September 22, 2017 • 44 mins
What happens when we strive for social media perfection in lieu of IRL connection? E&B unpack the problems with the quest for online "effortless chic" and how to flip the script.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Emily, and and you're listening to stuff
mom never told you. And today I'm pretty excited to
tackle a topic that definitely has showed up in my life,
and I bet it has showed up in a lot
(00:26):
of y'all's lives as well. And that is the quest
for social media perfection. Emily, this is something you can
really do. Absolutely. I think there is so much pressure
on all of us, but especially women, for some reason,
to live what I call a Pinterest perfect life, right,
this idea that everything has to look like your life
(00:49):
is beautiful. You have to showcase your perfect career, your
perfect little family, your perfect little life, your perfect little house,
your latte. And I fall into that trap all the time.
Instagram pres is pretty, your life looks amazing. Your life
is amazing, but it looks looks amazing. It definitely looks
more amazing than it actually is. But it's because it's
a highlight reel. That's exactly it. I think back to
(01:11):
when I was living in New York City having probably
the worst, most oppressing time of my life. All my
friends they said things like, we can't believe you were
so unhappy. Your life looked so exciting on Instagram because
you were always seeing celebrities and going at and blah
blah blah. And I said, yeah, I think I was
trying to curate a very happy and exciting life to
make up for the fact that my life actually wasn't
(01:32):
very happy or exciting. It was actually very depressing and sad.
And so the research is clear that this is something
that young people, particularly women, are really struggling with. Many
young people are struggling with mental health issues, depression, anxiety,
but really projecting this very perfect life. And one of
the things that makes that so interesting is that they
(01:52):
really feel to need to do that because they think
all their other friends are living perfect lives, and so
it becomes an echo chamber where everyone seems to be
living their best life, having the most delicious avocado toad,
drinking the coolest latte, having the most amazing yoga classes,
you know, having the most charming pets, But actually, no
(02:15):
one's life is amazing all the time. I know, it's
this weird economy because there's the alternative, which is open
moaning on social media. And I'm not saying that there
is some time in a place for venting, but there's
you know, what are you supposed to do. Are you
supposed to take out your phone and take a selfie
when you're having a depressive episode and a panic attack
(02:36):
or you're feeling fat and you're like, today is not
a day when I can wear those genes that I
wish I wanted, that I had planned to wear today.
You know, it's just like this idea that, of course
we know we're all curating our lives. The warped problem
emerges when we forget that everyone else is curating their
(02:57):
life as well. Exactly that sob to sleep. For as
long as people have been communicating with each other, you know,
sending car of your pigeons, or smoke signals or letters
via Pony Express of any of that, people have been
curating the highlights of their of their life. That's totally
normal and completely understandable. But what's different about social media
is the extent to which we consume the curated lives
(03:19):
of others. So it's just like what you're saying, Yeah,
it's like everything that's wrong with media targeting girls, like
the proliferation of air brushing, for instance, that sets an
impossibly high standard for what your body is supposed to
look like, is now peer to peer, you know what
I mean, Like everything that is warped and makes you
feel awful about yourself when flipping through a fashion magazine
(03:40):
is now so pervasive because what has really been designed
to keep us all in touch with one another has
resulted in us comparing ourselves to one another. And that's
exactly when you fall into a lot of the pitfalls
that we're going to talk about today. Um So, I
just wanted to really highlight this one's suddy. A recent
(04:00):
survey conducted by the Girl Scouts found that nearly seventy
of girls agreed that other girls try to make themselves
look quote cooler than they are on social networking site.
That's the mean thing to say. I want to say,
even a question is a little the phrasing, the phrasing,
it's a little mean. It just sounds like a seventh
grade insult. Emily, you think you're so much cooler than
(04:23):
you are, and you're like, I know you're right, Emily,
seventy of other classmates asked so that you came off
as quote too cool for school? How do you how
do you respond to that? I'm gonna go to the
bathroom cry. That's what that was my seventh grade go
to move same um, and so what's really fascinating is
that they're really putting starting to put a name to
(04:44):
this condition. Gregory T. Eels, the director of the Gannett
Health Services at Cornell University. He calls it quote social perfection,
or the appearance of living a perfect light across various
social media platforms, which Eel says can be just as
damaging to the person seeing those kinds of images as
it is to people who see them. So really it's
about when you fall into this trap of feeling the
(05:07):
need to put out perfection and images that are perfect,
other people see them, and it becomes this vicious cycle
of everyone feeling like crap about themselves exactly. And I
love what he goes on to say about internalizing that
as reality, because that's where the problems really arise when
you think, like, for instance, if my self worth was
directly connected to my Instagram feed, I would feel the
(05:30):
need to keep up with that image in a really
compulsive way. So what he's saying is that it's just
as problematic for the poster who gains that kind of
very understandable satisfaction from peer to peer approval from their
online persona. He says, quote, it's not as if you
really think I have to be perfect. It's that I
think that you think that I have to be perfect,
(05:53):
and so I need to put that image out constantly.
I'm pretty sure that a particular Kylie Jenner talks about
this quite often on the Life of Kylie is about
I may or may not have been consuming lately, because
she talks about the difference between her own reality and
her image. And as much as we like to pretend
(06:16):
like celebrities, lives aren't quite like our own. I think
in that regard they really are. Everyone has their own
sphere of influence, and so when you feel this dissociation
between the image you've created or what other people think
of you as, and that image is something that's intimately
connected to your own sense of identity and self, that's
(06:36):
where some problems can arise. I think that's true, and
I think, again, I've definitely been guilty of getting caught
up in that. But I think what Kylie is saying
I never thought i'd use this phrase, But what I
think Kylie is saying is so thoughtful because it really
reminds us that when we're on social media platforms like Instagram.
Not only are we competing with our friends or classmates,
(06:58):
we're competing with people who have teams that are dedicated
to making their life look perfect and awesome. Right Like
Kylie has an entire team of people. She's not just
casually posting things in her bedroom the way that some
of us are. And that again adds to that filter
bubble where it's not clear where reality begins and ends,
even within ourselves. And comparing herself to someone who has
(07:21):
a whole professional team behind their online presence is not fair.
It's not fair, and it's it's it's just a big trap. Um.
Something I love that Eels says is that when he
counsels with students, they often say when they're depressed or
having a hard time, Oh, I look at so and
so's life and she's so happy, or this person's life
seems so perfect. And he says, I can point at
(07:42):
those students and think that one's gone to the hospital,
that person has an eating disorder, that student just went
on antidepressants. As a therapist, I know that nobody is
as happy or grown up as they seem on the outside. Yeah,
And this seems to be especially pervasive on college campuses,
which doesn't surprise me, given the hyper connectedness of a
(08:03):
society that's on a campus together and connected virtually. In fact,
in two thousand three, Duke produced a report describing how
female students felt pressure to be quote effortlessly perfect, being smart, accomplished, fit, beautiful,
and popular, all without visible effort. At Stanford, it's called
(08:25):
the duck syndrome because the duck appears to glide calmly
across the water well beneath the surface, it's frantically, relentlessly
paddles the things I want to unpack from that is effortless.
What the hell? When did that become part of the
thing we need to be. It's wild to me that
you are expected, if you are a young woman on
one of these campuses dealing with this kind of thing,
(08:45):
You're expected to be popular, beautiful, thin, social, all of that,
all without any artifice of trying too hard. Because I
woke up like this, of course, didn't we all exactly?
I have always failed on that front. In like my
personal life, like has always put me in the category
of nerd or overachiever, or brown noser or annoyer, an
(09:08):
intense person, and has always been clear from the very beginning,
is that effort is something that I put into everything
that I do to a to a terrible extent, you
know what I mean. Like I especially chafe at this
idea of effortless perfection because that is something I will
I have never been able to and will never be
(09:29):
able to achieve that image of not trying but just
being that cool, like Barack Obama has an effortless cool
to him, even though you know he puts in work, right,
But why is effortlessness something that we've elevated right now?
As I know you personally, I know that you're someone
who really cares about things. You want things to be good,
You want things to be the best they can be.
(09:51):
You really have high standards, not because you're a brown noser,
because you're a dorc. It's because you care about things
being good and you want things to be right, and
that takes effort. Things just don't fall into place. It
takes work and effort. And I don't know where we
got to this point where you have to be sexy, smart, effective,
blah blah blah, but you also can't show any of
(10:11):
the machinations that go into that otherwise you're intense and adore,
and you're hated like Ann Hathaway. Yeah, yes, yes, really
super identify with that. There's a really great article about
why some people don't like it Hathaway, and it comes
It comes back to the idea that people sense that
she's trying, and even though she's great, she's a great actress,
(10:33):
singer's not so t wanted. She comes off as wanting
it too much, so we don't give it to the
opposite is Jennifer Lawrence. She's the cool girl that doesn't care. Man,
she just does whatever. She flies off the handle, she
doesn't care, you know, she's just hanging. And that is
the kind of thing I distinctly remember being envious of
(10:54):
those people until I came to accept that I care
about everything, probably a little too much it, and there's
no hiding it. And one of my biggest faults is
how much I care. And I'm okay with that. I've
accepted that because Jennifer Lawrence is an impossibly high standard
for not caring and still looking amazing. Um, she definitely cares.
