June 3, 2015 • 52 mins
Laverne Cox's breakout role in "Orange Is the New Black" was a watershed moment for transgender representation on television. Cristen and Caroline talk to trans activist and writer Raquel Willis about Cox's Hollywood activism, the Caitlyn Jenner interview and trans representation progress that still needs to be made.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, listeners, we just want to offer a quick clarification
for our continued chat with Riquel about transgender issues that
we had our talk before Caitlyn Jenner came out publicly
as Caitlin. That's right, and so we mentioned Bruce Jenner
in the interview. We used the he and him pronouns because,
(00:22):
like christ And said, this was before Caitlin announced that
she was indeed Caitlyn Jenner. Welcome to stuff Mom Never
told you. From House Supports dot com. Hello, and welcome
(00:45):
to the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline, and we
are back today with transactivists writer and friend Riquel Willis
to talk about transgender representation on TV. And Caroline, I'm
just gonna toss out a name less to a little
free association. Laverne Cox awesome, amazing, Yeah, gorgeous everywhere all
(01:08):
the time, changing the world. Yeah, magazine covers man. Yeah,
orange is the new Black. Hello, Sophia, so good. I'm
only going to speak in staccato phrases from here on out. Yeah. Well,
I mean the reason that Laverne Cox is so awesome
and that we're going to be speaking a lot about
her today and the Laverne Cox effect, isn't It's not
(01:31):
only that she's playing real, warm blooded, actual people on TV,
but she's using her incredible platform for good. This woman
has not only starred in TV shows like Orange Is
the New Black, but she's also behind the camera producing
documentaries featuring the lives of trans teens out there in
(01:53):
the world who are just trying to get by as well.
And so she's an incredibly important figure to talk about. Yeah,
I mean, speaking of documentary, she just won a Daytime
Emmy for producing the MTV documentary Laverne Cox Presents the
T Word, which Raquel is going to talk about a
little bit more later in the show. And the thing
(02:14):
about Laverne Cox too is that she well understands, not surprisingly,
the type casting of trans characters that we focus on
a lot in our last episode. You know, before she
got her big break, she did have to play a
number of sex workers. She did have the brief characters
in Law and Order as like we mentioned the last episode,
(02:37):
as did pretty much every A List character today. And
she also though, in terms of using her platform and
being an openly trans woman in Hollywood, she made history
as the first openly transgender woman nominated for an Emmy
last year for Orange is the New Black. And in
addition to Orange Is the New Black, she's made guest
(02:59):
appearances on The Mindy Project, Faking It and Girlfriend's Guy
to Divorce, And she recently wrapped a pilot for CBS
called Doubt, in which she plays a lawyer wearing lots
of cool pants suits and I'm definitely excited to see it.
And and of course Laverne Cox isn't the only example
(03:21):
of rising transgender visibility that we've seen in the past
twelve months. And so of course, in addition to Laverne Cox,
you've got the wonderful Janna Mak who has her show
on MSNBC. She did a fabulous interview with Oprah Um.
But of course we also have the news that sort
of took over the entire Internet for a little while,
(03:42):
which was the Bruce Jenner interview with Diane Sawyer. Seventeen
million people tuned in to watch that, and Jenner's own
personal docuseries is coming to the E Network in July
of Yeah, and then you have Scott Turner, who also
briefly took over the Internet with news Um when he
(04:04):
became daytime TVs first openly transactor and playing a trans
character notably as well on The Bold and the Beautiful,
And then you also have projects like Becoming Us, which
is in the pipeline for ABC Family, which is focusing
on a fictional team dealing with a parents transition, which
sounds kind of like Transparent on Amazon from maybe one
(04:28):
of the kids perspectives. But as we're going to talk
about with her Keel more in depth today, while it's
incredible to see the pace of how this transvisibility has
really permeated pop culture, you know, into mainstream Middle America,
(04:49):
there's still a long way to go. And we just
want to briefly talk about this two thousand and twelve
study that GLAD conducted looking at the representation and of
transgender characters in TV and film. And Nick Adams, who's
the director of the trans Media Program at GLAD, said,
there's a perception that there's been an explosion of transgender
(05:12):
characters on TV, but when you look at the numbers,
that's not true. And he was telling that to Variety magazine. Yeah,
and Adams goes on to talk about how, according to
the GLAD survey, only one show on broadcast TV that's
not Netflix, that's not Amazon, that's broadcast TV currently features
a trans regular and that's The Bowl and the Beautiful,
(05:34):
And not a single studio movie last year had a
prominent trans character. Yeah, And and digging a little deeper
into that study, which analyzed film and television over the
last ten years, the survey found that more than half
of trans characters depicted on TV were portrayed in a
negative light. And we're problematic in various kinds of ways. So,
(05:59):
for instance, fort pent of the time you saw a
trans character on television in the past ten years, they
were cast in a victim kind of role. At least
twenty one percent of the time they were cast as
killers or villains. And and the victim and the killer
stereotypes were things that we touched on too in our
last episode, because these are some of the common tropes
(06:21):
that trans characters tend to be tossed into. Yeah, And actually,
the most common profession that we saw trans characters in
was that of sex workers. Of those character depictions were
working as sex workers. And of course, there were plenty
of storylines at least sixty one percent of the catalog
(06:43):
episodes that included ant trancelors, language and dialogue in the episode. Now,
I would be curious to see what would happen if
they adjusted their data set to include fourteen and fifteen,
because I have a feeling that the numbers would change
in a positive way. But still, as we're going to
(07:04):
talk to Riquel about nonetheless, even where we are right
now today in mid again, more progress needs to be
made because there's still in all of the media coverage
about it. In the way even that networks talk about
these kinds of characters or these entire kinds of shows
(07:26):
like ABC Families Becoming Us, there's this novelty factor attached
to it of like, oh, well, we're going to be
a little bit new and different and show this storyline
that you've never really seen before, which kind of I
don't know, it still is other ing in a way, right, Yeah,
it's still can be mothering, And I mean that raises
(07:47):
the question of, you know, are we in a very
hopeful manner working toward really wonderful trans visibility and trans representation,
or are we eventually be on that working toward Well, yeah,
there's just a trans character on that show. Yeah, they're
I mean, they're just that's just x y Z character
Like cool. There's no need need to call it out necessarily.
(08:08):
It's just known and accepted kind of like, oh well,
if there's a lesbian on the cast, like, oh well, yeah,
that's just a lesbian character. That's just Stacy, right. And
so it will be interesting to watch as we go
through through the years, how how quickly, because it does
seem like things have accelerated in the past couple of years,
like you said, and so it will be interesting to
(08:29):
see how quickly we get to a point where it's like, oh, yeah,
that's just that's just that character. Yeah, because I think
the litmus test is really going to be, like you said,
when we end up with these shows and these characters
where their biological sex that they were born with, that
their physical anatomy, that their transition isn't constantly the focus
(08:54):
of every single thing that they that their gender identity
isn't seen as a primary conflict in the show. So
let's get back to our conversation with Raquel, because she
has lots of helpful insights on all of this to offer.
I want to now talk about the TV show Transparent.
(09:17):
I mean, it's been a huge hit. It's made all
of these waves in the media, But a lot of
people have raised the issue online, especially that uh, it
might be problematic for sis actors to be cast in
trans roles. Do you think that this is a problem
or just do you think it depends on the actor
who's in the role. Like everything else, I think it's complex. Um.
(09:45):
I would definitely say that I personally would love to
see more transactors fulfilling role the trans characters, just because
I'm all about authentic portrayals it and it's just as
when people have issues with white people playing characters of
(10:08):
a different race. That's kind of where I stand. But
then I also know that the other side of the
argument is, well, Neil Patrick Harris plays straight character, so
why can't he play a woman? And the thing is
is that there's so much of this fast nation on
the trans experience as what you were born as, right that,
(10:30):
And that's what it is is people want to define
people based on their birth sex and not define them
based on what they tell you they identify as what
they actually live as. Um. And that's the problem that
I have, right, is that I don't think that says
(10:50):
people have as much of a say and and what
would be a healthy portrayal of a trans character because
you're not transudn't or it's very different, And I get
with Transparent, the the main argument for having Jeffrey Tambor
(11:11):
in this position is that they're showing a person pre
transition and then actually during a huge bulk of their
transition period. So I get the point that people are
trying to make with that, but I think it's very
harmful when we say that men can play women and
(11:32):
men can play trans women, because it just plays into
that whole man and addressed trope, and people don't want
to critically consider why it's okay for a trans woman
to just be a woman and not be defined by
all of this assumed history of where she comes from
and of what she looked like and of what surgery
(11:54):
she may have had or have not had. Yeah, I
mean when it comes to Jeffrey Tambor, she too. He
at least has been far more widely praised for not
only his portrayal but also in his um like during
Awards season with his acceptance speeches of acknowledging the trans community,
(12:15):
and I think he has at least shown more self
awareness in terms of this cis trans um like issue
that a lot of people raised compared to Jared Letto.
