What are Crisis Pregnancy Centers?

Maya Kroth stops by to take us inside a crisis pregnancy center.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey, this is Annie Ads and Famanza and welcome to
Stuff I've Never told your production of I Heart Radio's
House Stuff Works. In today's episode, we're going to be
discussing something that I think, um, with all of the

(00:25):
news coming out, might be on some people's minds, it
is important to discuss and to discuss it, and it's
being crisis pregnancy centers. We are joined by Maya. Would
you like to introduce yourself and tell the listeners a
little bit about yourself? Nih, Yeah, thank you so much
for having me on. My name is Maya Kraft. I've
been a journalist for about fifteen years, but I'm sort

(00:46):
of new to Atlanta. I'm from California originally, and I
landed in Atlanta about a year and a half ago
with kind of which I think was kind of an
interesting moment in um the South, you know, changing demographics
of the South and and it's an especially interesting place
to be at this moment. So um, when my editor

(01:08):
approached me to write this story about crisis pregnancy centers
with everything that was going on with the changing reproductive
rights landscape, I jumped on the opportunity. Yes, and we
are so glad to have you here because UM, your
piece and medium was excellently done. UM. And it's called
Inside the Shadow Clinics for listeners who want to look
it up. And as you were writing it, it it was

(01:30):
around the time that Brett Kavanaugh was being confirmed for
the Supreme Court. And as we record this now, several
states are passing very restrictive abortion laws, ultimately with the
goal of overturning Roe v. Wade. So we thought it
would be good time to talk about it. But let's
start with the basics. What are crisis pregnancy centers, Yeah,

(01:51):
crisis pregnancy centers. They're also sometimes called pregnancy resource centers.
These are centers that are run by faith based groups UM,
that basically exist to talk women out of having an abortion. UM.
From the outside, they might look like a traditional women's
health clinic. Some of them even have innocuous names like

(02:12):
the Women's Clinic, UM. But when you get in there,
you see a lot of Christian literature and the lobby
so UM. These centers often masquerade as traditional women's healthcare clinics,
but when you dig a little deeper, you realize that's
not what they are. A lot of times they open
up right across the street from a planned parenthood, although

(02:33):
in states like Georgia where there are so few abortion clinics, Uh,
they'll just open up anywhere that you might find women
who might be considering an abortion, college, campuses, that kind
of thing. Mm hmm. And I know that. Um a
while back, John Oliver did a piece of them, and
they you kind of focus a little bit on the vans,
like they all move around in vans and park outside.

(02:56):
Oh yeah, there's one that I think parks out front
of a church in hate Bill. Yeah. I tried to
go and catch it, but it wasn't it wasn't keeping
regular hours. They're really regularly available in like a lot
of suburban areas. I found because I as I worked
in de facts and as I worked with state government stuff,
and in the state of Georgia, they kind of leaned
towards faith based, ah, faith based, evidence based of resources,

(03:22):
and there are a lot almost per counting, I think,
and it's really available as an access resource foremost teenage girl. Yeah,
they're definitely much more prevalent in Georgia than a planned
parenthood for example, or any other kind of traditional women
selth clinic that provides abortion services. Yeah, and that's a
good segue into my next question, which is, do you

(03:43):
have any numbers around this? Yeah, there's actually one of
the researchers I interviewed from my piece is this woman
named Andreas Schwartz and Drew ber from the University of Georgia.
She's put together a map of crisis pregnancy centers across
the United States in an effort to sort of help
women identify is this a crisis pregnancy center or is
this a traditional medical clinic where I'm going to find

(04:04):
sort of more unbiased medical information. Um. And the numbers
that she came up with were somewhere around crisis pregnancy
centers in the United States. And just for some perspective,
that's about three times the number of abortion clinics in
the country. So they're outnumbering abortion clinics three to one.
In places like Georgia, it's more like ten to one. Wow. Um.

