May 31, 2019 • 49 mins
Adjoa Danso joins us to discuss asexuality.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey, this is Annie. Hey, I'm Samantha and welcome to Stephan.
I never told your production of I Hire Radio's House
AFT works. So we're kind of doing one of our
we we love an arc around here, like a mini series,
(00:27):
and we're doing one on sexuality. Yes, and lately y'all
know that I've been struggling to nail down my sexuality,
which is really fun. As a thirty year old woman,
I gotta say and specifically whether or not I'm a
sexual and it's it's funny because Peak behind the Curtains.
(00:48):
We recorded this interview that we're about to play for
you about a sexuality the same day we did an
interview about bondage and that goes hand in hand. Yeah. Yeah,
part of this art it is to talk about this.
We brought in Adua Danzo, who has written about her
experience of being an ace as it's often shortened to
(01:11):
in teen Vogue, and she also works on a podcast
called About South podcast that you should all totally check out.
So let's get right into it. So I am Adua
Dance So also known as Joa Dance. So. Um that's
a nickname with the storied history and um, I have
(01:32):
a background in journalistic writing, born and raised in Atlanta.
Previously worked at Creative Loathing, and I currently work at
car U s a not the nanny ng and home
care site, but the UH the inventor of the care
package that currently works to eradicate global poverty by empowering
women and girls. Um, I'm on the social media team there. Yeah. Um.
(01:56):
And a couple of months ago, we had a friend
of mine, son of Vashi, on to talk about Asian
American identity and afterwards I picked her brain of like
who should I talk to in Atlanta? And she recommended
you for um a couple of things actually, because she said,
you have very funny takes on pop culture, which I
(02:19):
am intrigued, which I have a lot of a vature.
I think you and I could banter really well. That
could be fue but I won't. I won't put that
there now, but I'm just saying that's a future episode. Yes,
pop culture banter always welcome. But also, um, a sexuality,
which is you You wrote a piece for teen Vogue
about your your experience. Yeah yeah, so, Um, I am
(02:43):
a sexual and that does not mean that I recreate
or procreate with myself. That would be a popular UM. Basically,
a sexuals exists outside the standard spectrum of sexuality and
sexual attraction. So we are all taught that, like, you
(03:06):
are sexually attracted to people, and like that's what you do. UM.
And I basically had a light bulb moment where I
was like, wait, but you guys experienced and what I
experienced are not the same thing at all, and it
sent me into a Google spiral. I think I was
like twenty three when I found out, so I was like, wait, no,
how did I miss this? UM? I actually had a
sexual friend when I was a teenager and it did
(03:27):
not click at all that UM, she and I had
more in common than other people that I was friends with.
And UM, Basically, there are a lot of people in
the world who will just look at another person and
know that they want to have sex with that person.
Maybe after a conversation they know, maybe they like see
(03:48):
them at the coffee shop every day and they know
that's not me. I don't feel comfortable saying that I've
ever had sexual attraction towards someone in the way that
the majority of people do. UM. So, like, even when
you like watch TV shows and stuff and you're like, man,
they started having sex like really fast, like Derek and
(04:11):
Meredith on Grey's Anatomy One night Stands. I was like,
I don't understand how you just like have sex with
somebody like you don't have like questions about them. First, Um,
I've that is not my experience. And um, while there
are a sexuals who do have things that line up
with the norm or varied experiences across the spectrum, the
(04:32):
gist is that there are what I call sexual people
and then there are people who don't experience it in
the same way. And I am under that umbrella. Um,
would you mind expounding more on that that lightbulb moment?
Trying to remember exactly what the moment was. Um. It
(04:56):
was kind of a series of conversations, but one in
partic killer was with one of my old roommates in college,
where we would just like be up at night talking
about like relationships and stuff like that. You know, like
when you're like an ambitious young black woman and they're like,
no people who match your vibe, You're just kind of like, oh,
it'll come later, right. And then I graduated and she
(05:20):
still lived in the dorm, and she sent me a
photo of the lgbt Q history month board and the
definition of a sexuality on that board and was like,
you might be a sexual l O L. And I
was like, con I know what a sexuality is, Like,
that's not me. And then I read the definitions and
I was like, oh, that is me, um, And so
I started googling, and like things just started clicking and
(05:43):
making sense. And the best analogy that I have for
like that moment is, uh the spoiler alert episode of
How I Met Your Mother when Ted's dating a woman
who ends up being like a huge talker and at
the end she's dating a deaf guy who doesn't notice
that she talks a whole lot. But throughout the episode,
each person in the group like realizes something about somebody
else in the group and it's like glass shattering place
(06:04):
above their head. And that's like what it felt like
from me. I was like, no, Like the world is crashing,
Like how how did I get this far in my
life and never have this kind of knowledge, especially because
I've my primary identity primary and quotation marks, um, I'm black.
You can like see it, like really clearly, So that's primary.
Um is being queer. Like I identified as bisexual for
(06:30):
several years. I still kind of do depending on the day.
And um, I was just kind of like shocked that
like somebody is like in tune and like knowledgeable and
conscious and like paying attention as I am did not
know this thing. Yeah, and I kind of alluded to
it in our communications, But as I have done this podcast,
(06:53):
I've had a similar realization. It's it's so fun to
be researching something, um, And I say on not sarcastically,
but also I don't know if that's the best word,
but to be researching something and to be like, huh oh,
maybe that describes me. Um. And so listeners have had
(07:16):
the fun time of being with me on this journey
of is an a sexual? I mean, and let's just
have that conversation, is why do you feel like this
is something that or a does it feel like? It
kind of was a relief to understand yourself a little
more in that way. Yeah, it definitely flipped my world
upside down, but it was a huge relief. Um. Before
(07:39):
I learned what asexuality is and that it fit for me,
I was like really concerned. I was like, is there
something wrong with me? And I like represhing some childhood
sexual trauma because they're like a reason for why I
haven't um been on the same like wavelength that's my
peers in terms of relationships and stuff like that. UM.
(08:01):
And then finding out I was a sexual, I was like,
oh cool, there's my answer. UM. But at the same time,
there is the part that's like still kind of unknown.
There are a lot of people who don't believe in
a sexuality or don't think that they would even be
willing to be in a relationship with an a sexual person,
(08:21):
And uh, those are the kinds of things where like,
don't read the comments is like really real, because you
know what you're going to get in the comments there,
Like after like three or four different comments sections, you're like, Okay,
there's clearly, uh, like line of thought that's connecting all
of these things, and it does not serve me, So
I should probably just not look at it. Um. But
(08:41):
I speak in metaphors, So I have a metaphor for this,
of course, and I've thought about it a lot. Like
the metaphor that I'm giving here is not the same
one that's in my Team Vogue piece and is not
the same one that was in the first draft, but
just bear with me. So I'm a huge Top Chef
fan and Richard Blaze of Top Chef. He opened Flip
Burger in Atlanta and had wanted to go for years
(09:04):
and watching the show, everybody always like did like their tartars,
like steak tartar, and he had a steak tartar burger
on the menu, and I'm like, cool, I'm going to
go for my birthday. I want the steak tartar burger.
And I get there and I take a bite and
it makes me nauseated immediately, and I was like, no,
I can't enjoy this food that I've always wanted to enjoy.
That is my worst case scenario basically. So it's yet
(09:27):
to be determined, but um, yeah, I can't imagine. Like
I consider myself very like sex positive person. I'm like, uh,
pro like female orgasm, pro like sex toys, whatever you need,
very anti like, uh, what is it? They say? Uh,
parts not hearts. I feel like that's I don't subscribe
(09:49):
to parts over hearts. Um, and so I feel like
I need someone to explain it to me. What is this?
I was so I put like that was going to
be like yeah, but I'm like not hard, I've not
heard this, so It's basically a way of saying, uh,
don't be transphobic in your selection of a partner. Like,
(10:10):
just because you meet a woman who has a penis
or a man who has a vagina does not mean that,
like you guys cannot still find sexual satisfaction enjoyment with one. Okay,
that makes more sense. I'm not gonna I have never
heard that expression. Keep going. Um So yeah, I like,
I feel like this very sex positive person. I tell people, like,
(10:31):
in my mind I could be Samantha from Sex in
the City, but in reality I'm like the opposite. Um.
And so I hope that like there will be a
world in which people like understand what a sexuality is
and that like there is uh as much as no
means no, which it does, there is flexibility among a
(10:54):
sexual people. So there are a sexuals who form a
sexual attraction once they've formed a romantic attraction or once
they've formed an emotional attraction. There's some people who will
be like a sexual for years and then um just aren't.
There are a sexual people who are sex averse and
(11:14):
some who are like I don't really get the deal
with sex, but I do it anyway. Um. Actually, Lane
Kim from Gilmore Girls is uh, potentially an ACE icon.
It is not, it's not canon, I don't think, but um,
she famously like waits to have sex because she's been
like brought up in strong Christian beliefs and it's like
(11:36):
basically terrified of what happened if her mom caught her
having sex. And so she gets married and has sex
on the honeymoon and she comes back and she's like, yeah,
I don't know what you guys were talking about, Like
that was kind of like really awful, Like you guys
were clearly this was all a conspiracy to keep me
from having sex. Everybody like talking about how great it was. Um,
And I don't know that there are many other ACE
(11:59):
icons like that. But the caveat with Lane is that, um,
you're not necessarily sex a verse if you are a sexual.
