The Work Wife

Over our working lives, we encounter plenty of pals, acqaintances and even enemies, but the beloved work spouse is rarer -- and, it turns out, more productivity-enhancing. Cristen and Caroline look at what makes our work wives and husbands so special, how gender influences our relationships and how to prevent your IRL spouse from getting jealous.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to stuff Mom Never told You from housetop works
dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen
and I'm Caroline. And Caroline, I hope that this isn't
a too forward of a question to ask you in
a public forum, But I mean, do you think that

(00:26):
we're each other's work wives? Yeah? Yeah, I mean I
think so. We We work closely together, we see each
other outside of work. If anything weird is happening at work,
we're probably going to take a walk and talk about it.
We go pick up coffee together, we go downstairs and
shop at Jake Crew together. We have, thanks to you,

(00:48):
matching angry liberal feminists kill joy coffee mugs. I mean,
I don't know if we can get much work wifeier
than we are now. I were the wife eist, So
basically this podcast to just be called work wives. Hey, everybody,
welcome back, not sister wise no no, no, yeah, we

(01:11):
get a lot of confused listeners. Different. So I was
really interested to read about the whole work spouse relationship
because there are so many ways that you can cut it,
whether it is like a really close work friend or
the work wife who or work husband who might make

(01:32):
your actual wife or husband nervous like your co workers nervous. UM.
I love workplace relationship chats. Yeah yeah, and I I
do think that there are some things, and we'll talk
about this that can certainly complicate a work spouse relationship.
A lot of those things do have to do with
if your sexual orientations match each other's. Caroline minds, do

(01:56):
not doubt know. Um, at my last job, well, I mean,
aside from dude roommate who's like my life work spouse
and but he's your life wife, he is. Um, I
did have another work spouse who is a gay man,
and so that takes off any like potential conflict or

(02:19):
jealousy with a partner, although when all we want to
do is spend time together, I guess that there's a
little bit of jealousy. But then you've also got to
worry too about you know, do other coworkers feel excluded?
Do they feel like they're being left out? Is your
work spouse possibly casting you in a negative light by association?
I know you're just going around spewing terrible things out

(02:42):
of your mouth. Part that's gonna reflect badly on the
person you spent all your time with. Yeah, like when
when Matt and I ran around our old office putting
googly eyes on everything. I mean, well, we were doing
that together, so we reflected poorly on each other. Yeah,
I'm just imagining, like if Billy Eichner from Billy on
the Street wererior were your work wife. Because he's just

(03:03):
so so loud, always yelling. I was angry. I was
the one of my last job who got in trouble
for being loud. I did have the the boss, like
the boss boss come in to the break room and
tell me that my laugh carried so well. I hope
you responded, Actually, it doesn't carry it, Carol Lines, don't

(03:24):
call me Carrie. I'll fire myself now, thank you. So,
before we get to our our work spouse situation in
our millennial workplaces, why don't we talk a little bit
about how it used to be, because actually, you know,

(03:45):
the whole work spouse thing, or at least like work bestie,
is less common than it was. Yeah, which to me
almost feels counterintuitive because I feel like we spend so
much more time working. The forty hour work week is
something that I aspired to um and you know, when
you when you work in those kind of nebulous creative
and digital fields. Your work is never done and also

(04:09):
you can do it any time in any place, and
so there is that issue of seven connectivity as well. Um.
But yeah, we were looking at one study that showed
and this is something cited by Adam Grant in the
New York Times. But yeah, the studies show that in
about half of Americans said they had a close friend
at work, and by two thousand four this was true
for only thirty percent. And that's crazy. With how much

(04:31):
time we's been working, why don't we have more work friends.
And we even see that stat reflected in younger people's
expectations of their work environment and what their work friendship
situation is going to be. So in that same study
that Grant cited, UH, in two thousand and six, just
fort of American high school seniors thought that it was

(04:55):
very important to find a job where they could make friends.
That had been fifty percent in nineteen seventy six. Because
even though we're spending more time at work, we're I
don't know, we're just like efficiency machines or something. Oh god,
I think it's the opposite. Um, I think us spending
more time at work is less efficient. But let's now
refer people to our Bossed Up episode with guest Emily

(05:18):
Aries for more on that. Um. But to me, it
does make sense that we have d prioritized work friendships
because our entire approach to work and the workplace in
general has changed so much for people in our generation
and obviously will continue changing for younger folks as well, because,

(05:40):
for one, long term employment is no longer the aspirational
goal where you will work at X company for forty years,
they'll give you your knockoff roll X about to say,
a Rolodex, you wear that in your wrist, Yeah, I'd
be like a neat little bracelet heavy look at my

(06:00):
charm bracelet of despair. But of course that's not reality anymore.
I mean, as soon as the recession hit, I feel
like we millennials do not expect to be in jobs
typically more than like five years. Yeah, well you know,
I mean you've got the positive and negative side of that. Like,
we as a generation want to do the thing that

(06:22):
makes us happy. We want to chase down happiness. We're
not taught. We don't feel like we need to be
loyal to a company for fifty years. It's not one
of our top priorities instead of us tapping into our
passions Caroline right, passion jobs and yeah, I mean we
You know, I was at my first job out of
college for four years amid the recession, and I couldn't

(06:43):
really leave while that was happening because knew wouldn't be
able to get a job. But once I did, catapulted
right out of there. Yeah. I've been at hell Stuff
Works going on eight years. So you're almost at that
gold Rolodex. Yeah, I've almost got a gold millennial. Yeah,
gold Rolodex. And yeah, if my job were a child,

(07:03):
it would be in late elementary school. Yeah, and packing
its own lunch. So that's good. Yeah, I mean momy
got time for that. Yeah, at least it's a little
a little less hands on. Um. But in addition to
the fact that we don't necessarily stick around in one place,
we we job hop in ways like never before. Teleworking

(07:26):
also means less face to face communication. Although I do
feel like, Wow, I don't interface with people all that
often in my job because I do tell a work.
You and I both tell a work fairly often. But
thanks to slack, g chat and text in texting, I

