January 11, 2023 • 31 mins
Unique, quirky and subversive, zines have a long feminist history. We flip through the pages of the past and future of zines, and discuss how people are fighting to diversify and preserve zines.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Amantha, and welcome to stuff
I'll never told to your protection of I Heart Radio,
and I have to give you some behind the scenes.
I'm kind of laughing right now because we have outlines
that we work off of, right and um, I admitted
(00:29):
in a passed episode, my s key isn't working my laptop,
which is one of the most painful keys to not
be working right. And instead of fixing it, I've put
everything off lately because I've been so busy. I've I
have a lot of interesting workarounds, and I can tell
by this outline that I was very frustrated already. That's
(00:54):
so funny. I'm sorry. It just cracked me up. I've
found some ways around it, but it's not been the
easiest thing to do. I will say in one of
the outlines, you definitely misspelled my name, and that's the
other thing. As I said, my spell check isn't working,
(01:17):
and I was like, okay, yeah, you can like see
my descent into anger in this outline. And another thing
about this outline is it was originally a Monday Mini.
I do think it's gonna be a shorter one, but
every time we say that, it never works out, but
we'll see. But I was researching it and I think
we could come back and revisit it. Honestly, we're talking
(01:38):
about zines. Originally I was specifically talking about fanzines, So
we are going to talk about zines at large in
this one. UM, do you have any experience with znes, Samantha,
I will say I did not know what zines were
until I moved to Atlanta. I think that was around
two thousand six, two thousand seven, UM, And I always
(01:59):
called it lines, which tells you how little I knew
about it and trying to understand it because there was
a whole like h a t L collective group that
gets together and does them, and I was like, what
is this? It's really fascinating, and then it got really
like trendy. Yes, so I was very scared of it. Yeah,
(02:21):
and we're going to talk about that because they are
experiencing a boom right now. I didn't realize resurging. Are
you kidding? It's been fifteen years, Well it's been longer
than that, but they are experiencing a resurgence. I don't
have much experience with scenes. I had one nerd one
that I just kind of found at a thrift store once,
and I really liked that one. It was like mostly
(02:43):
Star Wars but a bunch of other stuff, and I
just happened to find it. It was really cool. And
then Atlanta used to have Dope Girls Zens. Well, see,
I get confused with Zene designed too, but I'm going
with scenes because magazine and I feel like that's what
it's got to be. Right. I think you're right. I
just really could not grasp it. Um. Yeah, and up
Girls are still around, but yeah, but yeah, I don't
(03:06):
think they don't do the zene anymore, or at least
the last I heard they had retired it. They might
have brought it back, but they are still around. Yes,
it was very popular. But one of the reasons I
wanted to talk about this was I got this inkling
that something was up a couple of weeks ago because
people started posting fan fiction that they'd written literal decades ago. Uh,
(03:30):
and I would say like, hey, I wrote this in
nineteen whatever, here it is, and I was just kind
of like, that's interesting. I mean, yeah, I appreciate it.
And then, as you know, mar Jade, who is this
Star Wars character from Legends that I'm very, very excited
to talk about on fictional women around the world. She
started popping up a lot more and I was like,
why are people talking about Marra Jade? Not that they shouldn't,
(03:54):
but it's just kind of like, huh, I wonder if
if there's a reason for this. It turns out there is.
There is a movement that is primarily led by women
to digitize old fanzines, to preserve them, to save them
because otherwise it's just gonna be lost. Um, and it's
a whole thing. It's really really interesting. I also, I
(04:18):
am currently reading one of the best. Like I know
I've said it before, but there's some fan fiction read
and you're like, yes, this could be published and be
better than half of the the stuff they're putting out, maybe
even more than that. And I'm reading one right now.
There's a result of this and it is so good.
It's like reading a book. It's all so good. But yes,
since we have been on a tech kick lately, I'm
(04:39):
always designed to talk about fan fiction and this is
happening right now. We thought we would go over it
fairly briefly, because honestly, it was a much bigger topic
than I thought it was gonna be uh. You can
see the episodes we did on fan fiction. You can
also see the recent ish many that we did that
was called a love letter a fan fiction but was
(05:00):
primarily about Archive of our Own, which is one of
the biggest fan fiction sites, which is we're going to
talk about in this conversation, right, Okay, so let's talk
about this. What are zenes not zience smith not science?
Having to repeat this to myself, Well, they encompass a
lot of things. But here are a couple of key
things involved. One is that that typically self published or
(05:21):
published by an independent, small publisher. This has mainly been
a way for marginalized folks to exercise their voices more
freely outside of mainstream media. So as a part of that,
they are usually not published in large numbers and are
for a smaller communities, and are frequently very niche um
and they aren't commercial. There's often a lot of contributions
(05:43):
and connections to the zene world, which was what I
saw in Atlanta. Yeah, so a lot of people, you know,
well if you if I have a zene and you
have zeene, will work together and collaborate and there's a
lot Yeah, I remember that yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, And
I always feel like I have caveat things zines aren't commercial.
(06:03):
But I do think we have seen with the popularity,
magazines try to get in on that, as always happens
in capitalism. So I think there could be an argument
made that some of them are commercial, but like at
their heart, at their core, they're not commercial. Okay, So
a brief history depending on how you define zines, because
(06:28):
I even wrestled with this and I don't know too
much about them, but I was like, doesn't go back
way further than this, but most people say they go
back to the nineteen thirties with science fiction zines, so
fans trying to like collaborate with short stories and share
their fandom with each other. The zine is short for
fan zine. That was the original use. And remember this
(06:51):
was before the internet and zines were away for fans
to connect with each other. It was sort of like,
it's always interesting these iterations of techno oology because I've
heard people who were like one generation before me talk
about like old message boards online and that was like
the precursor, and then the precursor to that is zines
and and so yeah, it was kind of like a
(07:11):
way to connect. Um. They these fans would speculate with
each other, they would share theories about their favorite works. Um,
they would work together on arts and stories, including fan fiction. Yes,
but they were also sometimes called per zines or personal
znes um, which I love, and they were often handmade. Right.
