October 14, 2020 • 42 mins
In a whole new take on the 'period piece', Anney and Samantha finally discuss the genre of horror known as 'supernatural menstruation horror'.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to stuff
I never told your production of I Heeart Radio. For
today's question, I'm asking one that I guess I kind
of talked about a little bit before. But do you
remember when you got your first period? I do. I
(00:27):
was twelve years old, and I had been excited about it,
mainly because I've watched way too many sitcoms about how
this is a celebration of womanhood and how um this
is such a big deal, and I'm thinking my mom's
gonna at least give me, like I don't know, a
present of sores that tells me about it. Instead, I
(00:47):
got sent to my nurse offas who handed me a pad.
Who I went home and my mom was like, okay,
well I'll buy you some pads, and that was the
end of the story. I was like, cool, cool, cool.
And then to that I probably had some of the
worst cramps ever and I hated everything everything. Yeah, and
(01:08):
it took a little while before I started wearing tampons,
but man, those ads were so uncomfortable and gross. Yeah. Yeah,
I was nine and we were going we were going
to a field trip to the Fox Theater. Yeah, yeah,
(01:29):
to go see the nutcracker, and I was very, very excited,
and my teacher came up to me and put her
hand on my shoulder and like whispered in my ear, honey,
I have to talk to you. And um, it was
as though someone had died, like she was breaking the
news that someone had died, and I had to go home,
and like I was wearing khakis, so it was really
(01:51):
obvious blood stain. And yeah, I know I've talked about
it before, but I thought you only got it once.
So I was like it hurt and I had horrible cramps.
I but I got to stay home and I got RBS.
I remember getting Arby's. Nice. I did have a celebration,
that's nice. Yeah, And I you know, I didn't realize
it was a real thing. And I did do the
thing where I thought I was dying at first. Um,
(02:13):
but then it was explained to me. So the second
time I got my period was much much worse when
I realized, oh this is oh right, Oh no, right,
why why is he continuing to happen? Yeah? Um, but yeah,
today we are finally talking about something I've I've wanted
to talk about forever. It's happening and we're talking about
(02:36):
my theory that almost all horror movies are secretly about
male writers and their fear of female bodies in particular periods. Yes,
I guess this is kind of like a two parter
because the next one is kind of on that same
idea at least like reality. Yeah, yeah, I had a
real revelation researching this that it's you know, it's female bodies,
(02:57):
but it's also just women horror. The genre is almost
all about our fear of women. I mean that's fair. Yeah,
they should be, damn right. Um. But yes, note, obviously
not all women have periods, and we are being hearted
about this. And again, not all people who have periods
(03:19):
are women, and we acknowledge that, and that is a thing,
and it is all true, and we understand and respect that.
But for this specifically, we are talking about women's bodies,
especially when we talk about the old school horror movies,
who really, really, really really really we're afraid of women.
Oh yeah, And as we record this and as you
(03:39):
listen to it, if you're listening to it when it
first came out, it's October, Happy Halloween, I know, my
favorite time. It's October one. Actually, the day we're recording this,
and I'm already like, should I get a pumpkin? No?
I was trying to get a pumpkin two weeks ago
and told someone told me no, like at the story
because they were there and I liked little mini pumpkins.
I love the putting googly eyes on there, like that's
(04:03):
my Jacqueline Arns, essentially tottle many ones. And they're like, no,
I want it. What stopped me is I don't want
it to rot before Halloween. And also, uh, now that
I'm getting so many groceries at once, it was a
lot to carry. And I am someone who tries to
(04:24):
make what I don't like to go back and forth
from my car to my apartment. That's ridiculous. One trip,
one trip Annie, Yes, my, that's in your ni nickname. Yeah.
By the way, I definitely had two of my mini
pumpkins sitting on my balcony for two years. Wow. And
they didn't die. They didn't the last time. Actually, producer
(04:48):
Andrew was here over the house, so this was a
while ago, um over here and he and my partner
went out and they're like, what is this? And one
had slowly started to decay and the other one was okay,
but I think they it had gotten stuck to the
railing um and when they took it off, they threw
(05:09):
it into the yard because you know, that's what you
do with Gord's right, and apparently was disgusting, Like the
inside of it was really gross, but it was intact. Wow,
that's a shame. It was almost a part of your apartment.
Used it kind of did grow into my apartment. And
look what you did, y'all ruined my life. Well Happy Halloween, yes, yes,
happy Halloween. Um. So to the topic at hand, people
(05:33):
and particularly dudes, I would say I've been afraid of
women's bodies and their periods forever um throughout history, periods
have been viewed as a mark of womanhood or something
shameful and even evil, something that you hide. Some stories
believe a few religions may have developed in part due
to disgust and fear around periods. Numerous superstitions about periods
(05:56):
have sprung up all over the world, like don't bake
bread while you're your period, don't go to a funeral
on your period, don't call them in on the phone
on your period, heaven forbid, As well as etiquette rules
often preventing girls and women from interacting with boys and
men during menstruation, which I thought was when I think
about that, that's so interesting to me. It's like this
(06:19):
passing of sin I don't know. Um. And there is
also menophobia, which is legit phobia, fear of periods, um.
And just the fact that we call it the curse,
which I will say is kind of jokingly been reclaimed
I feel like in a lot of spaces, But uh,
that wasn't always the case. Well, and like I said,
in my little generation, it was blooming womanhood. Yeah, you bloomed.
(06:45):
Oh wow, I never ever encountered. It's fascinating to me
when you say you saw like these positive are like
humorous perhaps in this better word depictions. I never it
was always a bad thing to me. I've only seen
it as a bad thing. As as as I was
researching this, I was trying to think of one example
where it wasn't portrayed is just like terribly negative or
(07:09):
something to fear. And I think it's also the whole
like positive or the comedy wasn't necessarily just a positive.
It was literally turning in sexualizing and adulting, making a
child an adult by a marker which you are nine,
you are not a woman, but they would say that
you are now becoming a woman. Um me at twelve,
who's still you know, a little older. That is not
(07:31):
the age of becoming a woman. But that's absolutely a
backtrack idea of women getting birth and when they are
able to mate and so therefore sold off to you
are now able to have babies, You've reached adulthood. Here
you go. So it's not necessarily it's like the reclaiming,
but it is this backwards idea of why we were
called to me being a woman and being now seen
(07:52):
sexual because we've become able to be impregnated essentially, So
it's a positive, but a negative but a negative well,
and I think that's a lot of our tension around it.
We're going to talk about that a little bit more,
but kind of this tension of we have called it's
for so long a mark of womanhood but in times
like with me, I was nine, clearly not right, but
(08:13):
there's like this idea is still there. Um And I
do want to say, like we're not obviously going into
a history of people's views on periods, and there's been
several episodes past host have done on like superstitions around
periods or history of our our beliefs around them, and
there are some cultures where the period is celebrated. Um.
(08:37):
So I just I want to put that out there.
But today, because we're focusing on like the horror movie
aspect of it, Um, We're not going to do an
exhaustive history, but that that does exist, like it's not
so feared everywhere, um, but going back to when it
was feared of In Jewish tradition, the blame for the
(08:58):
curse and the less fun aspects of childbirth less than fun,
shall we say, are placed solely on Eve's shoulders. Of course,
the Talmud has this dare warning if an instrument woman
passes between two men, if it is at the beginning
of her mincies, she will slay one of them, and
if it is at the end of her mincies, she
(09:18):
will cause strife between them. Oh damn. If I've had
that much power to start walking in between some chosen
then can you imagine like men scattering like I would
just screaming the whole time I'm menstrating, and then try
to go away between all men part partying like a wave,
and then like what them shouting what part of period
(09:40):
is she on? Where are you? You will never know?
Fear me right. So meanwhile, Libert because describes periods as
ritual impurity, labeling the minstrating women as impure and anyone
or anything that touches her unclean until the evening comes,
which is hilarious to this like time frame of when
(10:00):
this could be. So not only is this girl or
woman on her period impure, that impurity was believed to
be transferable by touch. So this is the beginning of
like a zombie apocalypse is actually the period. Yeah, you
know what, it's bad luck. Our modern reaction to it
is enlightening in a way because in theory, like we're
(10:22):
acting as though this is a great power, which is
fun to imagine, and people were running from as afraid.
