The Ins and Outs of Prom

It's prom season! Anney and B unpack the history of prom. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is a bridget and this is Annie, and
this is stuff momb never told you, and it's May.
If you're in high school, you know what that means,
mom season, I was gonna say testing season. You have

(00:29):
exam two. End of the year, you get the test
and your prom, which is I believe, a very distinctly
North American thing. Yes. Yes, So for folks out there
who maybe you don't know what prom is, maybe you
live someplace where prom is not the norm, but it's
prom anny, Okay, Well, it's this dance essentially that takes
place towards the end of the year, typically April, May

(00:50):
or June in American high schools, and it is a big,
big deal, big deal. You've probably seen promposals a lot. Now.
That was not a thing when I was in high school.
Was that a thing when you're in high school? No? No,
I mean, it wasn't that someone would ask you to prom.
They didn't do it with a you know, giant cookie

(01:11):
that's had the word prom in a question mark. That's
I don't know when that started. That was not a
thing when I was in high school at all. I
believe it was ish. I was reading an article before
this and they called that your peak prom so maybe
around that time. Um. So those are elaborate engagement esque things, skits,
schemes where you ask people out, usually the girl, Um

(01:36):
if you can, you get a limma, you go out
to eat, you get a nice suit or dress, you
do the whole pinning of the corsage. It took me
forever to remember what that was. Um, it's a rose.
It's like a nice rose usually or flower. Um, you
might get a bad spray tan, you might drink some
very cheap alcoholic punch illegally when the US. Um, it's

(01:58):
a whole thing, and it's um, apparently it's the whole
thing where you might lose your virginity. Three of American
teens lose their virginity on prom night. One study found,
did you know that? But what did you do? Problem?
Was promise thing for you? It was and before right
before we started recording, I learned that Bridget was prom princess.

(02:19):
I wasn't going to bring it up. I'm trying to
be low key Annie. I mean, all right, well we
can talk about and first of all, don't treat me
any differently. I'm just like anyone else your royalty. I
didn't know. I mean, you haven't been calling me Princess
Bridget and I was going to say something, but I'm
glad that you brought it up because now we can
fix it. So yeah, I would like to be addressed
by Princess Bridget. Well, note that I was not prom queen.

(02:41):
That was my friend Abby Pillsberry, who one prom queen.
But I was prom princess, which is one wrong below
queen um and together with more of our classmates, we
ruled as prom court, so I got to wear a sash.
Were you a tyrant? How was your rule? Bloody heads? Rolled? Sure?

(03:03):
Oh man, I had a very different experience that from
I my junior year. There there's a local country club
in my town. My town was very very small, so
this country club, even though it's in the town, was
like thirty minutes away. It's up a mountain. I lived
way up in the mountains. Um, and I was a
designated driver and I had I drove like a group

(03:25):
of five friends in my car and uh, my enemy
Jessica who shall remain last nameless, She won prom queen,
but I knew she cheated and we got a fight.
We pushed each other and people fell in the pool
and I got kicked out of prom and I was
designated drivers know they had to come with me. I

(03:49):
was like, we're happy to leave now. They were like what,
I'm sorry, I'm getting kicked out and I'm the car
so you've got to wait. How did she cheat that prom?
She cheated? Um with the ballot box. She stuffed the
box so can carry yes? Does this story end with
someone getting pigs blood dumped on them? I'd rather not

(04:11):
comment on that. Briches I've thought about prom in years.
I still have some pictures my date. His name was
I don't want to say his last name. His name
was The first name was Josh. He uh had at
the time and probably still today, sleeve tattoos, including tattoos
on his knuckles that spelled out the word bookworm. Um.

(04:33):
He came to prom wearing a top hat and carrying
a cane and tails. Mr don it was actually Mr Peanut.
What's funny is that I don't want to say any
specific details, but I was definitely more interested in one
of my female classmates that I went to prom with
than I was in my own date. Oh yeah. I

(04:55):
went in a large group of friends and we went
to Ruby. Tuesday, he sort of for the restaurant. Oh yeah,
because I'm disappointed to this day. We went to a
very I mean it's still open. We went to a
very hip restaurant in Richmond, Virginia. At the hip at
the time, I thought, um, edo's squid and it was
a downtown sort of you know, um it's it's maybe

(05:18):
not super hip at the time, it's like a downtown restaurant.
He felt very grown up. There's that whole aspect of
like we're fancy adults now, like that's being so cosmopolitan. Um.
I got asked to prom by this guy that I
turned down because I didn't think I was gonna go. UM.