(04:28):
And I'm wondering compared to the states that we talked
about earlier when we had that episode of about abortion,
there are several states don't have one abortion clinic or
and then you compared to how I wonder how many
they have of those types of crisis centers. Yeah, yeah,
and one thing. Like you said, they do typically look
like in a lot of cases, like an abortion clinic,

(04:51):
and you might go in and they might be the
staff there might be wearing like scrubs or some kind
of medical attire um. But it is typically run by volunteers. Correct,
It depends. Some of these places are quite well funded.
They have budgets over a million dollars a year. Others
are shoe string operations that are basically the extension of

(05:14):
the local church. And you might have a couple young people,
you know, who are basically youth pastor you know, kind
of like that sort of level um, you know, earning
a part time salary to staff these centers. So it
really runs the gamut. And you you spoke to someone
who worked that one in Georgia, correct, I did. Yeah.
It was hard to get access to these crisis pregnancy centers.

(05:37):
They're not very media friendly. I wonder why. But there
was one in Jonesboro, Georgia where I was able to
spend some time with the two women who staff it
and learn a little bit about what goes on there,
what kind of services they offer, what their facilities look like,
and um, what their point of view is on on
what they're doing. Um, it was really it was really illuminating.

(06:00):
But I think the one thing that struck me most
was how young, how young these people were, and how
far removed they were from any kind of medical training.
You know, they were very passionate about their faith, and
that's definitely the place where they were coming from, right.
I remember in your PC she wrote about how didn't

(06:21):
you show one of them like a website? And he said,
this is a crisis pregnancy center website and he said
like abortion and there several times and she was like,
are you sure. Yeah. I thought it was a great
sort of snapshot of how this industry is changing, right,
because the crisis pregnancy centers have been around a long time.
I'm sure everybody has driven down the freeway past one
of these billboards. It's like Pregnant Scared called this eight

(06:43):
hundred number. That's been around forever, and it's kind of
an older model of crisis pregnancy centers. The new thing
is obscuring the link between the religious organization that usually
backs these centers and making them look more like medical clinics.
So the center that I visited was much more this
old model. Um, it had one of those billboards out

(07:06):
over the Boulevard and Jones Borough, and that's how they
got I think most people through the door. So we
I had her pull up the website for one of
these kind of more twenty first century, more savvy crisis
pregnancy centers where you could not tell, like even if
you were like a media scholar looking at this website,
you couldn't tell that it's not an abortion clinic. You know,
it says want an abortion, schedule an appointment today and

(07:29):
click here. Um, and you know, she and I spent
some time looking at this website and she didn't believe
me that it was a crisis pregnancy center. So it's
really you know, even people within the industry don't entirely
know the true motivations of these things. So what was
her response was just like, no, that's not right, Like
that was just her whole she she personally was, um,

(07:49):
not cool with being that misleading. But then I asked her,
I said, you know, if you're so upfront about, you
know the fact that you're a Christian ministry that's just
providing alternative information, why don't you say Christian pregnancy counseling
on your sign? Why do you just say, pregnancy center.
I shouldn't have a great answer for that. Um, but

(08:10):
this isn't about an individual. This is a big, well
funded network of centers all across the country that are
you know, conducting this coordinated campaign to change the conversation
around abortion right and UM there are three nationwide networks corrects. Yeah,
there are three. UM Care net is the main one,

(08:33):
NIFLA is another, and Heartbeat International. Um. Yeah, so they
they run a majority of these centers, or the centers
are affiliated with those networks. And UM there's also a
company called Heritage House that provides a lot of the
pamphlets and materials that you'll find in these centers. UM,

(08:54):
plastic models of a uterus with showing different stages of
fetal development. Um. All these pamphlets purportedly physician approved information
about abortion that turns out to be quite misleading, if
not outright false. Yeah, and UM that's something that we
should say if we haven't already. But they're largely unregulated,

(09:17):
UM facilities, and they promise all sorts of things some
of them do. Could you go into that for a
little bit. Yeah. Usually what gets people in the door
is the free pregnancy test and free ultrasound. A lot
of times, I think women need proof of pregnancy in
order to get certain benefits from the state. UM, so
that's what gets people in the door. But a lot