And the other split there that was like mind blowing
for me is that there are people who are romantically
attracted and people who are sexually attracted. And I was
kind of like, oh, we're taught that, like we're basically
(12:21):
socialized that all girls are romantically attracted to every person
they have sex with, and that's why I like you
shouldn't have sex because he'll break your heart and leave you.
But everyone experiences romantic attraction and sexual attraction or exists
on that spectrum. There are people who don't experience romantic
attraction or sexual attraction. There's some who have one but
(12:41):
not the other. UM. I like to think of the
people who find romantic long term relationships with the opposite
sex even though they are homosexual or well, I guess
that's the only other option really. Um. But like those
old episodes of where she's like, how could you be
with this woman for forty five years if you're gay?
(13:04):
And it's like, well, maybe he was romantically attracted to her,
or even just platonically attracted to her and not actually
attracted to her, or vice versa, or none of the above.
Like this is really just turned everything upside down because
I'm like everything applies everywhere and nothing means everything. One
(13:25):
thing I loved about your your piece and teen Vogue is, UM,
you're talking about the questions you get and then kind
of for yourself still working through what Like someone would
ask you something and then you have to kind of
think about it, like, oh, yeah, what does that mean? UM?
Can you talk more about what your experience has been
(13:46):
around that, and maybe some questions you get frequently and
misconceptions things like that. Yeah, the number one misconception I
would say is that a sexuals are sex averse and
just like not interested in sex in any capacity, which
(14:06):
like I'm a picture of like it not being true,
like worst case scenarios that like in five years, I'm like,
oh no, that a sexuality thing was totally just like
a blip, like it didn't even happen. Um, But now
I feel very strongly that, um, what is true today
may not be true in ten years, and that I
can still identify as a sexual the whole time. But um,
(14:27):
people do often ask uh, like just basically like how
does that work? Or like why is it like that?
It's almost like I'm a little bit of a science
experiment to other people and to myself, And I really
only learned about myself through talking to other people because
like everything for me is normal until I say it
out loud. Um. One thing that I didn't mention in
(14:48):
the piece was sexual fantasies and how like like wait,
that's like a thing that everybody does, Yeah, but um,
mine aren't like everybody else's, like for me, it's very
weird and uncomfortable to fantasize about like a real person
I've met. And no, I'm like, wait, isn't that like
a violation of like their privacy and comfort? Like I
don't know, I feel like I need like consent to
(15:10):
fantasize the value and then also, um, fantasizing about somebody
then like seeing them and looking at them in the
face the next day, Like isn't that weird? Like somebody's
gonna have to Uh, your listeners should like let me
know and like, yes, please share all of your sexual
faces blood the endbox. Um. I think other people kind
(15:31):
of want to know, like how does a sexuality fit
with the rest of the queer alphabet, Like can you
be a sexual and gay and a sexual and strain
and a sexual and like attracted to different genders? And
the answers yes, Um, they exist in parallel with each other.
So like how somebody you can be a sexual and
(15:55):
trans and homosexual all at the same time. Um, they're no.
I mean I've I really want to like talk to
like a straight a sexual guy because I have no
idea like what that experience would be like, And I
just wonder how like they are socialized versus me. That
would be an interesting because I know there's many times
where I've had conversations with people about um, heterosexual men
(16:20):
and they're not sexual, and you start questioning, well, they're
just gay, Like the automatic assumption is they're gay, UM,
And there's a couple of moments I'm like, I think
they're actually a sexual. I think there may be a
whole different concept to this UM. And you're right. I
don't know if I've known many or been any instances
what I've heard heterosexual man say I'm a sexual. The
only ones that, like, the one that comes to the
(16:42):
mind immediately is Jim Parson's character on Big Bang Theory.
But he's like, oh, he's a sexual because he's like
on the autoism spectrum and like super intelligent, like that's
what an ACE guy looks like. And it's like, no, uh,
I am not particularly like gifted in the maths and
sign answers, and I find myself to be like, uh,
(17:04):
I'm better in social situations in Sheldon is UM, but
I like, I'm still a sexual. Like it's not like
it's um a symptom of something or like a sign
of like a larger mental issue. It just kind of
is a sexuality has um the research of it has
(17:25):
roots and like female sexual dysfunction. Um, there's this fantastic
and infuriating documentary called orgasm Ink that I watched not
long after I realised it was a sexual I just
kept making my room. May pose it like weight, but
all these things are wrong, Like don't they know that
there are other ways to answer these questions and solve
these problems. Um. And the doctor I spoke to for
(17:47):
my teen folk piece, Lori Bratto, like she said that
like that's where it came from, was just like not
knowing how to really place people's different sexual preferences and
non preferences, and so it was like, let's just study
and see if there's something wrong with them. And basically
it was like maybe these people just aren't experiencing things
the way that we're expecting them to. Yeah, are you okay? An?
(18:12):
So yeah, that's the question. So a sexuality began was
an eye with an idea like that's you're dysfunctional. So
that for your a sexual if you can't have a
normal reaction to sex, meaning you're not actually um pleasured
and or h, where's the word when you're aroused, you're
not actually aroused, so that it meant for your a
sexual there's for there's something that's like not functional about you.
(18:32):
Is that the context it was originated? Yeah? Yeah, Um,
And I was researching earlier today kind of some common
misconceptions because um, it's estimated that a sexual people or
you know aces as they sometimes call themselves, as one
(18:53):
percent of a population. Um. And it's also sometimes called
the invisible orientation. And um, some of the misconceptions I
found one, Um, it's not like being in a petri
dish or how god Zilla procreates Uh yeah, because Godzilla
(19:14):
procreates a sexually. Another common misconception is it's not an
abstinate spledge. Um, which I made this mistake in college
because I don't know where I was, but they were
doing this thing like how many people are abstinate? And
(19:35):
I just stood up in a panic. Like me. Later,
I was like, oh no, no, not me, this is
my choice. I just don't want sex. It's different than
like making an abstinence pledge. I'm sorry, keep going. Uh.
Not a synonym for celibacy, not a disorder, um, not
(19:58):
a fear of sex or relationship ups. You can date,
fall love, get married, have kids, masturbate, fantasize, orgasm, all
those things. It's not caused by a chemical or hormonal imbalance. Um.
It's not a choice. It's an orientation. Um. And then,
as some listeners have written in about this, since I
mentioned that, I was, you know, wrestling with is this
(20:20):
me the whole idea of corrective rape? Just no, it
doesn't work. Correct is bad. Oh, it's like you you
would like sex if you had it, even if you
don't want to. Oh. So like when guys are like,
I'm going to make you straight from being a lesbian
by rad you Okay, Okay, that's boring and disgusting in itself.
Let's just go ahead with that out there. And you
(20:41):
are the worst you think that in the statement yes, yes,
it's just um, I mean, are these are these things
that you have encountered? Are um, that you had to
think about when you were sort of coming to terms
with this? This is what I'm a sexual, less in
(21:03):
coming to terms with it and more in talking to
other people, because like I was in my mid twenties
or early twenties, I guess, um when I found out.
So it was like I kind of already knew myself
in a lot of ways. I knew that I experienced
sexual desire. I knew that like I wasn't celibate or abstinate,
like oh no, sex, keep that away from me. It
(21:25):
was more just like a thing that hadn't presented itself
as an opportunity and um, but I also knew I
wasn't like seeking sex either. I used to think that
it was like one of those like light bulb moments
that would be like, oh, I like hit twenty five,
or like when I graduate and I'm not like bogged
down by school and like college students around me, then
maybe the light bulb will turn on and I'll be
(21:47):
ready to go. And then I found this out and
I was like, Okay, well, I guess it's just not
in me too for that to happen, although you know,
never know, could still happen. But in like with other people, Yeah,
I feel like I'm educating people every time I bring
it up. And it was kind of funny when uh,
you invited me here, I was like, wait, but I
(22:08):
already wrote about it. Why do people still have questions?
And everybody just like googling and finding my words and
then like calling it a day. But no, people definitely
do not know. Uh, all of these misconceptions are not
things that are real phrase people, Yeah, so have you
had any of these conversations with the head of a
sexual man, like, is that ever been a thing where
(22:29):
they question and then it becomes a whole conversation. No. Um,
but that's mostly because I don't really like find myself
around heterosexual men A whole lot's fair. Um, with like
friends and stuff, people will like have their questions and
I'm usually it's like the most open part of me.
I'm like, oh my god, you guys, Like I just
(22:50):
learned this cool thing. I need to like ask you
about it so that I can understand it better. And
so for probably like a year and a half there,
like everybody I met, I was like in producing myself
and trying not to be like and I'm a sexual
and I have questions, let's talk about how you feel
about sex. But it does influence the way I like
look at the world where I like, you know, like
(23:11):
when there's Derek and Meredith on Gray's Anatomy having sex
again and I'm like, you, guys, but like he's married,
and like I don't understand, like what do you see
in each other? Or uh, this thing blew my mind,
Like people stay in relationships when the partnership sucks and
when the sex sucks. I'm like, what are you doing? Leave?
