Uber Privilege

Uber, AirBnb and others are reshaping how we work, but they leave loopholes to discrimination and abuse. Cristen and Caroline look at sharing economy privilege and why collaborative consumption leaves out the people who most need its services.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey friends, Christen here with a quick correction. In this episode,
I share a story about a girlfriend of mine who
got harassed in an uber. But in this episode I
say it was a lift, but in fact I fact
checked the story with my friend and she said it
was in fact an uber, not a lift. And the
quote it was intense, but I got two weeks of

(00:23):
half off rides, so worth it. Dot dot dot sad
face emoji. Now onto the show. Welcome to stuff Mom
Never told you From how stupports dot com. Hello and
welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline, and

(00:45):
today we are talking about Uber, Lift, past Grabbit, Instacart,
et cetera, all of these new app based companies that
comprise the sharing or gig economy as it's also known as. Yes,
I gotta say I love a lot of these apps.

(01:08):
They make life easier. I use instacrt like once a week,
probably um because who has to have to go to
the grocery store. This episode is not brought to you
by any of these companies, I assure you, but I
am curious has it replaced your grocery shopping? For the
last part, my husband is currently obsessed with Uber Eats,
which means we are not grocery shopping as much as

(01:29):
we should be. Yeah. Well, so I've been sick and
my boyfriend has been away working, and so there's been
really no incentive for me to like cook a big
dinner because I just don't have the appetite for it.
So I've been using uber eats, and I gotta tell you,
I was actually disappointed because not in uber eats. But
I pulled up my Caviare app the other night, which

(01:51):
is another meal delivery service. They'll pick it up from
a restaurant. They are no longer in Atlanta. Really, Yeah,
so I guess I have to delete Caviare from my phone. Um,
but I definitely have been relying on Uber eats an
insta cart quite a bit. I actually met my Instacrt
driver at the door the other day, said thank you

(02:13):
so much. You don't realize how much you're saving a
really sick person as she hands me bags of chicken
noodle soup, thailan all colden sinus saltine crackers. Well, this
reminds me too of a Women in Tech breakfast that
I went to a while back, where this panel was
going around giving their just go to advice for essentially

(02:37):
making your life easier if you're an ambitious woman in
tech or really anywhere, and one of the oldest women
on the panel who also has kids, who is h
v i P in her sector, set outsource everything that
you can, and a lot of that relies on the
sharing economy. I was actually talking to a girlfriend last

(02:59):
night who is working in a really demanding job and
she has started outsourcing her house cleaning via it's not
task grab it, but it's something similar. It might be
through handy um. And she talked about how it's so
worth the money because of just the any cleaning related
tension that might be in the house between her and

(03:20):
her husband. It's just taken care of now. Side note
for your friend, she is brilliant because this is something
I've literally discussed in therapy, and my therapist has encouraged
my boyfriend and me, who lived together, um too ethically
higher uh professional or some type of contractor to come

(03:41):
in and clean at least once a month. And of course,
like we don't necessarily have the time or the money,
and I also have that guilt of like I've at
least got to pick the house up first. I feel
the same way because the thing is and and and
boyfriend dog, you know, with with him being in the
studio and me having been sick and whatever, like, we
haven't been able to clean the house and it both

(04:04):
stresses us out to the max. But the thing is,
we still just have so much stuff on the floor.
So he was like, you know, while you're not feeling
well and I'm at work, like, why don't we use
one of those apps to like have someone come over
and clean. And I was like, I'm not having a
stranger come in this house to pick up when there's

(04:26):
so much on the floor that they can't even like
start the vacuum right, Like I at least need to
put some crap in the attic before I have somebody
come over. But then I also have the fear of
all of these horror stories I've heard about, like the
handyman or cleaner comes over and like extorts you for
money or like won't leave. I used I won't tell

(04:48):
you the app. I don't want to upset anyone. Um,
I used one of those apps to have a handyman
come over. I needed the driveway and the backpack, I
needed like everything around my house pressure washed because we
have all sorts of gross stuff everywhere on the driveway.
And uh bless his heart that God did not know
how to use the pressure washer. I had to go out.

(05:10):
I wasted like two hours that day like helping him
run the pressure washer. So I wasted a lot of
time and money. And so I don't think I will ever.
I don't think I'll ever use like one of those
handyman apps again, but potentially a house cleaner I would.
So the how these apps and the sharing economy can
backfire both on the user and the employee is going

(05:36):
to be the focus of this conversation UM. And beyond
the potential of people who are not qualified being hired
to do these jobs, there is a physical risk factor
that UM is becoming more and more of a concern
a topic of conversation. For instance, when I was in

(05:59):
New Yorker couple weeks ago, I was at a girlfriend's
apartment and talking about heading back to the airport, and
I was saying that I always use lift. I prefer
them that drivers get a larger cut um than they
do through Uber, so I try to support them with
that and usually they're cheaper. And she said, oh, yeah, Well,

(06:23):
I I can ride for free on left for a
really long time. And I asked why, of course, and
she said, well, um, ever since a driver locked me
in the car and wouldn't let me out until I
gave him my phone number, they're giving me free rides
left and right. And I'm not saying this to try

(06:45):
to implicate lift in any way, shape or form um,
but she also said it so casually and so excitedly
of like, oh yeah, I get to ride around for free.
This is kind of amazing. But I was like, wait,
let's go, let's go back. Uh was that not terrifying?
And She's like, oh yeah, oh yeah. She's also very
tough though, you know, she's like she's got that you know,
New York tough thing. And I was trying to kind

(07:06):
of play it off, but yeah, there's the there's there's
also the risk involved with the sharing economy, and also too,
that's one reason why we're seeing not only in the
US but abroad the rise of women only taxi companies. Yeah.
I mean, I think I think all the time about

(07:27):
also being in New York a couple of months ago
and getting into the front seat of an uber just wasted. Um,
we might have gone out for drinks with some listeners.
Those listeners might have been incredibly generous with buying us drinks.
In anyway, you guys gotta be wasted. And I get
in this Uber and I'm like arguing in a good

(07:49):
natured way. The driver was very nice, but I'm like
arguing with him about Beyonce's feminism because he was like
basically the whole line of like Beyonce can't be a
feminist because she doesn't wear pants, and like she's she's
a disgrace to women in pop You should listen to
Adele instead. Nothing against Adele, but I like think back
to that and it's like anything could happen, you know,

(08:11):
And I mean that's true of life in general, and
true of traditional cab drivers. Yeah, but like there is
that that thing of like, hey, you are just trusting
that this person will get you to your destination safely,
not touch you or do anything to harm or intimidate you,
and then unlock the car and let you out when
you get to your destination. Well, and that's the thing.