(09:40):
of times the pregnancy tests that they're offering are not
any more sophisticated than what you'd buy at the drug
store for a couple of bucks. UM, and the ultrasounds
are most of the time, these are not licensed sonographers
that can diagnose anything if you have an abnormality in
your pregnancy, or even tell how far along you are. U.
It's just sort of to get you to see this

(10:03):
image and have that emotional moment of potentially hearing a heartbeat. Um.
It's there's really not a lot of medical merit to
the ultrasounds that some of these centers might be doing,
but that doesn't stop them from I think there's sevent
of crisis pregnancy centers own an ultrasound machine. Yeah, And
I was reading accounts from women who have been and

(10:23):
said that, Um, there's a lot of stress of like
oh mommy, you know, like already trying to make that
make you feel that emotional connection. Definitely, one of the
first things that happens if you walk into the crisis
pregnancy center that I was spending time with in Jonesboro.
Is you get ushered into a counseling room where you
sit with one of the counselors and talk about your

(10:44):
concerns about your pregnancy, and they will hand you a
little baby hat that has been hand knit by one
of the church volunteers and have you hold it and
touch it and sort of get a sense for the warm,
fuzzy relationship that you might be able to have with
your baby. You know, it's it's definitely an emotional appeal. Wow.
So let's go further along with that for a second. Um,

(11:06):
say I'm a woman and I walk into one of
these CPCs crisis pegnancy center. What can I expect? What
will happen? Um? Well, it depends. If you're going to
one of these older school places, you might see over
religious symbol you might see crosses on the wall and
biblical music playing in the lobby. You'll definitely see a

(11:27):
lot of pamphlets in the waiting room telling you about
questionable things like post abortion trauma syndrome or the link
between breast cancer and abortion. Um. These very misleading literature.
If you're in one of these more medicalized places. It
might be indistinguishable from a medical clinic. You might see

(11:48):
a sonographer wandering around in scrubs, you know, you might
not see any religious symbolism at all. Um. So it
really depends. It's it's not always clear. Yeah, and that
is probably the biggest criticism of these facilities is that
they do mislead and they provide false information and then

(12:11):
try to pass themselves off as a legitimate medical facility
or a clinic. Um. Do you have any specific examples
around that. I know you mentioned like kind of not
well supported medical claim shall we say, but any other
examples like that. Um? Yeah, Well it was interesting. A
lot of the people I tried to interview for this

(12:31):
piece conducted themselves as though they were medical professionals, and
some of them actually were, and they said they couldn't
talk to me because of hipp ap privacy. So they're
kind of entering this really interesting gray area between are
you a medical clinic subject those kind of regulations or not? Um.

(12:52):
Misleading medical claims? Yeah, I mean the literature was full
of um things that that have just been proven to
e falls. There's pamphlets in the lobby that imply that
a fetus can feel pain as early as six weeks.
There's there's no medical evidence to support that. Um, there
are pamphlets around the link between abortion and breast cancer

(13:14):
that's kind of harped on a lot in the anti
abortion community. There's no evidence for that. I mentioned before,
post abortion trauma syndrome, no evidence for that either, So
answer your question or um, I I also found examples
of depression, drug abuse, increased chance of future miscarriage and

(13:36):
or infertility, And yeah, none of that is supported by research. UM.
Heartbeat International has these suggested scripts. That's one of the
things that from there is of suicidal behaviors may be
attributed to abortion. So things like that, Yeah, definitely. And
and what's interesting is there's some, um, you know, within

(14:00):
these circles, there are some people who tour the church
circuit kind of giving talks about the abortion they almost
had or the abortion they did have and how guilty
they felt about it. So, UM, there's there's definitely conversation
around it within the CPC community that it's not just
if you've had an abortion, you're a sinner. You know,
a lot of times it's embracing people who have had

(14:22):
previous abortions and trying to get them UM to to
make a different decision by telling these stories of how
rough it's been for these other women and UM, I
I also read, just to go back to this sort
of misleading aspect of it is that they might make
you wait hours for pregnancy test which six minutes UM,