Like I cannot imagine, Like you are a sex having
(23:31):
person and you are choosing to like stay with the
bad sex. Like what I want that term sex having
person to be coining for you? That's a fantastic A
little yeah, I don't want that to be the statement
can put that in a spectrum. We have some more
(23:53):
to discuss with you listeners, but first we're gonna pause
for a quick break for a word from responsors, and
we're back. Thank you. Sponsored Yeah. I mentioned recently on
(24:15):
another podcast that for me, when I was growing up,
all my friends started to be attracted to people and
talking about how much they wanted sex, and I would
just be like, uh huh yeah, and trying to fit in.
It just never happened. It never happened. Like for you,
(24:35):
it's been the last couple of years that you've been
able because you've tried to have relationships. How to force
that level of like relationships means intimacy, intimacies For me,
design you as a sexual being and I'm like, and
you're like, I don't. I don't. Yeah, that that's been
a real because we never see representation of a sexuality
like I just assumed, um, And I've always identified as
(24:58):
bisexual as well. But I is to south, like eventually
I would meet the person and I would want to
have sex with that person. Yeah, and it just never happened.
And I thought, well, I've honestly, I've gone through a
lot of guilt because I cared about these people and
I thought, with enough time, I probably will want to
(25:21):
have sex with you. And it just never happened. And
in our society, I think because we don't talk about
this because we don't see it. Um, there is this,
especially for women, obligation that you are going to give
give sex like your's your duty exactly. And I felt
(25:42):
horrible about it because I did any of them make
you feel bad? No? Um, well some people did, but
they I dumped him, but like exactly right. But I
did have, um, a couple of relationships that were longer term,
and they never pressured me, but I still could sense it,
you know what I mean, Like, and I I felt
(26:04):
bad because I knew they wanted it, and and I
didn't know myself little enough to have been able to
communicate that too, you know what I mean. Like, so, yeah,
that is the other question. How do you communicate that
with people today that you meet or maybe are interested
in platonically and or just emotionally. How do you communicate Hey,
I'm a sexual. This is who I am. This is
(26:24):
like is it just a normal conversation? Is the first
thing you say? Like? What how do you do this? So?
I actually had dinner with a friend and her friend,
uh SISS hetero woman and a SIS hetero man, and
we were talking about relationships and stuff, and I think
the guy asked me like if I had ever dated,
or like do I date or something? And I was like,
(26:45):
oh no, I don't do that. And my friend was like,
but you have to give the backstory, and so I
was like, here's the backstory. I'm a sexual, I'm not interested. Um,
usually I just say it like that. I'm like, usually
nobody knows what it means. So I'm like gearing myself
up to have to explain it. But it's just easier
(27:06):
than being like, hey, so you know, um, as far
as relationships go, I've kind of deliberately stayed away from
them because I don't know how to approach it. I'm like,
do I say that, Like like when I walk in
and we're like we're sitting down together, and I'm like, hey, hello,
I'm a sexual Like like I feel like I need
(27:26):
to have like a name tag on, put it on
like my all my social media profiles, Like just so
you guys know, um, do I assume that? Like they've
googled me beforehand? And then like saw, I have no idea. Uh,
that's yeah, that's to be determined. I'll keep you guys
updated or not again, Like, that's not something that you
would not want to do without a relationship. We're talking
(27:48):
about in general, just an emotional connection, whether it's to
go on dates or whether it's to have brunch with someone.
Because sometimes for me being new in any kind of
relationships in general, just like me and I just want
someone to go with me to brunch and just have
a conversation with and that's the relationship in itself, which
would be nice. So I'm assuming that companionship. So how
do you even approach that? In understanding you're all sexuality
(28:12):
and being good with what you are, but now you've
got to share it with the one as well. Yeah,
I actually do have. Um I call them my possibility
models because one is by and Ace but a demisexual,
which is the type of a sexuality where you gain
sexual attraction after um emotional attraction, and she is with
(28:37):
a lesbian who she described as very much not a sexual.
And I'm kind of like, well, you guys are like
living the life you've got, like your house and your
four cats, and I like, I really want to be
just like you guys. Um, so I think it's possible.
But at the same time that that relationship came out
of like a long term friendship, and so I'm kind
of like looking more for my friends to like set
(29:01):
me up with people they know, because like the idea
of like swiping and like, oh it's ugly. It just
feels awful, especially when like everybody's like, oh, get on
Tinder and I'm like, isn't that the one that people
go to explicitly for sex? Like why are you telling me?
It feels like false adverage? Right, Yeah, that reminds me
(29:22):
of m seen Jack Horsemen. I haven't, but I heard
there's a really great a sexual character and yeah, a
sexual character and uh in the last season, the most
recent season, they like develop an app for aces to
meet other caces. Oh, that would be really cool. Yeah,
product idea. Yeah, let's do this, y'all. Here we go
(29:46):
start a business together. Is that, like, aren't the people
with that skill set like in this building? I would
the podcast goes silent app um so mentioned INMI sexual,
I wonder if you could um off the top of
your head and if not, totally cool. But the other
types of sexual a sexuality um so, I believe that
(30:10):
great a sexual or I think gray sexual because words
um is when you have sexual attractions sometimes. So those
should be the people who are like I guess like
your model a sexual for everybody who it's not a
sexual and be like, oh no, sometimes you are interested
in sex. It's not quite like the woman who like
(30:32):
has migraines a lot, or maybe she does have migraines
a lot because she doesn't know how to like disappoint
you by telling that she does not want to have sex. Right,
but the sex is bad where the sex with you
is bad? Stop having bad sex? You guys, like, why
why are you this? Who's not doing it? Don't bad sex?
(30:54):
If you're bad at it kept better next episode. Um.
And then there is auto chorus sexual or ed geo
sexual a e g o sexual um, which is sexual
attraction that's kind of like detached. And that's kind of
(31:14):
what I experienced. So like when I say, don't fantasize
about people I actually know, it's also like not me
in the fantasy either. I don't know something about it
just feels like really weird and gross and personal. Um.
So I guess it would be like when people read
erotic fiction and they're like identifying with the characters, but
they're not like the character themselves. It's kind of like that.
(31:36):
It's really weird when you have one of those moments
and then you see them in real life you're like, oh,
that is not how I picked or do Now it
just killed everything. No, I just totally, I'm totally I'm
following you. Another another pop culture reference. I don't know
how many I have left before my card is full.
But Angela Chase on My Soul called Life, she I
(32:00):
need to go back and rewatch the series to determine
for sure whether or not she counts as an as icon.
But she has a lot of thoughts about like making out.
When she starts making out with Jordan Catalano, she's like amaze.
She's like I can't believe that this is like a
thing that we're doing, and like she's very focused on
like it as part of her life versus everything else
(32:21):
that's going on. And then there's this like great scene
where she's talking about like I can't believe people just
like have sex, like they just like do it with
each other. Like my teacher like he probably had sex yesterday,
and like this other teacher also probably did and like
isn't that weird though? We all just kind of like
do it and like that's just it. And I was like, yes, Angela,
(32:44):
that's so weird. I connect. I connect with this um
there there was when I was looking into some research,
I found the term queer platonic, which is people who
experience a type of non romantic relationship where there is
an intense emotional connection that goes beyond a traditional friendship.
(33:05):
And when I read that, I was like, I have
experienced that before. What's the what's the past a traditional friendship?
Is that? Like I think it's for me the way
I interpreted it, in the way that the relationship I'm
connecting it to people look at us and said you
are in love. It was like, we are not um,
but it was more than a friendship, Like we just
(33:26):
experienced such an intense connection and there was never any
possibility of sex, neither of us and I am very
I have a very bad track record with this, but
I know this for sure in this relationship because we
discussed it. Also he was gay. That makes that that's
the same question for me. And like what goes from
beyond oh, we're best friends to queer platonic? I think
(33:50):
because for me UM, most of the time I'm with
a best friend. Me. Yes, it's it's doesn't have the
same level of like emotional intensity it has. It does
have an emotional intensity, but it's not like the same
thing where people look at you in there like I mean,
people would tell me you were the same side of
(34:12):
a coin, like you you two are meant to be together, like, no,
we're not um, but I did experience it, like I felt.
I imagine that's the closest I'm ever going to feel
to what traditional love is UM in my lifetime. But
I could be wrong, I think in this in my
example in particular, and this is obviously very personal to me,
(34:33):
but it was something where I could recognize, like this
is perhaps the clinical thing that people feel. There's no
I never wanted to date, like I didn't want sex,
but I did feel that like I need to be
with this person, I need to talk to this person
like all the time, just all the time. And he
felt it too, and it was a very strong um
(34:56):
connection that we made. And actually, um, story behind my
tattoo or I won't get into now, but it is
quite the story. Um. So just when I read that,
I felt, I've had so many people from the outside
look at that relationship and tell me you were in love,
and I kept trying to express I wasn't, or at
(35:17):
least not in the way that you mean it. Um,
But I can I can understand looking from the outside.
I just I knew the feeling myself, and I was
very confident in like we might have loved each other,
but we weren't. And wow, that makes sense to research
a queer platonic a little more. Should just like a
(35:37):
like a will in Greece filling up with you on
that one, Yeah, the will you have a baby with
me but we're not together together? Yeah, I haven't seen
All Grace in a long time, but I'll have to.
I don't think I've ever watched more than two episodes
mm hmm. That's because growing up, I just never watched
(35:59):
TV as much m hm. And that that was the
era I didn't watch a lot of TV. Because I'm
trying to relate, I can't and now I know more,
I will say that, but Willing Grace was not in
my forte. I'm trying to think of when what years
were those, like early two thousand's to late two thousands.
