed Jessica Walters,
recounting of the time he shouted at her on set
in a way she'd never been yelled at before. That
pissed me off so much. I was so angry about that.

(03:27):
Jessica Walter is a national treasure. Also, Jason Bateman, if
you read that interview, and he's apologized for it now,
But if you read that interview, there are so many
disgusting things to choose from. But the thing that pissed
me off the most, if you saw me on Twitter,
I was really ranting about this one, is that he
glosses over the behavior by saying over like a family,

(03:47):
Like how often is family used to gloss over like
really really toxic stuff, Like the fact that he said
we're like a family, It just seems like gas lighting that, oh,
we're a family there, or the thing that you experienced
as abuse wasn't really abuse, It was just help family
treat each other. I thought that was disgusting. Two, the
fact of the matter is he's explaining to Jessica Walter

(04:10):
how dynamics on set work before he was even born.
Jessica Walter had a golden globe. So I don't want
to hear it, Like, how dare he explained to Jessica
Walter how on set dynamics work in acting? Who does
he think he is? Yeah? That made me. I was
so angry. He apologized and whatever. David Cross also apologized,

(04:34):
but in true David Cross fashion, his apology it was
this weird and it just made me feel exhausted on
behalf of his wife, Amber Tamblin. Before Amber Tamplin, Oh,
I didn't know they were very Oh they're married, and
it's the whole thing. Okay, Okay, we'll talk about that later. Um,

(04:55):
if we look at classical music. James the Vine of
the Metropolitan Opera was the spend in December after three
men came forward with sexual assault allegations. Um. They say
that it was when they were teenagers. Um. And when
it comes to opera, an art form largely written and
composed by white men over the centuries, there's this whole
conversation happening about how can we make it more inclusive?

(05:17):
And an Italian production of Carmen recently changed the ending
so that instead of being killed by her abuser, Carmen
kills him. Good. Yeah, you should see the look on
Bridget's face. I'm a little scared to be in here
with her right now. Well you got me all angry
with that Jason Bateman thing, and then now now I'm
now you're here and you're ready for a fight. I

(05:38):
can see it. If you look at news and TV
and politics, there are so many creeps out there. Here's
an abbreviated list. Mario Batali stepped down from his company
and TV show indefinitely. Morgan Freeman was accused by eight
women of harassment and sexual misconduct. Freeman denies these accusations,
and so far Visa has dropped him as the voice
for their commercials. And there's also some chatter about after

(06:00):
a provoking his Lifetime Achievement award. Yes, Um, and things
happened very very quickly. Um, as we were recording this,
we looked into things that have have changed. So maybe
when you're hearing it there's been some developments, but as
of now, this is the lay of the land. Um.
You've also got John Lasseter, chief creative officer at Pixar

(06:21):
and Want Disney Animation, who is taking a six month
leave after accusations surfaced in November of quote grabbing, kissing,
and making comments about physical attributes. UM. Charlie Rose after
accusations of sexual harassment surfaced from eight Women's CBS fired
him and PBS dropped his show. He's been trying to
get his show going about what happens to sexual harassers

(06:43):
after being accused? Can you think of anything more absurd?
It's difficult. It's difficult. Him and his guest will probably
sit around and open robes. Bridget, I really didn't need
a picture that I'm just saying I saw on Twitter
someone was like, because that was his his biz. One
of his things was was like inviting co workers over

(07:06):
to his house. Under the guise of like all work
trip and then being like an open robe, which is
such a Oh, it's just so, it's just it's so horrible.
It's almost a cliche. You know. I did see on
Twitter someone said Charlie robes more like and I thought, yes, yes,
good one. Um. Steve Wynn resigned from the Republican National

(07:29):
Committee after several allegation service describing a decade long pattern
of this sort of sexual harassment behavior. He blamed it
on the quote continued work of my ex wife, Elaine
win with who I am involved in a terrible, nasty
lawsuit which she is seeking a revised divorce settlement. See,
I had a feeling that there was a woman responsible
for the behavior. Usually what a man does something that's

(07:51):
totally inappropriate, it's usually never hit fault, and there's usually
some woman somewhere that's done something. Loo looked at him
the wrong way, and that's why he did it. Yeah,
and it makes sense, it does the way to go, Steve,
he really cracked cracked the case one. I'm so exhausted
and disgusted by each and every one of these men.
I'm sorry. I'm having trouble holding back my disdain yes, um.

(08:12):
And also, if we look at religion, um, the me
Too movement is impacting religious communities and organizations. At the
end of this may, which is in case someone is
listening to it in a different year. Paige Patterson, the
president of the Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, stepped down in
response to a letter denouncing him signed by thousands of women.

(08:35):
Their primary grievance had to do with the advice he
handed out to women who had been raped or beaten,
and specifically the advice that he gave to one woman
who is being abused by her husband, pray for him,
don't go to the authorities. Um. Note though, that while
Patterson was asked to step down, he still carries the
title President emeritus, still lives on campus, and still gets
a paycheck. Wow. Yeah. Also, returning to the world of politics,

(08:59):
we should also men. Eric Schneiderman, who was a pretty
vocal supporter of me too Now for women, accused the
New York Attorney General a physical and sexual abuse. The
things he was accused of are horrifying, slapping women during
sex unconsensually. You know, it was really really nasty stuff.
One of his ex lovers said that he used to

(09:20):
slap her around non consensually, and that in bed he
would say things to her like you're my brown slave. Yeah.
And he was also I believe he made threats to
women's He did, and he clearly was abusing his power.
He would say things to women who he wanted to control.
He would say things like I am the law. Yeah.

