December 29, 2021 • 40 mins
Good news, what? Recently, the US Food and Drug Administration announced a permanent repeal on the in-person dispensing on a popular medication for abortion. Bridget Todd stops by to explain what that means.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Sanny and Samantha and welcome to Steph
I never told you production of High Radio, and we
are thrilled to once again be joined by our good friend,
the amazing, so talented Bridget Todd. Oh. I'm so happy,
(00:28):
so happy, Thank you for having me. I'm I told
you earlier. I was drinking a little sparkling wine to
celebrate the holiday season and getting to hang out with
you all. I'm so excited. Yes, yes, they're so excited too.
And this one is actually, um pretty I'm excited to
talk about it. Some rare good news I feel. But yes, um, Bridget, Uh,
(00:52):
We're we're coming toward the end of the year and
this is we're kind of finishing up recordings for one
which is we very very strange. Do you have anything
I know last time we talked about weird Christmas? Is
there anything else like on the horizon you're excited about?
Later today, we're leaving for our weirdo Christmas, which I'm
so ecstatic about, so happy. Yeah, I'm also spending the
(01:15):
holidays with my brand new, fresh out the oven niece,
little baby three months old and the cutest kid in
the world. I am obsessed with her. She doesn't know
that I'm a person. But we'll get there baby steps,
as they say, right, I don't think they recognize you
as a person until they're literally in their adolescence, because
(01:36):
until then, you're their servants to give to them what
they want. Essentially, is what I've discovered with all the
young uns pretty much. Yeah, I'm telling you probably I'm
gonna say seven. Okay, I think you and I have
different ideas of adolescents. And okay, am I saying that wrong?
(01:57):
I don't. I just always thought that was like twelve thirteen,
teenager years. Well, this is we're going to get hung
up in in vernacular that we don't need to get
into right now. But now I'm clear on what you mean. Okay,
I got you. Now I'm having to question it anyway, Yes,
move on. I'm excited. Judy is that her name? That's
such a great name. We're doing it back a little bit. Yes,
(02:20):
it's it's It can be turned into all kinds of
cute nicknames. I call her Judy Huti. Again, she doesn't
understand that I'm speaking to her. She only now just
realized that she has like hands and a tongue. So
we're at your baby steps. Yeah. Yeah, do you all
have fun holiday plans? Uh? Well, we teld you about
(02:40):
our kind of weirdo New Years, which is essentially staying
in and wearing one's ees, watching pies. I do make
like the traditional soup. You know, yes, exactly exactly. I can't.
I mean, clearly it's been going so for me. So
(03:02):
maybe I didn't get the right type of collared greens.
I don't know. I don't know if you know this, Bridget,
but right before the pandemic, I really said in my
New Year's resolution was to stay in more. Oh and
that's the thing that I feel like I ruined everything.
She placed a curse you. I'm sure I thought my
first ever planner for I usually never buy a planners
(03:26):
about my first ever in life planner, and I wrote,
I wrote all kinds of goals for dream. Oh. Yeah,
we had a whole episode about predicting what would happen,
and we were real wrong, like the wrongest that we
could be. I think we hit those essentially, it's one
for the books. That episode we kind of it almost
(03:50):
had to be an apology, like sorry, we have to
protract something essentially a thing you were the conspiracy theories
about five g We were right about that. We didn't
know how far it would go. We just did not
have the imaginations to match the reality. Uh, for myself,
(04:14):
it is going to be a very low key, low key,
I say, because we are going to partners Christmas. This
is our first big deal Christmas, I guess, and I
say low key because I am anxious written about it,
and so I'm pretending like it's not happening. So I'm
sure the day we drive there is when I'm going
to have a panic attack, which is silly because they're
(04:35):
great people, but in my head, this is a new situation.
So I'm like, so we'll see what happens. You should
watch a lot of holiday movies like um, The Family Stone,
like like you know holiday movies where it's like, oh,
they're like new partner visiting for the holidays, to sort
of get get your mind right. Wait, have you seen
(04:55):
Holiday Stone? Because it does not end, well what happened?
Don't watch that one. It's gonna go much better than that.
I forgot about that, You're one because it was not
realistic over the top that I was like, oh my god,
this is so depressing. Why am I watching those, every
(05:16):
wrong thing has happened, and now Bridge is like, I
hope that upon you I thought we were friends. That
won't happen. It'll be that'll be a representation of what
will what will not. Right there we go, Okay, okay,
I'm gonna I'll take that. That was very very funny. Also,
(05:37):
I just want to say Bridget, thank you for complimenting
my very direky Star Wars Boba Fette sweater. So it's
actually a big deal because it's a gift from my
older brother and he's never given me a gift in
my entire life. So yeah, I know, I'm like, all right,
hit the mark because he was like I knew this,
this is for you. There's no way I couldn't get this.
(05:59):
You are correct, Thank you. Yeah, it's a very antie gift.
Kudos to the brother. Yes, yes, and Annie has is
it now? Six five six different Star Wars Christmas waters,
none of which I purchased. Um, So people do know
me very well. Um. Yes, So I'm trying to get
(06:20):
through the catalog while I can, while it's acceptable, even
though it's mostly just me in my apartment. So I
guess it doesn't matter. I could wear them whenever. All right,
so we are also excited to discuss the topic he
bought today, bridgett um. So what are we going to
be discussing? It feels like, let's go. I know, It's
(06:41):
like it's like it feels like a little bit of
a gift for once. I am excited to share we
have a little bit of positive news for people who
have uterus is Can you imagine? That feels like all
we ever get is like, oh, we're bad news, we're
bad news. But actually, just yesterday, the Food and Drug
Administration the FDA announced a permanent repeal of the in
person dispensing requirement for I actually have the pronunciation spelled out.
(07:05):
If I buch of this pronunciation, please don't come after me.
Myth A prity zone one of the two medications used
in medication abortion a k a. The abortion pill. So, uh,
pretty exciting, it's a it's a I'm cautiously optimistic and
pretty comfortable saying like it's a good thing. We'll discuss
(07:25):
like why it's sort of like not the best thing,
but it's definitely a step in the right direction, and
so I'm comfortable, Like these days you gotta take a
w however you can get it. So I'm comfortable saying
this is a small win for abortion rights, which is
such a yeah a sentence my brain did not know
how to process. But I was looking over your outline,
(07:46):
I was like, right, I feel the same way. I
really feel maybe we've just so traumatized previously and we're
all on edge that I'm like, yeah, but but what
like just way eating but instead of celebrating, hey, this
is good news because it is a step forward. But
(08:09):
totally as someone who is pretty involved in the fight
for abortion rights and access and reproductive justice, I know
exactly that that weird feeling you're describing winds but qualified winds,
and then sort of like well, and then ultimately I
guess I feel that we shouldn't have to be fighting
for this stuff in general, like we should. Everybody deserves
(08:29):
to have autonomy over their own body, access to healthcare,
access to abortion care if they need it. Even the
conversation I feel is we shouldn't even have to be
fighting for stuff like this. But you know, in the
fight for abortion rights, that can be very negative, very
taking many, many many steps back, and so I do
think it's important to, you know, highlight when we have
(08:50):
something that is not awful happening. And this is actually
something I think I've seen it in the headlines. And
(09:11):
I know you and I talked about it bridget a
while back, several years ago, and I not I didn't
really know much about the abortion pill. So can you
can you tell us what it is and how it works?
Absolutely so? According to Planned Parenthood, the so called abortion
pill is a popular name for two different medicines used
to end a pregnancy, miffor pretty zone and another one
(09:35):
myceo pros atoll. So pregnancy needs the hormone called pro
estrogen to grow normally, and miffor pretty zone blocks your
protty's own pro estrogen. And so basically it's just a
combination of pills that you take to induce an abortion. Yes,
and I know, like you know, this conversation isn't only
limited to the US, was it Ireland? Had it somewhere?
(09:56):
Had a similar kind of conversation Scotland and you and
I we did that whole episode about um the changing
rules in the UK because the United States and so
this is definitely a global issue and issue where like
other countries and other regions, I have have different standards of
the legality of how pregnant people can access this kind
of medication to get the abortion care they need. Yeah,
(10:19):
And one of the things that we talked about in
that episode was also telemedicine UM and being able to
get it and like from the comfort of your own home,
and how important that was for a lot of people
for this UM. So, can you share the history of
this kind of abortion care via telemedicine in the US? Totally?