But at this time I imagine women were afraid of
this too, and that it's like you don't want to
cause strife between men, like heaven forbid, and you don't
want a man to strike himself down. Not that there
weren't women. I'm sure that did okay with it, Yeah,
but I know that it was not just isolated to men,
(10:45):
that women were afraid to well. Also that also brings
on a bigger shame factor. And if you cause us
are you or which are you? Like? Impure? Who are you?
And so just having a period says you're impures as
you're sinful. So of course as that shape level to
that as well. Well, it's really insidious when you think
about it, because it's basically saying, these two men getting
(11:07):
a fight, blame that woman if she's menstruating, right, um,
never holding man accountable for their actions as per usual.
So many religious scripts prohibit sex during periods and also
recommend and cleansing bath to wash off the impurity once
the period is over. And by the way, that still
holds true today. I know a lot of people kind
(11:30):
of holds to that you're not supposed to be having sex.
I was actually taught that as a kid, that it
was biblical then not half sex, and that it was
imperio to have sex during periods, And even in my mind,
there's this whole level of like, oh, that's kind of gross. Wow, see,
I just kind of assumed you wouldn't. And then I
mentioned that to a good friend of mine in college
and she's like, well, I've heard it's actually really great.
(11:51):
It's like, oh, hormones are all over the place at
this time. We know this. But yeah, actually I was
told that as a kid, um, and I don't even
I think it was one of my female relatives who
told me, yeah, it's gross, you shouldn't do this, as
she was an adult believing this. So I was like, okay, Um,
in some sex of Orthodox Christianity still forbidministrating women from
(12:13):
receiving communions. I can't imagine that conversation to come be like, ah,
I can't take part in communion today Church, I'm on
my period. That does sound so again shameful of Like
people are going to know that you're on your period, right,
you have to tell assume that you are, Like, you
don't have to say a thing the fact that you
(12:34):
didn't take communion or either you're a devil worshiper or
you're on your period or both or both, which is
so during Ramadan, however, women on their period may be
exempt from fast things, so that seems at least reasonable. Yeah, yeah,
and again, like it's so much we could talk about
if we were specifically focusing on all of the ways
(12:58):
around the world the period is viewed and treated. Um,
But we are talking about horror movies today. UM. And
we've talked about before how horror movies are a really
great reflection of what scares us as a society, and
clearly we're afraid periods. Um so much so it almost
(13:18):
qualifies as its own horror subgenre that is called supernatural
period horror. That's perfect, which I mentioned to a guy
friend the other day and he was like, are you
talking about like a horror movie taking place in like
the six And I was like, no, but I see
how you thought that. I don't see how you thought that,
like periods got exactly exactly. So Emily Soderback has actually
(13:43):
written a whole piece on this called Ghoul You'll be
a Woman Soon, Supernatural Puberty and the Horror of periods,
And she goes a step further in this article and
argues that horror the genre at large is intrinsically tied
to women, whether we're talking about the final girl, the
pregnant body as a vessel for evil, like the monstrous
(14:03):
feminine rape. Revenge movies are teenage girls having their first
period and just reeking havoc, usually supernatural havoc. Yes, And
actually I'm really glad I found this piece because it
has that really resonated with me, and I never really
considered it before, but now I do think a lot
(14:25):
of horror is about is intrinsically linked to women. I
think that was very astute, uh, and it is very telling,
as we were talking about earlier, that we rarely see
depictions of periods in our media, especially in my case.
I literally cannot think of a positive thing I've seen
about the period. But when we do, like most often,
it is as a construct in a horror movie. Right,
(14:49):
So I think I must have watched a lot more
like coming of age movies, and of course a lot
of it was more horror, like, oh my god, this happened. Um.
I also one of my favorite book, Judy Bloom just
as long as We're Together. Had a seen him that
as well, and it was fairly positive, but it definitely
makes out to be she became womanly overnight, she grew
heads and breasts, and I'm like, how's that possible? But
(15:11):
back to this, so the big question why are we
so afraid of them? And obviously our emotions come on,
we're so emotional. Donald Trump saying blood was coming out
of Megan Kelly's oh you know, wherever when she wasn't
nice to him. Was a great example of dude, how
old are you? And are you kidding me? And just
(15:32):
pretty much saying giving the excuse, oh, she's on her
period to dismiss someone's emotions so annoying. Yes, And I've
seen that played on TV shows repeatedly. Yeah, at that
come of the month. Yeah, Oh that's right up there
with one of my biggest pet peeves would take a
chill pill. Never ever say that to me. That's the
(15:54):
opposite of a chill pill. Is gonna happen? Damn, I'm
not to remember that. Don't say this to Annie. Take
a note, don't say during our games and battles? Got it?
This is and and the whole like our e P. M.
Messing is at that time of the month. Is that
the equivalent? Right? And I remember when I read it
was for this show. There was a study that came
(16:14):
out that said, actually, there's not actually, there's not really
that much definitive proof that you become more emotional right
during your period. It might be that you're cranky because
you have cramps and you don't feel well, but it's
not like a switch for some women. Maybe for some
(16:34):
women definitely, But for most women, it's not like some
switch goes off and all of a sudden you're like
a harpy. It's just maybe you're uncomfortable and tired, you
become a shrill harpy. Yeah. I think that's one of
the perfect examples, because there are people who suffer from
PMDD and that's a whole hormonal thing that affectual life,
not just on your period. And we know that. But
(16:55):
like I, I will say I definitely had really strong
PMS and really like strong symptoms to the point that,
you know, a younger, I was looking at birth control
pill because it was affected my life so often, like
every month it did. But at the same time, it's
not to the point that I couldn't control myself. I
didn't grow things at people, right whatever. However, back to
(17:19):
the emotions parts. Social media platforms since doing images of
period blood as we know, and the hashtag period pride response,
which some also see as problematic. So it is a
back and forth conversation because I I as someone who
was born in the eighties and growing up in the
country and trying to figure all of this out because
like I said, I did see positive influences of that,
(17:39):
but also this like shame factor of that hiding the tampon,
you know, making sure no one saw if you led
on yourself, you know, all those things. Yeah, not having
my male counterpart or my brothers were carrying tampons for me,
you know. Oh well, how dare you even being down
that aisle bring some shame. Um. But it does seem
like the over exemplify paition of hey, I'm gonna just
(18:01):
wear blood everywhere, So like it has to something like
I do get a little squeamish about that. And I
don't know if that's more so of my in like
ingrained this is shameful, or just like this doesn't compute.
That's something that I have shown, you know, where they
show off, you know. So it is like this back
and forth of like huh, And I think people in
my generation have that same kind of idea of like, yes,
(18:24):
I'm not going to be hiding it, but at the
same time, I don't want to wear my blood so
everyone can see. Yeah. Um yeah. And just also the
conversation around you know, people who don't have periods, who
are women. Uh. That was a couple of years ago
when I remember this really being a big thing, um,
(18:44):
And I remember pieces of that conversation. So I think
it's great that to have that conversation that some people
are like, no, my period, and I'm proud of it.
I'm all for that. But yes, always good to have
those and make sure we're being inclusive when we talked
about things like that. Um. So another reason I think
we're afraid of periods is religion. And I have been
(19:10):
watching a lot of horror movies lately, a lot, a lot,
a lot, and I've realized a lot of our horror
movies are religious in nature. And I know we've talked
about this Inmantha. I don't know if I've ever talked
about on the show. But when I was young, I
was very very religious. I think I have talked about
and I would lie awake at I think I'm going
to burn and hill And then I was a bad person.
(19:30):
And I can see especially and when we're talking about
older times and religion back then, when you didn't understand
the world around you, um, and you thought the period
of your period was shameful because it's in like religious text,
(19:52):
then it would be terrifying. Yeah, and you like the
shame It's one thing like the shame I feel. But
back when I was a kid, if I had thought
like this was some sign of my impurity and I
was going to burn in hell because of it. Yeah, well,
so it also puts this responsibility of my duty as
(20:13):
a woman who has now bled is to our children,
because this is the only reason for it. If I'm
not using that ability, I'm sending which has been that
old school text in religion as well, and and what
providing for a family looks like for women. But yeah,
absolutely carry the movie, which we'll talk about in a
little bit, is the epitome of that whole idea. Oh yeah.
(20:38):
Another reason I think people are fade of furious are
we are afraid of women's bodies. Um. We see this
with women's bodies as a vessel for evil, the bad
seed Satan himself, like Rosemary's baby, like being the mother
of that. And I was thinking about that and more
in depth, and it's almost always it comes down to
(20:59):
blaming the mother in these movies, or blaming the woman
in these movies. Um, but often the mother, like especially
in serial killer movies, it's like, oh, yeah, it was
the mom, she should have done X Y Z um.