(08:32):
There are obviously those very real and legitimate safety concerns
that these companies like Uber, Left, etcetera. Are needing to
be more accountable too. But then also there is on
the back end of it the concern for how equitable
these situations are for the people who are taking these gigs.

(08:57):
Who are you know, doing these side hustles or they
might be there a hustles because the sharing economy has
grown so much and it's worth so much that there's
the risk that I mean even at this point, we're
trying to gigify so much that we are not doing
it in a very ethical way. So just to put

(09:18):
some numbers though around why uh this is so bright
and shiny for Silicon Valley investors. So according to data
from Price Waterhouse Coopers, UH, the sharing economy global revenue
could grow from roughly fifteen billion today to three billion.

(09:41):
That is not so Obviously we got a gold mine
and people are russian to grab as much of it
as they can, and they're very popular. We just talked
about all of these apps and outsourcing that we're doing
for our day to day lives. The Pure Research Center
in sixteen found that seven new two percent of Americans

(10:01):
have used a shared or on demand service. Yeah, and
I mean when you look at the breakdown of who
the workers are, a lot of them, most of them
are between eighteen and thirty four versus just a third
of the general workforce being between eighteen and thirty four.
The majority probably because of their age and our generation

(10:24):
tends to have more college degrees. The majority of the
gig economy workers do have at least some college experience,
and most use their gig as a supplementary income, not
as their main income. And they're also way likelier to
be male, especially if they are an Uber driver. Um.
Just n of Uber drivers or women versus Lift, which

(10:48):
maybe this is why I'm so into Lift even after
my friends horror story. Lift uh employees female drivers and
also has a lot more female passengers like myself, and
also employs a leadership team that's half women. Yeah. I
thought that was interesting too. Yeah I, um, I might

(11:11):
be using Lift more often now anyway. Um. There's also
the the interesting gender breakdown that economists have commented on
that men are more likely to do the higher paid
gig economy work like being a handyman, like driving for
Uber doing all of this stuff, versus women who tend
to and of course this is all broad brush stuff,

(11:33):
but tend to do more house cleaning work, more of
the light work quote unquote work on Etsy. Etsy is
of course largely women. It's something like what like six
percent women. That is exactly the percent. I just I
literally pulled that out of my head. Um, maybe because
I read it last night. Um. And of course to that,

(11:54):
Etsy says, Listen, not everybody's goal is to make a
million dollars working in this gig economy. But I do
think that that's important to keep kind of in the
back of your mind when you're looking at who's employed
doing what work, and you know, without any sort of
health insurance or benefits. And on the flip side of that,
if we look at the users, they tend to be younger,

(12:15):
no surprise, we tend to have college degrees, but might
be on a financially shaky ground. I know that one
reason why myself and a lot of my friends use
uber and lyft is because it's so much cheaper than
getting a cab. And also we're paying for d U
I well, exactly well, and also we live in Atlanta
and unless you are at the airport, cabs kind of

(12:35):
don't exist around here. Um. So that brings up this
socio economic divide that pure research also highlighted yeah. So
you know, we mentioned a second ago that oh my god,
so many Americans use ride sharing, use food delivery, use
all of these sharing economy apps. But Pew found that

(13:00):
just ten percent of people who live in homes with
earnings below thirty thousand dollars have booked trips with ride
hailing companies, for instance, and nearly fifty of these people
aren't familiar with them at all. And when you move
from ride sharing to a platform like Airbnb, only four
percent of Americans at that earning point have used those

(13:22):
home sharing or home rental platforms, while sixty percent of
people with earnings below thirty thousand as their whole household
number don't even know about them at all. Oh yeah,
I mean all this stuff is to me like very
much a luxury. I mean it's it's not You're not
spending a ton of money necessarily at one time, unless

(13:44):
we go real bonkers on uber reads, which ha happened before.
But I mean it's still like going out and getting
a manicure rather than painting your nails at home, you know,
exactly exactly. And if you are pinching every penny, counting
every dollar, like, you're not gonna want to pay the
whatever seven nine insta cart fee to get your groceries

(14:05):
delivered within the very next hour, which I do a
lot actually because I want my chicken little soup. But
you know, I mean, and I'm I'm I'm saying this
in jest, because of course that's an incredibly privileged thing
to be able to say, to not only be aware
of the app and use the app, but also pay

(14:25):
the extra money to get it delivered as fast as possible. Absolutely. Um.
But there was also this issue of inclusivity, and here's
kind of the twisted things. So there's this paper that
came from Business for Social Responsibility that was really pointing
to inclusivity as a major benefit for both share economy

(14:47):
workers and customers, and one of their consultants said, quote,
the sharing economy offers a way for people to act
more independently and to democratize things. Okay, I can see
how you would come to that conclusion. Uh, it is
a more human business model than the old economy with
corporations and customers. And you know what, ideally, yes, absolutely, um,

(15:14):
they're also benefits for the companies when you have more
people who can participate in the sharing economy. Companies are
going to benefit from untapped revenue i e. User acquisition,
and a more intentional focus on inclusion could strengthen companies
contributions to communities and build trust with governments seeking to

(15:37):
regulate them. So this all sounds so great, It sounds
so great, so great, um, and you know there is
a benefit. There can be a really great benefit for
marginalized or underserved communities when you have things like ride
sharing apps, and that inclusivity could help connect people to

