July 7, 2021 • 29 mins
Cyberstalking is a frightening (and often misunderstood and dismissed) experience. Anney and Samantha dig into the facts and numbers around cyberstalking and sextortion, and discuss some ways we can we protect ourselves online.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to stuff
I've ever told your protection of I Heart Radio. I
have a very simple question for you today, Satanta. Do
you put tape over your webcam? Uh? So I used
(00:28):
to put post it notes over my webcam. The new
computer I've got you actually have a little button and
you could just slide over. Yeah, okay, yeah, so I
do that is that kind of I mean, that's nice
but also very telling of our times and what we're
talking about today. I have tape over mine. I didn't
(00:49):
have it for a while because I got a new laptop,
but then I was researching this episode and in the
middle of it, I went and found tape's earning for sure.
Oh yeah, yeah? And was that being said? Today we
are talking about cyber stalking and sex stortions, so trigger
warning for um some abusive behaviors, some controlling behavior and
(01:11):
stalking and yes, sexual abuse and domestic violence. Tat that
in there. Uh. And this has been on my mind because,
as I've spoken about on the show, I recently lost
my phone and I did Samantha knows, I did all
kinds of things to try to find it. I was like,
text this thing to my phone, and I was doing
(01:31):
the you know, Google Find my phone, and I was
looking online because you know, everything was like it's easy
to find your lost phone, but and it would say
you have to installed installed this before you lost it.
But while I was desperately searching for a way to
find my phone, I ran across so many of these
(01:51):
top Google search suggestions of things like how to spy
on your wife, how to find out if your wife
is cheating, so many apps to install secretly on someone's phone.
And this is like within the first two pages of Google.
When I'm like, I want to find my lost phone,
this is what was coming up. And I have I've
(02:12):
talked about it before, I know on an episode we
did with Bridget about how this is a new genre
of horror that really freaks me out, this whole kind
of cyberstalking, spying thing. There's that whole really disturbing Black
Mirror episode about it. For some reason, I'm reading a
creepy fan fiction about it that really disturbs me. I
wasn't and I didn't know that sory it was gonna go,
(02:33):
but it did, and now I can't stop reading. So
I don't know't do about that, and then I, I
don't know if you do this, matho, but I talked
to like the man that watches me as in like
in theory this like government poor government, SAP. That is like, wow,
she's reading more fan fiction. Did not do that. You
(02:53):
don't talk to your the poor spy that society. But
I have a dog to talk to, So okay, replaces that.
I got it. And then I was thinking about this
today because our company has some pretty big brother type policies.
So hello, big brother company. Yeah. I used to have
a friend who worked at a company in our building,
(03:16):
and they had to put in a flash drive every
time when they arrived to work so that the flash
drive would record everything they every website, they did, every
everything they did on the computer, and then they would
take out the flash drive and turn it back in
so they could look at what was on there. And
it's just one of those things for that could be
abused so easily. Yeah, especially the work they do. Could
(03:38):
you imagine, Oh oh lord, we just talked about the
fact like we had that virginity episode, We've had episode,
we've had women who killed episodes. All of those are
really concerting. If you just saw are you looking up nothing.
I'm fine Q And on all of those things right right,
(04:03):
we would we would raise some suspicions for sure. Well,
I would also as a social worker go into like
kids sites and look to make sure I can find
people see if I can stop them, like I have
to try to hunt them down, um and make sure
they're okay. I had to go into kids sites when
they would post like sexual explicit stuff like you have
to take this down. This is you know, child porn
(04:25):
stuff like that, so I, oh god, yeah, and talk
about stalking. I try not to think about it too much.
And I know it's like a running joke. And I
even texted my friend and was like, if I die,
you know, destroying my computer, destroying my search history and
work stuff aside, I think people would be they would
give me some wiggle room for that. But even like
(04:46):
the stuff I do, isn't that people wouldn't be surprised
if the fan fiction, like I don't know, but I
still wanted. I was like, it's kind of like I
have a setup, and like if I disappear, you go
to these places, take these things and get rid of
those things. Nothing is there anything bad. But I'm more embarrassed,
right exactly. It's the embarrassment you're not there to defend yourselves.
(05:08):
That's right. That's how I feel too, and it makes
you sound so much shadier. We're not hiding anything else, No, no,
definitely not. So. We have done past episodes on stocking.
Check those out if you want to learn more. We
did also discuss a lot of what we're gonna be
talking about in our grimming episode and the recent episode
we did with bridget about online harassment. All of that's
(05:29):
kind of about play in this conversation. And then I
did want to put this in here. Earlier in over
thirty women sued the website porn Hub and their parent
company mind Geek for operating as a quote, classic criminal
enterprise and hosting and profiting from content that, according to them,
is non consensual that may involve child pornography, sex trafficking,
(05:50):
and rape and sexual assault. The lawsuit claims that the
site and the company behind it allowed for the posting, incentivization,
and monetization of this content. In the words of one
of the attorneys representing the plaintiffs, the case is not
about consensual porn or negligence. It's about a porn company's
intentional election to include in their business model rape and
(06:10):
other non consensual content. The lawsuit alleges that the company
purchased bolt content from sex traffickers and hit it under
Sheld Corporations. Some girls report being pressured by boyfriends to
send videos of them undressing, which then got posted. So
that is also a part of what we're going to
be talking about. And this is a complicated situation that
(06:31):
often gets oversimplified. Of course, any of this content they're
talking about should get taken down, and porn Hub should
be held accountable for the content they host. But at
the same time, you do get conservative groups to crying
porn in general. That muddies the whole thing. And we've
talked about that before. We've you see that with like
human on and all that stuff. But yeah, this is
(06:53):
not exactly what we're talking about today, but we are
talking about things that allow for stuff like this to happen, right,
So let's get into the basics. What is cyber stalking.
According to Marshall, cyberstalking refers to the use of the internet, email,
or other telecommunication technologies to harass or stalk another person.