(07:47):
think that's what they call it texting. We are always
still communicating, yeah, exactly. And one study did show that,
and this was a huge study, that as long as
you were in the office at least two and a
half days a week, and that applies to us, uh,
it won't have a negative effect on your work relationships.
You know, you'll still have you can still be buddy
buddy with people at work, just maybe not have a

(08:09):
work spouse per se. Yeah, I don't think that our
work Boston marriage has suffered from our teleworking. No, no,
not by any means. Um. You've also got the issue
of social media allowing us to remain connected with old friends,
college friends, whatever. So perhaps there is less of a drive,
especially if you're just at work, keeping your head down,

(08:31):
working for the weekend, because you know that, you know,
when you get to that weekend, you'll probably be able
to visit with friends that you've been able to keep
up with on the internet. And I'm wondering with all
of this keeping our heads down and working for the weekend.
You know, I wouldn't ever accuse the millennial generation of
having a Protestant work ethic per se. But I mean
we do have lingering aspects of that in order to

(08:54):
make it to the vacation, to make it to the
long holiday weekend or whatever. And of course, you know,
if you're wondering what the Protestant work ethic is and
you've been under a rock for hundreds of years, uh,
it comes from Martin Luther preaching that hard work and
any occupation was a meaningful duty. It was a calling
from God. And then John Calvin of you know Calvinism,

(09:17):
uh not can not Calvin Klein, Yeah, John Calvin Klein.
But you could argue that John Calvin's underwear were the
original Calvin's the original sin oh uh yeah. So Calvin
argued that people needed to avoid socializing while working because
you've got to put all of your attention and effort

(09:40):
into fulfilling God's will through your work. And so, you know,
let's gloss over a whole bunch of history and condense
a bunch of stuff into a really simplistic statement, which
is basically, like white Protestant guys, we're the one have
been the ones in power forever in this country, and
they're the ones who are the CEOs of office is traditionally,

(10:00):
and so you have this ingrained culture of put your
head down and get your work done. But what more
recent research is finding, and I think what newer companies
are facilitating, is how jobs are more satisfying when they
provide social opportunities, you know. I mean just think about

(10:22):
the Google Plex and all of the amenities that it has,
you know, for whether it is like free sushi. My
mind is always goes to the sushi. I want that
Google Sushi so badly. Um, but they'll have you know,
like video game rooms where you and your you know,
pro grammars can go chill acts and play some duck hunt.

(10:47):
I've clearly never been in that space before. Christen's actually
never left the house before. We're community. This is all
via the magic of the Internet that we're communicating. Uh yeah,
But I mean even that goes back to what you
were saying about more time spend at work isn't necessarily
more efficient. I mean, I think giving people those perks
at work to make them happier is important, and it

(11:11):
creates a happier workspace, which logically, so the logic goes
should make them better workers. But if we are just
working for the weekend with like our twisted millennial so
to speak, Protestant work ethic. You know, if we're not
taking the time to form those friendships and to enjoy
duck hunt and sushi at work, then we won't be

(11:35):
as happy as we could be. That's what researchers argue. Also,
those are my new like that is my work life
balance skull, some duck hunt and sushi. Yeah at my
job just a regular Tuesday afternoon fall half. What is
not my work life balance skull nor anyone's. I don't
I don't know that anyone actually likes this is the

(11:57):
toxic work environment. Yeah. And So to further drive home,
which is what we're going to be doing throughout this podcast.
To further drive home the importance of having that positive,
healthy work environment, we need to look at a study
that came out in from recruiting firm Cornerstone on Demand
and Northwestern University that looked into what being part of

(12:22):
a toxic work environment does for us. Because as much
as a happy work environment can contribute to our productivity,
toxic work environments, as anyone who's ever had a job
out there can attest to, that really takes away from
our productivity. So the study found that three to five
of all employees are fired for toxic behavior related reasons,

(12:45):
or I guess that's three to five percent of all
places who are fired, not just like Kristen today, is
you because you had because you're toxic um And those
reasons could be things like misconduct even drug or alcohol
abuse on the job, sexual harassment, and to have a
toxic coworker. And I have worked with someone at an

(13:06):
old job who did abuse substances at the office, and
trust me, it made things a little tense. Uh. That
toxic behavior does increase the likelihood that their colleagues will
themselves then engage in toxic bus basically because maybe they
feel resentful, or they just feel threatened or something, or
they'll just quit. So that the way that your environment

(13:30):
is shaped and feels at work absolutely affects everybody. And
having friends at work, even if they're not best friends,
but for sure, if you have a work spouse or two,
because again we're getting into sister work spouses, a little polygamy,
polygamy that can contribute to helping people want to stay yeah,

(13:53):
and maybe providing a buffer from that toxicity, because as
anyone who has worked in a toxic environ rnament knows,
it spreads like a virus. It does so quickly, it
doesn't take much. I my first job out of college
was at the newspaper, and you know, I came on
staff with such you know, a glimmer in my eye,

(14:13):
like so excited, uh totally naive. Um And one of
the first people I met was this woman who you know,
came off as very nice and funny and welcoming. And
then it just our relationship and I came to find
out that it was her relationship with everyone became one
of those toxic relationships because she loved to gossip. She

(14:35):
loved to uh pit people against each other. It was
just really unhealthy. But it I watched, and I can
especially see it now looking back watches. It just infected
everybody because it's hard to escape that negativity. Well, and
that brings us back to the positive role of a
work spouse or just a work bestie. If spouse feels

(14:57):
like too much of a commitment, you know, to say.
Um So, this research is coming from in the European
Business Review, because we are continental like that, like croissants. Yes, indeed,
we are the Croissans of podcasters. Um So. Researchers have
consistently found that employees who are friendlier work well together,

(15:21):
no big surprise, And a link has also been found
between relationship factors like cooperation and social support and team productivity.
So basically like nice people work better together and more
productively together exactly. Not to say if there's anything wrong
with like the occasional like lunch break cavetching session, but