And then I was like, well, the final Girl might
be an exemption, but I feel like the final Girl
(21:20):
is here's this pure, innocent woman who suffers and eventually
a man will get I don't know, like she's being
preserved for a man at a future dates, which her precious,
precious virginity, um, which is why she survives, is being
(21:41):
preserved for some future man. Well, we know the sequels
that come out. It's always never good and it's a
turn for hard trying to be a woman at this point. Yeah, uh,
you know, there's also this fear around the transition into womanhood. Um,
we're very scared of young women, girls, young girls becoming
young women. We literally are afraid of fan girling. I
(22:03):
think about that article I read all the time where
the seemed legitimate. The author was like this terrifying trend
among young girls where they screamed together and lust after
this man's calm down. Not only do we not understand,
thanks to a long lack of science, uh, changing hormones
(22:24):
our bodies, Well, we also don't understand like changing emotions.
We're afraid of it, um. And we see this in
so many movies, and I know we've been talking about
this a lot lately. But I think this is in
part why all those father daughter post apocalyptic stories exist.
What could be more difficult and terrifying and altruistic than
a man trying to understand a teenage girl. What are
(22:47):
zombies compared to that? I mean the teenage boys you know,
talk about porn, great, talk about uh, tell them how
to fix the car? And teenage girls though, oh no,
oh no, what do I do? She would never want
to learn how to fix a car. Never, right, She
doesn't want to be a part of my life. He
doesn't want to watch sports with me. And that is
a very very generalization of men. I know, yeah, absolutely,
(23:11):
but I mean that's the crop to um. And then yeah,
like we said earlier that the struggle between this idea
that a period makes a girl a woman, while often
still in a young child's body, which is unsettling, it
can be um. At the same time, this threatens the
patriarchal order of things. If the young girl is becoming
(23:32):
an independent from her father, no longer needing him, Oh well,
that's scary. She's independent? What um? And that might also
be why we see this father daughter dynamic or our
stand in father figure protector in so much media. And
I know we talked in Survival Horror about this, but essentially,
like you can have a a strong female character and
(23:56):
quotes that's really awesome, but there's almost always a stronger
male character that's protecting her. Yeah, the disillusion father who
kind of just walks away. Yeah. Yeah, and it's a
marker of how good he is if he stays around
and protects her. Right. Yeah, but okay, we do have
(24:19):
some examples for you. But first we're gonna fause for
a quick break for word from a sponsor, and we're back,
Thank you, sponsor, and we're back with Carry, the iconic
(24:43):
religious horror movie. Yes, of course, this is probably one
of the most iconic examples of what we're talking about. Um,
So this is Stephen King's Carry. The book came out
in ninety four and the movie, directed by Brian to Palmer,
debut two years later in nineteen. Sissy SpaceX start as Carrie.
(25:05):
It was a shy, abused high school girl who was
bullied by both her religious mother and her classmates. And
when she gets her first period and the gym locker
room or classmates mocker, they throw tampons at her. They
shall plug it up. And Carrie, who has never had
any of this explained to her, believed she was dying.
Her mom h called it a sign of quote sinful
(25:28):
sexual fantasies. And this all happens to coincide with Carrie
developing powers, of course, delkinetic powers, which are symbolic of
her becoming a woman. When a cool prank leaves her
daust in pigs blood, representing her period, she turns those
powers indiscriminately on all in her path in a wave
(25:49):
of terrifying supernatural violence as her mom washes the blood
off her. In the end, she reveals Carrie was the
product of a rape that her mother quote in Joe
Voyd and that sin never dies. Yeah. Uh. And I've
never seen this movie when I wrote it, and I
still haven't seen it, uh, much to Samantha's uh chagrin,
(26:13):
But I did. I knew most of this from memory,
so it really left a mark on our cultural psyche,
and it received several awards. It received several nominations and
is regularly included on list of the top horror movies
of all time. Right, um, yes, I was very sad
to hear you say. Someone who loves horror movies have
(26:35):
not seen such an iconic movie. Um, you did say
you read the book, so I'll allow it. But this
is definitely of a different beast. Not only do you
have an innocent girl, and does I think she would
be called a cinnamon roll with the S I N
in a M O N. Yes, we learned this. I
learned this term because of Annie or parked cinnamon roll.
(26:56):
You're welcome that develops dark tele netic powers. But a
young girl who destroys an entire community without hesitating. Um,
she goes from victim and turns into a psycho bitch trope.
But there is a second one as well, which I've
never seen. Um, but Annie, So this is awesome. Part
(27:18):
of Savantha's iron was seeing the second carry carry to
rage unleashed. I think I have not seen the first one. Um.
I watched Carrie two for the soundtrack, which is just
as embarrassing as it sounds. Um. I still have the soundtrack.
All I remember is like she was in a pretty
(27:38):
red dress at the end and some guy got there's
a lot of fire and some guy was like in
a pool and that you know, the sheet came over
it and couldn't get out, and it really freaked me out.
That's bad, Yeah for sure. Yeah, definitely fire cleansing. Like,
there's a lot of symbolism within the story. We know
this between the blood and the fire and um, the
(28:00):
crucifixes as well as crucifying her mother essentially. So if
you haven't seen this movie already, why haven't you? Annie, Um,
But unless you don't like horror, which is fine. Also, yes,
we're talking about nineteen seventies movies, so spoiler alert, I
guess if you have it heard about it at all.
(28:21):
But yeah, the whole idea with this is so symbolic
throughout it's pretty much hit you over the head. But
he does turn what would be the innocent victim into
a very quickly evil woman. Um. Even the jump scared
at the end, which was fairly new that could jump scare.
So it got me too when I watched it as
a kid, I think it's at a slumber party, typical
slumber part. Oh my god, it's such a girl's tripe
(28:42):
right there, um and scared the hell out of us.
I think all the little girls scream. We were in
seventh grade, start seventh grade, we look because of the
perfect jump scare. Um, but you do it has this
whole thing if you have characters who are sympathetic and
are really caring and in the end really hope for
the best for her and are so excited for her.
(29:04):
However she does not care. Everyone must go. It kind
of has that this is everyone's fault, which again kind
of turns your view on her yea, even when she
does go home to her mom begging for some sympathy
and love and ends up getting you know, almost murdered
by her mother. And so it does have this whole
level of conversation of how do we see these girls
(29:25):
wire periods, the evil that comes upon us, and then
who in the end is actually innocent? Yeah, and I
mean clearly we're I don't know if oversimplifying is the
right word, because there is a lot going on, you know.
Yet you do have that religious aspect. You do have
to blame the mother aspect um, and like her becoming
(29:49):
you can read it as she becomes a woman and
then yeah, it's a traumatic experience and then unleash just
this hell within her. But she also was abused, so
there's that aspect of it too. Um. And when I
was telling Samantha why I haven't seen it I do
(30:11):
have an anxiety, like a legit anxiety around this kind
of horror that's like a bullying abuse, religion, and like womanhood.
Because we talked about several movies you hadn't seen that
are more of the psycho bitch trope and realizing you've
not seen any of those even though they are considered
horror except for one Yep, which I'm still confused by.
(30:34):
I will say that, um, but it has a whole
different layer of your involving your psyche and your your
darkest fears or even personal experiences, which makes a whole
lot more sense of like, oh, I get it, this
is why you Because I think Hush was one of them.
We don't we're not going to talk about that, but
it's definitely like a murder thriller, uh, stalker ish movie
(30:54):
which you don't really know much of this woman's background
that you just watch it in real time essentially. So yeah,
but stuff like that you don't watch in the in
the strangers, which all have that fear, which in your mind,
some of these are based on true stories. So it
was like this really good happen. Yeah, I think that's
what gets me. I think I really like I like
the clear Oh no, this is not the real world stuff,
(31:19):
not that I haven't watched plenty of those, but I
think these are because I have these anxieties. They're so
close to home. Yeah. Um, But speaking of like plague
on your Worst Fears and Stephen King, I will say
this is probably one of my biggest fears and the
reason why I am afraid of freaking clowns as because
of this movie. So Stephen Keane tackles the fears of
girls becoming women and the peer that comes with it.