We had to mention Jared Letto, who alienated trans people
and a lot of SIS people too. Frankly um in
his role in Dallas Buyers Club, which some people said
(12:37):
where it was like far too trophy, but it was
more so his apparent trans ignorance during Awards season, like
when he won the Golden Globe, when he won his Oscar,
there was like no mention whatsoever, and even at one
point him just joking about having to get a body wax.
So I guess at least, at least with Jeffrey Tambor,
(12:58):
it's better than Jared Letto, although that is a horrible
standard that Jared better than Jared Letto. You should not
be the standard, obviously, But I wonder too how much
of a difference it would make if we had a
trans person who's behind the camera. I mean, it's something
we've talked about in terms of portrayals of of women
in film, where a lot of times, if you have
(13:21):
men writing all the roles, like, the women aren't always
portrayed so authentically so, and I think this is something
that Janet Mak has brought up before as well, it's like, well,
if we were making and directing these roles, obviously we
would be casting them differently too. Definitely, definitely, I think
there needs to be a whole entire uprooting of how
(13:44):
we've been targeting these storylines, right. I think we need
trans people in front and behind the camera. I think
we need trans people in the riding room. And I
will say, at least on transparents and Jill following the creator,
she did hire a trans writer for the next season,
so there will be a trans writer, and at least,
(14:07):
to be fair, she does have a lot of trans
characters and ensemble roles in the show, so she's really
trying to make up for the fact that the main
character is portrayed by Asi Man and and I wholeheartedly
give her a random applause for that, because that's that's
really awesome that at least when she's getting these critiques,
(14:29):
she's using them to try and make this a better
experience and a better portrayal. The only thing I will
say is that at the end of the day, this
is still a transnarrative portrayed through aist gender lens, right,
she is still even if it's coming from a place
(14:50):
of authenticity. On the end of having a parent who
has trans I still would rather hear it from her
are now mother's perspective, right, I would rather hear it
from the source instead of filtered through assist gender lens
(15:12):
and the other thing that she was. I also, just
to put this in context, A lot of times I
speak about race because I think people kind of get
that a little bit more, and I liken it to
how we're targeting transgender roles. But I liken it to
the Help. Right, there was a lot of critique on
(15:33):
having a white woman tell the story about black women
in the sixties. Right. There's a problem with that, right,
when narratives are co opted when the source isn't really
present at any step of the way. Well, and in
(15:55):
the case of The Help Too, or you have the
white narrator also playing the part of a white savior,
which only complicates matters right. Well, So it seems like
going back into TV history, the very limited TV history
that we have in recent years of trans characters on TV,
it seems like we're way more likely to see trans
(16:17):
women than we are trans men. Like going back to
Candice Cane being on a couple of different TV shows
and Rebecca remain playing a trans woman on Ugly Betty. Um,
why why, what's up with with the lack of trans
men on TV? It's complex that the title is episode Well,
(16:39):
I definitely think we have to consider that. A lot
of times it goes back to what's happening behind the scenes.
A lot of the media were producing. It's still being
created for the male lens, right, for the male gaze.
And when you think about women feminine and in womanhood,
(17:01):
you think about how sexualized it is. And so trans
women for a long time have really been relegated to pornography,
have been relegated to sex work because they were locked
out of different positions. Only now are we seeing trans
women who are creating tech companies and winning awards for
(17:22):
roles that aren't porn related. Let's be real about it.
So I think a lot of it has to do
with how sexualized trans women are, um and how when
we think about trans men within society, a lot of
times we're seeing people considering them trying to take on
(17:43):
that mail privilege, right, And that's not what it's about.
This is just someone who's trying to live their life
as authentically as anybody else. It's not about trying to
take on mail privilege, it's not about trying to take
up space as a man. The thing is is that
that isn't seen as being palatable to the male gaze, right,
(18:04):
That's not seen as as someone trying to be consumed, right.
But whereas with trans women, we automatically are seen as
trying to be consumed, trying to be seen as sexually
viable options for sis gender straight men, and that's not
the case. Well, and they're also seems to be this
(18:27):
persistent fascination, even going back to the days where the
closest you got to a transport trail was like a
cross dressing punch line, there seems to be this fascination
with the idea that a you know, a biological male
at some point would want to give all that up
(18:50):
in terms of privilege and like take on a female identity.
That seems so too, just in the way that like
you were talking about in terms of the focus on
how SI actors playing trans roles constantly puts the focus
back on well, what was your you know, you're assigned
(19:11):
sex at birth, Like it always takes it back to that.
There seems to be this thing particularly in terms of
trans women, of this like mind blowing idea that that
could ever cross someone's mind to want to be a woman, Right,
I definitely think a lot of it has to do
(19:31):
with this very fragile, constructive masculinity that we have within
our society. Right, trans women are seen as a threat.
It's seen as if you're going to transition into a woman, well,
what does that mean for me? Does that mean that
my identity is not as rigid? And maybe I'm not,
but I am, so you're wrong and I have to
(19:54):
completely ex your narrative out of the conversation, right, Well,
and then too on top of that, and we see this,
um we've seen this in film and also sometimes um
in more problematic TV representations as well, of the whole
deception element because talking about that like fragile masculinity and
heteronormativity to throw out all of the words, Um, there's
(20:18):
that panic of well, wait a second. If I'm a
straight guy and I'm attracted to you and you're a
trans woman, well does that make me a gay? World
comes crushing down? You know? There there is that it
seems like there's that fear in the background of like
what but what what does that mean about it's so
self focused, Like, but what is your identity mean about
(20:39):
my identity? Right? And and that's really how it is
with every marginalized group. Right. If women want to be
breadwinners and and have jobs and do all of these
things early on and even still now, men we're like, well,
what does that mean for me? Does that mean I'm
not as strong? Does that mean I'm not as intellectual?
(21:02):
Does that mean I'm not as amazing as I thought
I was? So I think that's very true, and and
it is important for us to also discuss the homophobia. Right.
It's like, even if you were gay, dude, like, it's fine,
But we see straight men having to constantly prove that
(21:27):
they are the stereotypical definition of masculine, that they fit
into the right box. So we see straight men having
to constantly prove their identity to us. So the interesting
thing is that none of us are really that different
after all. Right, We're all having to assert this box
(21:49):
to the general public of who we are. And the
interesting thing to me is that people think that trans
people are so fringe, are so different, But we're just
out here trying to survive and and grow and build
our dreams and aspirations like anybody else, right, We're not
trying to threaten anyone's identity. We're not out here trying
(22:13):
to make anyone feel necessarily uncomfortable. We're just living. And
I do think though it's notable that that fear of
deception does not seem to exist at all among the
CIS straight female community in terms of like, there's not
(22:35):
this like, am I going to be attracted to a
transman at some point in my life? And then will
my world come crumbling down? I just and I'm not
entirely I mean, obviously it relates back to what we're
talking about in terms of masculinity constructs. But um, and
I don't have any like deep insight into why why
(22:56):
that is Maybe because there is more of this general
except been some female sexuality is just being more fluid,
you know, we're more we're into bonding, we're into emotions.
Were not maybe so um so insecure in that I'm
asking stating that as a question up talk. Well, I mean,
there's there's less of a cultural idea of like a
(23:18):
woman having to prove her femininity by dating a like
super masculine person. You know, it's it's way more of
a cultural thing that like the man, like you were saying, Raquel,
like the man has to prove that he's super masculine,
he's got to date like somebody super feminine. Um. I
apologize for my from my fake male voice. I know
(23:40):
men don't talk like this, Um, not all men, but yeah,
I just wonder if like, culturally women kind of get
off the hook that way in terms of like it's
not a it's not a thing as much really in
our cultural conversation about a woman who like assist woman
falling in love with a trans man, it doesn't seem like, oh, well,
(24:02):
but I have to prove that I'm super feminine. Well,
because it doesn't take a particular kind of presentation for
a woman to be objectified. Like that's just how it is.
Hence us doing this podcast and talking about it all
the time. Because that is if I can run down
the road as a do when I go jogging, and
(24:23):
be disgusting and red faced and sweaty and in old
running clothes and still have you know, sexual comments yelled
my way hello that that's very true. And you'll find
if you look around there are so many stories about
(24:45):
trans men and women dating and and how amazing that is.
But you rarely find as many trans women and sith
men about their relationships. There's shame around, um, a man
(25:08):
being attracted to a trans woman, But yet we see
so many more trans women on TV and in movies,
and yet their romantic plot lines are often problematized because
of being trans. That was something we read a whole
paper about this, where romance is always the conflict because
(25:29):
of exactly what you're talking about, right, Definitely, I think
it's interesting that we've seen a lot of trans women
characters at least in these main roles, but still their
validation and their identity is so contingent on the men
(25:49):
in their lives. Right, we will still see the main
character of a trans woman put down and really dismissed
as an actual viable romantic or sexual option just because
of our trans status. So you're perfectly right that a
(26:10):
lot of times the romance is something that's not seen
as a possibility. Well, and when it comes to attraction
in general too, it seems like pop culturally all of
the a lot of these representations also are still heteronormative,
to the point of assuming that the trans women are
(26:35):
exclusively attracted to men too. I mean, there's so many
different layers to it. There's so much conflating too of
gender identity and sexual orientation. Like clearly, we even though
we were seeing more and more of these characters and
having trans icons like Liverne Cox, you know, really becoming
household names, we still have a lot to learn, right,
(26:59):
and that's why I think the Orange and the New
Black narrative is very important. At least early on, we
see lavarn Cox of character Sophia Barthett and her wife
making it right at least trying to make this happen.