(15:45):
when people who work together genuinely like each other, I
think it definitely adds to the environment. And plus, people
who say they have friends at work, according to this research,
are happier on the job. They report higher satisfaction, more cohesion,
more commitment to the company, and less intention to leave.
Even though, as we were talking about earlier, getting that
gold watch or for millennials gold rolodex is totally antiquated,

(16:10):
but it does make it a little bit emotionally anyway,
a little bit harder to leave when you are BFFs
or in a work spouse type relationship with someone because
because you don't want to let them down. You know,
I remember when dude roommate was leaving his old job.
You know, he was he was going to be making
a better and more positive step for himself career wise,

(16:30):
but he did feel connected to so many of his
work friends, and you don't want to leave them holding
the bag. But I mean, eventually, you know, you've got
to take the job. It's better for you, and hopefully
your work spouse is supportive. Well, yeah, it's just so
much time spent together too, on the emotional ups and
downs of the workplace. I know, like who's bringing in lunch?

(16:51):
Are you gonna get food poisoning from the work potluck?
And if you work at dunder Mifflin, for instance, it's
always you know, who's dating who this week? You know,
did Dwight put Jim's sandwich in a funny place? Is
Pam still silently just staring at the back of Jim's
head because she can't tell him how she really feels? Pam, Yeah, Pam, Jam.

(17:14):
And here's the thing. If you're Michael Scott, though, at
the Michael Scott of your office, your boss is not
into coworker friendships and relationships, is a little suspect or
even hostile toward them. That's probably not a good sign
about your boss. It's probably a sign that you might
have a Michael Scott. Yeah, because h a lot of

(17:35):
the research we read pointed out that okay, on the
surface level work friendships, they might signal a lack of
productivity because if you're chatting, if you're grabbing maybe a
long lunch, if you're doing this or that, your boss
might look at that and say, well, why aren't you working.
But according to Gallop, back from when they did a

(17:56):
deep dive into factors that make workers more productive, they
found that employers who recognize the role that close friendships
play in terms of fostering productivity, they're gonna be on
the better end of things. They're gonna basically, I don't know,
be rewarded for helping people foster those friendships because their

(18:17):
workers will be happier and therefore more productive versus your
kind of stick in the mud boss who you know
maybe walks into the brake room and tells you you're
too loud because you're laughing at your work spouse because
your laughter carolinees too far. But the question then is
whether there's a difference in having friendly casual acquaintances versus

(18:42):
the work bestie or work spouse, Because with casual work friends,
I mean, they kind of require less maintenance and are
less likely to be a distraction, and they can also
be a sounding board, foster teamwork and help get stuff
done without the sense of obligation associated with off the
clock best friends. But there's a wrinkling this. Yeah. So

(19:07):
this study by management professors at the University of Pennsylvania
and the University of Minnesota found that when they had
people complete a task, they either had acquaintances or they
had work friends work spouses. Basically, friends outperformed acquaintances every time.
And there's some critical factors in this. Like we said,

(19:30):
when it comes to leaving a company, like quitting a company,
your work spouse is going to make it harder because
you feel that sense of loyalty. So those friends were
more committed at the start of the project, They showed
better communication throughout the project. They offered their teammates positive
encouragement every step along the way. But they also, based
on the strong foundation of their friendship, didn't feel like

(19:54):
they could not offer criticism. If they saw that one
of their teammates was about to do something bone did,
they could say, you know, I don't know if that's
the right way to do it. What about this? They
could give each other that honest, open feedback. Whereas when
they looked at how the acquaintances who were paired up
were working, They were across the board, held back by
lack of communication. They appeared to prefer working alone. They

(20:17):
were less comfortable seeking help, and they resisted pointing out
when a coworker was about to make a mistake. So
it sounds like that friendship helps bolster the work that's
being done. Yeah, I mean, and this makes me think
of Myers Briggs tests, And I would be curious to
see how people who had those strong workplace friendships might

(20:42):
differ in personality traits versus acquaintance type people, because there's
like a little bit of an acquaintance in me, like
my my solo homeschooler self, Um, you know as a
kid has definitely like come along with me as I've aged.
But I also know that I need like the collaboration. Yeah,

(21:03):
and you know matching feminist cough. I know, we do collaborate.
You know, we stop, we collaborate and we listen. We do,
we do. And all of this is backed up again
by that Gallop study that found that workers who said
they had a best friend at work, we're way more

(21:25):
likely to enjoy some pretty cool perks. They were way
more likely to report having received praiser recognition for their
work in the past week. Uh, way more likely to
say that someone at work encourages their development. Uh. They
were thirty five percent more likely to report coworker commitment
to quality basically the positivity and productivities off the charts

(21:46):
for people who say, yes, I have a work spouse
slash BFF slash whatever, because I don't think Gallup used
the term work spouse well and even to the point
this jumped out the fact that they were also seven
percent more likely to report that their companies mission makes
them feel their job is important. Because that kind of commitment,

(22:06):
you know, in that belief in the company bottom line,
you know, is to me would be a hallmark of
an outstanding, outstandingly positive company culture. Yeah. Well, because I mean, hopefully,
with all the factors we've talked about, hopefully this means
that you do have a boss who is open to

(22:27):
letting these work relationships flourish, and you do have opportunities
for that open and honest collaboration where you can bounce
ideas off of each other while you play duck hunt
and eat your sushi. Um, you know, because otherwise I
feel like a lot of creativity can be stifled if
you don't let people have those relationships. I had a
job where, uh, the boss. It was a very small company,

(22:52):
and the boss was super not okay with people talking
with each other. Uh, God help you. If she found
you out of your desk, she was just convinced that
anyone who was having a conversation, even if it was
to blow off steam or you were just literally on
your way back from the bathroom or something, she just
convinced you were like plotting against the company and not working. Yeah,

(23:13):
and so you can imagine like creativity definitely hit a
ceiling at that place. But anyway, we're gonna move on
from just talking about my work history and dive a
little bit more into work spouses when we come right
back from a quick break. So let's talk about the