(11:15):
She may like we may have decided that for whatever reason,
she doesn't care and it's not trying, but that's definitely
not true. Yeah. Isn't it interesting though how people perceive
those two women very differently, basicly on effortlessness or effort alone. Yeah,
I mean this almost takes me back to our episode
around Lisa Simpson about one of the things that she
(11:35):
gets that that show gets so right is that she cares.
She tries very hard, and that's okay. It's it should
be cool to try hard. Caring about stuff is cool,
And it's not that she always succeeds, and that effort
is no less important or valued when she's succeeding or failing, which, man,
I love Lisa. I know I could talk. We always
go back to the Simpsons' is one of those constants
on the show. It's true. So bringing it back to
(11:57):
social media sites like Instagram and Facebook, it actually turns
out that it's not what sites do you use, it's
how you use them. And we're gonna tease that out
after a quick word from our sponsors and we're back.
We were just talking about social media and how it
can really get into our heads. So it turns out
(12:20):
that with sites like Facebook, a lot of it has
to do with how you're using it. According to a
study from University of Missouri. Facebook has been linked to
symptoms of depression. If the social networking site is used
to compare your life with the life of your peers.
If you're using it to just stay connected or see
your friends, or see your friends new baby, things like that,
it's fine. But if you're using it actively to compare
(12:43):
your life to the life of other people, I would say, like,
particularly people your age, that's when you really have a problem.
And I just want to acknowledge that. A hundred percent
of people listening, we're like, that's me because we've all
been there. Have you ever rage liked something? You're like,
I hate you like I have You're like you in
your perfect seeming life, you know, screw you. Here's a
(13:04):
little like button and it thumbs up to you in
your finished book manuscript or you're you know, so you're
traveling the world. You're in Alaska on some cruise, like,
I hate you, but I'm gonna hit a like button
because I don't want to hate you. I wish I
didn't hate you. This whole psychological uh management happens within
(13:24):
your own brain where you say you know something, fiery
flames up inside of you and you're like why why
am I reacting this triggered kind of way. I shouldn't
feel that way. And when you say I shouldn't have
those feelings, we suppress and we box it in and
we throw it to the forest farthest recesses of our
consciousness and pretend like it didn't happen, when in reality
(13:48):
there's something different you can do. And you know I'm
not alone in this, and I am I bridgin No,
you're not alone. I was gonna say this doesn't make
me sound like a very good person, but I'm gonna
say it anyway. Me and my friends have a running
group where when someone posts something really just like look
at my amazing vacation, will screenshot the picture and be like,
for fifty dollars, would you write no one cares at
(14:10):
a comment and you've never actually done it, but the
antie has gotten very high. For a thousand dollars if
you comment no one cares on this? That is so aggressive.
I love it. I love it. It's not aggressive that
it's happening in a private group chaw. It would be
if someone actually took it up on them. But that's
there is a part of everyone that wants to do
(14:31):
that because and here's my theory behind it is something
about that picture reminded you of something that you wish
you had more of in your life. Totally, and that
actually goes right back to the research the University of
Missouri researchers down that Facebook postings about things like expensive vacations,
new houses or cars, happy relationships, evil feelings with envy
(14:54):
amongst surveillance social media users. And so when you see
that big house, it reminds you that you live of
an a walk up, crappy apartment in Washington, DZ has
bugs if you're me or no, it's actually lovely, but
it's no, it's not a house that I own. But
or when you see you know that beautiful you know
tropical vacation, you're reminded that you don't have vacation days,
(15:16):
or that you can't take a vacation, or that you
wish you could and you can't. Exactly. There's resentment that
bubbles up. And when we give ourselves permission to really
instead of like rage quit or rage clothes the browser,
instead of suppressing that emotion and telling yourself, I shouldn't
I should feel happy for them, I shouldn't hate this person,
processing it a little bit. Maybe it's through a private
(15:38):
group chat, but thinking to yourself, what about this person's
life do I want more of? In mind? And what
can I do to make it happen. It's such a
mindful way to think about it, where you don't spin
out in your own envy and rage, but you make
a plan for you, an actionable plan for your life.
And seeing someone's new baby fills you with instant dread
(16:01):
and envy. Maybe it's because you that's something you want
in your life. Of seeing someone's finished book, manuscript or
finished marathon fills you with a weird feeling in your
gut that makes you instantly feel weird. Maybe that's something
you need to make a plan for in your life.
That's what I hadn't thought about that. That's a good idea.
It's the way to reverse engineer envy to actually point
you in the direction of what you want. So instead
(16:21):
of saying I hate that I'm envious of that person,
I'm going to run away from those negative emotions that
we shouldn't be feeling. Say, you know, without judgment, in
a mindful way, I'm feeling this feeling. Why what do
I need more of in my life? How can I
get more of that in my life? And maybe you
can't change the fact that you don't have vacation days,
(16:41):
but maybe you can start a savings fund for a
long weekend that's coming up. Maybe you can look into
booking staycation with your best day, you know what I mean? Like,
what can you proactively do? If you allow the envy
to trigger action on your part, you're gonna feel a
lot better. That's so interesting that you say that the
has I think working through instant negative gut feelings that
(17:04):
we have is so difficult, so difficult because we live
in a society that literally says you shouldn't feel that way,
So runaway. Feel ashamed that you felt envious. So now
you don't just feel sad that you don't have what
they have. You feel bad for feeling sad because we're
all supposed to be happy at the time, which is
the topic of another conversation. But we should talk about
(17:25):
like America's relationship with happiness in particular, because did you
know that we smile more than any other society of people.
I did not know that. For future discuss that. That
is a good tid. Here's something that will surprise no one,
though of all the social media sites, there is one
that researchers have found is most likely to trigger depression,
(17:47):
anxiety and loneliness, according to a UK wide study by
the Royal Society for Public Health. It's not surprising, is
it brigid that of all the platforms, it is the
one and only Instagram. It's the Graham surprising no one. Actually,
one thing I did find surprising about the study is
that the social networking platform that is most likely to
(18:07):
generate positive content creation and make people feel good is YouTube.
I found that very surprising. YouTube is a very tightnit
community of creators and they all reference each other often.
There's a lot of music happening there. I like. I
like that. I'm not surprised by that. So as you
don't read the comments if you think the very in
different about being a creator on YouTube versus anyone who
(18:30):
comments on YouTube is like likely to be a sociopath, yes,
or at least a closeted sociopath who rages against people
on YouTube comment why have it comments so bad? So bad?
If they're so toxic, don't read them? Um yeah, Instagram,
it doesn't surprise me at all. I mean, Instagram is
so full of picture perfect lives and avocado toast and
(18:52):
all of this. I actually just saw a movie about
the dark side of Instagram called Ingland Goes West. Um.
If you haven't seen it, it's it's definitely worth checking out.
Based the Aubrey Plaza is a very disturbed young woman
who gets so caught up in Instagram and having this
perfect Instagram life that she goes to a very very
dark place because she can't. She cannot detach Instagram reality
(19:13):
from reality reality. And so if it happens on Instagram,
if it's real, if someone is living the best life
on Instagram, they have the best life, and she needs
to be having that, and if she doesn't, then she
can't measure up with Without giving any spoilers away, like,
was there an overarching lesson? Uh, The overarching lesson is
that Instagram is not always what it seems, and that
(19:37):
Instagram it isn't. Yeah, it's not, it's not real. That
getting caught up in it can be really toxic. It
also has a wrinkle of the idea of people who
make money from perfect instagrams, and so so often when
you see a beautiful post it's sponsored or you know,
spawn con or whatever. That that is its own kind
of weird thing that we don't really that our brains
(19:58):
don't really allow us to fully acknowledge. Yeah, that's interesting.
You have to be careful with your media diet, right,
You have to be careful about what you're feeding your
brain and your eyes in terms of images, and when
we consume what we believe is a loosely filtered reality,
we can forget that it's not that loosely filtered. It's
(20:21):
quite filtered. It's quite censored, improved, highlighted. It really isn't
real life. But we forget that because it seems like
such a democratic, small d democratic medium, right right, it
seems so accessible, so that everybody must be having the
same kind of experience with the Graham that you are,
whatever that might mean. Yeah, I mean I've definitely tried
(20:43):
to be a little bit better about how I consume
Instagram because I'm super prone to insta jealousy and thinking
that people's curated lives or their real lives and sort
of not taking a step back and saying this is
super filtered, super curated obviously, because it's it's I think
he said this earlier. It is like looking through a
magazine but the magazine is your friends, and that makes
(21:04):
it so much worse, and it's so much easier to
compare your shortcomings with the shortcomings of your friends when
they look so perfect. Can I ask you about that? Yeah? So,
which images, if you could categorize them, do you feel
are the most likely to trigger that kind of envy
when you're pressing if you're willing. Um one is vacation photos.