(10:40):
So telemedicine if you don't know what that is, it's
basically when you access your doctor through the internet, through
your phone through video conferencing. That's kind of like the
thing for me that makes this kind of a tech
story is that people have been relying on that kind
of technology enabled healthcare for a really long time. So
abortion via telemedicine has been available in the US. It's
around two thousand and eight when the first formal program began.
(11:03):
An eye love, a patient and one clinic can confer
via video conference with a doctor in another clinic and
then they would get their pills to induce an abortion.
And that video conferencing element that satisfied a federal requirement
that a doctor had to dispense the medication to induce
an abortion in a clinic office or hospital. And so
that was a real instance where technology bridged that gap.
(11:26):
That's satisfied this federal requirement that a doctor dispense I'm
using quotes around that this medication. And so there are
so many reasons why that would be a huge deal
for people who are pregnant or really anybody looking for
any kind of healthcare, because if you're someone who lives
in a rural community or a remote community, you can't
always get to a clinic, maybe there's not one close.
(11:47):
Let's say you don't have a car. Let's say you're
just a busy person in a lot on your plate
and you can't physically go see a doctor. Telemedicine really
is this thing that can really bridge that gap and
bring the healthcare that folks need right into their homes.
And so huge, huge deal. Unfortunately, opponents responded pretty quickly,
prohibiting abortion via telemedicine in twenty states. In the US,
(12:11):
the FDA regulates medication abortion under a set of rules
called the Risk Evaluation and Medication Strategy or r e
m S, which determines how and which doctors can provide
abortion toils to patients. There was this really interesting paper
called sixteen years of over Regulation, Time to Unburden my
bras published in twenty seventeen in the New England Journal
of Medicine. UM. We're leading clinicians and public health experts
(12:34):
argued that the FDA restrictions were medically unnecessary, and a
c l U attorneys noted that the leading medical groups,
including the American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, support making
abortion bills available by prescription at pharmacies. UM. And here's
a really good quote from one of the doctors. He says,
overwhelming medical evidence and decades of clinical experience show medication
(12:54):
abortion to be a safe and effective method to end pregnancy.
There are simply no medical justifications these restrictions, and they
create a needless and harmful burden for women seeking in
this care. And I think that really sums up I
feel what this conversation is about. It's about what happens
when there are needless and undo burdens that separate people
from the medical care and including abortion care that they
(13:17):
need right and and one of the things that happens
is that people who who need an abortion, who want
an abortion resort to if they have these undue burdens.
Are these obstacles two less than reliable, perhaps less than safe,
like online places where they can get these medications? Right, Yeah,
(13:41):
so this actually really makes me sad. It's one of
those things where I feel again, these burdens make people
resort to things that are not always safe. In a
study called Exploring the Feasibility of Obtaining mithripritizone and me
so Protosol from the Internet, Alizabeth Raymond, a senior medical
(14:01):
associate at the research organization Genuity, googled phrases like by
abortion pills online, and the researchers ended up ordering eighteen
of the pill combinations from sixteen different websites, none of
which required a prescription. The pills usually came from India,
which there is a large generic drug industry there, and
the shipments usually call sur around like a hundred and ten,
three and sixty dollars and they took about three days
(14:24):
to three weeks to arrive. And so basically they found
that these products they were getting when they would they
would google things like abortion pills online, we're just kind
of sketchy. They would have typos that would be language
mistranslations in the in the packages. UM. In one instance,
the pills arrived with the blister packs had been broken,
and the researchers think that was done intentionally because they
(14:46):
didn't want someone to be like, oh, I think there's
abortion pills in this package, so they would break the
blister packs those things that keep pills from cracking UM
before sending them. And even more worryingly, none of these
pills came with in auctions for use and so just
like very sketchy, but you can see the kinds of
things that people resort to when these burdens are put
(15:08):
in place to keep them from the abortion care that
they need. Right, I feel like this is just talking
in a different way of what was happening in the
early pre row versus weight in trying to find solutions
the best they can, especially for those who can't afford
access in any way at all. Just not being able
(15:28):
to pay a hundred dollars I'm assuming in a lot
of things, when you start realizing that price is too
good to be true, it probably is. And when we
talk about especially for healthcare and reproductive care, we already know, yeah,
because people want this to fail, that people are not
going to look and try to stop these these really
(15:49):
sketchy situations, which is infuriating because that has put so
many people with us in danger, and so many people
who are in a place that they cannot go to doctors,
they cannot even award tell in medicine, even though that's
a better access, thank goodness, it's a step up. But
we have things like kind amendment that prevents even trying
to access it for those who can't afford these types
(16:10):
of solutions that should already been existing. As you had
said earlier, Oh absolutely, You've reminded me of one of
my favorite quotes from one of my idols, Shortly Chisholm.
She says, no matter what men think, abortion is the
fact of life. Women have always had them. They always
have and they always will. Are they going to have
good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be
reserved for the rich or the poor? Women go to quacks?
And I feel like that really sums it up. You know,
(16:32):
this idea that when you know, Shortly chis Almo was
talking about this in the seventies, and here we are
in still having this conversation about whether or not people
who don't have access or influence or financial means. Are
we going to say that it's okay for them to
have to access abortion care through sketchy means, via quacks,
(16:54):
via like pills that maybe aren't super you know, on
the level. And I think the answer should be no.
Everybody does deserves medical care. Everybody deserves abortion care if
that's what they need. And it makes me so sad that,
just like you said, it's kind of an updated version
of the same conversation we've been having since the sixties
and seventies, and it's so depressing in that regards here
(17:15):
to put a dark cloud everything you can always count
on you. I feel like we need a sound effect
like the More you Know, But it's like Samantha's dark cloud.
I think you should be like d work on that later.
This also reminds me of because a lot of what
you talk about, Bridget has to do with, yes, the
Internet and misinformation and disinformation. And I know we've had
(17:37):
conversations around CPCs or crisis pregnancy centers and how when
you'll type you know, where do I get in abortion?
A lot of times the results will be like the
first results will be um d C PCs, and I
can just imagine for people trying to get access to
to this medication, the same kind of issue there, and
then on top of that people have been arrested. Correct. Oh, absolutely,
(18:01):
so the s I a legal team, a group of
lawyers who specialized in people who have induced their own abortions,
knows of twenty one people who have been arrested or
prosecuted for ending their pregnancies outside of this medical setting
that was required, you know, in terms of medication abortion
or helping someone else do it. Um. This actually might
even be undercounted since they rely on news reports such
(18:22):
fact these cases. The charges brought against people who self
abord can range from child abuse, the abuse of a corpse,
or failure to report death. Now, to be clear, none
of the women were prosecuted for buying abortion pills specifically,
but they note that buying pills online or even googling
phrases like buy abortion pills online, can leave a paper
trail that can be used as evidence against them in
a trial. And so this is not something that is
(18:45):
abstract like we in this country, people have been prosecuted
for trying to induce abortions on their own via pills
they get online. UM. A famous case in twenty fifteen,
Indiana woman named Pervy Patel was sentenced to twenty years
in prison her feet aside after she allegedly used abortion
pills that she ordered online. Prosecutors claimed that her fetus
(19:06):
had been quote born alive and that she allowed it
to die, but later her conviction was overturned on appeal.
So again we are talking about very real circumstances where
this this right to access abortion care via pills via
tele medicine online has been really a fraud thing that
(19:28):
people have been prosecuted for trying to do. And you know,
we have all of these instances where people have subjected
themselves to unsafe, sketchy abortion pills because of the undue
burdens that have been put in place to prevent them
from getting access to the care they need. The case
for the woman in Indiana, even though it's not related,
(19:50):
kind of brings back the memories of what just happened
in Alabama recently with a woman who lost the fetus
wanting to have this baby, not trying to have an abortion,
but got prosecuted with those same types of charges for
neglect of a fetus. And I'm like, we all were
horrified and had it not been publicized, she probably would
(20:11):
still have remained in jail or prison. And it also
takes me to what's happening in Texas as the Supreme
Court is now allowing the bounty law. That's what I'm
calling it. I know that's not what it's actually called
for it to go. And I'm wondering how this is
going to affect, uh, if people are trying to access
abortion pills, and then we are you already said I
believe that twenty states are not allowing for this type
(20:32):
of access in anyway. So I'm guessing Texas is one
of those. I'm on SI guessing Georgia is to that.