(23:40):
qualities of a work spouse that differentiates them from just
your average work pal, acquaintance, desk occupier who doesn't talk much. Um.
Sophie Cleman over at Mike wrote about this in novoting that,

(24:01):
according to survey results from vault dot com, of the
respondents from a variety of industries reported having a so
called office husband or office wife, and a separate survey
of only white collar workers found that number was about
double Yeah, that's interesting, So white collar workers. I wonder

(24:23):
if that is affected by the focus on more like
creative work, applied arts jobs. Maybe think office environments that
are a little more loosey goosey. Yeah, I would think that, um,
in more traditional workplaces where there is more of a
career ladder as opposed to service industry jobs UM or

(24:47):
obviously like freelance work, UM, that those might facilitate more
of those kinds of collaborative relationships because you need those
networks in order to get ahead. Yeah that's true. Um.
But yeah, your work spouse is you know, you can
be friends a lot of people at work, but your
work spouse is your person the one you click with

(25:08):
without any romantic spark. And that's the key because well,
as we'll talk about, that is definitely the key. Pam
and Jim, that's right. Well know what I mean. You know, uh, dude,
roommate is a straight guy. I'm a straight girl. But
because we had literally been friends so long and we
had met under circumstances where we were both dating other people, like,

(25:31):
we never had a romantic spark between us. UM, A
lot of people find that hard to believe, but you know,
we really are truly BFFs, and so working together it
was like the perfect work spouse relationship, even though so
many psychologists are like, don't do it. So on a

(25:51):
related note, then this is interesting. So would you have you?
Guys both gotten pressure from people from time to time
of like, why are you all like other? Don't you
like him? Doesn't he like you? Um? Not really because
because best of the people who know both of us
know we would never in a million years date because

(26:12):
we are not each other's type at all. Um. But
at at the job where we worked together, Uh, there
were a couple of women who did not know us
very well. They just knew that we were roommates and
that we literally spent like so much time together, and
they were like, oh, you guys are in love with

(26:34):
each other. We see the way you react to each other,
and it's like, now I first of all, stop it,
stop it. Second of all, I mean, how do you
act with your best friend? You know? Um? So really yeah,
not not very much. There There's never been any of
that pressure really because he and I are so similar
but so different. But that does become you know, a

(26:56):
challenge sometimes if you have like an opposite sex work
spouse relationship where because people even still to this day,
have such a hard time believing that men and women
can be friends, so that more specifically, like straight men

(27:17):
can be legitimately friends with women of really any sexual
orientation without having ulterior motives, which is just insulting on
a Brazilian levels. Um. And I would imagine that that
might be even more scrutinized in the workplace. Yeah, I mean,
and you know, we've seen studies before where and we'll

(27:39):
talk about gender a little bit more in a second,
but you know, we've seen studies that show that men
in cross sex straight friendships, men do interpret some signs
and symptoms a little differently than women do. Um. And
that can lead to a little bit of of getting
butt wrecked basically over a situation, to put it poetically,

(28:01):
to put it super poetically. Um, but I think that
you you can't say it makes for nice headlines to
say definitely one way or the other, but you obviously
can't say anything definitively because people are all different people
of people, people of people. So we've established then that

(28:22):
your work spouse is just like your person, you know, you,
you do have chemistry like Christina's and Meredith on Gray's Anatomy,
although they were also BFFs like I r l so,
But that was the first thing I thought of, was
when Christina and Meredith are like bonding and they established
that they are people. Well, this just brought to mind

(28:42):
the work spouse relationships on The Mindy Project, because Mindy,
played by Mindy Kaling, has like an actual romantic relationship
with one of the doctors. But Morgan, one of the nurses,
is one percent Mendy's work wife, although he is not

(29:05):
Mindy's like work husband, you know what I mean, Like
she's not that too. She doesn't serve him in any
reciprocal kind of way, which adds to the humor of
it because Morgan wants to do anything he can to
make Mindy's life easier, when in fact, I would argue,
and looking forward to hearing from Mindy Project fans on this,
I would argue that she she has another work husband,

(29:30):
Peter Prentiss, who's like the charming, funnier, like another doctor,
so it's not like the subordinate level that Morgan is on. Well,
I can't confirm or deny because I've never seen it.
But I would argue that this sounds a lot like
ZEP with Selina Meyer and Gary. Yes, Gary without a doubt.
And granted they had that moment in the closet where

(29:53):
they let each other have it, Gary finally stood up
for himself. I think that was last season or two
seasons ago, but yeah, absolutely. Gary is devoted to Julia
Louis Dreyfuss's Selena Meyer, and she just walks all over him.
But they are both aware that like she would not
be able to succeed at life without Gary whispering in
her ear. Gary might be my all time favorite work wife.

(30:17):
He's just the best, um Because one thing, one thing
Gary Scott you know that other work spouses have is
understanding the big picture, you know. I mean, like Gary
is always anticipating what Selina is going to need, and
it also helps that he has his bag well. Yeah,

(30:41):
and and so one of the key aspects to someone
being a work spouse versus a casual acquaintance is understanding
that big picture. You know a lot, obviously about your
work spouse's professional situation, their hopes, their dreams, their failures,
their successes, um, But you also know a lot about
their personal life, and so you know, when he or

(31:03):
she walks in and seems upset or happy, you have
an idea of what's going on. Because you do you
see the whole picture. There's also that because you know
so much about that person's life and their ups and
downs and everything, there's so much trust that has to
happen there because you can't just be shooting your mouth
off about the boss or another coworker that you don't like,

(31:26):
or you know, if you have a crush on someone
at work, or if something's going wrong at home. You
can't just be shooting your mouth off about all that
stuff to just anybody. And so you know, when you
combine all this stuff, you get a pretty mega, supportive,
amazing friend. And not surprisingly, there are plenty of benefits
associated to having a work spouse. Ron Friedman over at