That was being religious. That was me being religious, and
(36:21):
I'm like, I'm not watching TV all I watched. Princess
Bride was my go to? What Princess Bride? Yeah, that's
I almost got really theheartened with you when you were
I just say about Princess Bride. Okay, now I got here, Okay,
all right, we're okay, now, okay, good, We're okay. We
(36:41):
have a little bit more for you listeners, but first
we have one more quick break for word from our
sponsor and we're back. Thank you. Um So, I was
(37:04):
looking at this website where it was like how to
tell if you're a sexual and essentially if you don't
experience sexual attraction. That's pretty good. First question to ask um,
would you have any advice for people who are maybe
newly discovering that they're a sexual or maybe questions they
(37:27):
can ask themselves to find out if they are if
they think they might be. Now I want to do
like are you a Spano or something that'd be awesome.
I want to encourage that. Yeah, I'm just gonna say
that I please play games. I love games. Keep going. Um,
I would say definitely talk to the people around you,
(37:49):
like your friends, about like when they're in relationships with
people and how they feel about the person there with
versus how you feel, because, like I said, everything was
normal until I found out it was in and then
I guess pay attention to like TV shows and how
relationships are presented there and like see that feeling of
like the natural progression of our relationship leading to sex
(38:10):
And are you kind of like yeah, I buy this,
Like I totally like that's how I feel about the
person I'm with or are you kind of like I
don't get why every relationship is like ending its sex?
Can we just like watch people like hang out, we
watch people to be queerly platonic together. Yes, Um, that's
the brand new sitcom queerly Platonic. That's gonna beyond thee
(38:33):
in this episode clear botonic. I mean, that is freaking amazing.
I I have to say, like, I grew up in
a very small town and it was very conservative, and
so I just wasn't exposed to a lot of different
and a lot of us aren't through media anyway, but
I wasn't exposed to a lot of different relationships. And
(38:55):
every time I see one like odd on bow Jack Horsemen,
I'm it's just the most amazing thing. So I can't
believe it took this long to see something like this. Um,
do you have since you are so into pop culture
and have you given several examples already, But do you
have any other ace icons as you've been calling them?
(39:18):
Not really, I look for them everywhere and then they
have sex and it's like and it's like their whole
life changes. Like on Riverdale Jughead um was I still
can't figure out at what point he was declared a
sexual and if it was supposed to be like jug
Head of the comics or Junkhead of the show. But
if you're supposed to be a sexual in the show.
They completely botched it because they have not addressed anything
(39:41):
around sex and then his relationship with Betty. Sorry spoilers.
I guess um they are just like any other team
couple and have sex and like for like an episode
before and a few episodes after. I was just kind
of like waiting for them to like address it, and
nobody ever did. Um. Yeah, most of I actually like
googled to see like um, to like jog my memory
(40:04):
and see if there was somebody I was missing, and
Todd from BoJack Horseman was the only one who anybody
could agree was like actually a sexual and not like
on the spectrum or otherwise like had other reasons for
not being interested in sex or uh sex averse or
just like somebody who never had sex. Like somebody put
out there that Dumbledore is a sexual, and I was like,
come on, you guys, like that's not just not seeing
(40:26):
somebody have sex. It's not a sexual. And if somebody
were to be a sexual and an icon, it would
be McGonagall, Like, let's be real, and then you would
say her in Doubledoors relationship could be clearly botonic. It's
all coming together. We just did it. And we have
brought another Harry Potter reference. You're welcome Annie once per episode. Yeah,
(40:53):
so right now, I would say YouTube are ace icon. Oh,
I very like, I am so new to this, but
I think because you're asking the right questions and you're
having this conversation and you're making it very clear, as
well as the fact that there's a spectrum, you too,
in my humble opinion, are a psychon. Well, thank you.
(41:18):
If I had an award for you, I'll give you one,
so pretend like I did. Thank you so beautiful, shiny,
so big. Sorry. Um, yeah, I feel I mean, there's
a lot to unpack in our media. Always we come
(41:41):
back to that. But just I do think that, um,
every time man and women are on screen together, they
have to have sex eventually, and it's very right. Well,
that's also like the sad part of any kind of
friend shows, the fact that opposite sex when they're together,
I'm not going to have sex to less me is
can't be just friends. They're going to have sex as well.
(42:02):
Or two homosexual men they're going to have sex as well,
even though they may just be fliving friends. Yeah. Um,
everything has to do with sex apparently in our media. Yes,
But the fact is that having conversations like this to
be able to um go beyond generalizations as well as
(42:22):
understanding that there are people that are seen like that's
the biggest part is can I be seen and you
two are those who are like, I see you because
I am you, And that is a bigger part of
the conversation that needs to happen, Whether it's you writing
an article in Team Boat, which is fantastic because that's
such a big medium in itself, as well as doing
podcasts specifically specifically two girls about Hey, it's okay, you're
(42:45):
not just here for sex and if you don't feel
sex with attraction, that's okay too. Yeah, because that is
another common misconception, UM that people report feeling broken because
they don't because it is UM. Like I said, when
my friends all were experiencing it and I wasn't, I
(43:07):
thought something must be wrong. UM And yeah, it's just
it's on the spectrum. It's something and you can experience
it in many different ways. You can never romantic attraction.
You could sometimes be attracted. UM. So I'm very glad
that you came on, you agreed to come on and
talk to us. Yeah, yeah, I'm open for all, any
(43:29):
and all a sexuality questions because only there's nobody else
out here taking them, so I might as well put
myself out I mean, I've already put myself out there,
but I'm still here. And then the other conversation is
for people of color, myself included, we are so overly
sexualized to be that person be like nope, no, I'm
(43:51):
good without it. I'm sure that's a whole different like
shock factor for many of people in itself, because I
think as an Asian woman who there's a damn fetish
or which is by the way, um it is, it's
hard to recognize separation of female specific race and sexuality,
and to separate that would be like cataclysmic from many men.
(44:14):
And they're weird fantasy worlds. They're weird fantasy world that's
fantasies are not bad. But I'm just saying, like I've
definitely had the weird people approached me, I would apologize
for them. They should apologize the true story, true story.
And again having that conversation again, women are not just
(44:37):
for sex, which is the opposite of what we're seeing,
and the conversations in the world and around the world
and the value of women in general. Are people who
identify as women or identify as female or driven non
binary and being seen as female. We are able to
make our own decisions of who we are and what
(44:58):
we prefer, what we don't prefer. Yeah, or just be
treated like humans who are bored a certain way. What ridiculous. Um. Yeah,
we really appreciate you coming on. Is there anything else
that you want to touch on before we close out?
(45:18):
I don't think so, but I'm really good for remembering
stuff later, Like as I drive away, I'll probably think, God,
that's what I said. Well, you're welcome back anything outside
of now as his friends, but outside of us. So
I'll have your bagels and your coffee anytime, coming Tuesdays.
(45:40):
This is how I do things. I only come to
eat food. I mean that's that was then until I
am um. But yeah, yeah, anytime you want to come back,
whether it's to talk about this, our pop culture or whatever.
And also I would love to keep talking about care
because I think they do some really good things and
really necessary things, especially right now and the fight for
or um against poverty, and then just equal representation. If
(46:05):
anybody wants to shoot a message to car on Twitter
or Facebook. That'll be me replying back to you. So
ask me how to donate or how to get donate.
And speaking of um, where can people find you? And
are there any project you're working on that you're excited
about on the horizon? Not currently working on anything because
(46:28):
I left media and then just kind of like stayed
gone with like a toe in the door. So I'm
working on getting the rest of my foot and body
through back through the door. Um. But people can find
me on Twitter and Instagram at joe a dance so
j o A d A n s oh my last name. Um,
(46:49):
people say I'm funny. So I got an iPhone tent.
I keep taking pictures of my cats, so if you
want to see those, you're a cat person. Absolutely, I'm
a doctor parson. Sorry, here we go. I'm a neither.
She doesn't like animals, fish. I don't mind how about this.
I'm just generally neutral, animal neutral, animal neutral. Um, but yes,
(47:16):
pictures of cats on the iPhone. Tain can't do better
than that, everybody right, right, And that brings us to
the end of our interview. I have to tell you
all the time, I am so amazed and I feel
so fortunate for the people who are willing to come
into doctors. They're so awesome. Yes, and hopefully she will
(47:38):
be back. I'm pretty sure we're bring her back. He's
too smart. We gotta put her on everything. Let's do that.
If you want to hear more of Agile's work, don't
forget to check out her podcast about South podcast. Um.
But in the meantime, this brings us to the end
of this episode. But we would love to hear from
(47:58):
you listeners, if you would like to email, as you
can at our new emails. It is tough media mom
Stuff at I Heart radio dot com and all anything
you said to the old email address. We have had
so many email addresses, and if I had the time
and my boss wouldn't yell at me, I would talk
about the history of the email address. But I'm sure
(48:20):
no one is interested in it but me. Um. But
any of the old email addresses you email it will
eventually arrive at it that one. Sorry. Oh it is
a long and long interesting it is. Oh it is.
You can also find us on social media. You can
find us on Instagram at Stuff I've Never Told You
and on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always
(48:43):
to our super producer Andrew Howard, Andrew Hallward, Andrew, thanks
to you for listening. Steph, I've never told you. It
was a production of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works.
