July 18, 2012 • 26 mins
It may come as a surprise to some, but "50 Shades of Grey" isn't all that taboo. In this Summer Short, Cristen and Caroline discuss several classic erotica titles and whether BDSM themes are bad for women.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera.
It's ready. Are you welcome to Stuff Mom Never told you?
From housetop works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.
I'm Caroline and I'm Kristen, and today is part two
(00:21):
of our Summer Reading series. Last time, we talked about
banned books, challenged books, books that people want out of libraries,
and why books that poisoned children's minds. Today, we're talking
about a more specific angle. We're talking about erotica. So
your moths for some of you out there. Yeah, well,
(00:43):
we're gonna keep this conversation PG, but we are going
to talk about erotic fiction because it is all the
rage this summer um. I promised in the first episode
that I was gonna keep fifty Shades of Gray mentions
to a minimum, and he or I go again, It's
like I can't stop talking about E. L. James and
(01:05):
fifty Shades of Gray. Yeah, I I've learned a lot
about fifty Shades of Gray in the last hours. Yeah,
me too. But you know what we should talk about
Before we briefly mentioned where fifty Shades came from and
like what it is and all that stuff. Let's talk
about the classics of erotica, because erotic fiction started long
(01:30):
before we had kindles to hide what we're reading. Yes,
erotic fiction came about long, long, long before kindles came
along to hide our naughty reading. And let's go way
way back to like d with it's the Tiricon, or
(01:52):
you've got the Comma Sutra, or that the Cameron. Yeah,
these are all tales of love and sexy times from
a long, long time ago. Yeah, and also kind of
instructions on, like with the Kamasutra, on how to be
a good lover and and pleasure your lover and lover exactly.
(02:13):
And it actually does give very specific instructions about the
accent you are to use when you do these things. Um.
But one book that's a little bit more modern, but
not not very modern, actually is Fanny Hill Memoirs of
a Woman of Pleasure that's mentioned on a lot of
top erotica book lists. It's by John Cleveland. It came
out in seventeen forty eight, and it's about a naive
(02:34):
country girl who comes to the big city and becomes
a prostitute and she loves it. She just loves being
a prostitute. Well, how how lucky to find your calling. Indeed,
there's also a Lean and valcour or the philosophical novel
by the Marquis Assad. Yeah you can get I mean
talking about fifty shades are great and almost spicy there.
(02:55):
And then there's the classic nineteen book that we mentioned
in the last episode because people didn't really get it
into their hands until the nineteen sixties because of censorship laws,
and it's D. H. Lawrence's Lady Chatterley's Lover, Lady Chatterley's
Lover Cha chater Um. Christopher Heart in two thousand two
(03:17):
for The Guardian came up with some more suggestions. He
actually recommends the Bible. Yeah, Song of Solomon. I saw that,
and I have read Song of Solomon. I was quite
the little Biblical scholar in my youth, and yeah, there
I do remember a couple of times, you know, as
a child, being like, I'm gonna flip the Song of Solomon,
(03:41):
look at out Psalms. I'm going past you. I'm getting
to the good stuff, and being like, what does this mean? Interesting, Well,
there's a there's another love handbook, Handbook of Seduction by
Avid It's the rs Amatoria Uh, it actually lead to
Avid's exile from Rome, so not everybody. I would think
that Rome was on Lucy Goosey, but apparently not. Uh.
(04:04):
Avid was too hot, too hot for Rome, and you
know it also would have been too hot for Rome.
Is story of Oh, and Story of Oh comes up
a lot in these conversations about Fifty Shades of Gray,
because um, it is be d s M themed erotic novel,
(04:24):
and my goodness it is. Uh. While Fifty Shades of
Gray is often referred to as erotica light, there is
nothing light at all about story about right exactly, and
that's all I'll say about. Well, there's also nothing light
about Flowers in the Attic by Virginia Andrews, which features
(04:44):
It's a series. It is a series, and it features
consensual in stuff. Yeah. I hadn't heard of Flowers in
the Attic before, but apparently, Yeah, these kids get locked
into an attic by their crazy mom and you know, uh, okay,
you know there are many different different themes of I
(05:08):
don't know what to say. No, that's miss she's twitter painted.
Well no, not like that. No, I mean you're all like, wow, yes,
it's uncomfortable. I'm not swooning. Okay, absolutely not listening. I'm
a witness, um. And we we have to mention Sappho,
the poetry of and apparently there's some book called Lace
(05:31):
by Shirley Conran that is that is very titilating, and
that was recommended by Lucy Mangan also at The Guardian. Yeah,
and so the point of calling out all these titles
is to say that the history of erotic fiction goes
way way way back, but all of a sudden, it's
now okay for women in particular to be reading erotic
(05:52):
fiction because often, as we talked about in the Romance
Novel podcast, women are the number one consumers of erotic fiction. Um.
And it's more marketed toward women, which is something that
Yale James has well learned because she is the author
and former British TV exec who wrote Fifty Shades of Gray,
which started out as online fan fiction Twilight fan fick
(06:17):
that she was writing and essentially she just made the
guy not a vampire and changed the names and now
she has like the number one selling book in the
United States and in the UK, and it took off
because of it was printed by a small independent press
in Australia, but it really took off because of digital
(06:37):
sales and e readers because, um, you know, you don't
have to carry around around embarrassing book. Yeah, I've heard
it's terribly written, though. Well it's kind of like the
who the whole argument about things like Twilight, where people
weren't huge fans of that, and some people have called
that um erotica as well. Um, but it's funny though
(07:00):
that you're talking about not having to carry the book around.
