V is for Veganism

Nearly half of vegetarians are men, but veganism is an overwhelmingly women-dominated lifestyle. E&B unpack the pros and cons of a plant-based life.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Emily, and this is and you're listening
to stuff Mom never told you. Today we are talking
about veganism, which is something that is near and dear

(00:26):
to our hearts, like all the topics we talked about,
and we I mean me, I yeah you should see.
You should see the look that Bridgetes gave me. But
so actually, what's interesting is Christian Caroline did an episode
on vegetarianism and women in vegetarianism, and a lot of
emails that have been coming in from that said, yo,

(00:48):
let's talk about veganism. And we've even got a few
listening emails. We're going to mention today about women in
veganism in particular. And let me be the first to
say I went vegan about a year and a half ago,
so I'm still relatively new to the space, and I
am very much not a strictly orthodox vegan. I am flexitarian,

(01:11):
as flexitarian as they come. And we're going to talk
a little bit about why. Uh, but let's let's first
define our terms a little bit and bridget what what
is your general thought on this? Because I'm curious, Um, well,
I did go through a phase of veganism in late college. Um,
it did. It did not last long. I went from

(01:31):
vegetarian to vegan. Um. That really started as a as
a you know, a weirdness around cooking. I think I
was once cutting chicken or something. I was cutting some
sort of meat and I just realized, you know, I
hit one of those tumors or something that sometimes isn't
meat and it was really gross, and I was like, well, um.
I also always kind of felt sensitive around cooking meat,
and so I was like, oh, my cooking it done enough.

(01:53):
I don't want to die. You don't ever die from
undercooking a carrot or something, you know. So it really
came from a place of laziness and a version. You
definitely were like, you know, this is gross. Um. I
also when I became vegan, I did that purely because
I wanted to look cool, like no other reason. I
just thought it was cool. And people were like, oh,
I can you eat this vegan? I was like, oh,

(02:14):
I want to be like that. When was this? What
time in your life was like I would have been
in my early twenties. Cool? Yeah, interesting, Well, I think
we're going to touch upon some of those philosophies, and
I do not feel cool being coming out as a vegan.
First of all, I feel like we're going to talk
about why I get a lot of judgment. And I

(02:35):
come from a very foodie family. I am a food
eat y'all. I love food. I love eating, and so
there's a lot of assumptions I think that vegans get,
which is, oh, you must not love food or you
must not eat a lot. I literally had someone to
say to me yesterday, well what do you eat? And
I just like rolled my eyes a little bit. But

(02:57):
before we get to that, let's I guess we should
talk about the bach so veganism, right. The Vegan Society,
which is based out of the UK, sort of an
advocacy group for veganism and education group. They define their
formal definition is Veganism is a way of living which
seeks to exclude as far as possible and practical. That's
an important part of the definition to me, all forms

(03:20):
of exploitation of and cruelty to animals for food, clothing,
or any other purposes. I say this while I'm wearing
leather boots, by the way, So like, can we just
say I'm not nobody perfect. This is not about perfectionism.
Having recently talked about perfectionism on the podcast. This is
not about compulsive eating or restrictive eating because of compulsive behaviors.

(03:43):
This is really about a relationship with animals and the world.
And a couple of stats I think are important to
start off with is that according to data, and there's
really not enough of this research out there, but according
to data from top r end to BSN dot com
and info Graphic, which is a little bit dated now,
this is from two thousand six, no, sorry, two thousand,

(04:08):
a couple of years ago, from something um, about a
million Americans are vegan, which is not actually that many,
it's like less than two percent, but seventy nine percent
of them are women. Wow. And unlike vegetarianism, which is
much more evenly split, veganism is like a total lady thing.
It's a total woman thing. So the gender divide for

(04:30):
vegetarians is more like fifty nine to forty one, whereas
veganism is more like seventy nine to whatever. So it's
also a trend that's on the rise. I think it's
important to mention some more uh, some more recent statistics
from the United Kingdom demonstrated that there was a three
hundred and fifty percent increase in plant based lifestyle and diet.

(04:54):
So veganism was on the rise in the UK in
a big way, and I would argue as well here
in the United States. That's also interesting because veganism is
really on the rise with young people. Um So we
have a study here that says that it's really driven
by the young. Close to half of all vegans are
aged fifteen to thirty four. That's when compared to just
fourteen percent who were over sixty five. And when The

(05:16):
Guardian asked people about being vegan, sixty seven percent of
the four hundred and seventy four folks they asked, we're
under thirty four. So this is really a movement that's
being kind of driven and and taken over by young folks.
It's not your older folks who are going vegan in
these big droves, it's it's it's young people. Yeah. So
there's some component to this that we're going to talk
about more in a little bit that has to do

(05:38):
with social media, which I'll be the first to admit
I was swayed to be to look into the vegan
lifestyle more than any other influence, which there's a ton
of documentaries out there that people like watch and then
become vegan right away. But for me, it was a
social thing. So a couple of my friends started talking

(06:00):
about their vegan lifestyle, and I really love animals. I
love animals a lot, and so when I started seeing
the implication of and Peter was very persuasive in my
social media feed of sort of how animals are treated
in this country and how the food industry have the
meat industry in particular, uh, and dairy industry really actually works.