(14:44):
so that they can they have more time to give
you this information, and they might ask questions like was
there a loving Christian boyfriend who would make a great
dead UM? Did I have a kind do I have
kind supportive parents would be excited by the idea of
a grandchild? Yeah, yeah, I noticed. There definitely seemed to
be a lot of effort to get the men involved

(15:06):
in these decisions, to get these fathers to come in
UM and have counseling themselves. There's a big program that
a lot of these pregnancy centers offer which is called
Earn While You Learn, where basically, if they've talked to
you out of having an abortion, you have a baby,
you can come in UM for an hour on a
Tuesday night watch these DVDs about parenting, and some of

(15:29):
them have sort of decent information and some of them
are really out there. UM, and you watch these DVDs.
You do these little homework worksheets, and you earn baby
Bucks and you can earn mommy Bucks and daddy Bucks,
and you redeem these for onesies and car seats and
baby wipes and things that you need if you're a
new mom. Um. So there's definitely an attempt to open

(15:52):
the the whole community. And like you were saying earlier, um,
from the outside, they do appear frequently um like they're
just a medical clinic, and a lot of them will
purposefully use like the same fonts are as planned, parenthed
or something, which is I mean, it's hard not to

(16:13):
see that as misleading. In all, they frequently also used
choice or choose in their name. Um, So it's easy
to see how you might be especially if they're next
to each other. You might just go into the wrong
one or not the one that you intended to go to. Yeah,
and I think something that probably happens more frequently is

(16:36):
not the textbook scenario that you're thinking of, where a
woman just knows she wants an abortion and wanders into
this place. It's people who are a lot more conflicted,
people who don't have a lot of information. Um. And
you know, people who need baby wipes, and so you know,
they come to this pregnancy center and and do these
courses and that's just what they're doing. Um. Yeah, it's

(17:01):
the choice language is used a lot. We're trying to
get women to make a better choice. Right. We have
a little bit more for your listeners, but first we're
gonna pause for a quick bike for word from Responsive

(17:24):
and we're back. Thank you sponsor. UM. I found a
quote from Abby Johnson, who is an anti abortion activist.
We want to appear neutral on the outside. The best
called the best client you ever get is one that
thinks they're walking into an abortion clinic. Yea yeah. And
also a lot of them have been accused of doing
delaying tactics. UM, so that you miss the legal window

(17:47):
for an abortion. Are that maybe by the time you
arrive at the decision, No, I do want an abortion,
it's more complicated and more expensive. Maybe you can't afford
it anymore. Um. Some of them might say that you
can wait and see if you miscarry. There's definitely a
lot of assists placed on on miscarriage, how how common
it is, and you know, you read some of these
pamphlets and you go it's almost like just pray it

(18:09):
away kind of thing like there's, um, yeah, I found
I was surprised by that, the the prevalence of the
information on miscarriage, almost like if if God wants this
pregnancy to go away, you know, there's this avenue. Were
you able to ask the individual staff about those types

(18:30):
of literature why miscarriage is so emphasized. They you know,
they're young women and they're getting these pamphlets from this
centralized organization UM that's coordinating all this several levels above
their head. So when we talked about medical information, you know,
I would say, do you talk to these women about miscarriage?
Do you talk to them about maternal mortality? You know,

(18:52):
black women, the maternal mortality rates are crazy in this
country and in the South especially, UM. And you know,
they said, we're not doctors. We don't that's not that's
not what we do. And that's kind of the rub, right,
That's the crux of the situation, The manipulative tactics like, well,

(19:12):
we can't tell you medical stuff, but we can tell
you morality stuff. Is really easy. This part is easy, right, right.
Another thing that I imagine a lot of people listening
won't find surprising, But let's talk about contraception for um,
did you find that there was any kind of literature
or something about contraception not in the center that I

(19:36):
spent time in? Um? And when I asked about that,
you know, it's commonly said, if you really want to
reduce abortion, give everybody condoms. You know, when the more
contraception there is, the more widely available abortions go down. Right,
And their view was, aren't condoms plentiful everywhere else? Like
it's like you could go outside and its reigning condoms