It's not the mere annoyance of an unsolicited email. We
(07:16):
get all of those. We know that it is methodical, deliberate,
and persistent. The communication, whether from someone known or unknown,
do not stop even after the recipient has asked the
sender to cease all contacts and are often filled with
inappropriate and sometimes really disturbing content. Cyber Stalking is an
extension of the physical form of stalking. Yes, and it's
(07:37):
related to sex storation, which is a term that first
started popping up in Though it may have first appeared
in nineteen fifty, the d J addressed it in two
thousand and eleven, and the FBI cautioned about it in So.
This is when someone threatens to release sensitive information, images
or videos unless the target sends new pictures, performs a
(07:58):
sexual favor, pay some some money, becomes a quote cam slave,
things like that. Maybe a mixture of all those things. Um.
Both of these uh. Cyberstalking and sextortion do more directly
impact girls and women. Experts estimate that the number of
people affected by cyberstalking is in the tens of thousands,
(08:18):
but could be in the hundreds of thousands. In there
were sixteen thousand, nine and seventy four complaints of cyberstalking
filed with the FBI, only sixteen were prosecuted. The FBI
has reported a recent uptick in cases that fall under
federal cyberstalking laws, although that's kind of complicated. There's no
(08:39):
real federal cyberstalking law. We'll get into that. There are
things that it falls under. The head of the Homeland
Security Investigations here in Atlanta said when asked about this,
predators used to stop playgrounds. This is the new playground, right.
I think one of the biggest problems that we've talked
about this before is that the laws cannot keep up
with technology, right, something that probably can do that. So
(09:01):
while we often think of women being the victims of
sex stortion, men and boys are not immune. They may
be enticed into performing sex acts in front of webcams
with an attractive woman who may herself be coerced, unaware
they're being recorded, and they are all then threatened with
this release of the footage and often very often shane
(09:21):
for it and guilted into it, and this has in
some cases lead to suicide. We know some teen deaths
because of this. In some cases, male perpetrators have impersonated
significant others to trick women and to sending them sexual videos. Yes,
and many perpetrators target women and girls who are expiring
actors and models under the guise of offering them a role.
(09:44):
Others would pose as celebrities, such as Justin Bieber, to
demand nude pictures from young girls. Sometimes, um they edit
the material to look as though they posted compromising images
or videos to porn site, so they'll make it look
like they did. Maybe they actually didn't, but they'll send
you something that makes you think that they did. And
many people who perpetrate these acts report that it is
(10:05):
all about power of feeling like you are controlling someone
and it's really heartbreaking to read, like the text exchanges
of you know, a young girl being like you're ruining
my life, please stop, and they're like no, why, really
really heartbreaking And yeah, as an actor, I've seen this,
and our agent will send out messages and be like,
(10:26):
if you get the message from this guy, he has
nothing to do with anything in movie or film. He's
just asking for pictures of people and that's just a
part of our business. That's like a message that goes
out to two people in an occupation. It's just odd.
Cyber bullying is a part of this conversation too, and
some argue that cyber stalking is a form of cyber bullying.
(10:52):
So a lot of times when you look up cyberstalking,
you'll you'll end up in cyber bullying websites that have
kind of a little section about cyberstalking. I do think
it is well, it's not like new, it's newer in
terms of people really trying to combat it or think
about how we can protect ourselves from it, and how
big of an issue that it is. Right, So we
(11:14):
do have some more numbers and specifics for you, but
first we had a quick break for word from our
sponsor and we're back, Thank you sponsored. So, just like stalking,
(11:37):
cyberstalking is usually perpetrated by someone the victim knows co workers, exs,
significant others, and friends. However, like I was saying before,
this is still kind of new, especially in terms of
data collection, and so some places say that kind of
the opposite thing, Um, where it's somebody who has this
like freedom of the internet, can do it from wherever.
(12:00):
It makes sense to me that it would be someone
you know, but also makes sense that it would be
somebody who's just looking for someone to target. Women aged
between eighteen to thirty are the most common targets. Once that,
he found that sextortion in particular victimizes children under eighteen
at all rate of seventy one compared to stalking. Some
(12:22):
experts argue that because of things like the lack of obstacles,
instant gratification, lack of need to be in the same
geographic location, and difficulty to prosecute, cyberstalking is more common
and more attractive for perpetrators. Sex tortionists are almost all male,
many are repeat offenders. Most do not adhere to the
(12:44):
conditions of their sextortion. So if they say send me
this and then I'll give you whatever back, most of
them don't. As I learned when looking online about how
to find a lost phone, there are so many apps
out there that can be used it's buy on people,
and their functionalities are terrifying, like vocation tracking, remote use
of camera. There's also a bunch of apps that quote
(13:04):
guarantee to put a stop to cyberstalking for a price,
which I can't speak to whether or not they work
or not, But I find that really infuriating that you
could be in a terrifying situation and it's you're desperate
and you go and are like, Okay, a hundred dollars
will just fix this, and then might not fix it right.
And that's kind of the same thing with identity fraud,
(13:25):
when we have these major corporations who have decided to
take advantage of it, like pay us a monthly fee
and we'll write maybe if not, we'll help you get
it back. Maybe we'll try. But I think that's also
a thing. And I know also out there within the
dark web there are white knights, I believe, who try
to come in and infiltrate systems to let people be aware.