I was actually talking about Fifty Shades of Gray and
anticipation of this episode recently with a couple of girlfriends
at the pool, and um, we were going on and
on and on about it, and then I looked across
and noticed that there was a girl reading a hard
(07:21):
copy of it, and she yeah, she was hanging out
of the pool reading her Fifty Shades of Gray. Looked
a little uncomfortable when she noticed who were talking about
it and put it away. Really yeah, yeah, well, I
mean it's if it's poor writing, maybe you should be embarrassed.
Still taboo. Yeah, there was an article about it in
the New York Times that quoted a woman who requested
anonymity because she was scared that her employers would find
(07:44):
out that she was reading erotica. Well, I mean, and
we'll get into this a little bit more later, but
it is interesting that all of a sudden, erotica or
erotica light as the case maybe, has taken off with
women as opposed to pornography, because there is that taboo
that pornography is dirty and it's for men, and erotica
is more cerebral and it's for women. I feel like
(08:07):
there's cultural reasons behind why that is, and there's also
mental biological reasons for why that is why women are
more drawn to things like erotica. And I also think
it's worth considering the fact that the only reason why
we're having this conversation is because you know, e readers
and that discreet way of reading and consuming erotica has
(08:28):
made it a lot more popular. But yet it's still
something that women might be a little embarrassed about. There's
still that taboo. Yeah, absolutely, well, I mean, I wouldn't
want to be on the train reading a romance novel?
Well also just seems like, yeah, I mean, wouldn't you
want to be alone to like? Reading it in a
public place also seems awkward? But not only that, but
(08:49):
I mean, there have been all these articles coming out
about this book and how popular it is and the
fact that you know, it's dominated by women readers, And
there have been articles and headlines I've seen that have
been like, you know, pop ularity of Fifty Shades of
Gray proves that women are knit with stuff like that.
So not only are you embarrassed to be reading erotica
something that's real, real, sexy, but now you're also embarrassed
(09:10):
because men think you're stupid for reading it, whereas the
same kind of critique might not be leveled at pornography.
And that was that was a question that I had
with this episode, was what is the difference between erotica
and pornography, aside from how it's often portrayed an agendered
(09:31):
kind of way, where erotica is for women and poorness
for guys. I like, can let you did the up
speak there? Yeah? Well? Um. Clinical psychologist Leond Seltzer points
out that a lot of the difference is attitudes, attitudes
about sex and sexuality, and he sort of puts eroticism
in line with the fine arts that it's about capturing
(09:53):
beauty and the human anatomy and expressing appreciation for the
human figure. It's not necessarily to arouse the viewer or
turn the viewer on, although the viewer might get turned
on by looking at this is you know, more art obviously,
but whereas pornography is more in your face. It's the
money making venture. It's there just to turn you on, quickly,
get the job done. It's it appeals less to your
(10:16):
aesthetic tastes, right, and it's often more um scene, it's
more exploitative. You're exploiting human sexuality UM and cheapening physical
intimacy for generally for self pleasure. UM. And Violet Blue,
who is a San Francisco Chronicle sex columnists and author
of The Smart Girl's Guide to Porn, told Oprah, Yeah,
(10:40):
even Oprah, I've been talking about porn and erotica. It's everywhere. Um.
She differentiates it by saying that porn is something that
is a graphic sexual image that conjures up an animalistic
reaction in you. You like it or you don't. Erotica
is also graphic sexual imagery, but it has several extra
components that resonate with the viewer, being artistic passion in
(11:00):
it something that emotionally engages you. So that's why there's
generally the story behind it and you know, a relationship
and um, you know, elements beyond just uh physical contact. Yeah, well,
I mean it's it's less tawdry, less less like whispering
about it. I mean, it seems almost more justified to
(11:22):
enjoy because there is an appreciation of physical intimacy, of
a relationship, of the of the human form. There's not
just that wham bam dirty connotation to it. And one
of the misconceptions too, that has come up with all
of the fifty Shades buzz is that somehow women consuming
(11:43):
erotica and being interested in subversive themes like b D
s M. You know, it revolves around the subdom relationship
between an older, wealthy man and a younger female student
I believe, a college student. Um, and it's nothing it's
still nothing new. As Joyce Lamb points out at USA Today,
(12:03):
and she was she's very upset with how it's been
portrayed as like all of a sudden, whoa women, women
want to get sexy. Yeah, well, there's also the whole aspect,
Like you mentioned, b D s M, it's not new.
That whole idea is not new. To erotica writers, and
so a lot of people who maybe are not familiar
with that have taken issue with Fifty Shades of Grace,
(12:25):
saying you know it, They take issue with violence in
the book and the treatment of women, And well, I
haven't read it, so I can't I can't argue either way.
What I can say that if it if it is
a B D. S M book or erotical light. I mean,
isn't that kind of if you're a submissive person in
a submissive dominant relationship, isn't that par for the course? Yeah,
(12:46):
I mean I think it's it's also being able to
distinguish between fantasy and reality. We call we refer to
sexual fantasies as fantasies because it's more imaginative. It's not
a thing of of what you would live your day
to day life. Right. Just because you like to look
at something, listen to something, watch something, read something, it
(13:07):
doesn't mean you want to do it or want to
do it to someone. Yeah. And then I mean, and
then you can keep arguing over and over and over
again about saying, well what about this, For instance, with
flowers in the Attic, consensual incests, I mean, that is
I don't. I wow, you know that's out there, and
then you can say, well, if you know, is that
okay if it's just in the fantasy realm, so I
(13:28):
can I can understand why people might have some qualms
about it, but uh, I still think that, you know,
on the other side of the coin is repression. I
don't know. Maybe it's maybe it's okay to explore and
erotica is a safe outlet to to do that. Yeah. Um.