(31:50):
The Cut wrote about some research on this in December
which found that having a work spouse is correlated with
getting sick less off the suffering fewer accidents, changing jobs
less often, and having more satisfied customers. Yeah, and and again,
you because you're committed to this person, and your relationship

(32:13):
with this person makes you happier, You don't want to
let them down, so there's more on the line. Your
laziness or your incompetence or your failure doesn't mean you've
only let yourself down or your boss down, but it
also means you're letting your work spouse down. And you
don't want to do that because you're so committed. And
Freeman also cited research that should just how important to

(32:33):
work spouses during those really stressful times at work. People
who believe that their coworkers will help them during times
of stress and challenge are more likely to overcome that
stress and challenge to succeed no matter what's going on
at work. They're more able to quickly integrate and adapt
to things going on at work, and they report better

(32:56):
stress management. So just knowing that you have that person
who gets your person at work, it reduces your stress
a little bit because you can just exchange that look
and be like, I know, girl, I hear you loud
and clear. And there have been so many meetings you
and I have been in together, large group meetings where

(33:17):
we might be sitting across the table from each other
and but just talking, talking loud and clear, without saying
a word, talking with those eyeball um and you all
know Caroline has very expressive eyebrows. So um. But this
this next one though, is so crucial. I feel like
if you are managing both, you know, a work spouse

(33:39):
relationship and a romantic relationship on the side, because one
of the big benefits in terms of how your work
spouse can make your personal life better is compartmentalizing your
the minutia of your job angst and all of the
projects that you have to do you and all of

(34:00):
that stress. If you can just compartmentalize it to your
work spouse, you don't take it all home. Yeah, And
I mean I I've always taken a lot home anyway.
I mean, like, you know, your your significant other is
your significant other, so you're going to talk to that person.
But it doesn't It kind of saves your your ESSO

(34:23):
from having to sit across the table from you a
dinner as you're like, no, okay, we'll see Betty Sue
is a jerk because she does this thing, and then
you know, Jim over here he does this thing, and
so but then they can't you know, like that, don't
don't stress other people out with like the super intimate
details of how everyone is connected at work like maybe
hit the high points well. And to that point, I

(34:46):
am real grateful that my husband did a very kind
hearted job. He was very gentle with me with this
of just alerting me that I talk I talk about
work a lot. I'll go through phases where yeah, it
work is life. I mean I shoot videos in my home.

(35:08):
It is literally there all the time. Um. And he's
been so helpful and patient and kind with helping me
kind of separate those two worlds as much as I can,
because I do want to be cognizant of what's going
on with his work life. Does he have space to
talk to me about stuff that's annoying him? And he

(35:30):
even surprised me once when well he surprised me so
many times, but one time I was talking uh about
something at work making me upset, um, and I was like, well,
I mean, what's going on? What are you mad about?
You know, don't you have any isn't something terrible? You know?
Your job? And he was like yeah, but I just don't.

(35:54):
I just want like to talk about that. He's like,
I just don't. He was like, I don't want to
even think about that when I'm home. Boyfriend, dog is
the same, like, how do you do that? Just leave
it at the office. Well, see, the complicating factor with
boyfriend dog is that he works at home. Um so
I'm I kind of witness firsthand when something is going south.
But he tends to do the same thing of like

(36:15):
I just don't want to talk about it because it
just gets my blood pressure up. You know. That's not
to say he never like blows up, you know, with
work stress or whatever, but he tends to just be like,
you know, I'll just now I'm focused on, you know,
making dinner, or now I'm focused on watching TV, or
now I'm focused on hanging out rather than work. I
can't even and he sees it all over my face

(36:35):
because I can't. I literally, like getting ready to come
into work today. I was blowing through the house like
really fast and like trying to get ready because I
was doing a million different things, and he just saw
my face and he's like, this isn't You're just in
work land already, aren't you. Yeah, I'm sorry, I can't.
I'll be. I mean, I could, I need to, but

(36:55):
you know, yeah, I should have just come and put
it all on you. That's what I'm here for. Caroline
that's what a podcast is for. I'm not heavy, I'm
your sister. But so so you have that uh, that
personal life benefit for sure. Um, although yeah you should

(37:17):
also you should be able to talk talk to your
significant other if something is going wrong at work. I
shouldn't only have to speak of positive things. Um. But
then you also have the benefits of future plans and
future success because, as Adam Grant noted, of startups emerged

(37:38):
through founders friendships and where do we meet people we
know we like? And no will work hard at the bar?
Caroline just kidding? School and work Yeah at TJ Max
TJ Max. Um, hey girl, you look like you can
find a deal. Are you a Max any staff? Let's

(38:00):
start to start up. But you know, we've painted a
pretty rosy picture of how important a work spouse is.
But there are a couple downsides if you're not being
vigilant about your work relationships in general. And one thing
we pointed out earlier in that if you are work
spouses with someone who is known for something, maybe for

(38:25):
being super negative or super hilarious or super amazing, like,
all of these things are going to reflect on you,
whether it's positive or negative. So watch out if your
work spouse is known for being like the office negative Nancy. Yeah,
and I have no research to back this up and
don't know whether there is any or not. But well,

(38:48):
and I wonder Caroline, if that risk is greater for um,
same sex work spouses, because something that I have noticed
and somewhat experienced in workplaces is that, especially if you

(39:08):
have a male boss, but female bosses do this too,
and your work wife is a fellow lady, you're like
mutual workwives. You gotta work workplace boss and marriage going on.
That it's almost as if the boss sees you as
just one person. Yeah, you know, and it doesn't help

(39:30):
sometimes that I don't know, maybe you both have dark hair,
you're you're kind of on the pail and the spectrum.
I'm talking a little bit about us, yes, um, because
it's uh, and it hasn't been a negative for us,
because I mean, we're you know, charming work wives. Hopefully

(39:50):
we get spicy sometimes as does everyone. Um, but there
are there have been those moments where it's like it's
to become and like we know we're we are still individual,
individual people. Yeah, um remember that. Yeah, I and I
don't know either. I did not come across anything that