(09:41):
It's terrifying. It is um and this movement is not
limited to the United States either. There are plenty of
examples of me too in other countries and international listeners.
Please write in. Please write in if we don't mention you,
or if we do and you've got more details, we'd
love to hear from you. But for sample. In Russia,
the me too movement has been framed as a witch hunt,

(10:03):
a concerted effort by l g B, t q I
folks and feminist to gain power. The conversation might have
started to change in February when three female journalists accused
the head of the Foreign Affairs Committee of Russia's lower parliament,
the Douma, of sexual harassment. A review by the Ethics
committee came back with no evidence. Over twelve news organizations

(10:25):
pulled their journalists from the DUMA in response UM in
a case of you can fire me, I quit, the
DOOMA stripped those organizations of their accreditation. In Mexico, NPR
reported that women in Mexico's entertainment industry began coming forward
in larger numbers in March, but most of the women
that came forward experienced severe backlash. Another hashtag band trending

(10:48):
yo no denuncio porque or I don't report because according
to a recent survey, almost fifty of Mexican women had
experienced harassment. In Italy, the me too movement has faced
back lash as well. One of the first people to
accuse Harvey Weinstein, Asia Argento, has had her motives questioned
in her own country. Argenta said she left Italy largely

(11:10):
because she was being slut shamed and the atmosphere um
after Italian director lost his relationship with Warner Brothers in
response to accusations from ten women of molestation. This spawned
a lot of media coverage in support of the director.
In Japan, in early May, women protested with signs reading
hashtag me too and hashtag with you in response to

(11:32):
remarks from the country's finance minister that dismissed the charges
of sexual harassment against his previous deputy. He said, no
such thing as a sexual harassment charge, which is untrue.
I mean clearly yes from what I read. I mean,
I'm not a Japanese law scholar, but from what I
read from people that are, that is a false statement

(11:54):
that he has made. Um. So that's kind of the
state of things. This is always changing and spreading and
um really powerful, really powerful movement. Um. So let's let's
take a look back at how how that movement upstarted.

(12:21):
Now for today's episode, we have to have a trigger warning.
It is about issues dealing with sexual assault sexual harassment.
So if that's something that is tough for you, just
know that that is what today's episode is about. Today
we're going to be talking about the viral campaign me Too.
If you have Facebook or social media, you've probably seen
people in your life posting me too. This viral campaign

(12:43):
actually came as a response to Harvey Weinstein, who is
this very very powerful Hollywood producer and filmmaker. These bombshell,
bombshell bombshell allegations that came out that he has been
sexually harassing and sexually assaulting women in Hollywood for many
many years, and that a culture of silence, a culture
of looking the other way, a culture of fear, a

(13:06):
culture of intimidation, really allowed for a sexual abuser to
fester in this industry. And it took a lot of
women standing up to have anything be done about it
and even have a national conversation about it. Despite the
fact that it seems like it's been an open secret
in Hollywood for quite a while. It really does seem
like a watershed moment in this conversation. I feel like

(13:30):
the access Hollywood bus conversation by our commander in Chief
was the match that lit a lot of this fire
across the United States, in particular around the everyday, commonplace
rape culture that we live in. And now this sort
of movement, this energy, this frustration is totally righteous anger

(13:53):
is manifesting in this interestingly targeted way. So I look
back at that tape and I think, how wo did
this guy become our president? I don't know. I thought
that was the end. Oh my god, I was so
naive to think people cared. But I do think you're right.
I think the fact I think for a lot of women, fems,
gender nonconforming folks, many of us have gone through sexual thought,

(14:16):
sexual harassment. You look at the numbers, it's a pretty
common thing. And so I think you're right, and that
going through the process of watching that tape, having Trump
become president, that kind of lit this anger that had
been bubbling under the surface for so long where all
of us are like no more, yeah, no more, Like
no more sexual predators achieving success in this economy. There

(14:41):
is no way that I think. This is where I
always go back to, like capitalism can be good, and
I really want to see people who are predators, who
are criminal in their use of power, coercion, sexual assault, rape,
that they are not allowed to succeed. That should be
a deal breaker in terms of getting a job, getting

(15:01):
a promotion, running companies being successful, Like let's make that
not possible anymore. And even beyond that, for me, it's
not just make sure they're not successful. We shouldn't get
them on a stage and applaud them, Like that's what
bugs me so much about things like that. You're Woody
Allen's of the world. Not only do I want to
see them have massive, massive failures on a on a
grand public sale, when I see them get trotted up

(15:25):
on an oscar stage and like a standing ovation. That's
the thing. They shouldn't be shamed and voted off the island.
What are we doing that we allow these abusers to
not just get financial and professional success, but then we
uplift them like, oh, they're so great? What are we doing?
I just think it's a weird distinction that people can
somehow and it kind of like problematic faiths and that

(15:47):
you can hold someone's body of work separate from the
way that they conduct themselves personally. But a we shouldn't
be able to look the other way when we're talking
about serial predators who commit assault, sexual assault, any assault,
really and be now we're talking about sexual assault at work,
So now this isn't just some dark secret sweep under

(16:10):
the rug. We're talking about people who are a threat
to women in their offices, who are a threat to
women and men in many cases by using their professional
power as a vehicle for control in a sexual domain. Well,
that's one of the things I think is world of
glossed over in the Harvey Weinstein situation is that because
we're talking about famous A list actresses, it can seem

(16:33):
like this is this like this Hollywood thing. But at
the end of the day, These are women in the workplace,
and that even though they're famous, they're on TV, they're
a lists or magazines, it is a sexual assault and
harassment in the workplace situation. And I think that that
can get lost when you're talking about like glittery A listers,
and we sometimes overestimate the power of glittery A listers
as compared to the behind the scenes people who make

(16:55):
decisions about what rules they're going to get. So, yeah,
you look at these beautiful, successful, flashy A listers and
you think they're so powerful, How could this happen to them?
Like surely people like when of Paltrow was wouldn't be
happening to her. But you think about it, you know,
when it comes to acting, these people were a lot
of times just sort of getting their start and just
kind of working up the ranks of Hollywood, and so

(17:15):
they actually maybe didn't have that much power. Also, it
just goes to remind you that it doesn't matter how
successful you are, you're still just a piece of ask
to somebody. And the most recent everyday assault that I experienced,
which I don't even want to go into details because
I'm not into the me too kind of assault, sharing
culture so much. We're going to talk about more, But

(17:35):
it was just like an everyday stranger assaulting me, basically
groping me in public, reminded me that, like, yeah, I'm
a boss, like I am, I own my own company.
I feel on top of the world right now, I'm
like having a great day. I'm going through the world
minding my own business, and I am still dehumanized by
someone else. It does not matter how successful you are.