(13:48):
Lamb interviewed Raylene Goerlinski, who's a an erotica publisher, and
she says that, you know, even though erotica is not
a sorry, fifty Shades of Gray is not true heavy
serious erotica, maybe this is a way to get women
to explore that subset of fiction. Well yeah, and there
have also been um anecdotes. Uh, you know, this is
(14:09):
referred to often as mommy porn, which is I think
the worst thing to come out of this whole fifty
shades thing. It's um but ABC News, calling it the
mommy porn Revolution, has interviewed women saying that it has
rejuvenated their romantic lives and that they're going out and
buying the sex toys described in the book, so the
(14:32):
husbands are happy to write and just to put a
little bit of science behind this, you know, we we
kind of mentioned that that women tend to prefer a
little more relationship, a little more than just uh, pornographic
content contact. I always get so tongue tied when we
start talking about s e x um. But neuroscientists oggi
(14:55):
Ogus and Sagadam wrote a billion wicked thoughts and they
analyzed billions of web searches, websites, porn videos, online, erotica,
personal ads to figure out a little bit more about
sexual desire in modern context. And they said, far and
away women go for erotica, whereas men go for porn.
(15:18):
As we've said, um and the most popular site for
women's sex site for women. I found this very interesting
fan fiction dot net. Yeah, amateur stories written mostly about
Twilight characters. Yeah, hello, fifty shades of Gray. There we
go again. We love there's something about about those stories. Yeah,
(15:39):
And they did find that women, you know, like character
driven stories of romance and sexuality that feature characteristics that
men aren't necessarily looking for. Intimacy, closeness, relationships, love all
that stuff. Because they found that you know, women need
more cues to become around than men do, and so
they look for more stimuli basically in the media that
(15:59):
they are searching for online. And that's not to say
that it is that it is harder, that female sexuality
is not as robust as male sexuality. It's just different.
The brain wiring is just a little bit different. Um. Now,
we also need to touch on feminism because this whole
the fact that there are gendered arguments about erotica versus
(16:23):
pornography and artistic value and all of that. Um not
so surprising that second wave feminists certainly had some things
to say about erotica, and generally it was positive. For instance,
Gloria Steinum herself in nineteen seventy eight wrote in Miss magazine,
erotica is rooted in arrows or passionate love, and thus
(16:44):
the idea of positive choice, free will, the yearning for
a particular persons versus pornography where the subject is not
love at all but domination and violence against women. Yeah,
they're they're definitely these lines drawn that erotica is more
women positive, sex positive, positive for everybody, whereas pornography is
(17:04):
just degrading and it's just kind of bad for everybody,
bad for relationships, bad for sex. Um. Audrey Lore, the
poet in nine even went so far as to say
that pornography and eroticism are too diametrically opposed uses of
the sexual Yeah. Um. And along those lines, A Nice
nin famous erotica writer in nineteen seventy seven, in her
(17:28):
preface to Delta of Venus said, uh that women are
more aptifuse sex with emotion, with love, and to single
out one man rather than to be promiscuous. And that
kind of goes along the lines of you know, if
we are plotting uh, sex on the spectrum of erotic
at one end, pornography at the other end. I mean
(17:51):
not to say that they don't meet at some point,
but it does. I think it is um. I think
it's interesting that women are are more titilated, it seems
by erotica. Not to say, and this is also not
to say that women don't watch porn or consume pornography absolutely,
but this is coming from the Rutledge International Encyclopedia of Women.
And it brings up because as I was reading all
(18:12):
these quotes, these feminist ways of thinking about erotica and pornography,
I was thinking, well, what about the people who just
like pornography, yeah, or aren't as drawn to erotica maybe
as they are to pornography. And they did point out
that the criticism of pornography in favor of erotica does
leave little room for other tastes and preferences, and it
(18:32):
could actually end up reinforcing stereotypes of women as being like,
I'm going to just nurture you until you can't stand
it anymore. I need relationship always, Yeah, and yeah, I
mean and ever. Saying that erotica or pornography one is
is better than the other for women to consume in
that is the way that they should, uh, you know,
(18:53):
stoke their sexual desires is going to be off base
at the end of the day anyway, because it's directing.
It's a direct to about how to use your body
and your mind. Um. And there is also a certain
class implication that can be associated with the erotica versus
pornography debate, because erotica, like we've said, is often linked
(19:16):
to artistic status, whereas porn is delegitimized as just mass culture. Yeah. Well,
Susan santalk In argued that some works deemed pornographic actually
do qualify as serious literature because of their ability to
probe human consciousness. And I think that's an interesting tie
into what we talked about in the last Summer Reading
(19:37):
episode about what makes up obscenity. If it has a
redeeming quality to it, if if there is if the
meat of the story is you know, for a purpose,
if it educates, if it uplifts the human spirit, then
it's not counted as obscenity. So if a book, if
there's redeeming value to it, you know, some people might
count as pornography, others might count as literature. Yeah, And
(19:58):
I can't remember which book in particular she called out
Um as an example of it being elevated to artistic status,
and it might have been the story of I think
it was. Which is I mean, especially coming from a
feminist perspective, because the the B D. S M themes
are so intense in the book, and the character, the
(20:19):
female character essentially is just I mean, she's a slave
to this man and it doesn't seem very uplifting. But um.