(13:47):
So we had that situation of the dude who had
a camera, a ring camera, and they actually started talking
to each other. He was like, hey, your numbers listed
on the web. They can get you real quick. And
they had this things like what's like change the path
started right now. So there's definitely that too, being a
little more rare, still just as creepy maybe, but I
(14:07):
guess yeah, yeah, Okay, So speaking of creepy, imagine you
have a friend, our partner that knows your pen to
your phone, you leave the room for something, they could
easily change settings in your phone and saw a hidden
spywear app things like that. Sometimes these apps are called
(14:28):
spousewear or stalker, where these apps are usually specifically marketed
as a way to track your spouse and catch some
cheating like they're not even hiding. Others called dual use
apps are not intended to be used for cyper stalking,
but can be things like the I Lost my Phone app,
or apps used to keep track of where your kids
(14:50):
are or something like find my Friends can be modified
to track someone without their knowledge. Google and Apple claim
to have consulted to me stick violence groups to address
these concerns, but most of their advice still requires that
you are the verily suspicious and aware of the ins
and outs of technology, So you would still have to
have some level of I don't trust my friend or
(15:14):
spouse or whatever right, which a lot of people don't
necessarily have. Because when I was looking this up, and
I consider myself pretty technologically savvy, I was like, wait,
this is terrifying, right. So, one NPR survey of eighty
two domestic violence shelters found that eight of them had
to help people with whose partners used GPS to track
(15:37):
their movements. And by the way, we've also seen cases
murder cases to quick kidnapping cases, any hype of cases
where detectives and law enforcement actually use this as well.
They tracked I remember that was one case. They tracked
a watch, a fitness watch for a righte case, and
there was a whole back and forth about is this
changing people's rights? Is constitutionally okay? Yeah, but just you
(16:00):
and I have one of these. I have a fitness watch,
but it definitely locates your GPS and it also shows
what you're doing sort of kind of tailed by the monitoring,
really creepy, but I use it and then dealt with
partners who spied on them with apps. And many of
these shelters have a digital detox center. And if you've
ever seen a spy movie, you know you gotta get
(16:22):
your phone. You'll get your GPS. Yeah. So a lot
of these domestic violence shelters provide like a what we
would call like a brick phone. Essentially, all it does
is call and that is it. So this this MPR
study also profiled an app called m spy for about
seventy dollars a month. This app instructure you how to
(16:42):
install it and then hide any trace of it, even
with a verified symbol next to it, making it look legit.
It monitors text messages, callogus, call recordings, pictures, videos, every
website visited, every key tight. This allows people to figure
out people's you, their names, and passwords. It could be
used to block phone numbers, further isolating the victim, and
(17:06):
location tracking all on top of that. But one of
the scariest things is the eaves drop function. When someone calls,
whether you answer or not, the speaker phone is activated
and recording starts. So someone who gets like probably twenties
spam calls a day, that would be a lot, a
lot of eavesdropping that could happen to me. Right, So,
(17:27):
most but not all, states have laws against cyber stalking,
and it's recent and those that don't usually they'll prosecute
cyber stalking under harassment or stalking laws. There isn't a
federal law against cyber stalking, but there is one that
covers it. So so many loopholes. However, many officials aren't
fully up to date on the ways people can be
(17:49):
harassed and victimized using technology. We know this, many of
them don't even understand the technology. Many of them don't
believe this technology right, which makes this whole thing super difficult. Uh,
many law enforcement officers don't have the resources, even though
they get millions of dollars, they have lots of weapons.
Just all that. Some outlets have pointed out, the prosecution
(18:10):
is frequently quite lenient and they are even no matter what,
and we've seen them in way too many cases when
it comes to bullying. They don't even have that on
record for face to face bullying, So having it on
an internet text doesn't worry, especially when you start talking
about the First Amendment, which is completely misinterpreted for this specifically. Yeah,
(18:34):
and and there are so many case studies are examples
that were given in researching this, and I know we've
talked about them before, but where women would you know,
be like, I'm being cyber's doctor, this is what's happening
to me, And they would have to explain the technology,
like they would have to do this whole extra step,
and then kind of having yet this amus like are
you sure this is athic response? Can't you just delete it? Yeah?
(18:59):
And this isn't in fluid the victim blaming that is
associated with all of this, So immediately, if you have
a sexy picture, you can credibility goes out the window. Yeah. Yeah,
So the technology available and the level of data collection
that happens on the Internet just at large has played
into these high numbers of cyberstalking that are yes, continuously
(19:20):
going up. So on top of all the things we've
talked about with phone, there's also cyberstalking online and that
that can involve similar thingies like tracking online and selling
tracking apps on someone's laptop, and also yeah, access to cameras,
sending unsolicited or threatening messages, overwhelming a target of cyberstalkings,
chat channels with messages, starting online rumors, or sharing videos
(19:42):
or pictures edited or not without consent, like revenge porn, blackmailing,
setting up websites that host stories that may be true
are not about the person breaking into online accounts to
pose as a person and ruin their reputation, spy where
um oh, and even like hidden cameras in people's homes
with some audio capabilities. Things like that. All of this
(20:05):
usually takes place over time, and it is a very
very scary experience that is yes, often dismissed. Cyberstalking can
result in negative outcomes like trouble sleeping, hyper vigilance, nightmares,
high levels of stress, trouble eating, feelings of loss of
control and safety, feelings of helplessness, fear and isolation, things
(20:25):
like that. Yeah, there's so many things. So online dating
has also played into this, which sucks because a part
of dating could be sending sexy backs, messages, are videos.
I've never done that. Part of this is because I
worked in social worka I knew what was happening. But
and since at least of the US is fifty four
million single people have tried online dating, there's a lot
(20:49):
for would be cyber stokers to mind from. And thanks
to the fact we're constantly tied to our phone just
I am, computers and other technology, there are so many
avenues for us to be victim mind and again turn
things but depend on into sources of fear and harassment.
And yeah, when it's on, when they have one picture,
it doesn't even matter, it can be there for it's
(21:10):
there forever. Like I remember having to show a kid
who had been sending pics of herself to a boy,
which I was like, this is a huge sake, is
gonna come back by you if you're not careful. And
also the fact that you're sending a picture of yourself.
It can actually be considered child porn other story, but
having to show her that I could go back and
pull it up for her and she was kind of like, oh,
(21:32):
so definitely it doesn't disappear. Yeah, um, And and it
is really really unfortunate because if we're not looking to
fear monger or anything, just something you should be aware of.