But again, her wife is not a lesbian and so
(27:22):
that did problem with hide their storyline. But at the
very least we see her still loving the person that
Sophia is. Yeah, but then you also see Sophia continue
on in the show as a regular human character who
has problems and joys and sadness just like all of
the other characters on the show. Her story isn't built
(27:45):
solely upon that relationship with her wife. Um, she's more
multifaceted than that, which I think is something something we're
celebrating that it doesn't just stop with like, oh, well,
you know, she transitioned and the relationship broke up, and
let's judge her because of that. There was there's so
much more to her character, which is good to see.
(28:08):
And so then that leads me to the question of
what you think about this whole Laverne Cox effect, especially
across sort of across media in general, and why you
think that she has had such a bigger cultural influence
than someone like Candice Kane, who was sort of a
pioneer in TV. I think Laverne Cox is very unique
(28:29):
because as soon as she hit the scene, she made
a point to talk about trans issues right, talking about
issues that are real, talking about people like Seizing McDonald,
the trans woman from Minneapolis who she killed her attacker
(28:50):
and self defense because he was throwing racist and transphobic
flars at her and her friends and attacking them. You
see her talking about the trans woman Ellen Nettles, who
was killed by an attacker and a hate crime right
outside of a police station and no one really did
anything about it. So Laverne Cox deserves all of the
(29:14):
credit that she gets because she has taken her platform
and use it for goodwill towards all trans people. She
literally talks about the hard hitting issues that effect that
she talks about disenfranchisement, she talks about lack of adequate
housing and health qu care and discrimination in terms of
(29:36):
trying to find housing. So she's hitting all of these
marks and that is why she's become such a cultural figure. Well.
Speaking of Levern Cox to one of her projects outside
of Oranges in New Black is a documentary on trans
teens that she oversaw for MTV, and that made me
(29:57):
think about perhaps differences in more reality types of programming
versus scripted And I was wondering if you've seen any
kinds of any ways in which maybe in reality on
reality TV, are trans characters allowed to be more themselves?
Are they still subject to a lot of these tropes
(30:20):
that scripted television is only finally now slowly breaking out of.
I definitely think with Reality TV it is breaking away
from these scripts that are often written by people who
don't really know about the trans experience, may not even
actually know a trans person, and probably won't even cast
(30:40):
the trans person, so let's not even go there. But
I definitely think Reality TV, at least on the documentary front,
is helping us see literally realistic portrays portrayals of trans
people and the T Word, which is the documentary that
she did. I mean, it's phenomenal and it does let
(31:03):
people know that trans people come in all ages, right,
you know, trans people aren't necessarily just transitioning at sixty
like Bruce Jenner. Trans people, our teams, trans people are
kids like Jazz Jennings, the fourteen year old who's about
to have her own reality show AND's TLC. I mean,
(31:25):
we're everywhere, and it's great to see that being acknowledged.
And I also want to say, I think the other
interesting thing about Laverne Cox is that she does not
shy away from talking about trans issues. I think, and
don't quote me on this, I'm not completely sure, but
I think with people like Candice Cane and trans women
(31:47):
before her, who were pioneers, a lot of it was
about passing and not letting on so much that you
were trans right, and just trying to be seen as
a normal person. And then sis gender was considered normal, right.
We didn't even have the term such gender because it
(32:08):
was like normal people and trans people. But now people
like Laverne Cox, people like Janet Mock are like, just
as I am a black person, just as I am
a woman, I am a transgender woman. It is just
one other descriptor of me as anything else. I will
educate you as much as I can, but it is
(32:30):
not not all that there is to me. Yeah, it's
it's wanting to be seen for who you are, not
wanting people to stop at their own preconceived notions of
what you're supposed to be. And that's I mean, that's
true of anybody though. You just want to be seen
for who you are. But then, I mean, speaking more
on the reality show front, and specifically about Bruce Jenner,
(32:50):
what was your take on on the interview. I mean,
social media like exploded. Social media was all over that story.
I am kind of shocked, right that so many people
are or at least had been, talking about the Bridge
Ginner interview, and so many people watched it. I mean,
(33:11):
it was one of the highest rated ABC specials in
a long time. And it's great, right because I think
that Bridie Genner was very down to earth with his approach.
And I'm using him because he said that that was
okay at least at this point in the interview. But
(33:32):
I saw him using a realistic approach. I saw him
making sure to not make a spectacle of his situation.
A lot of it was, and this is problematic on
one hand, but necessary. It was abating the fears that
people had, right, It was abating the fact that people
(33:53):
see being trans as this crazy rebellious thing to do
within our scie. But it's not. It's just a fact
of life for some people. And I thought it was
also great that he at least had these little segments
of the interview that did talk about other trans people,
that did talk about marginalization for other trans people who
(34:16):
aren't wealthy and well to do and aren't cultural figures
like he is. Right, he on some level acknowledge that
he had a privilege to even have this platform to
use his story to educate people in too inspire other people.
The only thing is that I hope we will see
(34:39):
more trans people being able to tell their stories in
that way and be able to lift that veil a
little bit more, because again, that is a singular story,
that is one person story, one trans person story. That
is not how it is for everyone who is trans.
And I hope most of the people understood that. Well,
(35:03):
do you think that this is positioning him as a
trans icon? I think yes, unfortunately, and I think a
lot of times the larger society gets to choose who
(35:24):
the icons for the marginalians groups are, right, because you
see that with people immortalizing m Okay. Yes, m Okay
was a brilliant guy for the black community, but he
was not the only guy. You know, you never hear
people talk about people like Malcolm G's as much as
they talk about people like m Okay. You never hear
(35:45):
them talking about Angela Davis as much as they talk
about m Okay. And and so I wonder if people
will talk about Bruce Jenner in the future more than
they talk about someone like Laverne Cox, someone like Janet
ma Uck. And it's almost unfair on two hands because
it completely outshines all of the work that people like
(36:10):
laver And Cox and Janet Mock have been doing since
the beginning of their media careers. And it's unfair to
Bruce Jenner to put all of this weight on his
shoulder when he's really just starting his transition. Right. The
expectation to be a spokesperson and an educator just because
(36:30):
you fit within an identity is unfair, And I think
a lot of times trans people have been forced to
educate people around them when it's like, look, you have
Google now, like you can look up some of this
one on one stuff and not ask me all of
these questions. Well yeah, I mean I think you see
(36:51):
that in interviews both with Janet Mock and Laver and Cox,
who are like, listen, you know if you want to
talk about things like the actual ins and out of
the transition and the surgery, like, let's well, we can
talk offline. You can again use the Google. But it's
like there's a bigger story at hand than just like
the actual physical stuff. Well and imagine you and I
(37:15):
sitting here Caroline too, sis gender straight women, Like how
bananas it seems to have if we were to have
to explain our bodies, what was under our clothes and
what is in our minds and what are like sexual
orientation was every few days constantly just be like no, no,
(37:36):
no no. So here's the breakdown. This is me Like,
we get to just live our lives. We don't have
to like go through all of those things. No one,
no one is waiting for us to be the spokesperson
a sist people because that doesn't you know, we we
just accepted as as it is. Yeah, well, moving forward raquel,
(37:59):
pulling it back to trans representations on TV. Clearly we've
made progress, but clearly there's still lots of progress that
can be made. So I'm just wondering near ideal night,
you're sitting down, you're relaxing, you tear on the TV.
What kinds of trans characters would you like to see
(38:21):
on TV? What kinds of roles would you love to
see portrayed by transactors. I guess I'm more concerned right now,
at least seeing trans people period out in the world
in real life, in more positions, right, having more access,
having to not worry about basic things like which bathroom
(38:45):
to use and whether they will be allowed to use
the restroom comfortably. I would like to see trans people
not worrying about finding a safe school that they can
attend and being validated in their idea and he's and
not have to worry about that. I want to see
trans people being able to be lawyers and politicians and
(39:08):
doctors without all of this baggage and where they came from,
and that mirrors what I would like to see on television, right.
I would love to see a trans Alle mcbell as
just the Ally mcbeill character. And not have to worry
as much about where she came from and how she
(39:28):
knew she was trans and all of these one on
one questions. I want to get beyond the basics, get
literally get beyond the label of transgender, and talk about
what it just means to just exists in this world. Right,
It's interesting to me that everything has to be literally
(39:54):
black and white, it has to be sis and trans.