(17:57):
That is what assault reminds you of, is that you
are nothing. It makes you feel like it doesn't matter
how much brilliance or gusto or power you feel like
you have, You're still just a piece of ast somebody.
And I'm horrified that that happened. But the framing that
you just gave, I think is so important because I
think as women, we are taught that it's good to

(18:19):
be a strong, badass woman. You know, no one's gonna
mess with me, blah blah blah. But we are still susceptible, right.
People look at women who project as very strong, as
very assertive, the kind of woman who would you know,
punch you if you did something wrong, and those women
are still being assaulted. So it really doesn't matter what
kind of woman you are, what kind of person you are.

(18:40):
Sexual harassment and sexual thought happens to all of us,
and it happens in so many industries beyond the entertainment
industry too, although the entertainment industry is uniquely poised for
this kind of thing because beauty and sexuality and sensuality
are such a form of currency for actors really, given
the nature of their work. But you've seen this firsthand

(19:02):
in the world of progressive politics. I have seen this firsthand.
Um And so again, the thing that really throws me
about the situation that I experienced firsthand is that you
would think that progressive politics, you know, these are male feminists,
these are lefties, these are people that you can really trust.
That is definitely how I entered the world of progressive
politics thinking. And I quickly realized that that is not

(19:25):
the case. And so a few years ago I had
this job at a consulting firm called It's Given Media
here in d C. We also had offices in California
and New York. We were this bustling progressive firm. We
worked with folks like um Ultra Violet Um. We worked
with folks like Move on. Basically, it was a who's
who of power players on the progressive left right, so

(19:45):
big lefty organizations, and our firm's founder, Trevork Fitzgibbon, ended
up shuttering the firm under many, many, many allegations of
systematic sexual harassment and assault by both co workers and science.
And so how this played out for us is that
we went to a retreat in Austin, Texas. We were

(20:07):
our remote office, so we had people who worked from
home or from different cities. But this is one of
the first times we were all together physically in one
in one room, and people started sharing stories and so
one person would be like, oh, well I got this
text or oh this happened to me, and before you
know it, everyone has a story. And so it really
was one of those things that snowballed where we all

(20:28):
came in thinking, oh, this was a one off thing
or this weird thing happened with me, and then realized, oh,
my god, this is a systematic thing. It's happening to
multiple people, and really what you're talking about is unwanted
sexual advances from Fitzgibbon, the founding partner, and the people
comparing notes and sharing stories were all the women in
the office. Okay, so this is like, oh, maybe he

(20:51):
just invited me to his hotel late at night because
he was like having a weird night, and maybe, you know,
maybe it was just me something you can look past.
And then you start to com hair notes and realized, oh,
this is a thing like these advances, these unwanted assaults
in some cases, um, and granted these are accusations as
they currently stand, right, but your office, like you've said

(21:14):
in the past, gossip became a very powerful tool for
understanding that you were not alone and experiencing this kind
of weirdness from your boss. Yeah. And I think what
is so fascinating to me about the situation is the
way that none of us in that office were famous, right,
Like none of us were Hollywood A listeners. But the
way that the Weinstein case really mirrored what happened with

(21:35):
my progressive firm, and so things like it just being
an invite that you're like, oh, well, that was unusual.
So one of the things that a lot of the
women who made accusations against Harvey Weinstein pointed out is
that it often started with meeting for drinks or an
invitation to go to a film screening one on one
that kind of thing, and Charter, if it's given, definitely
did that same kind of thing, where it's an invitation

(21:57):
for something that seems intimate, that gives you pause but
doesn't necessarily strike you as this person is trying to
sexually assault me, right right, Well, in Weinstein's case, they
would show up and he would be like in a
bathroom in a hotel room, so it eventually would get
to that thing. So like Lupita and Nyango, actually, right
when Weinsteine first came into her orbit, she was still
a student, and it often, you know, early on was

(22:19):
dinner's invitations to see movies and how he did these
specific things to make her feel like it was safe.
So it would be like, oh, come to this movie screening,
you can bring a friend if you want, or an
invitation to dinner, and when they get to dinner, there's
a female assistant there, but then the assistant leaves, and
so it's done in a way where you know it
seems off, but it's not necessarily at least to start

(22:41):
with over enough to be like this is bad, Okay,
they just want to hate because a I think that
one on one meetings are critical for everyone's career success
plan and simple B. I've been on many of these
kind of hangouts with your mentor and then you're like,
oh God, is he going to hit on me. Have
you ever has a one on one where you've where
you bring your resume and it's a date. Yeah. I

(23:03):
remember distinctly knowing that I was in trouble when this guy,
who was a senior consultant on a campaign and I
was like the young intern on the campaign, took me
out to dinner. I thought we were going to talk
about work and career stuff, and he made a point
of showing me that it was a four bottle of
wine that he just ordered for us to to have,
and I was like, I'm in trouble. I'm officially in trouble.

(23:24):
This man now feels entitled to something in return for
his return on that investment. And I knew it then,
and I predicted the oncoming assault that would follow in
his car, you know, like, I don't want to tell
people you can't have these meetings, right, that's pensive strategy, right,
like no closed door meetings without mother there. Mother, Like

(23:45):
we can't not be able to have these meetings. And
yet this is the tactic that people who are trying
to assault others use and rely on our trust of
people to not be evil. That's exactly what the case
was in my situation working It's given, and also with
Harvey Weinstein, and so the ways in which predators use

(24:05):
these things that we all understand as parts of having
a job, you know, one on one meetings, getting drinks,
things like that, using those things to prey on people
who are vulnerable and that you're in a position of
power over. One of the things I found so fascinating
about when a Paltrow story and that really really mirrored
my own, is that when Harvey Weinstein made an advance
on her, she talks about how stunned she was. She says,

(24:26):
I thought you were my uncle, Harvey, she recalled thinking,
explaining that she had seen him as a mentor. And
for me, what struck me from that anecdote is this
idea that predators they work by making you feel special
or seen or chosen right, like when my boss suggested
that we meet it a hotel room for a drink,
part of me was like, I should just be happy