(15:58):
goods and services that maybe are out of reach otherwise.
You know, it could uh dismantle some of those barriers
that people face to ownership. For instance, if they're able
to like use zip car, where they can you know,
share a car essentially to get from their you know,
train station to wherever they're going. Um. There was a

(16:18):
New York University study on the sharing economy impact that
was based on data from get Around, which is a
car sharing service kind of like a zip car. UM.
They found that ride sharing had a disproportionately positive effect
on lower income consumers because ownership is a barrier to consumption.
So if people are allowed and able to consume, that's

(16:41):
a boon to companies who are trying to make money,
but it's also a boon for people in communities who
are just trying to get places. Uber did a study
in l A and they found that their uber x
rides are available in twenty one low income neighborhoods at
a lower price than taxis, and that they arrive in
less than half the time. And there have been other

(17:01):
studies that have shown that telephone dispatch taxi services in
poor urban neighborhoods, for instance, are consistently slower and less
reliable than taxi services and wealthier communities. And I remember,
I mean this was before Uber and left, but I
remember being at a birthday party years ago now and
everybody was just so drunk and um, we literally tried

(17:26):
to call a cab, but it just we kept getting
a busy signal, busy signal. When we finally got through,
they were like, yeah, it's gonna be about two hours. Um,
it was already like one in the morning. Uh. So
our friend who had just had and we were like downtown,
Uh in Augusta. And our friend who has mistake there

(17:47):
no kidding, uh. And our friend who had just had
a lot less to drink than the rest of us
but was not sober was the one who like slowly
and carefully drove us home. Yeah mean obviously, like these
are these are good services, Like we can use these
kinds of things their positives. Yeah, and I mean according

(18:11):
to a Pew survey, I mean Pews all over this
of rides sharing users in general feel that these services
are less likely to discriminate against people based on their
race or appearance than taxis are. Will come back to
that one in a little bit, but I mean this
is important because access to transportation. The Brookings Institution found,

(18:33):
uh to get to work is correlated with upper mobility.
I mean, there's that super common sense. There's no surprise there.
Being able to get to work on time is hugely
correlated with continuing to be employed. But unfortunately, in a
lot of metro areas, including Atlanta where you and I are,
do not have adequate public transportation options, and only a

(18:58):
quarter of low and middle skilled jobs are accessible via
public transit that take ninety minutes or less in the
largest US metro areas, and low income people are more
likely to work during off hours and less likely to
have a driver's license. Not to mention, like your shorter
communes usually don't happen if you are living in a

(19:20):
low income area, right yeah, And I um again, like,
I don't mean to make this all about me. I'm
just trying to give anecdotal examples that yeah, right, um.
But so I was looking at Zillo the other day
to see, like, oh, can my boyfriend and I afford
to move anytime soon? No? Okay? Cool? So I found

(19:41):
an affordable, nice house for rent, like way farther out
than where we live now. And I was like, okay, well,
I wonder how long it would take me to get
to work. And I plugged it in and during a
no traffic time in Atlanta, that's pretty rare. But during
a time of no traffic, it would take me about
twenty five minutes from that house to get to the office,
which that's not terrible, especially based on Atlanta times. Um.

(20:04):
And I was like, well, I don't know if I
want to drive that, Like it's kind of close to
a train station at MARTA's the train system here in Atlanta.
Let me let me see, according to Google Maps, how
long it would take me to get to my job
using Atlanta Mass transit over ninety minutes. Oh, I'm not
surprised because I would have had to take a bus

(20:27):
or walk a long way to the train station first
of all, and then take the train all the way down.
And I'm like, I don't know if it disappears into
a wormhole, why is it taking the train so long
to get to midten Atlanta. Anyway, take the train all
the way to mid Tenantanta and then take another bus
to the office. And it's like, I have the luxury
of a Honda Fit. I could make that or thirty

(20:49):
minute commute from that far out house, you know, in
the part of Atlanta that's still affordable, um, but far
from everybody has that luxury. Yeah, so a in benefits
to the sharing economy, but that is really when all
other variables aren't controlled for you know what. I mean

(21:10):
that this is the best case scenario situation for this
because of course, as we've already mentioned, there are obvious downsides,
starting with shrinking workers rights. Yeah, so this is a
huge thing that economists have pointed out that labor protections

(21:30):
under the Fair Labor Standards Act generally don't apply to
these independent contractors. And that's why you should be scared
about the numbers that Christens cited at the top of
the podcast in terms of like the billions of dollars
that the sharing economy is going to be worth by,
because that's a lot of money going to people who

(21:52):
don't have any legal recourse against abuse, etcetera, etcetera. So
um Airbnb, for instance, requires people to wave their right
to to or join any class action lawsuit and uh
Tom Slee, who's the author of What's Yours Is Mine,
told broadly that he sees this general chipping away of
protections for people who have fought for those protections tooth

(22:15):
and nail, women, people of color, people with disabilities. He said,
it's not really fashionable to be in favor of bureaucracy
and rules, but equal pay for equal work, minimum wage laws,
employment standards that limit employers right to fire at will,
and anti discrimination laws were the result of years of
struggle by feminists, unionists, and anti racism groups. I don't

(22:38):
think they should be thrown away just because a new
app has a rating system, and I mean that all
rating system thing is something that Polack Shaw with the
National Domestic Workers Alliance points out can hold a lot
of power over someone's head. Shaw said that that rating
system that like every app has can result in workers

(23:01):
finishing a job when they don't feel safe just for
fear of receiving a poor rating, and there for less
work because yeah, I mean, if you do a terrible job,
you should get a terrible rating. If you harass a customer,
yeah you should get a terrible rating and be fired.
But if you are at the home of someone who
is a great a jerk, maybe they're harassing you or

(23:21):
threatening you or whatever. I mean to to have to
feel like you've got to put up with that just
to be able to continue to work, because who knows,
maybe you haven't been able to get a job in
the mainstream economy and this is the way that you
have to make money. And companies would say, oh, well,
that's why we allow our employees to also write the customers,
but it doesn't account for the actual situation that that