(05:39):
I was pretty sure it was going to be lame,
and it was. And that's not saying all problems are,
but this one specifically, I was pretty sure it was
gonna be lame. But he ended up. Um. He was
so angry about the whole thing that the next week
he published a book on UM. He had all of

(06:01):
the social security numbers everybody in school and instructions and
how to build a bomb, and he is not allowed.
He went to jail. He had a ninety two thousand
dollar scholarship to NASA. He went to jail and he's
not allowed within the city limits ever. Again, that's horrifying.
I mean, I'm sure it wasn't just me. I'm sure

(06:23):
obviously it was like a tipping point of uh oh man. Anyway,
My problem was a very interest from Oh my god.
But we're yeah, we're going to come back to that
subject of not handling rejection. Well, it wasn't my purpose though,
under statement of the damn, I will say it wasn't

(06:45):
take it well weirdly, you know, he just didn't handle
it as as well as he could have, very classy
about it. No, yeah, it wasn't on purpose, I'll say.
On my end, I honestly didn't think I was going
to go, and then my friends were like, you're going
to regret it for the rest of your life if
you don't go, And then I went and it was like, no,

(07:06):
I could have stayed home. It was a very boring prom.
And the next year, because of all the kerfuffle we
had it in our gym, we didn't go back to
the country club. God anyway. Um, So that that's me
off conference, getting back back on track. Um, back when

(07:28):
I went and when you went. It sounds like it
wasn't as big of a thing as it is now,
the prom posals and everything. And the current price tag
of prom in the US is nine hundred and seventy
eight dollars. What that's so much money. Yeah. In my household,
I basically got one fancy dress. So it was like,

(07:50):
this is gonna be your prom dress. It's gonna be
your homecoming dress, is gonna be your whatever you need
to do. That's fancy dress. You better like this dress
because this is it. I actually, this is so stupid.
My prom dress was white because I thought I might
have to get married in this dress. It's like, that's
actually kind of smart. You were being thrifty. Ye have
to wear it. You're gonna be the same size and

(08:12):
the rest of your life. But this was very wishful
thinking on all fronts, except for the front where I
can't afford an additional dress ten years later. Yeah, that's true.
It's a it's an odd combination of like wishful and morose.
I also from my prom, my parents were like, nope,
we're not gonna spend the money on the dress. So

(08:33):
I had been a bridesmaid of my cousin's wedding that year,
and I just wore the bridesmaid dress, which it was
a nice dress I have. I have no qualms with that.
So we're gonna talk a little bit about the history
of PROM and then prom's future it's present. But first
we're going to take a quick break for word from responsor.

(09:02):
I was back, Thank you, sponsor. Okay, So some brief
prom history. Prom is the shortened form of promenade, which
is that thing when guests at a formal party are
sort of presented and introduced to be a something like
a parade. We don't really do this anymore. I'm sure
some people do, but this was a bigger thing the

(09:23):
like late eighteen hundred's, early nineteen hundreds, and it was
meant to be an event that promoted social etiquette and manners,
just to show the youth. So something sort of like Catillian, Yes, yeah,
I did, Catillian. Did you really? That's why I'm still
well mannered and being That's probably why you got the war.

(09:46):
Were like, wow, she's she is royal and just in
her blood. Clearly, I actually don't know what Cartillian is.
That's the manners things. Cotillion. Oh, let me tell you
basically cotillion. It's kind of like prom. You spend a
set amount of time taking or learning manners, So basically
learning how to use a knife and fork the right way,

(10:07):
learning how to you know, the salad fork from the
dinner of work or what have you. Learning how to
properly make a phone call so you know, if a
boy calls the house, how are you to address him?
That kind of thing. I still don't know. I can
teach you off Mike excellent. Yeah. And so basically I
think it's like a week of these classes and boys
take them and girls take them, and at the end

(10:29):
there's a little ceremony that's kind of like a prom
where you're supposed to sort of show off what you've learned.
And you wear a dress and you wear gloves and
here's a little dinner and it's supposed to be sort
of showing like, oh, you learned the skills for polite society.
You can you can come out into polite society. Uh,
and you know, you know, you know your dinner forks
and you can be a successful human personal Is this

(10:51):
the same? It's this debutante, it's a little it's sort
of like that, Okay, because I thought they were the same,
but I wanted to make sure. UM. This whole whole
PROM thing started with co ed banquets at American universities
in the nineteenth century, and from there it's spread to
high schools. In the twentieth century marked the first high

(11:13):
school quote democratic debutante ball, but it was only open
to white people and mostly middle to upper class white people. UM.
And then with the Great Depression of the nineteen thirties,
several principles in the Chicago area canceled PROM to save
students from being psychologically wounded because you couldn't afford to go.