But again going back to the what was it the
Miller test where you have to take the entire body
of work and not just bits and pieces where your
eyebrow might be raised. Yeah. Well, while all of these women,
(20:42):
Gloria Steinham and Anna nin Are are talking about all
these things, this feminist perspective of erotica and pornography, there's
a lot going on in society. And Carol Thurston in
her book The Romance Revolution said that during the nineteen seventies,
you know, more and more women are questioning and protesting
sex related inequities and injustices. They're also avidly consuming erotic
(21:02):
historical romance novels, and many of the heroines of these books,
uh during this time. They'reritten during this time articulated a
resistance to marriage. It's also during this time they point
out that rape cases are on the rise. At the
same time, you have this all of these books where
heroines are fighting for control over their own bodies, for
(21:23):
equal justice. So it's very interesting that some of these
romance novels that could be perceived as erotica are sort
of reflecting societal issues. Yeah, and it's also in the
late seventies and the early eighties that you do see
the publication of more mainstream and overtly um erotic books
(21:43):
like Erica John's Fear of Flying Nancy Friday's My Secret
Garden both published, and well that's nine. So in the
early seventies, um, and then seventies seven we have the
Height Report and the Fantasy File. Um. So so there's that,
you know, things loosening of a bit. It was also
the seventies, but lots of people had mustaches then. But
(22:06):
it's just funny that, yeah, all of this, I mean
that's going on thirty years ago, forty years ago, and
you know, now the headlines are just it just seems
so recycled of saying like, oh, we're reading a naughty book. Well,
maybe it's the sheer popularity of it. The fact that
Fifty Shades of Gray knocked Hunger Games off the top
of the list for New York Times Bestseller. I mean,
(22:27):
how many kind of risque books does that happen with?
So it's just I guess it's it's the unique aspect
of it. Yeah, and well, I mean I haven't read
fifty Shades either, and I've heard similar complaints about its quality.
But I think it's I mean, I think it's a
maybe a good thing. You know, why not have more
(22:47):
women getting more comfortable about talking about sex. Absolutely, and
you know what, fan fiction not my cup of tea.
But if that's how you get in touch with your sexuality,
if that's how you learn what you like and don't
like and connect with other readers, That's another thing is
that a lot of women use those fan fiction sites
to connect with other women. Writers talk about erotica, talk
(23:11):
about sexuality and sexual issues. So I mean, if that's
how it gets you into learning about things, then yeah, sure,
fan fiction dot net so surprising. So with that, what
kind of feedback should we ask for from listeners? Do
they read erotica? Have they ever submitted erotica to a
(23:32):
fan fiction site? Please do not send your erotic fan
fiction to our We are not going to read it now.
Um yeah, what are your thoughts on it? Guys out
there too? Any any fellows who prefer erotic fiction? Um?
Any comments on pip shades a great? Let us know
your PG rated thoughts about ur PG rated episode? Maybe
(23:53):
PG thirteen, I don't know. Mom. Stuff at Discovery dot
com is where you can send your letters and end.
We've got a couple here. This one is from m
It's about our jock strap summer short. She said that
she found it very interesting because in the podcast you
did not mention the female jock strap. Now it is
(24:15):
uncommon to see them, but many females in the hockey
community are now wearing a jill short, a jewel short,
is a compression short or a mess short. This depends
on players preferences, but the compression short is a bit
more expensive. The short has a small pocket for the cup,
as well as velcro strips at the bottom of the
pant leg for holding up your hockey stocks. Well, I'm
not exactly sure when the jill first came around. I
(24:36):
do know that it was used or a variation was
used during the Olympics, where women's hockey first made its debut.
In the podcast, you also wanted to know if the
cup was put in the dishwasher. Hat is a big
no no A because it's gross and be because usually,
at least for women, the hard plastic is covered in
a foam or soft covering that can be put in
the washing machine. You can also put the whole short
(24:58):
in the washing machine or just the cup. Lastly, more
and more more women are not wearing the cup but
rather just the short. I find this interesting. While getting
hit there is not very common. I do believe it
is important to wear it. It would be like not
wearing elbow pads or leg pads, which are both very important.
Like the saying goes, it's better to be safe than sorry.
(25:19):
And I've got one here from Isabel about nudist beaches.
She's been to one. Yeah, she writes, you asked if
any listeners had ever visited a nude beach or stayed
at a nudist resort. Not only have I been to
my fair share of nude beaches, but my little family
and I spent a week at a nudist resort in
Spain a few years ago. We're frequent travelers to Europe,
(25:41):
and you know what they say when in Rome. While
it might not seem odd that someone had spent time
at a nudist resort, it is a little crazy that
we did. We're not hippies or consider ourselves part of
the nudist movement, or just a regular and religious little
family from Seattle who decided to try something new about
the germs. Is required that you always have a towel
(26:01):
with you, and everyone we saw had one. There will
be no bare butt germs. I'm like Caroline in terms
of being a germ of bogue. I won't touch the
remote in a hotel room, let alone put my naked
butt where someone else has been words, sister, So thank
you to Isabelle and everyone else too has written in
Mom's Stuff at Discovery dot Com is where you can
(26:24):
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Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera.