(06:22):
The more I learned, the more I couldn't help but
become a little concerned. And then it was the Instagram
feed of one of my friends who became a medical
doctor that really swayed me. So she was posting two
things that were very persuasive. One medical research that showed
that doctors across the United States and beyond are recommending

(06:43):
a plant based diet for health purposes because of carcinogens
and the concern with hormones in our milk, and lots
like little girls are developing earlier because of hormones that
were ingesting from hormones that they're putting in animals. Um
that a vegan diet is being used to treat in
a homeopathic way, of course, um or maybe not a

(07:05):
homeopathic way. I don't want to say that. I don't
want to like distance this from actual medical science, because
medical science is turning to vegan diets to treat things
like cancer. And I'm not here to say if you
didn't eat so much meat, you wouldn't you know, wouldn't
have cancer. That's not at all what I'm trying to
say here. But she was posting medical evidence for health

(07:25):
benefits of veganism, which we're going to talk about, and
all the great food that she was eating. Yeah, I
mean that last one would be the only thing I'd
be like, medical what like? But that looks good. Yeah,
so it's like, oh, that recipe looks great. Knew that
recipe looks great. So to me, it was like she
had this hashtag what vegans eat, but she was using
a lot that answers the question that you were asking exactly.

(07:48):
So I don't know, it just became all of a
sudden much more plausible and persuasive. So let's let's talk
about the four core reasons I've seen vegans come to
the lifestyle, and these are all for that played a
big impact on my desire The first one is really obvious.
The first one is animal rights. There was an argument

(08:09):
I was reading around social justice and animal justice, and
I think part of the reason, uh, non vegans get
very like weird about the response too. I'm seeing this weird,
like you're already giving. But part of the reason I
think people get is it defensive about Maybe it's defensively.

(08:30):
I think it has a lot to do with defensiveness.
But here's the thing, Okay, however you feel about animals,
I really believe that the cow in the pasture kind
of wants to be snuggled and held and hugged and
not killed as much as my dog does. Yes, yes,
all this is and we can tell ourselves whatever we

(08:53):
want to tell ourselves about what beings are sentient and
what beings are not, what beings you know to live
and don't. And I get it. It's a cruel, cruel
world out there. But I really think if I can
sustain myself in a practical way without having to, you know,
support an industry that raises animals for the pure need

(09:14):
of killing them, and sometimes raises them and the most
horrific of conditions that are that you know, strip some
of their right to exist in this planet with the
basic needs that like I think human beings should get. Ah,
then I'd rather not support that. And I'm the kind
of person who really aspires to have a pig someday
and horses and animals around me. And you're I can

(09:37):
already see you now with a farm in your like
urban urban farming. Yeah, I'm it's in the plan. It's
in the life plan. So I just you know, we
think we decide sort of arbitrarily, in my opinion, which
animals we give personalities to, like dogs and cats, in
which animals we eat. So there are parts of the

(09:58):
world where they eat dogs and cats, and we think
those people are different or savage or somehow we're better
than them in a moral way, and that to me
seems very arbitrary. So to me, it boils down to
I animal rights. You know, they don't want to be killed,
and I don't really want to kill them for the
sake of my being more advanced or better as a

(10:19):
human being and someone that's basically it or or at least,
you know, I think the free range chickens sort of example,
at least people are you know, being conscious about how
the chickens or how the animals are being cared for
before they are sent to slaughter. Yeah, I mean I
can understand that. And I full disclosure, I'm a total carnivore.
I you know, I've gone through phases of no meat,

(10:40):
mild flirtations of veganism, but I I'm a meat eater.
There's no way around it. Um. And yeah, I mean
I love animals too, right, I I am a big
animal person. I mentioned earlier that I became vegan briefly
because of like I just wanted to be cool. And
the reason that was because I was dating someone who
was straight edge and if you don't know what that
that means. Basically, it means you're vegan. You don't drink,

(11:02):
you don't you don't use caffeine. And he was militant
and bad. It had straight edge tattoos and it was
the point. And so like I was trying to fall
in with this like very cool, you know, straight edge
crowd time and they were kind of very very into
animal rights, and so that was a big part of
it that you know, if you you couldn't be like
a progressive with it person, if you weren't down with veganism,

(11:24):
and I embrace that short term. But then it was
it was this idea that you know, I just I
just thought, like I love animals and the fact that
I eat steak and you know, bacon or whatever doesn't
mean that I'm like a bad person. And I think
that I think that that was I think that I
agree that you know you're exactly right that you you know,

(11:44):
when you eat meat, you are supporting this like terrible industry.
But I think that when you buy, when you buy me, yes,
thank you, which I have to say, I quit buying.
But on occasion, this is like how people talk about drugs,
about cigarettes, I definitely quit buying. I mean, I'm not
a lie. Like if I'm not, I don't deal well
with deprivation. We're going to talk about this in a minute.

(12:05):
But what he's saying, like when you put your money
behind an indtry. We talk a lot about conscious consumerism
on this podcast. This is another extension of that, and
I think people get really threatened by by the implication
that when a vegan says I love animals, so I
don't eat them, what we're saying is you hate animals.
It's kind of like a little bit like racism. So

(12:27):
I don't hate black people, but that's never a good
big But if you think about whether you want to
call it white guilt or defensiveness or whatever, when I'm
not sexist, but like all of those reactions that tend
to be militant and overblown in a little bit like
super duper defensive, they feel very similar to the reactions

(12:49):
I get as a vegan. So I guess my story
about my straight edge by ex boyfriend is because we
had so many arguments about this that that always played
along this line. And so like if you're someone who
who is like a PRECV again and not like we're
gonna get into that later, but you know this, you
know this idea that anybody can live the vegan lifestyle,
anybody can do it, and I think it, I think
it overlooks the idea that there are people who already,

(13:11):
like live in food deserts, who already are food insecure,
and those people tend to be low income or people
of color, and that when you tell those folks like, well,
the animals, you know you need to not you need
to only eat this bag of rice because the animals
like that to me seems warped. And I've I've seen that.
I've seen that argument play out, and I am so
uncomfortable with it. And I would also never want to