(07:34):
That is again, this is what I know Atlanta, and
I did not know that it had spanned so far
back because it was so niche and for again, the
ones that I saw in the early two thousand's were
more about music and art, so it was a little different,
and it was very hip culture. Yeah. So yeah, zines
(07:59):
all a search of growth in the fifties and sixties
against kind of like what I'm saying with counterculture movements
that were eager to support smaller, independent publications and the
underground press, and also saw it as a way to
connect with others with similar ideas, a space where people
to have a voice outside of mainstream media. Mini signs
(08:21):
from this time combined art and politics and activism and
writing in experimental and new and eclectic ways, which that's
carried off. That's how I knew it more so than
the fan zines. Right. I think you also just said signs,
but we're leaving it in because I think it's hilarious
having a day. Okay, well, yeah, that's one of my
(08:45):
and we're going to talk about this more. But that's
one of the things people keep saying. Why znes are
so unique is that you don't know what you're gonna
get in them all. They're like a really unique random
while not necessarily random, but just a lot of different
things that you can't really anticipate you open it up
and look at it. And two year points. Punk music
(09:18):
zines really took off in the nineteen eighties, often combining
music and politics, and it offered something unique because these
znes really captured the whole aesthetic and vibe of a subculture. Uh.
And the nineties is when feminist scenes like Riot Girl
really came onto the scene, and this was a reaction
(09:40):
to sexism within these punk music scenes and within the
writing of punk music, and it went on to inspire
so many other znes written by women and girls about feminism,
often in conjunction with something very specific, which all coincided
with third wave eminism. Here's a quote about it from
(10:02):
the Sally Bingham Collection at Duke University's Rubinstein Library. Feminist
practice emphasizes the sharing of personal experience as a community
building tool, and zines proved to be the perfect medium
for reaching out to young women across the country in
order to form the revolution girl style. And yet forty
thousand zs are being published by in North America, I believe,
(10:28):
right right, Yeah, so you might be thinking, but wait,
I've heard so much about the death of print, and
in terms of the environment, that might be a good thing.
But zines are still out there and have recently seen
some major growth, and much of it is in the
arena of intersectional feminism, led by more women, queer folks,
(10:49):
and people of color. However, just like with most things,
there is still work to be done in terms of inclusivity.
One of the big criticisms of the nineties feminist zines
is that they were largely done and based around middle
class white women, and that is changing, especially with external
pressure on the publishing world. But major issues that were
(11:12):
compounded by things like the pandemic still remain. So like,
it was seeing this really great growth in terms of inclusivity,
and then the pandemic happens, and also capitalism ruins everything,
and some big magazines are blurring the lines between magazine
and zine, especially by copying this aesthetic of things like
riot girls try to appear like they are that thing,
(11:33):
when that's sort of the opposite of what zines are about.
And as part of the whole thing behind the popularity
of zines amongst women and marginalised folks is that you
can talk about feminism or whatever really without an ad
about plastic surgery or something in your publication, which you know,
if you want it, all for it. But the history
(11:54):
magazines when it comes to selling women a very specific
image of how they should look is not good. So
there's that. It also gives creators the space to write
about other things than women's issues, are race issues, which
a lot of the writers reported like I'm tired of
being asked only to write about this. I want to
write about fun things too, or like not that those
(12:15):
can't be fun, but like you know, right, and I
know a lot of it was like I love music
of all kinds and they only asked me to do
the specific genre of music and it's not what I'm
interested in, Like I've saw that, Like they would talk
about things like that again, like dope girls, their whole
thing was like, let's talk about we kind of well
that that wasn't their whole thing, but like bringing it
in and like normalizing what that looks like, um, in
(12:37):
a culture that is so uptight at that point in time.
But yeah, it's very interesting to see all of that.
And again, what I witnessed was uh, people taking space
and creating their own art, and a lot of the zines,
not Signs, not of the zines that I saw at
that time, interweaved their artwork in the story. So it's
really interesting to see. Yeah. Yeah, that's something else I've
(13:01):
loved about recent fan fiction, which we are going to
get to, I promise, But I love when they do
that where they have like art interspersed in the story,
Like I love them. Um. And I'm really going to
rue the day if it is Zions and not Zene Samantha.
But it was me, I promise. It just makes sense
to me. I'm pretty sure, right. I think I was
(13:22):
corrected when I first said, Okay, well we'll see. We
could have just looked it up, but we're too into
it now. Here's a quote from a Guardian article written
by Ruth Jamison. If modern feminism is multifaceted by nature.
There now seems to be an independently published magazine or
(13:42):
zene for every one of those faces. There's Sabbat, which
explores modern witchcraft through a feminist lens, Typical Girls, which
sets out to show there's no such thing, the women
only Zene Girls Club, female general interest mag Lira or Lyra,
and Private I meets folks satirical Aussie Mushpit as well
Right Post, the smart magazine for women burnt Roti, which
(14:05):
showcases the talent of South Asian women, Galldam, the print
version of the popular website for women of color of
the same name, and feminist indie mag's Lady Beard and
fruit Lands are amplifying women's voices, chanting female writing, and
challenging ideas about what a women's magazine can be. These
publications tap into a rich history of female protests and
(14:26):
print Here's the quote within the article. Obviously, there are
lots of women in the media, but they rarely control
every aspect of a magazine, and it's even rarer that
they own it, says Phoebe Lindsay of fruit Lands. Historically,
women have taken control of the way they are not
represented by publishing on their own terms. Think of Spare
Rib and the Riot Girls zens of the nineties. By
having our own magazine, we can control and direct every
(14:49):
element of our message. The lack of diversity in the
media is unbelievably frustrating, says Galldam's opinion editor Heather Barnett.
Galldam are changing that by providing a platform where women
and non binary people of color can write about whatever
they like. Yeah, so, the article continues. The boom in
independent magazine publishing has shown that print is not dead. Now,
(15:10):
independent women's magazines are setting the standard for a more
progressive women's media. They are changing the face of women's
magazines and have their sites set on the media as
a whole. As Connery and Taylor says, quote, the number
of women who are running independent magazines is inspiring where
everywhere getting done. It seems print is not only not dead,
it has also come back as a woman. Yes, I
(15:33):
like that. Um. And here's a quote from the Women's
Media Center. Sus Myers is a graphic designer who, along
with five other people, organizes the NYC Feminist Zine Fest,
the event that has been happening since two thousand eleven.