Why can't we just have whole listing narratives to begin with.
Why can't we have the Office with a main transgender
character and not be a huge deal. Why can't we
have a show like Girls have a trans woman in
a main role, or I mean, we're still fighting to
(40:18):
have racial representations and main roles. It just boggles my
mind that people I can't think beyond having an all
black cast or an all white cast, or in all
of this cast just mix it up people, well, especially
since you know there's the argument of like, well I
just you know, I just write what I know, and oh,
(40:40):
I was I only have white people or or six
women in my group of friends, so that's all I'm
going to write about. And it's like, well, you do
realize that this is television which is a made up land,
and you can have any type of character that you
have choose to include. And so it's like, come on, like,
let's get on the diversity bandwagon here and and recognize
that it's not only okay, but but wonderful and ultimately
(41:03):
super beneficial to show different types of stories. Right. And
it's funny, it's like you're doing more work than you
have to write because you have to make your storylines
that much more off the beaten path and that much
more over the top because you don't have basic diverse representation. Right,
(41:29):
you could easily make a character who doesn't look like
you interact with a character who might look like you,
and that's your drama. Right. They are people, that is
That is the beauty of art. This is an art, right,
you know, I think beyond all of this. I know
(41:49):
you encounter people of color. I know you encounter trans people,
especially in the positions that these people are creating media.
You encounter so many types of people that the regular
people like me don't encounter. You probably encounter a transperson
before I encountered a transfer THEE And I do think
(42:12):
that this kind of diversity and showing these kinds of
holistic stories as you talk about, matters so much more
on TV than say, compared to film, because that is
what is in everyone's homes and those are the stories
that we gather around every night. And you know, film
(42:36):
is important too, Obviously we've talked about representation in film before,
but film takes so much more time and money to
produce and it's not as accessible for everybody. But I feel, like,
you know, Laverne Cox and Orange Is a New Black
had such a moment because everyone I knew was watching
it and couldn't stop watching it, and they were tweeting
(42:57):
about and posting about it. If you weren't up to speed,
it was all spoiler alerts and me like was social
life for a while. So TV is such such such
a powerful medium, and that drives on the point even
more to not be dismissive if you're a creator, to
just say, will just read and want to know doing
(43:18):
my best? No, you're not right. I mean if people
are out here and making sci fi films and sci
fi shows and and we've got X Men, mutants and
and superheroes and all of these different characters and Game
of Thrones, right, and Game of Thrones, Like why can't
(43:38):
we just I'm just asking for an office trans person
to just walk in and share their story and that
be it. I'm not asking for the world, and I'm
not apt, and I'm not necessarily asking you to definitely
include a trans person, right, but when you do include it,
(43:59):
when you do include a trans person, at least make
it real. At least make it a real role, a
real characterization. Well, speaking of that, then, Riquel, what would
you recommend to our listeners as a show or a
specific character or a film that is a good example
(44:24):
of exactly what you're talking about, so that we can
help educate our listeners even more as well. Well, I
would definitely say, first of all, if you have not
seen Orange as the New Black, come out from under
that rock and get into it. Laverne Cox knocks it
out of the ballpark. It's great. Transparent is fine. Um,
(44:47):
I definitely think that it is a fairly good representation,
not going into the fact that the sissman is playing
a trans woman. And then I actually would recommend this
movie called Gunhill Road. It starred a trans woman named
(45:08):
Harmony Santana, young trans Latina actress. It was a very good,
down to earth portrayal, and she was low income, but
she wasn't a tragic character. So that was a very
good movie. And I would recommend the The T Word
documentary that Laverne Cox said a lot of Laverne Cox
(45:30):
on this list. Clearly she's awesome, but it was it
was very great. It it really showed what it's like
to be a transcene and and I would just say
stay tuned. It seems like there there are a lot
of good transnarratives that are coming out in the media soon.
There's all that Jazz featuring Jazz Jennings, the fourteen year
old girl who actually is a spokesperson for I think
(45:53):
It's Clean and Clear Now, and she was in this
huge media campaign for them, but that would be coming
out the summer. A lot of other things will be
coming out this summer, so just stay tuned. Awesome, Well,
thanks so much for talking to us, Riquel. So, uh,
you know, we did mention a couple of times that
you're you're you're all over the internet, So could you
(46:14):
tell our listeners where they can find out more about
your writing and what you're up to. Sure, So I
have a blog called Consciousness Raising Dot Tumbler dot com.
I post all of my writings there. I've been writing
on medium dot com also and the Huffington Posts. I
have a blog on there, so there are a couple
(46:34):
of different things they are. And I also started a
YouTube channel not so long ago called Beyond the Label,
and I talk a lot about trans issues, um, but
I'm also talking about intersectional feminist issues too and race
and all that good stuff, so you can check that
out as well well. Raquel, thank you so much for
(46:55):
coming on the show and talking to us and hang
out with us. And just ng Rad, thank you for
having me. It's been fun. So now once again we
want to hear from you on this topic of trans
representations on TV. And I know that we have transgender
men and women in our audience, and we especially would
(47:16):
love to hear from you and get your first person
opinion on all of this stuff that's happening on the
big screen and the small screen. And we want to
know what kinds of characters that you're especially drawn to
or characters that you would prefer to never ever see again.
Let us know. Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot
(47:36):
com is our email address. You can also tweet us
at mom Stuff Podcasts or messages on Facebook, and we've
got a couple of messages to share with you right now. Okay, Well,
I have a letter here from Jessica about the interview
we did with Nina McLaughlin, author of Hammerhead and Carpenter Extraordinaire,
(47:58):
and Jessica writes, it was so much fun to hear
a positive, insightful woman talking about her experience. I heartily
agree with her about the unparalleled satisfaction attained by building
something lasting. I grew up working in a construction company
and dancing classical ballet. These two disparate passions have given
my life a highly gendered and deeply rewarding contrast. In college,
(48:22):
I even did a performance art piece about the tension
this has created in my concept of femaleness. After college,
I ran my own construction company and later my own
ballet school. I now work in sales for an international
adhesives and building materials manufacturing company. Being in the trades
in many different positions has led me to conceal my
gender at times for various reasons. As a boss, I
(48:45):
hired a gender nonconforming person as a helper, as well
as a CIS gendered person, which is made for a
wonderfully diverse crew. I have done everything from excavation to roofing,
masonry and tile, electrical plumbing, sheet rock and taping, siding,
framing and struck shoral renovation, mostly because I enjoyed working
with my father more than my brothers did, and chose
(49:05):
to go to work with him year after year. Eventually
he had me work as a sort of foreman, overseeing
projects and running crews, managing subs when he couldn't be there.
I later learned about landscaping and agriculture, doing both for
work because I enjoy working with my hands, working hard,
and making things beautiful. I now use both my undergrad
degree in international comparative studies and my experience in construction
(49:27):
in my current job as an architectural sales rep. Although
I missed the deep satisfaction and accomplishment, not to mention
physical exhaustion construction always gave me. And She goes on
to say that she agrees with Nina, and she loves
the Japanese pulsaw too. But one of the big problems
for women entering the field is the way the tools
are designed. Women's hands being smaller than men's, making most
(49:48):
power tools very difficult to use, but your forearms and
hands gained strength as you struggle, and if you persevere,
you will succeed. No shame in buying the fourteen point
four vault drill instead of the ubiquitous eighteen volt. If
you're swinging that thing over your head and hanging up
a stud wall ten hours a day, it's got to
be comfortable. She says. I could go on and on,
(50:09):
but you've made me so happy with your work. I'm
a longtime listener and now my nine year old daughter
is a fan too, So thank you so much, Jessica. Well,
I've got a letter here from Matt also about our
episode with Carpenter plus writer Nina McLaughlin, and he writes,
thanks for the wonderful podcast. I've had my eyes open
to so much. I'd never have considered it all before
(50:32):
I started listening. I was delighted to hear your last
episode about would Work. Nina's story sounds very familiar. I too,
found out I love would work more than my web
development day job after going on a brief training course
at a local castle. And yes I did not misspeak,
he said a local castle. Matt. I have a million
follow up questions for you now anyway, just to shout
(50:56):
out if any listeners are thinking about trying this, I
would highly recommend and Paul Sellers online video tutorials. He
is a true gentleman and highly skilled. He's dedicating his
later life to training people in hand tool would work
and strongly encourages ladies and children to the craft. He's
recently found the internet can help him in this endeavor,
and perhaps your listeners would like to try some of
(51:18):
the free videos he supplies or read his extensive blog
on the topic of woodwork. So Matt says you can
go to Paul Sellers dot com for his blog or
Woodworking Masterclasses dot com for his online classes. Keep up
the great work. I look forward to being educated through
many more episodes. Well, thanks Matt for the recommendations, and
(51:39):
thanks to everyone who's written in to us Mom stuff
at house. Stuff works dot Com is our email address
and for links to all of our social media as
well as all of our blogs, videos and podcasts, including
this one. With links so you can follow Raquel head
on over to stuff Mom Never Told You dot com.