(13:32):
put an animal's life over the life of human Like
the way we treat some animals in this country, like
free range whatever can in some ways be acknowledged or
compared to the way we treat people human beings on
this planet in a horrible way. So I'm not to say,
like we should compare those atrocities, you know what I mean,
Like if we talk about the history of racism or sexism,

(13:56):
or you know, let's compare our wounds and compare the
who's more oppressed, Like I don't want animals to measure.
I'm still here to say humans do have a higher
moral ground, you know what I mean, Like I think
human atrocities do get to take the cake. But I
just want to say, like to use my privilege effectively,
I'd like to use my privilege to stand up for
animals where I can not at the cost of standing

(14:19):
up for other people. But in addition to so, there's
lots of it. And speaking of people, there's a human
case to be made for veganism two, and that boils
down to all the environmental concerns that come with food production.
So this is a quote um from Hank roth Rothger
Burger of Bellarmine University in Louisville, Louisville, Kentucky, Okay, which

(14:42):
does not strike me as the most vegan friendly place
the world. So he says meat eating contributes more to
global warming than even auto emissions. And he cites a
report by the United Nations in a two thousand and
eight report by the Pew Commission on Industrial Farm and
Production that concluded that farmed animals contribute more to global

(15:05):
warming than all transport combined. In two thousand and eight,
a German study concluded that meat eaters contribute seven times
as much green greenhouse gas emissions as vegans. And I
know it's like a little bit divorced, right, So there's
a few stages of connection here. But when you buy meat,
which you're really putting your dollars behind, it is not

(15:26):
only the slaughterhouse, not only the animals, but all of
the trucking, all of the land use, all of the
feed production, and all of the um industrial sort of
industrial process behind meat production in this country. That is

(15:47):
really not good for our environment. But I guess I mean,
I I I buy that, but part of me wonders,
how could that. I find it curious that that impact
is so oversized, because I mean, there are plenty of industry, like,
you know, the cut flower industry, things like that. I
would I would imagine that they would be a similar

(16:07):
you know, environmental impact, but I guess not like that's
I found that to be very surprising. I know I
found it surprising too, And I feel like there is
there's just a lot of waste involved in that industry,
and it's not you know, it's not to say that
there aren't a lot of jobs in that industry. You too,
So someone else I can hear the critics already pointing
to the fact that there are jobs that why do

(16:28):
you hate job creation? I know why. So it's just
I think the way we look at this and we
think of how meat production has been commercialized today versus
good old fashioned hunting and gathering, and I have very
different personal beliefs around good old fashioned hunting and gathering.
I also realized it's not practical for our country of

(16:48):
the size. I'm not saying we should all go back
to that stage, but you know, I actually my mind
has been turned around on hunting in that I support
conservation via hunting and a lot of different ways too,
but that's a whole other podcast. Um. Bottom line is
there's lots of reasons why people go vegan, animal rights
or one of them environmental concerns or another. Health and
budgetary benefits were huge for me. I found very compelling

(17:11):
research that shows that you know, consuming too mention meat
is bad for you straight up, like consuming the amount
of meat that we consume today is far greater than
any other time in history, you know, thinking about access
to meat, which Christen and Caroline covered very well in
the historical look at vegetarianism that they they had UM.
But also I found that my monthly expenditures were less,

(17:33):
so it was good for my budget, it was good
for my health. I felt better um with a few
asterixes which we'll talk about in a second, which is
supplements that I think are very important. Yeah. I've often
been told if you want to try veganism, that if
you do it for like a week or a month
or something, that you will find health benefits. And it's
too bad that when I tried it, I was like
living in an otherwise very healthy life. So I didn't

(17:56):
get any of those benefits, but they say that even
if you do it for a week, that week you
will feel more energetic or have interests more healthy. Yeah, well,
I've heard about like neatless mondays. You know, there's like
ways that we can all cut down on the amount
of meat we're eating because too much is not good
for you. And I'm not saying you have to become
totally vegan, but a plant based diet is like has
been proven um to to be very good for you.

(18:19):
And if we went into all the health benefits on
this podcast, I swear we wouldn't have time to cover
anything else. There's a lot of great research driven medical reasons.
But the final reason I want to cover before we
take a break, because I know we're we're gathering on
here is feminism. Feminism, so I didn't always make this
connection right away. What feminism stands for in a lot

(18:41):
of ways is to see a woman is a whole
human being and not a sum of her parts. To
not feel objectified for your thighs perhaps, or your legs
or the hoofs that you might have. So what we're
buying when we're looking in the meat aisle is an
object that we're pretending is not part of an animal.
It's dehumanizing to you those terms and air quotes for

(19:01):
an animal. Right, Bacon is not bacon. Bacon is a
pig rear end. But if we've called it a pig
rear end now and buy it. Yeah, I mean, this
is so familiar to me, and this is this is
one of my earliest um introductions to this kind of thinking.
So I was women's studies minor in college, and so
I took a lot of classes along these lines, and
I took a class on echo feminism, and I'll never

(19:22):
forget I was so I think back to that. I
was so defensive in that class. Basically, eco feminism was
this idea that the environment and women are intrinsically linked,
and so one will not be free but that the other.
And so if you if women are are if if
we are not respecting the environment, then these av we

(19:42):
were not respecting women, and that they're combined. And I
remember thinking, I don't think I've ever had a more
viscerally like I thought that was such a bs that
I was angry, that I was angry. I was angry
for weeks about it, and part of me looking back.
I mean I also was like nineteen and had an
nose ring and was very strident and blah blah blah.
But and so if it was like if someone was

(20:04):
selling me what feminism was in a way that did
not job what I thought it was. I took that
very personally and was like, very like you can imagine
a nineteen year old. You're talking to nineteen year olds
with nose ring right now. I hope you know that
I was one of you. It's okay if I say it,
so okay. So for me, this is like really painting
the camera back. So I know from doing research around