It's ready. Are you welcome to Stuff Mom Never told you?
From housetop works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.
I'm Caroline and I'm Kristen, and today is part two
(00:21):
of our Summer Reading series. Last time, we talked about
banned books, challenged books, books that people want out of libraries,
and why books that poisoned children's minds. Today, we're talking
about a more specific angle. We're talking about erotica. So
your moths for some of you out there. Yeah, well,
(00:43):
we're gonna keep this conversation PG, but we are going
to talk about erotic fiction because it is all the
rage this summer um. I promised in the first episode
that I was gonna keep fifty Shades of Gray mentions
to a minimum, and he or I go again, It's
like I can't stop talking about E. L. James and
(01:05):
fifty Shades of Gray. Yeah, I I've learned a lot
about fifty Shades of Gray in the last hours. Yeah,
me too. But you know what we should talk about
Before we briefly mentioned where fifty Shades came from and
like what it is and all that stuff. Let's talk
about the classics of erotica, because erotic fiction started long
(01:30):
before we had kindles to hide what we're reading. Yes,
erotic fiction came about long, long, long before kindles came
along to hide our naughty reading. And let's go way
way back to like d with it's the Tiricon, or
(01:52):
you've got the Comma Sutra, or that the Cameron. Yeah,
these are all tales of love and sexy times from
a long, long time ago. Yeah, and also kind of
instructions on, like with the Kamasutra, on how to be
a good lover and and pleasure your lover and lover exactly.
(02:13):
And it actually does give very specific instructions about the
accent you are to use when you do these things. Um.
But one book that's a little bit more modern, but
not not very modern, actually is Fanny Hill Memoirs of
a Woman of Pleasure that's mentioned on a lot of
top erotica book lists. It's by John Cleveland. It came
out in seventeen forty eight, and it's about a naive
(02:34):
country girl who comes to the big city and becomes
a prostitute and she loves it. She just loves being
a prostitute. Well, how how lucky to find your calling. Indeed,
there's also a Lean and valcour or the philosophical novel
by the Marquis Assad. Yeah you can get I mean
talking about fifty shades are great and almost spicy there.
(02:55):
And then there's the classic nineteen book that we mentioned
in the last episode because people didn't really get it
into their hands until the nineteen sixties because of censorship laws,
and it's D. H. Lawrence's Lady Chatterley's Lover, Lady Chatterley's
Lover Cha chater Um. Christopher Heart in two thousand two
(03:17):
for The Guardian came up with some more suggestions. He
actually recommends the Bible. Yeah, Song of Solomon. I saw that,
and I have read Song of Solomon. I was quite
the little Biblical scholar in my youth, and yeah, there
I do remember a couple of times, you know, as
a child, being like, I'm gonna flip the Song of Solomon,
(03:41):
look at out Psalms. I'm going past you. I'm getting
to the good stuff, and being like, what does this mean? Interesting, Well,
there's a there's another love handbook, Handbook of Seduction by
Avid It's the rs Amatoria Uh, it actually lead to
Avid's exile from Rome, so not everybody. I would think
that Rome was on Lucy Goosey, but apparently not. Uh.
(04:04):
Avid was too hot, too hot for Rome, and you
know it also would have been too hot for Rome.
Is story of Oh, and Story of Oh comes up
a lot in these conversations about Fifty Shades of Gray,
because um, it is be d s M themed erotic novel,
(04:24):
and my goodness it is. Uh. While Fifty Shades of
Gray is often referred to as erotica light, there is
nothing light at all about story about right exactly, and
that's all I'll say about. Well, there's also nothing light
about Flowers in the Attic by Virginia Andrews, which features
(04:44):
It's a series. It is a series, and it features
consensual in stuff. Yeah. I hadn't heard of Flowers in
the Attic before, but apparently, Yeah, these kids get locked
into an attic by their crazy mom and you know, uh, okay,
you know there are many different different themes of I
(05:08):
don't know what to say. No, that's miss she's twitter painted.
Well no, not like that. No, I mean you're all like, wow, yes,
it's uncomfortable. I'm not swooning. Okay, absolutely not listening. I'm
a witness, um. And we we have to mention Sappho,
the poetry of and apparently there's some book called Lace
(05:31):
by Shirley Conran that is that is very titilating, and
that was recommended by Lucy Mangan also at The Guardian. Yeah,
and so the point of calling out all these titles
is to say that the history of erotic fiction goes
way way way back, but all of a sudden, it's
now okay for women in particular to be reading erotic
(05:52):
fiction because often, as we talked about in the Romance
Novel podcast, women are the number one consumers of erotic fiction. Um.
And it's more marketed toward women, which is something that
Yale James has well learned because she is the author
and former British TV exec who wrote Fifty Shades of Gray,
which started out as online fan fiction Twilight fan fick
(06:17):
that she was writing and essentially she just made the
guy not a vampire and changed the names and now
she has like the number one selling book in the
United States and in the UK, and it took off
because of it was printed by a small independent press
in Australia, but it really took off because of digital
(06:37):
sales and e readers because, um, you know, you don't
have to carry around around embarrassing book. Yeah, I've heard
it's terribly written, though. Well it's kind of like the
who the whole argument about things like Twilight, where people
weren't huge fans of that, and some people have called
that um erotica as well. Um, but it's funny though
(07:00):
that you're talking about not having to carry the book around.