(11:34):
I don't know that's UM. By the nineteen forties, with
teenage culture alive and well, the thanks gued younger and younger.
And that's pretty much around the time that the proms.
We know it's solidified. After World War Two ended and
all that disposable income was coming in. In the nineteen fifties,
PROM moved out of the gym, which is where it
was traditionally held, and into the country club. The fifties

(11:57):
also came with this life advice for US ladies, girls
who try to usurp the right of boys to choose
their own dates will ruin a good dating career. First
of all, I love that it's considered a career. I
know it should be mean. I texted a friend the
other day, like, I was flirting with this guy at
a bar and he he left to go get a drink.

(12:18):
And I texted a friend and I was like, I
don't remember flirting with a cute guy being this much
hard work, but it is. My brain is like, who's
got the time? You Like, let's get rid of this
whole flirting business. Yeah, yeah, needs to be a service. Yes,
you can get cookies delivered to your door at two am.

(12:41):
You should be able to also get an orgasm delivered.
That's all I'm saying. The future bridget somebody get on that.
But now we're talking about the past. Um and n
President Kennedy's Beverly Hilton thousand dollars a plate fundraiser was
rescheduled for pro Um that was set to take place

(13:01):
at the same time. That blows my mind. Like Kennedy, sir,
it's gonna be a bunch of high schoolers here trying
to pretend that they've got all the manners and social
etiquette training. You're gonna have to find somewhere else. Um,
that's wild, isn't it. A little over a decade later,
President Ford's daughter and her had her high school prom
at the White House, and this is the only time

(13:21):
that's ever happened. One organizer later said of it, I
had to choose a band that didn't have any kind
of drug charge. It was pretty hard. I wonder who
they got. I don't know. Yeah, I mean it's nineteen
sixty three kind of that. They were all they all
were smoking jazz cigarettes back then. I bet it was

(13:42):
quite difficult. Um, Stephen King's Carry came out in nineteen
seventy four, if you don't know, But that's about it's
essentially it culminates in prom, a prom gone wrong. Yeah.
So Carrie was was a seminal film for me, especially
seminal night understanding of from and I think the fact
that that movie, so if you don't in the movie,

(14:04):
basically the plot is Carrie is this this outcast girl
in her school. It's sitsy SpaceX. She has this long,
mousey hair that she she reads as the troubled girl,
will put it that way. And her mom is this
is this religious fanatic who is basically abusing her and
she realizes that she has telekinetic power. She can move
things with her mind by by focusing on them, and

(14:26):
her classmates, who are very cruel, play this prank on
her where there's one classmate who is genuinely trying to
be nice and that she has her boyfriend asked her
to proms so that Carrie can feel accepted. But then
these mean girls completely pervert that gesture. They rig the
problems that she wins prom queen, and then they pour
pigs blood on her. Also a young John Travolta, isn't it. Yeah,

(14:49):
he's the he's the like bad guy boyfriend. Um. And
so when this happens, Carrie loses her and kills everybody
in the prom, and so she with her mind and
so she uses her mind to you know, start fires
and flood the school and all of that, and by
the end everyone's dead and it culminates. So there are

(15:12):
two big things in that movie, her getting her period
and prom and I think for me, it book ends
what is supposed to be these seminal things in a
young girl's life. Getting your period, you know, kind of
starts this intense thing of becoming quote unquote becoming a woman.
And then you end your high school career, you're like

(15:33):
girlhood career for lack of a better word, with this
big party prom and it's supposed to sort of That
movie really nicely encapsulates what you're supposed to think of
as your sort of big seminal moment of a young
woman's life. Yeah, um, I agree, And that's another movie
we could do a whole sminty sminty three thou msd

(15:55):
Case and the really bad but actually kind of good
sequel to The Rage. Oh I never saw Cary. Too
terrible but actually kind of good. Okay, cool, well added
to our list. Um, the film came out in nineteen
seventies six and kind of going off what you're saying,
bridget Um, I did read a lot of articles about

(16:17):
how promise becomes such this big thing now and it's
almost like marriage, where we've built it into these there's
too big of expectations and people are consistently left down.
They're expecting way too much out of prom and then
that it's like me where I go to the gym
and the music is too quiet and everyone's just kind
of sitting there sullenly. I'm not saying all problems are
like that. Mine particularly lame, but you get your expectations.