(20:26):
this issue that the people who are more likely to
suffer adverse consequences from climate change and climate injustice are
people of color and women. I also know that if
climate or meat eating is an industry that does you know,
real damage to the environment, what you're actually saying, if
you like, you know, take it that far, is that
the meat industry then would have an oversized um negative

(20:49):
impact on people of color and women. Therefore, if feminism
is about, you know, freeing women and folks of color
and folks along the gender spectrum from oppression, then I
can see how they're linked, but I think at the
time that was just too many steps, and I was
very angry. This is like a long logical proof in logic.
It's like a big, really advanced philosophical philosophically philosophy chorus. Geez,

(21:15):
so I hear you, I hear you, and a listener.
Jody actually wrote in and made a connection to feminism
and when it comes to our environment our treatment of
animals very clear when she said is it possible to
be a non vegan feminist? Which I felt immediately threatened,
like you might like I was once a non vegan feminist,

(21:35):
Can I be ever again? She says. The eggon dairy
industry is run off the exploitation of female animals. She writes,
cows are raped slash artificially, inseminated repeatedly, and their offspring
are taken away from them immediately, I might add, and
cows are emotional beings. I might also add that, like
you can actually see them emote. It's sad, okay, whatever

(21:57):
you get it. I care. It's a mean only taken
away from them to have for us to have milk.
Hens are kept in captivity and genetically modified to produce
more eggs. Which is essentially a birthing process and exhausting
for the birds. To think about the lifespan of a
milk a dairy cow. In some dairy farms, In many
many dairy farms, cows are born, they're kept in a cage,

(22:22):
they're inseminated, they're given birth, and that's it. That's their
whole life. Their children are taken away from them right away.
And I think I think people get defensive because they're saying,
don't compare a cattle a woman. I think that's we
really really need to believe that humans are better than animals,

(22:42):
because otherwise we threaten the risk of standing up for
animals at the cost of standing up for people. I
think you're I think that that's so part of it.
I think for me, it's it's just for me. It's
one of those complicated things that I have not fully unpacked.
But I also think it does come back to me
for a little bit um along length of race as
I do. I mean, this is like and this is
might be people, something that people maybe don't know about

(23:05):
folks of color. And this is like a thing that
is a thing in Yeah, it's a thing that might
I know this, but a lot of black folks have
a real discomfort and not all, like certainly not all,
but a lot of black books have a real discomfort
with this idea that for a lot of white people
they see animals or they're more likely to have empathy
for an animal than for a person. And so I

(23:26):
think that that so that's like a very common attitude.
Like I remember seeing this image. I actually think the
image was not real. Is one of those images that
Snopes was like, this is not a real image. But
after Hurricane Katrina, it was this image of a lot
of dogs and cats in a in a plane and
it was like, oh, these are neighborhood pets being flown out.
So that image wasn't real. But I think that the
reason why it was like it was like an early

(23:48):
viral image is because that tapped into this kind of
internal um thing that I think a lot of black
CLOBs feel, where a lot of white people will much
be much more likely to have empathy for an animal
over a black person. And I think that you do
see it in things like you know, where people make
those arguments like you know, obviously things like dog fighting
are are awful and horrible and horrible, but it will

(24:09):
be like, oh, well, Michael Vick killed dogs and this
police officer killed a person, and like, you know, I
didn't even lose his job like things like that, like
and obviously both things are awful, awful things to do.
So I'm not I don't want to be very clear.
I think you're totally right. I feel like this is
nuanced and complex, and I'm so glad to be talking
in this through with you. But I feel like I

(24:30):
need I need a quick break because then when we
come back, let's get I want to talk about why
there aren't more vegan dudes for a set? Can we
were you at dudes? So we're trying to do justice
to a very thorny topic here, which has made clear already.

(24:50):
And Bridget I really appreciate that you're the person I'm
working through all this stuff with them. It's complicated and complicated.
I have complex feelings about it, but I think we
can agree on without a doubt, is that there is
a strong connection in our society, especially in the Western society,
between masculinity and meat, meat, meat and meat meat. Right.

(25:14):
Sometimes you see those ads that like so play up
the connection between masculinity and meat to the point and
I love meat to the point where it's disgusting, right,
I cannot help but call out Arby's right now for yeah,
like that hyper masculine, Like I feel macho just chomping
into this burger at Arby's or maybe even a meat

(25:36):
box for Father's Day that we might have heard before
on this channel. No never, So this this connection between
you know, meat is something that men prepare and eat
and need. And also, like you were, we were talking
off air about grilling being how grilling is. Basically we
made it seem like this like masculine fatherly thing to do,

(25:58):
but like it's this weird it's in a weird way
where it's like, oh that dad man and mcgrill. It's
the only time it's it's appropriate for a man to
wear an apron. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I also think it's
interesting how and we talked a little bit about this
in an episode around whiskey. But um, this idea that
if a woman enjoys meat, that like that is somehouse
sort of like oh, she's doing this like masculine thing.