How this is going to affect even more so in
trying to prosecute uh, those with yours or those who
are helping trying to get access at all. Yeah, it's
a great question, and I think it really underscores just
what scary dire times we are in. You know, I
(20:55):
remember talking to my mom about, you know, when she
was coming of age, protesting for you know, abortion on
her campus, trying to get access to birth control pills,
and she once told me she was like, oh, when
I was doing all of that back then, I knew
at least when I had a daughter, she wouldn't have
to sort of fight these same fights, that these fights
(21:16):
would be over and done with at the time my
daughter was here, well talk about, you know, predictions that
didn't come true. She was wrong. Here I am her
adult daughter, still having to deal with this kind of stuff.
And so we are in a really scary time for
abortion access for anybody who cares about abortion access, and
that should really be everybody, everybody, regardless of gender, should
(21:38):
care about this. And so I agree with you. I
I think that sometimes I'll see, like I think it
was Chris Hayes who tweeted something, and I like Chris Hayes,
and I'm not I'm not trying to like get down
on him, but he tweeted about I think the Texas
abortion bill, like, oh, I think that we're going to
see miscarriages being criminalized next. And it's like, I hate
to break it to you, Chris Hayes, but where there happening.
(22:02):
You know, this is exactly that same level of like,
oh my god, we're still fighting for access, We're still
trying to have this conversation about bodily autonomy for those
with uterus is those who are non binary, like trying
to figure out how to even have rights at all.
Like honestly, seeing the news as I talked about it earlier,
(22:23):
I was like, but but waiting for you know, they
had to drop waiting for Oh no, it's gonna go
fall apart. I'm trying to figure out how even how
the FDA even came to this point, How did we
get here, which is amazing, but how well. I actually
have an answer for you, which is like, as much
as I hated COVID, we kind of have COVID to
(22:43):
thank for this important change. And so this new change,
to be clear, um, it's not going to impact everyone
on every state, like you said, but the reason why
we have it is because of COVID restrictions. And so,
during the pandemic, medical groups filed a lawsuit asking that
the in person dispensing requirement be left did because the
pandemic meant that patients were faced with a greater risk
(23:03):
of being infected um with coronavirus if they were visiting
clinics in person to get pills, and so a judge
granted that request this that summer, but after a challenge
by the Trump administration. Of course, the Supreme Court reinstated
the restriction. In March, medical organizations tried again right into
President bid An end Vice President Harris. In April, the
FDA decided not to enforce the in person requirement for
(23:25):
the duration of the pandemic and allowed, uh, these pills
to be mailed to folks. And again yesterday, the big
decision is that that change, which at that point was temporary,
is going to be made permanent. And so, you know,
the pandemic. I hate it, I hate it obviously, but
this is one of those things where I think that
the people who were fighting for these regulars this regulation
(23:45):
change really saw a way to be like, you know,
it doesn't make sense to ask people to go in
person to get the abortion care they need, particularly during
a pandemic, and then being like and also, shouldn't we
just end it all together? You know, I really appreciate
it them kind of like the strategy of this, yeah, yeah,
you know, we gotta find your like you said, your
(24:06):
winds and your chances where you can and if it's
a pandemic, well, so could you go into just a
(24:28):
bit more like what exactly this this ruling is means
in terms of like, yeah, the states and how how
it's like specifically impacting different states and just what does
it all mean virg Totally, I want to make clear that,
like it is important to know that this will not
impact everyone in every state. As you said, in nineteen
(24:50):
states and mostly in the South and the Midwest, telemedicine
visits for abortion are banned, and so that really you know,
there's really no change in those states. And and and then
you know because everything is awful, and that because you know,
the powers that be are constantly chipping away at our
riots and are our access to abortion care. Um, we
(25:11):
do believe that conservative states are expected to pass other
laws to further curtail the access to abortion pills. And
so even though again I feel like this is a win,
I want to be clear that is not a win
that impacts everybody. And so this means that people who
live in states that do not allow telemedicine for abortion
must travel to a state that does, although and this
(25:31):
is kind of a weird point, they do not have
to visit a clinic. They may be in any location
within that state for their telehealth visit, even inside of
a car. They may receive pills at any address in
that state. So again, it just seems like such a
weird obviously both burden to be like, well, if you're
(25:52):
in this state that does not allow for telemedicine appointments
for abortion pills, you can't get them. But if you
drive to a state does allow them, you're going to
sit in the Wendy's parking lot and have a telemedicine
and visit over your phone in your car, and then
that's all good. That again, it just seems like it's
really reveals that this is about putting ridiculous burdens and
(26:14):
barriers to prevent people from getting the abortion care they need.
Like what if you don't have a car, What if
you don't have the financial means to drive to another state,
what if you have to work or already have kids
and don't really have the ability to just like take
a trip like this. It seems like such an obvious
way to just prevent people from getting the care they need.
And like, to me, it's just like my bullsh alarm
(26:37):
goes off, like this is clearly just like let's just
make it hard for people to get the care they need. Yeah,
I mean, this is such a like a much more
superficial problem but it reminds me of when I was
a kid. Um we would drive to the border of
Alabama and where I'm located in Georgia, and we'd right
in the border. They'd be all these fireworks. So I
(26:58):
knew you were gonna say that we would had all
these fireworks, and but if they're illegal in Georgia, my
parents would be like, you can't sell them, but we
can shoot them off. I'm like, that makes no sense
to me, That's absolutely right. I was thinking the same
thing with like alcohol cells, you know, within the Southern States,
like they were very restrictive up unto a certain point,
so people would cross borders to go get alcohol. So
(27:21):
for a long time, Georgia couldn't sell it on Sundays,
so people would go to Alabama like that would have
access to it. Again, this is very like, less harmful
than any o the stuff, but it is also very
reminiscent of the fact that they are shutting down clinics
in certain states and so therefore we have to access
clinics maybe two or three states away in general, And honestly,
(27:44):
we've been watching what's happening with Poland as well as
they have had one of the harshest restrictions and bands
um in the world as well, and it's fairly new
and them talking about the fact that they're having to
do essentially underground networks to get access to pills and
to any type of reproductive help access by traveling across
country border lines in order to get access. And yeah,
(28:06):
that's exactly what's happening in that level of state wise
for us. That yes, for some of these and they're
gonna make it so difficult that you will you will
have to plan as if, like you have to be
away for a week to get a pill um in
order to get any kind of access, and if you
can't afford it, sorry, then you're not allowed it. Yeah,
(28:27):
And so just like what's happening in Poland, we're seeing
some a bit of that here in the United States.
So states like California and New York states where you
can access abortion pills via telemedicine, they've taken steps in
recent years to further solidify access to abortion and they're
expected to increase the availability of telemedicine for abortion pills,
specifically to provide opportunities for folks and other states with
(28:47):
these kinds of restrictions to obtain abortion pills by traveling
to their state to get them. And so we are
seeing this thing where other states that allow this are
probably going to be stepping up so that people specifically
so that pole who live in states that you know,
they can't access this can get them. And so it
is it is a little bit like that. And you know,
even though this is a win, we shouldn't have to
(29:09):
be doing any of this just to get abortion care.
Like nobody should have to jump through ridiculous hoops to
get medical care that they need, and so this is
no different. And so I think of this as a win,
but I just I have to keep harping on that
that we shouldn't have to be fighting this way and
like celebrating these sort of like incremental tooth and nail
winds for something that like should just be a right
(29:31):
that everybody should have. Yeah, and these pill based abortions
are actually pretty common, right, That's right, And so especially
in the pandemic. The tele Abortion Project, which is a
research program authorized by the FDA to conduct tele medicine
appointments and male pills, has heard from many people and
they're saying that they have really seen from folks using
(29:54):
their services, that people are really stepping up the amount
that they are seeking these kinds of services since the pandemic.
Elizabeth Raymond. She said that of the two thousand and
eighties three abortions provided under the program between July October one,
more than a third, seven hundred and fifteen, occurred during
the pandemic, and that really mirrors with the CDC is found.