And offers us space to first timers and old school
zine makers to present their work and exchange ideas. The
event started with three hundred dollars raised on go fund
(15:54):
me and the purpose of quote promoting the self published
work of zisters of all genders as they explore a
variety of feminist topics through print media. The fact that
zines are quote created without any mediating influence from advertisers
is an important aspect of the forms. Meyer said, Um,
a zine can be a lot of things, and because
(16:15):
of this, it's precise definition can be wonderfully, woefully difficult
to pin down. She added, Yes, and this is one
of the things I love doing this research is there's
a lot of collections or events like this for zines,
and I would love to go. I'm pretty sure Lana
had a zine fest. I'm I'm pretty sure in the
early two thousand's they actually did, or med two thousands
they did have a zine fest, which also like what's
(16:36):
happening now? You know? You know? Many zines are available
in digital forms. Some argue that they were essentially pre
Internet versions of blogs. Others argue that the physical nature
is key to what makes a zine a zine, and
that's why one of the reasons why at least they're
experiencing a surge during the time social media, like people
(16:58):
want something kind of different where you're can be random,
it's in your hands physical. But this brings us to
why my fan fiction since was tingling, because the digital
bid is not necessarily about not offering a print option.
A lot of people are arguing it's about preserving for
future generations. So as discussed inner episode on Archive of
(17:21):
our Own or a O three, which is one of
the largest, I'm pretty sure the largest fan fiction platforms
in existence, we talked about how it's just one piece
of the nonprofit the Organization of Transformative Works, and as
part of their mission to preserve older fan fiction largely
published in fanzines, they recently launched the fanzine scan hosting
(17:43):
project in collaboration with zend um Um, and basically the
goal is to preserve these physical fan fictions on their site.
And I have seen some of the results that what
was what was happening. I was like, oh, look at this,
and a handful of my favorite authors have sort of
fallen off the map to participate in it. That was
(18:05):
another thing I saw where they'd be like, I gotta
go scan some what was What did they say, Cody
one Zines, I'll be back, And I was like, what, Okay?
But yeah, I've seen these band fiction that are decades
old and they're so well written, and I'm just like, Wow,
(18:27):
I understand why you were published, and I'm so glad
it was saved. I'm so glad I'm reading it right now.
And as mentioned before many times, most fan fiction is
created by women and other marginalized folks, which means that
those folks are largely spearheading this project. I love to
see it. For years, Zendom has been scanning and archiving
(18:48):
this material, but this new project came in part out
of frustration that ao thus technology didn't really allow for
uploading scanned fancies, which I was wondering. I was like,
can they do that? Morgan Don, who was leading the project,
described the difficulty of uploading the scans and that once uploaded,
they can't be edited and many errors are often introduced.
(19:11):
Donna was trying to upload a novel link fan fick
with this process to a OH three, but got annoyed
with it, so just put up a Google drive link
to the PDF sounds like something I would do, but
it was taken down because the link was not fan work,
which is weird. It's a link to fan work, it's
not fank actual fan work. Yes, and I have experienced
(19:36):
this whole hassle of converting a PDF. I hear you,
sees you, Yes, I really do. This led to a
whole discussion about preserving fan history, a lot of this
history in zines, and how that fell to the fans
because the fans are the ones making these things. UM.
(19:57):
Don started SEEINGDOM to take on this whole thing, uploading
and converting docs with permission. I'm going to talk about
them more in a second. UM and only a handful
of volunteers. But because of that, UM it just wasn't
working like Don wanted. Like the volunteer and the scheduling,
the organizing and all the technology, it wasn't working. So
Don reached out to Open Doors. A part of the
(20:20):
organization of Transformative works with the mission and their their
mission is by the way UM preserving quote those Spanish
projects that might otherwise be lost due to lack of time, interest,
our resources on the part of the current maintainer UH
to join in. So Dahn reached out to them. Mission
seems like it fits right with what zeemdom is trying
to do. But because of things that we've talked about
(20:41):
in that fan fiction episode on I O three of
crackdowns on like Tumbler, the shutdown of Yahoo groups where
a lot of fan fix was hosted, this process got
really really delayed, so it wasn't until I think twenty
nineteen that they started working together. Another thinging like Okay
first A OH three is also run by volunteers, and
(21:03):
one of the things we talked about in an episode
is that their technology is old, like it's not super old,
but it needs to be updated, but it's just like
gotten so out of control that they also are struggling
with that stuff. Another thing is the tech divide. It's
kind of been an issue because a lot of fanzines
were written by older people who might not be the
(21:24):
most tech savvy to scan and save their work. Um
and Another thing, and this is what I found really
fascinating and I would love to expand on this, but
people often wrote under pen names um and are hard
to find. So Don talked about like calling people and
having these you know, maybe never finding them or maybe
finding out that they had died, or maybe connecting with
(21:46):
an old relative who was so thrilled, like maybe they
had lost that relative who wrote it and was so
thrilled to have this kind of piece of like oh,
I didn't know they wrote that or whatever. Because they
can't upload them without permission. They have to get the
permission first. Uh huh. Yeah. So with this project, thousands
(22:16):
of physical fansies have been scanned. Most yeah, we're found
through Facebook groups are just reaching out to the names
they found in the zines um but there are thousands
and thousands and thousands more to go. One volunteer has
eight thousand Star Trek fanzines alone alone. And I want
to talk about this. I want to do the bigger
(22:37):
episode on this one day because it was so interesting.
But the Kirk Spock fan fiction archive was one of
the first to be imported to a OH three and
it was being run by a fan who taken on
the task of maintaining an archive of zines in that arena. Notably,
this fandom is also the source of a lot of
our more modern Spanish spaces and understanding, including slash and
(22:59):
the ripple effect that that had, and a lot of
the women were writing about why they were writing Kirk
and spok is romantic couple, and they were talking about
how they identified with spok is not belonging anywhere and
getting all this like goph for the It was just
really interesting, really really interesting to see the ripple effects
of that. Open Doors is starting to archives Ingdom's links
(23:20):
and is working with universities and other institutions to make
these znes available online to the public, which it hasn't
previously been the case, Like some universities have these collections,
but you had to be a student and go in
person to see them. Um. So that's a piece of
it too, from a article by j Castello. And this
(23:41):
is a long quote, so bear with me. It means
not being forgotten, said Maggie now Atkowska, the co editor
of Geek Elder's Speak and anthology of essays by older
women in fandom. Now Akowska herself is seventy three, and
I hope I'm not puturing your name. Um. One reason
for preserving and celebrating that history is the fact that
so many of the franchise is keyed phantom history, like
Star Trek and Star Wars have a reputation of being
(24:03):
for boys, whereas fanfic and fanzines have traditionally been a
space dominated by women. They don't think we ever existed.