(26:18):
Like I think that's the sexualized right, Like I think
about these heartiest commercials or if you're not from the South,
they call it Carls Jr. Where it would be like
Paris Hilton writing writing a car, And there's one where
she's writing a mechanical bull while like eating a burger,
and you're thinking, like, are we supposed to want to
have sex with the burger. I'm sure people out there

(26:42):
do want it. There's something for everyone, but yeah, I
think it's totally real. There's definitely a hyper sexualized, like
political conversation around meat in manhood that Carol J. Adams
was really a pioneer, and she wrote a book called
The Sexual Politics of Meat in the nineties that totally
holds up today that talks about this mythology of man

(27:02):
the hunter and masculinity being connected with meat, and I
think that's a big part of the reason why. And
some of the English teenagers who were interviewed about the
rise of a veganism amongst teens, they're like the increase
that we talked about. Um. Even one of the young
men interviewed for that article and The Guardian said, I

(27:24):
think there's definitely a bit of judgment that I get
as a dude who's vegan, Like vegan men are considered
weak or malnourished and that couldn't be farther from the
truth is evidenced by bodybuilders and super athletes who are
plant based athletes. Like you can actually google that hashtag
too and find meatless um athletes out there showing you

(27:45):
that that vegans are just like yeah, and I find
that idea that you know, men, and I'm sure that's true,
that men feel like they are judged as like less
manly if they don't eat meat. I mean, that's a
really clear example of the way that the patriarchy hurts
us all. Men. You know, it doesn't matter if you're
like where you are in the gender spectrum first us all,
and that it's so silly that like your choice to

(28:06):
consume or not consume this thing ties into your your
your manhood or your masculine And I've seen people make
this point, which is could just I mean, it's just
so silly that being a vegan man somehow plays into
your like sexual virility that you know, actually because there's
research that shows too much consumption of meat is connected

(28:27):
to performance issues, know, wing wing right, and so yeah,
so if that totally goes against the science of this
idea that if you if you eat meat, your if
you don't eat meat, your girly man and you you know,
can't satisfy a woman. You know, that goes not only
is that dumb just because it's a it's a dumb thing,
but also it just goes against the science. Well, it

(28:49):
says that there's medical evidence that meat eating does increase
a problem, problems with clogging of the arteries that can
prevent good blood flow to organs, including blood flow to
the one organ you're all thinking right now. And so
there is some connection to erectile dysfunction as as induced

(29:11):
by too much meat. So it couldn't be further from
the truth. There's a book by a very macho article
author who a lot of feminists gave a lot of
rightful grief to when he named his book meat is
for Woosis, Except he didn't use the woes. He used

(29:32):
a p. They're not even really comfortable saying that on air,
but that was his book. He was saying, listen, I
don't want to be a preachy vegan, but here's my
macho book about the benefits of veganism for us all.
What was the what was the fallout from that book
where people, you know, actually, what's been fascinating is he
he was. I was reading a few articles in which
he and Carol J. Adams were interviewed together, which was

(29:53):
funny because they couldn't be farther from each other on
the gender spectrum, And he said, I know the feminists
have given me a lot of grief about the title
of my book, but I stand by it because I've
got men writing me from prison talking about the benefits
of a plant based diet. I've got men who are
um who would never pick up Carol j adams book
The Sexual Politics of Meat who are going vegan because

(30:15):
of the way I've talked to them, and so there's
definitely there's a case to be made for it. But
what's said is that what veganism really is all about
is empathy for animals. And when we say that men
can't be empathic creatures without their manhood being called into question,
we're doing are all a disservice? Like everyone loses in
that scenario. Yeah, yeah, So I'd love to hear from

(30:35):
men who are vegans. I know that when I started
eating less meat. What was funny is previously Brad, whenever
he would cook for us read the boom Uh. He
often didn't cook meat, and I would give him a
little bit of grief about it, saying, where's the protein
in this meal? Because I'm very nutritionally conscious and health
conscious and he's all about efficiency when he cooks dinner,

(30:57):
which is cool, like I've become a much more efficient cook.
But but I was a little bit giving him some
guff and he would say to me, you don't need
as much approtein as you think you do, and he
was right, Yeah, that's definitely true. And when I became vegan,
people asked, Brad, what do you think about this? Poor
Brad Emily's gone vegan. You must be suffering as a result,

(31:17):
which I find really really annoying. That's offensive, super offensive,
and people don't think it is. And he would be like, what,
you know, I didn't even cook that much meat beforehand,
and and you know, I'm not going to attest to
his virility on air. Now I'm sweating again. Here we go.

(31:38):
But um, but I just think it's important to note
is that like Brad and I both eat relatively vegan
throughout whatever, Like I'm much more purposefully vegan than he is.
But um, it's tough, like he would never go around
using that label to describe himself. And I know a
lot of men who are hesitant to come out as
we Well, you just brought up a point that I

(31:59):
think I want to men for your own safety, which
is that, in my experience, sometimes people do you get
very hung up on the label of vegan. And I
think I know that you yourself like you eat mostly vegan,
but you know sometimes you don't. Yeah, um, And so
I just don't want people to be like she said
she was vegan and I saw a picture of her
on Instagram with and I'm not sure I'll be vegan forever.

(32:20):
You know why, Let's talk about why should we take
a break first, Yeah, let's take a quick break, and
then I want to hear why you might not be
vegan for much longer? Okay, well forever forever? All right, Okay,
we'll be right back. So you're just telling us how

(32:41):
you might not be vegan forever? And why is that? Yeah?
So here's my my thing that I come back to
with veganism is that it's about intention, the intention behind
vegan life, the vegan lifestyle, which I think is beautifully
explained by that Vegan Society definition we brought up at
the very beginning is if you know doing what is

(33:01):
possible and practical to stand up for animals, and possible
and practical means different things to different people. And for
many folks out there, myself included, food deprivation or deprivation
in your diet can be a really dangerous thing. And
I'm talking about disordered eating. I'm talking about how veganism

(33:24):
can be a trigger for women who have overcome eating disorders.
I've dabbled, you know what I mean. I was a
college woman at one point around by a bunch of
waives at my alma mater, feeling like you know, I'm
I'm a larger woman in that I am an athletic,
athletically built woman. Waife was never in the cards from