And it sucks. It does because you shouldn't have to
worry about that. If you're dating online and you do
want to send the singing picture, it is extremely unfortunate
(21:55):
that that is something we have to worry about. And yeah,
a lot of people, especially people who were like got
the flooded of channels or whatever, they would just talk
about how like every notification they'd get on their phone
would just send this fear fear through them. And it
is something we depend on. It is something that a
lot of us used for all kinds of like fun things,
(22:18):
so to have it turned into that. So some experts
breakdown cyberstalking into types. One of the most common is
email cyberstalking. This can involve trying to fix a relationship,
start a relationship, threatening or traumatizing through unsolicited messages sending
viruses or flooding someone's inbox. Um. Then there's internet cyberstalking
(22:40):
with the goal of slandering are threatening the victim. This
can involve breaking into accounts, spoofing, sending pornographic images, and
using spyware. Doxing can fall under this to posting private information,
posing as the victim and asking strangers for sexual activity,
or building entire websites yes, with the intent of inviting
(23:01):
strangers to degrade and her ask the victim. Victims have
reported strangers showing up at their door a place of
expecting sex. In one case, over one thousand people showed
up at his home. But then there are computer cyber stalkers,
stalkers who control the victims computer, which is also terrifying.
(23:24):
Also terrifying. UM, So we do have some some advice,
but first we're gonna pause for one more gup for
a word fromer sponsor and we're back. Thank you sponsor. So,
(23:48):
if you suspect or have confirmed you are the target
of cyberstalking, organizations have some steps and advice to take,
which is further complicated because a lot of it's online.
So again, if you have already looked this up, it
can be something frightening or perhaps not even possible on
your home devices. Here's what Marshall recommends. Trust your instincts
(24:09):
and exercise caution if you have an abuser who is
good with technology, So if you notice things like difficulty
turning off phone, or if it takes longer than normal
and unexplained increase in your data bill and increase in
battery changage, it could be a spyware app. Experts also
suggest checking to see if your phone is rooted or
jail broken. Backing up your phone is also a good idea.
(24:32):
All of this is with the caveat that a salcer
abuser may be able to see what you're doing, so
you have to take that into account and make sure
you're doing what is best for you and your particular situation.
On the security questions, don't answer with something guessable, answer
with something weird. I've been doing this for years. Works
for me as far as I know right, have a
(24:54):
safety plan in place. Organizations like RAIN or the National
Sexual Assault Hotline can help with this, and some have
quick clothes features for laptops. I know. There's been a
lot of features that allow for that, and also features
that could ask for help, but it looks like you're
talking to a friend. You can also seek out a
safer computer at a public place if you think yours
might be compromised. Um, and this is an option for you. Yeah,
(25:18):
create new email accounts. Look at the settings in your phone,
stuff like security, GPS, changing passwords and pin numbers. When
I lost my phone that it was like, over several days,
I kept thinking of other things I had to change
my password on, Like oh yeah, that one too. Oh yeah,
so yeah. Use a corded phone for a more private conversation. Again,
(25:40):
if this is something you have access to, um baby,
monitors can be listening in on as well. UM get
a new or donated phone. Some crisis centers, like we said,
provide these if possible. Learn more about policies of agencies
and companies when it comes to publishing online data. We
talked about options like delete me in a recent episode
with Bridget that can help you find and delete public information.
(26:02):
Get a private mailbox for communications you want to keep private,
and covering your webcam with h as any does removable tape.
If yours doesn't have the picture that allows you to
just shut it off, just slide it on over. Yeah. Um,
they also recommended things like using a gender neutral password,
never giving out your password. So I know a lot
of us are guilty of never giving out personal information
(26:25):
to a site or online entity you don't trust. And
if you have children, instruct them on these security measures
to um, don't respond to an email from an unknown person,
regularly search your name to see what it comes up.
That takes a lot of courage, I know. But on
top of that, most organizations suggest keeping an incident log
of any communications with the cyber stalker. And yes, having
(26:48):
these conversations with children so they know how to stay
safe online, and something else that could help that. We
talked about a lot more data right now. The situation
is seriously understudied and misunderstood. Like as I was saying,
as we were going through this, I saw conflicting things
all over the first Yeah, I mean when it comes
(27:10):
to an anemone and the internet, it gives a lot
of free access and stuff like swatting does a whole
different level when you come to like Twitch and all
those things. And yeah, that's the other part is there's
more and more technology, things like Amazon on their legs,
I doing the sidewalk feature but that immediate was like nope,
because it shows for some reason wants you to share
(27:30):
with the strangers, and I feel like, hey, Amazon, that's dumb. Dumb.
Also things like Google, who have been accused repeatedly of
data mining, as well as having companies that are all
the time hacked, all of the credit card companies, all
of the credit overseeing companies, like they get all that
information and identities being sold because they have features like that.
(27:54):
We're not even talking about that as part of the
sobberstalking because yeah, that's easily accessible. We've known for a
long time if you go to white Pages and you
want to pay some money, you can get complete access
to home phone number address. You just have to pay
ten dollars a subscription, which is really really absurd and
quite quite alarming as in fact, so that doesn't even
(28:17):
include any of that. We're talking more about the personal level.
But when it comes to and we've talked about this
with bridget corporate responsibility and no one really really actually
dealing with that, that's a whole different conversation. It is.
It's it's another one of those things where so much
of the advice for giving in this is basically putting
(28:38):
the impetus on you and the responsibility on you to
be vigilant when you shouldn't have to be so concerned
that a company that you use got hacked right now, right,
and yeah, we shouldn't have to pay extra money for
buying a service that should have been already included in
the service that we're paying for, right just little self,
(29:01):
do this a little poppy well, listeners, As always, we
would love to hear from you. You can email us
at Steffie your mom Stuff, I hurt me dot com.