(21:25):
And knew you were going to say that I am
not someone who takes a ton of vacation. Um. I
actually don't know when my last vacation was. I mean,
I can't remember it, So there we go. Um. I
took a really kind of life changing trip to Australia,
I think that I think you've mentioned on the show,
which to me felt like a vacation. But even that
was a working trip that was not a vacation. But
(21:46):
in my mind it's like I've never been like on
an Australian beach before, Like this is amazing, And you know,
I see my I have friends that really prioritize that
aspect of like their lives, making time for travel and
making time off and it's something that I've struggled with forever.
And seeing people who live I mean that I wouldn't
say they're busier than me or less busy than me.
(22:07):
We were, we probably are comparable in what our lives
look like in terms of work and responsibilities. And I
just can't help but look at them and I'm like,
how did you manage this? Like? How did you do
do a weekend trip to Cuba? Like what is like?
It's one of those things I've never been able to
make fit into my life. And when I see other
people seemingly make it fit so easily and so well,
(22:28):
I instantly feel like a pang in my stomach. I
had a sneaking suspicion you're going to say that, so
sminty listeners, we are going to have a campaign to
get bridget on vacation. I think Operation Vacation bridget Todd
Edition is officially engaged. Well, I have to say, when
(22:49):
I was in Australia, my hosts when I said, oh,
I haven't had a vacation for years, my hosts were baffled.
My one friend was like, we just came from BALI like,
what do you mean? They could not wrap their heads
around it. And I think it's a uniquely American thing
of not feeling like it's okay to take time off,
not feeling like it's okay to like go to the
beach if that's what you want to do. Yeah, I
(23:10):
think that's a uniquely American thing, because certainly my Australian
hosts were like, no, we take vacations literally all the time.
I know, we could talk, we could do a whole
episode on that. I wrote a lot about that this
summer on my Forbes column, actually because it is tied
to our American connection between self worth and productivity. But yeah,
I think vacation selfies are probably one of the most
(23:33):
envy generating content pieces or categories on social media red large.
So you are far from alone on the front. Do
you have an envy? Mine's always it really. I have
a nagging project I haven't finished yet, which is a book.
So mine are always about professional envy, like awesome friends
who are writing their books, or friends who met a
(23:54):
v I P that I've been trying to meet for
a long time. You know the drill. It's it's like
typical creative entrepreneur and jealousy. Yeah, I mean something that
has been helpful for me in that regard with that
kind of content that I see on social media a
lot is reminding myself, Wow, I am in a community
of kick ass women. We do kick ass things exactly.
(24:14):
That has been I think initially I would see someone
do something cool and be like, oh, I want to
do that, right, I'm better than her, like why is
she getting this opportunity and not me like blah blah blah,
but reminding myself, Oh, how cool that these kinds of
people are in my network. People who win is not
my loss exactly exactly, And for me flipping it back
and saying her win is kind of a win for me.
(24:37):
I'm the kind of girl who knows, the kind of
girl who knows what yes, exactly but exactly That is
not what's happening on a lot of college campuses in particular,
and especially a lot of younger folks, because that skill
of being able to flip a narrative in your own
head takes time, it takes practice, and really, unfortunately, not
(25:00):
having developed those skills or not giving our young like
students the ability to learn those skills in a safe
way when they're coming up on social media as the
basis of theirs, I would say an integrated part of
their reality can have really life or death consequences. Totally.
That brings me to a story that is so so
(25:21):
tragic and one that I sadly identified with a little bit,
and I'm sure a lot of people can identify. And
that is the story of Madison hollerand Um. If you
don't know who she is, she was a college student,
um nineteen years old. She was a freshman at Penn
and Philadelphia, and she tragically killed herself. And when she
did so, many of her friends and family were shocked,
(25:43):
mostly because she seemed to be projecting living this picture
perfect life. ESPN did an amazing long read about her,
her tragic death and her life and the way that
social media had a big role, particularly Instagram. One of
the saddest things about her story is that an hour
before she took her own life, she posted a seemingly
charming Instagram photo from Rittenhouse Square near her campus, before
(26:07):
jumping off a parking garage, and she clearly filled with
the picture. And you know, it's a picture that seems
to be like twinkling Christmas lights, and you would see
this and think this is a girl who is living
a happy life and is really happy about where she is,
and it turned out that she wasn't, and no one
really knew. And what's worse, no one really knew that
they were all kind of feeling the same way when
(26:27):
she took her life. So many of her classmates and
friends also reported I felt the same way. I was lonely,
I was depressed, I was anxious, I wasn't sure about school.
I was feeling all these new feelings. But everyone else
seems so happy, So I felt like I had to
be happy too, and like there was something wrong with me.
It wasn't distress, it wasn't the life, it wasn't the
(26:50):
major life changes that we were all dealing with. There
was something flawed about me personally. It's so tragic. So
a really telling line from this ESPN article about her life.
They write, the life Madison projected on her own Instagram
feed was filled with shots that seemed to confirm everyone's expectations.
Of course, she was loving her first year of college.
Of course she enjoyed running. Her mom remembers looking at
(27:11):
a photo on her feet and saying, Madison, you look
like you're so happy at this party. Mom. Madison said,
it's just a picture. Oh good, that's just so scary
to think about as a parent, or think about a
friend of yours who's going through something like that. That
(27:32):
just like, it's very hard to ask for help when
you are struggling with feelings of depression or God forbids suicide.
It's extremely unlikely that you're gonna ask for help in
the form of posting something on social media saying I'm struggling.
Here's me in a depressive episode, like I'm having a bad,
bad go of it. I need help, you know, Like,
it's hard to ask for that kind of support, and
(27:54):
knowing that they are friends of yours that might be
projecting this otherwise very sunny disposition who are in need
of that kind of help, just it's terrifying. It is terrifying,
and I think, you know, one of the things I
think that article really showed is that young women feel
this intense pressure to just be perfect all the time,
and even if something is going wrong, even if they
(28:14):
need help, that's not cool, that's not sexy, that's not effortless,
and so they have to amask that and tell no one.
I mean, it really is troubling, and it reminds me
of a similar social experiment that was taken up last
year in called Like My Addiction, and this campaign was
created with help from production company Francine from Bois for
(28:37):
Addict Aid, which sought to raise awareness for alcoholism amongst
young people in it and overnight Instagram success, A girl
known as Louise Delage is apparently a twenty five year
old social media starlet who wrapped up over fifty thousand
likes in a couple of months, really just posting a
(28:57):
ton of photos, uh, showing her at boat parties, traveling,
having endless dinners, and it seems like a pretty common
place Instagram feed of a happy, go lucky party girl.
But what you realize, or what some people caught onto
the fact of is in almost every photo she's always
(29:18):
holding a drink. And so really the campaign sought to
expose the fact that Louise, even though she was a
made up character, she has all the markings of a
textbook addict, an alcoholic. I mean, these are posts from
a daily basis of her drinking large amounts of alcohol,
sometimes posting two to three posts per day. So it's just,
(29:41):
you know, it's interesting to see that a lot of
people didn't recognize the signs of alcoholism, just like we
wouldn't recognize the signs of depression on an Instagram feed
that otherwise looked quite positive and happy. Yeah. I mean,
what's so fascinating about that is if if she was
real and she's said, hey, I have a drink every day,
(30:02):
sometimes multiple drinks in a day. I drink three times
a day every day and I have for years, you'd
you'd say, oh, you might have a problem. If it
looks glossy and pretty and it's near sunset or on
a boat or on a beach, then we like it exactly.
And I think that that connects so well back to
Madison the hollerand story around depression and other kinds of
(30:25):
mental issues and how they can play out on social media.
From this ESPN story, they write, checking Instagram is like
opening a magazine to see a fashion advertisement, except and
add as branded as what it is, a staged image
on glossy paper, Instagram has passed off as a real life. Yes,
people filter their photos to make them prettier. People are
also often encouraged to put filters on their sadness to
(30:46):
brighten their reality so as not to quote drag down
those around them. The myths will exist that happiness is
a choice, which perpetuates the notion of depression as weakness.
Life must be instagrammed in more ways than one. It's
so sad. It's so sad, And I think it's so
true that even if you are having a hard time,
(31:07):
if you can make it look good or you know,
you know what I mean, yeah, appealing to others, then
it's not your problem exactly. I definitely when I was
kind of at my at my darkest in New York,
I definitely remember posting things that were meant to be
(31:27):
sort of cheeky or funny, and really I remember what
I was actually trying to say. It was like, I'm miserable.
Someone please ask me about it because I'm having a
hard time. But I don't. It's not cool to come
out and say that, and so what I did instead
is kind of mask it as a joke under a
funny picture or a funny caption. Um when I because
it's so difficult to say, particularly on social media, that
(31:51):
things are not great. And I think one of the
things where Madison's story that I think is so fascinating
is how her friends really took what happened to her
as a wake up call to be more honest about
how they show up on social media. And so, in
a partnership with ESPN, a lot of her friends went
back to their old Instagram pictures and recaption them with
the truth. And so it'll be a glowing, happy image
(32:14):
of a girl, and the person who's who posted the
picture will give a new caption that says, I look
really happy in this picture, but actually I had spent
all night crying. Um that party I was at, you know,
such and such happened and I was really upset about it.