(40:13):
indicates whether that's true across the board. But I can
definitely see I can definitely see what you're talking about,
you know, through personal research. Um, there's also the idea
of of missing out. You know, when your work besties
with someone, there's almost that feeling of like, well, why
do I have to talk to anyone else? You know,
it was definitely like that at my old job with

(40:33):
my work spouses. Does that make me a work big
a missed? Because they were both men anyway, you know,
it's like, well, I don't I don't have to mess
with like the people who really bug you. There was
less than sentive for me to try to cross that bridge,
build a bridge, cross a bridge, send up a flare,
break out of my silo because I had work spouses

(40:56):
and they were super funny and supportive and my kind
of people. Yeah. Well, and I would bet that one's
desire to branch out beyond their spouse silo directly correlates
to how long they see themselves in that job, true,
you know, and how much they respect and value the

(41:18):
UM the company itself. Yeah. So if I decide I
need to launch a career and like infomercials like I'm
gonna need to go like probably meet an infomercial like
wife work wife or something, and that makes me sad,
and make sure it's the makeup person A little chip
I learned from a little show. We also hinted earlier

(41:41):
at the complications that can come when your co workers
are jealous of your relationship, or just the complications that
can come out of your work spouse being on a
different level higher or lower. Because is it really an
egalitarian work spousitude ship thing if someone's a manager and
someone's a subordinate. Yeah, And speaking of coworkers, will they
look at that and say, well, of course, Virginia just

(42:05):
got a raise because she's friends with Linda. Linda's the boss,
by the way. Um, and you know the the massive
spouse woe it has to do with your real spouse. Yeah.
I feel like this is the work spouse elephant in
the room, which is the concern that your work spouse

(42:31):
overshadows your spouse spouse. Yeah. So there's this guy, Willard F.
Harley Jr. Who I swear to God is quoted in
like every work spouse article on the internet. But he's
a psychologist and marriage counselor, and he is majorly concerned
with the way that you are interacting with your sexual
orientation matching work spouse. So he wouldn't be as worried

(42:52):
about like Matt and me like that school, or you
and me, but he'd be being Matt, Matt being a
gay dude, you being a straight lady. Uh. He gets
really worried though, especially when it comes to like straight
dudes and straight women hanging out, because he has seen
firsthand as a marriage counselor. The he says, thousands. I

(43:15):
don't know, but he he said, he's seen thousands of
people who have come to him after they've had those
close work relationships evolve into an affair because, as he
points out, like your work spouse. You call that person
a work spouse for a reason. It's a relationship that
meets a lot of needs. Like we've said, it's built
on trust. You probably share a lot of interests. They

(43:36):
get you there, your person, you click, You share a
sense of humor, and you probably complain about the same
things like well, if you throw like work travel into
the mix or like work cocktail parties, watch out. Harley's
guidelines are all about like do not spill your marriage
problems to your work, your opposite or your sexual orientation

(43:57):
matching work spouse. Don't be spilling marriage was because that
makes it sound like the doors open. Don't get drunk together,
don't travel alone together. Maintain those boundaries, Talk about your
spouse in a positive way. Make sure that your spouse,
your real life spouse, is included in things so that
he or she does not feel excluded, because you don't

(44:18):
want to make it seem like you have some sort
of secret, clandestine relationship going on. Well, and in terms
of not spelling your marriage problems to someone you might
potentially want to have sex with, because that's basically what
the whole like UH sexual orientation matching is. UM. I

(44:39):
think it's is good advice all around, whether you're in
a work situation or not, because it's like, just be
careful if you are complaining about like if you hear
yourself complaining about the person that you are with to
someone who could, by contrast, start to look a little

(44:59):
shinier in your eyes, if that makes sense. Yeah, is
anybody out there watching UH Man Seeking Woman. It's on
f x X. It's on like one of the sub
f X channels. And there's literally a whole episode about
that where there's this like beautiful charming girl at work
and she is close friends with the lead guy and
he's just waiting, he's just waiting to slip in there.

(45:23):
And she starts complaining about her boyfriend, who turns out
to literally be Jesus uh played by Fred Armison, which
is ironic. Um. And she complains about him and he's like,
I've got a shot and he goes for it and
falls on his face. It's the same thing like, just
don't don't leave the goal unintended. Yeah, yeah, I mean,
and that's that also requires you as the complainer. I

(45:47):
think maybe checking yourself, yeah, checking your motivations, what's going on,
Maybe considering whether there is someone who would be healthier
to talk to, yeah, or even just like a friend
who might not have any vested interests at all. Um.
I like that this episode just became us giving like
marriage advice. You're welcome, so expect your bill in the

(46:11):
mail anytime, thanks to stamps dot Com. But alright, so
we have to get into gender, right. I mean, we're
sminty and we've kind of danced around the whole gender topic. Uh,
this is coming from a couple of different sources psychology today,
the Comparably organization European Business Review. But work friendships tend
to have a couple different types of rewards. You've got

(46:32):
the socio emotional rewards, which is basically you're sharing pleasure
in experiences, and then instrumental rewards, which have to do
with exchanging favors. And again we're going to talk in
like pretty stereotypical broadbrush terms, but for the most part,
women are more likely to enjoy the socio emotional rewards

(46:53):
of forming work friendships, while men are more likely to
participate in those instrumental reward friendships. And UH to break
this down, a little bit of study done by comparably
asked users in text specifically whether they had a mentor
and whether they had a best friend at work, and
women were way more likely at all levels of the

(47:13):
job to say, yes, I have a mentor, I've formed
a relationship with someone in that regard, and yes I
have a best friend at work. And that has a
lot to do with the way that researchers say women
form friendships with one another. So Lisa Brateman, who's a psychotherapist,
told Refinery twenty nine that women are more likely to

(47:37):
share personal details at work, which equates to a whole
load of lady intimacy basically, and that is basically the
foundation of friendship, right You're sharing stuff about yourself and
that is definitely a quick way to form a work friendship,
especially a work best friendship. And because women are more
likely to do this than men are, apparently, that makes