You can find us on Instagram at steff I Never
Told You, are on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks
as always to our super producer Christina, Thank you, and
(29:21):
thanks to you for listening Stuff I Never Told You
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Hear Radio via Hear Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever
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Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to stuff
I've ever told your protection of I Heart Radio. I
have a very simple question for you today, Satanta. Do
you put tape over your webcam? Uh? So I used
(00:28):
to put post it notes over my webcam. The new
computer I've got you actually have a little button and
you could just slide over. Yeah, okay, yeah, so I
do that is that kind of I mean, that's nice
but also very telling of our times and what we're
talking about today. I have tape over mine. I didn't
(00:49):
have it for a while because I got a new laptop,
but then I was researching this episode and in the
middle of it, I went and found tape's earning for sure.
Oh yeah, yeah? And was that being said? Today we
are talking about cyber stalking and sex stortions, so trigger
warning for um some abusive behaviors, some controlling behavior and
(01:11):
stalking and yes, sexual abuse and domestic violence. Tat that
in there. Uh. And this has been on my mind because,
as I've spoken about on the show, I recently lost
my phone and I did Samantha knows, I did all
kinds of things to try to find it. I was like,
text this thing to my phone, and I was doing
(01:31):
the you know, Google Find my phone, and I was
looking online because you know, everything was like it's easy
to find your lost phone, but and it would say
you have to installed installed this before you lost it.
But while I was desperately searching for a way to
find my phone, I ran across so many of these
(01:51):
top Google search suggestions of things like how to spy
on your wife, how to find out if your wife
is cheating, so many apps to install secretly on someone's phone.
And this is like within the first two pages of Google.
When I'm like, I want to find my lost phone,
this is what was coming up. And I have I've
(02:12):
talked about it before, I know on an episode we
did with Bridget about how this is a new genre
of horror that really freaks me out, this whole kind
of cyberstalking, spying thing. There's that whole really disturbing Black
Mirror episode about it. For some reason, I'm reading a
creepy fan fiction about it that really disturbs me. I
wasn't and I didn't know that sory it was gonna go,
(02:33):
but it did, and now I can't stop reading. So
I don't know't do about that, and then I, I
don't know if you do this, matho, but I talked
to like the man that watches me as in like
in theory this like government poor government, SAP. That is like, wow,
she's reading more fan fiction. Did not do that. You
(02:53):
don't talk to your the poor spy that society. But
I have a dog to talk to, So okay, replaces that.
I got it. And then I was thinking about this
today because our company has some pretty big brother type policies.
So hello, big brother company. Yeah. I used to have
a friend who worked at a company in our building,
(03:16):
and they had to put in a flash drive every
time when they arrived to work so that the flash
drive would record everything they every website, they did, every
everything they did on the computer, and then they would
take out the flash drive and turn it back in
so they could look at what was on there. And
it's just one of those things for that could be
abused so easily. Yeah, especially the work they do. Could
(03:38):
you imagine, Oh oh lord, we just talked about the
fact like we had that virginity episode, We've had episode,
we've had women who killed episodes. All of those are
really concerting. If you just saw are you looking up nothing.
I'm fine Q And on all of those things right right,
(04:03):
we would we would raise some suspicions for sure. Well,
I would also as a social worker go into like
kids sites and look to make sure I can find
people see if I can stop them, like I have
to try to hunt them down, um and make sure
they're okay. I had to go into kids sites when
they would post like sexual explicit stuff like you have
to take this down. This is you know, child porn
(04:25):
stuff like that, so I, oh god, yeah, and talk
about stalking. I try not to think about it too much.
And I know it's like a running joke. And I
even texted my friend and was like, if I die,
you know, destroying my computer, destroying my search history and
work stuff aside, I think people would be they would
give me some wiggle room for that. But even like
(04:46):
the stuff I do, isn't that people wouldn't be surprised
if the fan fiction, like I don't know, but I
still wanted. I was like, it's kind of like I
have a setup, and like if I disappear, you go
to these places, take these things and get rid of
those things. Nothing is there anything bad. But I'm more embarrassed,
right exactly. It's the embarrassment you're not there to defend yourselves.
(05:08):
That's right. That's how I feel too, and it makes
you sound so much shadier. We're not hiding anything else, No, no,
definitely not. So. We have done past episodes on stocking.
Check those out if you want to learn more. We
did also discuss a lot of what we're gonna be
talking about in our grimming episode and the recent episode
we did with bridget about online harassment. All of that's
(05:29):
kind of about play in this conversation. And then I
did want to put this in here. Earlier in over
thirty women sued the website porn Hub and their parent
company mind Geek for operating as a quote, classic criminal
enterprise and hosting and profiting from content that, according to them,
is non consensual that may involve child pornography, sex trafficking,
(05:50):
and rape and sexual assault. The lawsuit claims that the
site and the company behind it allowed for the posting, incentivization,
and monetization of this content. In the words of one
of the attorneys representing the plaintiffs, the case is not
about consensual porn or negligence. It's about a porn company's
intentional election to include in their business model rape and
(06:10):
other non consensual content. The lawsuit alleges that the company
purchased bolt content from sex traffickers and hit it under
Sheld Corporations. Some girls report being pressured by boyfriends to
send videos of them undressing, which then got posted. So
that is also a part of what we're going to
be talking about. And this is a complicated situation that
(06:31):
often gets oversimplified. Of course, any of this content they're
talking about should get taken down, and porn Hub should
be held accountable for the content they host. But at
the same time, you do get conservative groups to crying
porn in general. That muddies the whole thing. And we've
talked about that before. We've you see that with like
human on and all that stuff. But yeah, this is
(06:53):
not exactly what we're talking about today, but we are
talking about things that allow for stuff like this to happen, right,
So let's get into the basics. What is cyber stalking.
According to Marshall, cyberstalking refers to the use of the internet, email,
or other telecommunication technologies to harass or stalk another person.