(31:41):
Is it? That's so you have it as a conversation
about women in periods. And I didn't really think about
it because I don't know if I've ever finished the
early series, like when it came out in the early nineties,
because I couldn't get past the clown. Tim Curry is
the freaking clown and those teeth. But in the newer
(32:02):
movies I did see it in which they do talk
about the main female character in her period and her
becoming a woman and then the relationship she has with
her father. So in the most recent movie, Beverley Marsh's
greatest fear is that very thing and the pain it
brought her via the sexual abuse from her father when
he discovered she had her first period, he said she
(32:22):
was a woman now and very creepily sniffed her hair.
Is a little different in the book, which I've never
read the book either, again, clown in the story, I
was over it um And there's even a scene where
she stares at a wall of tampons and pass out
of pharmacy before choosing one, and then gets leered at
by the older male pharmacist when she checks out again.
(32:42):
This is whole like, yeah, yeah, it's not just the
fact that there's this almost invitation of like I'm sexual now,
which is so untrue. I've definitely had this exact moment
at the store where it's a male cashier and they're
checking you out and then give you this look like
yeah yeah gross yeah. And then one seeing Beverly is
(33:04):
in the bathroom, which was very horrifying, Uh, leaning over
a sink with blood explodes out from the drain, completely
drenching her and the bathroom in crimson blood. And honestly,
I feel like I've seen scenes like this a lot
growing up, because I watched a lot of horror movies
and it never clicked with me. What that truly was representing,
and like I thought people just had a phobia about blood,
(33:25):
which is true, but which is part of this whole thing, right. Yeah, absolutely,
they're like, oh God, you're bleeding and there's no cause
for it. This seems unnatural because we see that as
a warning of something bad is happening to your body.
This is repeated in chapter two, by the way, I
have not seen that win Um. When a now adult
Beverly is trapped in the bathroom stall, it's blood gushes
(33:46):
and rises around her, her father and the pharmacists trying
to break in. Yeah. So if if somehow you're not
familiar with it, it is this alien entity that transforms
into your greatest fear, feeds on your fear. So and
at the end of chapter chapter two, they're all having
to face their greatest fears and and so now Beverly
(34:07):
as an adult, this is just blood all around her,
and and these men who kind of tormented her, made
her this object of sexual fantasy when she was young,
are trying to get into the bathroom stall. Uh And
you know, apparently Stephen kings some kind of uh age.
I guess he likes coming of age things in general,
(34:29):
and for coming about stand by Me as one of
his like sweet movies about boys coming together, but then
also death. Yeah, but it's just interesting that his these
examples do involve the period so much. And then you
know The Shining Everybody, which notoriously he hates that movie.
But um, that scene with all the blood coming out,
(34:49):
everybody uses that as a joking gift, like my periods here. Right. Yeah,
but let's move on from Stephen King from now and
talking about Ginger Snaps, which is a movie I love.
I love that movie. Yeah. So this was made in
two thousand and It marries a teenage girl getting her
first period with her becoming a werewolf. Um like getting
(35:10):
hair and new places, acting out of character, more volatile,
painting her sexuality in a very monstrous way. But it's
very self aware. It's on purpose. Um, it's definitely commenting
on this whole thing of when you get your period,
when you become a woman, Um, then you become this monster,
like a werewolf. The movie's tagline is they don't call
(35:33):
it the curse for nothing. So have you seen any
of the sequels? No? Yeah, I haven't either. I haven't either.
I'm just afraid of sequels. Which is why I'm always
horrified when people watch it out of sink, because it's
not as good typically sometimes sometimes there You know, what
I think I feel like in trilogy is the second
one is better usually but not planned. Yes, I feel
(35:57):
like it's a plan more likely however, But yeah, the
main character of this movie is actually in the Netflix
series about Werewolves, which is yes, yes, I thought that
was hilarious because I've not seen her much recently in
many things, but people who are very, very iconic and
noticeable into me in the whole like loving horror movie.
(36:19):
She's iconic, the young girl. She plays this character as
a witch. She's not aware wolf. But the fact that
she's in this movie always like tongue in cheek type
of thing, may not be on purpose whatever, But if
you haven't seen this movie, you absolutely should. And if
you like horror movies, um, then yes. The crash we
was really funny because we had our listener cat hey
(36:41):
cat Uh send us a link on Twitter about the
remake of the Craft, and as soon as she did that,
I think it was a few days later that the
trailer came out and of course one of the big scenes,
it is a period scene which is not really like
it's I don't know if it's part of the movie
obviously we haven't seen it, but this was definitely not
a part of the original craft. UM. So we it
(37:01):
was interesting, So shout out to that. And I wonder
what this is synchronous? It was odd. We were like
literally researching this every night happened. Um. So we do
have a little bit more for you listeners, but first
we have one more quick break for word from our
sponsor and we're back. Thank you sponsor. Um And we
(37:35):
just wanted to wrap this up. I suppose. So when
I was thinking about this doing the research, I do
think horror movies at large. Um, when I when I
joke about semi joke about how they're all about mail
writer's fears around periods, I think what I actually mean
is they're all about mail writer's fears. You know, all
(37:58):
of our fears around women and periods have often been
symbolic of womanhood. Now again, I know we've been hopefully
in what was clearly vocal air quotes, saying becoming a woman. Right,
we've been saying that throughout But again, you don't have
to have periods to become a woman. But it is
something that we've seen in our culture and in our
(38:20):
media a lot um And I do think the horror
genre is intrinsically tied to women and our years around it.
That just makes sense to me. I don't think i'd
ever really put it together, like I always said, like
this genre is about final girls, and this genre is
about pregnant women giving birth to evil babies. And you know,
I never thought about, in like the whole scheme of horror,
(38:43):
how much of it is about women girls, Because yeah,
you and I have had a mania conversations because I
love those movies about you know, hauntings and you know,
possessions and all of that, because it's nice little scare.
But when you look at a chunk of it has
to do with, uh, a mother who's lost a baby
who's haunting someone, or a mother who didn't who didn't
(39:03):
want children and sacrifice them, is haunting someone. And it's
always the mother. Is always the mother doing something, whether
it's going after the mother or the mother is going
after a child. It's very link, but it is is
that whole overall. It's not just one generation of things,
it's all the things. So when we talk about um
and then we're going too soon. We're talking about the fatals.
That's the single woman. Oh my god, be terrified and terrifying.
(39:28):
I strike so much fear in the hearts of men.
Um and all of the points that we've discussed in
our previous episodes on horror movies. There there's been this
tension of badass final girls are or you know, even
in video games, we're talking about badass protagonist that you
can play, but a lot of the messaging behind them
(39:51):
is still very rigid and sexist. Um. These pieces of
entertainment are primarily created by men, not at all, not
all of them. There are some amazing women creating in
this genre and also primarily created for the male gaze. Um.
So it's empowering in a way that women's bodies do
inspire so much fear. But that's only because women's and
(40:13):
girls bodies have been so stigmatized throughout history. Um. And
when you think about how these movies and pieces of
entertainment do reflect real world fears, largely male fears that
still impact in shame so many women to this day
that still keep wind marginalized, it's a different story. Yeah, Um,
(40:35):
you just have to I don't know, I've always had
that weird tension, especially when I did one of the
first episodes I did on the show is about Final Girls,
and I got so torn about it because you are
getting this messaging that you know, to survive, to be
a good woman, you have to be a virgin and
like not smoke, not drink, and be white and brown hair.
And you know, they survived, but they survived in this
(40:57):
like patriarchal definition, and they're terrorized for it, Like they're
tormented for it, and they lose everything for it. Um
And another piece of this I do think is not
even taking the time to understand women, especially if they
don't fit the demure caricature we're supposed to fit in.
Like again, you know, she's a mad at mission must
(41:18):
be possessed or on her period. Um. Any behavior that's
not fitting into this patriarchal like gender conforming box is
threatening and scary and something to be punished, because horror
movies are largely about punishment for breaking societal norms. Um
are in this case and the one we're talking about today,
(41:38):
for being a woman at all, or is a cautionary
tale of if you do this, this is what happens.
To you. Yeah. Yeah, Um, your sexuality will get you
punished unless you do it in the right quote unquote way. Yeah. Um. So,
I guess we have a lot to say about horror
(41:58):
movies and periods, but that's well. Will stop for today
for today, but continue on because it is October and
we love these themes. Yes, yes, yes we do. Um,
and I know there's so many other movies we could
have talked about, so if we missed one, please send
it our way. UM. You can email us at stuff Medio,
mom Stuff at i heart media dot com. You can
(42:20):
find us on Instagram at stuff I've Never Told You
or on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always
to our super producer Andrew Howard, and thanks to you
for listening. Stuff I Never Told You is the production
of iHeart Radio. For more podcast from I Heart Radio,
visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows.