They don't know that women did all these things, says
now Akawska. Julie Baza, an Australian fanzine author and publisher
who volunteers with Open Doors, also emphasizes that preservation isn't
just about making sure the best fan fiction is available
(24:24):
to readers. It's about preserving the culture and history that
got us to where we are now. It's really interesting
to get an idea of the bigger picture, she says,
what tropes are being written about and why at different times,
how have things changed. For instance, fan fiction has often
been celebrated for its ability to give writers and readers
a chance to explore their gender and sexuality. The terminology
(24:44):
has changed, with words like lemon denoting explicit sexual content
and even slash denoting male male relationships falling out of favor,
but knowing how and why they were used as important
in understanding how same sex relationships and women's sexuality we're
even more policed than they are today. At the same time,
(25:05):
preservation can also demonstrate the sheer breadth of fan works.
Baza shared some scans with me, which include a series
of haiku inspired by eighties sci fi movie Buckeru Bonzai.
For instance, when you open a fancy and you'll see cartoons,
you'll see essays, you'll see poetry, you'll see snarky little comments,
you'll see letters of comment, said now Akaska, And that's
a totally different experience than just reading one story, which
(25:28):
I love. They were kind of talking about that in
terms of, you know, like if you go to fan
fiction dot net, which is what they're talking about with
the slash. The reason we say slash is because if
you said, like Kirk and Amper sans black, that's a friendship.
If you say Kirk slash block, that is a romantic relationship.
(25:48):
But that's not everybody uses fan fiction dot net anymore, Like,
that's not how it is necessarily every site, um, although
it is still in my case that's what I usually see.
But I love that, and I love like this idea
of when you open a fanzine. It's not like when
you click a tag and you know what you're looking
for and you know what you're gonna get probably, but
(26:09):
you could get a series of my career. That's amazing.
That's amazing. Yes, yeah, wow, you just brought me back.
It really like I forgot about this. Yeah, it was cool.
It's something that I'm like, I love it, but I
would never have the courage to do it because I'm
(26:29):
not artistic. I think I actually participated in putting like
a Stanza in one. I could be making this up,
but this seems familiar, like I'm having a time, or
maybe I was just around when people did that. I
don't remember. I remember buying because I loved going to
local readings, like we have a lot of good writers
in Atlanta, and we know this. My heart has been
(26:51):
blessed with some of our writers recently a fiction including yourself,
um including there was a thing called Right Club. I
don't know they're still going, and I believe our one
of our producers, Mike John's, was a part of that.
She um, it was a big founding and beginning of that,
and I remember hearing her read uh there. So shout
out to one of the producers of I Heart and
(27:13):
our family rather um who began this and seeing different
writers go up and give an essay and have a moment.
But in that same group. They did zine clubs, and
I think they still do Actually, now that you say that,
I feel like it's been years since I attended one
of those, but I think they still do it. And
(27:34):
I know Right Club is I think a national thing,
but it's the Right Club. Atlanta was started by them, um,
and I remember them selling independently published books and independent zines.
Like now that I'm thinking about it, it's been several
years since I've attended one. They still do that, and
I love that aspect of it because it brings a
(27:55):
lot of personality, UM to these writings. And yeah, you've
really put me back, and that's in fact, I just
had to really look through Twitter because it's not as
part of your world, you don't know, which thank you
very much for bringing it back into my world. There's
one group called Queer Circle and I believe they're based
out of the UK that did a thing called a
(28:18):
t zine which they did in December, which they brought
over a hundred znes submitted by different people from all
over the world, all over the world from the queer community.
And I'm like, hell, yeah, that's this stuff like that.
It's so amazing and I forgot the impact of things
like this. Yeah. Yeah, this was a really fun one
(28:38):
to research because I kind of knew about them, but
I didn't know too much. I'm so glad that this
project is happening, that this these fanzines are getting preserved,
because I there was a lot of other Honestly, we
talked about this before, Samantha. Sometimes we just want to
quote like entire articles because it's like, Okay, yes, this
is it. But a lot of the older women they
(28:59):
interviewed were like, yeah, I don't want to I don't
want this to get lost because I think other people
will still enjoy it, and it's such a good marker
of where the fandom was then, So why should it
get lost just because you know the Internet wasn't around then, right,
So I don't know. It makes me very happy. Yeah.
It encompasses so many mediums to this that it's a
phenomenal thing, and being digitized would be an amazing thing
(29:21):
to preserve things. I would love to see some of
the nineteen thirties zines. I want to know what those are,
so give me a copy because they're they're also like
aesthetically pleasing because for me, I love variety and it
doesn't need to be clean. I need like I love.
It's not chaos, but the variety within it and the
way they bring it together that I'm like, Yeah, this
(29:42):
is fun. This is an amusing thing that you can
see and it's someone's take of whatever they're publishing or
whatever they're trying to send out. So yeah, yeah, yeah, well,
I mean, like I said, I have been enjoying the
fan Fix and everybody thinks who is doing that uploading it?
Because I've been like blown away. I legibly obviously texted
you and I was like, I'm reading of fan fictions
(30:05):
that is so much better so much of the official
stuff out there, and it would have been lost. It
would have been lost, and that's just um, yeah, I don't.
I don't want it. I'm I don't. I'm very happy.
Uh So if anybody listening is participating in this or
has any thoughts about this, that would be great. But yeah,
(30:26):
it is pretty beautiful to bring like one topic and
see all these different takes on it, all these I
don't know, it is really cool. Pretty much anyone can
make one. There are tutorials online if you're interested. Uh,
if you have made one, oh my goodness, let us know, yes, yes,
and if you have any suggestions, because we did go
(30:46):
over some in that middle part, but there are a
lot right now and it's a lot is happening um
and especially in yeah, kind of the intersectional feminist realm
of zines, So send to those are way. Yeah, maybe
we can do that as a book club somehow. That'd
be cool. I think we could. I think we could well.
(31:09):
In the meantime, if you've got any of those suggestions
or thoughts about this at all, uh, you can email
as at stuffing your momil stuff at I heart media
dot com. You can find us on Twitter, at most
podcast or Instagram and stuff I've Never Told You. Thanks
as always to our super producer Christina. Thank you Christina, Yes,
and thanks to you for listening Stuff I Never Told
the distrection of I Heart Radio. For more podcast in
my heart Radio, you can check out the heart Radio app,
(31:29):
Apple podcast, or ready listen to your favorite shows.