(24:48):
that he sees me and that he you know, I
thought he wanted to do that because he thought I
was successful or talented or whatever, like it's a way
of making you feel special and chosen, and that that
can be used later on to get you to do
something you don't want to do. And did you ever
meet up with him? Uh? Well, funny story. So how
not funny? But I feel like you told me the

(25:08):
story for it. So what went down in our case
was that anyone who knew me at the time before
I got hired at It's Given, knew that I needed
a job, right, Like I was a girl who was
a miserable at her job, and like I was telling everybody,
get me out of here, I'm so miserable. So he
sent me a couple of Facebook dms, was like, Hey,
I'm in New York. Do you want to come get
a drink in my hotel? That kind of thing. And
at the time I was like, well drinking a hotel,

(25:31):
this is a little bit off, But then again, it's
progressive politics. We're pretty we can be pretty casual. So
I ended up declining, but only because I lived in
Brooklyn and he was in Manhattan, and I was like,
whym not, I'm not getting breaker for you. I'm not
making a complicated subway trance for yourself. I was like, no, thanks.
So then later when I ended up getting my job

(25:51):
at It's Given around Thanksgiving, I lived in Richmond and
he actually lived in Richmond too, and so he invited me.
He was like, oh, we should get a drink while
we're both enriched it and I was like, cool, yeah,
I have showing up with my boyfriend and my brother
and so I'm sure he was like, well florid, Yeah,
I mean I happened to be. I mean, this was

(26:13):
all of this happenstance. I certainly, looking back, I wish
I had the foresight too, but at the time didn't
like rage quit that drink too. Yeah, he basically was like,
well by, yeah, I'll pay for the next round by.
But yeah, I mean part of me, looking back, it
seems so obvious, But I think that is what this
is about, right, Like when you're when it's happening, you

(26:35):
tell yourself, oh, like this is fine, or maybe this
is a little unusual, but maybe he's just idiosyncratic. Right,
You've got, I mean, the benefit of the doubt. I'm
not opposed to it, you know what I mean, because
I have benefited greatly from male mentors in my life.
And I always tell women, if we are only mentoring
other women, or if women are only being mentored by

(26:55):
other women, we're going to perpetuate gender wage gaps and
jen er based discrimination. That's not good for us. Right,
Diversity and mentoring people who don't exactly resemble your entire
life's experience is important, and so people like Harvey Weinstein
and Trevor fitzgiven give these decent men such a bad name.

(27:17):
And I hope it doesn't prevent us from meeting up
for drinks with people who are powerful and can actually
have influence over our careers. But it's a shame because
there are predators out there too. It's like, what the
hell are you supposed to do? So it's almost like
a double edged sword where you don't want to feel
like you're going to miss out on some sort of
career opportunity that you should be able to have access to,

(27:38):
but because you're a woman, you feel this extra added
layer of concern about it because men are creepy, And
that's why we need all the non creepy men out
there and women to actually call this stuff out right,
because it's the silence it's the culture of complicity that
keeps predators like fits Given and Weinstein rising to the

(28:00):
top like it allows them to remain powerful and influential
in a world that they should not be able to be. So, really,
a notable thing I think that you see in situations
both with things like Bill Cosby and with Weinstein is
that you have this culture where a team of assistants
and drivers and handlers and pr people all know the
drill and they all function to allow this predator to operate.

(28:25):
And so it's assistance showing up for drinks and then
knowing that they're supposed to leave after a certain amount
of time leaves you know, a woman alone with him,
or it's drivers who are looking the other way while
there's a woman drugged in his back seat while he's
driving her home. It's things like this. It's a culture
where everyone knows their role and it's a machine that
allows this predator to continue doing what they do without

(28:47):
really facing a lot of consequences. And the other component
that's common amongst so many of these stories is these
powerful influential people have not only this whole team of
folks who are complicit in looking the other way, but
they also use retaliation as a powerful follow up to
their assaults. So whether it's you know, threatening to blacklist

(29:10):
celebrities like Weinstein did, or if it's planting things in
the sort of industry gossip papers about those who dare
to speak out, victims are made well aware that the
risks of speaking out and reporting someone who's as beloved
and famous as some of these criminals are can come

(29:32):
with huge risks, and I think that's what keeps so
many women silent, including the women if it's given right,
like definitely, I mean, certainly, worrying about retaliation was a
big part of what happened that it's given. Something I
found very interesting about the Weinstein case is that in
Lupita's piece of Many York Times, she wrote that after
she rebuffed his advances time and time and time again,

(29:52):
that there was one incident at a dinner where he said,
let's cut to the chase. I think we should finish
our meal upstairs, and she was like no, and that
after she left, she was like, I felt like I
needed to make sure that everything was good. So I said, Harvey,
are we good? And he said, I don't know about
your career, but you'll be fine, and that she didn't
know if that was a threat or not. And I

(30:15):
don't I don't know about your career, but you'll be fine,
and how I mean? And she this happened when she
was still a drama student at Yale, so she wasn't
even surprised me at all. But like, how non elegant
a threat? You know what I mean? Like would an
inelegant threat? Like how obvious are you going to be
about this kind of thing? That that kind of coercion

(30:37):
is not even something you're ashamed to be that explicit about. Well,
according to this New Yorker piece by Rodan Pharaoh, which
if you have not read, is like a bombshell must
read piece, Harvey Weinstein actually had a thing about bragging
about getting dirt put in gossip magazines and dissuading of
studios from using certain actresses. Like he talked about how
he had this power over Hollywood to make things happen

(30:59):
for people or not make things happen for people. And
so I think the reason why he was so inelegant
it is because he's not ashamed of it. I'm like
being triggered right now because this feels so much like
politics it is, And I think, so what campaign life
is like. And I think what you said is so
important because it's important to even though, just like you
were saying earlier, in Hollywood, sex appeal and all of

(31:21):
that can be a kind of currency. It's not just Hollywood.
It's in so many industries. It's politics, it's medicine, it's law.
It's kind of valid. Yeah, if you if you listen
to our Silicon Valley episode, women being afraid to speak
up because of retaliation was a hallmark of the abuse
and harassment that those women faced. Yeah, And I feel
like this is causing me to like just go back