(30:14):
The CDC found in twenty in some states, including Indiana, Kansas,
and Minnesota, the methodic pill based abortions accounted for the
majority of abortions according to state Health Department records, and
the CDC also found that seventy of abortions occurred before
the ten weeks gestation period, suggesting that there are many, many,
many more people who would probably choose abortion pills over
(30:36):
an in clinic procedure if they could um Another great resource,
Abortion on Demand, which is an online platform that provides
position supported medication. Abortion Care Online, said that they have
seen a lot of growing interests in pill based abortions
since the pandemic as well, and so it makes complete
sense that at a time when it's like not safe
to leave your house, that people would be turning to
(30:56):
the internet to get the kind of care that they need,
and even beyond abortion. You know, I when the pandemic started,
actually very early into the pandemic, This is like a
little bit embarrassing. I had a assist on my butt
cheek and my doctor had switched to telemedicine only, and
I remember thinking like, well, certainly she's not gonna want
(31:17):
to like have me take down my pants and show
her my butt cheek over you know, face time. And
that's exactly what I did, and I get the care
that I needed. And so obviously we should not be
putting unfair barriers in place when I think that the
pandemic really showed how important it is to use the
technology that we have to access healthcare right. And I
(31:39):
know there are stories you can find out. There are
people who said, like why it was so important to
them and why they wanted to be in like they're
kind of you know, home or where they felt comfortable
when they did this. Um. But also unfortunately a lot
of times going to an abortion clinic can also not
feel safe because there can be people protesting outside and
that makes it much more stressful experience. And and speaking
(32:04):
of I'm sure, um not everyone was happy about about
this news. Oh, of course not so. Anti choice groups
were not happy about this announcement. The Susan B. Anthony
Foundation said the Biden administration today moved to weaken the
long standing federal safety regulations against mail order abortion drugs,
designed to protect women from serious health risks and potential abuse.
(32:27):
So here's my question about this. First of all, how
and why would someone be abusing these abortion pills. It's
not like they like, take it from me. They do
not get you high, the side effects that you might
have or like mild nausea. I don't really think that
people are like, oh, I can't wait to get these
drugs to induce mild nausea. It's gonna be a wild time.
Can't wait to abuse them. So already have some questions there,
(32:50):
and then doctors make it clear that pill based abortions
are safe. A research program at the FDA found that
of the one thousand, one fifties seven abortions that occurred
through the program between September, we're completed without requiring any
follow up procedure, patients made seventy visits to emergency rooms
or urgent care centers, with ten instances of serious complications
(33:13):
to study reported, and so that's really like pretty good
in terms of, you know, the safety of this, Like
doctors have made it very clear that pill based abortions
are not unsafe and telemedicine abortions are safe for all
the reasons that you've just said. Any they can be
more convenient. Maybe you don't want to go to an
abortion clinic where there's going to be people shouting at
you when you're already stressed. Uh, maybe you have to work,
(33:36):
or maybe you can't afford to get to a clinic,
or like, there are so many reasons why someone would
choose to you know, access the care they need through telemedicine,
and it's there's not really a lot of reasons why
we are regulating it in this way. And one thing
I also want to point out is that this change
is obviously, like very long overdue, especially when you consider
(33:56):
that out of the twenty different prescription medications currently regulated
by the FDA, these abortion bills are the only one.
The only one the f d A previously required to
be dispensed in person but permitted patience to self administer.
And so that really, I mean, like, of all of
these medications, this like why is this the only one
(34:18):
that had this unfair burden to access. This is one
of the only medications that are given to people with
uteruses and those who need reproductive health like essentially, this
is why we know these answers, and I find that
fascinating because as we're looking for the future, and of course,
I think part of the reason and any and I
(34:39):
are both like hesitant in celebrating because we are in
Georgia run by current Governor Brian kimp who has absolutely
put into place every restriction that you can think of
when it comes to accessing any kind of health care
in general. And I say that very loudly, as he
is threatening to shut down any connections with federal assistance
when it comes to coverage in the state at this
(34:59):
point in time. And I think one of the things
that we are talking about and trying to be very
loud about, is that these groups are not focusing on
the women. Obviously, it is a literal fight about what
is moral in their eyes, and for a Bible belt
area of such as Georgia, it is a constant battle
trying to see how to combat uh these really generalized,
(35:23):
slash false narratives of the harming women as if they're
truly trying to save women, what is actually they're trying
to prevent women to get good access and a good
health care at all. So it's kind of one of
those moments of like how And I guess honestly, the
pandemic has shown a lot of light about the fact
(35:44):
that when it comes to morality and conspiracies, they don't
care if it's from science. They don't care about the truth,
as we have learned, um, and I find it interesting
that as we are trying to focus on this, what
what are some ways that we can maybe uh advocate
(36:07):
for ourselves, for people like Annie and I who are
stuck in Georgia right now, for more access to these things.
Oh what a good question. I mean, first of all,
I just have to honor what you just said, because
we are at a time where it is scary and
the threat is real. Anybody who told you like, oh,
they're not going to overturn row, like you'll be fine,
(36:28):
Like we're not going to go backward, they were incorrect.
They were telling you something that wasn't true. And I
I I'm sorry to have to say that, but here's
here's the reality of where we are and it's it's
very real and it's very scary, and I completely understand
the urge to be like, well, this is happening. It's inevitable.
Our rights are going to be rolled back. Women are
(36:51):
going to die, people are going to die. This is
going to be bad. Anybody who's feeling that that exhaustion
and malaise, I'm with you. I get it. All I
can say is that now is not the time to retreat.
Now is the time to dig in. And so I
have to really lift up and amplify all the amazing
people who are doing the work on the ground of
(37:12):
protecting abortion access. I want to shout out a few
people right now. My colleague at Ultra Violet Sonia Spoo,
who is incredible. Um, my friend Renee, who is doing
a lot of work around abortion storytelling and just like
helping people understand how many different people are impacted by
abortion care and need abortions, and like someone that you
love has had an abortion. And then if you're looking
like what can I do? Absolutely, now is the time
(37:36):
to be supporting abortion funds around the country. If you've
got a local abortion fund in your and your community,
throw them some money. If you've got some extra money.
You can go to abortion Funds dot org and find out.
You know, people are doing a lot of organizing of
making sure that people can still get the access to
care that they need, So definitely support those folks. Also
urge your lawmaker to support the Women's Health Protection Act.
(37:57):
You can go to we Are Ultra Violet dot org
and find our petition demanding the Women's Health Protection Act
be passed because we need Now is the time that
we need to be fighting with all that we've got.
I know it is scary, I know it's hard. I
know we've all been through a lot, but now is
the time to really dig in. And I think, like, like,
one of the things that really gives me hope in
(38:18):
this fight are things like abortion care networks, are things
like this, individuals doing what they can, and so I
know that we got us are. The government might always
not always have our back, our lefted officials might not
always have our back, but we have our own backs.
And so this fight is hard and long, but I
know I know that we got we got each other,
and so that's the one thing that really gives me hope.
(38:40):
So Will said, I think I needed it, because yes,
I've been very We all are very concerned and worried.
But that was a nice a nice vote on this
our last recording with you one and some excellent advice
as always, hanging there, Yes, hanging there, we can do this.
(39:04):
We could do this. Low key there. That's that's what
I call you, Samantha Loki. Yes, yes, well, thank you
as always Bridget for joining us, UM and bringing this topic.
(39:26):
It is always such a delight to have you have fun.
You're about to leave for your your weirdo Christmas. Correct,
that's right. In a matter of hours, I will be
wearing a fur hat like probably pretty drunk in the wood.
It's important in this whole conversation. Yes, yes, have a
(39:49):
lovely time. Um. Where can the listeners find you? Well,
you can find me all over the web. I'm at
Bridget Marie on Twitter and at Bridget Marie in DC
on Instagram. Please follow me. I'm trying to get my
followers up, hope. Please follow, and you can follow me
on my I Heart Radio podcast. There are no girls
on the internet where we have all kinds of interesting
conversations about culture and technology and gender and race and
(40:12):
the internet. So please please check it out. Yes, go
check it out. It is fantastic and as always, if
you want to contact us, you can our email Stefan
your mom Stuff I hurt me dot com. You can
find us on Twitter at Momstuff podcast or Instagram and
Stuff I Never Told You. Thanks as always start super
producer Christina, thank you and thanks you for listening Stuff
Whenever Told You his production by Heart Radio one podcast
(40:32):
on my Heart Radio is The Day I Hear Radio,
app Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite ships.