(47:59):
that stead result makes sense that women are therefore more
likely to have a bestie at work or a mentor
that they formed a close relationship with. Well, and we're
also likelier to seek that kind of emotional support when
we are stressed at work, and to both receive and
provide more emotional social support than men in times of

(48:20):
work related unhappiness or distressed And along those same lines,
women tend to invest more in maintaining those friendships, calling
friends regularly, meeting more frequently, always b G, chatting the
gifts back and forth. Yeah, and it's the thing that
you said about supporting each other being more likely to

(48:43):
support each other in stressful times at work. That ties
back to the stuff we mentioned earlier about how those
work spouse ships are based on a huge amount of trust.
You know and how your work satisfaction and therefore your
work productivity is based on knowing that you have someone
behind you who's going to support you. You know that
you have someone to talk to, someone who's gonna believe

(49:05):
what you're saying and support what you're doing. But when
it comes to men at work, again disclaimer, this is
all very general, but when it comes to men at
work generally, their friendships can be described as those instrumental
or transactional friendships. They tend to be organized around those
shared interests and activities or the exchange of tangible rewards

(49:27):
and favors, and be action oriented rather than person oriented. Hence,
everybody's going out to play golf or whatever, or you
go to the box of the football game, yeah yeah,
or whatever the equivalent is. You guys are all playing
duck Hunt together. That's just gonna keep it's the duck
Hunt is the mascot of this episode. I'm fine with that.

(49:50):
Or sushi just a slab a sushi and one recent
study that I'm like, uh okay. One recent study said
that it's possible to male coworkers go out drinking together
more because it lowers all of their like pent up
masculine emotions. And I have to raise an eyebrow at
that because that sounds very like I don't know. I

(50:10):
went out drinking with co workers quite a bit and
it was always mixed gender groups. Yeah, just jobs, blowoff team.
I'm curious what exact inhibitions they're referring to. I think
they're referring to those like sis you emotional oh, of
getting beyond the like getting beyond like the let's stats

(50:33):
to being like you know what, I'm actually pretty vulnerable
and I enjoy art and joy art, and also I'm
scared about where my career is going. And I was
really interested too in this this socio economic note about
male work friendships. Uh. This one study cited was saying
that working class or blue collar guys at work tend

(50:56):
to express that transactional nature of French it with material
goods and services, like hey, I'll exchange wrenches with you.
They're exchanging wrenches. That's actually symbol of marriage in some societies. Uh.
While middle class or white collar dudes were more likely

(51:17):
to share those leisure activities like going golfing or going
to a baseball game. But I want to go back
to one thing before we UM start to wrap up
in terms of the finding that work, women's work friendships
tend to center around the socio emotional rewards, just having

(51:38):
the pleasure and the shared experiences, whereas men's work relationships
UM are more favor based. You kind of go out
to get ahead. And I think that I've brought this
exact same scenario up on a previous podcast, UM, but
clearly it's just stuck in my mind, UM, because it
reminds me of a tweet that we received a while

(52:02):
back from a young woman who wants to get ahead
and socialize, but she can't go out for drinks because
it's all guys at her office and they never directly
invite her, and she feels it feels like she can't

(52:22):
go because she would, you know, like kill the all
guy vibe. UM. So I wonder if it is so
much of his and hers, like, oh, we just saw this,
you know, our socio rewards, or is that the ceiling
is that like all we can really access. Yeah, I

(52:44):
mean I've definitely heard of women like taking golf lessons
so that they can participate in the upper management boys club,
that is, the golf outings where business is discussed on
on the green at Uh, that's a really good point. Yeah,
I mean it could be like, yeah, it could be

(53:05):
that women genuinely are appreciating these types of relationships and
men are appreciating those types of relationships. But if you
can't even get an invite to one or the other, right,
because that kind of after hours networking is where a
lot of promotions come from. And if you can't even

(53:27):
get in the bar, or if you do get in
the bar, it's really awkward because you have to play
the whole like, oh my god, you guys are here. Oh,
it's so weird. I'm here too. I alone, not because
I'm sad um, I've just wanted Oh can I join you?
You know, And your palms are sweating, So the glass
slips out of your hand and it's just a disaster
shatter and you cut your leg and you've got to

(53:47):
go to the hospital and then you miss work and
then they fire you. See see what networking brings you.
That's what networking felt like when I was unemployed. It's true.
But all that to say that I hope that workplaces
become more just cognizant of those unnecessary hang ups that

(54:09):
we have and really prejudices toward men and women or
people who match sexual orientations. As Dr Harvey put it,
um of those people forming relationships like going to one
on one lunch together, going out for drinks one on
one if they need to, because I think, yeah, like
in group settings, totally fine, not a big deal. But

(54:31):
as soon as you have after hours time with your
work husband and suddenly eyebrowser race. Yeah. But hopefully if
you have formed if if you are a straight lady
and a straight guy, um, I mean hopefully you've you
followed the guidelines for work spouse ship and you guys

(54:54):
do have a very open, honest relationship and your significant
others and your co workers are aware that like, no,
nothing's good went on, and that it doesn't become a
situation where everything is blown out of proportion because people
are just gossiping about you, like look at look at
them spending all of that time together. And if you
are consistently hanging out outside of work hours with with

(55:16):
that work spouse, when you also have a spouse, that
might be a good idea to just make sure that
the spouse so together. Just just ease everyone's minds. Um,
But how do you even get to that point. You know,
how how do you do you get down on one?
Like to get to get a work spouse, do I

(55:37):
need to go get a ring down one, save up
two months salary. You get a little twist tie, you
put it on the pointer finger. Um, that's that's the
work spouse finger. Yeah. Um. Well, researchers basically across the
board are like, you know, there are certain ways that friendships,

(55:58):
no matter what the setting, are formed. Here's a quick guide.
I love it, like become work spouses in forty five
minutes and less. And that's basically to be vulnerable, because
if you want to form a closed bestie ship or
friendship at work, you're not going to get there by
just talking about the weather. So if you like somebody
at work and you think you guys could be good friends,