(16:41):
It's even in middle school some people are already thinking
about old prom It's this thing, it's this big event,
and then it happens and it's a kind of hopefully enjoyable,
but it's probably not what you imagined. Yeah, my memories
of my problem was pretty good. Um. I went the

(17:02):
guy that I mentioned earlier with the book where knuckle
Tattoo was my then boyfriend. Um. So there was no
and there was no expectation of asking or being asked.
It was just we're going to go together because we
are dating. Um. We went the big group of friends.
We didn't get a limo. I drove my car there. Um.
They the music actually was really good they played this

(17:24):
was I'm dating myself. But are you know how there's
like a song that you think of as like your
prom song? Ours was One More Time by Daft Punk
became a very like even even to the days of
that song. I showed up in my life a lot,
and I remember I remember having a moment of this. Actually,
I mean, this is like a wholesome as I'm remembering
this now, I'm thinking of my promise. Like a very

(17:46):
remembering in every wholesome way, which was just all my
friends on the dance floor dancing to One More Time
by Daft Punk and just feeling really happy and sort
of you know. And I also went to a really
small all girls school, so there was not you know.
I think that kind of was part of it, that
like you could go to prom I even if you
don't have a date, Like it wasn't. I guess my
school really took a lot of the stress out of it.

(18:10):
There was none of the stress of promposal, none of
the stress that I have to have a date. Most
people who went did not have a date. It was
mostly girls, and some of the girls who had boys
in their lives or whatever. Um. I think if I
was in school now, I would feel it would be
way too much pressure the way that we deal with
problem these days, being expected to have a promposal and

(18:32):
all of that would be way too much. And I think,
I think this is a different conversation, but I think
that social media and I talk about social media so
much on this show, but I think it's because it's change.
It's warped things in our life in ways that we
maybe don't even see. There are so many things in
a young person's life that before the ubiquity of social media,

(18:53):
were one way and now they're another. Somebody made a
great point on Twitter, um, how particularly for black women,
and there's this thing now when you graduate high school
or college, you have to sort of take this kind
of very specifically posed a graduation picture of you and
your cap and gown, were like, you also look where
you look sexy, but you're graduating, And and then you

(19:13):
posted on Twitter with like you know your stats? You
know I can't. I was raised by a single mom
and now I'm graduating, and it's it's very it's very
good in a kind of way. It's very celebratory, but
it's like we've we have made the milestones in our life.
We have attached them with so much expectation because of

(19:36):
social media that you have to do it a certain
kind of way. Like if you just graduate high school
and you're awkward, and you know you you squeaked through.
Thank god, you're like me, you and you don't have
If you don't have an experience, it's worthy of bragging
on social media. You're like doing it wrong. And I
think prom is the same kind of thing where my
kind of understated but enjoyable prom is. I think of

(20:00):
the past. Now, if if somebody didn't show up at
your house with a dozen roses and then like take
a picture that goes viral on the local news, You've
done it wrong. And that's I'm so glad I don't.
I'm not a young person today. Yeah, I I learned
very quickly. And yes this is a sidebar, and then
we will return to the history from I am not
a good person on social media, like it depressed me.

(20:22):
I would see what other people are doing and I
would feel so like I am not living up to
what they are doing. And I mean everyone is presenting
a certain aspect that that's just how it is. But
I I as a person, couldn't like handle that. And
I would have been very miserable to be going to
prom during social media, that's for sure. And now back

(20:44):
to the history. Okay UM. In ninety nine, the first
openly gay couple in the US UM had police protection
in Sue Falls, South Dakota, UH. The following year, a
federal judge sides with a male high school senior from
Rhode Island after his principle had rejected his request to
bring a male date. Uh. And then we moved into

(21:06):
the eighties, which could be called the decade of prom.
When it comes to Hollywood, you got pretty empying back
to the future foot Loose Valley Girl. Um. And as
long as problem has been around, it's been kind of
a battleground for changing societal norms. In nine, principal in
Alabama was sued after he warned prom would be canceled
if any interracial couples attended. And to this day some

(21:27):
schools still have anti gay bands rather than allow a
female student bring her girlfriend. A Mississippi school canceled prom
all together. Yeah, it's very interesting how problems kind of
have always been this battleground for social issues and that
legacy really remains kind of unchanged today, even Ineen. Just

(21:49):
last month here in Atlanta, to students Jole Learner and
Carter Herbert, the high school band conductor and the high
school class president. We're both nominated by the students of
their school at Chattahoochee to be prom kings. But they
were told by school administrators that two guys could not
be two prom kings as a couple. And I think
the students there tried to rally to change the rule,

(22:11):
and the school kind of to their credit, they said,
give us a proposal of changing this rule and we'll
look into changing it. But honestly, like how hard is it? Also? Who? Yes?
Like I got what they're going for, Like, make the
kids show some gumshrain and write a proposal and maybe
we'll change it. But also just change the thing rule.