But I didn't want people to think I had gone
to a party and not had a good time. So
I staged a picture where I was looked really happy
and really giving young people the tools to talk about
(32:37):
their issues on social media in ways that don't make
them feel like they have to be trapped by perfection.
We're gonna talk a little bit more about some of
the ways that folks can use social media in more
healthy ways after this pick break and We'rebecca and we
were just getting into some dark stuff about social media
(32:59):
that I'm sure we've all felt. Um. One of the
things I found really inspiring about madisone Holler and story
is how her friends and family have really sort have
taken what happened to her as a challenge to help
others um but a partnership with ESPN and her family
started to talk for Maddie Foundation, and basically this helps
young people get the tools they need to be more
honest online and to be more open about different issues
(33:22):
are struggling with. What I love about this campaign is
that they highlight that one of the best and most
easy and most obvious ways to show up better on
social media is really simple and really easy, and that
is to talk speak openly about experiences in school, either
as student athletes or just students, to make clear to
anyone going through something similar that they are not alone,
that there is clearing on the other side of the storm.
(33:44):
I think that is so critically important because if we're
so busy trying to reinforce a false reality of what
our social media life looks like by pretending in our
real life to uphold at that's exhausting, you know it, really,
it truly is a lot of work to keep up
(34:06):
with that kind of an image. I just love that
they're encouraging folks to use the hashtag talk for Maddie
in Madison's honor, to have the courageous conversations in real
life with your friends, with your loved ones, with your classmates,
even when you are struggling, or when folks are having
a tough time of any kind, that we don't need
(34:28):
to pretend that everything is perfect all the time, because
nothing is perfect all the time. Even though we use
hashtag perfect or hashtag but lest god, you know sometimes
where sometimes things are. You should seriously comment on my
stuff saying nobody cares if I ever use the hashtag
blass's hopefully catiously ironically, probably ironically, but yeah, I see
(34:54):
it used a lot, and I get the inclination to
want to make things perfect, but nothing's perfect all the time,
and really there's no such thing as perfect. I've even
seen one of my friends who's a therapist, really bravely
post when things are not going so well. She'll post
something like saying, here's my dirty, dirty kitchen. And I
have two small kids but below the age of five,
(35:16):
I have a career, and I am running this household
on this particular day, you know, and this is what
that looks like. And I'm not going to pretend like
things are perfect here all the time, she goes on
and says, I'm having a rough day, here's why. And
I think being willing to be brave in that way
is really compelling because even now, but especially when I
(35:41):
was in my darkest moments, when I was completely burned
out and navigating some big life transitions and trying to
escape a really toxic relationship, I thought, if I don't
have something good to say, I should say nothing at all.
And so it was sort of like social media silence
there for a little while. Yeah. I guess, yeah, come
(36:01):
to think of it, that that might still be my policy.
That's probably why might feel looks good. It's like what
I'm having a bad day, I usually don't post. Yeah.
But I think going back to the example that you
just gave it that your their your therapies friend, I
think when people see that, they connect. So I think
with you're totally When you're a frazzled parent and your
(36:22):
day looks like, you know, missing the big soccer game
and screwing up dinner and being late for work and
having your shirt on inside out all day or whatever
whatever it looks like, when you're honest about that, it
gives other parents the currency that, yeah, my days look similar.
The people who try to present this perfect I'm killing
(36:44):
it all the time. Those are people who make us,
who can make us feel alienated exactly. Think when people
are honest about what they're going through other people, it
really resonates. I think one of my favorite examples of
that was when a friend accidentally wore two different shoes
for most of her day. She loved the house, but
she even she is on and she did she posted
a photo of it saying this is what this is
(37:04):
what's happening here on this Tuesday. And I was just like, yes, girl,
like thank you for sharing that, because not only is
it honest and real and indicative of just how crazy
and imperfect our lives can be sometimes, but it was funny. Yeah.
I mean I think about a time that I did
that where I almost was like, oh, this might be
t m I but I had been back and forth
and back and forth in airports, and I didn't have
(37:24):
time to do a lot of personal cleaning things, and
I had to freeze my leggings that for freeze the
cratch of my jeggings. And people will often say, oh,
your life looks so Jet said, and so hip and
blah blah blah, and sometimes that looks like for freezing
your jeggings, right, Like, it doesn't always look as cool
as it might look. Sometimes I'm taking notes Sarah Bridget,
(37:46):
I love it for breeze those for breeze, those jagging Wait,
that's I mean, that's a good jip noted. Yeah, for sure.
So let's talk a little bit more about what you, yes,
you listener can do to make sure we don't get
caught up in social media. So one tip is not
just to get caught up in sharing. When you have
the perfect trip or the perfect avocado toast or the
(38:07):
perfect sunset, don't be afraid to also share the mundane things.
What does your life really look like? Right? And be
honest with yourself and with others, and be kind to
yourself when you're sharing that. The other that I found
really compelling is that to remember that the study from
the University of Missouri suggests that using Facebook to compare
your life to others is where depression really gets its start.
(38:31):
The other thing to keep in mind is that this
research from the University of Missouri really focuses on the
comparison trap as the root of depression. So if you
find yourself using social media Instagram or otherwise to look
at other people's lives and compare it to yours and
you find yourself stumbling into that envy cycle, acknowledge what's
(38:54):
happening first, become aware of when you're feeling triggered in
that way, and give yourself permission to get out of
that comparison trap. Remind yourself that their winds are not
your losses, that if you're feeling envy, lean into that
discomfort enough to get clear on what exactly about their
life is something you want more of in your life,
and make a plan to get more of it, whatever
(39:15):
that might be. Find a way to take proactive action
to getting after what it is that you really want.
I love that advice so much and it's been really
useful for me in my life. I also think remembering
that if you're envious of somebody, it's possible they're envious
of you too. Um. I looked at my friends who
have seemingly perfect home lives in our hometown. They own houses,
(39:38):
they are married, they have kids, they have dogs, they
have land. You know, they have what seems to be
this perfect domestic life and I'll say that I'm a
little jealous. I want that those same people could be
looking at my life and saying the same thing, like, oh,
she her life looks exciting, her life looks you know,
she's got a lot going on. And it's interesting to
me that we the grasses would have always green our
(40:00):
exactly we think about our situation. We assume, oh, it's
everyone else is having a better time than me. But
people could be doing the same thing about you. Absolutely,
And that's why it's so important to have the talks
in real life, right to talk for Maddie to this
idea of continuing those conversations not only when you're killing it,
but also especially when you don't feel like life is
(40:22):
giving you a fair shake, Like have those conversations in
real life. Pick up the phone and use it for
its original intended purpose. Right now, it's terrifying. I can
imagine I haven't spoken to anyone on the phone, and
the closest I come is FaceTime. But FaceTime or otherwise
with someone who you can actually confide in. And beyond
(40:43):
what we can all do is individual social media users.
There's actually things that social media companies can actually do.
Um The authors of that University Missoury study that we
referenced earlier in the show. They say that social media
companies can actually be embedding tools into their platforms that
encourage healthier use of social medi you. These include things
like a pop up warning to let people know when
(41:03):
they've been on the app ford extended period of time,
or disclosures indicating what a photo has been digitally enhanced
or filtered. I like that idea. I mean, here's a thing.
These sounds so unlikely to me because every app has
been designed to be as addictive as possible so that
you stay on the site, so that you continue to
be served ads, so that they continue to make money.
And at the end of the day, we need to
(41:24):
remember that social media sites are for profit enterprises. They
are selling you. You are the product, You are the
eyeballs that they're selling to their advertisers, and it's just
important to remember that. When we're binging on Instagram, it's
just important to remember that you're being used as much
as you are using the software. Yeah, one of the
(41:44):
authors of the study really put it well. We said,
it's important that we have checks and balances in place
to make social media less of a wild West when
it comes to young people's mental health and well being,
and it seems like right now we're not doing that,
and we could be absolutely and that's why it's so
important that we keep talking to one another. It is
so hard and so brave to ask for help when
(42:07):
you need it. That especially for those who are listening today,
for whom Maddie's story resonates, I think it's important for
us to just put the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline out
there for a second, because if you are feeling like
you're struggling with depression or suicidal thoughts, allow this to
be the moment when you take your life back, when
(42:28):
you take that next courageous step of asking for help.
And that number is one eight hundred two seven three
eight two five F. That's one hundred two seven three
eight to five. And that number might sound familiar to
some of you, because if you caught this August MTV
Video Music Awards, you would know that deaf jam artists
(42:49):
Logic performed his new single of the same name to
seven three eight to five five, during which time calls
to the National Suicide Preventional Line spiked. And as we
signed off today, you're gonna hear a little bit more
from our good friend logic, and we really want to
hear from you to talk to us. What about this
episode resonated with you? What is your social media trigger
(43:11):
when you see avocado toast on Instagram? Do you instantly
get a twins in your tummy? I want to hear
all of it. Let us know. You can get in
touch with us on Instagram. I know. We just spent
the whole day talking about it at stuff Mom Never
Told You, on Twitter, at mom Stuff podcast, and as
always on email at mom Stuff at how stuff works
dot com. I'm I'm gonna time. I feel like a
(43:37):
lot of my mind, it feel like my life, same mind.