(23:46):
employee might still have to go through in order to
get to the point of rating a customer. I mean,
uber drivers, lift drivers, etcetera. They can kick people out
of their cars and say, you know, I'm not going
to deal with this person and it's not going to
hurt them, and not as seraly, but Shaw brings up
a really important point, especially if you were in someone
else's home. I mean, I think the situation is probably

(24:08):
different with a ride sharing UH set up because you're
in your own car, you know, so you you might
have feel like you have a little bit more leverage
to not put up with ridiculous people. Yeah, and I
mean I think also, I mean, you're likely if you
have to kick out a violent passenger, someone's probably gonna
catch that on a on an iPhone. Honestly, Like the

(24:31):
the woman who was drunk in that Uber guy's car
and started like hitting him and throwing things at him
from the backseat, and he was trying to remove her
and not like hurt her at the same time, and
she was hitting him kicking him. I mean, it was
It can be crazy and not the taxi drivers don't
put up with that. But there's a lot of abuse
that you can take as a worker for some of

(24:51):
these gig apps, which is why some people are pushing
Uber and others to require drivers to have cameras in
their cars, like we're doing with police, both to protect
customers and drivers. Um. But it's like, once you get home,

(25:12):
your shift is done, Okay, you might have pocketed some cash,
probably not as much as advertisements would lead you to
believe that you're going to make um. But you're not
going to get any benefits on top of that, unless,
of course, you are classified as a direct employee of
say a handy or Uber. Yeah, I mean, because of

(25:33):
things like the terrible child care system and non existent
family system in this country. Like maybe you are a
woman who's opted to go for more flexible work schedule
like an uber or a lift can provide. But yeah,
they're there, it's not like they're providing for you in
any way. Not. I mean, no person who's employing a

(25:55):
contractor has to provide for you in that way. Well,
and that's the thing I mean. This to me is
a symptom of a broader issue of our contract work economy.
And how uh in I m h O. There are
way too many massive corporations that are allowed to rely

(26:15):
way too much on contract work so that they don't
have to pay benefits. Which is interesting because I feel
like a lot of this app culture came out after
the or or from the recession, when it's like, Okay,
well everybody's been laid off, but we can bootstrap our
own app and make millions, and you know, I'm I'm
a guy who's going to create this app and make

(26:35):
a lot of money to make everybody's lives easier. Um So,
but then you just end up with a workforce that
still isn't able to get any sort of legal protections
as full time employees. And I mean, how how independent
are you really when like, for instance, if you're a
driver for a driving service a rideshare app, You've still
got to pay your own car expenses. You've still got

(26:57):
to pay your own parking tickets, which I totally feel
like as companies should pay for if you're a driver
for them and you end up getting a ticket anyway, Um,
some drivers end up earning like three bucks an hour
after they have to pay for all of this stuff.
Oh yeah, yeah, I mean, and also depending on if
you have to cancel rides, and there's all sorts of stuff,
they can influence how much money you're actually going to

(27:18):
take home. And then of course, on the flip side
of that, there are all sorts of concerns over consumer protection,
including price transparency, privacy risks, UH, safety standards, and these
are the kinds of issues that could lead users very
vulnerable and have left users vulnerable, particularly lower income users

(27:43):
or are users in more and just marginalized groups in
general who have fewer channels for legal recourse. Yeah, and
I mean, you know, Christian was talking about the push
to get Uber to have cameras in their cars. Uber
comes back with that saying, um, it's too much of
an expense for our new drivers. Um. And Uber has

(28:04):
been slammed a lot for loopholes allowing them to hire
people with felony convictions. Because the thing is, and this
is a thing that like taxi people have been like
hammering home a lot. Uh. And of course they have
their own agenda. But you know, Uber background checks use
a database that can only go back for seven years,
and they refuse to fingerprint their drivers versus taxi companies

(28:26):
who check a prospective driver's fingerprint records against a database
that theoretically include their complete criminal history in this country.
And the whole fingerprinting thing is why Uh. Companies like
Uber and Lift pulled out of Austin, Texas. For instance,
Austin was ready to clamp down on you know, safety
rules and rags to try to protect customers, and Uber

(28:49):
was basically like nope, So since what is its spring
of this year. Yeah, yeah, there. It was actually because
of something called Proposition one that fail that, according to
the Daily Dot, would have replaced an ordinance adopted in
December that required them to conduct those finger based fingerprint

(29:10):
based background checks. Lea on the whole thing with those
FBI fingerprint checks that they take sixteen weeks, and Uber's like, nope,
that's a barrier to new drivers getting a job with
us so that they can quickly make money. And it
just really sounds like, well, no, that's more of honestly
a barrier to you making money off those drivers. But
that's neither handle there. Um. Actually that's the whole point

(29:31):
of this podcast, um, and in general for communities that
you know, that Business for Social Responsibility Report talked a
lot about the inclusivity of these apps and services and
the benefits for low income communities. But the thing is, Um,
because of all the money that's going toward rideshare apps,

(29:51):
for instance, that could actually result in a weekend push
for expanded public transit options, But like, who is that
affecting Because a lot of people who don't use rideshare
apps still need better public transit. But like if you
and I don't care anymore about expanding public trans in
Atlanta because we're able to just hop into a lift

(30:13):
that takes away a lot of the like vocal citizen
muscle that can go into saying no, no, no, we
still want you to expand Marta, Please expand Marta. So
essentially this means and this is what we're gonna do.
And the next half of the podcast, when we come
back from a quick break, is talk about the privilege
wrapped up in how the sharing economy is structured. And

(30:37):
we'll get back to that end just a second. Okay,
So obviously I was surprised to anyone racism. Hello, It
is a main factor and a lot of the crap
that goes on with the gig economy. You know that.