(22:32):
I mean, who gives a right? Like it would mean
a lot to the kids. These things are arbitrary anyway,
what the what is this? What are these administrators care
at a certain point? And also like, wouldn't the proposal
just be changed? The rule? Change it? It's like, oh, okay, cool,
Like I don't understand what they were supposed to. I

(22:53):
don't know. Yeah. And in Buffalo, student Bishop Elliott says
that McKinley High School has a history of paul iss
these that exclude LGBTQ students, including the principles alleged denial
of him and a fellow students request for a gay
strate alliance just a week before prom. He sued the
Principle for allegedly policing same sex couples at school dances

(23:14):
in a federal lawsuit. The eighteen year Old School junior
says students buying a couple of tickets for dances are
asked for the name of their dates. Those naming same
sex partners are not permitted to purchase the couple's passes.
He claims. The New York Civil Liberties Union filed a
complaint against the school's principal, Crystal Bowling Burton, and the
Buffalo School District is also a defendant. So really, you

(23:36):
would think that these issues are things that have passed,
but they're kind of not. I mean, prom continues to
be this battle ground where social issues sort of explode.
And furthermore, you were talking earlier about racial segregation and proms. Again,
that might sound like something that is a thing totally
of the past, but not so. In fact, Wilcox County

(23:57):
High School here in Georgia didn't have its first racially
integrated prom until only four years ago. Instead of one
big prom for everybody, parents and their children would organize private,
off site, racially segregated parties known to most as quote
White Prom and Black Prom. Now, after students plan their
own innovative dance, school leaders said that they would sponsor

(24:17):
the school's first innovrated prom for everyone yeah, I mean
it sounds like something that would be happening years and
years and years ago, but that's not even that long ago,
and Georgia isn't even the only state where this is
going down. What is that experience like for mixed race kids,
or for Latino kids, or for Indian kids. Like, it's

(24:38):
such a binary, that is that it leaves out so
many So I'm just thinking about all the kids whore
left out, kids in interracial relationships, kids who aren't black
or white. It just is such a or I wonder
if it's non white prom and white prom. I don't know,
I just it just seems such a weird binary, Like
how how would you enforce it? I'm just I have

(24:59):
I've so many questions. I do too, And what a
weird just what a strange experience to know, like in
high school that you're going to have these two separate proms.
To me that like, my brain cannot process that. It's
a lot. So I do actually have a few sweet stories.
They know we have a long way to go, but

(25:20):
there are some some you know, not awful prom Beacons
of hope, Beacons of prom hope, prope if you will
this year to Mantal students were taking their prom pictures
as a group of rowdy patrons at a rooftop bar
were nearby. Patrons kept shouting at all the couples who
were walking by clearly going to prom, like kiss, kiss, kiss.

(25:41):
So when they walked by, a couple had a moment
of you know, oh my god, what's gonna happen? Rowdy
bar patrons screamed at them kiss, kiss, kiss, and they thought,
oh god, you know, if we kiss is a trick,
we kiss, what's gonna happen? And they kissed, and the
kid said that crowd went wild. The kid said, when
me and Colin walked by, the chanted kiss him over
and over again. We were a little heased in about

(26:03):
it because we were nervous, obviously to see if something
bad would happen to us. Then we kissed and they
all went crazy. Everyone went wild and was cheering, happy,
so proud of us. They kept being like, do it again.
And it felt so good. I don't even know how
it felt. I just never felt like that, and that
is super sweet. It's nice. I mean, it's I'm I'm
happy that these young people felt supported. Um, I think

(26:23):
I'll be even happier when two guys going to prom
together and kissing each other as dates. It's it's not,
you know, a big deal. I'm happy. I'm really On
the one hand, I'm I'm thrilled that these kids had
a moment that affirm that they were supported by their community,
because man, that feels good. But I'll be even happier
when it's just accepted that you know your love is

(26:46):
is valid and that you don't need to hide it,
and then that you in a kind of way. It
makes me sad that this is a viral moment because
in my dream of dreams too, you know, the same
sex couple going to prom together would not be viral news.
It would just be commonplace because it should be yeah,
pretty much like you said. It makes me really happy

(27:07):
and also really sad because they shouldn't have that worry.
Um should just be able to be happy with the
person you're with, and that's your business, and I'm happy
for you if you're happy. Like it feels weird because
you don't want to make someone feel mothered by being
overtly like really happy for them, but you want them