I want you to be alive. I want you to be.
You don't got a dot a day. I want you
to be. I want you to be
Hey, this is Emily, and and you're listening to stuff
mom never told you. And today I'm pretty excited to
tackle a topic that definitely has showed up in my life,
and I bet it has showed up in a lot
(00:26):
of y'all's lives as well. And that is the quest
for social media perfection. Emily, this is something you can
really do. Absolutely. I think there is so much pressure
on all of us, but especially women, for some reason,
to live what I call a Pinterest perfect life, right,
this idea that everything has to look like your life
(00:49):
is beautiful. You have to showcase your perfect career, your
perfect little family, your perfect little life, your perfect little house,
your latte. And I fall into that trap all the time.
Instagram pres is pretty, your life looks amazing. Your life
is amazing, but it looks looks amazing. It definitely looks
more amazing than it actually is. But it's because it's
a highlight reel. That's exactly it. I think back to
(01:11):
when I was living in New York City having probably
the worst, most oppressing time of my life. All my
friends they said things like, we can't believe you were
so unhappy. Your life looked so exciting on Instagram because
you were always seeing celebrities and going at and blah
blah blah. And I said, yeah, I think I was
trying to curate a very happy and exciting life to
make up for the fact that my life actually wasn't
(01:32):
very happy or exciting. It was actually very depressing and sad.
And so the research is clear that this is something
that young people, particularly women, are really struggling with. Many
young people are struggling with mental health issues, depression, anxiety,
but really projecting this very perfect life. And one of
the things that makes that so interesting is that they
(01:52):
really feel to need to do that because they think
all their other friends are living perfect lives, and so
it becomes an echo chamber where everyone seems to be
living their best life, having the most delicious avocado toad,
drinking the coolest latte, having the most amazing yoga classes,
you know, having the most charming pets, But actually, no
(02:15):
one's life is amazing all the time. I know, it's
this weird economy because there's the alternative, which is open
moaning on social media. And I'm not saying that there
is some time in a place for venting, but there's
you know, what are you supposed to do. Are you
supposed to take out your phone and take a selfie
when you're having a depressive episode and a panic attack
(02:36):
or you're feeling fat and you're like, today is not
a day when I can wear those genes that I
wish I wanted, that I had planned to wear today.
You know, it's just like this idea that, of course
we know we're all curating our lives. The warped problem
emerges when we forget that everyone else is curating their
(02:57):
life as well. Exactly that sob to sleep. For as
long as people have been communicating with each other, you know,
sending car of your pigeons, or smoke signals or letters
via Pony Express of any of that, people have been
curating the highlights of their of their life. That's totally
normal and completely understandable. But what's different about social media
is the extent to which we consume the curated lives
(03:19):
of others. So it's just like what you're saying, Yeah,
it's like everything that's wrong with media targeting girls, like
the proliferation of air brushing, for instance, that sets an
impossibly high standard for what your body is supposed to
look like, is now peer to peer, you know what
I mean, Like everything that is warped and makes you
feel awful about yourself when flipping through a fashion magazine
(03:40):
is now so pervasive because what has really been designed
to keep us all in touch with one another has
resulted in us comparing ourselves to one another. And that's
exactly when you fall into a lot of the pitfalls
that we're going to talk about today. Um So, I
just wanted to really highlight this one's suddy. A recent
(04:00):
survey conducted by the Girl Scouts found that nearly seventy
of girls agreed that other girls try to make themselves
look quote cooler than they are on social networking site.
That's the mean thing to say. I want to say,
even a question is a little the phrasing, the phrasing,
it's a little mean. It just sounds like a seventh
grade insult. Emily, you think you're so much cooler than
(04:23):
you are, and you're like, I know you're right, Emily,
seventy of other classmates asked so that you came off
as quote too cool for school? How do you how
do you respond to that? I'm gonna go to the
bathroom cry. That's what that was my seventh grade go
to move same um, and so what's really fascinating is
that they're really putting starting to put a name to
(04:44):
this condition. Gregory T. Eels, the director of the Gannett
Health Services at Cornell University. He calls it quote social perfection,
or the appearance of living a perfect light across various
social media platforms, which Eel says can be just as
damaging to the person seeing those kinds of images as
it is to people who see them. So really it's
about when you fall into this trap of feeling the
(05:07):
need to put out perfection and images that are perfect,
other people see them, and it becomes this vicious cycle
of everyone feeling like crap about themselves exactly. And I
love what he goes on to say about internalizing that
as reality, because that's where the problems really arise when
you think, like, for instance, if my self worth was
directly connected to my Instagram feed, I would feel the
(05:30):
need to keep up with that image in a really
compulsive way. So what he's saying is that it's just
as problematic for the poster who gains that kind of
very understandable satisfaction from peer to peer approval from their
online persona. He says, quote, it's not as if you
really think I have to be perfect. It's that I
think that you think that I have to be perfect,
(05:53):
and so I need to put that image out constantly.
I'm pretty sure that a particular Kylie Jenner talks about
this quite often on the Life of Kylie is about
I may or may not have been consuming lately, because
she talks about the difference between her own reality and
her image. And as much as we like to pretend
(06:16):
like celebrities, lives aren't quite like our own. I think
in that regard they really are. Everyone has their own
sphere of influence, and so when you feel this dissociation
between the image you've created or what other people think
of you as, and that image is something that's intimately
connected to your own sense of identity and self, that's
(06:36):
where some problems can arise. I think that's true, and
I think, again, I've definitely been guilty of getting caught
up in that. But I think what Kylie is saying
I never thought i'd use this phrase, But what I
think Kylie is saying is so thoughtful because it really
reminds us that when we're on social media platforms like Instagram.
Not only are we competing with our friends or classmates,
(06:58):
we're competing with people who have teams that are dedicated
to making their life look perfect and awesome. Right Like
Kylie has an entire team of people. She's not just
casually posting things in her bedroom the way that some
of us are. And that again adds to that filter
bubble where it's not clear where reality begins and ends,
even within ourselves. And comparing herself to someone who has
(07:21):
a whole professional team behind their online presence is not fair.
It's not fair, and it's it's it's just a big trap. Um.
Something I love that Eels says is that when he
counsels with students, they often say when they're depressed or
having a hard time, Oh, I look at so and
so's life and she's so happy, or this person's life
seems so perfect. And he says, I can point at
(07:42):
those students and think that one's gone to the hospital,
that person has an eating disorder, that student just went
on antidepressants. As a therapist, I know that nobody is
as happy or grown up as they seem on the outside. Yeah,
And this seems to be especially pervasive on college campuses,
which doesn't surprise me, given the hyper connectedness of a
(08:03):
society that's on a campus together and connected virtually. In fact,
in two thousand three, Duke produced a report describing how
female students felt pressure to be quote effortlessly perfect, being smart, accomplished, fit, beautiful,
and popular, all without visible effort. At Stanford, it's called
(08:25):
the duck syndrome because the duck appears to glide calmly
across the water well beneath the surface, it's frantically, relentlessly
paddles the things I want to unpack from that is effortless.
What the hell? When did that become part of the
thing we need to be. It's wild to me that
you are expected, if you are a young woman on
one of these campuses dealing with this kind of thing,
(08:45):
You're expected to be popular, beautiful, thin, social, all of that,
all without any artifice of trying too hard. Because I
woke up like this, of course, didn't we all exactly?
I have always failed on that front. In like my
personal life, like has always put me in the category
of nerd or overachiever, or brown noser or annoyer, an
(09:08):
intense person, and has always been clear from the very beginning,
is that effort is something that I put into everything
that I do to a to a terrible extent, you
know what I mean. Like I especially chafe at this
idea of effortless perfection because that is something I will
I have never been able to and will never be
(09:29):
able to achieve that image of not trying but just
being that cool, like Barack Obama has an effortless cool
to him, even though you know he puts in work, right,
But why is effortlessness something that we've elevated right now?
As I know you personally, I know that you're someone
who really cares about things. You want things to be good,
You want things to be the best they can be.
(09:51):
You really have high standards, not because you're a brown noser,
because you're a dorc. It's because you care about things
being good and you want things to be right, and
that takes effort. Things just don't fall into place. It
takes work and effort. And I don't know where we
got to this point where you have to be sexy, smart, effective,
blah blah blah, but you also can't show any of
(10:11):
the machinations that go into that otherwise you're intense and adore,
and you're hated like Ann Hathaway. Yeah, yes, yes, really
super identify with that. There's a really great article about
why some people don't like it Hathaway, and it comes
It comes back to the idea that people sense that
she's trying, and even though she's great, she's a great actress,
(10:33):
singer's not so t wanted. She comes off as wanting
it too much, so we don't give it to the
opposite is Jennifer Lawrence. She's the cool girl that doesn't care. Man,
she just does whatever. She flies off the handle, she
doesn't care, you know, she's just hanging. And that is
the kind of thing I distinctly remember being envious of
(10:54):
those people until I came to accept that I care
about everything, probably a little too much it, and there's
no hiding it. And one of my biggest faults is
how much I care. And I'm okay with that. I've
accepted that because Jennifer Lawrence is an impossibly high standard
for not caring and still looking amazing. Um, she definitely cares.