(33:44):
a genetically And I remember dealing with somebody image issues myself,
like I think almost everyone has. And for me, dieting
or restrictive eating with the intent of weight loss or
depriving your off when you're feeling hungry can be really
a slippery slope. And I think I never if I'm

(34:08):
hungry and I have no options, I have no practical
or possible way to be vegan, and I'm younger, I'm
going to eat whatever I can. Yeah, I mean I
definitely I that resonates with me. I dated someone who
I am fairly certain was using veganism as a way
to mask disordered eating, and I think it gave this
very convenient excuse to kind of have that be something

(34:31):
you know that was going on heard for eating it
can be not certainly not for all. And I don't
even I don't know, you know, I don't know the
numbers behind it. But so that was something that I
and I think that you know, if you have dealt
with disordered eating, this idea of you know, restricting yourself
this or re setting yourself that like that can feel familiar,
and I think veganism can offer a a an avenue

(34:55):
for to do that in a way that it is
less obvious, right right, right right, And I think it
all comes back to your in mention behind it. Don't
become a vegan to lose weight, y'all, don't. It's like
not actually a guarantee. It's really not that, it's not
it's not the be all outcome. I feel like I
have a very positive body image of that. I'm like
really happy with my body is my one and only
right now. But part of the reasons that I um,

(35:18):
I feel like the way I eat my diet right
now is helping me maintain a healthy weight has very
little to do with veganism and has more to do
with a genetics be um, my active physical lifestyle, the
sort of things I do for physical fitness purposes. And
then see you can the food I eat is nutritious

(35:39):
as much as it can be. Although I have a
big sweet tooth and love lots of candy. But you
can eat vegan and still eat garbage, you know. I mean,
when I'm a vegan, I mostly ate French fries exactly exactly.
The potato chip and French fried vegan is real. It's
just like the pizza and pasta vegetarians was exactly that
kind of I mean, I've made crappy food choices for
most of my adult life. Well, I I love I

(36:01):
love food, and I refused to sacrifice flavor for veganism.
If I refused to um risk sort of disordered eating,
which can be a slippery slope. And I think there's
been a lot of articles I stumbled across in relationship
to this rise in veganism in the United Kingdom, uh
that I think are worth mentioning. So one one quote

(36:23):
I found really compelling is a health expert saying, it's
one thing when a fully grown adult goes vegan, but
it's another thing entirely when a still developing teenager tries it,
says Eating Disorders counselor Stephanie Moore. And in my opinion,
the fad for veganism among girls is a huge and
growing problem. And it's a problem because a teenage girls

(36:46):
are highly at risk for disordered eating and negative body
images because their bodies are changing. Although I would say
there's plenty of adult adult people out there who also
struggle with disordered eating. Um, but this sort of pinterest
perfect life style, this clean eating as a fad, is
also a miss categorization of you know, you can't feel

(37:08):
clean or dirty based on veganism alone, Like feeling like
a dirty person for eating food is a very dangerous thought.
I mean, that's not how bodies work. And this idea
that um you brought up earlier, this idea that if
you are a woman who gets her does not know
it's no longer menstruating, that means that you have hit

(37:31):
some sort of cleanness peak, that your body is so clean,
that you're no longer flushing out these toxins every month,
which is just bunk. That's just bad science. And think
none of that is real, you know, that's how it works.
Very problematic and controversial. These two vloggers on YouTube. There's
a YouTube video called how I Lost my period on
a raw Vegan diet, which takes it a little like

(37:54):
way too far, more than too far, there were too um.
One of them is Freely the Banana Girl, who's very
very popular online, and another leading vegan says a non
menstruating body indicates the body is clean and again clean
living here is brought up a sort of a mantle
of perfectionism, and that is a big old nope. All

(38:18):
of that is, None of that is real. All of
that is garbage. Periods are not chronically missing a period
can be serious cause for concern, go see a doctor.
And it's also a sign that you're you're at an
unhealthy low body weight and that your body fat is
so low that you're at risk of lots of health problems,
one of which has to do with reproductive health. So

(38:39):
that makes me so angry. I mean, I I see that,
I see that online a lot. This idea of with
women and it's it's it's toxic and awful, this idea
that some bodies are clean and some are not. But
there's this thing going around on Instagram where it was like,
if you were a woman, show a picture of your
underpants to show that there was no that you weren't um,
you know, secreting any thing, and that that meant that

(39:01):
you were like very clean. Like I'm not kidding, looking up.
I love Amy Schumer's bit you're looking at your underwear. Yeah,
so's I can't even repeat it, y'all google it. It's
really funny. Um. But yeah, So this idea that somebody's
bodies like body secret discharges discharges honestly, like I think,
I don't want to tell you what my situation looks

(39:23):
like after a long day, but use your imagination. That's normal.
That's normal. And this idea that somebodies that don't do
you know, this very natural thing like sweating isn't or whatever.
I think that we tell women that and it comes
from this place of like shame about women's bodies, and
it's it's so awful. Yes, And there's a lot of

(39:44):
ways in which being a vegan can be unhealthy. There's
there are ways where it can be a part of
a mental disordered, like disordered eating um and an excuse
to just get your mom off your back when you're
really just trying to never eat again UM. But also
just attempting the vegan lifestyle can be UM nutritionally dangerous too,

(40:04):
And I learned this the hard way. I had to.
I had to do more homework than I thought I
had to, because your body loses a lot of enzymes
that go into digestion, so that meant I needed to
start taking probiotic supplements and drinking a boatload of kombucha,
which is also a very privileged thing because kombucha is expensive.