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to stuff
I never told your production of I Heeart Radio. For
today's question, I'm asking one that I guess I kind
of talked about a little bit before. But do you
remember when you got your first period? I do. I
(00:27):
was twelve years old, and I had been excited about it,
mainly because I've watched way too many sitcoms about how
this is a celebration of womanhood and how um this
is such a big deal, and I'm thinking my mom's
gonna at least give me, like I don't know, a
present of sores that tells me about it. Instead, I
(00:47):
got sent to my nurse offas who handed me a pad.
Who I went home and my mom was like, okay,
well I'll buy you some pads, and that was the
end of the story. I was like, cool, cool, cool.
And then to that I probably had some of the
worst cramps ever and I hated everything everything. Yeah, and
(01:08):
it took a little while before I started wearing tampons,
but man, those ads were so uncomfortable and gross. Yeah. Yeah,
I was nine and we were going we were going
to a field trip to the Fox Theater. Yeah, yeah,
(01:29):
to go see the nutcracker, and I was very, very excited,
and my teacher came up to me and put her
hand on my shoulder and like whispered in my ear, honey,
I have to talk to you. And um, it was
as though someone had died, like she was breaking the
news that someone had died, and I had to go home,
and like I was wearing khakis, so it was really
(01:51):
obvious blood stain. And yeah, I know I've talked about
it before, but I thought you only got it once.
So I was like it hurt and I had horrible cramps.
I but I got to stay home and I got RBS.
I remember getting Arby's. Nice. I did have a celebration,
that's nice. Yeah, And I you know, I didn't realize
it was a real thing. And I did do the
thing where I thought I was dying at first. Um,
(02:13):
but then it was explained to me. So the second
time I got my period was much much worse when
I realized, oh this is oh right, Oh no, right,
why why is he continuing to happen? Yeah? Um, but yeah,
today we are finally talking about something I've I've wanted
to talk about forever. It's happening and we're talking about
(02:36):
my theory that almost all horror movies are secretly about
male writers and their fear of female bodies in particular periods. Yes,
I guess this is kind of like a two parter
because the next one is kind of on that same
idea at least like reality. Yeah, yeah, I had a
real revelation researching this that it's you know, it's female bodies,
(02:57):
but it's also just women horror. The genre is almost
all about our fear of women. I mean that's fair. Yeah,
they should be, damn right. Um. But yes, note, obviously
not all women have periods, and we are being hearted
about this. And again, not all people who have periods
(03:19):
are women, and we acknowledge that, and that is a thing,
and it is all true, and we understand and respect that.
But for this specifically, we are talking about women's bodies,
especially when we talk about the old school horror movies,
who really, really, really really really we're afraid of women.
Oh yeah, And as we record this and as you
(03:39):
listen to it, if you're listening to it when it
first came out, it's October, Happy Halloween, I know, my
favorite time. It's October one. Actually, the day we're recording this,
and I'm already like, should I get a pumpkin? No?
I was trying to get a pumpkin two weeks ago
and told someone told me no, like at the story
because they were there and I liked little mini pumpkins.
I love the putting googly eyes on there, like that's
(04:03):
my Jacqueline Arns, essentially tottle many ones. And they're like, no,
I want it. What stopped me is I don't want
it to rot before Halloween. And also, uh, now that
I'm getting so many groceries at once, it was a
lot to carry. And I am someone who tries to
(04:24):
make what I don't like to go back and forth
from my car to my apartment. That's ridiculous. One trip,
one trip Annie, Yes, my, that's in your ni nickname. Yeah.
By the way, I definitely had two of my mini
pumpkins sitting on my balcony for two years. Wow. And
they didn't die. They didn't the last time. Actually, producer
(04:48):
Andrew was here over the house, so this was a
while ago, um over here and he and my partner
went out and they're like, what is this? And one
had slowly started to decay and the other one was okay,
but I think they it had gotten stuck to the
railing um and when they took it off, they threw
(05:09):
it into the yard because you know, that's what you
do with Gord's right, and apparently was disgusting, Like the
inside of it was really gross, but it was intact. Wow,
that's a shame. It was almost a part of your apartment.
Used it kind of did grow into my apartment. And
look what you did, y'all ruined my life. Well Happy Halloween, yes, yes,
happy Halloween. Um. So to the topic at hand, people
(05:33):
and particularly dudes, I would say I've been afraid of
women's bodies and their periods forever um throughout history, periods
have been viewed as a mark of womanhood or something
shameful and even evil, something that you hide. Some stories
believe a few religions may have developed in part due
to disgust and fear around periods. Numerous superstitions about periods
(05:56):
have sprung up all over the world, like don't bake
bread while you're your period, don't go to a funeral
on your period, don't call them in on the phone
on your period, heaven forbid, As well as etiquette rules
often preventing girls and women from interacting with boys and
men during menstruation, which I thought was when I think
about that, that's so interesting to me. It's like this
(06:19):
passing of sin I don't know. Um. And there is
also menophobia, which is legit phobia, fear of periods, um.
And just the fact that we call it the curse,
which I will say is kind of jokingly been reclaimed
I feel like in a lot of spaces, But uh,
that wasn't always the case. Well, and like I said,
in my little generation, it was blooming womanhood. Yeah, you bloomed.
(06:45):
Oh wow, I never ever encountered. It's fascinating to me
when you say you saw like these positive are like
humorous perhaps in this better word depictions. I never it
was always a bad thing to me. I've only seen
it as a bad thing. As as as I was
researching this, I was trying to think of one example
where it wasn't portrayed is just like terribly negative or
(07:09):
something to fear. And I think it's also the whole
like positive or the comedy wasn't necessarily just a positive.
It was literally turning in sexualizing and adulting, making a
child an adult by a marker which you are nine,
you are not a woman, but they would say that
you are now becoming a woman. Um me at twelve,
who's still you know, a little older. That is not
(07:31):
the age of becoming a woman. But that's absolutely a
backtrack idea of women getting birth and when they are
able to mate and so therefore sold off to you
are now able to have babies, You've reached adulthood. Here
you go. So it's not necessarily it's like the reclaiming,
but it is this backwards idea of why we were
called to me being a woman and being now seen
(07:52):
sexual because we've become able to be impregnated essentially, So
it's a positive, but a negative but a negative well,
and I think that's a lot of our tension around it.
We're going to talk about that a little bit more,
but kind of this tension of we have called it's
for so long a mark of womanhood but in times
like with me, I was nine, clearly not right, but
(08:13):
there's like this idea is still there. Um And I
do want to say, like we're not obviously going into
a history of people's views on periods, and there's been
several episodes past host have done on like superstitions around
periods or history of our our beliefs around them, and
there are some cultures where the period is celebrated. Um.
(08:37):
So I just I want to put that out there.
But today, because we're focusing on like the horror movie
aspect of it, Um, We're not going to do an
exhaustive history, but that that does exist, like it's not
so feared everywhere, um, but going back to when it
was feared of In Jewish tradition, the blame for the
(08:58):
curse and the less fun aspects of childbirth less than fun,
shall we say, are placed solely on Eve's shoulders. Of course,
the Talmud has this dare warning if an instrument woman
passes between two men, if it is at the beginning
of her mincies, she will slay one of them, and
if it is at the end of her mincies, she
(09:18):
will cause strife between them. Oh damn. If I've had
that much power to start walking in between some chosen
then can you imagine like men scattering like I would
just screaming the whole time I'm menstrating, and then try
to go away between all men part partying like a wave,
and then like what them shouting what part of period
(09:40):
is she on? Where are you? You will never know?
Fear me right. So meanwhile, Libert because describes periods as
ritual impurity, labeling the minstrating women as impure and anyone
or anything that touches her unclean until the evening comes,
which is hilarious to this like time frame of when
(10:00):
this could be. So not only is this girl or
woman on her period impure, that impurity was believed to
be transferable by touch. So this is the beginning of
like a zombie apocalypse is actually the period. Yeah, you
know what, it's bad luck. Our modern reaction to it
is enlightening in a way because in theory, like we're
(10:22):
acting as though this is a great power, which is
fun to imagine, and people were running from as afraid.
But at this time I imagine women were afraid of
this too, and that it's like you don't want to
cause strife between men, like heaven forbid, and you don't
want a man to strike himself down. Not that there
weren't women. I'm sure that did okay with it, Yeah,
but I know that it was not just isolated to men,
(10:45):
that women were afraid to well. Also that also brings
on a bigger shame factor. And if you cause us
are you or which are you? Like? Impure? Who are you?