(11:15):
She may like we may have decided that for whatever reason,
she doesn't care and it's not trying, but that's definitely
not true. Yeah. Isn't it interesting though how people perceive
those two women very differently, basicly on effortlessness or effort alone. Yeah,
I mean this almost takes me back to our episode
around Lisa Simpson about one of the things that she
(11:35):
gets that that show gets so right is that she cares.
She tries very hard, and that's okay. It's it should
be cool to try hard. Caring about stuff is cool,
And it's not that she always succeeds, and that effort
is no less important or valued when she's succeeding or failing, which, man,
I love Lisa. I know I could talk. We always
go back to the Simpsons' is one of those constants
on the show. It's true. So bringing it back to
(11:57):
social media sites like Instagram and Facebook, it actually turns
out that it's not what sites do you use, it's
how you use them. And we're gonna tease that out
after a quick word from our sponsors and we're back.
We were just talking about social media and how it
can really get into our heads. So it turns out
(12:20):
that with sites like Facebook, a lot of it has
to do with how you're using it. According to a
study from University of Missouri. Facebook has been linked to
symptoms of depression. If the social networking site is used
to compare your life with the life of your peers.
If you're using it to just stay connected or see
your friends, or see your friends new baby, things like that,
it's fine. But if you're using it actively to compare
(12:43):
your life to the life of other people, I would say, like,
particularly people your age, that's when you really have a problem.
And I just want to acknowledge that. A hundred percent
of people listening, we're like, that's me because we've all
been there. Have you ever rage liked something? You're like,
I hate you like I have You're like you in
your perfect seeming life, you know, screw you. Here's a
(13:04):
little like button and it thumbs up to you in
your finished book manuscript or you're you know, so you're
traveling the world. You're in Alaska on some cruise, like,
I hate you, but I'm gonna hit a like button
because I don't want to hate you. I wish I
didn't hate you. This whole psychological uh management happens within
(13:24):
your own brain where you say you know something, fiery
flames up inside of you and you're like why why
am I reacting this triggered kind of way. I shouldn't
feel that way. And when you say I shouldn't have
those feelings, we suppress and we box it in and
we throw it to the forest farthest recesses of our
consciousness and pretend like it didn't happen, when in reality
(13:48):
there's something different you can do. And you know I'm
not alone in this, and I am I bridgin No,
you're not alone. I was gonna say this doesn't make
me sound like a very good person, but I'm gonna
say it anyway. Me and my friends have a running
group where when someone posts something really just like look
at my amazing vacation, will screenshot the picture and be like,
for fifty dollars, would you write no one cares at
(14:10):
a comment and you've never actually done it, but the
antie has gotten very high. For a thousand dollars if
you comment no one cares on this? That is so aggressive.
I love it. I love it. It's not aggressive that
it's happening in a private group chaw. It would be
if someone actually took it up on them. But that's
there is a part of everyone that wants to do
(14:31):
that because and here's my theory behind it is something
about that picture reminded you of something that you wish
you had more of in your life. Totally, and that
actually goes right back to the research the University of
Missouri researchers down that Facebook postings about things like expensive vacations,
new houses or cars, happy relationships, evil feelings with envy
(14:54):
amongst surveillance social media users. And so when you see
that big house, it reminds you that you live of
an a walk up, crappy apartment in Washington, DZ has
bugs if you're me or no, it's actually lovely, but
it's no, it's not a house that I own. But
or when you see you know that beautiful you know
tropical vacation, you're reminded that you don't have vacation days,
(15:16):
or that you can't take a vacation, or that you
wish you could and you can't. Exactly. There's resentment that
bubbles up. And when we give ourselves permission to really
instead of like rage quit or rage clothes the browser,
instead of suppressing that emotion and telling yourself, I shouldn't
I should feel happy for them, I shouldn't hate this person,
processing it a little bit. Maybe it's through a private
(15:38):
group chat, but thinking to yourself, what about this person's
life do I want more of? In mind? And what
can I do to make it happen. It's such a
mindful way to think about it, where you don't spin
out in your own envy and rage, but you make
a plan for you, an actionable plan for your life.
And seeing someone's new baby fills you with instant dread
(16:01):
and envy. Maybe it's because you that's something you want
in your life. Of seeing someone's finished book, manuscript or
finished marathon fills you with a weird feeling in your
gut that makes you instantly feel weird. Maybe that's something
you need to make a plan for in your life.
That's what I hadn't thought about that. That's a good idea.
It's the way to reverse engineer envy to actually point
you in the direction of what you want. So instead
(16:21):
of saying I hate that I'm envious of that person,
I'm going to run away from those negative emotions that
we shouldn't be feeling. Say, you know, without judgment, in
a mindful way, I'm feeling this feeling. Why what do
I need more of in my life? How can I
get more of that in my life? And maybe you
can't change the fact that you don't have vacation days,
(16:41):
but maybe you can start a savings fund for a
long weekend that's coming up. Maybe you can look into
booking staycation with your best day, you know what I mean? Like,
what can you proactively do? If you allow the envy
to trigger action on your part, you're gonna feel a
lot better. That's so interesting that you say that the
has I think working through instant negative gut feelings that
(17:04):
we have is so difficult, so difficult because we live
in a society that literally says you shouldn't feel that way,
So runaway. Feel ashamed that you felt envious. So now
you don't just feel sad that you don't have what
they have. You feel bad for feeling sad because we're
all supposed to be happy at the time, which is
the topic of another conversation. But we should talk about
(17:25):
like America's relationship with happiness in particular, because did you
know that we smile more than any other society of people.
I did not know that. For future discuss that. That
is a good tid. Here's something that will surprise no one,
though of all the social media sites, there is one
that researchers have found is most likely to trigger depression,
(17:47):
anxiety and loneliness, according to a UK wide study by
the Royal Society for Public Health. It's not surprising, is
it brigid that of all the platforms, it is the
one and only Instagram. It's the Graham surprising no one. Actually,
one thing I did find surprising about the study is
that the social networking platform that is most likely to
(18:07):
generate positive content creation and make people feel good is YouTube.
I found that very surprising. YouTube is a very tightnit
community of creators and they all reference each other often.
There's a lot of music happening there. I like. I
like that. I'm not surprised by that. So as you
don't read the comments if you think the very in
different about being a creator on YouTube versus anyone who
(18:30):
comments on YouTube is like likely to be a sociopath, yes,
or at least a closeted sociopath who rages against people
on YouTube comment why have it comments so bad? So bad?
If they're so toxic, don't read them? Um yeah, Instagram,
it doesn't surprise me at all. I mean, Instagram is
so full of picture perfect lives and avocado toast and
(18:52):
all of this. I actually just saw a movie about
the dark side of Instagram called Ingland Goes West. Um.
If you haven't seen it, it's it's definitely worth checking out.
Based the Aubrey Plaza is a very disturbed young woman
who gets so caught up in Instagram and having this
perfect Instagram life that she goes to a very very
dark place because she can't. She cannot detach Instagram reality
(19:13):
from reality reality. And so if it happens on Instagram,
if it's real, if someone is living the best life
on Instagram, they have the best life, and she needs
to be having that, and if she doesn't, then she
can't measure up with Without giving any spoilers away, like,
was there an overarching lesson? Uh, The overarching lesson is
that Instagram is not always what it seems, and that
(19:37):
Instagram it isn't. Yeah, it's not, it's not real. That
getting caught up in it can be really toxic. It
also has a wrinkle of the idea of people who
make money from perfect instagrams, and so so often when
you see a beautiful post it's sponsored or you know,
spawn con or whatever. That that is its own kind
of weird thing that we don't really that our brains
(19:58):
don't really allow us to fully acknowledge. Yeah, that's interesting.
You have to be careful with your media diet, right,
You have to be careful about what you're feeding your
brain and your eyes in terms of images, and when
we consume what we believe is a loosely filtered reality,
we can forget that it's not that loosely filtered. It's
(20:21):
quite filtered. It's quite censored, improved, highlighted. It really isn't
real life. But we forget that because it seems like
such a democratic, small d democratic medium, right right, it
seems so accessible, so that everybody must be having the
same kind of experience with the Graham that you are,
whatever that might mean. Yeah, I mean I've definitely tried
(20:43):
to be a little bit better about how I consume
Instagram because I'm super prone to insta jealousy and thinking
that people's curated lives or their real lives and sort
of not taking a step back and saying this is
super filtered, super curated obviously, because it's it's I think
he said this earlier. It is like looking through a
magazine but the magazine is your friends, and that makes
(21:04):
it so much worse, and it's so much easier to
compare your shortcomings with the shortcomings of your friends when
they look so perfect. Can I ask you about that? Yeah? So,
which images, if you could categorize them, do you feel
are the most likely to trigger that kind of envy
when you're pressing if you're willing. Um one is vacation photos.
(21:25):
And knew you were going to say that I am
not someone who takes a ton of vacation. Um. I
actually don't know when my last vacation was. I mean,
I can't remember it, So there we go. Um. I
took a really kind of life changing trip to Australia,
I think that I think you've mentioned on the show,
which to me felt like a vacation. But even that
was a working trip that was not a vacation. But
(21:46):
in my mind it's like I've never been like on
an Australian beach before, Like this is amazing, And you know,
I see my I have friends that really prioritize that
aspect of like their lives, making time for travel and
making time off and it's something that I've struggled with forever.