Hey, this is Sanny and Samantha and welcome to Steph
I never told you production of High Radio, and we
are thrilled to once again be joined by our good friend,
the amazing, so talented Bridget Todd. Oh. I'm so happy,
(00:28):
so happy, Thank you for having me. I'm I told
you earlier. I was drinking a little sparkling wine to
celebrate the holiday season and getting to hang out with
you all. I'm so excited. Yes, yes, they're so excited too.
And this one is actually, um pretty I'm excited to
talk about it. Some rare good news I feel. But yes, um, Bridget, Uh,
(00:52):
We're we're coming toward the end of the year and
this is we're kind of finishing up recordings for one
which is we very very strange. Do you have anything
I know last time we talked about weird Christmas? Is
there anything else like on the horizon you're excited about?
Later today, we're leaving for our weirdo Christmas, which I'm
so ecstatic about, so happy. Yeah, I'm also spending the
(01:15):
holidays with my brand new, fresh out the oven niece,
little baby three months old and the cutest kid in
the world. I am obsessed with her. She doesn't know
that I'm a person. But we'll get there baby steps,
as they say, right, I don't think they recognize you
as a person until they're literally in their adolescence, because
(01:36):
until then, you're their servants to give to them what
they want. Essentially, is what I've discovered with all the
young uns pretty much. Yeah, I'm telling you probably I'm
gonna say seven. Okay, I think you and I have
different ideas of adolescents. And okay, am I saying that wrong?
(01:57):
I don't. I just always thought that was like twelve thirteen,
teenager years. Well, this is we're going to get hung
up in in vernacular that we don't need to get
into right now. But now I'm clear on what you mean. Okay,
I got you. Now I'm having to question it anyway, Yes,
move on. I'm excited. Judy is that her name? That's
such a great name. We're doing it back a little bit. Yes,
(02:20):
it's it's It can be turned into all kinds of
cute nicknames. I call her Judy Huti. Again, she doesn't
understand that I'm speaking to her. She only now just
realized that she has like hands and a tongue. So
we're at your baby steps. Yeah. Yeah, do you all
have fun holiday plans? Uh? Well, we teld you about
(02:40):
our kind of weirdo New Years, which is essentially staying
in and wearing one's ees, watching pies. I do make
like the traditional soup. You know, yes, exactly exactly. I can't.
I mean, clearly it's been going so for me. So
(03:02):
maybe I didn't get the right type of collared greens.
I don't know. I don't know if you know this, Bridget,
but right before the pandemic, I really said in my
New Year's resolution was to stay in more. Oh and
that's the thing that I feel like I ruined everything.
She placed a curse you. I'm sure I thought my
first ever planner for I usually never buy a planners
(03:26):
about my first ever in life planner, and I wrote,
I wrote all kinds of goals for dream. Oh. Yeah,
we had a whole episode about predicting what would happen,
and we were real wrong, like the wrongest that we
could be. I think we hit those essentially, it's one
for the books. That episode we kind of it almost
(03:50):
had to be an apology, like sorry, we have to
protract something essentially a thing you were the conspiracy theories
about five g We were right about that. We didn't
know how far it would go. We just did not
have the imaginations to match the reality. Uh, for myself,
(04:14):
it is going to be a very low key, low key,
I say, because we are going to partners Christmas. This
is our first big deal Christmas, I guess, and I
say low key because I am anxious written about it,
and so I'm pretending like it's not happening. So I'm
sure the day we drive there is when I'm going
to have a panic attack, which is silly because they're
(04:35):
great people, but in my head, this is a new situation.
So I'm like, so we'll see what happens. You should
watch a lot of holiday movies like um, The Family Stone,
like like you know holiday movies where it's like, oh,
they're like new partner visiting for the holidays, to sort
of get get your mind right. Wait, have you seen
(04:55):
Holiday Stone? Because it does not end, well what happened?
Don't watch that one. It's gonna go much better than that.
I forgot about that, You're one because it was not
realistic over the top that I was like, oh my god,
this is so depressing. Why am I watching those, every
(05:16):
wrong thing has happened, and now Bridge is like, I
hope that upon you I thought we were friends. That
won't happen. It'll be that'll be a representation of what
will what will not. Right there we go, Okay, okay,
I'm gonna I'll take that. That was very very funny. Also,
(05:37):
I just want to say Bridget, thank you for complimenting
my very direky Star Wars Boba Fette sweater. So it's
actually a big deal because it's a gift from my
older brother and he's never given me a gift in
my entire life. So yeah, I know, I'm like, all right,
hit the mark because he was like I knew this,
this is for you. There's no way I couldn't get this.
(05:59):
You are correct, Thank you. Yeah, it's a very antie gift.
Kudos to the brother. Yes, yes, and Annie has is
it now? Six five six different Star Wars Christmas waters,
none of which I purchased. Um, So people do know
me very well. Um. Yes, So I'm trying to get
(06:20):
through the catalog while I can, while it's acceptable, even
though it's mostly just me in my apartment. So I
guess it doesn't matter. I could wear them whenever. All right,
so we are also excited to discuss the topic he
bought today, bridgett um. So what are we going to
be discussing? It feels like, let's go. I know, It's
(06:41):
like it's like it feels like a little bit of
a gift for once. I am excited to share we
have a little bit of positive news for people who
have uterus is Can you imagine? That feels like all
we ever get is like, oh, we're bad news, we're
bad news. But actually, just yesterday, the Food and Drug
Administration the FDA announced a permanent repeal of the in
person dispensing requirement for I actually have the pronunciation spelled out.
(07:05):
If I buch of this pronunciation, please don't come after me.
Myth A prity zone one of the two medications used
in medication abortion a k a. The abortion pill. So, uh,
pretty exciting, it's a it's a I'm cautiously optimistic and
pretty comfortable saying like it's a good thing. We'll discuss
(07:25):
like why it's sort of like not the best thing,
but it's definitely a step in the right direction, and
so I'm comfortable, Like these days you gotta take a
w however you can get it. So I'm comfortable saying
this is a small win for abortion rights, which is
such a yeah a sentence my brain did not know
how to process. But I was looking over your outline,
(07:46):
I was like, right, I feel the same way. I
really feel maybe we've just so traumatized previously and we're
all on edge that I'm like, yeah, but but what
like just way eating but instead of celebrating, hey, this
is good news because it is a step forward. But
(08:09):
totally as someone who is pretty involved in the fight
for abortion rights and access and reproductive justice, I know
exactly that that weird feeling you're describing winds but qualified winds,
and then sort of like well, and then ultimately I
guess I feel that we shouldn't have to be fighting
for this stuff in general, like we should. Everybody deserves
(08:29):
to have autonomy over their own body, access to healthcare,
access to abortion care if they need it. Even the
conversation I feel is we shouldn't even have to be
fighting for stuff like this. But you know, in the
fight for abortion rights, that can be very negative, very
taking many, many many steps back, and so I do
think it's important to, you know, highlight when we have
(08:50):
something that is not awful happening. And this is actually
something I think I've seen it in the headlines. And
(09:11):
I know you and I talked about it bridget a
while back, several years ago, and I not I didn't
really know much about the abortion pill. So can you
can you tell us what it is and how it works?
Absolutely so? According to Planned Parenthood, the so called abortion
pill is a popular name for two different medicines used
to end a pregnancy, miffor pretty zone and another one
(09:35):
myceo pros atoll. So pregnancy needs the hormone called pro
estrogen to grow normally, and miffor pretty zone blocks your
protty's own pro estrogen. And so basically it's just a
combination of pills that you take to induce an abortion. Yes,
and I know, like you know, this conversation isn't only
limited to the US, was it Ireland? Had it somewhere?
(09:56):
Had a similar kind of conversation Scotland and you and
I we did that whole episode about um the changing
rules in the UK because the United States and so
this is definitely a global issue and issue where like
other countries and other regions, I have have different standards of
the legality of how pregnant people can access this kind
of medication to get the abortion care they need. Yeah,
(10:19):
And one of the things that we talked about in
that episode was also telemedicine UM and being able to
get it and like from the comfort of your own home,
and how important that was for a lot of people
for this UM. So, can you share the history of
this kind of abortion care via telemedicine in the US? Totally?