And so just having a period says you're impures as
you're sinful. So of course as that shape level to
that as well. Well, it's really insidious when you think
about it, because it's basically saying, these two men getting
(11:07):
a fight, blame that woman if she's menstruating, right, um,
never holding man accountable for their actions as per usual.
So many religious scripts prohibit sex during periods and also
recommend and cleansing bath to wash off the impurity once
the period is over. And by the way, that still
holds true today. I know a lot of people kind
(11:30):
of holds to that you're not supposed to be having sex.
I was actually taught that as a kid, that it
was biblical then not half sex, and that it was
imperio to have sex during periods, And even in my mind,
there's this whole level of like, oh, that's kind of gross. Wow, see,
I just kind of assumed you wouldn't. And then I
mentioned that to a good friend of mine in college
and she's like, well, I've heard it's actually really great.
(11:51):
It's like, oh, hormones are all over the place at
this time. We know this. But yeah, actually I was
told that as a kid, um, and I don't even
I think it was one of my female relatives who
told me, yeah, it's gross, you shouldn't do this, as
she was an adult believing this. So I was like, okay, Um,
in some sex of Orthodox Christianity still forbidministrating women from
(12:13):
receiving communions. I can't imagine that conversation to come be like, ah,
I can't take part in communion today Church, I'm on
my period. That does sound so again shameful of Like
people are going to know that you're on your period, right,
you have to tell assume that you are, Like, you
don't have to say a thing the fact that you
(12:34):
didn't take communion or either you're a devil worshiper or
you're on your period or both or both, which is
so during Ramadan, however, women on their period may be
exempt from fast things, so that seems at least reasonable. Yeah, yeah,
and again, like it's so much we could talk about
if we were specifically focusing on all of the ways
(12:58):
around the world the period is viewed and treated. Um,
But we are talking about horror movies today. UM. And
we've talked about before how horror movies are a really
great reflection of what scares us as a society, and
clearly we're afraid periods. Um so much so it almost
(13:18):
qualifies as its own horror subgenre that is called supernatural
period horror. That's perfect, which I mentioned to a guy
friend the other day and he was like, are you
talking about like a horror movie taking place in like
the six And I was like, no, but I see
how you thought that. I don't see how you thought that,
like periods got exactly exactly. So Emily Soderback has actually
(13:43):
written a whole piece on this called Ghoul You'll be
a Woman Soon, Supernatural Puberty and the Horror of periods,
And she goes a step further in this article and
argues that horror the genre at large is intrinsically tied
to women, whether we're talking about the final girl, the
pregnant body as a vessel for evil, like the monstrous
(14:03):
feminine rape. Revenge movies are teenage girls having their first
period and just reeking havoc, usually supernatural havoc. Yes, And
actually I'm really glad I found this piece because it
has that really resonated with me, and I never really
considered it before, but now I do think a lot
(14:25):
of horror is about is intrinsically linked to women. I
think that was very astute, uh, and it is very telling,
as we were talking about earlier, that we rarely see
depictions of periods in our media, especially in my case.
I literally cannot think of a positive thing I've seen
about the period. But when we do, like most often,
it is as a construct in a horror movie. Right,
(14:49):
So I think I must have watched a lot more
like coming of age movies, and of course a lot
of it was more horror, like, oh my god, this happened. Um.
I also one of my favorite book, Judy Bloom just
as long as We're Together. Had a seen him that
as well, and it was fairly positive, but it definitely
makes out to be she became womanly overnight, she grew
heads and breasts, and I'm like, how's that possible? But
(15:11):
back to this, so the big question why are we
so afraid of them? And obviously our emotions come on,
we're so emotional. Donald Trump saying blood was coming out
of Megan Kelly's oh you know, wherever when she wasn't
nice to him. Was a great example of dude, how
old are you? And are you kidding me? And just
(15:32):
pretty much saying giving the excuse, oh, she's on her
period to dismiss someone's emotions so annoying. Yes, And I've
seen that played on TV shows repeatedly. Yeah, at that
come of the month. Yeah, Oh that's right up there
with one of my biggest pet peeves would take a
chill pill. Never ever say that to me. That's the
(15:54):
opposite of a chill pill. Is gonna happen? Damn, I'm
not to remember that. Don't say this to Annie. Take
a note, don't say during our games and battles? Got it?
This is and and the whole like our e P. M.
Messing is at that time of the month. Is that
the equivalent? Right? And I remember when I read it
was for this show. There was a study that came
(16:14):
out that said, actually, there's not actually, there's not really
that much definitive proof that you become more emotional right
during your period. It might be that you're cranky because
you have cramps and you don't feel well, but it's
not like a switch for some women. Maybe for some
(16:34):
women definitely, But for most women, it's not like some
switch goes off and all of a sudden you're like
a harpy. It's just maybe you're uncomfortable and tired, you
become a shrill harpy. Yeah. I think that's one of
the perfect examples, because there are people who suffer from
PMDD and that's a whole hormonal thing that affectual life,
not just on your period. And we know that. But
(16:55):
like I, I will say I definitely had really strong
PMS and really like strong symptoms to the point that,
you know, a younger, I was looking at birth control
pill because it was affected my life so often, like
every month it did. But at the same time, it's
not to the point that I couldn't control myself. I
didn't grow things at people, right whatever. However, back to
(17:19):
the emotions parts. Social media platforms since doing images of
period blood as we know, and the hashtag period pride response,
which some also see as problematic. So it is a
back and forth conversation because I I as someone who
was born in the eighties and growing up in the
country and trying to figure all of this out because
like I said, I did see positive influences of that,
(17:39):
but also this like shame factor of that hiding the tampon,
you know, making sure no one saw if you led
on yourself, you know, all those things. Yeah, not having
my male counterpart or my brothers were carrying tampons for me,
you know. Oh well, how dare you even being down
that aisle bring some shame. Um. But it does seem
like the over exemplify paition of hey, I'm gonna just
(18:01):
wear blood everywhere, So like it has to something like
I do get a little squeamish about that. And I
don't know if that's more so of my in like
ingrained this is shameful, or just like this doesn't compute.
That's something that I have shown, you know, where they
show off, you know. So it is like this back
and forth of like huh, And I think people in
my generation have that same kind of idea of like, yes,
(18:24):
I'm not going to be hiding it, but at the
same time, I don't want to wear my blood so
everyone can see. Yeah. Um yeah. And just also the
conversation around you know, people who don't have periods, who
are women. Uh. That was a couple of years ago
when I remember this really being a big thing, um,
(18:44):
And I remember pieces of that conversation. So I think
it's great that to have that conversation that some people
are like, no, my period, and I'm proud of it.
I'm all for that. But yes, always good to have
those and make sure we're being inclusive when we talked
about things like that. Um. So another reason I think
we're afraid of periods is religion. And I have been
(19:10):
watching a lot of horror movies lately, a lot, a lot,
a lot, and I've realized a lot of our horror
movies are religious in nature. And I know we've talked
about this Inmantha. I don't know if I've ever talked
about on the show. But when I was young, I
was very very religious. I think I have talked about
and I would lie awake at I think I'm going
to burn and hill And then I was a bad person.
(19:30):
And I can see especially and when we're talking about
older times and religion back then, when you didn't understand
the world around you, um, and you thought the period
of your period was shameful because it's in like religious text,
(19:52):
then it would be terrifying. Yeah, and you like the
shame It's one thing like the shame I feel. But
back when I was a kid, if I had thought
like this was some sign of my impurity and I
was going to burn in hell because of it. Yeah, well,
so it also puts this responsibility of my duty as
(20:13):
a woman who has now bled is to our children,
because this is the only reason for it. If I'm
not using that ability, I'm sending which has been that
old school text in religion as well, and and what
providing for a family looks like for women. But yeah,
absolutely carry the movie, which we'll talk about in a
little bit, is the epitome of that whole idea. Oh yeah.
(20:38):
Another reason I think people are fade of furious are
we are afraid of women's bodies. Um. We see this
with women's bodies as a vessel for evil, the bad
seed Satan himself, like Rosemary's baby, like being the mother
of that. And I was thinking about that and more
in depth, and it's almost always it comes down to
(20:59):
blaming the mother in these movies, or blaming the woman
in these movies. Um, but often the mother, like especially
in serial killer movies, it's like, oh, yeah, it was
the mom, she should have done X Y Z um.