I was actually talking about Fifty Shades of Gray and
anticipation of this episode recently with a couple of girlfriends
at the pool, and um, we were going on and
on and on about it, and then I looked across
and noticed that there was a girl reading a hard
(07:21):
copy of it, and she yeah, she was hanging out
of the pool reading her Fifty Shades of Gray. Looked
a little uncomfortable when she noticed who were talking about
it and put it away. Really yeah, yeah, well, I
mean it's if it's poor writing, maybe you should be embarrassed.
Still taboo. Yeah, there was an article about it in
the New York Times that quoted a woman who requested
anonymity because she was scared that her employers would find
(07:44):
out that she was reading erotica. Well, I mean, and
we'll get into this a little bit more later, but
it is interesting that all of a sudden, erotica or
erotica light as the case maybe, has taken off with
women as opposed to pornography, because there is that taboo
that pornography is dirty and it's for men, and erotica
is more cerebral and it's for women. I feel like
(08:07):
there's cultural reasons behind why that is, and there's also
mental biological reasons for why that is why women are
more drawn to things like erotica. And I also think
it's worth considering the fact that the only reason why
we're having this conversation is because you know, e readers
and that discreet way of reading and consuming erotica has
(08:28):
made it a lot more popular. But yet it's still
something that women might be a little embarrassed about. There's
still that taboo. Yeah, absolutely, well, I mean, I wouldn't
want to be on the train reading a romance novel?
Well also just seems like, yeah, I mean, wouldn't you
want to be alone to like? Reading it in a
public place also seems awkward? But not only that, but
(08:49):
I mean, there have been all these articles coming out
about this book and how popular it is and the
fact that you know, it's dominated by women readers, And
there have been articles and headlines I've seen that have
been like, you know, pop ularity of Fifty Shades of
Gray proves that women are knit with stuff like that.
So not only are you embarrassed to be reading erotica
something that's real, real, sexy, but now you're also embarrassed
(09:10):
because men think you're stupid for reading it, whereas the
same kind of critique might not be leveled at pornography.
And that was that was a question that I had
with this episode, was what is the difference between erotica
and pornography, aside from how it's often portrayed an agendered
(09:31):
kind of way, where erotica is for women and poorness
for guys. I like, can let you did the up
speak there? Yeah? Well? Um. Clinical psychologist Leond Seltzer points
out that a lot of the difference is attitudes, attitudes
about sex and sexuality, and he sort of puts eroticism
in line with the fine arts that it's about capturing
(09:53):
beauty and the human anatomy and expressing appreciation for the
human figure. It's not necessarily to arouse the viewer or
turn the viewer on, although the viewer might get turned
on by looking at this is you know, more art obviously,
but whereas pornography is more in your face. It's the
money making venture. It's there just to turn you on, quickly,
get the job done. It's it appeals less to your
(10:16):
aesthetic tastes, right, and it's often more um scene, it's
more exploitative. You're exploiting human sexuality UM and cheapening physical
intimacy for generally for self pleasure. UM. And Violet Blue,
who is a San Francisco Chronicle sex columnists and author
of The Smart Girl's Guide to Porn, told Oprah, Yeah,
(10:40):
even Oprah, I've been talking about porn and erotica. It's everywhere. Um.
She differentiates it by saying that porn is something that
is a graphic sexual image that conjures up an animalistic
reaction in you. You like it or you don't. Erotica
is also graphic sexual imagery, but it has several extra
components that resonate with the viewer, being artistic passion in
(11:00):
it something that emotionally engages you. So that's why there's
generally the story behind it and you know, a relationship
and um, you know, elements beyond just uh physical contact. Yeah, well,
I mean it's it's less tawdry, less less like whispering
about it. I mean, it seems almost more justified to
(11:22):
enjoy because there is an appreciation of physical intimacy, of
a relationship, of the of the human form. There's not
just that wham bam dirty connotation to it. And one
of the misconceptions too, that has come up with all
of the fifty Shades buzz is that somehow women consuming
(11:43):
erotica and being interested in subversive themes like b D
s M. You know, it revolves around the subdom relationship
between an older, wealthy man and a younger female student
I believe, a college student. Um, and it's nothing it's
still nothing new. As Joyce Lamb points out at USA Today,
(12:03):
and she was she's very upset with how it's been
portrayed as like all of a sudden, whoa women, women
want to get sexy. Yeah, well, there's also the whole aspect,
Like you mentioned, b D s M, it's not new.
That whole idea is not new. To erotica writers, and
so a lot of people who maybe are not familiar
with that have taken issue with Fifty Shades of Grace,
(12:25):
saying you know it, They take issue with violence in
the book and the treatment of women, And well, I
haven't read it, so I can't I can't argue either way.
What I can say that if it if it is
a B D. S M book or erotical light. I mean,
isn't that kind of if you're a submissive person in
a submissive dominant relationship, isn't that par for the course? Yeah,
(12:46):
I mean I think it's it's also being able to
distinguish between fantasy and reality. We call we refer to
sexual fantasies as fantasies because it's more imaginative. It's not
a thing of of what you would live your day
to day life. Right. Just because you like to look
at something, listen to something, watch something, read something, it
(13:07):
doesn't mean you want to do it or want to
do it to someone. Yeah. And then I mean, and
then you can keep arguing over and over and over
again about saying, well what about this, For instance, with
flowers in the Attic, consensual incests, I mean, that is
I don't. I wow, you know that's out there, and
then you can say, well, if you know, is that
okay if it's just in the fantasy realm, so I
(13:28):
can I can understand why people might have some qualms
about it, but uh, I still think that, you know,
on the other side of the coin is repression. I
don't know. Maybe it's maybe it's okay to explore and
erotica is a safe outlet to to do that. Yeah. Um.