Hey, this is Annie and Amantha, and welcome to stuff
I'll never told to your protection of I Heart Radio,
and I have to give you some behind the scenes.
I'm kind of laughing right now because we have outlines
that we work off of, right and um, I admitted
(00:29):
in a passed episode, my s key isn't working my laptop,
which is one of the most painful keys to not
be working right. And instead of fixing it, I've put
everything off lately because I've been so busy. I've I
have a lot of interesting workarounds, and I can tell
by this outline that I was very frustrated already. That's
(00:54):
so funny. I'm sorry. It just cracked me up. I've
found some ways around it, but it's not been the
easiest thing to do. I will say in one of
the outlines, you definitely misspelled my name, and that's the
other thing. As I said, my spell check isn't working,
(01:17):
and I was like, okay, yeah, you can like see
my descent into anger in this outline. And another thing
about this outline is it was originally a Monday Mini.
I do think it's gonna be a shorter one, but
every time we say that, it never works out, but
we'll see. But I was researching it and I think
we could come back and revisit it. Honestly, we're talking
(01:38):
about zines. Originally I was specifically talking about fanzines, So
we are going to talk about zines at large in
this one. UM, do you have any experience with znes, Samantha,
I will say I did not know what zines were
until I moved to Atlanta. I think that was around
two thousand six, two thousand seven, UM, And I always
(01:59):
called it lines, which tells you how little I knew
about it and trying to understand it because there was
a whole like h a t L collective group that
gets together and does them, and I was like, what
is this? It's really fascinating, and then it got really
like trendy. Yes, so I was very scared of it. Yeah,
(02:21):
and we're going to talk about that because they are
experiencing a boom right now. I didn't realize resurging. Are
you kidding? It's been fifteen years, Well it's been longer
than that, but they are experiencing a resurgence. I don't
have much experience with scenes. I had one nerd one
that I just kind of found at a thrift store once,
and I really liked that one. It was like mostly
(02:43):
Star Wars but a bunch of other stuff, and I
just happened to find it. It was really cool. And
then Atlanta used to have Dope Girls Zens. Well, see,
I get confused with Zene designed too, but I'm going
with scenes because magazine and I feel like that's what
it's got to be. Right. I think you're right. I
just really could not grasp it. Um. Yeah, and up
Girls are still around, but yeah, but yeah, I don't
(03:06):
think they don't do the zene anymore, or at least
the last I heard they had retired it. They might
have brought it back, but they are still around. Yes,
it was very popular. But one of the reasons I
wanted to talk about this was I got this inkling
that something was up a couple of weeks ago because
people started posting fan fiction that they'd written literal decades ago. Uh,
(03:30):
and I would say like, hey, I wrote this in
nineteen whatever, here it is, and I was just kind
of like, that's interesting. I mean, yeah, I appreciate it.
And then, as you know, mar Jade, who is this
Star Wars character from Legends that I'm very, very excited
to talk about on fictional women around the world. She
started popping up a lot more and I was like,
why are people talking about Marra Jade? Not that they shouldn't,
(03:54):
but it's just kind of like, huh, I wonder if
if there's a reason for this. It turns out there is.
There is a movement that is primarily led by women
to digitize old fanzines, to preserve them, to save them
because otherwise it's just gonna be lost. Um, and it's
a whole thing. It's really really interesting. I also, I
(04:18):
am currently reading one of the best. Like I know
I've said it before, but there's some fan fiction read
and you're like, yes, this could be published and be
better than half of the the stuff they're putting out, maybe
even more than that. And I'm reading one right now.
There's a result of this and it is so good.
It's like reading a book. It's all so good. But yes,
since we have been on a tech kick lately, I'm
(04:39):
always designed to talk about fan fiction and this is
happening right now. We thought we would go over it
fairly briefly, because honestly, it was a much bigger topic
than I thought it was gonna be uh. You can
see the episodes we did on fan fiction. You can
also see the recent ish many that we did that
was called a love letter a fan fiction but was
(05:00):
primarily about Archive of our Own, which is one of
the biggest fan fiction sites, which is we're going to
talk about in this conversation, right, Okay, so let's talk
about this. What are zenes not zience smith not science?
Having to repeat this to myself, Well, they encompass a
lot of things. But here are a couple of key
things involved. One is that that typically self published or
(05:21):
published by an independent, small publisher. This has mainly been
a way for marginalized folks to exercise their voices more
freely outside of mainstream media. So as a part of that,
they are usually not published in large numbers and are
for a smaller communities, and are frequently very niche um
and they aren't commercial. There's often a lot of contributions
(05:43):
and connections to the zene world, which was what I
saw in Atlanta. Yeah, so a lot of people, you know,
well if you if I have a zene and you
have zeene, will work together and collaborate and there's a
lot Yeah, I remember that yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, And
I always feel like I have caveat things zines aren't commercial.
(06:03):
But I do think we have seen with the popularity,
magazines try to get in on that, as always happens
in capitalism. So I think there could be an argument
made that some of them are commercial, but like at
their heart, at their core, they're not commercial. Okay, So
a brief history depending on how you define zines, because
(06:28):
I even wrestled with this and I don't know too
much about them, but I was like, doesn't go back
way further than this, but most people say they go
back to the nineteen thirties with science fiction zines, so
fans trying to like collaborate with short stories and share
their fandom with each other. The zine is short for
fan zine. That was the original use. And remember this
(06:51):
was before the internet and zines were away for fans
to connect with each other. It was sort of like,
it's always interesting these iterations of techno oology because I've
heard people who were like one generation before me talk
about like old message boards online and that was like
the precursor, and then the precursor to that is zines
and and so yeah, it was kind of like a
(07:11):
way to connect. Um. They these fans would speculate with
each other, they would share theories about their favorite works. Um,
they would work together on arts and stories, including fan fiction. Yes,
but they were also sometimes called per zines or personal
znes um, which I love, and they were often handmade. Right.