(40:25):
And I even looked into making my own kambucha, y'all.
That is hard to do. And if you think meat
production is gross, I don't want to touch a scoby, y'all.
I mean it's do you notice scobie, the gelatinous thing
at the top. It's like a living mushroom basically at
the top of a jar of fermenting tea that turns
into kabucha. I love me some kambucha, but I don't

(40:45):
want to see how that sausage is may either remember
the first time I had kombucha, I thought if somebody
had a bottle of it in their fridge, and I
thought it was like it was like brightly colored. I
thought it was gonna be like it a je It
is basically tastes like vinegar, acidic, uh like t but
it's natural, it's good free, it's full of probiotics. Turns
out probiotics are good bacteria you need in your gut.

(41:08):
And I have learned as a vegan not only do
any probatics supplements, but I also really need to be
twelve supplements. Um, I'm still worried about my iron intake.
And you know, you just have to be really mindful
about where you're getting all your vitamins and minerals and
all the protein. You actually do need to be happy
and healthy and environment a position where I can help

(41:29):
my fellow animals on this planet out and not support
an industry I don't like. Like then I feel really
I feel really good about it. But God forbid? Can
we can we talk about the preachy vegan vegan? Well?
I yeah, I am definitely guilty of perpetuating the preachy
vegan because I know some preachy vegans You're not one
of them, but I do. I have experienced. I am

(41:50):
a covert vegan. This is a big scary step. I
didn't want to do this episode, Bridget. Do you remember
I was like, I don't want to come out as
a vegan in a public way. People are gonna hate
me because it is easy to hate on vegans. Why
why is it so funny? Why I don't get it.
I mean, I think I do mean basic, There these
things in society, like people who do CrossFit. I don't know,

(42:11):
there are these things that are like very easy to
make fun of it. I don't know, why do you
do cross fit? I'm not making fun of you. I
am just saying that it's easy to make fun of you.
I'm not making fun of you, but it is easy.
Look it up. Yeah. So I want to also acknowledge
that we had a really wonderful UM listener right in
from Her name is Margaret. She said she she gives

(42:32):
us this idea to begin with. Actually, Margaret, thanks Margaret
for the She talks about the benefits of veganism, how
she felt better, how she learned so much about what
goes into our food and products, which we barely even
touched upon. But veganism is not just about food, is
also about the products you buy and all that stuff.
But she goes, being a vegan is hard. Being a

(42:53):
female vegan is even harder. I never intended to become
a quote hippie on this journey, but due to our sis,
siety and how we create products, I might as well
be called one. Stereotypes surrounding vegans are hippies. And she goes,
these labels have such a negative connotation. Uh, you know,
the judgment others give you is crazy. And when she

(43:15):
said that, I wrote back to her saying, girl, yes,
I feel like the minute I dare say the word vegan,
people are have like free range jump all over my
case for being kind of a yuppie or threatening their lifestyle.
There's this like sense of judgment that is implied that
every vegan is a quote preachy vegan and to be

(43:37):
a preachy vegan and somehow bad. And I think all
of that is undo. Yeah, I mean I think it's
I think it really can be cultural. Like I think
that the same way that like that wouldy Allen joke like, oh,
I'll have the He goes to California and it's like
I'll have the alfalfa sprout in the plate of mashed yeast, right,
Like I think that vegan might be think I think
it may be any Hall, although he's a terrible person,

(43:59):
so we talk about I don't even want to quote
them because screw you with Allen um. But you know,
I think, but I think that there can con sider
be a cultural marker around it where veganism is that
new thing where it used to be in the seventies
health food fads. You know. I think that this is
one of those things that I think becomes very popular

(44:19):
with a very specific audience, and it can become a
shorthand for um, you know, like perceived privilege, the same
way like avocado toast I think now and like lattees
what I have for breakfast? Oh I love avocado toast.
That eat it. I used to have a sticker that
said avocado toast on my laptop because I love it
so much. I can't believe it once was privileged enough

(44:42):
to be in that to make the cut. Yeah, because
you've got some really great that you used that real
estate wisely, I got some motifs going. But yeah, so
I think that it's easy It's one of those things
that it's easy to be like, oh, this is a
specific kind of person from a specific you know, timemic,
and there's a lot of privilege wrapped up in there,
and it feels don't you feel like it feels threatening,

(45:05):
like why aren't you a vegan? Whenever I come out
as vegan, it seems that people around me assume what
I'm actually saying is why do you feel like it's
okay to not be I think that's totally a perception,
not anyone's, well, at least it's not my intent. And
here's the thing. I am grateful to those preachy vegans
who helped share information with me without knowing that they

(45:27):
were doing so that helped me learn about the industry. Yeah,
I mean I think that you're so right. I also
think it's interesting what things in our society that people
abstain from. Where if you tell them you're, you know,
I don't eat me, I don't drink that, they're like, oh,
you don't like that. It's not just because if I
was like, oh, I don't do cract right, I would

(45:49):
be like, yeah, I don't. I don't watch friends why
you know. So there's like neutrals, not just like obviously
you know agreements, yeah, but it's it's it's interesting how
when you say you don't eat meat, it's typically a
convert or you're a vegan. There's typically some conversation, whether
it's from people asking questions about why or from people
feeling like threatened. It's never just like okay, I literally

(46:11):
go to great links to not tell waiters even but
I'm vegan. I'll be like, um, can I can you
keep this off of that? Or I'll ask for substitutions.
And then finally, I was like going back and forth
with some waiter recently this weekend who was trying to
give me alternative suggestions, and I said, I'm a vegan.
You know, I kind of like was almost embarrassed to say,

(46:32):
because I know the the cultural stereotypical backlashes there. It's
it's really a weird thing because you don't want to
be the person that's like, do you have any vegan options? Well,
I don't want to be that girl, when in reality,
um companies everywhere are making vegan options way more clearly
available because of the demand and because it sells, And
I think that's actually a really good thing. I'm thinking