(31:41):
in my brain and go back in time, like just
thinking about all the men who I've come across who
have used their power and influence to get what they
want sexually, to get what they want out of the
people that they work with, and who have been so
unafraid to use that power and influence in a retaliatory manner.
It's just it really is like blows your mind how

(32:04):
every day and how relatable it is. And I think
that's why the whole me to campaign were so compelling,
because it made you do that, it made you go
back through every job, you've ever had, every off incident
you've ever had, every assault you've ever experienced, and be like,
this is the experience of being a woman in this country.
So we're gonna talk a lot more about the me
to campaign and how it got started after this quick

(32:25):
break and we're back. We were just getting very very
angry thinking about some of the really inappropriate things that
I think a lot of us have dealt with and
sort of why it's now kind of a watershed moment
under the me to campaign. If it seemed like everybody

(32:47):
on your social media feed was saying me too, that's
probably because they were, uh. And that's probably because sexual
harassment in the workplace is so common. One in three
women report being harassed in the workplace, and one of
four say they witnessed a coworker being hers. And this
is data from a twenties seventeen pole that you GOV
did where they surveyed almost five thousand people. And I
think that these numbers really show this is an issue

(33:09):
that most of us are dealing with. Right It's very
very common. Either you've dealt with that, someone you know
has doubt what that, your friend, your family, whoever. I
think it's just this groundswell of voices being like nope,
like if you're if you didn't know this was happening,
where have you been? And I think I've heard from
the men in my life that that was even more

(33:30):
opening for them to see all of this me too.
For me, it was like obviously, obviously me too. I
think when Alissa Milano after the one Steam story broke,
she called on people on Twitter to use that hashtag
me too if they had experienced assault or harassment in
the workplace, and according to Intercept, the hashtag me too

(33:50):
has been tweeted well over a million times in eighty
five different countries. Basically, Milano was saying, maybe if people
knew how common this experience was, we'd care a little
bit more about it. And that was certainly the experience
that I felt. But I also saw when everyone was
using the hashtag, I had this really weird mix of

(34:12):
emotions I was experiencing sort of like obviously, duh, Like
if you aren't aware that this is a widespread issue,
where have you been? But also exhaustion at the need
for us to again be sort of trotting out our
war stories or wounds, to be like, look, tell me
I'm valid, tell me this is a valid issue, and

(34:35):
I don't know. I just I felt very conflicted over
the popularity of the hashtag, which by the way, was
initially a movement started by a black activist to Rona Burke,
who back in two thousand six on my Space actually
started this me too campaign as a grassroots movement to
aid sexual assault survivors in underprivileged communities where, quote, according

(34:58):
to Ebony, rape christ centers and sexual assault workers weren't
even going. So one thing to note that when she
started this campaign, she wasn't thinking that it would be
a viral campaign or a hashtag that was short lived.
Here today, gone tomorrow. But she says that she's really
really happy to see what's happening now. She says, what's
happening now is powerful, and I salute it and the
women who have disclosed. But the power of using me

(35:18):
too has always been and the fact that it can
be a conversation starter or a whole conversation. But it
was us talking to us, and so she really started
this as a black woman talking to other underprivileged communities.
But then she writes on her website that she felt
the need to take this conversation further. And so while
she started it for underprivileged communities of color because that's
who she worked with, she realized just how prevalent this

(35:40):
was and wanted to take that conversation on a more
broader level. I wonder if we're losing something in mainstreaming it,
you know what I mean. I wonder if we also
need to bring a more specific lens to the conversation
around women of color. And you know, we know that
certain women get assaulted a lot more than other women totally,
and I think, you know, we talked about this in
our episode for HBC. U s uh, black women are

(36:03):
much less likely to report sexual assault and sex crimes. Um.
I think the conversation is great, but I'm mindful of
who it leaves out right, So I think right now
the conversation seems to be very focused on like white
powerful a list women. Actually, it was Jane Fonda who
made this point in MSNBC that so she says it's
too bad that it's probably because so many of the

(36:24):
women that were assaulted by Harvey Weinstein are famous and
white and everybody knows them. This has been going on
for a long time to black women and other women
of color, and it doesn't get out quite the same.
And so I think that she's right in that it
is an issue for other communities, but that perhaps the
main streaming of the me too campaign kind of leave
some of those communities out. I also think that we

(36:46):
don't we're not talking about gender nonconforming folks trans women
get you know, as we know, trans folks are much
more likely to be assaulted than the general public. Um
I was so proud to see Sarah McBride, who is
the National Press Secretary for the Human Rights Campaign and
was actually the first trans person to speak at the
Democratic National Convention. So shout out to Sarah. Um So.
She wrote a whole piece for Buzzbeat about how when

(37:08):
you're trans, sexual assault and sexual harassment has this added
layer because we are told as a society that transpolkes
are gross disgusting and that no one could ever possibly
want to assault them, and that the narrative around transpolkes
is this completely ridiculous stereotype of a trans person waiting
to assault somebody in a bathroom, which we know is

(37:28):
not actually happening. Um So, she writes, I stayed silent
because they knew that while many survivors are met with
disbelief in doubt when they showed their stories. Trans survivors
often also face a different kind of disbelief, one rooted
in the perception that trans people are quote too disgusting
to be assaulted. Alleged rapists and sexual harassers will sometimes
insist that they couldn't possibly have done what they've been
accused of because the person accusing them is too unattractive

(37:51):
to merit being assaulted. We've even heard that defense from
our sitting president exactly. Our sitting president has said that
it makes me want to scream, boils my blood. And
there's a part of the me To campaign that I
think was most effective in its mass consumption, which is
it got us all enraged again because of the sheer volume.