(27:29):
to feel the same thing that heteronormative couples it's a
lot of what we were talking about in our episode
on disability, where you know you when you have a
viral feel good promposal where it's a person with disabilities
being asked to prom um. Oh, by the way, it's
a very very helpful. Listener wrote in to tell me

(27:50):
that in that episode I said disabled people and you
really should say people with disabilities, and I got that wrong.
So when you have someone who is a person with
disabilities who's being asked to prom and that becomes a
heartwarming viral moment, on the one hand, we got it.
You know, people want to feel good, but actually what
you're saying is that this person being asked to prom,

(28:14):
they're not being asked because they're a rad person who
should be asked to prom because they rock. If someone
is doing a charity and that all good for them.
That's so brave. And I want to live in a
world where everyone's everyone feels desired and supported and affirmed.
And we're on other rising people when they you know,
when someone asked him to prom, or when they when

(28:35):
these kind of things happen, and so on the one hand,
I'm happy that these kids had a sweet moment, but
on the other hand, I want to live in a
world where that moment is commonplace, and of course it
will be affirmed, Like why wouldn't it be affirmed. It's
not news that it was affirmed. Yeah, exactly, another sort
of I think, marker of progress on the prom front.

(28:55):
In May, Corey Ray became the first trans prom queen,
she writes on her website. For fun, I decided that
I would attempt to fulfill my dream of being prom queen.
I made my Facebook name Corey Prom Queen Wagner, and
soon enough I was nominated at Prom. I was nervous.
I had an underlying feeling that my dream would come
true and then my world change forever. Our class president said,

(29:17):
and our junior prom Queen is Corey Wagner. The whole
room went wild, screaming in a plodding For me, I
never felt more love by my peers in my entire life.
The night was perfect. I couldn't have been more proud
of myself and my high school for being so accepting
and open minded and honestly shout out to Corey. You
need to go to Corey's website and check out the
picture of her winning prom queen because this is beaming

(29:38):
like she looked so happy and I was like, oh
my god, my heart is melting. That's awesome. Um. And
this year, Nico Nelson one prom queen at Homestead of
High School in Wisconsin, and she wrote, I didn't win
palm cream for being a transgender girl. I won prom
queen for being Nico Nelson. Hell yeah, what I'm saying.

(30:01):
On the one hand, it is very important to acknowledge
what is historic markers of progressivism. Right a trans girl
winning prom queen in Wisconsin, it's being red. But on
the other hand, I love that Nico knows that she
didn't win because she's trans. This isn't some sharity act
to one because it's probably a really cool girl. Yeah,
niker does sound really cool. We have another aspect of

(30:23):
prom to touch on, and it's s e X. But
first we have one last quick break for a word
from our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you sponsor. It's
time to talk about sex baby. Let's talk about sex baby.

(30:43):
Let's talk about you. Fun fact and once in that
Salton Pepper at the NBC green room and it was
the best day of my life. Oh it was. It
was one if it's one of the top five best
moments in my life. Oh man, I bet did you see?
Did you? I was definitely creeping them out with my intensity.

(31:07):
They I could tell they were like, this person is
going to skin us alive and wear us like like masks.
I was like giving them all this intense energy and
they could feel it and it was weird, but I
didn't care. I was so happy. Okay, A far from
salt and pepper. We wanted to talk about sex. The
problem more like how girls what they wear has been

(31:30):
police Oh so heavily policed. If listened to one of
the earlier episodes that we did around dress codes, will
sound pretty familiar to you. Basically, prom it's kind of
a time where police being women's bodies comes through via
dress codes. And what's interesting is that you don't really
see a lot of dress codes for male students. It's

(31:50):
really only for young women. Sometimes the dress codes get
a little gross, you know, keeping in mind that these
are adults policing the dress of young people. It kind
can get a little bit creepy. The way that it's
talked about. Well, you be the judge, and you tell
me what you think. In response to an article called
school dress codes have a serious sexism problem. Plymouth Christian

(32:13):
High School principle and Grand Rapids, Michigan Jim Basin wrote
a piece about how prom dress codes are there to
keep girls from becoming quote sex objects, and honestly, it's
just kind of weird to me. He writes. By requiring
female students to dress modestly, we are not penalizing them.
We are protecting them exclamation point. We do not want
the girls to be considered quote sex objects. God forbid,

(32:34):
They're worth this so much greater than that. We don't
want them going out with people who want them only
for their body parentheses or sex close parentheses. We desire
the best for them. We don't want them to be
a statistic parentheses, teen pregnancy, etcetera. He also writes women
to not be afraid of their sexuality. Women to be
afraid of those who admire them only for their quote

(32:56):
great body. We would like them to preserve this wonderful
gift parentheses virginity. In case you were like, what gift
is that? For their quote one and only. Yes, this
is how we spend our educational energy, teaching our children
to respect themselves and each other. And I don't know
that just reads this weird To me, it feels very gross. Um.