(46:53):
of um, not all Bompain, but other French fast to
go restaurants, all red branding. Yet one might well call
it but pret a manger, as we Americans call it,
have gone to great lengths to basically brand themselves as
we go to vegan. They do some good vegan sandwiches
and they label them as you know, I think their

(47:14):
window decore currently says for vegans and vegetarians and everyone.
So as a non vegan, I had to sort of
go through a transformation where I was okay with vegan food.
I live next to a really really popular vegan bakery
called Sticky Fingers here. It's amazing, it is really good.
But I remember whenever anybody would bring me their vegan cupcakes.
For a while, I was like, vegan, I don't want thieves,

(47:35):
and then like eventually it's like, you know, I had
to just accept that they are good. What's funny is
that Brad has witnessed I'm a big baker. He's witnessed
me baking him his favorite cakes and recipes pre and
post vegan, and we agree that there are certain recipes
that one made vegan, which is easy to do, y'all.
We can talk about that, but when made vegan are better.
Much has been surprising. Um, this go to chocolate cake

(47:59):
of line. I substitute the eggs with chia seeds. You
can do like a chia egg another very, you just
rolled your eyes. I was rolling my eyes with something else,
I said she And then, um, you can make buttermelk
by taking almond milk and putting lemon juice in it,
and it kind of curdls in this way. That's an equivalency, okay,

(48:21):
and the cake comes out better. I'm telling you, I
made this amazing. We have the taste test this. This
is a great excuse yea follow up episode where we
taste test vegan. I love this is non vegan. You
can see the is it the great American baker the
cupcake Wars cupcake Wars? Oh? Was that her? So? She
was like the first vegan baker they had on. Was

(48:42):
in a competition against two other cupcake bakers, as you
might know if you're an avid cupcake baker fan like me,
and she won, and she was like, this is a
victory for vegans everywhere. Was like, anyway, I'm trying not
to make I want to make a joke, but I
shouldn't want. I'm just saying I think there's a lot
more vegans out there than we know, and I hope

(49:03):
that it's not just a basic white girl thing. I
really do. I think that's part of it is that
it's like this Instagram clean eating, zero period, zero body
weight type thing, which is like, I definitely a far
far from zero body way like or zero body fat
is what I've been right, right, So, and I think
I think I actually see vegnis and getting more popular

(49:24):
with um black folks, and I really see that a
lot um And so I think I think that I
do think that maybe it has grounding in this sort
of like Instagram, Pinterest, clean eating, getting up early, going
to the farmers market, riding, riding or you know, bike
with a basket, this sort of like ideal perfection lifestyle.
But I see it moving away from here, which is

(49:44):
probably better for me too. Yeah. Yeah, but listen, I
don't want to make it sound like, you know, I'm
being a sheepish vegan here pun fully intended, um, but
you know, I want to acknowl that for me, going
vegan definitely came with some weird backlash and weird opinions

(50:05):
from unsolicited like people who found my veganism somehow offensive. Um,
like what do you mean? Like my mom was like,
what am I going to cook you? Yeah? But um,
you know, and there are ways in which this can
be used as a crutch for a neating disorder, but
there's like tons of benefits and for me personally, I

(50:25):
actually just had my one year annual physical with my doctor,
which was just about Um, you know, I got blood
work done just about a year ago, right before a
year and a half ago, right before I went vegan,
went vegan a month later, and now a year and
a half veganism has done nothing but great things to
my body personally. So from a health standpoint, um, you know,

(50:49):
I didn't experience any negative effects. I take supplements to
make sure I get all the probiotics I need and
be twelve supplements to make sure I'm not uh, you know,
missing out on an nutrients. But you know, everybody is
different in the most literal sense. You know, biodiversity is
something you wanted to keep in mind when figuring out
what kind of diet works for you. Personally, I am

(51:11):
made to run on sugar. Maybe I'm like made to
run on simple carbohydrates, and I think that you're a hummingbird.
I'm a total hummingbird. I as I eat a high
chew right now on air, which I'm unpeeling. But um,
you know, the veganism really is the opposite of catosis,
which is, you know, the Atkins diet, which is really
protein heavy and protein focused instead of burning protein for

(51:35):
fuel and basically burning simple carbohydrates. Yeah, bread and um
sugars and for me, like fruits, vegetables, carbs, all of
those things got along really well with my body. And
I just want to make it clear that I am unabashedly,
you know, pleased with how veganism has gone over for
myself physiologically. And it felt really good to look back

(51:59):
on the end of last year and think, wow, like,
for the vast majority of this year, I did not
contribute to an industry I really fundamentally disagree with, and
I don't miss it, Like I like being able to
live true to my values in that way, I think.
But there are some qualms that people have with veganism,
but for myself personally, I found it to be a
very rewarding lifestyle that had very few negative ramifications. And

(52:23):
I just want to make that space for other vegans
who are listening to this, like very unapologetic, you know,
to just be clear that I think that that personally,
I've very much enjoyed this. So yeah, I want to
hear you know, as a meat eater, I want to
hear all of y'all's like, what do you think? Like,
I want to hear from meat eaters. What do you
think about this? Do you want to go vegan but

(52:43):
you just love your you know, um per tenderloin too much?
Do you think veganism is bs? What do you think
of echo feminism? What do you think this idea that
to be a good feminist it might make sense to
stop eating meat. I'm very curious. Yeah, So hit us
up on the Graham at stuff I've never told you.
You can send us an email at mom stuff at
has stuff works dot com, and you can of course

(53:06):
talk to us on Facebook and hit us up on
Twitter at mom Stuff podcast. We cannot wait to hear
from you.