And seeing people who live I mean that I wouldn't
say they're busier than me or less busy than me.
(22:07):
We were, we probably are comparable in what our lives
look like in terms of work and responsibilities. And I
just can't help but look at them and I'm like,
how did you manage this? Like? How did you do
do a weekend trip to Cuba? Like what is like?
It's one of those things I've never been able to
make fit into my life. And when I see other
people seemingly make it fit so easily and so well,
(22:28):
I instantly feel like a pang in my stomach. I
had a sneaking suspicion you're going to say that, so
sminty listeners, we are going to have a campaign to
get bridget on vacation. I think Operation Vacation bridget Todd
Edition is officially engaged. Well, I have to say, when
(22:49):
I was in Australia, my hosts when I said, oh,
I haven't had a vacation for years, my hosts were baffled.
My one friend was like, we just came from BALI like,
what do you mean? They could not wrap their heads
around it. And I think it's a uniquely American thing
of not feeling like it's okay to take time off,
not feeling like it's okay to like go to the
beach if that's what you want to do. Yeah, I
(23:10):
think that's a uniquely American thing, because certainly my Australian
hosts were like, no, we take vacations literally all the time.
I know, we could talk, we could do a whole
episode on that. I wrote a lot about that this
summer on my Forbes column, actually because it is tied
to our American connection between self worth and productivity. But yeah,
I think vacation selfies are probably one of the most
(23:33):
envy generating content pieces or categories on social media red large.
So you are far from alone on the front. Do
you have an envy? Mine's always it really. I have
a nagging project I haven't finished yet, which is a book.
So mine are always about professional envy, like awesome friends
who are writing their books, or friends who met a
(23:54):
v I P that I've been trying to meet for
a long time. You know the drill. It's it's like
typical creative entrepreneur and jealousy. Yeah, I mean something that
has been helpful for me in that regard with that
kind of content that I see on social media a
lot is reminding myself, Wow, I am in a community
of kick ass women. We do kick ass things exactly.
(24:14):
That has been I think initially I would see someone
do something cool and be like, oh, I want to
do that, right, I'm better than her, like why is
she getting this opportunity and not me like blah blah blah,
but reminding myself, Oh, how cool that these kinds of
people are in my network. People who win is not
my loss exactly exactly, And for me flipping it back
and saying her win is kind of a win for me.
(24:37):
I'm the kind of girl who knows, the kind of
girl who knows what yes, exactly but exactly That is
not what's happening on a lot of college campuses in particular,
and especially a lot of younger folks, because that skill
of being able to flip a narrative in your own
head takes time, it takes practice, and really, unfortunately, not
(25:00):
having developed those skills or not giving our young like
students the ability to learn those skills in a safe
way when they're coming up on social media as the
basis of theirs, I would say an integrated part of
their reality can have really life or death consequences. Totally.
That brings me to a story that is so so
(25:21):
tragic and one that I sadly identified with a little bit,
and I'm sure a lot of people can identify. And
that is the story of Madison hollerand Um. If you
don't know who she is, she was a college student,
um nineteen years old. She was a freshman at Penn
and Philadelphia, and she tragically killed herself. And when she
did so, many of her friends and family were shocked,
(25:43):
mostly because she seemed to be projecting living this picture
perfect life. ESPN did an amazing long read about her,
her tragic death and her life and the way that
social media had a big role, particularly Instagram. One of
the saddest things about her story is that an hour
before she took her own life, she posted a seemingly
charming Instagram photo from Rittenhouse Square near her campus, before
(26:07):
jumping off a parking garage, and she clearly filled with
the picture. And you know, it's a picture that seems
to be like twinkling Christmas lights, and you would see
this and think this is a girl who is living
a happy life and is really happy about where she is,
and it turned out that she wasn't, and no one
really knew. And what's worse, no one really knew that
they were all kind of feeling the same way when
(26:27):
she took her life. So many of her classmates and
friends also reported I felt the same way. I was lonely,
I was depressed, I was anxious, I wasn't sure about school.
I was feeling all these new feelings. But everyone else
seems so happy, So I felt like I had to
be happy too, and like there was something wrong with me.
It wasn't distress, it wasn't the life, it wasn't the
(26:50):
major life changes that we were all dealing with. There
was something flawed about me personally. It's so tragic. So
a really telling line from this ESPN article about her life.
They write, the life Madison projected on her own Instagram
feed was filled with shots that seemed to confirm everyone's expectations.
Of course, she was loving her first year of college.
Of course she enjoyed running. Her mom remembers looking at
(27:11):
a photo on her feet and saying, Madison, you look
like you're so happy at this party. Mom. Madison said,
it's just a picture. Oh good, that's just so scary
to think about as a parent, or think about a
friend of yours who's going through something like that. That
(27:32):
just like, it's very hard to ask for help when
you are struggling with feelings of depression or God forbids suicide.
It's extremely unlikely that you're gonna ask for help in
the form of posting something on social media saying I'm struggling.
Here's me in a depressive episode, like I'm having a bad,
bad go of it. I need help, you know, Like,
it's hard to ask for that kind of support, and
(27:54):
knowing that they are friends of yours that might be
projecting this otherwise very sunny disposition who are in need
of that kind of help, just it's terrifying. It is terrifying,
and I think, you know, one of the things I
think that article really showed is that young women feel
this intense pressure to just be perfect all the time,
and even if something is going wrong, even if they
(28:14):
need help, that's not cool, that's not sexy, that's not effortless,
and so they have to amask that and tell no one.
I mean, it really is troubling, and it reminds me
of a similar social experiment that was taken up last
year in called Like My Addiction, and this campaign was
created with help from production company Francine from Bois for
(28:37):
Addict Aid, which sought to raise awareness for alcoholism amongst
young people in it and overnight Instagram success, A girl
known as Louise Delage is apparently a twenty five year
old social media starlet who wrapped up over fifty thousand
likes in a couple of months, really just posting a
(28:57):
ton of photos, uh, showing her at boat parties, traveling,
having endless dinners, and it seems like a pretty common
place Instagram feed of a happy, go lucky party girl.
But what you realize, or what some people caught onto
the fact of is in almost every photo she's always
(29:18):
holding a drink. And so really the campaign sought to
expose the fact that Louise, even though she was a
made up character, she has all the markings of a
textbook addict, an alcoholic. I mean, these are posts from
a daily basis of her drinking large amounts of alcohol,
sometimes posting two to three posts per day. So it's just,
(29:41):
you know, it's interesting to see that a lot of
people didn't recognize the signs of alcoholism, just like we
wouldn't recognize the signs of depression on an Instagram feed
that otherwise looked quite positive and happy. Yeah. I mean,
what's so fascinating about that is if if she was
real and she's said, hey, I have a drink every day,
(30:02):
sometimes multiple drinks in a day. I drink three times
a day every day and I have for years, you'd
you'd say, oh, you might have a problem. If it
looks glossy and pretty and it's near sunset or on
a boat or on a beach, then we like it exactly.
And I think that that connects so well back to
Madison the hollerand story around depression and other kinds of
(30:25):
mental issues and how they can play out on social media.
From this ESPN story, they write, checking Instagram is like
opening a magazine to see a fashion advertisement, except and
add as branded as what it is, a staged image
on glossy paper, Instagram has passed off as a real life. Yes,
people filter their photos to make them prettier. People are
also often encouraged to put filters on their sadness to
(30:46):
brighten their reality so as not to quote drag down
those around them. The myths will exist that happiness is
a choice, which perpetuates the notion of depression as weakness.
Life must be instagrammed in more ways than one. It's
so sad. It's so sad, And I think it's so
true that even if you are having a hard time,
(31:07):
if you can make it look good or you know,
you know what I mean, yeah, appealing to others, then
it's not your problem exactly. I definitely when I was
kind of at my at my darkest in New York,
I definitely remember posting things that were meant to be
(31:27):
sort of cheeky or funny, and really I remember what
I was actually trying to say. It was like, I'm miserable.
Someone please ask me about it because I'm having a
hard time. But I don't. It's not cool to come
out and say that, and so what I did instead
is kind of mask it as a joke under a
funny picture or a funny caption. Um when I because
it's so difficult to say, particularly on social media, that
(31:51):
things are not great. And I think one of the
things where Madison's story that I think is so fascinating
is how her friends really took what happened to her
as a wake up call to be more honest about
how they show up on social media. And so, in
a partnership with ESPN, a lot of her friends went
back to their old Instagram pictures and recaption them with
the truth. And so it'll be a glowing, happy image
(32:14):
of a girl, and the person who's who posted the
picture will give a new caption that says, I look
really happy in this picture, but actually I had spent
all night crying. Um that party I was at, you know,
such and such happened and I was really upset about it.
But I didn't want people to think I had gone
to a party and not had a good time. So
I staged a picture where I was looked really happy
and really giving young people the tools to talk about
(32:37):
their issues on social media in ways that don't make
them feel like they have to be trapped by perfection.