(19:56):
or something. It wasn't their job, that's not what they're doing. Um,
they can you know, people who want contraception can find
it everywhere, but not here. Okay, I remember, I can't remember.
I think her name was Betty, but she she's involved
in this a lot. And she said that she thought
condoms don't work like the time or it was some
number that was very, very large, and the person said,

(20:18):
I'm pretty sure they're ninety percent effective, and she was like, no,
I don't think so. Um. There was an undercover investigation
into fifty five of Ohio CPCs and it found that
none offered birth control, and they overwhelmingly pushed abstinence. UM.
In fact, a popular used CPC manual says, never counsel

(20:38):
for contraception. UM. So yeah, I mean, I guess that
does make sense in a weird way that they wouldn't
if it's not their thing. But it also at the
same time it seems maybe it should be part of
their thing. I don't know. There's a lot about the
reproductive rights conversation that doesn't make a lot, right, I mean,

(21:01):
kind of like everything else, it's not about preventative, never
about preventative. Yes, take away from the upside um. But
also I found that, um, a lot of CPCs are
encouraged to tell women that birth control causes hair loss,
breast cancer, weight game headaches, and memory loss, and that
condoms are quote ineffective at preventing pregnancy. It's almost like

(21:24):
they're encouraging people to get pregnant and have the baby,
and have the baby, but not help them after that
baby is one or two, maybe even then, not even
before then. The centers I spoke with took a lot
of pride in in the baby closets, you know, and
all the things that they give to new mothers, And
that was evidence that, you know, they do care about

(21:45):
these fetuses outside of you know, or these babies once
they're out in the world. Um, but you're right, it doesn't.
It doesn't extend past a couple of years. And it's
questionable whether that method is is actually helping women or
if it's you know, Andrea Schwartzenderber, who I spoke with
from my piece, as you know, you might some people
might call that coercive. If you're making people will come
in and watch biblical DVDs before giving them baby wipes,

(22:07):
which costs your dollars. You know, it sounds like it
has to they have to earn their way through something
that they were being encouraged and or most forcefubly made
to do. You have to earn to actually provide after
the fact, right, And I think this brings us to
a big question is are they illegal? They certainly seem

(22:28):
to be proliferating at a great pace. But yeah, it's
it's a very interesting time to be watching what's going
on in the courts. A couple of years ago, California
issued a ruling that crisis pregnancy centers were required to
post information in the lobby saying that they don't provide
abortion services. And and listing the location of a nearby

(22:49):
UM center where where women could find those kinds of services.
And um that was struck down by the Supreme Court.
UM Clarence Thomas I think wrote the opinion, and they said, no,
it's an infringement on freedom of speech to make someone
do that. So UM. But it'll be interesting to watch
as they as these centers become more and more medicalized,
if they're going to be subject to the kind of

(23:12):
regulation that medical clinics are are subject to. Absolutely, and
and that decision that you just mentioned that was like
this is happening. It was last summer, Yeah, it's happening now. Um,
and so far like up until now, they stop just
short of being a medical provider on purpose, so they

(23:33):
aren't subject to regulations, they aren't subject to hippo, which
is why I found so interesting that you said you
mentioned that earlier, which means that the info being gathered
it's not confidential. Um. One South Dakota law requires that
women go to a CPC before getting an abortion, and
I believe it's being challenged right now, and that's definitely

(23:54):
the direction that it's moving. In Georgia too, there's there's
state money in Georgia that goes toward trying to steer
women into one of these pregnancy alternative centers, um as
they're trying to make decisions about what to do with
their pregnancy. Um. There was I was reading the like
privacy statement of one of these more misleading medical centers,

(24:18):
and it was very concerning what they do with the
information that they gather, you know, in these very vulnerable
counseling sessions. I'll have to look it up and I
can send it to you. But there was language like
staff can use the information that you tell us privately
and share it with your family, your pastor whoever we

(24:38):
deem you know, important to know this information. That's frightening.
And that's already the back and forth with the fact
that with young girls who are pregnant and allow like
telling and reporting to the parents, which could be another
problematic issue about well, how far does hip cover a
minor and why why why are we not talking about