(10:40):
So telemedicine if you don't know what that is, it's
basically when you access your doctor through the internet, through
your phone through video conferencing. That's kind of like the
thing for me that makes this kind of a tech
story is that people have been relying on that kind
of technology enabled healthcare for a really long time. So
abortion via telemedicine has been available in the US. It's
around two thousand and eight when the first formal program began.
(11:03):
An eye love, a patient and one clinic can confer
via video conference with a doctor in another clinic and
then they would get their pills to induce an abortion.
And that video conferencing element that satisfied a federal requirement
that a doctor had to dispense the medication to induce
an abortion in a clinic office or hospital. And so
that was a real instance where technology bridged that gap.
(11:26):
That's satisfied this federal requirement that a doctor dispense I'm
using quotes around that this medication. And so there are
so many reasons why that would be a huge deal
for people who are pregnant or really anybody looking for
any kind of healthcare, because if you're someone who lives
in a rural community or a remote community, you can't
always get to a clinic, maybe there's not one close.
(11:47):
Let's say you don't have a car. Let's say you're
just a busy person in a lot on your plate
and you can't physically go see a doctor. Telemedicine really
is this thing that can really bridge that gap and
bring the healthcare that folks need right into their homes.
And so huge, huge deal. Unfortunately, opponents responded pretty quickly,
prohibiting abortion via telemedicine in twenty states. In the US,
(12:11):
the FDA regulates medication abortion under a set of rules
called the Risk Evaluation and Medication Strategy or r e
m S, which determines how and which doctors can provide
abortion toils to patients. There was this really interesting paper
called sixteen years of over Regulation, Time to Unburden my
bras published in twenty seventeen in the New England Journal
of Medicine. UM. We're leading clinicians and public health experts
(12:34):
argued that the FDA restrictions were medically unnecessary, and a
c l U attorneys noted that the leading medical groups,
including the American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, support making
abortion bills available by prescription at pharmacies. UM. And here's
a really good quote from one of the doctors. He says,
overwhelming medical evidence and decades of clinical experience show medication
(12:54):
abortion to be a safe and effective method to end pregnancy.
There are simply no medical justifications these restrictions, and they
create a needless and harmful burden for women seeking in
this care. And I think that really sums up I
feel what this conversation is about. It's about what happens
when there are needless and undo burdens that separate people
from the medical care and including abortion care that they
(13:17):
need right and and one of the things that happens
is that people who who need an abortion, who want
an abortion resort to if they have these undue burdens.
Are these obstacles two less than reliable, perhaps less than safe,
like online places where they can get these medications? Right, Yeah,
(13:41):
so this actually really makes me sad. It's one of
those things where I feel again, these burdens make people
resort to things that are not always safe. In a
study called Exploring the Feasibility of Obtaining mithripritizone and me
so Protosol from the Internet, Alizabeth Raymond, a senior medical
(14:01):
associate at the research organization Genuity, googled phrases like by
abortion pills online, and the researchers ended up ordering eighteen
of the pill combinations from sixteen different websites, none of
which required a prescription. The pills usually came from India,
which there is a large generic drug industry there, and
the shipments usually call sur around like a hundred and ten,
three and sixty dollars and they took about three days
(14:24):
to three weeks to arrive. And so basically they found
that these products they were getting when they would they
would google things like abortion pills online, we're just kind
of sketchy. They would have typos that would be language
mistranslations in the in the packages. UM. In one instance,
the pills arrived with the blister packs had been broken,
and the researchers think that was done intentionally because they
(14:46):
didn't want someone to be like, oh, I think there's
abortion pills in this package, so they would break the
blister packs those things that keep pills from cracking UM
before sending them. And even more worryingly, none of these
pills came with in auctions for use and so just
like very sketchy, but you can see the kinds of
things that people resort to when these burdens are put
(15:08):
in place to keep them from the abortion care that
they need. Right, I feel like this is just talking
in a different way of what was happening in the
early pre row versus weight in trying to find solutions
the best they can, especially for those who can't afford
access in any way at all. Just not being able
(15:28):
to pay a hundred dollars I'm assuming in a lot
of things, when you start realizing that price is too
good to be true, it probably is. And when we
talk about especially for healthcare and reproductive care, we already know, yeah,
because people want this to fail, that people are not
going to look and try to stop these these really
(15:49):
sketchy situations, which is infuriating because that has put so
many people with us in danger, and so many people
who are in a place that they cannot go to doctors,
they cannot even award tell in medicine, even though that's
a better access, thank goodness, it's a step up. But
we have things like kind amendment that prevents even trying
to access it for those who can't afford these types
(16:10):
of solutions that should already been existing. As you had
said earlier, Oh absolutely, You've reminded me of one of
my favorite quotes from one of my idols, Shortly Chisholm.
She says, no matter what men think, abortion is the
fact of life. Women have always had them. They always
have and they always will. Are they going to have
good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be
reserved for the rich or the poor? Women go to quacks?
And I feel like that really sums it up. You know,
(16:32):
this idea that when you know, Shortly chis Almo was
talking about this in the seventies, and here we are
in still having this conversation about whether or not people
who don't have access or influence or financial means. Are
we going to say that it's okay for them to
have to access abortion care through sketchy means, via quacks,
(16:54):
via like pills that maybe aren't super you know, on
the level. And I think the answer should be no.
Everybody does deserves medical care. Everybody deserves abortion care if
that's what they need. And it makes me so sad that,
just like you said, it's kind of an updated version
of the same conversation we've been having since the sixties
and seventies, and it's so depressing in that regards here
(17:15):
to put a dark cloud everything you can always count
on you. I feel like we need a sound effect
like the More you Know, But it's like Samantha's dark cloud.
I think you should be like d work on that later.
This also reminds me of because a lot of what
you talk about, Bridget has to do with, yes, the
Internet and misinformation and disinformation. And I know we've had
(17:37):
conversations around CPCs or crisis pregnancy centers and how when
you'll type you know, where do I get in abortion?
A lot of times the results will be like the
first results will be um d C PCs, and I
can just imagine for people trying to get access to
to this medication, the same kind of issue there, and
then on top of that people have been arrested. Correct. Oh, absolutely,
(18:01):
so the s I a legal team, a group of
lawyers who specialized in people who have induced their own abortions,
knows of twenty one people who have been arrested or
prosecuted for ending their pregnancies outside of this medical setting
that was required, you know, in terms of medication abortion
or helping someone else do it. Um. This actually might
even be undercounted since they rely on news reports such
(18:22):
fact these cases. The charges brought against people who self
abord can range from child abuse, the abuse of a corpse,
or failure to report death. Now, to be clear, none
of the women were prosecuted for buying abortion pills specifically,
but they note that buying pills online or even googling
phrases like buy abortion pills online, can leave a paper
trail that can be used as evidence against them in
a trial. And so this is not something that is
(18:45):
abstract like we in this country, people have been prosecuted
for trying to induce abortions on their own via pills
they get online. UM. A famous case in twenty fifteen,
Indiana woman named Pervy Patel was sentenced to twenty years
in prison her feet aside after she allegedly used abortion
pills that she ordered online. Prosecutors claimed that her fetus
(19:06):
had been quote born alive and that she allowed it
to die, but later her conviction was overturned on appeal.
So again we are talking about very real circumstances where
this this right to access abortion care via pills via
tele medicine online has been really a fraud thing that
(19:28):
people have been prosecuted for trying to do. And you know,
we have all of these instances where people have subjected
themselves to unsafe, sketchy abortion pills because of the undue
burdens that have been put in place to prevent them
from getting access to the care they need. The case
for the woman in Indiana, even though it's not related,
(19:50):
kind of brings back the memories of what just happened
in Alabama recently with a woman who lost the fetus
wanting to have this baby, not trying to have an abortion,
but got prosecuted with those same types of charges for
neglect of a fetus. And I'm like, we all were
horrified and had it not been publicized, she probably would
(20:11):
still have remained in jail or prison. And it also
takes me to what's happening in Texas as the Supreme
Court is now allowing the bounty law. That's what I'm
calling it. I know that's not what it's actually called
for it to go. And I'm wondering how this is
going to affect, uh, if people are trying to access
abortion pills, and then we are you already said I
believe that twenty states are not allowing for this type
(20:32):
of access in anyway. So I'm guessing Texas is one
of those. I'm on SI guessing Georgia is to that.