(07:34):
That is again, this is what I know Atlanta, and
I did not know that it had spanned so far
back because it was so niche and for again, the
ones that I saw in the early two thousand's were
more about music and art, so it was a little different,
and it was very hip culture. Yeah. So yeah, zines
(07:59):
all a search of growth in the fifties and sixties
against kind of like what I'm saying with counterculture movements
that were eager to support smaller, independent publications and the
underground press, and also saw it as a way to
connect with others with similar ideas, a space where people
to have a voice outside of mainstream media. Mini signs
(08:21):
from this time combined art and politics and activism and
writing in experimental and new and eclectic ways, which that's
carried off. That's how I knew it more so than
the fan zines. Right. I think you also just said signs,
but we're leaving it in because I think it's hilarious
having a day. Okay, well, yeah, that's one of my
(08:45):
and we're going to talk about this more. But that's
one of the things people keep saying. Why znes are
so unique is that you don't know what you're gonna
get in them all. They're like a really unique random
while not necessarily random, but just a lot of different
things that you can't really anticipate you open it up
and look at it. And two year points. Punk music
(09:18):
zines really took off in the nineteen eighties, often combining
music and politics, and it offered something unique because these
znes really captured the whole aesthetic and vibe of a subculture. Uh.
And the nineties is when feminist scenes like Riot Girl
really came onto the scene, and this was a reaction
(09:40):
to sexism within these punk music scenes and within the
writing of punk music, and it went on to inspire
so many other znes written by women and girls about feminism,
often in conjunction with something very specific, which all coincided
with third wave eminism. Here's a quote about it from
(10:02):
the Sally Bingham Collection at Duke University's Rubinstein Library. Feminist
practice emphasizes the sharing of personal experience as a community
building tool, and zines proved to be the perfect medium
for reaching out to young women across the country in
order to form the revolution girl style. And yet forty
thousand zs are being published by in North America, I believe,
(10:28):
right right, Yeah, so you might be thinking, but wait,
I've heard so much about the death of print, and
in terms of the environment, that might be a good thing.
But zines are still out there and have recently seen
some major growth, and much of it is in the
arena of intersectional feminism, led by more women, queer folks,
(10:49):
and people of color. However, just like with most things,
there is still work to be done in terms of inclusivity.
One of the big criticisms of the nineties feminist zines
is that they were largely done and based around middle
class white women, and that is changing, especially with external
pressure on the publishing world. But major issues that were
(11:12):
compounded by things like the pandemic still remain. So like,
it was seeing this really great growth in terms of inclusivity,
and then the pandemic happens, and also capitalism ruins everything,
and some big magazines are blurring the lines between magazine
and zine, especially by copying this aesthetic of things like
riot girls try to appear like they are that thing,
(11:33):
when that's sort of the opposite of what zines are about.
And as part of the whole thing behind the popularity
of zines amongst women and marginalised folks is that you
can talk about feminism or whatever really without an ad
about plastic surgery or something in your publication, which you know,
if you want it, all for it. But the history
(11:54):
magazines when it comes to selling women a very specific
image of how they should look is not good. So
there's that. It also gives creators the space to write
about other things than women's issues, are race issues, which
a lot of the writers reported like I'm tired of
being asked only to write about this. I want to
write about fun things too, or like not that those
(12:15):
can't be fun, but like you know, right, and I
know a lot of it was like I love music
of all kinds and they only asked me to do
the specific genre of music and it's not what I'm
interested in, Like I've saw that, Like they would talk
about things like that again, like dope girls, their whole
thing was like, let's talk about we kind of well
that that wasn't their whole thing, but like bringing it
in and like normalizing what that looks like, um, in
(12:37):
a culture that is so uptight at that point in time.
But yeah, it's very interesting to see all of that.
And again, what I witnessed was uh, people taking space
and creating their own art, and a lot of the zines,
not Signs, not of the zines that I saw at
that time, interweaved their artwork in the story. So it's
really interesting to see. Yeah. Yeah, that's something else I've
(13:01):
loved about recent fan fiction, which we are going to
get to, I promise, But I love when they do
that where they have like art interspersed in the story,
Like I love them. Um. And I'm really going to
rue the day if it is Zions and not Zene Samantha.
But it was me, I promise. It just makes sense
to me. I'm pretty sure, right. I think I was
(13:22):
corrected when I first said, Okay, well we'll see. We
could have just looked it up, but we're too into
it now. Here's a quote from a Guardian article written
by Ruth Jamison. If modern feminism is multifaceted by nature.
There now seems to be an independently published magazine or
(13:42):
zene for every one of those faces. There's Sabbat, which
explores modern witchcraft through a feminist lens, Typical Girls, which
sets out to show there's no such thing, the women
only Zene Girls Club, female general interest mag Lira or Lyra,
and Private I meets folks satirical Aussie Mushpit as well
Right Post, the smart magazine for women burnt Roti, which
(14:05):
showcases the talent of South Asian women, Galldam, the print
version of the popular website for women of color of
the same name, and feminist indie mag's Lady Beard and
fruit Lands are amplifying women's voices, chanting female writing, and
challenging ideas about what a women's magazine can be. These
publications tap into a rich history of female protests and
(14:26):
print Here's the quote within the article. Obviously, there are
lots of women in the media, but they rarely control
every aspect of a magazine, and it's even rarer that
they own it, says Phoebe Lindsay of fruit Lands. Historically,
women have taken control of the way they are not
represented by publishing on their own terms. Think of Spare
Rib and the Riot Girls zens of the nineties. By
having our own magazine, we can control and direct every
(14:49):
element of our message. The lack of diversity in the
media is unbelievably frustrating, says Galldam's opinion editor Heather Barnett.
Galldam are changing that by providing a platform where women
and non binary people of color can write about whatever
they like. Yeah, so, the article continues. The boom in
independent magazine publishing has shown that print is not dead. Now,
(15:10):
independent women's magazines are setting the standard for a more
progressive women's media. They are changing the face of women's
magazines and have their sites set on the media as
a whole. As Connery and Taylor says, quote, the number
of women who are running independent magazines is inspiring where
everywhere getting done. It seems print is not only not dead,
it has also come back as a woman. Yes, I
(15:33):
like that. Um. And here's a quote from the Women's
Media Center. Sus Myers is a graphic designer who, along
with five other people, organizes the NYC Feminist Zine Fest,
the event that has been happening since two thousand eleven.