We're gonna talk a little bit more about some of
the ways that folks can use social media in more
healthy ways after this pick break and We'rebecca and we
were just getting into some dark stuff about social media
(32:59):
that I'm sure we've all felt. Um. One of the
things I found really inspiring about madisone Holler and story
is how her friends and family have really sort have
taken what happened to her as a challenge to help
others um but a partnership with ESPN and her family
started to talk for Maddie Foundation, and basically this helps
young people get the tools they need to be more
honest online and to be more open about different issues
(33:22):
are struggling with. What I love about this campaign is
that they highlight that one of the best and most
easy and most obvious ways to show up better on
social media is really simple and really easy, and that
is to talk speak openly about experiences in school, either
as student athletes or just students, to make clear to
anyone going through something similar that they are not alone,
that there is clearing on the other side of the storm.
(33:44):
I think that is so critically important because if we're
so busy trying to reinforce a false reality of what
our social media life looks like by pretending in our
real life to uphold at that's exhausting, you know it, really,
it truly is a lot of work to keep up
(34:06):
with that kind of an image. I just love that
they're encouraging folks to use the hashtag talk for Maddie
in Madison's honor, to have the courageous conversations in real
life with your friends, with your loved ones, with your classmates,
even when you are struggling, or when folks are having
a tough time of any kind, that we don't need
(34:28):
to pretend that everything is perfect all the time, because
nothing is perfect all the time. Even though we use
hashtag perfect or hashtag but lest god, you know sometimes
where sometimes things are. You should seriously comment on my
stuff saying nobody cares if I ever use the hashtag
blass's hopefully catiously ironically, probably ironically, but yeah, I see
(34:54):
it used a lot, and I get the inclination to
want to make things perfect, but nothing's perfect all the time,
and really there's no such thing as perfect. I've even
seen one of my friends who's a therapist, really bravely
post when things are not going so well. She'll post
something like saying, here's my dirty, dirty kitchen. And I
have two small kids but below the age of five,
(35:16):
I have a career, and I am running this household
on this particular day, you know, and this is what
that looks like. And I'm not going to pretend like
things are perfect here all the time, she goes on
and says, I'm having a rough day, here's why. And
I think being willing to be brave in that way
is really compelling because even now, but especially when I
(35:41):
was in my darkest moments, when I was completely burned
out and navigating some big life transitions and trying to
escape a really toxic relationship, I thought, if I don't
have something good to say, I should say nothing at all.
And so it was sort of like social media silence
there for a little while. Yeah. I guess, yeah, come
(36:01):
to think of it, that that might still be my policy.
That's probably why might feel looks good. It's like what
I'm having a bad day, I usually don't post. Yeah.
But I think going back to the example that you
just gave it that your their your therapies friend, I
think when people see that, they connect. So I think
with you're totally When you're a frazzled parent and your
(36:22):
day looks like, you know, missing the big soccer game
and screwing up dinner and being late for work and
having your shirt on inside out all day or whatever
whatever it looks like, when you're honest about that, it
gives other parents the currency that, yeah, my days look similar.
The people who try to present this perfect I'm killing
(36:44):
it all the time. Those are people who make us,
who can make us feel alienated exactly. Think when people
are honest about what they're going through other people, it
really resonates. I think one of my favorite examples of
that was when a friend accidentally wore two different shoes
for most of her day. She loved the house, but
she even she is on and she did she posted
a photo of it saying this is what this is
(37:04):
what's happening here on this Tuesday. And I was just like, yes, girl,
like thank you for sharing that, because not only is
it honest and real and indicative of just how crazy
and imperfect our lives can be sometimes, but it was funny. Yeah.
I mean I think about a time that I did
that where I almost was like, oh, this might be
t m I but I had been back and forth
and back and forth in airports, and I didn't have
(37:24):
time to do a lot of personal cleaning things, and
I had to freeze my leggings that for freeze the
cratch of my jeggings. And people will often say, oh,
your life looks so Jet said, and so hip and
blah blah blah, and sometimes that looks like for freezing
your jeggings, right, Like, it doesn't always look as cool
as it might look. Sometimes I'm taking notes Sarah Bridget,
(37:46):
I love it for breeze those for breeze, those jagging Wait,
that's I mean, that's a good jip noted. Yeah, for sure.
So let's talk a little bit more about what you, yes,
you listener can do to make sure we don't get
caught up in social media. So one tip is not
just to get caught up in sharing. When you have
the perfect trip or the perfect avocado toast or the
(38:07):
perfect sunset, don't be afraid to also share the mundane things.
What does your life really look like? Right? And be
honest with yourself and with others, and be kind to
yourself when you're sharing that. The other that I found
really compelling is that to remember that the study from
the University of Missouri suggests that using Facebook to compare
your life to others is where depression really gets its start.
(38:31):
The other thing to keep in mind is that this
research from the University of Missouri really focuses on the
comparison trap as the root of depression. So if you
find yourself using social media Instagram or otherwise to look
at other people's lives and compare it to yours and
you find yourself stumbling into that envy cycle, acknowledge what's
(38:54):
happening first, become aware of when you're feeling triggered in
that way, and give yourself permission to get out of
that comparison trap. Remind yourself that their winds are not
your losses, that if you're feeling envy, lean into that
discomfort enough to get clear on what exactly about their
life is something you want more of in your life,
and make a plan to get more of it, whatever
(39:15):
that might be. Find a way to take proactive action
to getting after what it is that you really want.
I love that advice so much and it's been really
useful for me in my life. I also think remembering
that if you're envious of somebody, it's possible they're envious
of you too. Um. I looked at my friends who
have seemingly perfect home lives in our hometown. They own houses,
(39:38):
they are married, they have kids, they have dogs, they
have land. You know, they have what seems to be
this perfect domestic life and I'll say that I'm a
little jealous. I want that those same people could be
looking at my life and saying the same thing, like, oh,
she her life looks exciting, her life looks you know,
she's got a lot going on. And it's interesting to
me that we the grasses would have always green our
(40:00):
exactly we think about our situation. We assume, oh, it's
everyone else is having a better time than me. But
people could be doing the same thing about you. Absolutely,
And that's why it's so important to have the talks
in real life, right to talk for Maddie to this
idea of continuing those conversations not only when you're killing it,
but also especially when you don't feel like life is
(40:22):
giving you a fair shake, Like have those conversations in
real life. Pick up the phone and use it for
its original intended purpose. Right now, it's terrifying. I can
imagine I haven't spoken to anyone on the phone, and
the closest I come is FaceTime. But FaceTime or otherwise
with someone who you can actually confide in. And beyond
(40:43):
what we can all do is individual social media users.
There's actually things that social media companies can actually do.
Um The authors of that University Missoury study that we
referenced earlier in the show. They say that social media
companies can actually be embedding tools into their platforms that
encourage healthier use of social medi you. These include things
like a pop up warning to let people know when
(41:03):
they've been on the app ford extended period of time,
or disclosures indicating what a photo has been digitally enhanced
or filtered. I like that idea. I mean, here's a thing.
These sounds so unlikely to me because every app has
been designed to be as addictive as possible so that
you stay on the site, so that you continue to
be served ads, so that they continue to make money.
And at the end of the day, we need to
(41:24):
remember that social media sites are for profit enterprises. They
are selling you. You are the product, You are the
eyeballs that they're selling to their advertisers, and it's just
important to remember that. When we're binging on Instagram, it's
just important to remember that you're being used as much
as you are using the software. Yeah, one of the
(41:44):
authors of the study really put it well. We said,
it's important that we have checks and balances in place
to make social media less of a wild West when
it comes to young people's mental health and well being,
and it seems like right now we're not doing that,
and we could be absolutely and that's why it's so
important that we keep talking to one another. It is
so hard and so brave to ask for help when
(42:07):
you need it. That especially for those who are listening today,
for whom Maddie's story resonates, I think it's important for
us to just put the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline out
there for a second, because if you are feeling like
you're struggling with depression or suicidal thoughts, allow this to
be the moment when you take your life back, when
(42:28):
you take that next courageous step of asking for help.
And that number is one eight hundred two seven three
eight two five F. That's one hundred two seven three
eight to five. And that number might sound familiar to
some of you, because if you caught this August MTV
Video Music Awards, you would know that deaf jam artists
(42:49):
Logic performed his new single of the same name to
seven three eight to five five, during which time calls
to the National Suicide Preventional Line spiked. And as we
signed off today, you're gonna hear a little bit more
from our good friend logic, and we really want to
hear from you to talk to us. What about this
episode resonated with you? What is your social media trigger
(43:11):
when you see avocado toast on Instagram? Do you instantly
get a twins in your tummy? I want to hear
all of it. Let us know. You can get in
touch with us on Instagram. I know. We just spent
the whole day talking about it at stuff Mom Never
Told You, on Twitter, at mom Stuff podcast, and as
always on email at mom Stuff at how stuff works
dot com. I'm I'm gonna time. I feel like a
(43:37):
lot of my mind, it feel like my life, same mind.
I want you to be alive. I want you to be.
You don't got a dot a day. I want you
to be. I want you to be
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