And then I was like, well, the final Girl might
be an exemption, but I feel like the final Girl
(21:20):
is here's this pure, innocent woman who suffers and eventually
a man will get I don't know, like she's being
preserved for a man at a future dates, which her precious,
precious virginity, um, which is why she survives, is being
(21:41):
preserved for some future man. Well, we know the sequels
that come out. It's always never good and it's a
turn for hard trying to be a woman at this point. Yeah, uh,
you know, there's also this fear around the transition into womanhood. Um,
we're very scared of young women, girls, young girls becoming
young women. We literally are afraid of fan girling. I
(22:03):
think about that article I read all the time where
the seemed legitimate. The author was like this terrifying trend
among young girls where they screamed together and lust after
this man's calm down. Not only do we not understand,
thanks to a long lack of science, uh, changing hormones
(22:24):
our bodies, Well, we also don't understand like changing emotions.
We're afraid of it, um. And we see this in
so many movies, and I know we've been talking about
this a lot lately. But I think this is in
part why all those father daughter post apocalyptic stories exist.
What could be more difficult and terrifying and altruistic than
a man trying to understand a teenage girl. What are
(22:47):
zombies compared to that? I mean the teenage boys you know,
talk about porn, great, talk about uh, tell them how
to fix the car? And teenage girls though, oh no,
oh no, what do I do? She would never want
to learn how to fix a car. Never, right, She
doesn't want to be a part of my life. He
doesn't want to watch sports with me. And that is
a very very generalization of men. I know, yeah, absolutely,
(23:11):
but I mean that's the crop to um. And then yeah,
like we said earlier that the struggle between this idea
that a period makes a girl a woman, while often
still in a young child's body, which is unsettling, it
can be um. At the same time, this threatens the
patriarchal order of things. If the young girl is becoming
(23:32):
an independent from her father, no longer needing him, Oh well,
that's scary. She's independent? What um? And that might also
be why we see this father daughter dynamic or our
stand in father figure protector in so much media. And
I know we talked in Survival Horror about this, but essentially,
like you can have a a strong female character and
(23:56):
quotes that's really awesome, but there's almost always a stronger
male character that's protecting her. Yeah, the disillusion father who
kind of just walks away. Yeah. Yeah, and it's a
marker of how good he is if he stays around
and protects her. Right. Yeah, but okay, we do have
(24:19):
some examples for you. But first we're gonna fause for
a quick break for word from a sponsor, and we're back,
Thank you, sponsor, and we're back with Carry, the iconic
(24:43):
religious horror movie. Yes, of course, this is probably one
of the most iconic examples of what we're talking about. Um,
So this is Stephen King's Carry. The book came out
in ninety four and the movie, directed by Brian to Palmer,
debut two years later in nineteen. Sissy SpaceX start as Carrie.
(25:05):
It was a shy, abused high school girl who was
bullied by both her religious mother and her classmates. And
when she gets her first period and the gym locker
room or classmates mocker, they throw tampons at her. They
shall plug it up. And Carrie, who has never had
any of this explained to her, believed she was dying.
Her mom h called it a sign of quote sinful
(25:28):
sexual fantasies. And this all happens to coincide with Carrie
developing powers, of course, delkinetic powers, which are symbolic of
her becoming a woman. When a cool prank leaves her
daust in pigs blood, representing her period, she turns those
powers indiscriminately on all in her path in a wave
(25:49):
of terrifying supernatural violence as her mom washes the blood
off her. In the end, she reveals Carrie was the
product of a rape that her mother quote in Joe
Voyd and that sin never dies. Yeah. Uh. And I've
never seen this movie when I wrote it, and I
still haven't seen it, uh, much to Samantha's uh chagrin,
(26:13):
But I did. I knew most of this from memory,
so it really left a mark on our cultural psyche,
and it received several awards. It received several nominations and
is regularly included on list of the top horror movies
of all time. Right, um, yes, I was very sad
to hear you say. Someone who loves horror movies have
(26:35):
not seen such an iconic movie. Um, you did say
you read the book, so I'll allow it. But this
is definitely of a different beast. Not only do you
have an innocent girl, and does I think she would
be called a cinnamon roll with the S I N
in a M O N. Yes, we learned this. I
learned this term because of Annie or parked cinnamon roll.
(26:56):
You're welcome that develops dark tele netic powers. But a
young girl who destroys an entire community without hesitating. Um,
she goes from victim and turns into a psycho bitch trope.
But there is a second one as well, which I've
never seen. Um, but Annie, So this is awesome. Part
(27:18):
of Savantha's iron was seeing the second carry carry to
rage unleashed. I think I have not seen the first one. Um.
I watched Carrie two for the soundtrack, which is just
as embarrassing as it sounds. Um. I still have the soundtrack.
All I remember is like she was in a pretty
(27:38):
red dress at the end and some guy got there's
a lot of fire and some guy was like in
a pool and that you know, the sheet came over
it and couldn't get out, and it really freaked me out.
That's bad, Yeah for sure. Yeah, definitely fire cleansing. Like,
there's a lot of symbolism within the story. We know
this between the blood and the fire and um, the
(28:00):
crucifixes as well as crucifying her mother essentially. So if
you haven't seen this movie already, why haven't you? Annie, Um,
But unless you don't like horror, which is fine. Also, yes,
we're talking about nineteen seventies movies, so spoiler alert, I
guess if you have it heard about it at all.
(28:21):
But yeah, the whole idea with this is so symbolic
throughout it's pretty much hit you over the head. But
he does turn what would be the innocent victim into
a very quickly evil woman. Um. Even the jump scared
at the end, which was fairly new that could jump scare.
So it got me too when I watched it as
a kid, I think it's at a slumber party, typical
slumber part. Oh my god, it's such a girl's tripe
(28:42):
right there, um and scared the hell out of us.
I think all the little girls scream. We were in
seventh grade, start seventh grade, we look because of the
perfect jump scare. Um, but you do it has this
whole thing if you have characters who are sympathetic and
are really caring and in the end really hope for
the best for her and are so excited for her.
(29:04):
However she does not care. Everyone must go. It kind
of has that this is everyone's fault, which again kind
of turns your view on her yea, even when she
does go home to her mom begging for some sympathy
and love and ends up getting you know, almost murdered
by her mother. And so it does have this whole
level of conversation of how do we see these girls
(29:25):
wire periods, the evil that comes upon us, and then
who in the end is actually innocent? Yeah, and I
mean clearly we're I don't know if oversimplifying is the
right word, because there is a lot going on, you know.
Yet you do have that religious aspect. You do have
to blame the mother aspect um, and like her becoming
(29:49):
you can read it as she becomes a woman and
then yeah, it's a traumatic experience and then unleash just
this hell within her. But she also was abused, so
there's that aspect of it too. Um. And when I
was telling Samantha why I haven't seen it I do
(30:11):
have an anxiety, like a legit anxiety around this kind
of horror that's like a bullying abuse, religion, and like womanhood.
Because we talked about several movies you hadn't seen that
are more of the psycho bitch trope and realizing you've
not seen any of those even though they are considered
horror except for one Yep, which I'm still confused by.
(30:34):
I will say that, um, but it has a whole
different layer of your involving your psyche and your your
darkest fears or even personal experiences, which makes a whole
lot more sense of like, oh, I get it, this
is why you Because I think Hush was one of them.
We don't we're not going to talk about that, but
it's definitely like a murder thriller, uh, stalker ish movie
(30:54):
which you don't really know much of this woman's background
that you just watch it in real time essentially. So yeah,
but stuff like that you don't watch in the in
the strangers, which all have that fear, which in your mind,
some of these are based on true stories. So it
was like this really good happen. Yeah, I think that's
what gets me. I think I really like I like
the clear Oh no, this is not the real world stuff,
(31:19):
not that I haven't watched plenty of those, but I
think these are because I have these anxieties. They're so
close to home. Yeah. Um, But speaking of like plague
on your Worst Fears and Stephen King, I will say
this is probably one of my biggest fears and the
reason why I am afraid of freaking clowns as because
of this movie. So Stephen Keane tackles the fears of
girls becoming women and the peer that comes with it.
(31:41):
Is it? That's so you have it as a conversation
about women in periods. And I didn't really think about
it because I don't know if I've ever finished the
early series, like when it came out in the early nineties,
because I couldn't get past the clown. Tim Curry is
the freaking clown and those teeth. But in the newer
(32:02):
movies I did see it in which they do talk
about the main female character in her period and her
becoming a woman and then the relationship she has with
her father. So in the most recent movie, Beverley Marsh's
greatest fear is that very thing and the pain it
brought her via the sexual abuse from her father when
he discovered she had her first period, he said she
(32:22):
was a woman now and very creepily sniffed her hair.