(33:18):
And this is a high school principle writing about high
school girls. Yes, this reminds me of UM writing a
same There was this teacher at my high school and
she was notoriously tough, so tough, like people would whisper
her name, did you get miss Tepton? Like you knew
who she was. She was really hardcore grammar everything, and

(33:41):
she would call you out on this, similar to what
this principle wrote so much for. I feel like what
he's trying to do is use language that he doesn't
really know, as like he knows that people on the
quote other side of the she would use. And he's
trying to turn it around and say, I know, I

(34:03):
know what you're worried about, but I know that too,
but this is what I'm doing. I'm actually more worried
than you are about this thing. I hate that technique. Yeah,
and my she would have called him out. I bet
she'd be like, yeah, tear Jim Bazin com a high
school principle a new one because this is weird and growth. Yeah,

(34:26):
and he's also trying to I feel like a lot
of Oh, I can't remember the word. But it's when
you do that an emotional um kind of it's like
really thin and any kind of factor, any steps in
stalls just emotional. So basically we all want to protect
our young women, don't. We were all on the same
side here, right, you know? And so you're the monster

(34:48):
for disagreeing. How dare you want? How dare you want
a girl to wear what she wanted from? How dare
you want a woman to be seen as a sex object?
I would never want such a thing. That's why she
must only wear this monsters. Yeah. Also, what I hate
about this, and and I think that this comes up
in our dress Code episode as well, is that lecturing
girls about how they are dressed pretty much says that

(35:11):
boys have no responsibility to be able to control every
sexual urge that they have. And so saying that, oh,
if you're dressed sexy at prom, boys don't want to
have sex with you. Therefore you need to cover up
so that doesn't happen. What about teaching boys that, yeah,
you're maybe you're gonna see a sexy girl with a
slit in her dress at prom, and maybe you're gonna

(35:32):
have feelings about that, but you gotta deal with it,
like we in the adult world. People get distracted by
other people's bodies all the time, and you don't need
to act on it. It's not a big deal. It
isn't the young woman's responsibility to change her behavior in
order to keep him from being distracted or feeling like
he needs to act on it or whatever. We should

(35:52):
be teaching boys that, yeah, you're gonna be in the
world with people who are a dressed all kinds of ways,
and you're gonna have to deal. We're not preparing them
for reality and a kind of way, and we're saying
that your inability to control your urges. And also it's
it's just I think it's if you really m back,
it's rude to the young man because it's saying you
are such a dumb animal. We don't even expect you

(36:14):
to be able to control the way that you feel
when you see a girl in a dress. So we're
not even gonna we're not even gonna put that out
of your plate. She's got it. We're gonna put a
blanket on her. We got it. And honestly, men should
be offended by that. Really, Oh, absolutely completely puts the
onus on the young woman two dress a certain way

(36:35):
to protect herself. It takes away like any kind of
responsibility or even agency from the young man or are
really anybody? Um? And I think I mentioned before on
the show that I grew up feeling I didn't I
didn't know how to vocalize it at the time, but
very scared of my own body, just because we get
those messages all the time, like your body is gross

(36:57):
and weird and dangerous to walk around it. Yeah, you're
going to attract their own kind of attention, and it
could be anything. It could be some something that you
thought was a super innocent, modest thing, but someone else
didn't see that, And that's on you. It's your responsibility.
And I think that's a very insidious message and we

(37:18):
should move away from that absolutely. Well you know who's
sort of leading that charge. Tweens. Yes, tweens are not
standing for that. BS. The generation below us is flat
out rejecting those notions and those sort of insidious ideas
about their own bodies. At quite high school, they started
to change that organetition against the rigid dress code or

(37:40):
prom at their school. This dress code banned backless dresses
where the back dipped below the bra strap area, high slits,
and dresses that show a bare mid drift or contain
cutouts that which expose bare skin and that actually does
not sound super reasonable to me, Like a backless dress.
Your back is not genitals, you know, like your your

(38:01):
back is your back. Boys have backs like not to
mention it totally kind of pretends that there aren't people
who exist along the spectrum of a gender. And so
if you're saying, well, it's got to wear this, girl's
gotta wear this or girls can't wear this, it just
sort of reinforces this idea that there's just one type
of clothing or attire and girls are wearing this and