(30:59):
That bs OUR report was like, it's an end for racism.
You don't have to discriminate against anyone because of their color.
Oh if only life were that great. Um. In late
May of this year, there was a twenty five year
old black man who sued Airbnb for racial discrimination, and
as reports we Read pointed out, his account reflects a

(31:21):
recent Harvard study that documented widespread discrimination against African American
guests on Airbnb. Hello. How many articles have we read
talking about black individuals men or women or both who
show up to their Airbnb rental and like, have the
cops called on them because people think they're breaking in? Yeah,

(31:42):
hence the hashtag Airbnb while black as the hashtag uber
will black. Oh yeah, same thing exactly, And Airbnb's response
seemed to be really strong, but to me, it comes
out like a lot of hot air. So their responses
to of course denounce racism. Uh. They engaged the former
head of the a C l U d C office

(32:02):
to find ways that they can address the challenge of
racist Airbnb hosts. UM they suspended or banned people who
violated its anti discrimination policy. Like for instance, trans woman
Shady Potoski got a lot of noise going on Twitter
when she recounted her experience of UM having her Airbnb

(32:24):
reservation declined because she was like, Hey, I'm a trans woman. Uh,
the world stage is not necessarily the safest place for me,
so I always make sure to disclose two potential Airbnb
host that I'm a trans woman, because God forbid, I
show up in person and there is some sort of
awful thing that happens. Anyway, Her post on Twitter ended

(32:45):
up getting a lot of attention in Airbnb, and I
think that's like a year after the fact, Airbnb ended
up banning that host as part of their anti discrimination efforts,
which I mean, that's great, but it would be better
if there were policies and procedures in place to prevent
that from happening from the get go. UM. AIRBND also
actually hired former U S Attorney General Eric Holder to

(33:06):
strengthen its anti discrimination policy. Yeah. I mean, personally speaking,
I give them props for acting as to me quickly
as they have, UM in between a big study that
came out a few months back, UM really quantifying the
unconscious bias and LRTE racism UM that happens through their platform,

(33:31):
and I do think that they're serious about it. UM.
And it goes to this issue of you know, having
to take an intersectional approach to how you are creating
these apps and realizing that, Yeah, I mean you're going
to have to try to use technology to work around

(33:53):
unconscious bias in addition to racism. Yes, yes, and that's
why you have straight up anti discrimination policy these But
in terms of unconscious bias, that's when we get into
the questions of like Okay, profile pictures, maybe that is
not necessarily something that we need to have because that
sparks it. There have been um situations where there's a

(34:15):
woman of color who noticed she was getting turned down
an awful lot for airbnbs, so she switched her profile
picture to not reveal her ethnicity and low and behold,
she's getting acceptances left in her right well exactly. And
on the flip side, there's a similar profile picture issue
with hosts. So there's this research sided in Forbes that

(34:36):
found that black hosts are charging about twelve percent less
for equivalent rentals by non black hosts, and it's because
they might be having a harder time attracting guests and
have to keep their prices low. The whole thing is
that Airbnb tells new hosts that they quote may want
to charge lower than average rates to attract travelers at first,

(34:56):
Like when you first get on Airbnb, no matter who
you are, start low, attract a good audience that can
give you good reviews, and then raise your prices from there.
But the researchers were finding that black hosts lower prices
were evidence of a permanent disadvantage. Why what is the
layer there? Well, Airbnb if you, I mean, if you've

(35:18):
ever used it. I've used it numerous times. When you're
searching for rentals, you know you've got the picture of
the rental front and center, but also like right there
on the side is the picture of the host, and
sure you know you can have as The example is
that you can have the Eiffel Tower as your profile picture.
But the whole thing is that you're using your face
to put people at ease, like, hey, I'm a human,

(35:40):
I'm not some predator or whatever, like you can trust
me and rent from me. Um. But the fact is,
whether it's conscious or not, a lot of people are
passing up units being rented out by black individuals because
of racial bias. Well, and also to the Eiffel Tower example,
our social media habits, especially if you look at Facebook

(36:03):
and Instagram, the things that we are drawn to the
most are photos not of objects, but of actual people.
So I can see why, like you're and also too,
if I were to run across an Airbnb um listing
with an object rather than a person, I know there

(36:25):
would be a moment in my head of like, who
is this really? What are they? What are they trying
to hide? Well, and I mean that's a real fear
for a lot of people because there have been so
many reports too of harassment and sexual assault by women
who have showed up at a rental and the person
who's there to hand in the keys or share a

(36:46):
room is not the person whose picture was on the site.
So like, even if your picture is not the Eiffel
Tower or like a dog, you know, there's still so
much potential to lie and take advantage, right, and uh,
this has me thinking too of the difference between Airbnb
and older rental platforms like Verbo and home away um,

(37:10):
which my husband and I have used the number of times,
especially for things like writing things like cabins and beach
condos which makes us sound fancy, but we go there
because we can't afford a fancy one um And there
are no on the listenings. You only see a thumbnail
of actual home once you are thinking you really want

(37:30):
to rent it, and then you go to the rental page.
You can see their profile and there's usually a picture
and the way to contact them and all of that,
but it is more focused solely on what the place
looks like rather than who you're renting from, which is
kind of interesting. And in one of these pieces focusing
on Airbnb, I think they reached out to Verbo for

(37:51):
comment and Verbo was like, nah, so I don't. I don't.
I'm not sure why, but yeah, well yeah, And I
mean those researchers sided by Forbes definitely said the profile
pictures should be less prominent. Maybe don't even have one
on the search page at all, move it inside, and
um ask yourself, as the renter why it matters, especially

(38:12):
if you're renting a home. I can understand, like if
you're sharing a space, if you're not doing the whole
home option, maybe you just want a seller who is
also a woman, for instance, to feel safer. But I mean,
I think asking yourself about your biases is always a
good exercise, but since people you know are not always
so great at doing that. There's the guy who launched

(38:36):
noir B and B, particularly for people of color looking
for rentals who don't want to have to deal with
all of this nonsense. And we're seeing, you know, women
who exclusively want to rent, especially for like a shared
situation where someone's just running a room. They only want
to rent to other women, but they don't want to
be seen as discriminatory. They're just like, well, that's my

(38:56):
comfort level too. Yeah, I mean, and that's an issue
of like we're starting to self segregate in the interest
of safety. I mean. Yeah. That twenty seven year old
guys Stephen Grant was one of the many, many African
Americans who had had the cops called on him and
his girlfriend when they showed up to check into their Airbnb,
and he basically just said, yeah, we launched noir BnB.