It's not the mere annoyance of an unsolicited email. We
(07:16):
get all of those. We know that it is methodical, deliberate,
and persistent. The communication, whether from someone known or unknown,
do not stop even after the recipient has asked the
sender to cease all contacts and are often filled with
inappropriate and sometimes really disturbing content. Cyber Stalking is an
extension of the physical form of stalking. Yes, and it's
(07:37):
related to sex storation, which is a term that first
started popping up in Though it may have first appeared
in nineteen fifty, the d J addressed it in two
thousand and eleven, and the FBI cautioned about it in So.
This is when someone threatens to release sensitive information, images
or videos unless the target sends new pictures, performs a
(07:58):
sexual favor, pay some some money, becomes a quote cam slave,
things like that. Maybe a mixture of all those things. Um.
Both of these uh. Cyberstalking and sextortion do more directly
impact girls and women. Experts estimate that the number of
people affected by cyberstalking is in the tens of thousands,
(08:18):
but could be in the hundreds of thousands. In there
were sixteen thousand, nine and seventy four complaints of cyberstalking
filed with the FBI, only sixteen were prosecuted. The FBI
has reported a recent uptick in cases that fall under
federal cyberstalking laws, although that's kind of complicated. There's no
(08:39):
real federal cyberstalking law. We'll get into that. There are
things that it falls under. The head of the Homeland
Security Investigations here in Atlanta said when asked about this,
predators used to stop playgrounds. This is the new playground, right.
I think one of the biggest problems that we've talked
about this before is that the laws cannot keep up
with technology, right, something that probably can do that. So
(09:01):
while we often think of women being the victims of
sex stortion, men and boys are not immune. They may
be enticed into performing sex acts in front of webcams
with an attractive woman who may herself be coerced, unaware
they're being recorded, and they are all then threatened with
this release of the footage and often very often shane
(09:21):
for it and guilted into it, and this has in
some cases lead to suicide. We know some teen deaths
because of this. In some cases, male perpetrators have impersonated
significant others to trick women and to sending them sexual videos. Yes,
and many perpetrators target women and girls who are expiring
actors and models under the guise of offering them a role.
(09:44):
Others would pose as celebrities, such as Justin Bieber, to
demand nude pictures from young girls. Sometimes, um they edit
the material to look as though they posted compromising images
or videos to porn site, so they'll make it look
like they did. Maybe they actually didn't, but they'll send
you something that makes you think that they did. And
many people who perpetrate these acts report that it is
(10:05):
all about power of feeling like you are controlling someone
and it's really heartbreaking to read, like the text exchanges
of you know, a young girl being like you're ruining
my life, please stop, and they're like no, why, really
really heartbreaking And yeah, as an actor, I've seen this,
and our agent will send out messages and be like,
(10:26):
if you get the message from this guy, he has
nothing to do with anything in movie or film. He's
just asking for pictures of people and that's just a
part of our business. That's like a message that goes
out to two people in an occupation. It's just odd.
Cyber bullying is a part of this conversation too, and
some argue that cyber stalking is a form of cyber bullying.
(10:52):
So a lot of times when you look up cyberstalking,
you'll you'll end up in cyber bullying websites that have
kind of a little section about cyberstalking. I do think
it is well, it's not like new, it's newer in
terms of people really trying to combat it or think
about how we can protect ourselves from it, and how
big of an issue that it is. Right, So we
(11:14):
do have some more numbers and specifics for you, but
first we had a quick break for word from our
sponsor and we're back, Thank you sponsored. So, just like stalking,
(11:37):
cyberstalking is usually perpetrated by someone the victim knows co workers, exs,
significant others, and friends. However, like I was saying before,
this is still kind of new, especially in terms of
data collection, and so some places say that kind of
the opposite thing, Um, where it's somebody who has this
like freedom of the internet, can do it from wherever.
(12:00):
It makes sense to me that it would be someone
you know, but also makes sense that it would be
somebody who's just looking for someone to target. Women aged
between eighteen to thirty are the most common targets. Once that,
he found that sextortion in particular victimizes children under eighteen
at all rate of seventy one compared to stalking. Some
(12:22):
experts argue that because of things like the lack of obstacles,
instant gratification, lack of need to be in the same
geographic location, and difficulty to prosecute, cyberstalking is more common
and more attractive for perpetrators. Sex tortionists are almost all male,
many are repeat offenders. Most do not adhere to the
(12:44):
conditions of their sextortion. So if they say send me
this and then I'll give you whatever back, most of
them don't. As I learned when looking online about how
to find a lost phone, there are so many apps
out there that can be used it's buy on people,
and their functionalities are terrifying, like vocation tracking, remote use
of camera. There's also a bunch of apps that quote
(13:04):
guarantee to put a stop to cyberstalking for a price,
which I can't speak to whether or not they work
or not, But I find that really infuriating that you
could be in a terrifying situation and it's you're desperate
and you go and are like, Okay, a hundred dollars
will just fix this, and then might not fix it right.
And that's kind of the same thing with identity fraud,
(13:25):
when we have these major corporations who have decided to
take advantage of it, like pay us a monthly fee
and we'll write maybe if not, we'll help you get
it back. Maybe we'll try. But I think that's also
a thing. And I know also out there within the
dark web there are white knights, I believe, who try
to come in and infiltrate systems to let people be aware.