(38:16):
So whereas we've lost some things in the mainstreaming that
we need to reclaim, like a special focus on the experience,
the intersectional experience of being a trans woman, of being
a woman of color, and how it's not all the
same for every woman, we've also gained something in the
mass participation, which is a I think brought our awareness
of how commonplace this is. But be I got enraged

(38:39):
all over again and depressed quite frankly just seeing the
onslaught you know what I mean, it just felt like
too much. It felt like I'm just I want to
I want to find who all these people are in
punched in the face. I mean, I'm angry. I think
you're exactly right. I think you actually did see some
people saying Hey, If it takes millions and millions and
millions of women saying me too for you to realize

(39:01):
this is a problem, what the hell right? Like, why
should we as survivors of sexual trauma, sexual crime, sexual abuse,
sexual assault? Why should it be on us to split
open our traumas for the world to see, to get
somebody to care. Right, this is not the first time
that we've had a viral campaign about sexual assauce around women,
like hashtag yes all women. We've done this before, We've

(39:24):
done here before. And so I think one of the
criticisms I see, and I think it's frankly valid, is
that if you're the kind of person who needs to
see this amount of trauma, this amount of labor on
the path of survivors to do something and see it's
a problem, like what is going on exactly? Bridget and
I think it's important to acknowledge that for every case

(39:46):
involving sexual assault or harassment at work, there's typically more
than one party involved. So for every one of those
hashtag me too tweets, you know, where was the other player?
Where was the other person in that equation? And that's
the spotlight that our pal Liz, playing friend of the
show and the show, um, she really shed light on

(40:09):
a different take, which was this hashtag him though, like
what about him? Though? What are we going to talk
about him? Though? And really pointing the microphone in a
different direction of saying, Okay, we've heard from plenty of survivors.
When are we going to hear from men? What are
we going to hear from men on this? Yeah? And
I think I'm a big fan of not just having

(40:29):
the onus being on survivors to do the heavy lifting
and unpacking and all of that. But yeah, I almost
felt a little bit exasperated seeing so many men saying
I believe you, I believe you. I believe you. First
of all, I don't think we're doing this to have
men believe us, right, I don't get frankly, I like
I like what you were about it. I'm completely We're

(40:51):
not doing this because we want you to believe us.
We're doing it because we want you to do something
about it. Right, And so I got a little bit
irritated watching so many of my male coworkers and calls
and friends sort of virtues signaling by being like, I
believe you, I believe you, I believe you, but then
having an end there. And so I'm not someone who
is into just giving validation for a man saying I
believe you. I want you to go further. Make a

(41:13):
plan for what you're gonna do when you see your
homeboy do something out of line. Make a plan for
what you're gonna do when you see sexual harassment in
your workplace, even if you're an underling, make a plan
for it. To tell me what you are going to
do to help unpack this. Don't just pat yourself on
the back and be like, hey, women, I believe you,
do something about it. That's what I found some interesting

(41:35):
about that other hashtag that popped off from this I
did that where the men actually saying, you know what,
it turns out that in college I actually did make
a girl feel uncomfortable, or it turns out that I
was I did have more power over a woman, and
I use that to get her to go on a
date with me, or it turns out that I did
exaggerate my status or my ability to make something happen

(41:57):
for a woman because I wanted to impress her, and
that was kind of gross. Like it's so easy to
pat yourself on the back and say I'm such a
great male feminist. I believe you, blah blah blah. It's
harder to be like, here are the specific ways that
I have contributed to a toxic culture wherein sexual harassment
and sexual assault is commonplace, right, and I think it's
on us. Has done a really good job of having

(42:19):
that conversation with young men about not only understanding consent,
but understanding the responsibility of intervention when you see something
happening that is not okay and not consensual. I think
we need to have those conversations among grown ups in
the workplace and making sure assistance are not okay with
being the honey pot to set up a meeting like that,

(42:41):
and making sure drivers are gonna speak out, because I
think power and coercion in the professional domain is so
much more tangible because your salaries on the line that
that sense of power and the risk you face for
speaking out is so real that there are these systemic
ways in which we are failing people. Sure we might

(43:01):
be able to curb it on the college campus level,
with Joe Biden giving a hell of a speech about
maybe having sex with an unconscious woman isn't consensual? Dudes, like,
maybe we should all intervene when we see something like
that happening. No, which is sort of every every sort
of emotion that I've come out of the two campaign,
it all comes back to know, um, but you know,

(43:23):
seeing the men in my life on my news feed
who said I've just like the women, just like I
was saying to you off air that this has caused
me to go back and review every pseudo sexual encounter
that's ever happened to me in the professional domain or
in college or whatever, and sort of examine was that okay?
I think there are a lot of men out there
who are doing the same, and if there aren't, they

(43:44):
should be. And whether or not you're going to tweet
about it, maybe just ask yourself was that okay? And
if not, how am I going to do something better?
How am I gonna be better? In Michelle Obama's way.
That's yeah. That's the thing. Something that I was really
struck by in watching this campaign take over my personal
feed was people saying things like, oh, I had a
me too status earlier about being sexually harassed, and the

(44:05):
guy who's axually harassed me liked it. And I was like, yeah,
just like, I mean, how do you make I shouldn't
even make. I was like, I can't even make sense
of this. Are the problem is so bad and the
bad actors here are so I don't even know what
I'm saying, like egocentric. I think it's about them, It's

(44:26):
it's we're in such a place when it comes to
the conversation around sexual harassment assault that the people who
are often the perpetrators are not even seeing themselves in
that light. Somebody tweeted at us actually just the other
day um and brought this text message exchange to light
for us between a sexual assault survivor who had used

(44:47):
the status on her Facebook wall to say me too
and the person who she was talking about, texting her saying, Hey,
I'm just I wanted to let you know I'm here
if you want to talk about this, and she was like,
you're the last person I wanted to talk to, and
he was like, you know, I've I told you that
I feel bad about what happened between us. There was
no malicious intent, and you know it's not fair that

(45:09):
we both keep carrying around the psychological baggage. Kidding. He
was like, you know, we should talk about this and
get it off our chest. And she was like this,
this is not for you to get any sense of
relief from. But that's not what I'm here for. Yeah,
that's that's the thing. It's like people who are survivors
are not doing this to make the people who have

(45:32):
implemented trauma on others feel better. I mean, that's that's
the frustration of this campaign too. It's I think it's
more enraging than empowering for me, and I think there's
something worth looking into, and that like why I didn't
feel better when I posted no me too on my
Facebook status. I felt frustrated. I felt like it was