(39:18):
It's called because we realized there was a lack of
concern for the safety and comfort of black travelers and
we wanted to fill that void. Um. He said, human
beings create technology, but there needs to be more diversity
when it comes to the creators of said technology. And
that is a massive point we're about to hit too. Um.
But we have to talk about obviously sexual harassment and

(39:39):
sexual violence. The unfortunate thing about it when it comes
to these gig economy apps is that the numbers are
really murky. Um. Sometimes things get reported, sometimes they don't.
Sometimes people report things straight to the app and not
the cops sometimes vice versa, and the cops don't always
necessarily right down know whether it was a sexual assault

(40:01):
in an airbnb versus a taxi, or whether it's a
sexual assault on the street. They don't necessarily break it
down that way, right, um, And in case you are
listening and want to know more about this, will post
the link, of course on this podcast post, but you
can also go to Who's driving You dot org because
there is no, you know, the other database of these

(40:23):
kinds of instances, and they itemize reported incidents involving Uber
and list specifically and break it down by crime. And
you're scrolling through and first there are deaths and there
are a number of them. There are assaults, and then
you scroll down to alleged sexual assaults and harassment, and
the list just goes on and on and on and on.

(40:49):
I'm just like, I mean, I was stunned. I mean,
I I knew that this was an issue, but just
seeing it when you're just scrolling through it, it will
hit you. And Uber, for one kind of refuses to
take any responsibility for this, or refuses to admit that
the numbers might be as high as they are, because

(41:11):
why would you lie and go on this website that
you're talking about, Kristen, Why would you take the time
to even make that up? Um, there was a little
bit of a kerfuffle. BuzzFeed published screenshots from a former
Uber customer service rep that showed more than six thousand
tickets in the database for sexual assault and nearly six

(41:32):
thousand for rape, and Uber was like, no, no, that's
not that's not right. They said that only five of
those were legitimate rape tickets and fewer than a hundred
and seventy sexual assault cases legitimate rape. Hyeah, you know,
you know, like you're in sketchy territory when that happens.

(41:55):
And uh, what they blamed the inflated numbers on, or
which they said were inflated, was typos. They said people
meant to type rate like as in the fair instead
of rape, or they were saying tacky things like your
prices raped my wallet, right, and and to that example,

(42:15):
that's why, no, don't don't use rape in that context.
That is not rape. Um. And just anecdotally, I don't
think that my iPhone has ever auto corrected anything to rape.
I'm shrugging my shoulders right now. I don't know that's
well obviously that's just my personal experience, but well sure,

(42:36):
but I mean, Uber, the the lifeblood of all of
these apps is publicity, right, like word of mouth. The
app is cool, it's hip, it's cheap, it's got a
great user experience. Just inner things. It's so easy, your
credit card infos stored in there. You just you don't
have to tip at least like not handing over the cash.

(42:57):
You can tip after, right, And so like, oh good,
you're protecting me from like potentially getting mugged by some
delivery person. But um, yeah, you're not protecting me against
sexual assault. And there was this horror story that is
all over the internet of this nineteen year old man
who was locked up and sexually assaulted by his Airbnb
host in Madrid. And he didn't know whether his phone

(43:21):
because he's from Massachusetts, he didn't know whether his phone
could access international emergency numbers. So he texts his mother
from like this basement in Madrid. She contacts Airbnb. They
tell her to just call Madrid police herself rather than
like sending an agent to go check on him. Um,

(43:42):
and when she did, when she took the number that
they gave her, that she could not get through to
Madrid authorities and Airbnb, in like a half hearted defense, said, oh, well,
we thought the assault had already taken place, so we
didn't really know what you wanted, and they wouldn't release
the address to her, they wouldn't give any information. And

(44:03):
that's where we get into this tough issue too of yes, customers,
privacy needs to be protected, but also what do you
do in these kinds of situations like where is the line?
And who's making these calls? And why aren't better systems
set up in place? You know, I mean there's a
lot of like hands up in the air of like nope, no,

(44:24):
we will take your money and we will act as
the go between to like connect users and renters. But
right these companies want as little liability as possible hands down, um,
And really, at the crux of all of this is
the issue of privilege, because I forget who it was

(44:45):
who made this excellent point where oh yes, okay, so
this is here and kale over a broadly who says
the lifeblood of a sharing economy is the idea that
the public space is a safe space where in individuals
can open up their homes to strangers and read the
financial and cultural dividends. Okay, just take street harassment alone.

(45:07):
We know for a fact that they the public space
is not unequivocally a safe space. I mean, this is
the assumption held by the people who are developing these
apps and these technologies that you can not only walk
safely through public spaces, but ride, sleep, work free of harassment.

(45:30):
And then it's okay. You just trust as long as
you know they see your profile picture and they have
a credit card information. You know, if they trash your apartment,
Airbnb will help you cover that cost. Like, don't worry
about it. Everybody can trust each other. What in the
world are you talking about. You're talking about public spaces
according to sis straight white men, you know, and that
and and not saying that like those guys are all terrible.

(45:53):
I'm married one. Um. But it's it's the privilege issue
and the fact that we need to except that, No,
this isn't some kind of uh color blind utopia, nor
should it be, you know. Yeah, I mean Kal points
out that, um, you know, for women, people of color,

(46:13):
for trans people, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. On and on our
homes are our retreats from these contested public spaces. It's
a retreat from getting hollered at on the street by
people who are disgusting and in the sharing economy, you
know someone else's home or car, even if you're paying
for it to use it, it's not necessarily a safe space.