(52:00):
More on this and thousands of other topics, visit how
stuff Works dot com.
Hey, listeners, we just want to offer a quick clarification
for our continued chat with Riquel about transgender issues that
we had our talk before Caitlyn Jenner came out publicly
as Caitlin. That's right, and so we mentioned Bruce Jenner
in the interview. We used the he and him pronouns because,
(00:22):
like christ And said, this was before Caitlin announced that
she was indeed Caitlyn Jenner. Welcome to stuff Mom Never
told you. From House Supports dot com. Hello, and welcome
(00:45):
to the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline, and we
are back today with transactivists writer and friend Riquel Willis
to talk about transgender representation on TV. And Caroline, I'm
just gonna toss out a name less to a little
free association. Laverne Cox awesome, amazing, Yeah, gorgeous everywhere all
(01:08):
the time, changing the world. Yeah, magazine covers man. Yeah,
orange is the new Black. Hello, Sophia, so good. I'm
only going to speak in staccato phrases from here on out. Yeah. Well,
I mean the reason that Laverne Cox is so awesome
and that we're going to be speaking a lot about
her today and the Laverne Cox effect, isn't It's not
(01:31):
only that she's playing real, warm blooded, actual people on TV,
but she's using her incredible platform for good. This woman
has not only starred in TV shows like Orange Is
the New Black, but she's also behind the camera producing
documentaries featuring the lives of trans teens out there in
(01:53):
the world who are just trying to get by as well.
And so she's an incredibly important figure to talk about. Yeah,
I mean, speaking of documentary, she just won a Daytime
Emmy for producing the MTV documentary Laverne Cox Presents the
T Word, which Raquel is going to talk about a
little bit more later in the show. And the thing
(02:14):
about Laverne Cox too is that she well understands, not surprisingly,
the type casting of trans characters that we focus on
a lot in our last episode. You know, before she
got her big break, she did have to play a
number of sex workers. She did have the brief characters
in Law and Order as like we mentioned the last episode,
(02:37):
as did pretty much every A List character today. And
she also though, in terms of using her platform and
being an openly trans woman in Hollywood, she made history
as the first openly transgender woman nominated for an Emmy
last year for Orange is the New Black. And in
addition to Orange Is the New Black, she's made guest
(02:59):
appearances on The Mindy Project, Faking It and Girlfriend's Guy
to Divorce, And she recently wrapped a pilot for CBS
called Doubt, in which she plays a lawyer wearing lots
of cool pants suits and I'm definitely excited to see it.
And and of course Laverne Cox isn't the only example
(03:21):
of rising transgender visibility that we've seen in the past
twelve months. And so of course, in addition to Laverne Cox,
you've got the wonderful Janna Mak who has her show
on MSNBC. She did a fabulous interview with Oprah Um.
But of course we also have the news that sort
of took over the entire Internet for a little while,
(03:42):
which was the Bruce Jenner interview with Diane Sawyer. Seventeen
million people tuned in to watch that, and Jenner's own
personal docuseries is coming to the E Network in July
of Yeah, and then you have Scott Turner, who also
briefly took over the Internet with news Um when he
(04:04):
became daytime TVs first openly transactor and playing a trans
character notably as well on The Bold and the Beautiful,
And then you also have projects like Becoming Us, which
is in the pipeline for ABC Family, which is focusing
on a fictional team dealing with a parents transition, which
sounds kind of like Transparent on Amazon from maybe one
(04:28):
of the kids perspectives. But as we're going to talk
about with her Keel more in depth today, while it's
incredible to see the pace of how this transvisibility has
really permeated pop culture, you know, into mainstream Middle America,
(04:49):
there's still a long way to go. And we just
want to briefly talk about this two thousand and twelve
study that GLAD conducted looking at the representation and of
transgender characters in TV and film. And Nick Adams, who's
the director of the trans Media Program at GLAD, said,
there's a perception that there's been an explosion of transgender
(05:12):
characters on TV, but when you look at the numbers,
that's not true. And he was telling that to Variety magazine. Yeah,
and Adams goes on to talk about how, according to
the GLAD survey, only one show on broadcast TV that's
not Netflix, that's not Amazon, that's broadcast TV currently features
a trans regular and that's The Bowl and the Beautiful,
(05:34):
And not a single studio movie last year had a
prominent trans character. Yeah, And and digging a little deeper
into that study, which analyzed film and television over the
last ten years, the survey found that more than half
of trans characters depicted on TV were portrayed in a
negative light. And we're problematic in various kinds of ways. So,
(05:59):
for instance, fort pent of the time you saw a
trans character on television in the past ten years, they
were cast in a victim kind of role. At least
twenty one percent of the time they were cast as
killers or villains. And and the victim and the killer
stereotypes were things that we touched on too in our
last episode, because these are some of the common tropes
(06:21):
that trans characters tend to be tossed into. Yeah, And actually,
the most common profession that we saw trans characters in
was that of sex workers. Of those character depictions were
working as sex workers. And of course, there were plenty
of storylines at least sixty one percent of the catalog
(06:43):
episodes that included ant trancelors, language and dialogue in the episode. Now,
I would be curious to see what would happen if
they adjusted their data set to include fourteen and fifteen,
because I have a feeling that the numbers would change
in a positive way. But still, as we're going to
(07:04):
talk to Riquel about nonetheless, even where we are right
now today in mid again, more progress needs to be
made because there's still in all of the media coverage
about it. In the way even that networks talk about
these kinds of characters or these entire kinds of shows
(07:26):
like ABC Families Becoming Us, there's this novelty factor attached
to it of like, oh, well, we're going to be
a little bit new and different and show this storyline
that you've never really seen before, which kind of I
don't know, it still is other ing in a way, right, Yeah,
it's still can be mothering, And I mean that raises
(07:47):
the question of, you know, are we in a very
hopeful manner working toward really wonderful trans visibility and trans representation,
or are we eventually be on that working toward Well, yeah,
there's just a trans character on that show. Yeah, they're
I mean, they're just that's just x y Z character
Like cool. There's no need need to call it out necessarily.
(08:08):
It's just known and accepted kind of like, oh well,
if there's a lesbian on the cast, like, oh well, yeah,
that's just a lesbian character. That's just Stacy, right. And
so it will be interesting to watch as we go
through through the years, how how quickly, because it does
seem like things have accelerated in the past couple of years,
like you said, and so it will be interesting to
(08:29):
see how quickly we get to a point where it's like, oh, yeah,
that's just that's just that character. Yeah, because I think
the litmus test is really going to be, like you said,
when we end up with these shows and these characters
where their biological sex that they were born with, that
their physical anatomy, that their transition isn't constantly the focus
(08:54):
of every single thing that they that their gender identity
isn't seen as a primary conflict in the show. So
let's get back to our conversation with Raquel, because she
has lots of helpful insights on all of this to offer.
I want to now talk about the TV show Transparent.
(09:17):
I mean, it's been a huge hit. It's made all
of these waves in the media, But a lot of
people have raised the issue online, especially that uh, it
might be problematic for sis actors to be cast in
trans roles. Do you think that this is a problem
or just do you think it depends on the actor
who's in the role. Like everything else, I think it's complex. Um.
(09:45):
I would definitely say that I personally would love to
see more transactors fulfilling role the trans characters, just because
I'm all about authentic portrayals it and it's just as
when people have issues with white people playing characters of
(10:08):
a different race. That's kind of where I stand. But
then I also know that the other side of the
argument is, well, Neil Patrick Harris plays straight character, so
why can't he play a woman? And the thing is
is that there's so much of this fast nation on
the trans experience as what you were born as, right that,
(10:30):
And that's what it is is people want to define
people based on their birth sex and not define them
based on what they tell you they identify as what
they actually live as. Um. And that's the problem that
I have, right, is that I don't think that says
(10:50):
people have as much of a say and and what
would be a healthy portrayal of a trans character because
you're not transudn't or it's very different, And I get
with Transparent, the the main argument for having Jeffrey Tambor
(11:11):
in this position is that they're showing a person pre
transition and then actually during a huge bulk of their
transition period. So I get the point that people are
trying to make with that, but I think it's very
harmful when we say that men can play women and
(11:32):
men can play trans women, because it just plays into
that whole man and addressed trope, and people don't want
to critically consider why it's okay for a trans woman
to just be a woman and not be defined by
all of this assumed history of where she comes from
and of what she looked like and of what surgery
(11:54):
she may have had or have not had. Yeah, I
mean when it comes to Jeffrey Tambor, she too. He
at least has been far more widely praised for not
only his portrayal but also in his um like during
Awards season with his acceptance speeches of acknowledging the trans community,
(12:15):
and I think he has at least shown more self
awareness in terms of this cis trans um like issue
that a lot of people raised compared to Jared Letto.