Is a little different in the book, which I've never
read the book either, again, clown in the story, I
was over it um And there's even a scene where
she stares at a wall of tampons and pass out
of pharmacy before choosing one, and then gets leered at
by the older male pharmacist when she checks out again.
(32:42):
This is whole like, yeah, yeah, it's not just the
fact that there's this almost invitation of like I'm sexual now,
which is so untrue. I've definitely had this exact moment
at the store where it's a male cashier and they're
checking you out and then give you this look like
yeah yeah gross yeah. And then one seeing Beverly is
(33:04):
in the bathroom, which was very horrifying, Uh, leaning over
a sink with blood explodes out from the drain, completely
drenching her and the bathroom in crimson blood. And honestly,
I feel like I've seen scenes like this a lot
growing up, because I watched a lot of horror movies
and it never clicked with me. What that truly was representing,
and like I thought people just had a phobia about blood,
(33:25):
which is true, but which is part of this whole thing, right. Yeah, absolutely,
they're like, oh God, you're bleeding and there's no cause
for it. This seems unnatural because we see that as
a warning of something bad is happening to your body.
This is repeated in chapter two, by the way, I
have not seen that win Um. When a now adult
Beverly is trapped in the bathroom stall, it's blood gushes
(33:46):
and rises around her, her father and the pharmacists trying
to break in. Yeah. So if if somehow you're not
familiar with it, it is this alien entity that transforms
into your greatest fear, feeds on your fear. So and
at the end of chapter chapter two, they're all having
to face their greatest fears and and so now Beverly
(34:07):
as an adult, this is just blood all around her,
and and these men who kind of tormented her, made
her this object of sexual fantasy when she was young,
are trying to get into the bathroom stall. Uh And
you know, apparently Stephen kings some kind of uh age.
I guess he likes coming of age things in general,
(34:29):
and for coming about stand by Me as one of
his like sweet movies about boys coming together, but then
also death. Yeah, but it's just interesting that his these
examples do involve the period so much. And then you
know The Shining Everybody, which notoriously he hates that movie.
But um, that scene with all the blood coming out,
(34:49):
everybody uses that as a joking gift, like my periods here. Right. Yeah,
but let's move on from Stephen King from now and
talking about Ginger Snaps, which is a movie I love.
I love that movie. Yeah. So this was made in
two thousand and It marries a teenage girl getting her
first period with her becoming a werewolf. Um like getting
(35:10):
hair and new places, acting out of character, more volatile,
painting her sexuality in a very monstrous way. But it's
very self aware. It's on purpose. Um, it's definitely commenting
on this whole thing of when you get your period,
when you become a woman, Um, then you become this monster,
like a werewolf. The movie's tagline is they don't call
(35:33):
it the curse for nothing. So have you seen any
of the sequels? No? Yeah, I haven't either. I haven't either.
I'm just afraid of sequels. Which is why I'm always
horrified when people watch it out of sink, because it's
not as good typically sometimes sometimes there You know, what
I think I feel like in trilogy is the second
one is better usually but not planned. Yes, I feel
(35:57):
like it's a plan more likely however, But yeah, the
main character of this movie is actually in the Netflix
series about Werewolves, which is yes, yes, I thought that
was hilarious because I've not seen her much recently in
many things, but people who are very, very iconic and
noticeable into me in the whole like loving horror movie.
(36:19):
She's iconic, the young girl. She plays this character as
a witch. She's not aware wolf. But the fact that
she's in this movie always like tongue in cheek type
of thing, may not be on purpose whatever, But if
you haven't seen this movie, you absolutely should. And if
you like horror movies, um, then yes. The crash we
was really funny because we had our listener cat hey
(36:41):
cat Uh send us a link on Twitter about the
remake of the Craft, and as soon as she did that,
I think it was a few days later that the
trailer came out and of course one of the big scenes,
it is a period scene which is not really like
it's I don't know if it's part of the movie
obviously we haven't seen it, but this was definitely not
a part of the original craft. UM. So we it
(37:01):
was interesting, So shout out to that. And I wonder
what this is synchronous? It was odd. We were like
literally researching this every night happened. Um. So we do
have a little bit more for you listeners, but first
we have one more quick break for word from our
sponsor and we're back. Thank you sponsor. Um And we
(37:35):
just wanted to wrap this up. I suppose. So when
I was thinking about this doing the research, I do
think horror movies at large. Um, when I when I
joke about semi joke about how they're all about mail
writer's fears around periods, I think what I actually mean
is they're all about mail writer's fears. You know, all
(37:58):
of our fears around women and periods have often been
symbolic of womanhood. Now again, I know we've been hopefully
in what was clearly vocal air quotes, saying becoming a woman. Right,
we've been saying that throughout But again, you don't have
to have periods to become a woman. But it is
something that we've seen in our culture and in our
(38:20):
media a lot um And I do think the horror
genre is intrinsically tied to women and our years around it.
That just makes sense to me. I don't think i'd
ever really put it together, like I always said, like
this genre is about final girls, and this genre is
about pregnant women giving birth to evil babies. And you know,
I never thought about, in like the whole scheme of horror,
(38:43):
how much of it is about women girls, Because yeah,
you and I have had a mania conversations because I
love those movies about you know, hauntings and you know,
possessions and all of that, because it's nice little scare.
But when you look at a chunk of it has
to do with, uh, a mother who's lost a baby
who's haunting someone, or a mother who didn't who didn't
(39:03):
want children and sacrifice them, is haunting someone. And it's
always the mother. Is always the mother doing something, whether
it's going after the mother or the mother is going
after a child. It's very link, but it is is
that whole overall. It's not just one generation of things,
it's all the things. So when we talk about um
and then we're going too soon. We're talking about the fatals.
That's the single woman. Oh my god, be terrified and terrifying.
(39:28):
I strike so much fear in the hearts of men.
Um and all of the points that we've discussed in
our previous episodes on horror movies. There there's been this
tension of badass final girls are or you know, even
in video games, we're talking about badass protagonist that you
can play, but a lot of the messaging behind them
(39:51):
is still very rigid and sexist. Um. These pieces of
entertainment are primarily created by men, not at all, not
all of them. There are some amazing women creating in
this genre and also primarily created for the male gaze. Um.
So it's empowering in a way that women's bodies do
inspire so much fear. But that's only because women's and
(40:13):
girls bodies have been so stigmatized throughout history. Um. And
when you think about how these movies and pieces of
entertainment do reflect real world fears, largely male fears that
still impact in shame so many women to this day
that still keep wind marginalized, it's a different story. Yeah, Um,
(40:35):
you just have to I don't know, I've always had
that weird tension, especially when I did one of the
first episodes I did on the show is about Final Girls,
and I got so torn about it because you are
getting this messaging that you know, to survive, to be
a good woman, you have to be a virgin and
like not smoke, not drink, and be white and brown hair.
And you know, they survived, but they survived in this
(40:57):
like patriarchal definition, and they're terrorized for it, Like they're
tormented for it, and they lose everything for it. Um
And another piece of this I do think is not
even taking the time to understand women, especially if they
don't fit the demure caricature we're supposed to fit in.
Like again, you know, she's a mad at mission must
(41:18):
be possessed or on her period. Um. Any behavior that's
not fitting into this patriarchal like gender conforming box is
threatening and scary and something to be punished, because horror
movies are largely about punishment for breaking societal norms. Um
are in this case and the one we're talking about today,
(41:38):
for being a woman at all, or is a cautionary
tale of if you do this, this is what happens.
To you. Yeah. Yeah, Um, your sexuality will get you
punished unless you do it in the right quote unquote way. Yeah. Um. So,
I guess we have a lot to say about horror
(41:58):
movies and periods, but that's well. Will stop for today
for today, but continue on because it is October and
we love these themes. Yes, yes, yes we do. Um,
and I know there's so many other movies we could
have talked about, so if we missed one, please send
it our way. UM. You can email us at stuff Medio,
mom Stuff at i heart media dot com. You can
(42:20):
find us on Instagram at stuff I've Never Told You
or on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always
to our super producer Andrew Howard, and thanks to you
for listening. Stuff I Never Told You is the production
of iHeart Radio. For more podcast from I Heart Radio,
visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows.
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