For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I
heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
Hey, this is Annie. Hey, I'm Samantha and welcome to Stephan.
I never told your production of I Hire Radio's House
AFT works. So we're kind of doing one of our
we we love an arc around here, like a mini series,
(00:27):
and we're doing one on sexuality. Yes, and lately y'all
know that I've been struggling to nail down my sexuality,
which is really fun. As a thirty year old woman,
I gotta say and specifically whether or not I'm a
sexual and it's it's funny because Peak behind the Curtains.
(00:48):
We recorded this interview that we're about to play for
you about a sexuality the same day we did an
interview about bondage and that goes hand in hand. Yeah. Yeah,
part of this art it is to talk about this.
We brought in Adua Danzo, who has written about her
experience of being an ace as it's often shortened to
(01:11):
in teen Vogue, and she also works on a podcast
called About South podcast that you should all totally check out.
So let's get right into it. So I am Adua
Dance So also known as Joa Dance. So. Um that's
a nickname with the storied history and um, I have
(01:32):
a background in journalistic writing, born and raised in Atlanta.
Previously worked at Creative Loathing, and I currently work at
car U s a not the nanny ng and home
care site, but the UH the inventor of the care
package that currently works to eradicate global poverty by empowering
women and girls. Um, I'm on the social media team there. Yeah. Um.
(01:56):
And a couple of months ago, we had a friend
of mine, son of Vashi, on to talk about Asian
American identity and afterwards I picked her brain of like
who should I talk to in Atlanta? And she recommended
you for um a couple of things actually, because she said,
you have very funny takes on pop culture, which I
(02:19):
am intrigued, which I have a lot of a vature.
I think you and I could banter really well. That
could be fue but I won't. I won't put that
there now, but I'm just saying that's a future episode. Yes,
pop culture banter always welcome. But also, um, a sexuality,
which is you You wrote a piece for teen Vogue
about your your experience. Yeah yeah, so, Um, I am
(02:43):
a sexual and that does not mean that I recreate
or procreate with myself. That would be a popular UM. Basically,
a sexuals exists outside the standard spectrum of sexuality and
sexual attraction. So we are all taught that, like, you
(03:06):
are sexually attracted to people, and like that's what you do. UM.
And I basically had a light bulb moment where I
was like, wait, but you guys experienced and what I
experienced are not the same thing at all, and it
sent me into a Google spiral. I think I was
like twenty three when I found out, so I was like, wait, no,
how did I miss this? UM? I actually had a
sexual friend when I was a teenager and it did
(03:27):
not click at all that UM, she and I had
more in common than other people that I was friends with.
And UM, Basically, there are a lot of people in
the world who will just look at another person and
know that they want to have sex with that person.
Maybe after a conversation they know, maybe they like see
(03:48):
them at the coffee shop every day and they know
that's not me. I don't feel comfortable saying that I've
ever had sexual attraction towards someone in the way that
the majority of people do. UM. So, like, even when
you like watch TV shows and stuff and you're like, man,
they started having sex like really fast, like Derek and
(04:11):
Meredith on Grey's Anatomy One night Stands. I was like,
I don't understand how you just like have sex with
somebody like you don't have like questions about them. First, Um,
I've that is not my experience. And um, while there
are a sexuals who do have things that line up
with the norm or varied experiences across the spectrum, the
(04:32):
gist is that there are what I call sexual people
and then there are people who don't experience it in
the same way. And I am under that umbrella. Um,
would you mind expounding more on that that lightbulb moment?
Trying to remember exactly what the moment was. Um. It
(04:56):
was kind of a series of conversations, but one in
partic killer was with one of my old roommates in college,
where we would just like be up at night talking
about like relationships and stuff like that. You know, like
when you're like an ambitious young black woman and they're like,
no people who match your vibe, You're just kind of like, oh,
it'll come later, right. And then I graduated and she
(05:20):
still lived in the dorm, and she sent me a
photo of the lgbt Q history month board and the
definition of a sexuality on that board and was like,
you might be a sexual l O L. And I
was like, con I know what a sexuality is, Like,
that's not me. And then I read the definitions and
I was like, oh, that is me, um, And so
I started googling, and like things just started clicking and
(05:43):
making sense. And the best analogy that I have for
like that moment is, uh the spoiler alert episode of
How I Met Your Mother when Ted's dating a woman
who ends up being like a huge talker and at
the end she's dating a deaf guy who doesn't notice
that she talks a whole lot. But throughout the episode,
each person in the group like realizes something about somebody
else in the group and it's like glass shattering place
(06:04):
above their head. And that's like what it felt like
from me. I was like, no, Like the world is crashing,
Like how how did I get this far in my
life and never have this kind of knowledge, especially because
I've my primary identity primary and quotation marks, um, I'm black.
You can like see it, like really clearly, So that's primary.
Um is being queer. Like I identified as bisexual for
(06:30):
several years. I still kind of do depending on the day.
And um, I was just kind of like shocked that
like somebody is like in tune and like knowledgeable and
conscious and like paying attention as I am did not
know this thing. Yeah, and I kind of alluded to
it in our communications, But as I have done this podcast,
(06:53):
I've had a similar realization. It's it's so fun to
be researching something, um, And I say on not sarcastically,
but also I don't know if that's the best word,
but to be researching something and to be like, huh oh,
maybe that describes me. Um. And so listeners have had
(07:16):
the fun time of being with me on this journey
of is an a sexual? I mean, and let's just
have that conversation, is why do you feel like this
is something that or a does it feel like? It
kind of was a relief to understand yourself a little
more in that way. Yeah, it definitely flipped my world
upside down, but it was a huge relief. Um. Before
(07:39):
I learned what asexuality is and that it fit for me,
I was like really concerned. I was like, is there
something wrong with me? And I like represhing some childhood
sexual trauma because they're like a reason for why I
haven't um been on the same like wavelength that's my
peers in terms of relationships and stuff like that. UM.
(08:01):
And then finding out I was a sexual, I was like,
oh cool, there's my answer. UM. But at the same time,
there is the part that's like still kind of unknown.
There are a lot of people who don't believe in
a sexuality or don't think that they would even be
willing to be in a relationship with an a sexual person,
(08:21):
And uh, those are the kinds of things where like,
don't read the comments is like really real, because you
know what you're going to get in the comments there,
Like after like three or four different comments sections, you're like, Okay,
there's clearly, uh, like line of thought that's connecting all
of these things, and it does not serve me, So
I should probably just not look at it. Um. But
(08:41):
I speak in metaphors, So I have a metaphor for this,
of course, and I've thought about it a lot. Like
the metaphor that I'm giving here is not the same
one that's in my Team Vogue piece and is not
the same one that was in the first draft, but
just bear with me. So I'm a huge Top Chef
fan and Richard Blaze of Top Chef. He opened Flip
Burger in Atlanta and had wanted to go for years
(09:04):
and watching the show, everybody always like did like their tartars,
like steak tartar, and he had a steak tartar burger
on the menu, and I'm like, cool, I'm going to
go for my birthday. I want the steak tartar burger.
And I get there and I take a bite and
it makes me nauseated immediately, and I was like, no,
I can't enjoy this food that I've always wanted to enjoy.
That is my worst case scenario basically. So it's yet
(09:27):
to be determined, but um, yeah, I can't imagine. Like
I consider myself very like sex positive person. I'm like, uh,
pro like female orgasm, pro like sex toys, whatever you need,
very anti like, uh, what is it? They say? Uh,
parts not hearts. I feel like that's I don't subscribe
(09:49):
to parts over hearts. Um, and so I feel like
I need someone to explain it to me. What is this?
I was so I put like that was going to
be like yeah, but I'm like not hard, I've not
heard this, so It's basically a way of saying, uh,
don't be transphobic in your selection of a partner. Like,
(10:10):
just because you meet a woman who has a penis
or a man who has a vagina does not mean that,
like you guys cannot still find sexual satisfaction enjoyment with one. Okay,
that makes more sense. I'm not gonna I have never
heard that expression. Keep going. Um So yeah, I like,
I feel like this very sex positive person. I tell people, like,
(10:31):
in my mind I could be Samantha from Sex in
the City, but in reality I'm like the opposite. Um.
And so I hope that like there will be a
world in which people like understand what a sexuality is
and that like there is uh as much as no
means no, which it does, there is flexibility among a
(10:54):
sexual people. So there are a sexuals who form a
sexual attraction once they've formed a romantic attraction or once
they've formed an emotional attraction. There's some people who will
be like a sexual for years and then um just aren't.
There are a sexual people who are sex averse and
(11:14):
some who are like I don't really get the deal
with sex, but I do it anyway. Um. Actually, Lane
Kim from Gilmore Girls is uh, potentially an ACE icon.
It is not, it's not canon, I don't think, but um,
she famously like waits to have sex because she's been
like brought up in strong Christian beliefs and it's like
(11:36):
basically terrified of what happened if her mom caught her
having sex. And so she gets married and has sex
on the honeymoon and she comes back and she's like, yeah,
I don't know what you guys were talking about, Like
that was kind of like really awful, Like you guys
were clearly this was all a conspiracy to keep me
from having sex. Everybody like talking about how great it was. Um,
And I don't know that there are many other ACE
(11:59):
icons like that. But the caveat with Lane is that, um,
you're not necessarily sex a verse if you are a sexual.