We had to mention Jared Letto, who alienated trans people
and a lot of SIS people too. Frankly um in
his role in Dallas Buyers Club, which some people said
(12:37):
where it was like far too trophy, but it was
more so his apparent trans ignorance during Awards season, like
when he won the Golden Globe, when he won his Oscar,
there was like no mention whatsoever, and even at one
point him just joking about having to get a body wax.
So I guess at least, at least with Jeffrey Tambor,
(12:58):
it's better than Jared Letto, although that is a horrible
standard that Jared better than Jared Letto. You should not
be the standard, obviously, But I wonder too how much
of a difference it would make if we had a
trans person who's behind the camera. I mean, it's something
we've talked about in terms of portrayals of of women
in film, where a lot of times, if you have
(13:21):
men writing all the roles, like, the women aren't always
portrayed so authentically so, and I think this is something
that Janet Mak has brought up before as well, it's like, well,
if we were making and directing these roles, obviously we
would be casting them differently too. Definitely, definitely, I think
there needs to be a whole entire uprooting of how
(13:44):
we've been targeting these storylines, right. I think we need
trans people in front and behind the camera. I think
we need trans people in the riding room. And I
will say, at least on transparents and Jill following the creator,
she did hire a trans writer for the next season,
so there will be a trans writer, and at least,
(14:07):
to be fair, she does have a lot of trans
characters and ensemble roles in the show, so she's really
trying to make up for the fact that the main
character is portrayed by Asi Man and and I wholeheartedly
give her a random applause for that, because that's that's
really awesome that at least when she's getting these critiques,
(14:29):
she's using them to try and make this a better
experience and a better portrayal. The only thing I will
say is that at the end of the day, this
is still a transnarrative portrayed through aist gender lens, right,
she is still even if it's coming from a place
(14:50):
of authenticity. On the end of having a parent who
has trans I still would rather hear it from her
are now mother's perspective, right, I would rather hear it
from the source instead of filtered through assist gender lens
(15:12):
and the other thing that she was. I also, just
to put this in context, A lot of times I
speak about race because I think people kind of get
that a little bit more, and I liken it to
how we're targeting transgender roles. But I liken it to
the Help. Right, there was a lot of critique on
(15:33):
having a white woman tell the story about black women
in the sixties. Right. There's a problem with that, right,
when narratives are co opted when the source isn't really
present at any step of the way. Well, and in
(15:55):
the case of The Help Too, or you have the
white narrator also playing the part of a white savior,
which only complicates matters right. Well, So it seems like
going back into TV history, the very limited TV history
that we have in recent years of trans characters on TV,
it seems like we're way more likely to see trans
(16:17):
women than we are trans men. Like going back to
Candice Cane being on a couple of different TV shows
and Rebecca remain playing a trans woman on Ugly Betty. Um,
why why, what's up with with the lack of trans
men on TV? It's complex that the title is episode Well,
(16:39):
I definitely think we have to consider that. A lot
of times it goes back to what's happening behind the scenes.
A lot of the media were producing. It's still being
created for the male lens, right, for the male gaze.
And when you think about women feminine and in womanhood,
(17:01):
you think about how sexualized it is. And so trans
women for a long time have really been relegated to pornography,
have been relegated to sex work because they were locked
out of different positions. Only now are we seeing trans
women who are creating tech companies and winning awards for
(17:22):
roles that aren't porn related. Let's be real about it.
So I think a lot of it has to do
with how sexualized trans women are, um and how when
we think about trans men within society, a lot of
times we're seeing people considering them trying to take on
(17:43):
that mail privilege, right, And that's not what it's about.
This is just someone who's trying to live their life
as authentically as anybody else. It's not about trying to
take on mail privilege, it's not about trying to take
up space as a man. The thing is is that
that isn't seen as being palatable to the male gaze, right,
(18:04):
That's not seen as as someone trying to be consumed, right.
But whereas with trans women, we automatically are seen as
trying to be consumed, trying to be seen as sexually
viable options for sis gender straight men, and that's not
the case. Well, and they're also seems to be this
(18:27):
persistent fascination, even going back to the days where the
closest you got to a transport trail was like a
cross dressing punch line, there seems to be this fascination
with the idea that a you know, a biological male
at some point would want to give all that up
(18:50):
in terms of privilege and like take on a female identity.
That seems so too, just in the way that like
you were talking about in terms of the focus on
how SI actors playing trans roles constantly puts the focus
back on well, what was your you know, you're assigned
(19:11):
sex at birth, Like it always takes it back to that.
There seems to be this thing particularly in terms of
trans women, of this like mind blowing idea that that
could ever cross someone's mind to want to be a woman, Right,
I definitely think a lot of it has to do
(19:31):
with this very fragile, constructive masculinity that we have within
our society. Right, trans women are seen as a threat.
It's seen as if you're going to transition into a woman, well,
what does that mean for me? Does that mean that
my identity is not as rigid? And maybe I'm not,
but I am, so you're wrong and I have to
(19:54):
completely ex your narrative out of the conversation, right, Well,
and then too on top of that, and we see this,
um we've seen this in film and also sometimes um
in more problematic TV representations as well, of the whole
deception element because talking about that like fragile masculinity and
heteronormativity to throw out all of the words, Um, there's
(20:18):
that panic of well, wait a second. If I'm a
straight guy and I'm attracted to you and you're a
trans woman, well does that make me a gay? World
comes crushing down? You know? There there is that it
seems like there's that fear in the background of like
what but what what does that mean about it's so
self focused, Like, but what is your identity mean about
(20:39):
my identity? Right? And and that's really how it is
with every marginalized group. Right. If women want to be
breadwinners and and have jobs and do all of these
things early on and even still now, men we're like, well,
what does that mean for me? Does that mean I'm
not as strong? Does that mean I'm not as intellectual?
(21:02):
Does that mean I'm not as amazing as I thought
I was? So I think that's very true, and and
it is important for us to also discuss the homophobia. Right.
It's like, even if you were gay, dude, like, it's fine,
But we see straight men having to constantly prove that
(21:27):
they are the stereotypical definition of masculine, that they fit
into the right box. So we see straight men having
to constantly prove their identity to us. So the interesting
thing is that none of us are really that different
after all. Right, We're all having to assert this box
(21:49):
to the general public of who we are. And the
interesting thing to me is that people think that trans
people are so fringe, are so different, But we're just
out here trying to survive and and grow and build
our dreams and aspirations like anybody else, right, We're not
trying to threaten anyone's identity. We're not out here trying
(22:13):
to make anyone feel necessarily uncomfortable. We're just living. And
I do think though it's notable that that fear of
deception does not seem to exist at all among the
CIS straight female community in terms of like, there's not
(22:35):
this like, am I going to be attracted to a
transman at some point in my life? And then will
my world come crumbling down? I just and I'm not
entirely I mean, obviously it relates back to what we're
talking about in terms of masculinity constructs. But um, and
I don't have any like deep insight into why why
(22:56):
that is Maybe because there is more of this general
except been some female sexuality is just being more fluid,
you know, we're more we're into bonding, we're into emotions.
Were not maybe so um so insecure in that I'm
asking stating that as a question up talk. Well, I mean,
there's there's less of a cultural idea of like a
(23:18):
woman having to prove her femininity by dating a like
super masculine person. You know, it's it's way more of
a cultural thing that like the man, like you were saying, Raquel,
like the man has to prove that he's super masculine,
he's got to date like somebody super feminine. Um. I
apologize for my from my fake male voice. I know
(23:40):
men don't talk like this, Um, not all men, but yeah,
I just wonder if like, culturally women kind of get
off the hook that way in terms of like it's
not a it's not a thing as much really in
our cultural conversation about a woman who like assist woman
falling in love with a trans man, it doesn't seem like, oh, well,
(24:02):
but I have to prove that I'm super feminine. Well,
because it doesn't take a particular kind of presentation for
a woman to be objectified. Like that's just how it is.
Hence us doing this podcast and talking about it all
the time. Because that is if I can run down
the road as a do when I go jogging, and
(24:23):
be disgusting and red faced and sweaty and in old
running clothes and still have you know, sexual comments yelled
my way hello that that's very true. And you'll find
if you look around there are so many stories about
(24:45):
trans men and women dating and and how amazing that is.
But you rarely find as many trans women and sith
men about their relationships. There's shame around, um, a man
(25:08):
being attracted to a trans woman, But yet we see
so many more trans women on TV and in movies,
and yet their romantic plot lines are often problematized because
of being trans. That was something we read a whole
paper about this, where romance is always the conflict because
(25:29):
of exactly what you're talking about, right, Definitely, I think
it's interesting that we've seen a lot of trans women
characters at least in these main roles, but still their
validation and their identity is so contingent on the men
(25:49):
in their lives. Right, we will still see the main
character of a trans woman put down and really dismissed
as an actual viable romantic or sexual option just because
of our trans status. So you're perfectly right that a
(26:10):
lot of times the romance is something that's not seen
as a possibility. Well, and when it comes to attraction
in general too, it seems like pop culturally all of
the a lot of these representations also are still heteronormative,
to the point of assuming that the trans women are
(26:35):
exclusively attracted to men too. I mean, there's so many
different layers to it. There's so much conflating too of
gender identity and sexual orientation. Like clearly, we even though
we were seeing more and more of these characters and
having trans icons like Liverne Cox, you know, really becoming
household names, we still have a lot to learn, right,
(26:59):
and that's why I think the Orange and the New
Black narrative is very important. At least early on, we
see lavarn Cox of character Sophia Barthett and her wife
making it right at least trying to make this happen.