(56:20):
allies could trust each other and help each other. Um,
it's swapping those personal stories. It's work spouse ships are
formed on the basis of knowing so much about each
other and still supporting each other. It's kind of like
it all ties in back to uh Ann Friedman's shine
theory about supporting your powerful besties and not being intimidated

(56:41):
by them and Robert Epstein, who's at the American Institute
for Behavioral Research and Technology, says, quote, vulnerability is the
key to emotional bonding, without which relationships tend to feel
superficial and meaningless. That doesn't mean you need to be
talking about all your issues like at work, in front
of everyone. But when you do have those closer one

(57:01):
on one relationships, don't be afraid to be vulnerable. Yeah, yeah,
be vulnerable without over sharing, right, you know, maybe hold
off on talking about your romantic relationships and also be
mindful of personal space. Maybe you're hopeful work spouse to

(57:23):
be you know, doesn't need to know about your menstrual
cycle yet yet. Yeah, we'll ease that in. And then
of course avoid gossip at first when you start, when
you're embarking on a new work marriage, because as we
discussed about my earlier about my super awful coworker at

(57:44):
my first job, that negativity just breeds more negativity. And
if people get the impression that they can't trust you too,
because all you're gonna do is talk smack about them
behind their backs. Like, what's the point of having a
work spouse if everybody else hates you? Yeah? Yeah, you
need to just find another job, I think at that point. Yeah,
if all you can do is literally say horrible things

(58:07):
about each other or other people at work, that probably
just means you're unhappy in your job, go do something else. Yeah, well,
and that does get us to one thing that we
haven't directly addressed, which is the work spouse divorce, you know,
because yeah, you can. Just like friendships can get toxic
and you gotta let them go, similar thing can happen,

(58:30):
especially in the workplace, because I mean, you have you've
got a lot more on the line. So I'm curious
to hear from listeners who have work spouses and if
anyone is willing to share with us going through kind
of the work spouse divorce. You know, did you finally
have to call it or was it like a work

(58:52):
spouse slow fade and if you get a new job
and the friendship didn't continue. All these relationships are so
like it seems so sterile, you know, from the outside,
but um, when you really start paying attention to them,
I'm full of matching feminist mugs. They are they are,
and lots of games of duck hunt and platters of

(59:14):
sushi when they're at their best, you know, UM, so
please share all your work wife, work, husband, work spouse
do you and also do you have a preferred UH
title for that? Do you do not call your person
your your work spouse? UM? Let us know all the dats.

(59:34):
Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com is our
email address. You can also tweet us at mom Stuff
podcast or messages on Facebook. And we've got a couple
of messages to share with you right now. Well, I've
got a message here from a drill from our episode

(59:55):
where we talked to Anne Marie Slaughter about caregiving. She says,
this is an extremely important topic and I'm so glad
that it's finally being brought to the forefront. Up until recently,
I never fully appreciated how important having quality, free childcare
has been to my own success. I got pregnant my
sophomore year of college. For the first year of my
son's life, it was a struggle trying to figure out

(01:00:17):
how to work, go to school, and pay for daycare.
I remember having to choose between staying home with a
sick one year old and going to work. I also
remember being fired because of choosing to stay home with
my sick one year old. But my story does have
a happy ending. When my son was too I took
a job working at a daycare. The pace sucked, but

(01:00:37):
he could go to daycare for free, and that was
a tremendous help. I was able to save my money
and spend it on important things like rent and food.
Having childcare also allowed me to finish my undergraduate degree,
and it also helped me to go on to complete
my masters as well. I owe a lot of my
success to having free childcare. If it were not for that,
I do not know where my son and I would be.

(01:01:00):
No one should ever have to choose between something basically
feeding your family or affording their care, Yet sadly this happens.
Every day care is a basic human right that everyone
should have access to, and I agree. Here here thanks
for your letter. Well, I have a letter here from
Amelia who right. First, I love your work and fierce feminism.

(01:01:21):
I've learned quite a few new things from your podcast
and listening is always a treat. Well, thank you, Amelia. Secondly,
the recent episode with Anne Marie Slaughter really hit home
for me. I'm thirty two and stuck between having a
baby and going to grad school. I have so many
questions and self doubts about any avenue I pursue. Do
I had to grad school knowing I'll be thirty six

(01:01:41):
when I have my first baby. Do I put off
grad school so I can utilize my young ish eggs,
or do I strap on my cape and do both
at the same time. All my choices are daunting, and
most professional women I've asked don't have any answers either.
I have asked several of my professors who have small
children what they suggest, and I've heard everything from just

(01:02:03):
have a baby now you're not getting any younger too,
there's really no good time to have kids. The worst
and most memorable piece of advice I got was, well,
at least your fiance has done with his degree. What
the heck is it girl supposed to say to that? So,
while your interview with miss Slaughter did not necessarily assuage
any of my worries, I am relieved to know that

(01:02:24):
there are strong women willing to have these conversations and
fight for a level of equality which is long overdue.
While things may not change over night, I'm hopeful that
our generation may be the last to know this inequality.
Anne Marie Slaughter is a badass, and so are you
please keep up the great work. Well, you know what, Amelia,
you're a bad us as well. And those are such

(01:02:47):
daunting questions that I have a feeling. Uh, so many
listeners can relate to. As a woman in my thirties,
I think I think similar things as well. Um, honestly,
it's just just weird having ovaries sometimes just know when
they're sitting in there. Yeah, yeah, that's true. Um, but yeah,

(01:03:08):
I also am am really excited that a Marie Slaughter, Hi,
gen Poo and other amazing people are working for that
equality that we all need. So with that, keep sending
your letters. Mom. Stuff at how stuff works dot com
is our email address and for links to all of
our social media as well as all of our blogs, videos,
and podcasts with our sources so you can learn more

(01:03:32):
about work wives. Head on over to stuff Mom Never
Told You dot com for more on this and thousands
of other topics. Does it how stuff works dot com