(25:00):
that as more of a this is an issue if
you really truly believe in hip and privacy, they should
cover all. But at the same time it's not. It's
kind of a I can choose once again, Yeah, um,
and going back to the funding. Do you know, like,
where is the funding coming from? How much funding are
we talking about? This was the most fascinating part of

(25:22):
my research. UM. I was expecting a lot of funding
would be private through churches and you know, individuals who
really feel passionately about this issue. I was surprised to
find out how much funding is coming from your paycheck
and my paycheck. UM. A lot of these crisis pregnancy
centers get federal funding for teaching abstinence only sex education,

(25:44):
and we talked a little bit about the state funding.
In Georgia, a new bill was recently passed. I think
it was two million dollars is going to crisis pregnancy centers,
including some of these worst offenders that are most misleading
on their website. UM. Texas I think a few years
ago committed five million dollars to crisis pregnancy centers. It's

(26:04):
since up to that investment to forty million dollars over
five years. And uh, my favorite, at your local d
m V you can go in and buy a Choose
Life license plate and a portion of those proceeds benefit
crisis pregnancy centers. Wow. Yeah, and I believe it's it's
thirty two states in Washington, d C. Have those choose

(26:27):
life last checked. Wow. Okay, well that's not infuriating at all. Um,
something else that I'm sure won't be infuriating at all.
Who do you think this impacts the most? So? The
center I visited was in Jonesboro, UM, which is half
an hour outside of Atlanta. It's a very it's a

(26:51):
pretty low income community. I think a third of the
households are on food stamps. UM. So this is impacting
people who don't have other options available in their area. UM,
low income women, Black women, who, as we mentioned, are
suffering from well already insanely high maternal mortality rates. So

(27:12):
it's it's it's impacting the most vulnerable. Can you speak
to the history of these at all? Yeah. I was
surprised to learn that Chrysis pregnancy centers are even older
than Roe versus Wade. UM. But they've been around for
a long time. So. Robert Pearson's considered the founding father
of crisis pregnancy centers. The first one was opened in

(27:34):
nineteen sixty seven in Hawaii. Yeah, and um after that,
two years later he founded the Pearson Foundation, which is
based in St. Louis, and the goal was to assist
local groups with setting up cbcs, and they provide things
like pamphlets, discounted video equipment, and slide shows like the

(27:55):
twenty seven minute long Caring includes many pick there's a
bloody fetuses and waist cans, and one of a gurning
carrying a woman who was apparently dead and is covered
by a sheet. It ends by comparing abortion to the
Final Solution, and that's from Crisis Pregnancy Center. Watch. There's
a lot of that kind of language, um, and a

(28:17):
lot of a lot of people talking about even framing
it as sort of a racial justice issue what they're doing,
because if they're trying to lower rates of abortion among
black women, it's as if, you know, because they're they're
trying to fight this this genocide of I don't know
exactly what the reasoning is, but it's definitely framed as

(28:39):
almost like a human rights issue what they're doing. Yeah,
I mean they already we were talking about this during
the abortion I don't know if we actually said it,
but they're calling it infanticide abortion that it's kind of
like that's completely misleading in every way, um, in what
we're talking about and what we're talking about with rights
in general. Yeah, And as I've mentioned many many times
on the show, I come from a really small town

(29:01):
in Georgia, UM and I in eighth grade, I was
on the debate team, and I was like, me and
one other kid were liberal and everyone else's conservative, so
it's always us on the other side. And when abortioned,
that was the debate the issue. I just remember on
the other side, they showed slideshows of all these babies

(29:23):
in like dumpsters and trash cans, and then me and
my partner had to go up and we were like, well,
that's terrible, but he's saying this is good. But also
this Issari really was out right, and again like it's
all about the misleading like uh, feedomongering that continues to
happen every day in any type of political agenda, Like

(29:48):
the best way to get to people who don't truly
know it's the cost fear. Well, yeah, and like you
said that, a lot of times it is someone whose
weaving and isn't sure. And if you come in and
watch a video like that, I'm sure is very effective.
And even if just to have to say afterwards like
me and eighth grade, it didn't change how it felt,
but I felt worse at voice what I thought after it. Again,