How this is going to affect even more so in
trying to prosecute uh, those with yours or those who
are helping trying to get access at all. Yeah, it's
a great question, and I think it really underscores just
what scary dire times we are in. You know, I
(20:55):
remember talking to my mom about, you know, when she
was coming of age, protesting for you know, abortion on
her campus, trying to get access to birth control pills,
and she once told me she was like, oh, when
I was doing all of that back then, I knew
at least when I had a daughter, she wouldn't have
to sort of fight these same fights, that these fights
(21:16):
would be over and done with at the time my
daughter was here, well talk about, you know, predictions that
didn't come true. She was wrong. Here I am her
adult daughter, still having to deal with this kind of stuff.
And so we are in a really scary time for
abortion access for anybody who cares about abortion access, and
that should really be everybody, everybody, regardless of gender, should
(21:38):
care about this. And so I agree with you. I
I think that sometimes I'll see, like I think it
was Chris Hayes who tweeted something, and I like Chris Hayes,
and I'm not I'm not trying to like get down
on him, but he tweeted about I think the Texas
abortion bill, like, oh, I think that we're going to
see miscarriages being criminalized next. And it's like, I hate
to break it to you, Chris Hayes, but where there happening.
(22:02):
You know, this is exactly that same level of like,
oh my god, we're still fighting for access, We're still
trying to have this conversation about bodily autonomy for those
with uterus is those who are non binary, like trying
to figure out how to even have rights at all.
Like honestly, seeing the news as I talked about it earlier,
(22:23):
I was like, but but waiting for you know, they
had to drop waiting for Oh no, it's gonna go
fall apart. I'm trying to figure out how even how
the FDA even came to this point, How did we
get here, which is amazing, but how well. I actually
have an answer for you, which is like, as much
as I hated COVID, we kind of have COVID to
(22:43):
thank for this important change. And so this new change,
to be clear, um, it's not going to impact everyone
on every state, like you said, but the reason why
we have it is because of COVID restrictions. And so,
during the pandemic, medical groups filed a lawsuit asking that
the in person dispensing requirement be left did because the
pandemic meant that patients were faced with a greater risk
(23:03):
of being infected um with coronavirus if they were visiting
clinics in person to get pills, and so a judge
granted that request this that summer, but after a challenge
by the Trump administration. Of course, the Supreme Court reinstated
the restriction. In March, medical organizations tried again right into
President bid An end Vice President Harris. In April, the
FDA decided not to enforce the in person requirement for
(23:25):
the duration of the pandemic and allowed, uh, these pills
to be mailed to folks. And again yesterday, the big
decision is that that change, which at that point was temporary,
is going to be made permanent. And so, you know,
the pandemic. I hate it, I hate it obviously, but
this is one of those things where I think that
the people who were fighting for these regulars this regulation
(23:45):
change really saw a way to be like, you know,
it doesn't make sense to ask people to go in
person to get the abortion care they need, particularly during
a pandemic, and then being like and also, shouldn't we
just end it all together? You know, I really appreciate
it them kind of like the strategy of this, yeah, yeah,
you know, we gotta find your like you said, your
(24:06):
winds and your chances where you can and if it's
a pandemic, well, so could you go into just a
(24:28):
bit more like what exactly this this ruling is means
in terms of like, yeah, the states and how how
it's like specifically impacting different states and just what does
it all mean virg Totally, I want to make clear that,
like it is important to know that this will not
impact everyone in every state. As you said, in nineteen
(24:50):
states and mostly in the South and the Midwest, telemedicine
visits for abortion are banned, and so that really you know,
there's really no change in those states. And and and then
you know because everything is awful, and that because you know,
the powers that be are constantly chipping away at our
riots and are our access to abortion care. Um, we
(25:11):
do believe that conservative states are expected to pass other
laws to further curtail the access to abortion pills. And
so even though again I feel like this is a win,
I want to be clear that is not a win
that impacts everybody. And so this means that people who
live in states that do not allow telemedicine for abortion
must travel to a state that does, although and this
(25:31):
is kind of a weird point, they do not have
to visit a clinic. They may be in any location
within that state for their telehealth visit, even inside of
a car. They may receive pills at any address in
that state. So again, it just seems like such a
weird obviously both burden to be like, well, if you're
(25:52):
in this state that does not allow for telemedicine appointments
for abortion pills, you can't get them. But if you
drive to a state does allow them, you're going to
sit in the Wendy's parking lot and have a telemedicine
and visit over your phone in your car, and then
that's all good. That again, it just seems like it's
really reveals that this is about putting ridiculous burdens and
(26:14):
barriers to prevent people from getting the abortion care they need.
Like what if you don't have a car, What if
you don't have the financial means to drive to another state,
what if you have to work or already have kids
and don't really have the ability to just like take
a trip like this. It seems like such an obvious
way to just prevent people from getting the care they need.
And like, to me, it's just like my bullsh alarm
(26:37):
goes off, like this is clearly just like let's just
make it hard for people to get the care they need. Yeah,
I mean, this is such a like a much more
superficial problem but it reminds me of when I was
a kid. Um we would drive to the border of
Alabama and where I'm located in Georgia, and we'd right
in the border. They'd be all these fireworks. So I
(26:58):
knew you were gonna say that we would had all
these fireworks, and but if they're illegal in Georgia, my
parents would be like, you can't sell them, but we
can shoot them off. I'm like, that makes no sense
to me, That's absolutely right. I was thinking the same
thing with like alcohol cells, you know, within the Southern States,
like they were very restrictive up unto a certain point,
so people would cross borders to go get alcohol. So
(27:21):
for a long time, Georgia couldn't sell it on Sundays,
so people would go to Alabama like that would have
access to it. Again, this is very like, less harmful
than any o the stuff, but it is also very
reminiscent of the fact that they are shutting down clinics
in certain states and so therefore we have to access
clinics maybe two or three states away in general, And honestly,
(27:44):
we've been watching what's happening with Poland as well as
they have had one of the harshest restrictions and bands
um in the world as well, and it's fairly new
and them talking about the fact that they're having to
do essentially underground networks to get access to pills and
to any type of reproductive help access by traveling across
country border lines in order to get access. And yeah,
(28:06):
that's exactly what's happening in that level of state wise
for us. That yes, for some of these and they're
gonna make it so difficult that you will you will
have to plan as if, like you have to be
away for a week to get a pill um in
order to get any kind of access, and if you
can't afford it, sorry, then you're not allowed it. Yeah,
(28:27):
And so just like what's happening in Poland, we're seeing
some a bit of that here in the United States.
So states like California and New York states where you
can access abortion pills via telemedicine, they've taken steps in
recent years to further solidify access to abortion and they're
expected to increase the availability of telemedicine for abortion pills,
specifically to provide opportunities for folks and other states with
(28:47):
these kinds of restrictions to obtain abortion pills by traveling
to their state to get them. And so we are
seeing this thing where other states that allow this are
probably going to be stepping up so that people specifically
so that pole who live in states that you know,
they can't access this can get them. And so it
is it is a little bit like that. And you know,
even though this is a win, we shouldn't have to
(29:09):
be doing any of this just to get abortion care.
Like nobody should have to jump through ridiculous hoops to
get medical care that they need, and so this is
no different. And so I think of this as a win,
but I just I have to keep harping on that
that we shouldn't have to be fighting this way and
like celebrating these sort of like incremental tooth and nail
winds for something that like should just be a right
(29:31):
that everybody should have. Yeah, and these pill based abortions
are actually pretty common, right, That's right, And so especially
in the pandemic. The tele Abortion Project, which is a
research program authorized by the FDA to conduct tele medicine
appointments and male pills, has heard from many people and
they're saying that they have really seen from folks using
(29:54):
their services, that people are really stepping up the amount
that they are seeking these kinds of services since the pandemic.
Elizabeth Raymond. She said that of the two thousand and
eighties three abortions provided under the program between July October one,
more than a third, seven hundred and fifteen, occurred during
the pandemic, and that really mirrors with the CDC is found.