(45:52):
not super empowering, but it was something I felt compelled
to not stay silent about. I'm not here to like
glorify assault or like share my wounds. I feel like
there's something very perverse about this performance of I want
you to know the details of every person who's ever
crossed those boundaries with me. That's voyeuristic. You know at

(46:14):
its core that I'm going to share those details with
the people who I have intimate relationships in my life
as I feel they warrant sharing and no further you
know what I mean. So there's something weird about how
I how I left this campaign feeling I don't think
you're alone at all. And actually, um, someone wrote into
one of my favorite advice columns, Slates Dear Prudence, and
they wrote in feeling angry and triggered and just really

(46:37):
upset by the whole meat to campaigns. So she writes
about how this campaign was feeling really triggering for her
as a rape survivor. Her boss posted on Facebook about
how quote proud he was of all the women sharing
their stories, and she writes, at the same time, I
want to respond. I want to tell people that survivors
don't owe them their stories. I don't want people to
come away from this display of mutual pain and think
that by posting a hashtag they've done enough. I'm feeling

(46:59):
really gross doubt by all the men who seems to
have never realized this was a thing until now. I
understand how people will want to pose, but it makes
me furious. I just feel like everything I've gone through
has been reduced down to a hashtag so it can
trand on social media. And so I think You're not
alone and feeling like this is this weird, heavy burden
where you're supposed to slit open your wounds for the

(47:19):
world to see. Not everybody feels like that's going to
be an empowering or helpful thing in their life, and
I think that should be respected exactly. Not to mention
how triggering this could be. Having multiple people talking about
their trauma and their pain, how triggering and this could
be for someone who is dealing with this that kind
of thing. I mean, I know that the day that
we were talking about Weinstein all day on a loop,

(47:40):
I had to I had to leave early because I
was just like, I can't stop thinking about this, and
it's all I can think about. I think we should
take a break because I'm getting enraged and pressed all
over again. First of all, the second of all, the
good news is that there are things we can do
about this, right but there are good people who are
taking action on these issues that we can join forces

(48:03):
with and the hashtag was just the start of the conversation.
The hashtag is by no means the end of activist
momentum on this, It's just the beginning. And as a
Woody Allen I believe, came to the defense of Weinstein saying,
I hope this doesn't trigger a witch hunt. That is
exactly what I'm hoping for. Let's talk more about that

(48:24):
after a quick break and we're back. We were just
getting very righteously angry about the state of sexual assault
and sexual harassment that we're dealing with here in this country,
which is appalling. Um, we've been talking a lot about

(48:45):
Hollywood and media, but it's important to point out that
in no way is sexual assault and sexual harassment just
regulated to those fields. And so I've actually been really
really interested to see how this Weinstein case has seemingly
opened the doors to other industries having people be called
out with their toxic behavior. And so earlier this week

(49:05):
we saw Mark help Grate at NBC have a handful
of accusations from women that you worked with at NBC
and ABC. Um, just to be on the record that
he masturbated in front of an ABC News employee. In
his office and then violently threw another woman against a
restaurant window before attempting to kiss her. So I just
want to make sure like people know that if those

(49:27):
are the kinds of behaviors you hope won't cause you
to be the center of a witch hunt, think again,
because I am excited and motivated for this witch hunt,
because this is the kind of bs that we need
to call out, and people like that should not be
able to get away with that. As Linda West wrote
in The New York Times, it is a hunt, witches,

(49:47):
and we're hunting you. It's it's like, oh, I just
masturbated in front of my I masturbated in front of
a co worker and throw her up against the wall
and try to kiss her and not get called what
is this? Germany such emotional women are overreacting. Oh my god. Um. Also,
if you listen to our Silicon Valley episode, you know

(50:09):
that sexual harassment for tech employees is a is a
real problem, and so earlier this week we saw a
blogger and former Microsoft tech evangelist Robert Scobel get some
pretty intense allegations from women saying that he groped them,
that he would attack them, and he ended up sort
of blaming alcoholism for those for that behavior. M that's

(50:30):
sad and real, but also not an excuse. I mean,
I I don't alcoholism and addiction issues cause a whole
host of things and people's lives. But I think he
can be both, like, oh, he has a serious mental
health problem. He needs help, and you're gonna have to
actually like be responsible for your own actions anyway, exactly. Actually,
just yesterday Kevin spacey Um, he came out that he

(50:52):
had made advances to an actor who was just fourteen
at the time, and you know people, and then there's
been rumors about him for the long this time that
he's been kind of a toxic, predatory person. And I
think that, like it just goes to show you that
it's not just women, it's it's a prevalent issue for
all kinds of folks. Well, and I guess the gay
community is up in arms today because his response it was,

(51:16):
excuse me, I'm gay, Like I'm going to use that
as a shield. Yeah, being a gay man and making
a sexual advance toward a child, those are two different things. Like,
I'm I'm almost horrified that you could try to conflate
them like that's almost like a that's a pr strategy
that is so sleazy and toxic that I can't even

(51:37):
believe that someone told him that was a good idea,
that like, oh, I will excuse myself trying to make
a sexual advance toward a literal child by saying I'm gay.
What no, no, no, no, no no no, kind of
like saying you're sweet old president too, right, which president?
Kind of like George H. W. Bush who last week,

(51:59):
after it was made clear that he regularly tells dirty
jokes and then pinches the bottoms of young women posing
in photos next to the former president, his team released
a statement saying he's just a sweet old guy who does,
in fact pinch women's bottom. That's what I found so weird.
They're not he doesn't pinch bottoms, are saying he does.