(30:13):
when people make the term murdering babies your murder, how
do you argue with that? I mean, we really can't. Yeah,
I love, I love killing baby. Let's do this. That's
gonna be somebody's gonna pull that, I know, but you
know that that's the whole mentality. And I know with
a lot of the pregnancy resource centers, actually the ones
that I've seen because with me working in the state level, UM,

(30:37):
they do wear scrubs, and I think one or two
of them are not necessarily nursers but their assistants, so
they're in the field, but not quite the same guidelines
of education wise. I saw a lot of UM nursing
students and scenographers who are getting their practical experience doing
an internship at a crisis pregnancy center. It's recognized. Yeah,

(31:00):
that's kind of how they get away with being medical.
I guess um in their conversations, and again, this is
one of those things that causes a lot of guilt
and young frightened people who are pregnant, who are in
a place where they're not sure what to do, so
they use tactics such as guilt and fear and um
empathy in every way to try to persuade someone. One

(31:22):
thing that's that struck me about some of the folks
I met whose staff these centers is they really are warm, open,
genuine people who seem to care. These are really like
motherly figures that you see the people are reaching out
for because I've seen that as well. They come and
touch you and hug on you a little bit and
tell you everything's gonna be okay, and oftentimes we'll be like,

(31:44):
let me pray with you, even though that might not
be a thing at the center, but they want to
make it so personal for you as if they understand
you and your well being, and to be fair, maybe
they do because they're that passionate, but of course it
comes very one sided, um without an understanding of what
this could be the fallout in the future. Yeah, I

(32:04):
think I read another account from someone who went to
a crisis pregnancy center. I think she might have been
an undercover person. But in either case, the person she
the nurse if it was at nurse, but whoever she
met at the crisis pregnancy center followed up with her
for two months, like called her on the phone was,
you know, just checking out, how are you? How are things?
I got to know her, so, yeah, they're They're very personable.

(32:28):
It seems generally um. But to go back to the
history for a second, um and Pierson, he wrote a
widely accepted and used pamphlet outlining tactics to use to
deceive women like He was pretty open about it, and
then in nine he said, obviously we're fighting Satan. A
killer who in this case is the girl who wants
to kill her baby, has no right to information that

(32:50):
will help her kill her baby. Therefore, when she calls
and says do you do abortions, we do not tell
her no, we don't do abortions. So I can imagine
if you truly believe that in it, it feels like
you're fighting Satan. It's pretty powerful messaging. I think these

(33:11):
people are definitely convinced that they're doing the right thing. Oh. Absolutely, Again,
when we were talking about feminism in itself, one of
the big reasons people hate that word again, one of
the big reasons that I had fights with my family
is because feminism equals abortion. End the story, an abortion
means murder and you care nothing about the baby. That's
that's the whole picture for them. There's nothing else to that,

(33:34):
even though obviously it's a very broad subject. And that's
exactly what this fearmongering has become. Is they're trying to
take away life. Yeah, and they've been very effective at it. UM.
We have a little bit more to discuss, but first
we're going to pause for one more quick break for
word from our sponsors, and we're back. Thank you, Sposish.

(34:07):
And one of the ways that they've gotten more effective,
and you kind of touch on this, is that there's
this old school and new school. UM. They've modernized, they've
come into the twentieth century. You wrote about a conference
that was recently held in Atlanta that was to make
sure that CPCs are operating the most effectively and these
are modern times. Can you talk a little bit about that. Yeah,

(34:28):
there were so many interesting workshops that there were about
people who came together staffers from crisis pregnancy centers around
the country, UM to sort of learn new best practices
for their industry and how to stay competitive in this
shifting landscape where you know, there's billboards. That's another era now.