But again, her wife is not a lesbian and so
(27:22):
that did problem with hide their storyline. But at the
very least we see her still loving the person that
Sophia is. Yeah, but then you also see Sophia continue
on in the show as a regular human character who
has problems and joys and sadness just like all of
the other characters on the show. Her story isn't built
(27:45):
solely upon that relationship with her wife. Um, she's more
multifaceted than that, which I think is something something we're
celebrating that it doesn't just stop with like, oh, well,
you know, she transitioned and the relationship broke up, and
let's judge her because of that. There was there's so
much more to her character, which is good to see.
(28:08):
And so then that leads me to the question of
what you think about this whole Laverne Cox effect, especially
across sort of across media in general, and why you
think that she has had such a bigger cultural influence
than someone like Candice Kane, who was sort of a
pioneer in TV. I think Laverne Cox is very unique
(28:29):
because as soon as she hit the scene, she made
a point to talk about trans issues right, talking about
issues that are real, talking about people like Seizing McDonald,
the trans woman from Minneapolis who she killed her attacker
(28:50):
and self defense because he was throwing racist and transphobic
flars at her and her friends and attacking them. You
see her talking about the trans woman Ellen Nettles, who
was killed by an attacker and a hate crime right
outside of a police station and no one really did
anything about it. So Laverne Cox deserves all of the
(29:14):
credit that she gets because she has taken her platform
and use it for goodwill towards all trans people. She
literally talks about the hard hitting issues that effect that
she talks about disenfranchisement, she talks about lack of adequate
housing and health qu care and discrimination in terms of
(29:36):
trying to find housing. So she's hitting all of these
marks and that is why she's become such a cultural figure. Well.
Speaking of Levern Cox to one of her projects outside
of Oranges in New Black is a documentary on trans
teens that she oversaw for MTV, and that made me
(29:57):
think about perhaps differences in more reality types of programming
versus scripted And I was wondering if you've seen any
kinds of any ways in which maybe in reality on
reality TV, are trans characters allowed to be more themselves?
Are they still subject to a lot of these tropes
(30:20):
that scripted television is only finally now slowly breaking out of.
I definitely think with Reality TV it is breaking away
from these scripts that are often written by people who
don't really know about the trans experience, may not even
actually know a trans person, and probably won't even cast
(30:40):
the trans person, so let's not even go there. But
I definitely think Reality TV, at least on the documentary front,
is helping us see literally realistic portrays portrayals of trans
people and the T Word, which is the documentary that
she did. I mean, it's phenomenal and it does let
(31:03):
people know that trans people come in all ages, right,
you know, trans people aren't necessarily just transitioning at sixty
like Bruce Jenner. Trans people, our teams, trans people are
kids like Jazz Jennings, the fourteen year old who's about
to have her own reality show AND's TLC. I mean,
(31:25):
we're everywhere, and it's great to see that being acknowledged.
And I also want to say, I think the other
interesting thing about Laverne Cox is that she does not
shy away from talking about trans issues. I think, and
don't quote me on this, I'm not completely sure, but
I think with people like Candice Cane and trans women
(31:47):
before her, who were pioneers, a lot of it was
about passing and not letting on so much that you
were trans right, and just trying to be seen as
a normal person. And then sis gender was considered normal, right.
We didn't even have the term such gender because it
(32:08):
was like normal people and trans people. But now people
like Laverne Cox, people like Janet Mock are like, just
as I am a black person, just as I am
a woman, I am a transgender woman. It is just
one other descriptor of me as anything else. I will
educate you as much as I can, but it is
(32:30):
not not all that there is to me. Yeah, it's
it's wanting to be seen for who you are, not
wanting people to stop at their own preconceived notions of
what you're supposed to be. And that's I mean, that's
true of anybody though. You just want to be seen
for who you are. But then, I mean, speaking more
on the reality show front, and specifically about Bruce Jenner,
(32:50):
what was your take on on the interview. I mean,
social media like exploded. Social media was all over that story.
I am kind of shocked, right that so many people
are or at least had been, talking about the Bridge
Ginner interview, and so many people watched it. I mean,
(33:11):
it was one of the highest rated ABC specials in
a long time. And it's great, right because I think
that Bridie Genner was very down to earth with his approach.
And I'm using him because he said that that was
okay at least at this point in the interview. But
(33:32):
I saw him using a realistic approach. I saw him
making sure to not make a spectacle of his situation.
A lot of it was, and this is problematic on
one hand, but necessary. It was abating the fears that
people had, right, It was abating the fact that people
(33:53):
see being trans as this crazy rebellious thing to do
within our scie. But it's not. It's just a fact
of life for some people. And I thought it was
also great that he at least had these little segments
of the interview that did talk about other trans people,
that did talk about marginalization for other trans people who
(34:16):
aren't wealthy and well to do and aren't cultural figures
like he is. Right, he on some level acknowledge that
he had a privilege to even have this platform to
use his story to educate people in too inspire other people.
The only thing is that I hope we will see
(34:39):
more trans people being able to tell their stories in
that way and be able to lift that veil a
little bit more, because again, that is a singular story,
that is one person story, one trans person story. That
is not how it is for everyone who is trans.
And I hope most of the people understood that. Well,
(35:03):
do you think that this is positioning him as a
trans icon? I think yes, unfortunately, and I think a
lot of times the larger society gets to choose who
(35:24):
the icons for the marginalians groups are, right, because you
see that with people immortalizing m Okay. Yes, m Okay
was a brilliant guy for the black community, but he
was not the only guy. You know, you never hear
people talk about people like Malcolm G's as much as
they talk about people like m Okay. You never hear
(35:45):
them talking about Angela Davis as much as they talk
about m Okay. And and so I wonder if people
will talk about Bruce Jenner in the future more than
they talk about someone like Laverne Cox, someone like Janet
ma Uck. And it's almost unfair on two hands because
it completely outshines all of the work that people like
(36:10):
laver And Cox and Janet Mock have been doing since
the beginning of their media careers. And it's unfair to
Bruce Jenner to put all of this weight on his
shoulder when he's really just starting his transition. Right. The
expectation to be a spokesperson and an educator just because
(36:30):
you fit within an identity is unfair, And I think
a lot of times trans people have been forced to
educate people around them when it's like, look, you have
Google now, like you can look up some of this
one on one stuff and not ask me all of
these questions. Well yeah, I mean I think you see
(36:51):
that in interviews both with Janet Mock and Laver and Cox,
who are like, listen, you know if you want to
talk about things like the actual ins and out of
the transition and the surgery, like, let's well, we can
talk offline. You can again use the Google. But it's
like there's a bigger story at hand than just like
the actual physical stuff. Well and imagine you and I
(37:15):
sitting here Caroline too, sis gender straight women, Like how
bananas it seems to have if we were to have
to explain our bodies, what was under our clothes and
what is in our minds and what are like sexual
orientation was every few days constantly just be like no, no,
(37:36):
no no. So here's the breakdown. This is me Like,
we get to just live our lives. We don't have
to like go through all of those things. No one,
no one is waiting for us to be the spokesperson
a sist people because that doesn't you know, we we
just accepted as as it is. Yeah, well, moving forward raquel,
(37:59):
pulling it back to trans representations on TV. Clearly we've
made progress, but clearly there's still lots of progress that
can be made. So I'm just wondering near ideal night,
you're sitting down, you're relaxing, you tear on the TV.
What kinds of trans characters would you like to see
(38:21):
on TV? What kinds of roles would you love to
see portrayed by transactors. I guess I'm more concerned right now,
at least seeing trans people period out in the world
in real life, in more positions, right, having more access,
having to not worry about basic things like which bathroom
(38:45):
to use and whether they will be allowed to use
the restroom comfortably. I would like to see trans people
not worrying about finding a safe school that they can
attend and being validated in their idea and he's and
not have to worry about that. I want to see
trans people being able to be lawyers and politicians and
(39:08):
doctors without all of this baggage and where they came from,
and that mirrors what I would like to see on television, right.
I would love to see a trans Alle mcbell as
just the Ally mcbeill character. And not have to worry
as much about where she came from and how she
(39:28):
knew she was trans and all of these one on
one questions. I want to get beyond the basics, get
literally get beyond the label of transgender, and talk about
what it just means to just exists in this world. Right,
It's interesting to me that everything has to be literally
(39:54):
black and white, it has to be sis and trans.
Why can't we just have whole listing narratives to begin with.