And offers us space to first timers and old school
zine makers to present their work and exchange ideas. The
event started with three hundred dollars raised on go fund
(15:54):
me and the purpose of quote promoting the self published
work of zisters of all genders as they explore a
variety of feminist topics through print media. The fact that
zines are quote created without any mediating influence from advertisers
is an important aspect of the forms. Meyer said, Um,
a zine can be a lot of things, and because
(16:15):
of this, it's precise definition can be wonderfully, woefully difficult
to pin down. She added, Yes, and this is one
of the things I love doing this research is there's
a lot of collections or events like this for zines,
and I would love to go. I'm pretty sure Lana
had a zine fest. I'm I'm pretty sure in the
early two thousand's they actually did, or med two thousands
they did have a zine fest, which also like what's
(16:36):
happening now? You know? You know? Many zines are available
in digital forms. Some argue that they were essentially pre
Internet versions of blogs. Others argue that the physical nature
is key to what makes a zine a zine, and
that's why one of the reasons why at least they're
experiencing a surge during the time social media, like people
(16:58):
want something kind of different where you're can be random,
it's in your hands physical. But this brings us to
why my fan fiction since was tingling, because the digital
bid is not necessarily about not offering a print option.
A lot of people are arguing it's about preserving for
future generations. So as discussed inner episode on Archive of
(17:21):
our Own or a O three, which is one of
the largest, I'm pretty sure the largest fan fiction platforms
in existence, we talked about how it's just one piece
of the nonprofit the Organization of Transformative Works, and as
part of their mission to preserve older fan fiction largely
published in fanzines, they recently launched the fanzine scan hosting
(17:43):
project in collaboration with zend um Um, and basically the
goal is to preserve these physical fan fictions on their site.
And I have seen some of the results that what
was what was happening. I was like, oh, look at this,
and a handful of my favorite authors have sort of
fallen off the map to participate in it. That was
(18:05):
another thing I saw where they'd be like, I gotta
go scan some what was What did they say, Cody
one Zines, I'll be back, And I was like, what, Okay?
But yeah, I've seen these band fiction that are decades
old and they're so well written, and I'm just like, Wow,
(18:27):
I understand why you were published, and I'm so glad
it was saved. I'm so glad I'm reading it right now.
And as mentioned before many times, most fan fiction is
created by women and other marginalized folks, which means that
those folks are largely spearheading this project. I love to
see it. For years, Zendom has been scanning and archiving
(18:48):
this material, but this new project came in part out
of frustration that ao thus technology didn't really allow for
uploading scanned fancies, which I was wondering. I was like,
can they do that? Morgan Don, who was leading the project,
described the difficulty of uploading the scans and that once uploaded,
they can't be edited and many errors are often introduced.
(19:11):
Donna was trying to upload a novel link fan fick
with this process to a OH three, but got annoyed
with it, so just put up a Google drive link
to the PDF sounds like something I would do, but
it was taken down because the link was not fan work,
which is weird. It's a link to fan work, it's
not fank actual fan work. Yes, and I have experienced
(19:36):
this whole hassle of converting a PDF. I hear you,
sees you, Yes, I really do. This led to a
whole discussion about preserving fan history, a lot of this
history in zines, and how that fell to the fans
because the fans are the ones making these things. UM.
(19:57):
Don started SEEINGDOM to take on this whole thing, uploading
and converting docs with permission. I'm going to talk about
them more in a second. UM and only a handful
of volunteers. But because of that, UM it just wasn't
working like Don wanted. Like the volunteer and the scheduling,
the organizing and all the technology, it wasn't working. So
Don reached out to Open Doors. A part of the
(20:20):
organization of Transformative works with the mission and their their
mission is by the way UM preserving quote those Spanish
projects that might otherwise be lost due to lack of time, interest,
our resources on the part of the current maintainer UH
to join in. So Dahn reached out to them. Mission
seems like it fits right with what zeemdom is trying
to do. But because of things that we've talked about
(20:41):
in that fan fiction episode on I O three of
crackdowns on like Tumbler, the shutdown of Yahoo groups where
a lot of fan fix was hosted, this process got
really really delayed, so it wasn't until I think twenty
nineteen that they started working together. Another thinging like Okay
first A OH three is also run by volunteers, and
(21:03):
one of the things we talked about in an episode
is that their technology is old, like it's not super old,
but it needs to be updated, but it's just like
gotten so out of control that they also are struggling
with that stuff. Another thing is the tech divide. It's
kind of been an issue because a lot of fanzines
were written by older people who might not be the
(21:24):
most tech savvy to scan and save their work. Um
and Another thing, and this is what I found really
fascinating and I would love to expand on this, but
people often wrote under pen names um and are hard
to find. So Don talked about like calling people and
having these you know, maybe never finding them or maybe
finding out that they had died, or maybe connecting with
(21:46):
an old relative who was so thrilled, like maybe they
had lost that relative who wrote it and was so
thrilled to have this kind of piece of like oh,
I didn't know they wrote that or whatever. Because they
can't upload them without permission. They have to get the
permission first. Uh huh. Yeah. So with this project, thousands
(22:16):
of physical fansies have been scanned. Most yeah, we're found
through Facebook groups are just reaching out to the names
they found in the zines um but there are thousands
and thousands and thousands more to go. One volunteer has
eight thousand Star Trek fanzines alone alone. And I want
to talk about this. I want to do the bigger
(22:37):
episode on this one day because it was so interesting.
But the Kirk Spock fan fiction archive was one of
the first to be imported to a OH three and
it was being run by a fan who taken on
the task of maintaining an archive of zines in that arena. Notably,
this fandom is also the source of a lot of
our more modern Spanish spaces and understanding, including slash and
(22:59):
the ripple effect that that had, and a lot of
the women were writing about why they were writing Kirk
and spok is romantic couple, and they were talking about
how they identified with spok is not belonging anywhere and
getting all this like goph for the It was just
really interesting, really really interesting to see the ripple effects
of that. Open Doors is starting to archives Ingdom's links
(23:20):
and is working with universities and other institutions to make
these znes available online to the public, which it hasn't
previously been the case, Like some universities have these collections,
but you had to be a student and go in
person to see them. Um. So that's a piece of
it too, from a article by j Castello. And this
(23:41):
is a long quote, so bear with me. It means
not being forgotten, said Maggie now Atkowska, the co editor
of Geek Elder's Speak and anthology of essays by older
women in fandom. Now Akowska herself is seventy three, and
I hope I'm not puturing your name. Um. One reason
for preserving and celebrating that history is the fact that
so many of the franchise is keyed phantom history, like
Star Trek and Star Wars have a reputation of being
(24:03):
for boys, whereas fanfic and fanzines have traditionally been a
space dominated by women. They don't think we ever existed.