(30:14):
The CDC found in twenty in some states, including Indiana, Kansas,
and Minnesota, the methodic pill based abortions accounted for the
majority of abortions according to state Health Department records, and
the CDC also found that seventy of abortions occurred before
the ten weeks gestation period, suggesting that there are many, many,
many more people who would probably choose abortion pills over
(30:36):
an in clinic procedure if they could um Another great resource,
Abortion on Demand, which is an online platform that provides
position supported medication. Abortion Care Online, said that they have
seen a lot of growing interests in pill based abortions
since the pandemic as well, and so it makes complete
sense that at a time when it's like not safe
to leave your house, that people would be turning to
(30:56):
the internet to get the kind of care that they need,
and even beyond abortion. You know, I when the pandemic started,
actually very early into the pandemic, This is like a
little bit embarrassing. I had a assist on my butt
cheek and my doctor had switched to telemedicine only, and
I remember thinking like, well, certainly she's not gonna want
(31:17):
to like have me take down my pants and show
her my butt cheek over you know, face time. And
that's exactly what I did, and I get the care
that I needed. And so obviously we should not be
putting unfair barriers in place when I think that the
pandemic really showed how important it is to use the
technology that we have to access healthcare right. And I
(31:39):
know there are stories you can find out. There are
people who said, like why it was so important to
them and why they wanted to be in like they're
kind of you know, home or where they felt comfortable
when they did this. Um. But also unfortunately a lot
of times going to an abortion clinic can also not
feel safe because there can be people protesting outside and
that makes it much more stressful experience. And and speaking
(32:04):
of I'm sure, um not everyone was happy about about
this news. Oh, of course not so. Anti choice groups
were not happy about this announcement. The Susan B. Anthony
Foundation said the Biden administration today moved to weaken the
long standing federal safety regulations against mail order abortion drugs,
designed to protect women from serious health risks and potential abuse.
(32:27):
So here's my question about this. First of all, how
and why would someone be abusing these abortion pills. It's
not like they like, take it from me. They do
not get you high, the side effects that you might
have or like mild nausea. I don't really think that
people are like, oh, I can't wait to get these
drugs to induce mild nausea. It's gonna be a wild time.
Can't wait to abuse them. So already have some questions there,
(32:50):
and then doctors make it clear that pill based abortions
are safe. A research program at the FDA found that
of the one thousand, one fifties seven abortions that occurred
through the program between September, we're completed without requiring any
follow up procedure, patients made seventy visits to emergency rooms
or urgent care centers, with ten instances of serious complications
(33:13):
to study reported, and so that's really like pretty good
in terms of, you know, the safety of this, Like
doctors have made it very clear that pill based abortions
are not unsafe and telemedicine abortions are safe for all
the reasons that you've just said. Any they can be
more convenient. Maybe you don't want to go to an
abortion clinic where there's going to be people shouting at
you when you're already stressed. Uh, maybe you have to work,
(33:36):
or maybe you can't afford to get to a clinic,
or like, there are so many reasons why someone would
choose to you know, access the care they need through telemedicine,
and it's there's not really a lot of reasons why
we are regulating it in this way. And one thing
I also want to point out is that this change
is obviously, like very long overdue, especially when you consider
(33:56):
that out of the twenty different prescription medications currently regulated
by the FDA, these abortion bills are the only one.
The only one the f d A previously required to
be dispensed in person but permitted patience to self administer.
And so that really, I mean, like, of all of
these medications, this like why is this the only one
(34:18):
that had this unfair burden to access. This is one
of the only medications that are given to people with
uteruses and those who need reproductive health like essentially, this
is why we know these answers, and I find that
fascinating because as we're looking for the future, and of course,
I think part of the reason and any and I
(34:39):
are both like hesitant in celebrating because we are in
Georgia run by current Governor Brian kimp who has absolutely
put into place every restriction that you can think of
when it comes to accessing any kind of health care
in general. And I say that very loudly, as he
is threatening to shut down any connections with federal assistance
when it comes to coverage in the state at this
(34:59):
point in time. And I think one of the things
that we are talking about and trying to be very
loud about, is that these groups are not focusing on
the women. Obviously, it is a literal fight about what
is moral in their eyes, and for a Bible belt
area of such as Georgia, it is a constant battle
trying to see how to combat uh these really generalized,
(35:23):
slash false narratives of the harming women as if they're
truly trying to save women, what is actually they're trying
to prevent women to get good access and a good
health care at all. So it's kind of one of
those moments of like how And I guess honestly, the
pandemic has shown a lot of light about the fact
(35:44):
that when it comes to morality and conspiracies, they don't
care if it's from science. They don't care about the truth,
as we have learned, um, and I find it interesting
that as we are trying to focus on this, what
what are some ways that we can maybe uh advocate
(36:07):
for ourselves, for people like Annie and I who are
stuck in Georgia right now, for more access to these things.
Oh what a good question. I mean, first of all,
I just have to honor what you just said, because
we are at a time where it is scary and
the threat is real. Anybody who told you like, oh,
they're not going to overturn row, like you'll be fine,
(36:28):
Like we're not going to go backward, they were incorrect.
They were telling you something that wasn't true. And I
I I'm sorry to have to say that, but here's
here's the reality of where we are and it's it's
very real and it's very scary, and I completely understand
the urge to be like, well, this is happening. It's inevitable.
Our rights are going to be rolled back. Women are
(36:51):
going to die, people are going to die. This is
going to be bad. Anybody who's feeling that that exhaustion
and malaise, I'm with you. I get it. All I
can say is that now is not the time to retreat.
Now is the time to dig in. And so I
have to really lift up and amplify all the amazing
people who are doing the work on the ground of
(37:12):
protecting abortion access. I want to shout out a few
people right now. My colleague at Ultra Violet Sonia Spoo,
who is incredible. Um, my friend Renee, who is doing
a lot of work around abortion storytelling and just like
helping people understand how many different people are impacted by
abortion care and need abortions, and like someone that you
love has had an abortion. And then if you're looking
like what can I do? Absolutely, now is the time
(37:36):
to be supporting abortion funds around the country. If you've
got a local abortion fund in your and your community,
throw them some money. If you've got some extra money.
You can go to abortion Funds dot org and find out.
You know, people are doing a lot of organizing of
making sure that people can still get the access to
care that they need, So definitely support those folks. Also
urge your lawmaker to support the Women's Health Protection Act.
(37:57):
You can go to we Are Ultra Violet dot org
and find our petition demanding the Women's Health Protection Act
be passed because we need Now is the time that
we need to be fighting with all that we've got.
I know it is scary, I know it's hard. I
know we've all been through a lot, but now is
the time to really dig in. And I think, like, like,
one of the things that really gives me hope in
(38:18):
this fight are things like abortion care networks, are things
like this, individuals doing what they can, and so I
know that we got us are. The government might always
not always have our back, our lefted officials might not
always have our back, but we have our own backs.
And so this fight is hard and long, but I
know I know that we got we got each other,
and so that's the one thing that really gives me hope.
(38:40):
So Will said, I think I needed it, because yes,
I've been very We all are very concerned and worried.
But that was a nice a nice vote on this
our last recording with you one and some excellent advice
as always, hanging there, Yes, hanging there, we can do this.
(39:04):
We could do this. Low key there. That's that's what
I call you, Samantha Loki. Yes, yes, well, thank you
as always Bridget for joining us, UM and bringing this topic.
(39:26):
It is always such a delight to have you have fun.
You're about to leave for your your weirdo Christmas. Correct,
that's right. In a matter of hours, I will be
wearing a fur hat like probably pretty drunk in the wood.
It's important in this whole conversation. Yes, yes, have a
(39:49):
lovely time. Um. Where can the listeners find you? Well,
you can find me all over the web. I'm at
Bridget Marie on Twitter and at Bridget Marie in DC
on Instagram. Please follow me. I'm trying to get my
followers up, hope. Please follow, and you can follow me
on my I Heart Radio podcast. There are no girls
on the internet where we have all kinds of interesting
conversations about culture and technology and gender and race and
(40:12):
the internet. So please please check it out. Yes, go
check it out. It is fantastic and as always, if
you want to contact us, you can our email Stefan
your mom Stuff I hurt me dot com. You can
find us on Twitter at Momstuff podcast or Instagram and
Stuff I Never Told You. Thanks as always start super
producer Christina, thank you and thanks you for listening Stuff
Whenever Told You his production by Heart Radio one podcast
(40:32):
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