(13:48):
Lamb interviewed Raylene Goerlinski, who's a an erotica publisher, and
she says that, you know, even though erotica is not
a sorry, fifty Shades of Gray is not true heavy
serious erotica, maybe this is a way to get women
to explore that subset of fiction. Well yeah, and there
have also been um anecdotes. Uh, you know, this is
(14:09):
referred to often as mommy porn, which is I think
the worst thing to come out of this whole fifty
shades thing. It's um but ABC News, calling it the
mommy porn Revolution, has interviewed women saying that it has
rejuvenated their romantic lives and that they're going out and
buying the sex toys described in the book, so the
(14:32):
husbands are happy to write and just to put a
little bit of science behind this, you know, we we
kind of mentioned that that women tend to prefer a
little more relationship, a little more than just uh, pornographic
content contact. I always get so tongue tied when we
start talking about s e x um. But neuroscientists oggi
(14:55):
Ogus and Sagadam wrote a billion wicked thoughts and they
analyzed billions of web searches, websites, porn videos, online, erotica,
personal ads to figure out a little bit more about
sexual desire in modern context. And they said, far and
away women go for erotica, whereas men go for porn.
(15:18):
As we've said, um and the most popular site for
women's sex site for women. I found this very interesting
fan fiction dot net. Yeah, amateur stories written mostly about
Twilight characters. Yeah, hello, fifty shades of Gray. There we
go again. We love there's something about about those stories. Yeah,
(15:39):
And they did find that women, you know, like character
driven stories of romance and sexuality that feature characteristics that
men aren't necessarily looking for. Intimacy, closeness, relationships, love all
that stuff. Because they found that you know, women need
more cues to become around than men do, and so
they look for more stimuli basically in the media that
(15:59):
they are searching for online. And that's not to say
that it is that it is harder, that female sexuality
is not as robust as male sexuality. It's just different.
The brain wiring is just a little bit different. Um. Now,
we also need to touch on feminism because this whole
the fact that there are gendered arguments about erotica versus
(16:23):
pornography and artistic value and all of that. Um not
so surprising that second wave feminists certainly had some things
to say about erotica, and generally it was positive. For instance,
Gloria Steinum herself in nineteen seventy eight wrote in Miss magazine,
erotica is rooted in arrows or passionate love, and thus
(16:44):
the idea of positive choice, free will, the yearning for
a particular persons versus pornography where the subject is not
love at all but domination and violence against women. Yeah,
they're they're definitely these lines drawn that erotica is more
women positive, sex positive, positive for everybody, whereas pornography is
(17:04):
just degrading and it's just kind of bad for everybody,
bad for relationships, bad for sex. Um. Audrey Lore, the
poet in nine even went so far as to say
that pornography and eroticism are too diametrically opposed uses of
the sexual Yeah. Um. And along those lines, A Nice
nin famous erotica writer in nineteen seventy seven, in her
(17:28):
preface to Delta of Venus said, uh that women are
more aptifuse sex with emotion, with love, and to single
out one man rather than to be promiscuous. And that
kind of goes along the lines of you know, if
we are plotting uh, sex on the spectrum of erotic
at one end, pornography at the other end. I mean
(17:51):
not to say that they don't meet at some point,
but it does. I think it is um. I think
it's interesting that women are are more titilated, it seems
by erotica. Not to say, and this is also not
to say that women don't watch porn or consume pornography absolutely,
but this is coming from the Rutledge International Encyclopedia of Women.
And it brings up because as I was reading all
(18:12):
these quotes, these feminist ways of thinking about erotica and pornography,
I was thinking, well, what about the people who just
like pornography, yeah, or aren't as drawn to erotica maybe
as they are to pornography. And they did point out
that the criticism of pornography in favor of erotica does
leave little room for other tastes and preferences, and it
(18:32):
could actually end up reinforcing stereotypes of women as being like,
I'm going to just nurture you until you can't stand
it anymore. I need relationship always, Yeah, and yeah, I
mean and ever. Saying that erotica or pornography one is
is better than the other for women to consume in
that is the way that they should, uh, you know,
(18:53):
stoke their sexual desires is going to be off base
at the end of the day anyway, because it's directing.
It's a direct to about how to use your body
and your mind. Um. And there is also a certain
class implication that can be associated with the erotica versus
pornography debate, because erotica, like we've said, is often linked
(19:16):
to artistic status, whereas porn is delegitimized as just mass culture. Yeah. Well,
Susan santalk In argued that some works deemed pornographic actually
do qualify as serious literature because of their ability to
probe human consciousness. And I think that's an interesting tie
into what we talked about in the last Summer Reading
(19:37):
episode about what makes up obscenity. If it has a
redeeming quality to it, if if there is if the
meat of the story is you know, for a purpose,
if it educates, if it uplifts the human spirit, then
it's not counted as obscenity. So if a book, if
there's redeeming value to it, you know, some people might
count as pornography, others might count as literature. Yeah, And
(19:58):
I can't remember which book in particular she called out
Um as an example of it being elevated to artistic status,
and it might have been the story of I think
it was. Which is I mean, especially coming from a
feminist perspective, because the the B D. S M themes
are so intense in the book, and the character, the
(20:19):
female character essentially is just I mean, she's a slave
to this man and it doesn't seem very uplifting. But um.