And the other split there that was like mind blowing
for me is that there are people who are romantically
attracted and people who are sexually attracted. And I was
kind of like, oh, we're taught that, like we're basically
(12:21):
socialized that all girls are romantically attracted to every person
they have sex with, and that's why I like you
shouldn't have sex because he'll break your heart and leave you.
But everyone experiences romantic attraction and sexual attraction or exists
on that spectrum. There are people who don't experience romantic
attraction or sexual attraction. There's some who have one but
(12:41):
not the other. UM. I like to think of the
people who find romantic long term relationships with the opposite
sex even though they are homosexual or well, I guess
that's the only other option really. Um. But like those
old episodes of where she's like, how could you be
with this woman for forty five years if you're gay?
(13:04):
And it's like, well, maybe he was romantically attracted to her,
or even just platonically attracted to her and not actually
attracted to her, or vice versa, or none of the above.
Like this is really just turned everything upside down because
I'm like everything applies everywhere and nothing means everything. One
(13:25):
thing I loved about your your piece and teen Vogue is, UM,
you're talking about the questions you get and then kind
of for yourself still working through what Like someone would
ask you something and then you have to kind of
think about it, like, oh, yeah, what does that mean? UM?
Can you talk more about what your experience has been
(13:46):
around that, and maybe some questions you get frequently and
misconceptions things like that. Yeah, the number one misconception I
would say is that a sexuals are sex averse and
just like not interested in sex in any capacity, which
(14:06):
like I'm a picture of like it not being true,
like worst case scenarios that like in five years, I'm like,
oh no, that a sexuality thing was totally just like
a blip, like it didn't even happen. Um, But now
I feel very strongly that, um, what is true today
may not be true in ten years, and that I
can still identify as a sexual the whole time. But um,
(14:27):
people do often ask uh, like just basically like how
does that work? Or like why is it like that?
It's almost like I'm a little bit of a science
experiment to other people and to myself, And I really
only learned about myself through talking to other people because
like everything for me is normal until I say it
out loud. Um. One thing that I didn't mention in
(14:48):
the piece was sexual fantasies and how like like wait,
that's like a thing that everybody does, Yeah, but um,
mine aren't like everybody else's, like for me, it's very
weird and uncomfortable to fantasize about like a real person
I've met. And no, I'm like, wait, isn't that like
a violation of like their privacy and comfort? Like I
don't know, I feel like I need like consent to
(15:10):
fantasize the value and then also, um, fantasizing about somebody
then like seeing them and looking at them in the
face the next day, Like isn't that weird? Like somebody's
gonna have to Uh, your listeners should like let me
know and like, yes, please share all of your sexual
faces blood the endbox. Um. I think other people kind
(15:31):
of want to know, like how does a sexuality fit
with the rest of the queer alphabet, Like can you
be a sexual and gay and a sexual and strain
and a sexual and like attracted to different genders? And
the answers yes, Um, they exist in parallel with each other.
So like how somebody you can be a sexual and
(15:55):
trans and homosexual all at the same time. Um, they're no.
I mean I've I really want to like talk to
like a straight a sexual guy because I have no
idea like what that experience would be like, And I
just wonder how like they are socialized versus me. That
would be an interesting because I know there's many times
where I've had conversations with people about um, heterosexual men
(16:20):
and they're not sexual, and you start questioning, well, they're
just gay, Like the automatic assumption is they're gay, UM,
And there's a couple of moments I'm like, I think
they're actually a sexual. I think there may be a
whole different concept to this UM. And you're right. I
don't know if I've known many or been any instances
what I've heard heterosexual man say I'm a sexual. The
only ones that, like, the one that comes to the
(16:42):
mind immediately is Jim Parson's character on Big Bang Theory.
But he's like, oh, he's a sexual because he's like
on the autoism spectrum and like super intelligent, like that's
what an ACE guy looks like. And it's like, no, uh,
I am not particularly like gifted in the maths and
sign answers, and I find myself to be like, uh,
(17:04):
I'm better in social situations in Sheldon is UM, but
I like, I'm still a sexual. Like it's not like
it's um a symptom of something or like a sign
of like a larger mental issue. It just kind of
is a sexuality has um the research of it has
(17:25):
roots and like female sexual dysfunction. Um, there's this fantastic
and infuriating documentary called orgasm Ink that I watched not
long after I realised it was a sexual I just
kept making my room. May pose it like weight, but
all these things are wrong, Like don't they know that
there are other ways to answer these questions and solve
these problems. Um. And the doctor I spoke to for
(17:47):
my teen folk piece, Lori Bratto, like she said that
like that's where it came from, was just like not
knowing how to really place people's different sexual preferences and
non preferences, and so it was like, let's just study
and see if there's something wrong with them. And basically
it was like maybe these people just aren't experiencing things
the way that we're expecting them to. Yeah, are you okay? An?
(18:12):
So yeah, that's the question. So a sexuality began was
an eye with an idea like that's you're dysfunctional. So
that for your a sexual if you can't have a
normal reaction to sex, meaning you're not actually um pleasured
and or h, where's the word when you're aroused, you're
not actually aroused, so that it meant for your a
sexual there's for there's something that's like not functional about you.
(18:32):
Is that the context it was originated? Yeah? Yeah, Um,
And I was researching earlier today kind of some common
misconceptions because um, it's estimated that a sexual people or
you know aces as they sometimes call themselves, as one
(18:53):
percent of a population. Um. And it's also sometimes called
the invisible orientation. And um, some of the misconceptions I
found one, Um, it's not like being in a petri
dish or how god Zilla procreates Uh yeah, because Godzilla
(19:14):
procreates a sexually. Another common misconception is it's not an
abstinate spledge. Um, which I made this mistake in college
because I don't know where I was, but they were
doing this thing like how many people are abstinate? And
(19:35):
I just stood up in a panic. Like me. Later,
I was like, oh no, no, not me, this is
my choice. I just don't want sex. It's different than
like making an abstinence pledge. I'm sorry, keep going. Uh.
Not a synonym for celibacy, not a disorder, um, not
(19:58):
a fear of sex or relationship ups. You can date,
fall love, get married, have kids, masturbate, fantasize, orgasm, all
those things. It's not caused by a chemical or hormonal imbalance. Um.
It's not a choice. It's an orientation. Um. And then,
as some listeners have written in about this, since I
mentioned that, I was, you know, wrestling with is this
(20:20):
me the whole idea of corrective rape? Just no, it
doesn't work. Correct is bad. Oh, it's like you you
would like sex if you had it, even if you
don't want to. Oh. So like when guys are like,
I'm going to make you straight from being a lesbian
by rad you Okay, Okay, that's boring and disgusting in itself.
Let's just go ahead with that out there. And you
(20:41):
are the worst you think that in the statement yes, yes,
it's just um, I mean, are these are these things
that you have encountered? Are um, that you had to
think about when you were sort of coming to terms
with this? This is what I'm a sexual, less in
(21:03):
coming to terms with it and more in talking to
other people, because like I was in my mid twenties
or early twenties, I guess, um when I found out.
So it was like I kind of already knew myself
in a lot of ways. I knew that I experienced
sexual desire. I knew that like I wasn't celibate or abstinate,
like oh no, sex, keep that away from me. It
(21:25):
was more just like a thing that hadn't presented itself
as an opportunity and um, but I also knew I
wasn't like seeking sex either. I used to think that
it was like one of those like light bulb moments
that would be like, oh, I like hit twenty five,
or like when I graduate and I'm not like bogged
down by school and like college students around me, then
maybe the light bulb will turn on and I'll be
(21:47):
ready to go. And then I found this out and
I was like, Okay, well, I guess it's just not
in me too for that to happen, although you know,
never know, could still happen. But in like with other people, Yeah,
I feel like I'm educating people every time I bring
it up. And it was kind of funny when uh,
you invited me here, I was like, wait, but I
(22:08):
already wrote about it. Why do people still have questions?
And everybody just like googling and finding my words and
then like calling it a day. But no, people definitely
do not know. Uh, all of these misconceptions are not
things that are real phrase people, Yeah, so have you
had any of these conversations with the head of a
sexual man, like, is that ever been a thing where
(22:29):
they question and then it becomes a whole conversation. No. Um,
but that's mostly because I don't really like find myself
around heterosexual men A whole lot's fair. Um, with like
friends and stuff, people will like have their questions and
I'm usually it's like the most open part of me.
I'm like, oh my god, you guys, Like I just
(22:50):
learned this cool thing. I need to like ask you
about it so that I can understand it better. And
so for probably like a year and a half there,
like everybody I met, I was like in producing myself
and trying not to be like and I'm a sexual
and I have questions, let's talk about how you feel
about sex. But it does influence the way I like
look at the world where I like, you know, like
(23:11):
when there's Derek and Meredith on Gray's Anatomy having sex
again and I'm like, you, guys, but like he's married,
and like I don't understand, like what do you see
in each other? Or uh, this thing blew my mind,
Like people stay in relationships when the partnership sucks and
when the sex sucks. I'm like, what are you doing? Leave?
Like I cannot imagine, Like you are a sex having
(23:31):
person and you are choosing to like stay with the
bad sex. Like what I want that term sex having
person to be coining for you? That's a fantastic A
little yeah, I don't want that to be the statement
can put that in a spectrum. We have some more
(23:53):
to discuss with you listeners, but first we're gonna pause
for a quick break for a word from responsors, and
we're back. Thank you. Sponsored Yeah. I mentioned recently on
(24:15):
another podcast that for me, when I was growing up,
all my friends started to be attracted to people and
talking about how much they wanted sex, and I would
just be like, uh huh yeah, and trying to fit in.