(13:47):
So we had that situation of the dude who had
a camera, a ring camera, and they actually started talking
to each other. He was like, hey, your numbers listed
on the web. They can get you real quick. And
they had this things like what's like change the path
started right now. So there's definitely that too, being a
little more rare, still just as creepy maybe, but I
(14:07):
guess yeah, yeah, Okay, So speaking of creepy, imagine you
have a friend, our partner that knows your pen to
your phone, you leave the room for something, they could
easily change settings in your phone and saw a hidden
spywear app things like that. Sometimes these apps are called
(14:28):
spousewear or stalker, where these apps are usually specifically marketed
as a way to track your spouse and catch some
cheating like they're not even hiding. Others called dual use
apps are not intended to be used for cyper stalking,
but can be things like the I Lost my Phone app,
or apps used to keep track of where your kids
(14:50):
are or something like find my Friends can be modified
to track someone without their knowledge. Google and Apple claim
to have consulted to me stick violence groups to address
these concerns, but most of their advice still requires that
you are the verily suspicious and aware of the ins
and outs of technology, So you would still have to
have some level of I don't trust my friend or
(15:14):
spouse or whatever right, which a lot of people don't
necessarily have. Because when I was looking this up, and
I consider myself pretty technologically savvy, I was like, wait,
this is terrifying, right. So, one NPR survey of eighty
two domestic violence shelters found that eight of them had
to help people with whose partners used GPS to track
(15:37):
their movements. And by the way, we've also seen cases
murder cases to quick kidnapping cases, any hype of cases
where detectives and law enforcement actually use this as well.
They tracked I remember that was one case. They tracked
a watch, a fitness watch for a righte case, and
there was a whole back and forth about is this
changing people's rights? Is constitutionally okay? Yeah, but just you
(16:00):
and I have one of these. I have a fitness watch,
but it definitely locates your GPS and it also shows
what you're doing sort of kind of tailed by the monitoring,
really creepy, but I use it and then dealt with
partners who spied on them with apps. And many of
these shelters have a digital detox center. And if you've
ever seen a spy movie, you know you gotta get
(16:22):
your phone. You'll get your GPS. Yeah. So a lot
of these domestic violence shelters provide like a what we
would call like a brick phone. Essentially, all it does
is call and that is it. So this this MPR
study also profiled an app called m spy for about
seventy dollars a month. This app instructure you how to
(16:42):
install it and then hide any trace of it, even
with a verified symbol next to it, making it look legit.
It monitors text messages, callogus, call recordings, pictures, videos, every
website visited, every key tight. This allows people to figure
out people's you, their names, and passwords. It could be
used to block phone numbers, further isolating the victim, and
(17:06):
location tracking all on top of that. But one of
the scariest things is the eaves drop function. When someone calls,
whether you answer or not, the speaker phone is activated
and recording starts. So someone who gets like probably twenties
spam calls a day, that would be a lot, a
lot of eavesdropping that could happen to me. Right, So,
(17:27):
most but not all, states have laws against cyber stalking,
and it's recent and those that don't usually they'll prosecute
cyber stalking under harassment or stalking laws. There isn't a
federal law against cyber stalking, but there is one that
covers it. So so many loopholes. However, many officials aren't
fully up to date on the ways people can be
(17:49):
harassed and victimized using technology. We know this, many of
them don't even understand the technology. Many of them don't
believe this technology right, which makes this whole thing super difficult. Uh,
many law enforcement officers don't have the resources, even though
they get millions of dollars, they have lots of weapons.
Just all that. Some outlets have pointed out, the prosecution
(18:10):
is frequently quite lenient and they are even no matter what,
and we've seen them in way too many cases when
it comes to bullying. They don't even have that on
record for face to face bullying, So having it on
an internet text doesn't worry, especially when you start talking
about the First Amendment, which is completely misinterpreted for this specifically. Yeah,
(18:34):
and and there are so many case studies are examples
that were given in researching this, and I know we've
talked about them before, but where women would you know,
be like, I'm being cyber's doctor, this is what's happening
to me, And they would have to explain the technology,
like they would have to do this whole extra step,
and then kind of having yet this amus like are
you sure this is athic response? Can't you just delete it? Yeah?
(18:59):
And this isn't in fluid the victim blaming that is
associated with all of this, So immediately, if you have
a sexy picture, you can credibility goes out the window. Yeah. Yeah,
So the technology available and the level of data collection
that happens on the Internet just at large has played
into these high numbers of cyberstalking that are yes, continuously
(19:20):
going up. So on top of all the things we've
talked about with phone, there's also cyberstalking online and that
that can involve similar thingies like tracking online and selling
tracking apps on someone's laptop, and also yeah, access to cameras,
sending unsolicited or threatening messages, overwhelming a target of cyberstalkings,
chat channels with messages, starting online rumors, or sharing videos
(19:42):
or pictures edited or not without consent, like revenge porn, blackmailing,
setting up websites that host stories that may be true
are not about the person breaking into online accounts to
pose as a person and ruin their reputation, spy where
um oh, and even like hidden cameras in people's homes
with some audio capabilities. Things like that. All of this
(20:05):
usually takes place over time, and it is a very
very scary experience that is yes, often dismissed. Cyberstalking can
result in negative outcomes like trouble sleeping, hyper vigilance, nightmares,
high levels of stress, trouble eating, feelings of loss of
control and safety, feelings of helplessness, fear and isolation, things
(20:25):
like that. Yeah, there's so many things. So online dating
has also played into this, which sucks because a part
of dating could be sending sexy backs, messages, are videos.
I've never done that. Part of this is because I
worked in social worka I knew what was happening. But
and since at least of the US is fifty four
million single people have tried online dating, there's a lot
(20:49):
for would be cyber stokers to mind from. And thanks
to the fact we're constantly tied to our phone just
I am, computers and other technology, there are so many
avenues for us to be victim mind and again turn
things but depend on into sources of fear and harassment.
And yeah, when it's on, when they have one picture,
it doesn't even matter, it can be there for it's
(21:10):
there forever. Like I remember having to show a kid
who had been sending pics of herself to a boy,
which I was like, this is a huge sake, is
gonna come back by you if you're not careful. And
also the fact that you're sending a picture of yourself.
It can actually be considered child porn other story, but
having to show her that I could go back and
pull it up for her and she was kind of like, oh,
(21:32):
so definitely it doesn't disappear. Yeah, um, And and it
is really really unfortunate because if we're not looking to
fear monger or anything, just something you should be aware of.