But again going back to the what was it the
Miller test where you have to take the entire body
of work and not just bits and pieces where your
eyebrow might be raised. Yeah. Well, while all of these women,
(20:42):
Gloria Steinham and Anna nin Are are talking about all
these things, this feminist perspective of erotica and pornography, there's
a lot going on in society. And Carol Thurston in
her book The Romance Revolution said that during the nineteen seventies,
you know, more and more women are questioning and protesting
sex related inequities and injustices. They're also avidly consuming erotic
(21:02):
historical romance novels, and many of the heroines of these books,
uh during this time. They'reritten during this time articulated a
resistance to marriage. It's also during this time they point
out that rape cases are on the rise. At the
same time, you have this all of these books where
heroines are fighting for control over their own bodies, for
(21:23):
equal justice. So it's very interesting that some of these
romance novels that could be perceived as erotica are sort
of reflecting societal issues. Yeah, and it's also in the
late seventies and the early eighties that you do see
the publication of more mainstream and overtly um erotic books
(21:43):
like Erica John's Fear of Flying Nancy Friday's My Secret
Garden both published, and well that's nine. So in the
early seventies, um, and then seventies seven we have the
Height Report and the Fantasy File. Um. So so there's that,
you know, things loosening of a bit. It was also
the seventies, but lots of people had mustaches then. But
(22:06):
it's just funny that, yeah, all of this, I mean
that's going on thirty years ago, forty years ago, and
you know, now the headlines are just it just seems
so recycled of saying like, oh, we're reading a naughty book. Well,
maybe it's the sheer popularity of it. The fact that
Fifty Shades of Gray knocked Hunger Games off the top
of the list for New York Times Bestseller. I mean,
(22:27):
how many kind of risque books does that happen with?
So it's just I guess it's it's the unique aspect
of it. Yeah, and well, I mean I haven't read
fifty Shades either, and I've heard similar complaints about its quality.
But I think it's I mean, I think it's a
maybe a good thing. You know, why not have more
(22:47):
women getting more comfortable about talking about sex. Absolutely, and
you know what, fan fiction not my cup of tea.
But if that's how you get in touch with your sexuality,
if that's how you learn what you like and don't
like and connect with other readers, That's another thing is
that a lot of women use those fan fiction sites
to connect with other women. Writers talk about erotica, talk
(23:11):
about sexuality and sexual issues. So I mean, if that's
how it gets you into learning about things, then yeah, sure,
fan fiction dot net so surprising. So with that, what
kind of feedback should we ask for from listeners? Do
they read erotica? Have they ever submitted erotica to a
(23:32):
fan fiction site? Please do not send your erotic fan
fiction to our We are not going to read it now.
Um yeah, what are your thoughts on it? Guys out
there too? Any any fellows who prefer erotic fiction? Um?
Any comments on pip shades a great? Let us know
your PG rated thoughts about ur PG rated episode? Maybe
(23:53):
PG thirteen, I don't know. Mom. Stuff at Discovery dot
com is where you can send your letters and end.
We've got a couple here. This one is from m
It's about our jock strap summer short. She said that
she found it very interesting because in the podcast you
did not mention the female jock strap. Now it is
(24:15):
uncommon to see them, but many females in the hockey
community are now wearing a jill short, a jewel short,
is a compression short or a mess short. This depends
on players preferences, but the compression short is a bit
more expensive. The short has a small pocket for the cup,
as well as velcro strips at the bottom of the
pant leg for holding up your hockey stocks. Well, I'm
not exactly sure when the jill first came around. I
(24:36):
do know that it was used or a variation was
used during the Olympics, where women's hockey first made its debut.
In the podcast, you also wanted to know if the
cup was put in the dishwasher. Hat is a big
no no A because it's gross and be because usually,
at least for women, the hard plastic is covered in
a foam or soft covering that can be put in
the washing machine. You can also put the whole short
(24:58):
in the washing machine or just the cup. Lastly, more
and more more women are not wearing the cup but
rather just the short. I find this interesting. While getting
hit there is not very common. I do believe it
is important to wear it. It would be like not
wearing elbow pads or leg pads, which are both very important.
Like the saying goes, it's better to be safe than sorry.
(25:19):
And I've got one here from Isabel about nudist beaches.
She's been to one. Yeah, she writes, you asked if
any listeners had ever visited a nude beach or stayed
at a nudist resort. Not only have I been to
my fair share of nude beaches, but my little family
and I spent a week at a nudist resort in
Spain a few years ago. We're frequent travelers to Europe,
(25:41):
and you know what they say when in Rome. While
it might not seem odd that someone had spent time
at a nudist resort, it is a little crazy that
we did. We're not hippies or consider ourselves part of
the nudist movement, or just a regular and religious little
family from Seattle who decided to try something new about
the germs. Is required that you always have a towel
(26:01):
with you, and everyone we saw had one. There will
be no bare butt germs. I'm like Caroline in terms
of being a germ of bogue. I won't touch the
remote in a hotel room, let alone put my naked
butt where someone else has been words, sister, So thank
you to Isabelle and everyone else too has written in
Mom's Stuff at Discovery dot Com is where you can
(26:24):
send your emails. You can also find us on Facebook
and follow us on Twitter at Moms Stuff Podcast, and
you can check out what we're doing during the week
on our website. It's how Stuff Works dot com For
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how stuff works dot Com brought to you by the
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