It just never happened. It never happened. Like for you,
(24:35):
it's been the last couple of years that you've been
able because you've tried to have relationships. How to force
that level of like relationships means intimacy, intimacies For me,
design you as a sexual being and I'm like, and
you're like, I don't. I don't. Yeah, that that's been
a real because we never see representation of a sexuality
like I just assumed, um, And I've always identified as
(24:58):
bisexual as well. But I is to south, like eventually
I would meet the person and I would want to
have sex with that person. Yeah, and it just never happened.
And I thought, well, I've honestly, I've gone through a
lot of guilt because I cared about these people and
I thought, with enough time, I probably will want to
(25:21):
have sex with you. And it just never happened. And
in our society, I think because we don't talk about
this because we don't see it. Um, there is this,
especially for women, obligation that you are going to give
give sex like your's your duty exactly. And I felt
(25:42):
horrible about it because I did any of them make
you feel bad? No? Um, well some people did, but
they I dumped him, but like exactly right. But I
did have, um, a couple of relationships that were longer term,
and they never pressured me, but I still could sense it,
you know what I mean, Like, and I I felt
(26:04):
bad because I knew they wanted it, and and I
didn't know myself little enough to have been able to
communicate that too, you know what I mean. Like, so, yeah,
that is the other question. How do you communicate that
with people today that you meet or maybe are interested
in platonically and or just emotionally. How do you communicate Hey,
I'm a sexual. This is who I am. This is
(26:24):
like is it just a normal conversation? Is the first
thing you say? Like? What how do you do this? So?
I actually had dinner with a friend and her friend,
uh SISS hetero woman and a SIS hetero man, and
we were talking about relationships and stuff, and I think
the guy asked me like if I had ever dated,
or like do I date or something? And I was like,
(26:45):
oh no, I don't do that. And my friend was like,
but you have to give the backstory, and so I
was like, here's the backstory. I'm a sexual, I'm not interested. Um,
usually I just say it like that. I'm like, usually
nobody knows what it means. So I'm like gearing myself
up to have to explain it. But it's just easier
(27:06):
than being like, hey, so you know, um, as far
as relationships go, I've kind of deliberately stayed away from
them because I don't know how to approach it. I'm like,
do I say that, Like like when I walk in
and we're like we're sitting down together, and I'm like, hey, hello,
I'm a sexual Like like I feel like I need
(27:26):
to have like a name tag on, put it on
like my all my social media profiles, Like just so
you guys know, um, do I assume that? Like they've
googled me beforehand? And then like saw, I have no idea. Uh,
that's yeah, that's to be determined. I'll keep you guys
updated or not again, Like, that's not something that you
would not want to do without a relationship. We're talking
(27:48):
about in general, just an emotional connection, whether it's to
go on dates or whether it's to have brunch with someone.
Because sometimes for me being new in any kind of
relationships in general, just like me and I just want
someone to go with me to brunch and just have
a conversation with and that's the relationship in itself, which
would be nice. So I'm assuming that companionship. So how
do you even approach that? In understanding you're all sexuality
(28:12):
and being good with what you are, but now you've
got to share it with the one as well. Yeah,
I actually do have. Um I call them my possibility
models because one is by and Ace but a demisexual,
which is the type of a sexuality where you gain
sexual attraction after um emotional attraction, and she is with
(28:37):
a lesbian who she described as very much not a sexual.
And I'm kind of like, well, you guys are like
living the life you've got, like your house and your
four cats, and I like, I really want to be
just like you guys. Um, so I think it's possible.
But at the same time that that relationship came out
of like a long term friendship, and so I'm kind
of like looking more for my friends to like set
(29:01):
me up with people they know, because like the idea
of like swiping and like, oh it's ugly. It just
feels awful, especially when like everybody's like, oh, get on
Tinder and I'm like, isn't that the one that people
go to explicitly for sex? Like why are you telling me?
It feels like false adverage? Right, Yeah, that reminds me
(29:22):
of m seen Jack Horsemen. I haven't, but I heard
there's a really great a sexual character and yeah, a
sexual character and uh in the last season, the most
recent season, they like develop an app for aces to
meet other caces. Oh, that would be really cool. Yeah,
product idea. Yeah, let's do this, y'all. Here we go
(29:46):
start a business together. Is that, like, aren't the people
with that skill set like in this building? I would
the podcast goes silent app um so mentioned INMI sexual,
I wonder if you could um off the top of
your head and if not, totally cool. But the other
types of sexual a sexuality um so, I believe that
(30:10):
great a sexual or I think gray sexual because words
um is when you have sexual attractions sometimes. So those
should be the people who are like I guess like
your model a sexual for everybody who it's not a
sexual and be like, oh no, sometimes you are interested
in sex. It's not quite like the woman who like
(30:32):
has migraines a lot, or maybe she does have migraines
a lot because she doesn't know how to like disappoint
you by telling that she does not want to have sex. Right,
but the sex is bad where the sex with you
is bad? Stop having bad sex? You guys, like, why
why are you this? Who's not doing it? Don't bad sex?
(30:54):
If you're bad at it kept better next episode. Um.
And then there is auto chorus sexual or ed geo
sexual a e g o sexual um, which is sexual
attraction that's kind of like detached. And that's kind of
(31:14):
what I experienced. So like when I say, don't fantasize
about people I actually know, it's also like not me
in the fantasy either. I don't know something about it
just feels like really weird and gross and personal. Um.
So I guess it would be like when people read
erotic fiction and they're like identifying with the characters, but
they're not like the character themselves. It's kind of like that.
(31:36):
It's really weird when you have one of those moments
and then you see them in real life you're like, oh,
that is not how I picked or do Now it
just killed everything. No, I just totally, I'm totally I'm
following you. Another another pop culture reference. I don't know
how many I have left before my card is full.
But Angela Chase on My Soul called Life, she I
(32:00):
need to go back and rewatch the series to determine
for sure whether or not she counts as an as icon.
But she has a lot of thoughts about like making out.
When she starts making out with Jordan Catalano, she's like amaze.
She's like I can't believe that this is like a
thing that we're doing, and like she's very focused on
like it as part of her life versus everything else
(32:21):
that's going on. And then there's this like great scene
where she's talking about like I can't believe people just
like have sex, like they just like do it with
each other. Like my teacher like he probably had sex yesterday,
and like this other teacher also probably did and like
isn't that weird though? We all just kind of like
do it and like that's just it. And I was like, yes, Angela,
(32:44):
that's so weird. I connect. I connect with this um
there there was when I was looking into some research,
I found the term queer platonic, which is people who
experience a type of non romantic relationship where there is
an intense emotional connection that goes beyond a traditional friendship.
(33:05):
And when I read that, I was like, I have
experienced that before. What's the what's the past a traditional friendship?
Is that? Like I think it's for me the way
I interpreted it, in the way that the relationship I'm
connecting it to people look at us and said you
are in love. It was like, we are not um,
but it was more than a friendship, Like we just
(33:26):
experienced such an intense connection and there was never any
possibility of sex, neither of us and I am very
I have a very bad track record with this, but
I know this for sure in this relationship because we
discussed it. Also he was gay. That makes that that's
the same question for me. And like what goes from
beyond oh, we're best friends to queer platonic? I think
(33:50):
because for me UM, most of the time I'm with
a best friend. Me. Yes, it's it's doesn't have the
same level of like emotional intensity it has. It does
have an emotional intensity, but it's not like the same
thing where people look at you in there like I mean,
people would tell me you were the same side of
(34:12):
a coin, like you you two are meant to be together, like, no,
we're not um, but I did experience it, like I felt.
I imagine that's the closest I'm ever going to feel
to what traditional love is UM in my lifetime. But
I could be wrong, I think in this in my
example in particular, and this is obviously very personal to me,
(34:33):
but it was something where I could recognize, like this
is perhaps the clinical thing that people feel. There's no
I never wanted to date, like I didn't want sex,
but I did feel that like I need to be
with this person, I need to talk to this person
like all the time, just all the time. And he
felt it too, and it was a very strong um
(34:56):
connection that we made. And actually, um, story behind my
tattoo or I won't get into now, but it is
quite the story. Um. So just when I read that,
I felt, I've had so many people from the outside
look at that relationship and tell me you were in love,
and I kept trying to express I wasn't, or at
(35:17):
least not in the way that you mean it. Um,
But I can I can understand looking from the outside.
I just I knew the feeling myself, and I was
very confident in like we might have loved each other,
but we weren't. And wow, that makes sense to research
a queer platonic a little more. Should just like a
(35:37):
like a will in Greece filling up with you on
that one, Yeah, the will you have a baby with
me but we're not together together? Yeah, I haven't seen
All Grace in a long time, but I'll have to.
I don't think I've ever watched more than two episodes
mm hmm. That's because growing up, I just never watched
(35:59):
TV as much m hm. And that that was the
era I didn't watch a lot of TV. Because I'm
trying to relate, I can't and now I know more,
I will say that, but Willing Grace was not in
my forte. I'm trying to think of when what years
were those, like early two thousand's to late two thousands.