(34:49):
People who are what they call abortion minded or often
what's the first thing you do you Google you know,
abortion clinic in my area, So how do you reach
those people? It's you know, there was a workshop on
Google AdWords and how to utilize that to get people
to your website, how to write a compelling landing page

(35:09):
for your website, how do use Facebook? Um, you know,
they're definitely trying to stay on the cutting edge of
how people are searching for information around abortion and make
sure they're meeting their target person there right, Yeah, I
remember that. Um, when that came out that if you
type in abortion, probably one of the top three results
is going to be at Crisis Pregnancy Center because they

(35:31):
did buy those like keywords. Um, so there, they've gotten
pretty good at that as well. UM, as we as
we wrap up here, what do you think, why is
this worth talking about? And what can and should be done?
If anything? You know, it's interesting. Um, I'm from California,

(35:52):
and so I think my understanding of the world and
how things should be is is very colored by the
you know, being from the coast and you know, relatively
affluent state where you know you can well, if you
need an abortion, you just go get one or you know,
And it wasn't until I moved to the South that
I realized how different things look in different parts of
the country. Um. You know the fact that there are

(36:14):
only nine abortion providers in Georgia and nine d crisis
pregnancy centers. That's not choice, that's not options. Um. And
so I don't know the curtailing of access to fair, unbiased,
truthful information about what options are available to you if
you find yourself pregnant and you're not sure that that's

(36:36):
the that's the direction you want to go. Uh, that's paramount.
And those rights, especially in places like Georgia, are being eroded.
It's it's less and less easy to find information that
women need, truly need. Um. So yeah, I mean I
think with this coordinated effort that we're seeing in states

(36:58):
across the South and the West passing near total abortion bands,
it might go up to the Supreme Court. Who you know,
ro versus weight is legitimately in danger um. Yeah, this
is a very real issue that's going to impact millions
of women. Yeah. And um, like we said in our episode,

(37:19):
on our recent episode on abortion, it's dangerous. Um. There
there have been many cases of women's lives being endangered
or and or um the fetus or child because they
didn't get accurate information. Are they thought they were going
to a hospital hospital, but they were going to a
Catholic hospital. UM. So it just seems transparent, transparency and

(37:44):
knowing the facts when it comes to this, like you
have said, very dangerous thing in our country, that is
having a baby. What would you say to look for
those who are actually googling and we know there's these tricks,
and I know we kind of body touched on a
little bit of the things that might be missing. What
would you say for those who are researching now um
and looking things up while they do have access some

(38:05):
of the key things that should look out for to
show what is legitimately a choice site or choice center
as opposed to one of these um Christian basin ers
as not outright Christian. What would you say? There are
two links that maybe we could put in the show
notes or something UM that are super helpful. One of
them is that map that Andrea Schwarzenderuber put together of

(38:27):
all the crisis pregnancy centers across the United States. If
there's if you've identified a clinic and you're not sure,
cross reference it with that map and you'll be able
to at least see what you might be able to
expect when you go to one of these places. UM.
There's also there's a National Abortion Providers Center that lists
UM affiliated abortion providers in each state, and so if

(38:47):
you want to make sure that you're going to a
place that is not UM, you know, opposed to providing
information and services around abortion, you can UM look it
up there. Thank you so much for joining us. Are
there any projects that you're working on that you want
to shout out while you're here, Things that you have
done where people can find you, anything like that. UM,

(39:07):
people can find me on my website maa craft dot
com if they want to. I don't know. I write
on a wide range of subjects, so it's not all.
It's not all reproductive health may not shout out anything
but awesome stuff. Nonetheless, we talked about all kinds of
things on this show, so go check that out if
you would like listeners, UM, thanks again, and if you

(39:30):
would like to email as you can. Our email is
stuff Media mom stuff at i heeart media dot com.
It's new email, but all new emails sent to the
old email arrived to the new career. We are professionals. UM.
You can also find us on Instagram at Stuff I
Never Told You and on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast.
Thanks to our super producer Andrew Howard, Play to Be,

(39:50):
Thanks again to Mycroft, You're amazing, and thanks to you
for listening. Thank you, Stuff I've Never Told You. The
production of I Heart Radios cost Stuff Works. For more
podcast from my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app,
Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

(40:20):
M