They don't know that women did all these things, says
now Akawska. Julie Baza, an Australian fanzine author and publisher
who volunteers with Open Doors, also emphasizes that preservation isn't
just about making sure the best fan fiction is available
(24:24):
to readers. It's about preserving the culture and history that
got us to where we are now. It's really interesting
to get an idea of the bigger picture, she says,
what tropes are being written about and why at different times,
how have things changed. For instance, fan fiction has often
been celebrated for its ability to give writers and readers
a chance to explore their gender and sexuality. The terminology
(24:44):
has changed, with words like lemon denoting explicit sexual content
and even slash denoting male male relationships falling out of favor,
but knowing how and why they were used as important
in understanding how same sex relationships and women's sexuality we're
even more policed than they are today. At the same time,
(25:05):
preservation can also demonstrate the sheer breadth of fan works.
Baza shared some scans with me, which include a series
of haiku inspired by eighties sci fi movie Buckeru Bonzai.
For instance, when you open a fancy and you'll see cartoons,
you'll see essays, you'll see poetry, you'll see snarky little comments,
you'll see letters of comment, said now Akaska, And that's
a totally different experience than just reading one story, which
(25:28):
I love. They were kind of talking about that in
terms of, you know, like if you go to fan
fiction dot net, which is what they're talking about with
the slash. The reason we say slash is because if
you said, like Kirk and Amper sans black, that's a friendship.
If you say Kirk slash block, that is a romantic relationship.
(25:48):
But that's not everybody uses fan fiction dot net anymore, Like,
that's not how it is necessarily every site, um, although
it is still in my case that's what I usually see.
But I love that, and I love like this idea
of when you open a fanzine. It's not like when
you click a tag and you know what you're looking
for and you know what you're gonna get probably, but
(26:09):
you could get a series of my career. That's amazing.
That's amazing. Yes, yeah, wow, you just brought me back.
It really like I forgot about this. Yeah, it was cool.
It's something that I'm like, I love it, but I
would never have the courage to do it because I'm
(26:29):
not artistic. I think I actually participated in putting like
a Stanza in one. I could be making this up,
but this seems familiar, like I'm having a time, or
maybe I was just around when people did that. I
don't remember. I remember buying because I loved going to
local readings, like we have a lot of good writers
in Atlanta, and we know this. My heart has been
(26:51):
blessed with some of our writers recently a fiction including yourself,
um including there was a thing called Right Club. I
don't know they're still going, and I believe our one
of our producers, Mike John's, was a part of that.
She um, it was a big founding and beginning of that,
and I remember hearing her read uh there. So shout
out to one of the producers of I Heart and
(27:13):
our family rather um who began this and seeing different
writers go up and give an essay and have a moment.
But in that same group. They did zine clubs, and
I think they still do Actually, now that you say that,
I feel like it's been years since I attended one
of those, but I think they still do it. And
(27:34):
I know Right Club is I think a national thing,
but it's the Right Club. Atlanta was started by them, um,
and I remember them selling independently published books and independent zines.
Like now that I'm thinking about it, it's been several
years since I've attended one. They still do that, and
I love that aspect of it because it brings a
(27:55):
lot of personality, UM to these writings. And yeah, you've
really put me back, and that's in fact, I just
had to really look through Twitter because it's not as
part of your world, you don't know, which thank you
very much for bringing it back into my world. There's
one group called Queer Circle and I believe they're based
out of the UK that did a thing called a
(28:18):
t zine which they did in December, which they brought
over a hundred znes submitted by different people from all
over the world, all over the world from the queer community.
And I'm like, hell, yeah, that's this stuff like that.
It's so amazing and I forgot the impact of things
like this. Yeah. Yeah, this was a really fun one
(28:38):
to research because I kind of knew about them, but
I didn't know too much. I'm so glad that this
project is happening, that this these fanzines are getting preserved,
because I there was a lot of other Honestly, we
talked about this before, Samantha. Sometimes we just want to
quote like entire articles because it's like, Okay, yes, this
is it. But a lot of the older women they
(28:59):
interviewed were like, yeah, I don't want to I don't
want this to get lost because I think other people
will still enjoy it, and it's such a good marker
of where the fandom was then, So why should it
get lost just because you know the Internet wasn't around then, right,
So I don't know. It makes me very happy. Yeah.
It encompasses so many mediums to this that it's a
phenomenal thing, and being digitized would be an amazing thing
(29:21):
to preserve things. I would love to see some of
the nineteen thirties zines. I want to know what those are,
so give me a copy because they're they're also like
aesthetically pleasing because for me, I love variety and it
doesn't need to be clean. I need like I love.
It's not chaos, but the variety within it and the
way they bring it together that I'm like, Yeah, this
(29:42):
is fun. This is an amusing thing that you can
see and it's someone's take of whatever they're publishing or
whatever they're trying to send out. So yeah, yeah, yeah, well,
I mean, like I said, I have been enjoying the
fan Fix and everybody thinks who is doing that uploading it?
Because I've been like blown away. I legibly obviously texted
you and I was like, I'm reading of fan fictions
(30:05):
that is so much better so much of the official
stuff out there, and it would have been lost. It
would have been lost, and that's just um, yeah, I don't.
I don't want it. I'm I don't. I'm very happy.
Uh So if anybody listening is participating in this or
has any thoughts about this, that would be great. But yeah,
(30:26):
it is pretty beautiful to bring like one topic and
see all these different takes on it, all these I
don't know, it is really cool. Pretty much anyone can
make one. There are tutorials online if you're interested. Uh,
if you have made one, oh my goodness, let us know, yes, yes,
and if you have any suggestions, because we did go
(30:46):
over some in that middle part, but there are a
lot right now and it's a lot is happening um
and especially in yeah, kind of the intersectional feminist realm
of zines, So send to those are way. Yeah, maybe
we can do that as a book club somehow. That'd
be cool. I think we could. I think we could well.
(31:09):
In the meantime, if you've got any of those suggestions
or thoughts about this at all, uh, you can email
as at stuffing your momil stuff at I heart media
dot com. You can find us on Twitter, at most
podcast or Instagram and stuff I've Never Told You. Thanks
as always to our super producer Christina. Thank you Christina, Yes,
and thanks to you for listening Stuff I Never Told
the distrection of I Heart Radio. For more podcast in
my heart Radio, you can check out the heart Radio app,
(31:29):
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