That was being religious. That was me being religious, and
(36:21):
I'm like, I'm not watching TV all I watched. Princess
Bride was my go to? What Princess Bride? Yeah, that's
I almost got really theheartened with you when you were
I just say about Princess Bride. Okay, now I got here, Okay,
all right, we're okay, now, okay, good, We're okay. We
(36:41):
have a little bit more for you listeners, but first
we have one more quick break for word from our
sponsor and we're back. Thank you. Um So, I was
(37:04):
looking at this website where it was like how to
tell if you're a sexual and essentially if you don't
experience sexual attraction. That's pretty good. First question to ask um,
would you have any advice for people who are maybe
newly discovering that they're a sexual or maybe questions they
(37:27):
can ask themselves to find out if they are if
they think they might be. Now I want to do
like are you a Spano or something that'd be awesome.
I want to encourage that. Yeah, I'm just gonna say
that I please play games. I love games. Keep going. Um,
I would say definitely talk to the people around you,
(37:49):
like your friends, about like when they're in relationships with
people and how they feel about the person there with
versus how you feel, because, like I said, everything was
normal until I found out it was in and then
I guess pay attention to like TV shows and how
relationships are presented there and like see that feeling of
like the natural progression of our relationship leading to sex
(38:10):
And are you kind of like yeah, I buy this,
Like I totally like that's how I feel about the
person I'm with or are you kind of like I
don't get why every relationship is like ending its sex?
Can we just like watch people like hang out, we
watch people to be queerly platonic together. Yes, Um, that's
the brand new sitcom queerly Platonic. That's gonna beyond thee
(38:33):
in this episode clear botonic. I mean, that is freaking amazing.
I I have to say, like, I grew up in
a very small town and it was very conservative, and
so I just wasn't exposed to a lot of different
and a lot of us aren't through media anyway, but
I wasn't exposed to a lot of different relationships. And
(38:55):
every time I see one like odd on bow Jack Horsemen,
I'm it's just the most amazing thing. So I can't
believe it took this long to see something like this. Um,
do you have since you are so into pop culture
and have you given several examples already, But do you
have any other ace icons as you've been calling them?
(39:18):
Not really, I look for them everywhere and then they
have sex and it's like and it's like their whole
life changes. Like on Riverdale Jughead um was I still
can't figure out at what point he was declared a
sexual and if it was supposed to be like jug
Head of the comics or Junkhead of the show. But
if you're supposed to be a sexual in the show.
They completely botched it because they have not addressed anything
(39:41):
around sex and then his relationship with Betty. Sorry spoilers.
I guess um they are just like any other team
couple and have sex and like for like an episode
before and a few episodes after. I was just kind
of like waiting for them to like address it, and
nobody ever did. Um. Yeah, most of I actually like
googled to see like um, to like jog my memory
(40:04):
and see if there was somebody I was missing, and
Todd from BoJack Horseman was the only one who anybody
could agree was like actually a sexual and not like
on the spectrum or otherwise like had other reasons for
not being interested in sex or uh sex averse or
just like somebody who never had sex. Like somebody put
out there that Dumbledore is a sexual, and I was like,
come on, you guys, like that's not just not seeing
(40:26):
somebody have sex. It's not a sexual. And if somebody
were to be a sexual and an icon, it would
be McGonagall, Like, let's be real, and then you would
say her in Doubledoors relationship could be clearly botonic. It's
all coming together. We just did it. And we have
brought another Harry Potter reference. You're welcome Annie once per episode. Yeah,
(40:53):
so right now, I would say YouTube are ace icon. Oh,
I very like, I am so new to this, but
I think because you're asking the right questions and you're
having this conversation and you're making it very clear, as
well as the fact that there's a spectrum, you too,
in my humble opinion, are a psychon. Well, thank you.
(41:18):
If I had an award for you, I'll give you one,
so pretend like I did. Thank you so beautiful, shiny,
so big. Sorry. Um, yeah, I feel I mean, there's
a lot to unpack in our media. Always we come
(41:41):
back to that. But just I do think that, um,
every time man and women are on screen together, they
have to have sex eventually, and it's very right. Well,
that's also like the sad part of any kind of
friend shows, the fact that opposite sex when they're together,
I'm not going to have sex to less me is
can't be just friends. They're going to have sex as well.
(42:02):
Or two homosexual men they're going to have sex as well,
even though they may just be fliving friends. Yeah. Um,
everything has to do with sex apparently in our media. Yes,
But the fact is that having conversations like this to
be able to um go beyond generalizations as well as
(42:22):
understanding that there are people that are seen like that's
the biggest part is can I be seen and you
two are those who are like, I see you because
I am you, And that is a bigger part of
the conversation that needs to happen, Whether it's you writing
an article in Team Boat, which is fantastic because that's
such a big medium in itself, as well as doing
podcasts specifically specifically two girls about Hey, it's okay, you're
(42:45):
not just here for sex and if you don't feel
sex with attraction, that's okay too. Yeah, because that is
another common misconception, UM that people report feeling broken because
they don't because it is UM. Like I said, when
my friends all were experiencing it and I wasn't, I
(43:07):
thought something must be wrong. UM And yeah, it's just
it's on the spectrum. It's something and you can experience
it in many different ways. You can never romantic attraction.
You could sometimes be attracted. UM. So I'm very glad
that you came on, you agreed to come on and
talk to us. Yeah, yeah, I'm open for all, any
(43:29):
and all a sexuality questions because only there's nobody else
out here taking them, so I might as well put
myself out I mean, I've already put myself out there,
but I'm still here. And then the other conversation is
for people of color, myself included, we are so overly
sexualized to be that person be like nope, no, I'm
(43:51):
good without it. I'm sure that's a whole different like
shock factor for many of people in itself, because I
think as an Asian woman who there's a damn fetish
or which is by the way, um it is, it's
hard to recognize separation of female specific race and sexuality,
and to separate that would be like cataclysmic from many men.
(44:14):
And they're weird fantasy worlds. They're weird fantasy world that's
fantasies are not bad. But I'm just saying, like I've
definitely had the weird people approached me, I would apologize
for them. They should apologize the true story, true story.
And again having that conversation again, women are not just
(44:37):
for sex, which is the opposite of what we're seeing,
and the conversations in the world and around the world
and the value of women in general. Are people who
identify as women or identify as female or driven non
binary and being seen as female. We are able to
make our own decisions of who we are and what
(44:58):
we prefer, what we don't prefer. Yeah, or just be
treated like humans who are bored a certain way. What ridiculous. Um. Yeah,
we really appreciate you coming on. Is there anything else
that you want to touch on before we close out?
(45:18):
I don't think so, but I'm really good for remembering
stuff later, Like as I drive away, I'll probably think, God,
that's what I said. Well, you're welcome back anything outside
of now as his friends, but outside of us. So
I'll have your bagels and your coffee anytime, coming Tuesdays.
(45:40):
This is how I do things. I only come to
eat food. I mean that's that was then until I
am um. But yeah, yeah, anytime you want to come back,
whether it's to talk about this, our pop culture or whatever.
And also I would love to keep talking about care
because I think they do some really good things and
really necessary things, especially right now and the fight for
or um against poverty, and then just equal representation. If
(46:05):
anybody wants to shoot a message to car on Twitter
or Facebook. That'll be me replying back to you. So
ask me how to donate or how to get donate.
And speaking of um, where can people find you? And
are there any project you're working on that you're excited
about on the horizon? Not currently working on anything because
(46:28):
I left media and then just kind of like stayed
gone with like a toe in the door. So I'm
working on getting the rest of my foot and body
through back through the door. Um. But people can find
me on Twitter and Instagram at joe a dance so
j o A d A n s oh my last name. Um,
(46:49):
people say I'm funny. So I got an iPhone tent.
I keep taking pictures of my cats, so if you
want to see those, you're a cat person. Absolutely, I'm
a doctor parson. Sorry, here we go. I'm a neither.
She doesn't like animals, fish. I don't mind how about this.
I'm just generally neutral, animal neutral, animal neutral. Um, but yes,
(47:16):
pictures of cats on the iPhone. Tain can't do better
than that, everybody right, right, And that brings us to
the end of our interview. I have to tell you
all the time, I am so amazed and I feel
so fortunate for the people who are willing to come
into doctors. They're so awesome. Yes, and hopefully she will
(47:38):
be back. I'm pretty sure we're bring her back. He's
too smart. We gotta put her on everything. Let's do that.
If you want to hear more of Agile's work, don't
forget to check out her podcast about South podcast. Um.
But in the meantime, this brings us to the end
of this episode. But we would love to hear from
(47:58):
you listeners, if you would like to email, as you
can at our new emails. It is tough media mom
Stuff at I Heart radio dot com and all anything
you said to the old email address. We have had
so many email addresses, and if I had the time
and my boss wouldn't yell at me, I would talk
about the history of the email address. But I'm sure
(48:20):
no one is interested in it but me. Um. But
any of the old email addresses you email it will
eventually arrive at it that one. Sorry. Oh it is
a long and long interesting it is. Oh it is.
You can also find us on social media. You can
find us on Instagram at Stuff I've Never Told You
and on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always
(48:43):
to our super producer Andrew Howard, Andrew Hallward, Andrew, thanks
to you for listening. Steph, I've never told you. It
was a production of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works.
For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I
heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
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Anney Reese
Samantha McVey
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