Why can't we have the Office with a main transgender
character and not be a huge deal. Why can't we
have a show like Girls have a trans woman in
a main role, or I mean, we're still fighting to
(40:18):
have racial representations and main roles. It just boggles my
mind that people I can't think beyond having an all
black cast or an all white cast, or in all
of this cast just mix it up people, well, especially
since you know there's the argument of like, well I
just you know, I just write what I know, and oh,
(40:40):
I was I only have white people or or six
women in my group of friends, so that's all I'm
going to write about. And it's like, well, you do
realize that this is television which is a made up land,
and you can have any type of character that you
have choose to include. And so it's like, come on, like,
let's get on the diversity bandwagon here and and recognize
that it's not only okay, but but wonderful and ultimately
(41:03):
super beneficial to show different types of stories. Right. And
it's funny, it's like you're doing more work than you
have to write because you have to make your storylines
that much more off the beaten path and that much
more over the top because you don't have basic diverse representation. Right,
(41:29):
you could easily make a character who doesn't look like
you interact with a character who might look like you,
and that's your drama. Right. They are people, that is
That is the beauty of art. This is an art, right,
you know, I think beyond all of this. I know
(41:49):
you encounter people of color. I know you encounter trans people,
especially in the positions that these people are creating media.
You encounter so many types of people that the regular
people like me don't encounter. You probably encounter a transperson
before I encountered a transfer THEE And I do think
(42:12):
that this kind of diversity and showing these kinds of
holistic stories as you talk about, matters so much more
on TV than say, compared to film, because that is
what is in everyone's homes and those are the stories
that we gather around every night. And you know, film
(42:36):
is important too, Obviously we've talked about representation in film before,
but film takes so much more time and money to
produce and it's not as accessible for everybody. But I feel, like,
you know, Laverne Cox and Orange Is a New Black
had such a moment because everyone I knew was watching
it and couldn't stop watching it, and they were tweeting
(42:57):
about and posting about it. If you weren't up to speed,
it was all spoiler alerts and me like was social
life for a while. So TV is such such such
a powerful medium, and that drives on the point even
more to not be dismissive if you're a creator, to
just say, will just read and want to know doing
(43:18):
my best? No, you're not right. I mean if people
are out here and making sci fi films and sci
fi shows and and we've got X Men, mutants and
and superheroes and all of these different characters and Game
of Thrones, right, and Game of Thrones, Like why can't
(43:38):
we just I'm just asking for an office trans person
to just walk in and share their story and that
be it. I'm not asking for the world, and I'm
not apt, and I'm not necessarily asking you to definitely
include a trans person, right, but when you do include it,
(43:59):
when you do include a trans person, at least make
it real. At least make it a real role, a
real characterization. Well, speaking of that, then, Riquel, what would
you recommend to our listeners as a show or a
specific character or a film that is a good example
(44:24):
of exactly what you're talking about, so that we can
help educate our listeners even more as well. Well, I
would definitely say, first of all, if you have not
seen Orange as the New Black, come out from under
that rock and get into it. Laverne Cox knocks it
out of the ballpark. It's great. Transparent is fine. Um,
(44:47):
I definitely think that it is a fairly good representation,
not going into the fact that the sissman is playing
a trans woman. And then I actually would recommend this
movie called Gunhill Road. It starred a trans woman named
(45:08):
Harmony Santana, young trans Latina actress. It was a very good,
down to earth portrayal, and she was low income, but
she wasn't a tragic character. So that was a very
good movie. And I would recommend the The T Word
documentary that Laverne Cox said a lot of Laverne Cox
(45:30):
on this list. Clearly she's awesome, but it was it
was very great. It it really showed what it's like
to be a transcene and and I would just say
stay tuned. It seems like there there are a lot
of good transnarratives that are coming out in the media soon.
There's all that Jazz featuring Jazz Jennings, the fourteen year
old girl who actually is a spokesperson for I think
(45:53):
It's Clean and Clear Now, and she was in this
huge media campaign for them, but that would be coming
out the summer. A lot of other things will be
coming out this summer, so just stay tuned. Awesome, Well,
thanks so much for talking to us, Riquel. So, uh,
you know, we did mention a couple of times that
you're you're you're all over the internet, So could you
(46:14):
tell our listeners where they can find out more about
your writing and what you're up to. Sure, So I
have a blog called Consciousness Raising Dot Tumbler dot com.
I post all of my writings there. I've been writing
on medium dot com also and the Huffington Posts. I
have a blog on there, so there are a couple
(46:34):
of different things they are. And I also started a
YouTube channel not so long ago called Beyond the Label,
and I talk a lot about trans issues, um, but
I'm also talking about intersectional feminist issues too and race
and all that good stuff, so you can check that
out as well well. Raquel, thank you so much for
(46:55):
coming on the show and talking to us and hang
out with us. And just ng Rad, thank you for
having me. It's been fun. So now once again we
want to hear from you on this topic of trans
representations on TV. And I know that we have transgender
men and women in our audience, and we especially would
(47:16):
love to hear from you and get your first person
opinion on all of this stuff that's happening on the
big screen and the small screen. And we want to
know what kinds of characters that you're especially drawn to
or characters that you would prefer to never ever see again.
Let us know. Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot
(47:36):
com is our email address. You can also tweet us
at mom Stuff Podcasts or messages on Facebook, and we've
got a couple of messages to share with you right now. Okay, Well,
I have a letter here from Jessica about the interview
we did with Nina McLaughlin, author of Hammerhead and Carpenter Extraordinaire,
(47:58):
and Jessica writes, it was so much fun to hear
a positive, insightful woman talking about her experience. I heartily
agree with her about the unparalleled satisfaction attained by building
something lasting. I grew up working in a construction company
and dancing classical ballet. These two disparate passions have given
my life a highly gendered and deeply rewarding contrast. In college,
(48:22):
I even did a performance art piece about the tension
this has created in my concept of femaleness. After college,
I ran my own construction company and later my own
ballet school. I now work in sales for an international
adhesives and building materials manufacturing company. Being in the trades
in many different positions has led me to conceal my
gender at times for various reasons. As a boss, I
(48:45):
hired a gender nonconforming person as a helper, as well
as a CIS gendered person, which is made for a
wonderfully diverse crew. I have done everything from excavation to roofing,
masonry and tile, electrical plumbing, sheet rock and taping, siding,
framing and struck shoral renovation, mostly because I enjoyed working
with my father more than my brothers did, and chose
(49:05):
to go to work with him year after year. Eventually
he had me work as a sort of foreman, overseeing
projects and running crews, managing subs when he couldn't be there.
I later learned about landscaping and agriculture, doing both for
work because I enjoy working with my hands, working hard,
and making things beautiful. I now use both my undergrad
degree in international comparative studies and my experience in construction
(49:27):
in my current job as an architectural sales rep. Although
I missed the deep satisfaction and accomplishment, not to mention
physical exhaustion construction always gave me. And She goes on
to say that she agrees with Nina, and she loves
the Japanese pulsaw too. But one of the big problems
for women entering the field is the way the tools
are designed. Women's hands being smaller than men's, making most
(49:48):
power tools very difficult to use, but your forearms and
hands gained strength as you struggle, and if you persevere,
you will succeed. No shame in buying the fourteen point
four vault drill instead of the ubiquitous eighteen volt. If
you're swinging that thing over your head and hanging up
a stud wall ten hours a day, it's got to
be comfortable. She says. I could go on and on,
(50:09):
but you've made me so happy with your work. I'm
a longtime listener and now my nine year old daughter
is a fan too, So thank you so much, Jessica. Well,
I've got a letter here from Matt also about our
episode with Carpenter plus writer Nina McLaughlin, and he writes,
thanks for the wonderful podcast. I've had my eyes open
to so much. I'd never have considered it all before
(50:32):
I started listening. I was delighted to hear your last
episode about would Work. Nina's story sounds very familiar. I too,
found out I love would work more than my web
development day job after going on a brief training course
at a local castle. And yes I did not misspeak,
he said a local castle. Matt. I have a million
follow up questions for you now anyway, just to shout
(50:56):
out if any listeners are thinking about trying this, I
would highly recommend and Paul Sellers online video tutorials. He
is a true gentleman and highly skilled. He's dedicating his
later life to training people in hand tool would work
and strongly encourages ladies and children to the craft. He's
recently found the internet can help him in this endeavor,
and perhaps your listeners would like to try some of
(51:18):
the free videos he supplies or read his extensive blog
on the topic of woodwork. So Matt says you can
go to Paul Sellers dot com for his blog or
Woodworking Masterclasses dot com for his online classes. Keep up
the great work. I look forward to being educated through
many more episodes. Well, thanks Matt for the recommendations, and
(51:39):
thanks to everyone who's written in to us Mom stuff
at house. Stuff works dot Com is our email address
and for links to all of our social media as
well as all of our blogs, videos and podcasts, including
this one. With links so you can follow Raquel head
on over to stuff Mom Never Told You dot com.
(52:00):
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Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.