(38:21):
boys are wearing this, and we're gonna regulated as such,
which we know isn't true. Yeah. Um. It kind of
brings to mind the ultimate of ultimate all Time proms
Can Film Festival and Kristen Seart she just made news
by taking off her high heels because it's a woman.
You have to have high heels on the red carpet.
It can which is oh this I wanted how an

(38:45):
experience with well not can I wish? Similar to Cam
jay Z's forty forty club in Brooklyn, New York, I
went with my friends, and I if you met me
in real life, you know I'm tall. I'm like six
ft tall. I was not wearing heels because I warn
he sometimes, but I don't wear them often because I'm
already tall. And and also it's my business, like I

(39:08):
don't have to wear heels. And I got there and
and it's a it's a nightclubs. We were dressed in
club attire that I couldn't get in because I was
wearing I was not wearing heels, and so I was
wearing nice boots, like nice expensive boots, but they weren't heels,
and so yeah, I guess I don't know if it's
still the rule, But jay Z, your club rules are sexist, bro,
because I couldn't get into the club in my boots,

(39:31):
which were very nice and very expensive, because they were
not heels. And I think it's the so okay, contact
is crazy. You're listening. And I waited in line like that,
Me and my friends were all wearing heels so they
could all get into We had to have that moment
of well do you want where the night ends? I

(39:52):
think I was like we were Actually what ended up
happening was we were going for our friends like special
night out, and I didn't want to be the friend
who ruined everything, so I said, you guys go in,
I'll hit up a dive it's fine. And I drank
for myself in a dive bar and actually was a
fun night. Jaz, don't jay Z, don't call me fine.
This is so funny because if on the like chart

(40:14):
of what I discussed in a week of my life,
jay Z is off. I don't know what's going on.
He's come up in so many conversation. It's number one
in the charts right now. I don't know why or how,
but some the stars have aligned and jay Z is
just in like every conversation. My other show, food Stuff.
We asked him to contact us on There's Oh my god,

(40:35):
he might actually even touch if anyone knows him. Make
sure that he we he's like in the air, yeah yeah, yeah,
just make sure he's aware. Yeah. Anyway, back to prom.
It's weird because you're supposed to be sexy at prom,
but not too sexy. It's again, it's that tight rope
that we were expected to walk, and I'm glad that

(40:56):
we're the tweens are leading this charge away from it um,
and I hope to anyone listening is getting ready for
prom that you have a great experience. I remember how
exciting it was. I got my hair, like well, I
got my friend to do my hair. That was a
big deal for me and makeup and it was very exciting.
So I hope we continue to see this progress. And

(41:19):
I hope everyone has a safe but fun time. I
hope so too. I hope that you dance to whatever
your version of one more time by definitely get your
prom and it's amazing. You've a fun moment of looking
your man at your friends and everyone's happy. I also
want to say, if you're a young person listening and
you're someone for whom a big prom posal and a
big things prom and that is your jam, that is awesome.

(41:41):
Own that. If you're someone for whom that is not
the case, that is also fine. Don't feel pressured that
you have to be part of or not be part
of the spectacle of prom. Have it be your own thing,
whatever you feel comfortable doing. I wish there had been
someone that said that about a lot of things when
I was growing up, that it was okay, you can
dip it in about lean in, lean out whatever I felt, right,

(42:02):
you know, And yeah, where would you want if you
want to rock a suit? Do it if you want to,
you know, if you're like, just do your do your thing.
I think that we should be encouraging young people to
do their thing at prom, and if that thing is
I wish I if I could go back a new
prom again, I would have worn a suit because I
was much more aligned with how I felt. But I
didn't and my mom would never have allowed that. But yeah,

(42:26):
I wish that we had a place where we were
telling young people to you know, do you I guess
that's I guess that's the job. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Like,
if you're listening to this and prom isn't your thing,
you don't want to go, don't go. I I didn't
go to it. Another we had like another kind of
prom adjacent thing and I didn't go, and I had

(42:46):
a great time eating pizza and watching bad horror movies
with my friends. Also, after I got kicked out of
that one from we went to go watch a horror
movie at a movie theater and I had my really
nice dress and I threw on a T shirt that
was so like email and goth I got from hot
topic over the dress, and I put on converses and
then we came out of the theater and it was

(43:08):
fast curfew and got to trouble again. Oh my god,
any you are just like I'm just trying to live
my life and making mistakes along the way. That's that's
our that's our motto. Tag us in all those prom
pictures on Instagram at stuff I've Never Told You, And
that's those prom related tweets at mom Stuff podcast and

(43:29):
as always, hit us up on email mom stuff at
how Stuff Work dot com.