And it sucks. It does because you shouldn't have to
worry about that. If you're dating online and you do
want to send the singing picture, it is extremely unfortunate
(21:55):
that that is something we have to worry about. And yeah,
a lot of people, especially people who were like got
the flooded of channels or whatever, they would just talk
about how like every notification they'd get on their phone
would just send this fear fear through them. And it
is something we depend on. It is something that a
lot of us used for all kinds of like fun things,
(22:18):
so to have it turned into that. So some experts
breakdown cyberstalking into types. One of the most common is
email cyberstalking. This can involve trying to fix a relationship,
start a relationship, threatening or traumatizing through unsolicited messages sending
viruses or flooding someone's inbox. Um. Then there's internet cyberstalking
(22:40):
with the goal of slandering are threatening the victim. This
can involve breaking into accounts, spoofing, sending pornographic images, and
using spyware. Doxing can fall under this to posting private information,
posing as the victim and asking strangers for sexual activity,
or building entire websites yes, with the intent of inviting
(23:01):
strangers to degrade and her ask the victim. Victims have
reported strangers showing up at their door a place of
expecting sex. In one case, over one thousand people showed
up at his home. But then there are computer cyber stalkers,
stalkers who control the victims computer, which is also terrifying.
(23:24):
Also terrifying. UM, So we do have some some advice,
but first we're gonna pause for one more gup for
a word fromer sponsor and we're back. Thank you sponsor. So,
(23:48):
if you suspect or have confirmed you are the target
of cyberstalking, organizations have some steps and advice to take,
which is further complicated because a lot of it's online.
So again, if you have already looked this up, it
can be something frightening or perhaps not even possible on
your home devices. Here's what Marshall recommends. Trust your instincts
(24:09):
and exercise caution if you have an abuser who is
good with technology, So if you notice things like difficulty
turning off phone, or if it takes longer than normal
and unexplained increase in your data bill and increase in
battery changage, it could be a spyware app. Experts also
suggest checking to see if your phone is rooted or
jail broken. Backing up your phone is also a good idea.
(24:32):
All of this is with the caveat that a salcer
abuser may be able to see what you're doing, so
you have to take that into account and make sure
you're doing what is best for you and your particular situation.
On the security questions, don't answer with something guessable, answer
with something weird. I've been doing this for years. Works
for me as far as I know right, have a
(24:54):
safety plan in place. Organizations like RAIN or the National
Sexual Assault Hotline can help with this, and some have
quick clothes features for laptops. I know. There's been a
lot of features that allow for that, and also features
that could ask for help, but it looks like you're
talking to a friend. You can also seek out a
safer computer at a public place if you think yours
might be compromised. Um, and this is an option for you. Yeah,
(25:18):
create new email accounts. Look at the settings in your phone,
stuff like security, GPS, changing passwords and pin numbers. When
I lost my phone that it was like, over several days,
I kept thinking of other things I had to change
my password on, Like oh yeah, that one too. Oh yeah,
so yeah. Use a corded phone for a more private conversation. Again,
(25:40):
if this is something you have access to, um baby,
monitors can be listening in on as well. UM get
a new or donated phone. Some crisis centers, like we said,
provide these if possible. Learn more about policies of agencies
and companies when it comes to publishing online data. We
talked about options like delete me in a recent episode
with Bridget that can help you find and delete public information.
(26:02):
Get a private mailbox for communications you want to keep private,
and covering your webcam with h as any does removable tape.
If yours doesn't have the picture that allows you to
just shut it off, just slide it on over. Yeah. Um,
they also recommended things like using a gender neutral password,
never giving out your password. So I know a lot
of us are guilty of never giving out personal information
(26:25):
to a site or online entity you don't trust. And
if you have children, instruct them on these security measures
to um, don't respond to an email from an unknown person,
regularly search your name to see what it comes up.
That takes a lot of courage, I know. But on
top of that, most organizations suggest keeping an incident log
of any communications with the cyber stalker. And yes, having
(26:48):
these conversations with children so they know how to stay
safe online, and something else that could help that. We
talked about a lot more data right now. The situation
is seriously understudied and misunderstood. Like as I was saying,
as we were going through this, I saw conflicting things
all over the first Yeah, I mean when it comes
(27:10):
to an anemone and the internet, it gives a lot
of free access and stuff like swatting does a whole
different level when you come to like Twitch and all
those things. And yeah, that's the other part is there's
more and more technology, things like Amazon on their legs,
I doing the sidewalk feature but that immediate was like nope,
because it shows for some reason wants you to share
(27:30):
with the strangers, and I feel like, hey, Amazon, that's dumb. Dumb.
Also things like Google, who have been accused repeatedly of
data mining, as well as having companies that are all
the time hacked, all of the credit card companies, all
of the credit overseeing companies, like they get all that
information and identities being sold because they have features like that.
(27:54):
We're not even talking about that as part of the
sobberstalking because yeah, that's easily accessible. We've known for a
long time if you go to white Pages and you
want to pay some money, you can get complete access
to home phone number address. You just have to pay
ten dollars a subscription, which is really really absurd and
quite quite alarming as in fact, so that doesn't even
(28:17):
include any of that. We're talking more about the personal level.
But when it comes to and we've talked about this
with bridget corporate responsibility and no one really really actually
dealing with that, that's a whole different conversation. It is.
It's it's another one of those things where so much
of the advice for giving in this is basically putting
(28:38):
the impetus on you and the responsibility on you to
be vigilant when you shouldn't have to be so concerned
that a company that you use got hacked right now, right,
and yeah, we shouldn't have to pay extra money for
buying a service that should have been already included in
the service that we're paying for, right just little self,
(29:01):
do this a little poppy well, listeners, As always, we
would love to hear from you. You can email us
at Steffie your mom Stuff, I hurt me dot com.
You can find us on Instagram at steff I Never
Told You, are on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks
as always to our super producer Christina, Thank you, and
(29:21):
thanks to you for listening Stuff I Never Told You
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