(52:22):
Kind of a break that's his thing, that he's a
charming old man who pinches bottoms. And we were all
just like, what are you kidding me? And that just
goes to show you how far we have to go
in this conversation. It's not just about me too. In
a world where the perpetrators would like your status, it's
apparently defining what consent is again and again, and not

(52:45):
just for college boys pronass men like George H. W.
Bush knowing that you can't hide behind you're sort of
senile behavior as being an excuse. So as you've been saying,
which I think it goes to show that this is
not relegated to any single industry, It is not relegated

(53:06):
to people of any single sexual orientation. Um. It has
everything to do with power, and it has a lot
to do with what's happening at work, because when people
are using their professional power and influence for a means
to coerce you into sexual activity that is non consensual,
then it's especially disgusting going off that. Something I found

(53:26):
really really gonna be telling about how bad a situation
we're in with this is that earlier this month, BuzzFeed
put out a call they wanted to know who are
the hard of you wine scenes of your industry. So
if you're you know, a mathematician, who is the guy
that everyone knows as a creep that has been getting
away with it? And I was when I saw that,
I was like, yeah, great, like out these creeps totally

(53:46):
like let's do this. I'm in that ended up sort
of spinning off into what they called the Media Men List.
And this was a crowdsourced Google doc where it had
dozens and dozens of names of men who had done
various inappropriate at things and these things. And I should
say it's all allegations. The list makes it very clear that, um,
you know, take the list with the grain of salt
because it's just anonymous allegations, so you know, know that

(54:09):
going in. But what I found really telling him aout
this list is that it ranges from things like sliding
into someone's d m s and being weird to outright
you know, assault or rape, and then things that are
not sexual in nature. Like one of the people who
was on the list is a man who, while his
inappropriate behavior was not sexual in nature, it was like

(54:30):
threatening and bullying, and so it was things like intimidating
interns and making them feel like if they crossed him
in some way that he would retaliate against them, so
it wasn't sexual. Um, that also had a racial component
where he would sort of tokenize employees of color and
threaten them in that way, saying, oh, well, I'm the
tastemaker of black writers around here, and so if you want,

(54:53):
you know, to be the black writer on our team,
you better play ball with me. But it wasn't sexual.
It's just weirdly intimidating and a an inappropriate exchange of power. Well,
it's funny because it sounds like this is a tale
as old as time, right, like influence power wielding that
influence in power. It happens every day. It happens every
and some of it is illegal and some of it's

(55:13):
not totally so it is you know, I can almost
hear the outcry of that group that Trump met with
which we covered in the specialsau that's right when we
were tackling title nine, the mothers of accused I'm sorry,
falsely accused rapists whose lives have been ruined because some

(55:35):
girl regretted a night with their boyfriend basically. And I
can hear those folks lighting up there tiki torches already
because the line between white supremacists and my son's Yeah,
I can almost like hear the beads of sweat forming

(55:57):
on those folks as brows. Because if you think about it,
the micratization of gossip through the Internet can be used powerfully,
and some might argue can be used as a form
of influence and blacklisting, and it can be used in
a retaliatory way, just like we're trying to prevent. Now,
I'm not here saying that that's what that listens about,
but I get the Woody Allen fear of a witch hunt,

(56:20):
and at the same time, I think we need a
lot more of that kind of exposure. Well. I actually
have often argued that the reason why we are seeing
these kinds of watershed moments is exactly because of things
like social media. I think, you know, when you look
at Cosby's situation, I think that Cosby came from an
era where it's old Hollywood, where you can call someone's
pr agent and say, hey, this story, can we have

(56:42):
it killed? It's really gonna be bad for us, And
we would never be privy to any of that because
those power players are wealth, be connected and all of that.
And so that's happening in rooms where most of us
will probably never be. And I think with things like Twitter,
it has democratized people's voices and so people who largely
did not have a platform, did not have a voice,
can say, hey, like this happened to me, Hey this

(57:04):
wasn't okay. And a PR person can't call Twitter and say, hey,
can you kill this story? That's not how Twitter works.
So it's kind of this reclaiming of power and influence
and voice and giving it a sort of a more
level playing field where you know, Cosby, I'll never forget
when that story bubbled up again, there was no one
to call. There was no PR person that you could
call to make everybody stop tweeting about it. It It just was.

(57:26):
It existed. And I don't think you saw that before.
That is such a good point, and I think it's
just goes to show you that when women, especially but
but survivors of assaults across the gender spectrum get together,
like your voice can be powerful. And that's what we
saw with Me Too. But Me Too was just the beginning.
And so solidarity and a unified front and sort of

(57:48):
acknowledging each other's differences, and the unity is going to
be really critical to make this movement an effective campaign
for change. I could not agree more and so we
didn't want to end without giving you some resources. If
you're finding yourself dealing with sexual solt or sexual harassment
in general or in the workplace, here are a couple
of resources that you should know that you have at

(58:09):
your disposal. UM one is a great organization that I
know and love is the National Women's Law Center. Their
number is two O two eight five one eight. That's
two O two eight five one eighty and they're really
helpful in terms of coming up with legal resources. If
you want to take legal action against someone who is
breaking the law or or treating you in a way

(58:30):
that's inappropriate, and you want to know what your legal
resources are, there are a great, great, great resource for you.
And furthermore, don't forget to check out the eo C,
the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, who we are always giving
a little shout out to because our little labor organizer
blood in US can't can't help but mention how influential

(58:50):
they have become. And yes, they are part of the government,
so this is us relying on our taxpayer dollars and
actually cashing in on some of that investment. You can
contact them at one eight hundred six six nine four thousand,
that's one eight hundred six six nine four thousand, and
search their website at eo C dot gov for more. So,

(59:11):
Sminty listeners, we want to hear from you This is
obviously an issue that many many, many of us were
dealing with. How's it showing up in your life? How
did you feel about the me too campaign? Was it
something that you participated in? Why or why not? How
did you feel about it? If you're a dude, did
you take part in campaigns like him though? Or I
did that? How did that go for you? We really
want to hear how these campaigns are showing up in
your spaces. Yeah, I also want to hear where do

(59:34):
you want to see this go? Are you down for
the witch hunt you know what I mean? Like? Or
are you fearful of this becoming an infringement on equal
justice under the law? You know like? Is the power
of gossip in the workplace being harnessed productively? Or do
you fear its accusations? Run them up? I'm intrigued by
how nuanced our path forward really can be, and I'd

(59:54):
love to hear from you brilliant listeners on what action
you plan on taking. So get in touch with us
on Instagram. We're at stuff mom ever told you On
Twitter We're at mom Stuff podcast and we love reading
your emails at mom stuff at how stuff works dot com.
M