(46:35):
And she interviewed Dr Fiona Vera Gray of Durham University
in the UK, who has studied a lot about sexual harassment,
and she said that basically, when it comes to public spaces,
women in particular are forced to moderate their desire for
freedom and safety. You end up restricting your own freedom

(46:57):
in order to feel safe. No one has to lock
you up, no one has to bar your door. You
feel that you have to lock yourself up in order
to feel safe or to recover from having gone out
into these contested public spaces. And so Dr Vera Gray
was telling Kale about the so called just world hypothesis,

(47:20):
and this is like a perfect encapsulation of the privileged conversation.
It's the idea that the world is essentially a just
place and that if we just all come together and share,
it's going to be mutually beneficial for everyone. So she says,
if you're a man who's been brought up to see
the world as a safe space, as a fair space,

(47:43):
a space that people can move and interact in, freely,
then you'll have that view. And the only thing I
would change and that quote is a white man, because
if we're talking about safe public spaces, that does not
apply to African American men no at all. So it
seems like the band aid that we're sort of slapping

(48:05):
on this issue as quickly as possible because the sharing
economy is growing as fast as it possibly can because
billions of dollars. Is this issue of self segregation like
the noir BnB that we've already talked about um that
Stefan Grant started. And then in terms of gender, there's
been so much media attention around UH services like Chariot

(48:28):
for Women and she Taxis, which are just two of
the women only rideshare services that have been launched directly
in response to sexual assault and sexual discrimination complaints. UH.
They exist abroad as well. There's some in India. In
France you have Blah Blah Car, which is just acute sounding,
you know service that also allows women to request female drivers.

(48:51):
But there's been a lot of write ups too about
very trollish men who are launching sexual discrimination plaints against
women only rideshare things, because that's I mean, and that's
awful and also goes to the point that while these
services might be necessary, they are not a fix, you know,

(49:15):
until until we're willing to get at the root of
the problem and take action on that UM and this,
and the solution is not also to just tell the
gig worker to get a better job. You hear that
all the time. Oh, you're complaining, Just get a better
You hear that with everything in the economy. Just get
a better job. Just get a better job. Like it's

(49:35):
so talk about privilege, talk about privilege. And you have
to keep in mind too with things like this, a
lot of the people who are working in this economy
are working in it to supplement an income already. So
maybe they're not making enough money. Maybe they're literally just
trying to provide for their children. And they've also perhaps
had to drop out of the traditional economy because our
system is so jacked when it comes to things like childcare.

(49:59):
So we do have, thankfully advocates who are tirelessly working
on this, including the National Employment Law Project that really
wants to restructure the ten contractor relationship to offer workers
greater protection, and they have proposed a whole model for this. Yeah,
so they say that we should expand the statutory employee framework.

(50:21):
This is basically where contractors are considered actual workers for
certain regulatory purposes like tax laws. Uh. And this would
provide quote unquote portable benefits and policymakers would directly require
companies that use these ten ninety nine workers to abide
by labor standards like the minimum wage, to pay into
Social Security and state workers camp and unemployment insurance funds.

(50:45):
So basically like, not only in relation to the gig economy,
but in general, to treat workers people in this country
who maybe we're criticizing them because you're part of the system.
You're you're not you're not contributing to a mayor ica.
And it's like, well, um, let's treat all of our
workers then as humans who deserve dignity and respect and

(51:06):
to be able to provide for their families and help
is also help. The National Employment Law Project now also
wants to see an avenue for on demand contractors to
be able to organize and collectively bargain around labor conditions. Basically,
it's the same song and dance we've seen forever of like, hey,
you know what helps people who are marginalized and voiceless unions.

(51:30):
I mean, regardless of your opinion on unions, that's generally
what helps working conditions. Yeah, labor organizing, and that's how
we've gotten all of the workers rights that people are worried.
But sharing economy is eroding. Yeah, And I mean you've
got Seattle, which is planning to give rideshare workers the
legal right to collectively bargain. And I mean that that's

(51:51):
just one effort. I'm sure there are many others in
many other cities across the world. But yeah, I mean
it's so great to be able to press the button
and have my groceries delivered or have someone show up
to take me to the airport. But I mean there
is so much more wrapped up in that, because it's
kind of like, um, when you talk about public assistance

(52:12):
and people are like, uh, you know, I hate that
people are dependent on this thing entitlement, entitlement, and it's
the kind of thing of like, um, you know, people
who are working for these gig economy apps, these sharing
economy apps are trying to contribute to society. They are
trying to make a living wage and support themselves and

(52:34):
potentially their families. Um. But in the same time, they're
like trapped in this vortex of like not making enough money,
not having protections. Because the convenience factor applies not only
to us consumers clicking you know, the the app and
instantly having whatever we need right at our fingertips, but

(52:56):
also if you need some income, there's the uh, the
convenience factor of it too, where you can you know,
I think it does lower the barrier to potentially making
some money, which is very tempting. And unfortunately there are
too many instances and I've heard this from so many

(53:16):
Uber and Lift drivers, particularly on my rides home from
the airport, because they're usually it's like the longest time
I'm in the car, and um, I always try to
talk to my driver's UM, and I've heard so many
times just about what a hustle it is. And for
that reason one another not to uh to seem like

(53:40):
I'm sponsored by Lift, But one thing I do like
about Lift is that you can tip your drivers. And
if you have a good driver, tip your driver, seriously,
tip your driver, UM, because a good karma just like
being a good human and be they're not, you know,
they're not making a lot of money. UM, So a

(54:01):
lot of the time. So the main takeaway of all
of this is the technology terrific, the potential incredible. But
if we want to truly make it inclusive, we have
to truly make it inclusive. You know, Inclusivity is not
limited to convenience. Yeah, and I think you know, one

(54:21):
thing I was thinking of when we were discussing like
racist hosts on Airbnb for instance, um or other you know,
property rental places. I think there is an attitude that like, well,
I'm a human with a space to rent, so I
have the right to get on Airbnb and rent it
to whoever I choose, and like to an extent. Yeah,

(54:43):
but there's nothing stopping I mean, Airbnb has launched all
of these anti discrimination efforts. There's nothing stopping Airbnb from
being like, you know what, we just really don't want
you here if you're such an exclusive renter. Oh yeah,
I mean, and it sounds like they've done that with
for instance, with the the woman who turned away the
trans woman. Yeah. Well, I guess what I'm trying to

(55:04):
say is like, and I think all those things are positive,
But I guess what I'm trying to say is making
it way more clear upfront of like maybe we just
don't want you here if you're going to be racist,
or perhaps if you are using it just to like
lure women or something, well, it sounds like in that
situation we are really mixing up accessibility and inclusivity. You know,

(55:29):
just because it might be really easy to access and
use doesn't mean that the barrier of entry is as
low for every body. You know, just because you can
access an app doesn't mean you really can access safely
the service. So I am so sure that there are
a lot of people listening to this who have a

(55:50):
lot to say. Um, and we want to hear about
this from all ends of the share economy, whether you
are an employee, a customer, whether you are a full
fledged handy lift uber, corporate employee. Um. Because this is
such a major issue, this isn't going anywhere, nor are
we proposing that it should. But um, there are definitely

(56:14):
ways that, already in its infancy relatively can be reformed.
So mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com is
where you can send all of your emails. You can
also tweet us a mom stuff podcasts or messages on Facebook,
and we've got a couple of messages to share with
you when we come right back from a quick break.

(56:43):
All right, Well, I have a letter here from Megan
in response to our Mad Women Women in Advertising two parter. Uh.
She said, I was beyond excited to see that you
did a two part series on women in advertising. I
majored in advertising in college with the dream of becoming
a creative director. However, I quickly learned how hard that
career path is, especially for women. I interned in the

(57:03):
creative department of an advertising agency as a copywriter my
junior year of college. Even though several women worked at
the agency, everyone in the creative department was male except
for one of the copywriters and an art director. However,
both of these women seemed to fit in better with
the guys than me. I wore a dresses and makeup
often because I liked to. I was told by a
male creative director that I dressed up too much, even

(57:26):
though I didn't look much different from the women and
other departments. My senior year, I applied to be the
creative director from my classes advertising capstone project. Since I
was the only applicant with experience working in a creative
department and an ad agency, I felt confident that I
would get the position. However, I lost out to the
only guy who applied. Later, this guy would say to
his team of all women, women just aren't as creative

(57:48):
and women can't be funny. I'm not even kidding. This
was a twenty two year old, college educated man saying
blatantly sexist remarks to his team of women, and I
was the only one who ever stood up to him. Unfortunately,
this was not the end of my experience of sexism
in my advertising career. I once had an informal interview
with a male creative director who after ten minutes told
me that he didn't really see me as a creative

(58:09):
and that I should work in the typically female dominated
account services as an introvert. I never once considered account services,
but I guess the way I looked made this particular
creative director I think I'd be a great fit. Eventually,
I gave up on trying to make it as a
creative in an ad agency because I felt like I
would never be the right personality fit and I wasn't
willing to sacrifice who I am for my career. Today,

(58:30):
I work as a marketing manager for an in house
marketing team. I get to do a little bit of
everything from creative to research to analytics. Currently, my team
is made up of women, and I have to brag
that it is the most creative and productive AD team
I've ever worked with. Sometimes I do miss parts of
the ad agency life, like free beer and late night
brainstorming sessions. But what I like better is working somewhere
that I feel appreciated and respected, and I don't think

(58:52):
I would have experienced that in most agencies if I'd
stayed on the path to become a creative director. Oh boy, Megan, well,
I'm glad you found somewhere that makes you happy. Thanks
for writing. So I have a letter here from Amy
with a positive story about being a woman in the
ad industry. She writes, I'm a VP director at a
large media agency, the mom of a three year old

(59:13):
and a one year old, as well as having a
spouse who works full time in marketing too. To say
my life as hectic is an understatement. I spent the
first eight years of my career in the same department
run by the same woman whom I eventually reported to
as a working mom herself. She made it her mission
to look after, challenge and mentor women and moms on
her team. When I announced that I was pregnant with

(59:34):
my first we began informal working mom lessons once a
month to discuss and prepare for how my life would
change and how to manage my career and ambitions Accordingly.
I was actually coached and told that you've proven yourself
to us by her and others, which gave me the
confidence to push for flexibility. I needed my team and
clients know that unless something critical is going on, I'm

(59:55):
unavailable from five ish to eight dish while I pick up,
feed and play with my kids. So to me whatever
you need and you'll have a response by the time
you're in in the morning. I feel empowered to do
this thanks to this old boss slash mentor and watching
other working moms and mentors around me leave for the
train at five or go on a kid's field trip
and still earn VP and s VP titles. They are

(01:00:17):
countless women I know who will name this woman as
a key reason they remain in the industry today. I'll
also note that four out of the five years I've
been working entirely remotely, when my husband's job required us
to move to Chicago, I've been able to continue working
for this company in other cities. Even better, I'm not
the only person doing this, and we have a few
people all over the country who, for some reason or another,

(01:00:39):
are working from home. We've also set up a working
parents group note parents not moms, where moms and dads
can identify working parent mentors ask for advice, even if
it's just recipes, kids will eat and generally support each
other in demanding jobs. Advertising is still tough on women
and moms. Just last night, I had to hide in
my bedroom and take a six pm call with senior

(01:01:00):
clients while my kids banked on the door saying they
wanted Mommy to make dinner and not daddy. And that sucks,
and they're definitely times. I hate the inflexibility that client
services lead to, but in the media agency world, we
also have to make money by being perpetually understaffed, so
things are not all rosie. However, I did want to
paint a picture of my extremely positive experience as a
woman and mother in the industry, and Amy, thank you

(01:01:22):
so much for sharing that. That's so good to hear
and also just such a perfect case study of women
supporting other women, parents supporting other parents in the workplace
and we need more of it, so if you have
stories to share with us, Mom stuff at how stuff
works dot com is our email address and for links
to all of our social media as well as all

(01:01:44):
of our blogs, videos, and podcasts with our sources. So
you can learn more about the gig economy, head on
over to stuff mom Never Told You dot com. For
more on this and thousands of other topics, visit how
stuff Workshop comics